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Reforming the University: Larry Arnn at ISI’s American Politics Summit — Transcript

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0:00Hello, I'm Daniel McCarthy, vice
0:02president for the collegiate network at
0:03ISI and also the editor of Modern Age.
0:06Joining me tonight is the great and
0:08estimable Larry Arm, who is the
0:10president of Hillsdale College, which of
0:12course uh is the uh college which is
0:15responsible for the formation of ISI's
0:16own president, Johnny Burka. So that by
0:19itself would be a great claim to fame.
0:20So welcome Dr. Arin. Yeah, thank you.
0:23Very good to be with you. So, Hillsdale
0:25College is in a category of its own and
0:27it has gone from strength to strength
0:29under your leadership. I was curious
0:31though, what prospects do you see for
0:32the rest of American higher education?
0:34Can it be redeemed? Can it be restored?
0:37Of course, it can be redeemed and
0:38restored. A college colleges are two and
0:42a half millennia old. The need for them
0:45won't go away. It's very hard to fix
0:47them and it'll take a long time. Uh the
0:49reason is uh the one big sticky point is
0:55uh graduate degrees is what you need to
0:58teach in a college and the graduate
1:00schools are a mess. So the quantity like
1:03if you could pass a law that all the
1:06colleges need to be decent tomorrow
1:09there wouldn't be anybody who knew what
1:10that meant to teach and there were not
1:11enough people. But yeah there's there
1:14exciting things happening in K12. Uh my
1:17own view about what the government
1:18should do is decentralize it. Uh there's
1:20too much control in the middle. That's
1:24especially wrong in education because
1:27learning happens in classrooms. You
1:28should have authority and resources near
1:30them. And if you do that, there'll be uh
1:34certainly K12 there could be a
1:36revolution pretty soon. But uh in higher
1:40ed, there will be a steady improvement I
1:42think. So you've already half
1:44anticipated my next question. And so
1:46Hillsdale is rather unusual. There's
1:47Hillsdale, Grove City, a handful of
1:49others perhaps in taking no federal
1:51funds whatsoever. And so I was curious,
1:53is there a role for the federal
1:54government, especially now that there
1:56may be a better administration coming
1:58in? Is there a role for the federal
2:00government in restoring higher education
2:01in America? Yeah. Well, there there is
2:04because uh first of all, the Department
2:05of Education is there and they're not
2:07likely to get rid of it. Uh it could be
2:10a force for this decentralization that
2:12I've spoke of. Uh it should encourage
2:15states, you know, the way the federal
2:17government works is what there are close
2:20to three million federal employees and
2:23close to 20 million state employees and
2:26through its spending power, the federal
2:28government tells them what to do a lot.
2:31Well, what if there was uh encouragement
2:34to states to start charter schools and
2:38private vouchers and stuff like that?
2:40That would be very healthy. And in
2:43higher ed uh you know they they're
2:46starting these centers. Some states are
2:49starting centers where they teach
2:52sanity. There's some good ones few and
2:56uh there should be more of that. So a
2:58couple of our founding fathers I think
2:59maybe Jefferson and Madison um thought
3:02about the idea of a national university
3:04sponsored by the federal government.
3:05Would that be a good idea? Uh no no. Uh
3:09well it's I have written about that.
3:11That's a very interesting thing. I sort
3:14of modeled a graduate school that we
3:16have at Hillsdale on that idea. Uh and
3:19they had a curriculum for it and you
3:21know the beginnings of one and they had
3:23some really neat neat ideas and George
3:26Washington left his largest bequest
3:29outside his family to support that
3:32thing. And then George Washington and
3:34and uh Thomas Jefferson and James
3:38Madison and James Monroe all tried to do
3:42it and they didn't get it done. Uh as a
3:45matter of fact, James Madison was
3:47instructed by the chairman of a
3:49committee by by the name of Mi Mitchell.
3:51I remember from Kentucky that no
3:54President Madison, you can't do this.
3:57The Constitution that you wrote does not
3:59permit it.
4:02I've always thought that was funny. But
4:04they they had the idea that uh at the
4:07top
4:08level there's some stuff you need to
4:11know to be a statesman in America and we
4:13should have a place where you learn that
4:15and uh that is that is a very good idea.
4:18I'm interested to know about the
4:20response of Hillsdale's peers or at
4:22least competitors to your success. Do
4:25you find that uh other colleges and
4:27universities are starting to emulate
4:28what Hillsdale does or do you see that
4:30they are more uh perhaps opposed to you,
4:32critical or or do they just ignore
4:35Hillsdale? All three.
4:38Um we don't really
4:41have I a lot of our kids go to uh
4:44graduate and go to top graduate schools
4:47in Ivy League and other places and
4:49professional schools and medical schools
4:51and they seem friendly to them. Uh and
4:54then
4:56uh you know colleges it's it's not the
4:59custom in our world to beat each other
5:02up institutionally a lot. I may have
5:05been more guilty of it than anybody. Uh
5:08and then there are a procession of
5:10people who come through Hillsdale
5:11College saying how do you do this? And I
5:14got a letter this morning from somebody
5:16and they want to come and visit
5:18and te talk to us. What do you do? And
5:22uh yeah and the private college world is
5:25very troubled now lot you know their
5:28bankruptcies and uh going to be more I
5:32think and so a lot of them are very fine
5:35people and they're trying to figure out
5:36how to save themselves. Do they consult
5:39with you often on how they can do that?
5:41Yeah, it's uh yeah, like you know,
5:45several times a year we get deputations
5:47from this place or that and we're in an
5:50athletic conference and uh I helped to
5:54form it with some others and they're all
5:57good people, private Christian colleges,
6:00and some of them are in trouble and I
6:03have reason to talk with them regularly
6:05and it's, you know, it's a tall order.
6:09it uh
6:11the the a private college gets a
6:16substantial percentage of its money from
6:19the government. Mhm. And the government
6:21brings rules, hundreds of pages of rules
6:24and uh they require that you arrange
6:28your staff in certain ways so that you
6:30have people who are you're paying them
6:32but they're really working for them. And
6:35so that's awkward and it I've never
6:38worked in that situation in my life, but
6:41I imagine it complicates the management
6:43of a place quite a bit.
6:45Uh and you know it it changes
6:50uh there there are lots of colleges that
6:52get 80 or 90% of their total revenues
6:54from student tuition, room and board.
6:57And a lot of those places half to 70% of
7:00that actually is coming from the
7:02government. Mhm. And so that means that
7:05you and they're trying to make budget
7:07and if they could just get 40 more kids.
7:11I hear that that particular number comes
7:13up if we we we need 40 more kids and we
7:17can balance our budget and that means
7:19that then you're looking at the kids as
7:22a revenue stream and it changes your
7:25relation to them. I think and I in some
7:27cases I've seen it where you're
7:30reluctant to flunk them out or make it
7:34difficult and that's a that's a terrible
7:38thing. It means that there's a
7:40misalignment here that's serious and I
7:44think the government has a lot to do
7:45with that. There's a striking difference
7:47between on the one hand these
7:49institutions that take federal money and
7:51therefore are subject to many more
7:54federal restrictions uh including uh DEI
7:57requirements and any number of other um
7:59uh supposedly civil rights requirements.
8:01Uh on the one hand you have that
8:03situation but Hillsdale which is a
8:05totally free institution. It does not
8:07depend on federal money. It has a in
8:09fact much better um history of civil
8:13liberties and civil rights. uh civil
8:15rights in particular. Um it's it's
8:17always been a u a free campus. It's
8:20always been a campus which has been
8:21colorblind and um tell us a little bit
8:23about that history. Well, I've only had
8:26one job in a college in my life and I uh
8:29took the
8:30job because I found out about that. I uh
8:34I I admired Abraham Lincoln very much
8:38and there were several people at our
8:40college who got to know him and were
8:43important in his cause. We were an
8:45abolitionist college. The platform that
8:48Abraham Lincoln was elected president
8:50on, the first draft of it was written in
8:52a building that stands on our campus
8:54today. And we had more young men fight
8:57in the Civil War than any non-military
9:00college excepting Yale. And you know,
9:03compare it to the University of
9:04Michigan, which a little older than we
9:06are and was bigger at the time. They had
9:09under a hundred and we had more than
9:11500. Wow. All the boys went and that was
9:14and you know, we didn't it's never been
9:16a military college. We still have a lot
9:18of military service coming out of our
9:21place. And they just uh loved freedom
9:24and they loved their country and they
9:27had an education and they rallied to the
9:30cause. And when I learned that I and
9:32then I read the founding document of the
9:33college which was written in 1844 and is
9:36a very beautiful document and I thought
9:38to myself, huh, maybe there's a way to
9:41run that kind of railroad. So there's a
9:44prominent statue of Frederick Douglas on
9:46campus and I know that Douglas has a
9:48connection with Hillsdale, doesn't he?
9:50Spoke on the campus twice. Uh, first
9:53time in 1863, the second time after the
9:55war.
9:57uh in
10:001863 if uh he he had to be careful where
10:04he went because he was an annoyance to
10:07the Confederacy and they had people
10:09looking for him to kidnap him and take
10:11him back into slavery and that was a big
10:13trade in those days. And uh when I got
10:17to the college I knew about that. I
10:19admire Frederick Le very much. And I
10:22said to the college historian, I said,
10:24"Uh, we need a copy of his speech that
10:28he gave on the campus." And he says, "It
10:31doesn't exist." And I said, "Bound to
10:34you looked hard enough." You know, I
10:36worked for Martin Gilbert doing the
10:38church biography. If you haven't found
10:40it, it means you haven't looked hard
10:41enough. And about six months later, he
10:44showed up with it. He did find it. It's
10:46called Truth and Error and it's about
10:48slavery. It's a lovely speech. He was a
10:51very interesting man. So, America has a
10:54birthday coming up in 2026. We will be
10:56celebrating the 250th anniversary of the
10:59Declaration of Independence, uh the War
11:01of Independence and the American
11:02Founding. Uh you wrote a book about a
11:04dozen years ago called The Founders Key.
11:06And I'm curious what you'd like to see
11:08emphasized, especially in terms of the
11:11history and the philosophy of the
11:12American founding in these birthday
11:14celebrations two years from now. Well, I
11:16think uh the celebration is probably
11:18going to be fullthroatated now because
11:19there's been a recent election. I think
11:22it would not have been before that. Uh I
11:25think uh people people need to read it.
11:28It's very beautiful. uh it is the final
11:31cause to use
11:34that classic logical term of the United
11:37States. is the reason it exists and it
11:41also describes inside itself the formal
11:44cause which comes later the the
11:48constitution they lay out uh in the
11:52declaration of independence in their
11:54criticisms of the king what would be the
11:57main features of a proper constitution
11:59and they are separation of powers and
12:01consent of the govern representation
12:04uh and and you know the constitution is
12:07described in that very beautiful
12:09document and of course the beginning and
12:11the end of it are uh written in the most
12:15lovely timeless language.
12:18Uh it's about eternal things and the
12:22things we will do here now to serve them
12:26and our freedom. I wanted to ask you
12:29about your own intellectual trajectory.
12:31So you're originally from Arkansas. I'm
12:32originally from Missouri myself. I'm
12:34curious uh what was it like growing up
12:36in Arkansas and what led you onto the
12:38path that has ultimately uh ended in or
12:41you know issued in uh being the
12:42president of Hillsdale College and
12:44leading Hillsdale College from strength
12:45to strength. Well, people from Arkansas
12:47are proud of it and they're right to be.
12:50I I'm a big admirer of the current
12:52governor of Arkansas, Sarah Sanders, and
12:55she talked I'm older than she is, but
12:57she talked to me like my mother did. I
12:59went to her office not long ago and she
13:01said, "I was wondering when you were
13:03going to show up here." Uh, Arkansas's,
13:06you know, I grew up in Pocahontas,
13:07Arkansas, and that's just idealic. It
13:10uh, you know, we we had a river, we were
13:13on it a lot, we had hills, we climbed
13:17them, uh, we shot rats in the city dump.
13:21So, tremendous. Best hunting I ever did.
13:23And,
13:24uh, uh, so it's it was like that. And
13:28then uh we had a grammar teacher and two
13:32math teachers in my school and they were
13:36awesome. Uh I can diagram an English
13:39sentence and uh cuz I had to stand and
13:42do it on the board and uh so that was
13:45great. I enjoyed that very much. And
13:48uh later I learned what learning really
13:51is. Uh that happened in undergraduate
13:54school. I try to get out of it. But
13:57there was a mandatory course in
13:59political thought and it was taught by a
14:02great man who's who's friend of mine
14:05today. Uh and we read Plato's Republic
14:09and I sort of saw for the first
14:12time what would be the most important
14:15things to know and it changed a lot of
14:18things about me. Didn't go to law
14:20school. uh almost almost did uh always
14:24wanted to when I was a boy and I just
14:27thought I have to find out more about
14:29this and uh that's indirectly he want
14:32you and I know each other you are a
14:34student of the great Harry Jaffa and I
14:37was curious how did you first learn
14:38about Jaffa and decide that you wanted
14:40to take his classes well this man who
14:42was my teacher in undergraduate school
14:44his name is Jeffrey Wallen he was a
14:46student of professor Jeff and uh I
14:50followed went back to his office. Uh, I
14:53was actually, you know, I was like most
14:56young men, cocky and unreasonable and
15:00thought I knew everything. And it took
15:02about 3 weeks of him wiping the floor
15:04with me and reading a beautiful passage
15:06in book one of of the
15:10republic and I had a revelation and I
15:13followed him back to his office and
15:14said, "I need to know more about this."
15:17And he said, "Well, you have another
15:18semester." I said, 'I wonder if it'll
15:21take longer than that. And he said,
15:25uh, it will. He said, 'You'll have to
15:28keep it up. And I said,
15:31uh, I might go to graduate school. Is
15:34that where you learned this? And he
15:36said, you're going to law school.
15:38Everybody knows that. I was in some
15:40fancy ones. And, uh, I said, well,
15:44maybe. And I sort of had to talk him
15:47into it. You know, there's a thing I
15:49understand it better now. Uh he did we
15:53didn't know each other very well. We do
15:55now. And uh a professor might be
15:59embarrassed to send a student to his
16:02teacher cuz what if the kid's useless?
16:05Uh and so at first he I I recall he was
16:09a little reluctant. He tried to get me
16:12to consider other options. Uh, and uh, I
16:17kept saying, "Is this the best?" And
16:20he'd say, "Well, yes." And I'd say, "And
16:22that particular man was a very great
16:25teacher."
16:27Uh, and but this one's good. And I'd
16:30say, "Well, I'd want to go to the best
16:32one." I was too cocky, you know. He
16:34said, "What if you don't get in?" I
16:35said, "I will." And I did. And, uh,
16:38that's how all that happened. I uh he
16:40he's he lives in uh outside DC now. Uh
16:45he's not a teacher anymore and I'd like
16:48to say he inherited some money and went
16:50to seed because his his uh he's a very
16:53good man but and a friend but his uh
16:59uh his calling was to be a teacher. He
17:02is splendid teacher and he's done some
17:05teaching for Hillsdale College. But uh
17:09yeah, you know those people like that I
17:11mean you have them too right isi that's
17:14part of what it's about. Uh you know do
17:19a very good job teaching some lovely
17:22things and see who perks up and notices
17:26and uh so that was a benefit that came
17:28to me and I'm grateful for it. Did you
17:31find that it was uh stressful taking
17:32classes with Harry Jaffa? Could he be
17:34very forceful in in class? And was it uh
17:37were students afraid to challenge him or
17:38question him? No, he wasn't like that at
17:41all. He was a he he actually he was a
17:43very belligerent man.
17:45Um he uh was not uh with the students is
17:51a way. He was a
17:54uh he was an interesting man. He he uh
17:58was, you know, he fought with all kinds
17:59of people, including many conservatives,
18:02and he was fierce in those fights. Uh
18:05with us, what he was like was the
18:08challenge was to get him to
18:11explain cuz uh one of my theories cuz I
18:14I was around him
18:16for how long? 1974 until 2000 when I
18:20came to the college. Uh and he died
18:24sometime after 2000. So I had to do with
18:26him after that. But I was around him a
18:28lot for 26 years. And uh the challen I I
18:34think he was uh when he became excited
18:37when he became interested deeply
18:39interested and when he was dealing with
18:42the central things he was as good a
18:44lecturer as I ever saw. Uh he was not a
18:49systematic organized get through the
18:52material kind of teacher. And so you had
18:55to
18:57uh you had to work him, had to be
19:01pouncing, answering questions, and
19:04sometimes he wouldn't answer. And if you
19:06kept at it, you would get your answer.
19:09Uh I rode a
19:10bicycle probably 20,000 miles because he
19:13was a bicycle racer. And uh and so I
19:18thought, I'm going to learn everything
19:19this guy's got to teach. So, I took it
19:22up and I rode bicycles for a long time.
19:24I raced them a little. I was just like I
19:26was at a high school athlete. I was good
19:29enough to do it, loved to do it, not
19:31good enough to really, you know, really
19:33do it. And uh so yeah he he he was uh
19:37and you know he I remember a class one
19:41time this happened would happen several
19:44times something would come like he liked
19:49uh liberal students to attack him and he
19:54was very good at that and he was gentle
19:56with them but uh but he was profound and
20:01so once he got going and the class was
20:04supposed to be over at
20:064:30 and it was over at 6:00 and nobody
20:11noticed and uh came out and it was dark
20:15and he
20:16uh explained what it is that a human
20:19being can do that a dog cannot and it's
20:23you know I can give that explanation
20:24today but I heard him do it more than
20:26once but that was one of his best things
20:28uh and like he he's you know as you know
20:32masterful teacher
20:35uh the fundamentals are so well known to
20:39them that they can apply them and
20:42simplify them and uh that's magical when
20:46you get to hear that and great teachers
20:48we have several at Hills we have many at
20:50Hillsdale College who can do that and
20:52the kids follow them around like puppy
20:55dogs hoping they'll say something and uh
20:59yeah so Professor Jaffa was like that
21:01you also worked very closely with Sir
21:03Martin Gilbert and uh completed the uh
21:06Churchill u biography and uh worked on
21:09the documents um including six volumes
21:11of them as I as if I recall correctly.
21:14Um I'm curious what lessons do you think
21:16today's leaders and perhaps in
21:17particular uh the newly elected
21:19president should take from the example
21:21of Winston Churchill?
21:23Uh well he's
21:25uh Donald Trump has the root of the
21:27matter in him as regards Churchill. Uh
21:31what I would say to uh anybody is if you
21:35want to cultivate prudence, Aristotle
21:38says you can learn that best from the
21:40people who have the reputation for it.
21:43And and then he names Pericles as the
21:45best
21:46example. Uh you should read Winston
21:49Churchill. He wrote over 40 books. He
21:52wrote 8,000 pages of speeches himself,
21:55over a thousand published articles. and
21:59they are riveting and they are a
22:00reservoir of political wisdom. Uh the
22:04big things in Churchill's life uh
22:06Churchill's life is tragic as well as
22:10glorious as all political lives are by
22:12the way. When he was a young man he set
22:16out to prevent socialism and big
22:19wars and it was his fate to be unable he
22:22did try to prevent both world wars. uh
22:26it was his fate to lead effectively and
22:31to
22:32disastrous diminishment of his country
22:35just better than being beat by the
22:37Nazis. Uh and then socialism followed
22:41but he warned about it in beautiful
22:43language all the time. And uh that's one
22:46thing we t
22:49uh Republican statesmen who like Winston
22:54Churchill don't understand that thing
22:56about caution about war and Donald Trump
23:01does. Also a big thing with Churchill
23:04was uh he he thought the British people
23:08were the right ones because they had a
23:11right to decide the fate of the nation.
23:15and he thought they'd probably do a
23:17better job than anybody else. And so he
23:19was an explainer. He uh uh sometimes
23:24politicians, I think of two recent
23:27presidents,
23:28uh they become imperative with the
23:32American people. They wag their figure
23:34finger and tell you how it's going to
23:36be, how you ought to be, right?
23:38Churchill was not given to that. uh he
23:42it's generous to explain to put the
23:46argument together so that people can
23:48follow it right and that's a that's an
23:51art that's first of all it's not easy
23:55but Churchill cultivated that art he
23:57worked at it and uh you know he he got
24:01into a place
24:04where he was the one to lead in the
24:07worst crisis in British history and he
24:10got him through it and that's because of
24:13his nature and his character and the way
24:14he built it. So in addition to leading
24:16Hillsdale College, you also teach and
24:19I'm curious when you're teaching
24:20Aristotle for example, um are you making
24:22new discoveries each time you do so or
24:24are you finding new angles on the
24:26material? They you know uh a classroom
24:29uh nothing in education by the way is
24:32something that one person does to
24:34somebody else. It won't work. uh what
24:38you know is irrelevant unless they are
24:42focused with their whole being on the
24:44thing. And we're blessed at Hillsdale
24:47College. The kids are smart and very
24:48beautiful. It's hard to get in. You got
24:50to sign the honor
24:51code. And so now you're with a bunch of
24:55fellow human beings reading this thing
24:58with attention and what everybody says
25:01is meaningful, even if it's wrong. and
25:04uh and you never uh I never teach
25:08anything that uh I don't see it aresh
25:13and better and sometimes significant
25:16points uh it's been revealed to me I can
25:19remember 400 years ago professor Jaffa I
25:23was learning Greek which I've mostly
25:24forgotten now to my shrin but I knew
25:27knew it a bit and there's a word in
25:30Greek cray and
25:32uh
25:34uh he he translated the word as good
25:39and I said doesn't that mean necessary
25:42it's just a vocabulary thing right he
25:45said oh that's a brilliant insight now I
25:49didn't know why it was at the time but I
25:52I thought about it a long time and I see
25:54the good is also the necessary and uh so
25:58yeah things like that happen in you know
26:00every it's uh
26:02I I teach uh all afternoon Mondays
26:05makeup classes on Friday because I have
26:07to do it in one sitting because I have
26:09this job and uh uh the time flies and uh
26:17if they yawn I don't like it and I give
26:19them coffee and cookies or else I throw
26:21something at them. But they seldom do
26:24and uh it's cuz it's exciting, it's fun.
26:28Do the students uh change over time? Do
26:30you find that uh generation Z is
26:32different from earlier generations or is
26:34there a uh kind of human nature that
26:37comes through in all students that is
26:38always the latter very much. Uh we you
26:42know we notice little differences. Um
26:46but
26:47uh any successful class is an
26:51achievement of everyone in it. And so
26:54when you produce that with them, it's
26:58always the same. You know, they think I
27:01I I once made a mistake. Uh we have a
27:05constitution course and we read some
27:06John
27:07Calhoun and I on my syllabus I made a
27:10mistake and I assigned the entire
27:13disposition on government to them. That
27:15was really stupid. and darned if they
27:18didn't read it. And I figured that out
27:20and I apologized to him and I said,
27:22"Okay, we're going to spend a week on
27:24this." And in the course of that week
27:27there, this particular classroom has
27:30four going around the room boards to
27:33write
27:34on. And we filled up the whole all the
27:37boards with an account of John C.
27:41Calhoun and the disc was his own
27:43government.
27:44And we when we did it and we we all took
27:48great and you know everybody helped you
27:50know what does this mean what does that
27:51mean you know what's is this important
27:53is that important you know and at the
27:56end we took great gain momentum and you
28:00know I don't even like John Calhoun by
28:02the way although I think he's formidable
28:04and uh and
28:05interesting and and I remember when the
28:08class ended on a Friday uh uh so we
28:14equivalent of two weeks, right? Because
28:15I teach whole weeks in one sitting and I
28:18did an extra class on a Friday. And we
28:22had it all up there and uh and we sat in
28:26silence for a
28:28minute. I said,
28:31"Okay, have we got that?" And three or
28:34four of them said, "That's really good."
28:38See, we did that together. And it starts
28:40with a mistake by me. Uh it's good for
28:43me to do it too cuz I read that book
28:46with better attention than I ever had.
28:49Calhoun writes
28:51uh
28:53uh paraphrase, it would be impestous to
28:56think that God would give us the gift of
28:59natural science and permit us to use it
29:02for ill. Now I think that's a
29:06misunderstanding of God and the
29:08universe. And I discovered that sense
29:11and saw its importance because we went
29:13through all that. Wonderful. So, uh I
29:16know you have a long background with
29:18ISI. I think you were a Richard Weaver
29:20fellow. Um what does ISI mean to you
29:22especially today in the 21st century?
29:24Well, I eyesize of course run by my kid
29:26Johnny and uh he's doing a good job and
29:31uh it is a it's a splendid idea. Uh and
29:37it helped me go to graduate school. I
29:39serve on its board. Uh I'm too busy to
29:43serve on board so I serve on the ones
29:45where I have to and this is one of them.
29:48And uh first Chris Long and then Thomas
29:51Lynch who's now the chairman of the
29:52board. They both said to me, "You have
29:54to do this. We gave you money in
29:56graduate school." So, I'm conscripted.
29:58But I find it rewarding. And its idea,
30:01one of its ideas is, cuz see, I I I very
30:05much believe this, by the
30:09way, you can't teach everybody
30:12everything. And you can't teach
30:14everybody to the same depth. But if you
30:17find the right people
30:20uh and help them learn because you don't
30:23really teach them either they learn you
30:25help
30:26them then they will reach many people
30:30and uh so that's the idea behind ISI and
30:33it's a good idea. Great. Well thank you
30:35very much Dr. on. I very much enjoyed
30:37this.

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