Q&A: Donald Rumsfeld — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:00[Music]
2. 0:07this week on Q&A a look behind the new
3. 0:10book by former Secretary of Defense
4. 0:12Donald Rumsfeld currently on his book
5. 0:14tour Mr Rumsfeld talks about the making
6. 0:17of the book and responds to some reviews
7. 0:20he also looks back to a C-SPAN
8. 0:21appearance 20 years ago where he gave
9. 0:23advice to presidents and their
10. 0:28staffs
11. 0:30Donald Rumsfeld author of known and
12. 0:33unknown how did you write this
13. 0:35book I decided to first I thought about
14. 0:38doing a quick one in a year and using
15. 0:41basically my memory instead I decided
16. 0:44that I have such a a rich archive that I
17. 0:47and I've lived so many years a third of
18. 0:49our country's history which is almost
19. 0:52unbelievable but uh and I decided to
20. 0:55digitize a lot of my papers and and then
21. 0:59use that
22. 1:00the second thing I did was I decided
23. 1:02that I've read a lot of books by friends
24. 1:05involving things that I'd been involved
25. 1:07in
26. 1:08and and I it was a narrow perspective
27. 1:11often so I decided to bring in I don't
28. 1:13know how many people 40 or 50 people one
29. 1:16at a time who were involved with me at
30. 1:18various segments of my life and we'd sit
31. 1:21in a conference room and transcribe tape
32. 1:23it and then transcribe it and each
33. 1:26stimulate the other one and talk about
34. 1:28remind each other of things that took
35. 1:30place and then we transcribe it uh and
36. 1:33then I also had oh I had my parents
37. 1:35letters from World War II I have all the
38. 1:38memos when I met with Gerald Ford the
39. 1:40only president who wasn't elected or
40. 1:42vice president or or president um I I
41. 1:46dictate a lot of memos on these
42. 1:47oldfashioned dictaphones with the little
43. 1:50tapes and I had mountains of paper and I
44. 1:53did a lot of oral histories over the
45. 1:55years each time I'd do some position
46. 1:58wise some group would come and want to
47. 2:00do an oral history so I had this
48. 2:02enormous archive and we just started uh
49. 2:06taking it and putting it together and
50. 2:08then working it and working it and
51. 2:10working it and it took forever it took
52. 2:12four years to do this so but it's fun I
53. 2:15enjoyed it Bill Sapphire said you've got
54. 2:17to enjoy it so I just said well I'm
55. 2:19going to expect that it'll take a long
56. 2:21time be a lot of work and I'll just
57. 2:23relax and enjoy it and I have I've had a
58. 2:25chance to visit with a lot of Old
59. 2:26Friends where did you do it I did it uh
60. 2:30mostly in Washington where my archive is
61. 2:33but the more it got digitized I could do
62. 2:35it out at my home in New Mexico or I
63. 2:37could do it out in St Michael's Maryland
64. 2:39did did you have
65. 2:41someone kind of overseeing the whole
66. 2:43thing for you I've got a I've as someone
67. 2:46said the other day I've got an army I've
68. 2:48got uh I've got that three key people
69. 2:52who who helped me do all of it and then
70. 2:54I've had um oh five or six other people
71. 2:57who've been doing the factchecking and
72. 3:00and uh research uh and transcribing and
73. 3:03all of the Mountain of work that it
74. 3:06involves so I we we probably had a team
75. 3:08of six seven people and how many days or
76. 3:13hours collectively had did you actually
77. 3:16spend on it do you think oh goodness
78. 3:18well for over four years every day most
79. 3:22every day uh probably be you know five
80. 3:24and a half six days a
81. 3:26week uh why did you want to spend all
82. 3:29this time doing this well I I I at first
83. 3:33I didn't at first I thought I'd do a
84. 3:35short book uh and then I decided that
85. 3:38that I had the time I had the ability to
86. 3:42digitize which saves an enormous amount
87. 3:44of time and I I decided that what what I
88. 3:48wanted to do is to try to write it for
89. 3:50people who are interested in history who
90. 3:52are interested in government interest
91. 3:54serious people who who uh would like to
92. 3:57feel that they were there in the the
93. 3:59room when decisions were made and and
94. 4:02get a sense of the people and what the
95. 4:04differences were or what the agreements
96. 4:06were how it worked uh but I but but but
97. 4:10the website that we created with these
98. 4:12hundreds and hundreds of documents and
99. 4:15you know thousands of pages give a give
100. 4:18a reader a chance to read the book look
101. 4:21at an end note there's something like a
102. 4:23th300 endnotes look at the end note and
103. 4:26then go and see the entire uh memo so if
104. 4:29I've quoted a paragraph they can go read
105. 4:30the entire memorandum and see well
106. 4:32that's interesting that's that's what
107. 4:34the context and the perspective was and
108. 4:36I guess partly I wanted to do it because
109. 4:38I'm able to do it I have the time and I
110. 4:40have the archive and the interest and
111. 4:43and I've never done it before I mean
112. 4:46many people have written books I have
113. 4:47never written a book so who paid for all
114. 4:50this staff and everything you out of
115. 4:51your own
116. 4:53pocket so on the website where did you
117. 4:56get this idea and has it ever been done
118. 4:58before that you know of not that I know
119. 5:00of uh I'm I'm sure there's somebody who
120. 5:03must have done it but but what we've
121. 5:05done is we've uh we've taken all of
122. 5:08these primary source documents things in
123. 5:11large measure I've written for whatever
124. 5:14reason over you know so many decades and
125. 5:17um digitized them and then you can
126. 5:19research it you can go in and look by
127. 5:21keyword or name or date and uh so I
128. 5:25think that it's the book is is is rooted
129. 5:29in the archive and it is what it is it
130. 5:32it says what happened I think I know
131. 5:35when I got on I could type in names of
132. 5:37people that I've known and it would come
133. 5:39up but I I guess and you just said this
134. 5:42that you could actually click on a
135. 5:44letter or an article on the endnotes
136. 5:47which I don't think I've ever seen
137. 5:48before uh and as you'll see I'm going to
138. 5:50read back to you some of the things that
139. 5:52people have written they've even used
140. 5:53your own endnotes against you sure oh
141. 5:57exactly it's inevitable if you're going
142. 5:59to put that much out there someone's
143. 6:02going to find something and of course a
144. 6:03lot of it's never never read by me it
145. 6:06would it was never edited there'll be
146. 6:09misspellings there'll be names wrong but
147. 6:12it it these were working documents these
148. 6:14were things that that actually were part
149. 6:16of how things worked what do you think
150. 6:18it cost you oh goodness I don't know
151. 6:21it's cost quite a bit uh fortunately
152. 6:23life's been good I've spent 20 years in
153. 6:26the private sector and and uh and I've
154. 6:28been able to do that would it cost you a
155. 6:30half million a million dollars you think
156. 6:31I don't want to guess but a lot of money
157. 6:35mhm what what do you hope to get from
158. 6:38this I hope to have produced a book
159. 6:41which I think I have that will interest
160. 6:44people in public service that will
161. 6:46inform serious people about how
162. 6:49decisions are made and the fact that
163. 6:50those are tough jobs and that the people
164. 6:53in them are honorable people and and
165. 6:55that they they're they have to make
166. 6:58decisions in with imperfect information
167. 7:01inevitably I hope they'll have a glimpse
168. 7:03of what the times that I've lived have
169. 7:05been this this third of our country's
170. 7:07history I I think of it I I mean I was
171. 7:11serving in Congress during the Vietnam
172. 7:12war and during the Civil Rights marches
173. 7:15and the times when the city of
174. 7:17Washington DC was in Flames after Martin
175. 7:20Luther King was killed assassinated um
176. 7:23they they'll get a sense of the fact
177. 7:24that President Lyndon Johnson could
178. 7:26barely leave the White House for periods
179. 7:28because of the demonstrators against the
180. 7:31war in
181. 7:32Vietnam um we we all have a tendency to
182. 7:35think of the times we're living in as as
183. 7:37somewhat unique and distinctive and of
184. 7:39course they're different but but in in
185. 7:42my 78 years I've seen an awful lot of
186. 7:45turmoil in the country and difficulties
187. 7:47in the country um I must say I also hope
188. 7:51that people will read this and see how
189. 7:53important the all volunteer military's
190. 7:56been if you think about it um
191. 7:59back in the the 60s U before President
192. 8:03Nixon and Milton fredman and a whole
193. 8:05group of people had a push for a
194. 8:07volunteer army and President Nixon
195. 8:09managed to get it through the Congress
196. 8:11before that PE there were people serving
197. 8:12who didn't want to serve in our in our
198. 8:15military everyone today is there because
199. 8:18they want to every single person is
200. 8:20there because they put up their hand and
201. 8:21said I want to do this I'm a volunteer
202. 8:23send me and and the mood in the country
203. 8:26is so different as a result of that
204. 8:28compared to the Vietnam War the today
205. 8:31the what's going on in Iraq or
206. 8:32Afghanistan the American people are
207. 8:34proud of the military and the and the
208. 8:36military are proud of what they're doing
209. 8:37and they know what they're doing and
210. 8:39they know why they're doing it uh which
211. 8:41is why I decided I wanted the proceeds
212. 8:43from the book my proceeds to go to the
213. 8:45men and women in uniform and their
214. 8:47families who also serve and to the
215. 8:49children of of the Fallen uh and uh and
216. 8:53that's that's what that's what'll happen
217. 8:54to the proceeds if you get on the Donald
218. 8:57Rumsfeld Foundation website you see that
219. 8:59you have somewhere around $10 million in
220. 9:01the foundation maybe more by now but you
221. 9:04see that you've given money away
222. 9:07scholarship money away how do you choose
223. 9:10those people how much of that have you
224. 9:11done and why are you doing
225. 9:13that I've had people work for me in
226. 9:16government who um never could have
227. 9:18gotten a Masters or a PhD uh on their
228. 9:22own and there was a foundation that was
229. 9:24supporting that type of thing for people
230. 9:26who needed the assistance and Joyce and
231. 9:28I decided my wife Joyce that we would
232. 9:31give some money each year and we have
233. 9:33spotters around the country at at 0 10
234. 9:3612 15 different universities who make
235. 9:39recommendations to us and then we select
236. 9:42them and and and provide uh the funds
237. 9:45they need the tuition and stiens they
238. 9:47need to be able to particularly people
239. 9:50who are interested in public service
240. 9:52these are people who are studying things
241. 9:54like economics or government or
242. 9:56International Affairs and things that
243. 9:58relate to govern government with the
244. 9:59thought that that maybe someday they'll
245. 10:01participate in in in helping to um guide
246. 10:05and direct our country go back to the
247. 10:08book itself how much of it did you
248. 10:10personally write well I don't I I wrote
249. 10:13a lot um and I don't I don't know quite
250. 10:16how to answer because I dictated so what
251. 10:19I would do is dictate and then trans it
252. 10:21would be transcribed and then our team
253. 10:23of people would work it and fact check
254. 10:25it and and recast it and then I'm I
255. 10:28suppose I've been over over every word
256. 10:29in it uh oh somewhere between 15 and 20
257. 10:33times editing and editing and editing
258. 10:35which is what I do uh we took some of
259. 10:38the material were things that I dictated
260. 10:40years ago and um cables and memorandum
261. 10:45and and the
262. 10:46likes I don't want to the simple
263. 10:49question are you tired of this writing
264. 10:51it and talking it I've seen you on Fox
265. 10:54several times I've seen you on ABC I've
266. 10:57seen you on CBS I've read a lot of
267. 10:58interview in USA Today and other
268. 11:00Publications is this getting old no it's
269. 11:03not at all um I enjoyed doing it as I as
270. 11:07I said and and um if if when looks in
271. 11:11the book I think it's clear that I I
272. 11:13feel very fortunate to have been able to
273. 11:15serve in government over so many in so
274. 11:18many different roles over so many
275. 11:20decades and um I find it
276. 11:24interesting I also have never written a
277. 11:26book before and the thing I've always
278. 11:28enjoyed in life most is learning and
279. 11:30this has been an opportunity for me to
280. 11:32learn to which is which makes it
281. 11:34particularly interesting I I think what
282. 11:36if if you do something over and over and
283. 11:38over again probably it can get a little
284. 11:40tiring but but I've never written a book
285. 11:42and it's been a challenge we we've put
286. 11:44together this wonderful team of people
287. 11:46and and worked hard on it and enjoyed it
288. 11:49and and I'm enjoying uh having a chance
289. 11:52to talk a bit about the book and and how
290. 11:54how we did it and why we did it you told
291. 11:57Fred Barnes in the Weekly Standard that
292. 11:58you called seven people um before this
293. 12:02book was published to tell them what to
294. 12:04expect in it and you I maybe you wrote
295. 12:0720 others uh explain that and why did
296. 12:09you call them and who did you call well
297. 12:12I I remember calling um President Bush
298. 12:15and vice president Cheney and colen
299. 12:17poell and Cony rice and Jerry
300. 12:20Bremer um you know maybe one or two
301. 12:23others and then I sent it out to an
302. 12:25awful lot of the memo uh a separate memo
303. 12:27out to a lot of people the reason I did
304. 12:29it is because this has not been done
305. 12:31before that suddenly there's going to be
306. 12:33this website which exists now uh rum.com
307. 12:36where someone can go in and and and
308. 12:39people will go in they are going in in
309. 12:40large numbers and I thought the people
310. 12:43ought to know that that their names are
311. 12:45in some of these memos and I didn't want
312. 12:47them to be surprised I told all of them
313. 12:50I doubted if there was a single memo in
314. 12:52there that referenced them that they
315. 12:54hadn't already seen I mean it would be
316. 12:56something that I had sent to them
317. 12:57earlier or they'd sent to me or where we
318. 12:59were discussing something so I don't
319. 13:01think there would be any surprises the
320. 13:02only surprise would be that suddenly a
321. 13:04whole bunch of people unknown to the to
322. 13:06me or to them would be going into the
323. 13:08website and seeing these memos and
324. 13:10reading them I saw in a couple of cases
325. 13:12where a memo was classified and you got
326. 13:15the defense department to declassify it
327. 13:17my first reaction when I saw that is if
328. 13:19I want one of those I have to go through
329. 13:21the Freedom of Information Act to do it
330. 13:24is that a little bit unfair to the
331. 13:26outside world that you can get something
332. 13:27Declassified that I couldn't no I
333. 13:29wouldn't think so uh you know I was um
334. 13:32for example US ambassador to Nato uh
335. 13:36back in
336. 13:3919734 uh and um there's a there are
337. 13:43certain things where they just
338. 13:44declassify after a certain period and uh
339. 13:47I was President Reagan's Middle East
340. 13:49Envoy in in the 1980s and uh as I talk
341. 13:53about in the book meeting with Saddam
342. 13:54Hussein and those things and and and a
343. 13:57great large fractions of those things
344. 13:59are automatically
345. 14:01Declassified and then um we had a number
346. 14:05of the things that I dictated of course
347. 14:08were classified only because they were
348. 14:09time sensitive and and and I classified
349. 14:13them originally and the Pentagon does
350. 14:16this in the normal course of things um
351. 14:18and they have I have a bunch of coverage
352. 14:21sitting in my lap here both good and bad
353. 14:23of your book uh to start with who made
354. 14:26the decision to give the first interiew
355. 14:28viws to
356. 14:30ABC and why I don't know why um I
357. 14:35suppose the the various networks
358. 14:37indicated they'd like to do it and then
359. 14:39the publisher and people expert in all
360. 14:41of this which I'm not uh would discuss
361. 14:43it and then we'd end up discussing it
362. 14:45and someone in the group would say I
363. 14:47recommend this or I recommend that and
364. 14:48then that would happen did it have
365. 14:50anything to do with Diane Sawyer and you
366. 14:52working together years ago and no we
367. 14:54really never worked together she she was
368. 14:56in the I think the White House Press
369. 14:58office uh in in the Nixon Administration
370. 15:00but no um we never worked closely
371. 15:03together at all I want to run the
372. 15:05opening T night line you've worked for
373. 15:07four years all of a sudden the book goes
374. 15:10into the hands of the media and all this
375. 15:13is is the introduction and I want to get
376. 15:14your reaction to it must be bad or you
377. 15:16wouldn't want to run have I no it's not
378. 15:19have you seen this I have not okay let's
379. 15:21let's run it and get your reaction
380. 15:26okay tonight's on Nightline World
381. 15:30exclusive Diane Sawyer goes head-to-head
382. 15:33with Donald Rumsfeld in a TV
383. 15:36first the former Secretary of Defense
384. 15:38opens up as never before the
385. 15:40controversies the wars the wmds and the
386. 15:43big question what did he get
387. 15:47wrong plus the man whose public face has
388. 15:50been Stony Defiance gets emotional for
389. 15:53the first time about his private trials
390. 15:55at home during his tenure at the
391. 15:56Pentagon and eye opening surprising
392. 15:59revelatory interview starts right
393. 16:02now from the global resources of ABC
394. 16:05news with Terry Moran Cynthia mcfaden
395. 16:08and Bill Weir in New York City this is
396. 16:12Nightline February 7th
397. 16:162011 so uh what's your reaction to the
398. 16:20the Don Rumsfeld book well I think I
399. 16:22have seen that or at least parts of that
400. 16:25um you mean I know what I think about
401. 16:27the book I like it but I mean the way
402. 16:29it's
403. 16:30treated trumpet's blowing it sounds like
404. 16:32it's
405. 16:33hype I guess they want people to watch
406. 16:36their television show is why they do it
407. 16:38that way that's that's not the book has
408. 16:41been characterized quite differently by
409. 16:42other people as as a very serious
410. 16:46historical um book that that people
411. 16:50interested in history will read what's
412. 16:52your reaction to the in two cases they
413. 16:55show you breaking down on the on camera
414. 16:57what's your reaction retion to seeing
415. 16:59that well um you know I wish I don't
416. 17:02know what my reaction is it it's it it
417. 17:04happened that my my wife was terribly
418. 17:07sick and almost died at one point and
419. 17:10and
420. 17:11we've my my dad had Alzheimer's and it's
421. 17:14something that's hard to to talk about
422. 17:16or think about and and uh th those are
423. 17:20things that I'm not normally discussing
424. 17:23but she asked the questions and I
425. 17:25answered them as best I could have you
426. 17:27seen Christopher dicki's um review of
427. 17:30your book in Bloomberg bu business news
428. 17:34no I haven't I'll just read you what he
429. 17:35says he says I've known Don Rumsfeld for
430. 17:3715 years and I approached known and
431. 17:39unknown with some trepidation I was
432. 17:41against the Iraq War from the
433. 17:43outset and then he says known and
434. 17:46unknown changed my mind Rumsfeld doesn't
435. 17:50suffer from testosterone deficit
436. 17:52syndrome and he comes at the reader with
437. 17:55his jaw full out yet even his critics
438. 17:57will have to strained to assert that
439. 17:59he's dishonest he takes his share of
440. 18:02blame for the administration's
441. 18:03overemphasis on
442. 18:04wmds there were he rights many other
443. 18:07valid reasons for taking out Saddam
444. 18:08Hussein among them saddam's more than
445. 18:10numerous violations of the UN
446. 18:12resolutions he makes no claims to being
447. 18:15a PR genius and acknowledges that the
448. 18:17Old Europe crack didn't help but he
449. 18:19insists America did the right thing in
450. 18:20Iraq and that he would do it again he
451. 18:22believes that Bush 41 should have
452. 18:23finished the job on the first go round
453. 18:25but he doesn't buy into the edible
454. 18:27Theory much in Vogue that bush 43 went
455. 18:31back to upstage as old man now
456. 18:33Christopher dicki says he's known you
457. 18:35for 15 years against the war but he
458. 18:37likes your book does that surprise you
459. 18:39no I hope other people will read the
460. 18:41book carefully I've seen some negative
461. 18:44comments on the book and it sounded like
462. 18:46they hadn't read it but but that sounds
463. 18:49like a person who's a serious person
464. 18:51who's read it and and that's what he
465. 18:53thinks and people can think what they
466. 18:54think that's that's the way our country
467. 18:56Works interrupt me at any time because
468. 18:58I'm going to read you the AL newarth
469. 19:00column from last uh Friday February the
470. 19:0311th did you see that I haven't Al
471. 19:06newart 86 years old he was the founder
472. 19:08of USA Today he has a column every
473. 19:10Friday and he says Don Rumsfeld best
474. 19:12known and remembered as President George
475. 19:14W Bush's Secretary of Defense before and
476. 19:16during the Iraq War has pinned an 815
477. 19:19page book released this week titled
478. 19:20known and unknown it should remind us of
479. 19:23how little we knew about Iraq and how
480. 19:25Rumsfeld vice president Cheney Bush and
481. 19:27other pull the wool over our eyes that's
482. 19:30just uh inaccurate uh in the book as I
483. 19:35discuss at some length um think about
484. 19:38this colum pow is the one who made the
485. 19:40presentation at the United Nations he
486. 19:43probably had more experience dealing
487. 19:44with intelligence materials than anyone
488. 19:47including George Tennant the director of
489. 19:49CIA um one of the intelligence elements
490. 19:52reported to him at the Department of
491. 19:54State he spent days working on it he uh
492. 19:58prepared a speech for the world which he
493. 20:01believed every single word in it let
494. 20:04there be no doubt President Bush
495. 20:06believed every word he said as did Vice
496. 20:08President sheney and Ki rice and and as
497. 20:11did I I think that it is
498. 20:13[Music]
499. 20:15um I don't know quite how to
500. 20:17characterize a person who would come to
501. 20:19that conclusion when all the evidence is
502. 20:22to the contrary the the Congress uh
503. 20:25Republicans and Democrats alike looked
504. 20:27at the intelligence and voted
505. 20:29overwhelmingly for the resolution for
506. 20:32President Bush um the political
507. 20:35leadership in the Congress Hillary
508. 20:37Clinton Bill Clinton John kery one after
509. 20:41another Al Gore were in support now when
510. 20:45things didn't go well obviously they
511. 20:46shifted their position somewhat but but
512. 20:49you can go back the record is clear the
513. 20:51intelligence agencies of the United
514. 20:53Kingdom and of France and other
515. 20:55countries all were in agreement and and
516. 20:58and I think it's it's it's terribly
517. 21:00unfair to suggest that that uh anyone's
518. 21:04was pulling the wool over anyone's eyes
519. 21:06it's just flat not true Al newarth
520. 21:08writes but they said fixing the problem
521. 21:10would be simple before The Invasion
522. 21:12Rumsfeld told troops it could last you
523. 21:14know six days six weeks I doubt six
524. 21:17months Cheney said the conflict would be
525. 21:19weeks rather than months we were talking
526. 21:21about major combat operations and and
527. 21:24there was nothing inaccurate there at
528. 21:26all and and I I don't know how many
529. 21:29times I said that anyone who tells you
530. 21:31how long it's going to last how much
531. 21:33it's going to cost or how many lives
532. 21:34will be lost is making a mistake because
533. 21:38people almost always are
534. 21:40wrong Morin Dow Donald Rumsfeld has oh
535. 21:43you've got to be kidding here we go
536. 21:45Donald rumel has only 18 815 Pages
537. 21:49including a centilating list of acronyms
538. 21:51to explain why he was not responsible
539. 21:53when stuff happened that's an old phrase
540. 21:55of yours his Memoir known and unknown is
541. 21:58like a living breathing version of the
542. 22:00man himself very thorough highly
543. 22:02analytical and totally absent any
544. 22:05credible
545. 22:06self-criticism false she must not have
546. 22:08read it anyone who's read it as you have
547. 22:11knows that I've tried in there to talk
548. 22:14about things that were disappointments
549. 22:15or things that one might regret and and
550. 22:18I did regret or do regret um I I think
551. 22:21what I've done is to to try to set out
552. 22:24not only my Recollections and my
553. 22:27opinions but also documentation that
554. 22:29supports it uh do you read that stuff
555. 22:32when you're uh no don't ever Marine Dow
556. 22:36my goodness gracious why not you've got
557. 22:38to be why would one she has a fixation
558. 22:41apparently and she's cynical so I hope
559. 22:44my wife once read one and she said I
560. 22:46sure hope that woman is not as cynical
561. 22:48in all of her life as she is in her
562. 22:50column because it would be such an
563. 22:52unhappy life so in a normal day how do
564. 22:54you filter information into you now that
565. 22:57you're in civilian life
566. 22:58well I I obviously um use a computer and
567. 23:02I listen to news
568. 23:04programs uh occasionally and uh and I
569. 23:07read a lot I read
570. 23:10newspapers let me stop there because in
571. 23:12the early part of I want to go back to
572. 23:14some of this but in the early part of
573. 23:15your book you cite Whitaker Chambers as
574. 23:18having an impact on your
575. 23:20life the book witness was an important
576. 23:23book for whatever reason partly because
577. 23:26it is an important book but also because
578. 23:28I read it at an important time in my
579. 23:30life I was in college and and uh uh and
580. 23:33I watched the Army McCarthy hearings and
581. 23:36they had an impact on me I I it was an
582. 23:39opportunity to see the Congress
583. 23:42U going Beyond its its proper role go
584. 23:47back to witness for a moment what was it
585. 23:48about that whole episode that well of
586. 23:51course it was the Cold War was on and
587. 23:54here was a man who was a a communist and
588. 23:57in a confessed communist and the
589. 24:01hearings of course in the Congress where
590. 24:04there was eler his on the one side a
591. 24:07person who'd been a clerk as I recall
592. 24:09for Felix Frankfurter and was attractive
593. 24:12and gone to the nice schools and so
594. 24:15forth and you had this man who was an
595. 24:16admitted communist who wasn't very
596. 24:18attractive and nobody believed him and
597. 24:20nobody was supporting him and uh when
598. 24:22the thing all sorted out uh it turns out
599. 24:25that Whitaker Chambers was correct and
600. 24:27aler his was in fact uh had known him
601. 24:31and had been a communist and that twist
602. 24:35where what everyone seemed to think
603. 24:38wasn't the case uh was was helpful and
604. 24:42and of course it was also at the time
605. 24:44that the Soviet Union was aggressive and
606. 24:46and expanding in in several continents
607. 24:50there was concern about uh the influence
608. 24:53of Communism in the world and uh and I
609. 24:56was studying government political
610. 24:58science in school so it just had had an
611. 25:01effect witness you mentioned the Army
612. 25:03McCarthy hearings are there other things
613. 25:05like that that still are with you years
614. 25:07later well Adalie Stevenson's speech at
615. 25:10my senior banquet at in college in 1954
616. 25:13was unquestionably the the a speech that
617. 25:17that um was inspiring it
618. 25:20was it was elegant it was eloquent it it
619. 25:24was pointed to young men getting ready
620. 25:28to go off and serve in the military and
621. 25:31it it left me with the clear
622. 25:34understanding that that all of us have
623. 25:36an obligation to participate and to help
624. 25:39guide and direct our country and and and
625. 25:42Civic responsibilities and I hope people
626. 25:45will read it I put that speech on my
627. 25:47website so it might Inspire other people
628. 25:50I want to show you some video from 20
629. 25:53years ago uh this was a conference on
630. 25:55the presidency at Hoster University on
631. 25:57long is Island and this is only 30
632. 25:59seconds it'll speak for
633. 26:02itself so many people would come up to
634. 26:04me when I was chief of staff and say
635. 26:06Romy this is Goofy the president's
636. 26:08making a terrible mistake we've simply
637. 26:10got to get him to change his mind and
638. 26:13I'd say terrific I'll make an
639. 26:14appointment we'll go in this afternoon
640. 26:15let's go on in there we take the guy in
641. 26:17there the guyd get all steamed up smoke
642. 26:19would be coming out of his ears he'd
643. 26:20walk into the president's office genu
644. 26:22flect kiss his ring tell him what a
645. 26:24wonderful job he was doing walk out and
646. 26:26say well that should have said them
647. 26:27straight
648. 26:29bang they go absolutely to jellly when
649. 26:32they walk in the Oval Office I I don't I
650. 26:34I suppose I understand it but I must say
651. 26:37I found it
652. 26:39frustrating how often did you see that
653. 26:41happen oh all the time you you know one
654. 26:45of I I've been collecting things I call
655. 26:47rumsfeld's rules they're not really mine
656. 26:49they're insights of U people a lot
657. 26:52smarter than I am and and one of them is
658. 26:55that that if you have proximity to a
659. 26:58president you automatically have an
660. 27:00obligation to tell them the truth and
661. 27:02what you really believe with the bark
662. 27:04off because people who don't have
663. 27:06proximity and only go in and see them
664. 27:09occasionally simply don't want to do it
665. 27:12they they'll tell me and they'll say
666. 27:14this is terrible and he's gota Jerry
667. 27:16Ford's got to do this or you know George
668. 27:18W bush has to do that and he's making a
669. 27:20big mistake and then you put them in
670. 27:22there and they just can't get it out
671. 27:25it's their one chance and they want to
672. 27:28they want the president to know they
673. 27:29like him and wish him well and are
674. 27:31positive about him generally and they
675. 27:33don't want to use their brief moment
676. 27:35with the president to uh um open a wound
677. 27:39can you remember when
678. 27:40you told the president exactly how you
679. 27:43feel about things and uh goodness over
680. 27:46and over and over give us an example
681. 27:48some
682. 27:49moment well if if if you go to my book I
683. 27:52discuss my my situation with Gerald Ford
684. 27:55now that's unusual here was a man the
685. 27:57the only President I've ever known who
686. 27:58was a friend we served in Congress
687. 28:01together I as I talk about it in the
688. 28:02book I've I tried to I I did help him
689. 28:05become minority leader of the United
690. 28:07States House of Representatives and so
691. 28:09we had a a different kind of a
692. 28:11relationship than one would normally
693. 28:13have with the president but I would walk
694. 28:15into them over and over and and there
695. 28:17are going to be there are or will soon
696. 28:19be uh memos on my website where where I
697. 28:22just say precisely what I said and and
698. 28:25uh what I would do is say look I think
699. 28:27you're doing this flat wrong let me tell
700. 28:28you why one time he was getting ready to
701. 28:31give a speech on the wi program the whip
702. 28:33inflation now program and uh I read it
703. 28:36came to me late that he'd already
704. 28:38scheduled time for the Congress and I
705. 28:40read it and I went into him and I said
706. 28:42look this is not good enough for a
707. 28:43president simply is not going to do the
708. 28:45job this is too important a subject and
709. 28:47I urge you to cancel your speech take
710. 28:49five minutes and simply say to the world
711. 28:52the truth the truth is this is an
712. 28:54enormously important issue the economy
713. 28:56was in the tank and and uh that you're
714. 28:58not satisfied with what you've what what
715. 29:01the economists and and your team have
716. 29:03put together and you're going to go back
717. 29:04to the drawing board and by golly you're
718. 29:06going to get this right and uh he said
719. 29:09Romy I think this is a this is a good
720. 29:11program and I'm going to go ahead and do
721. 29:12it and I I told him well you're going to
722. 29:14make a whale of a mistake and he did he
723. 29:16went out and it was laughed at the win
724. 29:19program and the buttons that said win
725. 29:21and the bumper stickers remember the you
726. 29:23remember this sure oh my goodness whip
727. 29:25inflation now let me show you picture of
728. 29:28you and Jerry Ford uh you can see it on
729. 29:32the monitor there yeah he's waving and
730. 29:35you're off to the
731. 29:37right what's the story there that was in
732. 29:40San
733. 29:41Francisco and
734. 29:44uh this woman Sarah Jane Moore was just
735. 29:47across the street um normal street
736. 29:50size his car was right in front of him
737. 29:53and we came out together and he had B an
738. 29:57El elevator had come down and hit his
739. 29:59head and and scarred his head and of
740. 30:02course he was being teased by folks
741. 30:03about bumping his head and stumbling and
742. 30:06so forth here's one of the best athletes
743. 30:08that ever served in that office and so I
744. 30:10said to him look we were up in the hotel
745. 30:12room and I said look when you come out
746. 30:15we don't want to have Chevy Chase have a
747. 30:17big fun at your expense about the fact
748. 30:19you bumped your head again come out walk
749. 30:22fast wave and just get right in the car
750. 30:25and go get get out of get out to the
751. 30:28airport well he came out and and the
752. 30:31bullet she shot a bullet went right by
753. 30:33his head right by my head right by the
754. 30:35secret serviceman's head into the wall
755. 30:37of the St Francis Hotel and we pushed
756. 30:39him in the back seat of the car and the
757. 30:42Secret Service guy and I were on top of
758. 30:44him and the car sped out of town and U
759. 30:48six eight blocks later you could hear
760. 30:49muffled thing come on ROM me you guys
761. 30:51get off you're heavy so and fortunately
762. 30:55he wasn't hit uh but it it's it was the
763. 30:58second time that he'd been uh someone
764. 31:02had tried to assassinate him in in
765. 31:03California the other was in Sacramento
766. 31:05in the park as we were walking in to see
767. 31:07Governor Jerry Brown that's Squeaky from
768. 31:10yeah that was Squeaky from both of these
769. 31:11women still in prison no they let Sarah
770. 31:13Jane more out and I'm not sure about
771. 31:15squeaky fromom she got out and said
772. 31:18she's sorry she missed and and she
773. 31:20wanted to create chaos uh this Sarah
774. 31:23Jane Moore what does that do to you A
775. 31:26near Miss and to him well he
776. 31:30um we got him a a bulletproof vest
777. 31:34finally and he wore it I think
778. 31:36twice but uh for me what it what it told
779. 31:40me was it's it's practically impossible
780. 31:43to protect a person uh you know if if
781. 31:46you're a politician and you're out
782. 31:48seeing people and doing things and
783. 31:51around um the person who tries to do it
784. 31:53can be killed or or captured uh
785. 31:56generally but um it it's just not
786. 32:00possible to protect a person uh you know
787. 32:0324 hours a day against every conceivable
788. 32:06type of attack one of the things we
789. 32:08learned in your book is a lot about
790. 32:09Connections people you knew and uh I
791. 32:12want to run another clip from that
792. 32:14session you had which will get us to the
793. 32:17next section I want to talk about
794. 32:18business and
795. 32:19[Music]
796. 32:21government as in business I think
797. 32:23success in government requires an
798. 32:25orientation to the customer
799. 32:27customer the only reason for government
800. 32:29to exist is to serve the people it's
801. 32:33important for people in the White House
802. 32:34to remember that
803. 32:36uh I don't know quite why it is that
804. 32:39that fact is so easily
805. 32:41overlooked I suppose in business if you
806. 32:44overlook it you go out of business but
807. 32:47but in government it just goes on and on
808. 32:50and
809. 32:52on how many years in business GD surl oh
810. 32:55more than 20
811. 32:57I was chief executive of surl and
812. 32:59general instrument Corporation and then
813. 33:01chairman of Gilead Sciences over the
814. 33:04years how would you characterize the
815. 33:06difference between running a business
816. 33:08for-profit business stock market the
817. 33:12whole thing and running a government
818. 33:13agency like the Department of
819. 33:15Defense in business
820. 33:18um if you do poorly the business goes
821. 33:23out of business it ends and government
822. 33:26doesn't end govern can do quite poorly
823. 33:28over a long long long period of time and
824. 33:31it just goes on and on and
825. 33:34on the um another thing about business
826. 33:38is you know human beings and unless
827. 33:41you're Einstein or Mozart and you you go
828. 33:45off and all by yourself and do something
829. 33:47brilliant all the rest of us who aren't
830. 33:49Einstein's or mozarts what we do is we
831. 33:51what we do is with other people so in in
832. 33:54in business you lay out a course of
833. 33:58action try
834. 34:00it get people to help you do it if the
835. 34:03people do well you reward them if the
836. 34:05people don't do well you get other
837. 34:07people to help do it and if if it does
838. 34:11well you encourage it and keep it going
839. 34:14if it doesn't do well you stop
840. 34:17it in government it's quite different in
841. 34:20government for example when I was
842. 34:21running the office of Economic
843. 34:23Opportunity we would try something and
844. 34:27before we could even get it going the
845. 34:29Congress wanted an oversight hearing
846. 34:32people wanted to have an inspector
847. 34:33General's report on it people kept
848. 34:35pulling it up by the roots to see how it
849. 34:37was doing and that's the first way to
850. 34:39kill something we tried for example
851. 34:41educational vouchers we tried uh certain
852. 34:44type of of family assistance in in
853. 34:47welfare performance Contracting and
854. 34:50education but no one would let them
855. 34:53really in there long be there long
856. 34:56enough to see if they would work they
857. 34:58always wanted to examine it debate it
858. 35:01discuss it which in the case of business
859. 35:03isn't the case at all you can go out and
860. 35:05try something if it doesn't work you
861. 35:07stop it if something doesn't work in
862. 35:10government well my goodness there are
863. 35:12investigations you made a big mistake
864. 35:14everything's horrible and uh so the the
865. 35:17chances of doing having something
866. 35:21Succeed in Business are vastly greater
867. 35:24in in government um because of something
868. 35:27doesn't ever end it doesn't have to stop
869. 35:30if it doesn't work well um that's not
870. 35:33the
871. 35:34case the day we're taping this uh Monday
872. 35:38February
873. 35:3914th this article in USA
874. 35:42Today right here it says the challenge
875. 35:45of belt tightening Pentagon has tried
876. 35:47for years to drop alternative engine for
877. 35:49F35 yet lawmakers refused to cancel the
878. 35:52program
879. 35:54yeah you saw this up close and you talk
880. 35:57about something called The Iron Triangle
881. 35:58in your book first of all what's the
882. 36:00iron triangle and I want to ask you
883. 36:01about things like this the iron triangle
884. 36:05as I characterize it is the fact that
885. 36:08the bureaucracy in the Department of
886. 36:10Defense military and civilian is
887. 36:13relatively permanent it's there the
888. 36:16defense contractors uh uh is that's an
889. 36:19institution that exists in our society
890. 36:21is relatively permanent it's there and
891. 36:24the Congress of the United States the
892. 36:25members and their sta change very
893. 36:27relatively little in any given election
894. 36:30cycle and the three of them get together
895. 36:33and and develop a a comfort level as to
896. 36:36what ought to be now if somebody comes
897. 36:38in then and wants to change that namely
898. 36:40a president of the United States gets
899. 36:41elected and he has views so take
900. 36:44President George W bush he gave a speech
901. 36:46at the Citadel he outlined what he
902. 36:48thought ought to happen how the
903. 36:49Department of Defense could be brought
904. 36:51into the 21st century and any changes
905. 36:54that are made are tend to be made over
906. 36:57the objection of the Congress the
907. 36:59defense contractors and the permanent
908. 37:01bureaucracy they're comfortable with the
909. 37:03way it is they they've concluded that
910. 37:05that's the way it ought to be and if a
911. 37:07president gets elected uh and comes into
912. 37:09office with different views um they
913. 37:12there tends to be natural opposition to
914. 37:15it I cancel for example the Crusader
915. 37:17program I can't think of a worse name in
916. 37:21in this environment we're in than the
917. 37:22Crusader but uh it was an enormous
918. 37:25artillery piece that took two aircraft
919. 37:27to move uh anywhere in the world
920. 37:30certainly not something that that um was
921. 37:32appropriate for the 21st century and and
922. 37:35the asymmetric Warfare that we're facing
923. 37:38and the opposition to it was just
924. 37:41incredible I mean the retired community
925. 37:45in the Army the active duty community in
926. 37:47the Army the civilian contractors the
927. 37:50Congress I'll give you an example just a
928. 37:54data
929. 37:55point when I was Secretary of Defense in
930. 37:57the 70s the defense authorization bill
931. 37:59was 74 pages
932. 38:01long when I came back in the year 2001
933. 38:06if I'm not mistaken the defense
934. 38:08authorization bill was over 500 pages so
935. 38:12so what happened is in the intervening
936. 38:14period the stabs in Congress mult
937. 38:17ballooned they went up by a multiple of
938. 38:18two or three
939. 38:21the continuing layering of requirements
940. 38:25from the Congress generally stimulated
941. 38:28either by the defense Community or
942. 38:30stimulated by the bureaucracy because
943. 38:32they want to perpetuate something uh
944. 38:35ends up with with rule requirement
945. 38:37reports all of these things hundreds of
946. 38:40reports are required by the Department
947. 38:42of Defense hundreds of letters have to
948. 38:44be answered uh for all kinds of detailed
949. 38:47things and the the movement away from
950. 38:51legislative oversight of a broad uh
951. 38:54substantive nature which would be very
952. 38:56very constructive if they if hearings
953. 38:58were held on important
954. 39:00things going down not to Big broad
955. 39:04issues but down to micro management of
956. 39:07the thing the closest thing I can think
957. 39:09of is is Gullivers do you remember
958. 39:11Gullivers travels and and the
959. 39:13liliputians would put threads over guler
960. 39:16Gulliver was big and strong and the
961. 39:18thread no one of those threads made any
962. 39:20difference it wasn't a problem or two or
963. 39:22five or 10 or hundreds but when you put
964. 39:25hundreds of these threads over Gulliver
965. 39:27he couldn't get up and and that's
966. 39:29basically what's happening in government
967. 39:30to the Department of Defense let me read
968. 39:32the first paragraph it says for 5 years
969. 39:33running two presidents have tried to
970. 39:35eliminate funding for a backup engine on
971. 39:38a fighter jet a program defense
972. 39:40secretary Robert Gates calls unnecessary
973. 39:42and it goes in here to the details of
974. 39:44how much money these industries like
975. 39:46General Electric and others are giving
976. 39:47to the members of Congress and the
977. 39:50members a former om director Rob Portman
978. 39:53has written up in here about receiving
979. 39:55something like 59 ,000 from GE over for
980. 39:58the 2010 elections and I guess my main
981. 40:01point to find out from you is how can we
982. 40:04with the trouble we're in
983. 40:06economically how is this ever going to
984. 40:08stop when the defense department who
985. 40:10needs these weapons says no and the
986. 40:12Congress says yes I mean every year
987. 40:15there was another I don't know was 10 or
988. 40:1712 billion dollars that the Congress
989. 40:20added to our legislation that we didn't
990. 40:23want that we argued please don't put in
991. 40:26there it's for things that had nothing
992. 40:29to do with the defense
993. 40:32budget now the implication of your
994. 40:35question is sure we've got serious
995. 40:37economic problems in this country but
996. 40:39there's no way to balance this budget
997. 40:41off the defense department I mean that
998. 40:44wasn't my implication that how do we
999. 40:45stop this throughout government exactly
1000. 40:47it's broad because I mean the
1001. 40:48entitlements is basically where the the
1002. 40:51money goes it's the largest fraction uh
1003. 40:53we're spending today a relatively small
1004. 40:56small percentage of our GDP on defense
1005. 40:59uh compared to for example back in the
1006. 41:02Eisenhower and Kennedy era we were
1007. 41:04spending I think 10% we're now down into
1008. 41:06the uh 3 and four% in that area of of
1009. 41:12GDP want to put something up on the
1010. 41:14screen because
1011. 41:17um while you were off being Secretary of
1012. 41:19Defense we were getting phone calls on
1013. 41:21our call-in show every day about this
1014. 41:24and you don't you talk you allude to it
1015. 41:25in your book but you don't talk
1016. 41:27specifically about it what I have here
1017. 41:28is a January 26 1998 letter that you
1018. 41:33signed 98 98 when you were a civilian
1019. 41:36right and you signed it and I want to
1020. 41:38just ask about because well read it and
1021. 41:41you'll see why uh this was to President
1022. 41:44Clinton and we'll show you in a minute
1023. 41:46the list of people who signed it the you
1024. 41:49say here the only acceptable strategy is
1025. 41:51one that eliminates the possibility that
1026. 41:52Iraq will be able to use or threaten to
1027. 41:54use weapons of mass destruction
1028. 41:57in the near term this means a
1029. 41:58willingness to undertake military action
1030. 42:00as diplomacy is clearly failing 98 now
1031. 42:03you're not in government in the long
1032. 42:05term it means removing Saddam Hussein
1033. 42:06and his regime from power that now needs
1034. 42:09to become the aim of American foreign
1035. 42:12policy we urge you to articulate this
1036. 42:14aim and to turn your administration's
1037. 42:17attention to implementing a strategy for
1038. 42:19removing saddam's regime from Power this
1039. 42:22will require a full complement of
1040. 42:23diplomatic political and Military
1041. 42:25efforts although we are fully aware of
1042. 42:27the dangers and difficulties in
1043. 42:28implementing this policy we believe the
1044. 42:30dangers of failing to do so are far
1045. 42:32greater we believe the US has the
1046. 42:34authority under the existing un
1047. 42:36resolutions to take the necessary steps
1048. 42:38including military steps to protect our
1049. 42:40Vital interest in the Gulf last sentence
1050. 42:42in any case American policy cannot
1051. 42:44continue to be crippled by a misguided
1052. 42:46insistence on unanimity in the UN
1053. 42:49Security Council now if you look over on
1054. 42:51this screen you will see who signed it
1055. 42:55and those people on the right all those
1056. 42:57people were out of government at the
1057. 42:59time then in the next in the
1058. 43:00administration of George Bush they come
1059. 43:02in National Security Council there with
1060. 43:04Mr uh khil zad Bill Crystal had Weekly
1061. 43:08Standard Richard Pearl was the head of
1062. 43:10the defense policy board there you are
1063. 43:12Donald rumpel heading up to the defense
1064. 43:13department guess is in so many ways this
1065. 43:16letter which was a project for a New
1066. 43:17American Century MH you were
1067. 43:20successful the um it's interesting
1068. 43:23because uh that was in
1069. 43:251998 and the Democratic Congress passed
1070. 43:29a resolution that made the policy of the
1071. 43:32United States of America regime change
1072. 43:34in Iraq and President Clinton agreed
1073. 43:37with it and signed it so there was broad
1074. 43:40agreement in in both political parties
1075. 43:43uh back in the 90s that there was I mean
1076. 43:46here you had a a country that was on the
1077. 43:49state Department's terrorist list you
1078. 43:51had a country that had invaded uh Kuwait
1079. 43:54you had a country that had engaged in a
1080. 43:57long war with Iran you had a country
1081. 43:59that was shooting at American airplanes
1082. 44:02almost every day as the UK and the US
1083. 44:05aircraft Patrol the no-fly zones in the
1084. 44:08northern and southern part of Iraq and
1085. 44:11you had a a country that that was had
1086. 44:13rejected I think eventually some 17 un
1087. 44:17resolutions so I don't think it's
1088. 44:19surprising that a number of people in
1089. 44:21both political parties H held that view
1090. 44:24well but by and large these are the
1091. 44:25people that moved into the
1092. 44:26administration had that view before they
1093. 44:28got in the administration but it was
1094. 44:30broadly supported by the Democrats and
1095. 44:32by President Clinton no I don't question
1096. 44:33that it just seems to me that all it was
1097. 44:35interesting that you this was place this
1098. 44:37outfit was set up by I think Robert
1099. 44:40Kagan and and Bill Crystal the office
1100. 44:43was located at the Weekly Standard but
1101. 44:44here all of you were together then and I
1102. 44:47just wondered if you remember why you
1103. 44:49signed that letter and what the
1104. 44:50circumstances were around it because
1105. 44:52people called us all the time and said
1106. 44:54we should have known this was coming
1107. 44:56because these guys all agreed to it
1108. 44:58beforehand interesting yeah I mean the
1109. 45:00cons it's whether it's a conspiracy or
1110. 45:02whether it's actually it happened how
1111. 45:04can conspiracy it's it's a matter of
1112. 45:06public record it's people said it
1113. 45:09publicly and President Clinton agreed
1114. 45:11and the Democratic house incend agreed I
1115. 45:14mean how could anyone use the word
1116. 45:16conspiracy well we you probably hadn't
1117. 45:18heard some of our callers I mean it but
1118. 45:20the point that I want to get you to talk
1119. 45:22about is the idea that all of you knew
1120. 45:25each other then
1121. 45:26you agreed on that point then you came
1122. 45:28into government it's no surprise that
1123. 45:29you carried that out I had no intention
1124. 45:32of coming back in government you can be
1125. 45:33sure of that that was a big surprise for
1126. 45:35me well I mean President George W bush
1127. 45:39did not sign that no he did not but Dick
1128. 45:41Cheney signed the original letter and
1129. 45:43the year before setting up the whole
1130. 45:45project for a New American Century is
1131. 45:47that right so you had Richard Armitage
1132. 45:48over State and you had you you saw the
1133. 45:51list yeah well I mean what I would say
1134. 45:54is that that um
1135. 45:56President Bush did not sign he is the
1136. 45:59pre was the president he is the one who
1137. 46:00made the decision and um I I think that
1138. 46:04the the using the word conspiracy I
1139. 46:06think Brian is a real uh unfortunate
1140. 46:10thing yeah I'm not using that there are
1141. 46:12people who yeah there are people who who
1142. 46:15say things like that but there is is not
1143. 46:17any shred of of legitimacy to the use of
1144. 46:21that word all right here is an odd and
1145. 46:23an end I want to ask you about this this
1146. 46:25comes out of an interview that I did
1147. 46:27with a fellow named Rowan Scarboro a
1148. 46:29book about
1149. 46:30you and I just want I'll run this and
1150. 46:34you tell us finally what is true and
1151. 46:36what is not true let's run this no I
1152. 46:38can't be the first person to tell you
1153. 46:40that the F the first thing I learned in
1154. 46:42here that surprised me was that Donald
1155. 46:45Rumsfeld is a close friend of Dan
1156. 46:47rathers and co-owns a ranch with him
1157. 46:49somewhere where did you find that well
1158. 46:51uh when I was interviewing uh rell's
1159. 46:54friends one of them just mentioned
1160. 46:55mention by the way I think he and Dan
1161. 46:58Rather own property together in New
1162. 47:00Mexico so I said oh that's an
1163. 47:02interesting tidbit Dan Rather is not a
1164. 47:04particular Ally of Republicans and
1165. 47:06Rumsfeld is a lifelong Republican so I
1166. 47:09called rumsfeld's Aid and he said to me
1167. 47:12I think that's urban legend I I don't I
1168. 47:15don't think that's true two days later
1169. 47:17he comes back and says yeah they own a
1170. 47:19ranch together in uh teos New Mexico so
1171. 47:22uh they met during the Nixon
1172. 47:24Administration when uh uh rather covered
1173. 47:27the White House and they've just
1174. 47:28remained friends very close friends ever
1175. 47:31since you want the facts yes sir the
1176. 47:34facts are these um I Didn't Know Dan Ram
1177. 47:38we were not close friends uh our
1178. 47:42children went to school together in
1179. 47:43Washington DC and our wives were close
1180. 47:45friends and Dan and I became friends um
1181. 47:49I I was not because of he was covering
1182. 47:51the White House I was in government but
1183. 47:54uh I didn't deal with them from a press
1184. 47:57standpoint at all it was more of a
1185. 47:59neighborhood type thing and at at a
1186. 48:02certain point it was not to New Mexico
1187. 48:04it was
1188. 48:07um I can't remember the name of the town
1189. 48:10it's it's over east of Santa Fe and uh
1190. 48:14we owned a ranch there um there were
1191. 48:17five of us I think who owned the ranch
1192. 48:20um just different people had different
1193. 48:22relationships and and it was kind of a
1194. 48:25we never used it much it was a uh an
1195. 48:28investment and um i' I I've known Dan
1196. 48:32over the years and um I haven't seen him
1197. 48:34in ages Joyce my wife Joyce sees Jean
1198. 48:37from time to time so you know do you
1199. 48:39still have an ownership at all no that
1200. 48:42and that was in the 70s and 80s it's
1201. 48:43been I'm going to guess I don't know 10
1202. 48:4715 20 years since we've had that
1203. 48:51ranch oh it's near Las Vegas uh new
1204. 48:54mexic yeah not Las Vegas
1205. 48:57Nevada embedding of journalists MH in
1206. 49:01the Iraq War at one point there were 775
1207. 49:04journalists and photographers whose idea
1208. 49:08was it I don't know precisely I know who
1209. 49:11I heard at first from and it was uh Tory
1210. 49:13Clark uh the assistant secretary of
1211. 49:15defense for public affairs and she'd
1212. 49:18been working with her staff and uh
1213. 49:20various people discussing it whether it
1214. 49:22was a good idea whether it wasn't a good
1215. 49:24idea and at some moment she came to uh
1216. 49:26General Myers the chairman of the Joint
1217. 49:28Chiefs of Staff and me and said that she
1218. 49:31believed that this would be a good idea
1219. 49:34that we could allow journalists to to go
1220. 49:37right into the units that were fighting
1221. 49:39a war in Afghanistan and eventually in
1222. 49:41Iraq and and let them see for themselves
1223. 49:45uh what the men and women in uniform
1224. 49:46were doing and how they were doing it
1225. 49:49and and um now the downside to that
1226. 49:53obviously is if you have journalists
1227. 49:56embedded in your um units they you have
1228. 49:59to protect them you have to feed them
1229. 50:01you have to move transport them and move
1230. 50:03them
1231. 50:04around and um you don't want them saying
1232. 50:08things that would put our troops in
1233. 50:10Jeopardy by revealing what was going to
1234. 50:12be done next or that type of thing and
1235. 50:15Tori was persuasive and and eventually
1236. 50:18dick Myers and I both liked the idea and
1237. 50:20we agreed and she said about doing it
1238. 50:23and did it very very well um and I think
1239. 50:27uh that an awful lot of young
1240. 50:30journalists men and women uh were
1241. 50:33willing to put themselves at risk and
1242. 50:35and and uh you have to credit them for
1243. 50:38that they had a chance to see uh what
1244. 50:41how truly Magnificent the men and women
1245. 50:43in uniform are the wonderful job they do
1246. 50:45how how well they do it how how
1247. 50:47professional they are how proud they are
1248. 50:49of what they do and that they they are
1249. 50:52good people they're they're people that
1250. 50:54live next door to all of us and uh and
1251. 50:57and I thought so we decided that was a
1252. 50:58good idea we did it and and for some
1253. 51:01long period it worked rather well you
1254. 51:05remember probably how the media covered
1255. 51:07Vietnam yes and now you've been through
1256. 51:10this uh if the Secretary of Defense
1257. 51:12comes to you in the future and
1258. 51:14says what should I do we're faced with
1259. 51:16this again would you recommend embedding
1260. 51:19to I would I would I think that that
1261. 51:23um an awful lot of the journalists have
1262. 51:26never served in the military and I think
1263. 51:28they probably regardless of what they
1264. 51:31wrote or what they saw or what their
1265. 51:33editors wanted them to write um they
1266. 51:37they saw how truly wonderful these young
1267. 51:40men and women are who who volunteer to
1268. 51:42serve our country and I think that's
1269. 51:44good because these people in journalism
1270. 51:47have a responsibility they're going to
1271. 51:48be writing for the rest of their lives
1272. 51:50probably and and if they inside know
1273. 51:54that these people are good people people
1274. 51:56that they're decent and that they're
1275. 51:58hardworking and that they're Brave and
1276. 52:00that they're trying to do what's right
1277. 52:01sure the the people in the military make
1278. 52:03mistakes you bet
1279. 52:06um will they see things that are going
1280. 52:09to be not positive for the military or
1281. 52:12for the administration or for the Armed
1282. 52:13Forces generally yes they will um do
1283. 52:17they get pressure from their editors who
1284. 52:19are competing to sell newspapers or get
1285. 52:22um advertising people to support their
1286. 52:24television programs uh yeah they get
1287. 52:27pressure and and the old story is if it
1288. 52:29bleeds it leads and sometimes people get
1289. 52:31in a hurry and they want to have it fast
1290. 52:33but not right um but can you live with
1291. 52:36that
1292. 52:37sure I would recommend they do it you
1293. 52:39mentioned Tory Clark and there is a one
1294. 52:42little story in here where she has
1295. 52:44mentioned and uh it it's it's
1296. 52:48um two reasons I want to bring it up one
1297. 52:51you're the Secretary of Defense and you
1298. 52:53have a relationship with everybody else
1299. 52:55in the defense department on a level of
1300. 52:57you're the Mr secretary I assume did
1301. 52:59anybody call you Don oh some friends do
1302. 53:02in the Pentagon oh sure and they call
1303. 53:04you Ry and all that well the story I
1304. 53:07want to ask you about is the Tory Clark
1305. 53:08Story the day of 911 M you'd been
1306. 53:13rescuing people and you'd been at the
1307. 53:15Pentagon until 11:00 at night and she
1308. 53:17asked you if you'd called your wife do
1309. 53:20you remember this I do first when you
1310. 53:23say I've been rescuing people I was out
1311. 53:26there a very short period of time I I
1312. 53:27went out to see what had happened I
1313. 53:30helped out briefly and got right back to
1314. 53:31my office I do it was I don't know what
1315. 53:34time it was 10:30 or something at night
1316. 53:36you say 11: in the morning 11 in at
1317. 53:38night yeah yeah yeah and we'd had a
1318. 53:41tough day and the country had had a
1319. 53:42tough day and hundreds and hundreds and
1320. 53:44indeed thousands of people had been
1321. 53:46killed our building was smoking and and
1322. 53:49burning and they were still pulling
1323. 53:51people out of the uh the charge remain
1324. 53:55of that area where the uh American
1325. 53:58Airlines plane hit our our building and
1326. 54:01I'd gone back to the office and we were
1327. 54:03were trying to sort through I wanted to
1328. 54:07keep the building open I didn't want the
1329. 54:08terrorists to shut us down and we were
1330. 54:11trying to see if that would be possible
1331. 54:13and and that type of thing and at some
1332. 54:16moment she looked at me and said have
1333. 54:17you have you called uh Mrs are
1334. 54:20and I just said
1335. 54:23no and she blurted out not Mr secretary
1336. 54:27not sir she just blurted out you son of
1337. 54:31a and it was a stunner and I I
1338. 54:35don't know what I said but I probably
1339. 54:37said you've got a point but I've talked
1340. 54:39to Joyce about that since uh my wife and
1341. 54:42uh she said it never crossed her mind
1342. 54:45we've been married what 56 years now
1343. 54:48that was a decade ago 46 years or
1344. 54:50something she said she knew where I was
1345. 54:52she she she were was hearing reports uh
1346. 54:55I knew where she was she'd been at the
1347. 54:57defense intelligence agency with a bunch
1348. 54:59of Defense attaches getting a briefing
1349. 55:02and
1350. 55:06uh she didn't have any doubt in her mind
1351. 55:10but that but that uh I had things I had
1352. 55:13to do and so it was not a problem Tori
1353. 55:17was looking at it um Troy Clark was
1354. 55:20looking at it as a as a wife and and a
1355. 55:22spouse and it was a perfectly
1356. 55:25understandable uh reaction I suppose and
1357. 55:27I don't know what I said but I probably
1358. 55:29said you TOR I think you got a point
1359. 55:31that's what you said in the book is that
1360. 55:32right yeah um presidents youve worked
1361. 55:35around uh and OBS observed over the
1362. 55:39years now this is not a about politics
1363. 55:41this is a which president in your
1364. 55:43experience was the best suited to run
1365. 55:47the country not from a public relations
1366. 55:50standpoint but from a I mean you because
1367. 55:52you talk a lot in this book about
1368. 55:55Systems White House systems and uh the
1369. 55:57different meetings and all that you had
1370. 55:58but which one do you think had was best
1371. 56:00equipped to run the country you have to
1372. 56:02appreciate that they were all very
1373. 56:04different we have to remind ourselves
1374. 56:07that the times they served were notably
1375. 56:09different so the the skill sets or the
1376. 56:12backgrounds that might be most
1377. 56:15beneficial at one period might not be
1378. 56:17quite as beneficial in
1379. 56:20another and and they also were different
1380. 56:23at different stages of their Pres
1381. 56:24presidency if they served over time they
1382. 56:27might have come in with some strengths
1383. 56:30and weaknesses and as it evolved those
1384. 56:32weaknesses might have very well
1385. 56:34disappeared and and their their
1386. 56:36strengths became greater so it's a hard
1387. 56:39question to answer I think that
1388. 56:43that from the time he was
1389. 56:46there um the the fact that Gerald R Ford
1390. 56:49was had such basic human
1391. 56:52decency and um
1392. 56:56was was so naturally a human being that
1393. 56:59people could appreciate I think that
1394. 57:02that coming in as he did when the
1395. 57:04reservoir of trust had been drained in
1396. 57:06our country uh following the only
1397. 57:09president in our history to
1398. 57:11resign um was a terribly difficult thing
1399. 57:14and I think he he helped heal the
1400. 57:17country and that was important I
1401. 57:21I I mean Ronald Reagan unquestionably
1402. 57:24had a strategic sense that
1403. 57:28was directionally correct by my standard
1404. 57:32and uh enormously helpful to our country
1405. 57:35in terms of ending the Cold War uh he
1406. 57:38did an awful lot that was right and and
1407. 57:41uh I mean Dwight Eisenhower um had a uh
1408. 57:47largely successful presidency Richard
1409. 57:49Nixon my goodness enormously talented
1410. 57:52man with with a wonderful mind and a
1411. 57:55seriousness of purpose uh and and
1412. 57:58brought a enormously talented team of
1413. 58:01people into government who affected the
1414. 58:03course of government for decades
1415. 58:05thereafter people like Henry Kissinger
1416. 58:07and Bill styman and alen Greenspan and
1417. 58:11so many others we're out of time that
1418. 58:12why did you not take the job of the
1419. 58:14committee to reelect the president under
1420. 58:16Richard Nixon back in 72 I was
1421. 58:19interested in the substantive side of
1422. 58:20government as opposed to the political
1423. 58:22side and uh I just didn't have any
1424. 58:24interest in doing it we're out of time
1425. 58:27the book is called known and unknown a
1426. 58:29memoir Donald rumel is our guest thank
1427. 58:31you very much for joining us thank you
1428. 58:35[Music]
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