Rajdeep Sardesai Hosts State Vs Street Debate: Why Disallow CJP's Tiranga March? | S.I.R Protests — Transcript

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1. 0:00Okay, let me widen this with questions
2. 0:02our face-off. Why disallow the cockroach
3. 0:05Janata Party's Tiranga Yatra is the
4. 0:07question of the day.
5. 0:09Are these protests hurting the
6. 0:11government's image particularly when
7. 0:12young people get detained? And the
8. 0:14question I keep asking, is there an end
9. 0:17game at the moment? If so, what is it?
10. 0:19Sanjiv Verma, the national spokesperson
11. 0:21of the BJP is joining me. Anish Gawande
12. 0:25of the NCP SP. It was from Anish's house
13. 0:27that Abhijit Dipke was detained. Uh
14. 0:31Sanjiv Verma, let's be very clear.
15. 0:34Do you believe that all of this that is
16. 0:36happening is damaging the government's
17. 0:38image somewhere? That if you are so
18. 0:40strong, if you have no fear, what why
19. 0:44detain, arrest, lathi charge the young?
20. 0:47Those optics, are they looking good?
21. 0:52>> Rajdeep, Abhijit Dipke had asked
22. 0:55for a permission for Jantar Mantar 1.0
23. 0:59in Delhi in July.
24. 1:02That permission was given.
25. 1:03Abhijit Dipke asked for permission at
26. 1:05Shivaji Park on the 2nd of October on
27. 1:08Gandhi Jayanti. That permission was
28. 1:10given. Abhijit Dipke asked for
29. 1:13permission that his CJP
30. 1:15colleagues should be allowed to protest
31. 1:16at Mumbai's Azad Maidan today. That
32. 1:19permission was given. Of course, yes.
33. 1:21It's a different matter that there were
34. 1:22hardly 25 to 30 people.
35. 1:25Uh and you know, uh the public has
36. 1:27completely abandoned the CJP in Mumbai.
37. 1:29That's not the
38. 1:30The moot point IS THIS.
39. 1:32WE ARE NOT A BANANA REPUBLIC.
40. 1:34WE ARE RUN BY THE LAW OF THE LAND. BE IT
41. 1:36ABHIJIT DIPKE, ASHUTOSH RANKA, Saurabh
42. 1:38Das, nobody is above the law of the
43. 1:40land. Once Section 163 of the BNS S is
44. 1:44in place,
45. 1:45and Dipke, Das, and Ranka have signed a
46. 1:49bail bond saying that they will not
47. 1:51breach peace, it is incumbent upon them
48. 1:54to not breach the provisions of their
49. 1:57bail bond which they
50. 1:58>> How how is it breaching peace, ma'am?
51. 2:00They're just clarify How is it breaching
52. 2:02peace if he wants to do a Tiranga March?
53. 2:06How does that breach peace?
54. 2:09>> Rajdeep ji, mujhe laga aaj aap mere ko
55. 2:10at least 1 minute bolne denge without
56. 2:12interjecting, but let me answer that. I
57. 2:13knew you would ask me this question.
58. 2:15You're so predictable. BUT GOOD YOU
59. 2:17ASKED ME THIS.
60. 2:19Jantar Mantar 1.0
61. 2:21The CP HAD PROMISED ASSURED THE DELHI
62. 2:25police no incendiary slogans, no
63. 2:28political activity, no caste-based
64. 2:31slogans will be raised. And social media
65. 2:34is viral with these videos, Rajdeep.
66. 2:37Modi margaya, hi hi. AMIT SHAH MARGAYA,
67. 2:39HI HI. Modi ki terhvi par samosa
68. 2:42bantenge. UMAR KHALID ZINDABAD. SHARJEEL
69. 2:45IMAM ZINDABAD. SANSAD BHAVAN KO AAG LAGA
70. 2:47DO. SAMVIDHAN KO AAG LAGA DO. I want to
71. 2:50ask Rajdeep Sardesai Samvidhan ko aag
72. 2:53laga do is a peaceful slogan?
73. 2:55Modi margaya, hi hi is a peaceful
74. 2:57slogan?
75. 2:58>> I haven't I haven't heard Abhijit Dipke
76. 3:00give any of these slogans that you are
77. 3:02None of these slogans that you have put
78. 3:04on the TV channel today I've I have been
79. 3:06said by Abhijit Dipke. Have any of them
80. 3:09been said?
81. 3:11>> Listen.
82. 3:12When Abhijit Dipke is sharing stage with
83. 3:14Neha Bora, Yogendra Yadav, Shabana Azmi
84. 3:19and a whole lot of other Aam Aadmi Party
85. 3:21leaders like Kejriwal, Sisodia, what
86. 3:23have you. And these slogans are raised.
87. 3:26The Delhi Commissioner of Police, Mr.
88. 3:28Deepak Purohit
89. 3:29Again, another DCP, Mr. Sachin Sharma.
90. 3:32Tell Abhijit Dipke, tell Saurabh Das,
91. 3:34tell Ashutosh Ranka
92. 3:36please do not carry on with this protest
93. 3:39because we believe that there are
94. 3:41criminal elements who have infiltrated
95. 3:43the protest. What do these three people
96. 3:46say? Hum Aadhaar card authenticate nahi
97. 3:48karenge. Aapko karne nahi denge Aadhaar
98. 3:51card authenticate aur aapko jo ukhaadna
99. 3:54HAI UKHAAD LO.
100. 4:03>> OKAY.
101. 4:04>> I'm I'm neither deaf, dumb, or blind,
102. 4:07not yet. And I have full respect for
103. 4:10India's disabled, but
104. 4:12Anish Gawande, respond to what you're
105. 4:15hearing. Has the SJP lost its way? A
106. 4:18movement that claimed that it was coming
107. 4:20to represent the concerns of Gen Z,
108. 4:23examine irregularities, school course
109. 4:25with our own improved schools, has
110. 4:27suddenly moved now into a political
111. 4:29battle. And when you do that,
112. 4:31then are you losing your way? Was
113. 4:34Abhijit Dipke's protest today simply
114. 4:37spectacle politics? Let's get eyeballs
115. 4:39rather than really about the Tiranga
116. 4:41Yatra.
117. 4:44>> Rajdeep, you know I didn't want to come
118. 4:45on this show today, and the reason for
119. 4:47that was very simple.
120. 4:49It's because the pathetic moral
121. 4:52cowardice of a government that dares to
122. 4:55detain three of my friends twice over
123. 4:58the course of a week is on full display.
124. 5:01The pathetic moral cowardice of a
125. 5:03government that beats up young people,
126. 5:06chokes young women with their dupattas,
127. 5:09whacks and kicks young men and women on
128. 5:12their private parts is on full display.
129. 5:15Right? This is moral cowardice, and it
130. 5:18must be understood as such.
131. 5:20Whether you agree with this Tiranga
132. 5:22Yatra or not is irrelevant.
133. 5:24The fact that Abhijit was going alone,
134. 5:27that he told the police that he was
135. 5:29going alone, is important.
136. 5:32He was not violating 144 now 163.
137. 5:35When you go as a single individual onto
138. 5:37the streets with a tricolor on your
139. 5:39hand, under which law
140. 5:42is the government of the day putting you
141. 5:44behind bars,
142. 5:45taking you round and round in a police
143. 5:47van and detaining you.
144. 5:49Under what law is a government that says
145. 5:52Har Ghar Tiranga
146. 5:54preventing Har Sadak Tiranga from taking
147. 5:57place?
148. 5:58This is cowardice.
149. 5:59>> They say the apprehension of violence,
150. 6:02the apprehension that the BJP was going
151. 6:04to use this Tiranga Yatra perhaps to
152. 6:07incite violence.
153. 6:08>> Rajdeep, I would love to believe that
154. 6:11this government cares about violence.
155. 6:13But today it cannot be.
156. 6:15You have journalists pointing out
157. 6:17hecklers, people with sticks in their
158. 6:19hands not being apprehended by the same
159. 6:21police force that picks up innocent
160. 6:23people who are there with the tricolor.
161. 6:25A few days ago you saw the Hindu Kranti
162. 6:27Dal proudly claiming Ki Aaj Sham Ko
163. 6:30Humein Bail Mili Hai while Ashutosh and
164. 6:32Saurabh go to Tihar for 5 days. I mean,
165. 6:34the Bharatiya Janata Party has to ask
166. 6:37itself this question. The people of
167. 6:39India are watching.
168. 6:41This pathetic cowardice will no longer
169. 6:43fly, Rajdeep. And how do you allow it to
170. 6:45happen?
171. 6:46And I want to I want to just say one
172. 6:47thing here, right?
173. 6:49This protest has been Gandhian for a
174. 6:50reason.
175. 6:52You know, Gandhi marched alone and and
176. 6:54you will know this uh
177. 6:56because many of us know Ramdas Bhatkal
178. 6:59in Mumbai and I learned from him much
179. 7:00like many others in Mumbai have, but at
180. 7:03Noakhali, Gandhi marched alone.
181. 7:06When the British in 1940 engaged in
182. 7:09similar repression, he announced the
183. 7:11individual Satyagraha. And Acharya
184. 7:13Vinoba Bhave was the first Satyagrahi,
185. 7:15Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru was the second.
186. 7:17And so this regime will also face
187. 7:19similar protests.
188. 7:20>> But but July 20th you will recall,
189. 7:22Aneesh, July 20th turned violent. July
190. 7:2520th protest turned violent. So the
191. 7:27police will always use that as a
192. 7:29reference point.
193. 7:31>> And Rajdeep, can you tell me why those
194. 7:32protests on the 20th of July turned
195. 7:34violent? Why was CCTV cameras disabled?
196. 7:37Why was checking stopped at entry and
197. 7:39exit points? Why were barricades welded
198. 7:42into each other? Why has no action still
199. 7:44been taken against anybody who was
200. 7:46violent? And why has action not been
201. 7:48taken against the police officers who
202. 7:50were seen shoveling rods into the
203. 7:52private parts of young women? Rajdeep,
204. 7:55what an atrocious denial of
205. 7:57accountability by a shameless
206. 7:59government. Not
207. 8:00>> You
208. 8:01made very No, no, ma'am, you must
209. 8:03listen. You know, Sanju Just a minute.
210. 8:05Anish, I've heard you. I've heard you.
211. 8:07You made very strong points. You see,
212. 8:08Sanju Verma, we all want to listen to
213. 8:10each other. I want to listen to you. I
214. 8:11want to listen to Anish. You see, these
215. 8:13are very serious observation. Even what
216. 8:15has happened today. Today it seemed that
217. 8:17the traders of Connaught Place were
218. 8:19being used
219. 8:20to target perhaps the cockroach Janata
220. 8:23Party or
221. 8:25or people who wanted to march
222. 8:27peacefully. My problem is if this is
223. 8:29such a mighty government as it is,
224. 8:32right? What are you afraid of? What are
225. 8:35you afraid of? What can Abhijit Dipke do
226. 8:37to the mighty government of the BJP, the
227. 8:40largest party in the world? Why do you
228. 8:43need the police to then resort to these
229. 8:46repressive measures even though the
230. 8:47Supreme Court, Sanju Verma, had said
231. 8:49that they have the right to protest and
232. 8:51take out this march?
233. 8:53They did not High Court did not stop
234. 8:54them.
235. 8:56>> Rajdeep, I heard the lengthy question.
236. 8:58Rajdeep Sardesai has been trying since
237. 9:01May 2014. Rajdeep Sardesai kuch nahi kar
238. 9:04paye Modi sarkar
239. 9:05>> No, Rajdeep Sardesai, please don't
240. 9:06attack the messenger. Madam, I I you
241. 9:08know, I Please don't attack me. It's
242. 9:10unfair. I asked you a question. Reply to
243. 9:12it without bringing me into it. I'm not
244. 9:14involved. You can respond to Anish
245. 9:16Gawande.
246. 9:17>> You are not involved. NOW, DON'T GET
247. 9:19RATTLED BECAUSE YOU KNOW,
248. 9:20>> HE SAID MORAL COWARDICE. HE SAYS your
249. 9:22government is showing moral cowardice.
250. 9:23Respond.
251. 9:25>> Rajdeep, do not interject. I heard Anish
252. 9:28Gawande. I'm not hard of hearing. And
253. 9:31let me tell you when I called you WHEN I
254. 9:33CALLED YOU DEAF, DUMB, and mute TO THE
255. 9:35HARD REALITY, I was not being unfair to
256. 9:37the specially abled. That was a
257. 9:39metaphor. Please understand the
258. 9:40metaphor. THANK YOU. NOW, LET ME RESPOND
259. 9:43TO ANEES GAWANDE. WHAT IS MORAL
260. 9:45COWARDICE? MORAL COWARDICE IS WHEN
261. 9:48Abhijit Dipke says that he's bigger than
262. 9:51the law of the land. MORAL COWARDICE IS
263. 9:53WHEN RAHUL GANDHI HOLDS DK Shivakumar by
264. 9:57the scruff of his neck. Moral cowardice
265. 10:00is WHEN PRIYANKA VADRA SHOVES HER ELBOW
266. 10:03INTO THE BREAST AND STOMACH of a female
267. 10:05police constable. Moral cowardice is
268. 10:08when Saurabh Das and Ashutosh Ranka,
269. 10:10without an iota of proof, keep saying
270. 10:13that the Election Commission is a
271. 10:15criminal enterprise. Moral cowardice is
272. 10:17when ACP Vivek Bhagat is falsely accused
273. 10:22of molesting
274. 10:24a female journalist by showcasing an
275. 10:27AI-generated VIDEO. I WANT TO ASK one
276. 10:29question. Article 19, which gives the
277. 10:32right to protest. Article 19,
278. 10:35Kanhaiya, Abhijit Dipke, Saurabh Das,
279. 10:38Ashutosh Ranka, Prakash Raj, Prashant
280. 10:40Bhushan, in Bapu here. ACP Vivek Bhagat
281. 10:44of Delhi POLICE DOES NOT HAVE RIGHTS
282. 10:45UNDER ARTICLE 19.
283. 10:47>> MADAM, are you really seriously on this
284. 10:49show comparing the asymmetry of power
285. 10:51between the police with lathis and
286. 10:54citizens who are unarmed? Madam, you
287. 10:55have raised various questions. You have
288. 10:57accused Priyanka Gandhi Vadra and
289. 10:59others. All of these should be an
290. 11:00inquiry. You know, you're making these
291. 11:02but are you seriously comparing a police
292. 11:05which is well armed with unarmed
293. 11:06protesters? Is that a serious comparison
294. 11:08to make?
295. 11:10>> YOU KNOW, RAJDEEP, WHAT I DON'T
296. 11:11UNDERSTAND, when Anees was speaking, I
297. 11:13did not see you interjecting him even
298. 11:15once. So, let me tell Anees Gawande one
299. 11:18thing. Please, now.
300. 11:20Moral cowardice is when Sharad Pawar's
301. 11:23NCP loses its national party status in
302. 11:262023
303. 11:28and their spokesperson has the audacity
304. 11:31to lecture the Modi GOVERNMENT WHICH HAS
305. 11:34WON THREE LOK SABHA ELECTIONS IN A ROW.
306. 11:36>> THIS IS the problem, Rajdeep.
307. 11:37>> That Sharad Pawar's party did not even
308. 11:40get 22 SEATS, AND BJP HAD A STRIKE rate
309. 11:44of 91% in Maharashtra elections. But
310. 11:47Sharad Pawar's spokesperson sits here
311. 11:49and lectures on constitutional propriety
312. 11:51TO THE BJP. THAT IS MORAL COWARDICE. BUT
313. 11:54MY FINAL point
314. 11:55>> Isn't there a difference between
315. 11:56election results and what happens on the
316. 11:58street, ma'am?
317. 11:59>> Rajdeep, you have a great memory. YOU
318. 12:01HAVE A GREAT MEMORY.
319. 12:03And I'll say this to many off record, on
320. 12:05record, for whatever it is worth. In
321. 12:072022,
322. 12:08two incidents happened. A young
323. 12:11engineering student called Nikhil Bhamre
324. 12:14was picked up from his residence in
325. 12:16Nashik for simply sharing a meme on
326. 12:18Sharad Pawar. DARBARI MEDIA
327. 12:22AND A YOUNG MARATHI ACTRESS CALLED
328. 12:24KETAKI Chitale shared an innocuous meme
329. 12:26on Sharad Pawar. She had 22 FIRS AGAINST
330. 12:30HER. DARBARI MEDIA
331. 12:33AND MY FINAL POINT, YOU KNOW THIS VERY
332. 12:35WELL. THERE IS A CIVIL ENGINEER called
333. 12:37Anant Karmuse. He was picked up,
334. 12:40kidnapped, beaten, abducted by Jitendra
335. 12:44Awhad, the close confidant OF SHARAD
336. 12:46PAWAR.
337. 12:53>> OKAY.
338. 12:54YOU KNOW, THAT'S A
339. 12:55I TAKE YOUR POINT. THESE ARE all
340. 12:56whataboutry, but you know, Anish
341. 12:58Gawande, you want to respond? Anish
342. 13:00Gawande, you want to respond? The fact
343. 13:02at the end of the day, the one point
344. 13:04that the BJP keeps making, whatever you
345. 13:06want to do at the end of the day, do it
346. 13:07through the ballot.
347. 13:09You want If you believe that this
348. 13:12government has failed on fight them on
349. 13:14the ballot. By taking it to the streets,
350. 13:17you're actually trying to create
351. 13:18extra-constitutional methods to target
352. 13:21the Modi government. A final point.
353. 13:25>> The same Bharatiya Janata Party that
354. 13:27learned from Ram Manohar Lohia must
355. 13:29remember his famous saying.
356. 13:36The reason the streets are alive with
357. 13:39the voice of the people, Rajdeep, is
358. 13:41because, and I will say this purposely
359. 13:44so Sanju Verma today gets agitated
360. 13:46again, because she thinks our voice does
361. 13:48not matter, and the voice of the BJP is
362. 13:51the only thing that
363. 13:55He this country is the jagir of the BJP,
364. 13:58but kisi ke baap ka Hindustan nahi hai.
365. 14:00Rajdeep, this is a regime change
366. 14:02operation, and regime change in a
367. 14:04democracy is called a no-confidence
368. 14:07motion. Their allies will lose
369. 14:08confidence in them. Members of the
370. 14:10Bharatiya Janata Party will lose
371. 14:12confidence in them. This is a moral
372. 14:14battle fought on Mahatma Gandhi's
373. 14:16principles. Even the oppressor will
374. 14:18realize that their oppression is no
375. 14:20longer valid, and that's why we will hit
376. 14:22the streets. They will detain one
377. 14:26>> I've listened to you, Anish, and I've
378. 14:28listened to you, Sanju Verma. Thank you
379. 14:30very much, Sanju Verma and Anish
380. 14:31Gawande, for joining me on the show. No,
381. 14:34I Madam, I have some time, 30 seconds
382. 14:37for my take on this special, state
383. 14:40versus the street. It's been a turbulent
384. 14:42week in Indian politics, with the battle
385. 14:45moving from Parliament and television
386. 14:47studios to the streets of this country.
387. 14:49But here's a fundamental democratic
388. 14:51principle. Protest is not a threat to
389. 14:55democracy. It is a safety valve [music]
390. 14:57that keeps democracy alive. The state
391. 15:00has every right, indeed a duty, to
392. 15:02maintain law and order. But there is a
393. 15:04crucial distinction between preventing
394. 15:06violence and criminalizing dissent, or
395. 15:10picking up someone from their house or
396. 15:11an aircraft when they have not committed
397. 15:14any crime. Detaining protesters,
398. 15:17arresting young activists, shutting down
399. 15:20public spaces cannot become the default
400. 15:23response to what is primarily a
401. 15:25political disagreement. Peaceful protest
402. 15:28is a constitutional right, not a favor
403. 15:31granted by the government. The test of a
404. 15:34democracy is not how efficiently it can
405. 15:37silence its critics, but how confidently
406. 15:40it can accommodate them. When the state
407. 15:43begins to see every gathering as a law
408. 15:46and order problem, it risks turning a
409. 15:48legitimate democratic demand into a
410. 15:51confrontation.
411. 15:52The state must maintain order,
412. 15:55but not at the cost of liberty. A
413. 15:58democracy should fear violence, not
414. 16:01peaceful dissent.
415. 16:02>> [music]
416. 16:03>> And yes,
417. 16:04whether there is a regime change or not
418. 16:07will not be decided in the end with
419. 16:09street protests. It will be decided by
420. 16:12the ballot box. Let's leave it in the
421. 16:14end to Janata Janardan, but at least
422. 16:18respect the Janata of this democracy of
423. 16:22ours. And only then can we call India a
424. 16:25true mother of democracy. [music]
425. 16:28Think about it.
426. 16:30Thanks very much for watching. Stay
427. 16:32well. Stay safe.
428. 16:34Have a safe [music] festive weekend.
429. 16:36Jai Hind. Namaskar.