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Psychiatrist Explains: Psychology Behind Cheating & Choosing Wrong Partner |Dr. K |FO541 Raj Shamani — Transcript

by Raj Shamani · 23,675 words · 3,582 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00You know, one of the stupidest things
0:01right now is [music] that people date
0:02people they're attracted to.
0:04>> It's stupid.
0:04>> Dumbest thing on the planet. Let me ask
0:06you something. What are you attracted to
0:07eating?
0:07>> Something that looks fascinating.
0:09>> And is that always what you want to be
0:10eating?
0:11>> Of course not.
0:11>> We're just attracted. People have never
0:13asked [music] themselves. Why am I
0:15attracted to this?
0:17>> Dr. K, MD, MH, psychiatrist, and founder
0:21of Healthy Gamer. If you want to
0:22understand why we love the way we do,
0:24who we're drawn to, why people cheat or
0:27why falling in love feels harder than
0:29ever, this episode is for you.
0:32What we'll [music] discover, and there's
0:33a lot of research about this, right? So,
0:34if you had a parent who's abusive, the
0:37likelihood that [music] you will date
0:38someone who is abusive is way higher
0:40than one.
0:41>> 70% of divorces are filed first [music]
0:43by women. Why do you think? What's
0:45happening here?
0:46>> If you ask a woman, "What are you losing
0:48with a divorce?" [music] They say, "I'm
0:50losing a relationship." If you ask a
0:51man, "What are you losing with a
0:52divorce?" They say, "I'm losing a life."
0:56Why do people So like you're at work
0:58[music] and you have this like positive
0:59interaction with someone at work. You go
1:01home and you have problems and then you
1:03go to work and it's a [music] break from
1:04these problems at your marriage. There's
1:06kind of this polarization of like
1:08Neutron [music] and Depositron and
1:09Electron happens all the time between
1:11work and home. But I think the other
1:12real reason that happens is because we
1:14as dudes suck at touching our wives.
1:17>> Why do you say so? Because we [music]
1:18don't spend time learning how to touch
1:21women or men in a way to make them feel
1:23good. Cuz touch [music] is way more than
1:25sex.
1:25>> Are women better at touching?
1:27>> Yeah, because they do it more.
1:29>> The culture of aggressive sex and
1:33touching has really really increased.
1:36Why is that?
1:36>> First thing that's happening is
1:38pornography addiction is on the rise.
1:39And one of the things about pornography
1:41is over time people will watch more
1:43hardcore pornography. And the thing
1:45about [music] violent pornography is
1:46that it activates you more which is
1:48sometimes what people kind of need.
1:52>> What is the scientific way of charisma?
1:54First thing about charisma is that
1:55discipline. Having a vision, the ability
1:57[music] to articulate. So you have to be
1:58good at talking. Another important
2:00aspect of charisma is the ability to
2:02handle [music] in times of crisis. Even
2:04things like emotional regulation, EQ.
2:06What's really interesting is that
2:07physical attraction [music] is on there,
2:09but it's pretty low on the list. It's
2:11outweighed by all of these other things.
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3:21[music]
3:24Why do people cheat? Oh, so so many so
3:27many reasons. actually just a couple of
3:29important ones.
3:30>> So like you're at work
3:32>> and you have this like positive
3:34interaction with someone at work
3:36>> and you get rewarded. You guys are kind
3:38of like
3:39>> so you get these positive interactions
3:40and then you go home and you get
3:42nagging. You go home and you have
3:43problems and then you go to work and
3:45it's a break from these problems at your
3:47marriage, right? So like you guys are
3:49going through a rough patch and there's
3:50someone at work who's like, "Oh my god,
3:52that must be so hard." And they're
3:53supportive, right? So there's kind of
3:55this polarization of like neutron and
3:57depositron and electron happens all the
3:59time between work and home. I think um I
4:04absolutely think you know the person who
4:05gets the worst version of me is my wife.
4:09I also get the worst
4:12uh I don't think I actually this is
4:13interesting. I don't get the worst
4:15version of her. [laughter]
4:16>> Wow. Um,
4:18but I wonder if that's because I'm just
4:20better at managing her [laughter]
4:22than some people in my family. Right.
4:25So, some people just really just they
4:26just don't get [laughter] along. Um,
4:29>> but if you're watching this, please tell
4:30us.
4:31>> I'm thinking about it. I was like, wait,
4:33I I don't think it's reciprocal. I I
4:34think she gets the worst version of me.
4:36Um, but I think we're sort of I hope
4:39we're okay with it, but she also gets
4:41the best version of me. So, I realized
4:42some time ago that this happens where,
4:45you know, I'm coming here to this
4:46podcast and I'm smiling. I'm like, "Oh,
4:48but but there's a part of my brain
4:50that's getting exhausted and when I go
4:52home, um, she's been just so supportive
4:54because when you do this stuff, I don't
4:55know what you're like, but I'm like
4:57wiped when I'm done with this." And, and
4:59so she'll get the most tired version of
5:01me. She'll get the neediest version of
5:03me and and things like that. And then
5:05noticing that, I think, is really
5:07important because then I want to give
5:08her the best. So, I we did this thing. I
5:11love it. I think it's a great idea.
5:14>> So, you know, Christmas Eve
5:16>> and you know there's like Mother's Day.
5:17>> Yeah.
5:18>> So, my daughters and I, we invented a
5:21holiday called Mother's Day Eve.
5:23>> Okay.
5:24>> Which is like the day before Mother's
5:26Day, the night before Mother's Day.
5:28We're going to stay up all night and
5:30we're going to celebrate Mother's Day.
5:31>> How sweet.
5:32>> Yeah. So, we did this thing where she
5:34was like taking So, we we planned the
5:35day and and then, you know, when she
5:37came home, she was like in the bath and
5:38stuff. Then we set everything out and
5:39then we celebrated. We had a party.
5:41That's also where I learned, you know, I
5:42used to think I don't like parties. I
5:44love parties. What I don't like is
5:46people.
5:48I don't like the people who come to
5:49parties. You know what's great is to
5:50have a party just with the people that
5:52you like, like three people, like wife
5:54and your two kids. It's awesome. It's so
5:56much fun. You order all of your favorite
5:57food. You don't have to worry about this
5:58uncle is coming and he's allergic to
5:59this. You just get all your favorite
6:00food. It's great. So, I try really hard
6:02and I think people should, too. like we
6:04take it we take our relationships for
6:06granted and I think it's okay to give
6:08your spouse the most unregulated version
6:12of yourself
6:14but we shouldn't just accept that right
6:16so I think it's okay that like when I'm
6:18my most authentic vulnerable angriest
6:21self like I can do that with that with
6:23my wife because she's a part of me we're
6:25partners but then we absolutely need to
6:27be intentional about making that up
6:31right so if I'm putting her through that
6:32she deserves the other end as well more
6:35than anyone else on the planet. So I
6:37think she I hope I try the hardest to
6:40make her happy because she's the one who
6:42like makes this possible like in a very
6:45practical way like she's like watching
6:47my children right now and I'm going to
6:49be exhausted. She's going to be stressed
6:51out because she's been watching my
6:52children all day
6:53>> or her children too.
6:55and and then you know she's the one who
6:56if I tell her like hey I'm tired like
6:58she's going to and so for that that
7:01effort on her part I want to make it
7:03like worthwhile
7:05>> you know there's a thing called mother's
7:07touch starvation
7:09>> uh I've not heard of that but I'm
7:11intrigued to say more
7:13>> I've heard of touch starvation
7:14>> yeah so it's about the mother gets so
7:18physically overwhelmed with the kids the
7:20full day with that touch and like the
7:23full day she's with and then there's so
7:25much load which is cognitive load and
7:26physical load and there's emotional
7:28labor around it that
7:30>> by the end of the evening she gets
7:32extremely tired
7:34>> now she hates when even the partner
7:36touches her
7:38>> but from the inside she's starved and
7:40she's craving for that
7:42>> yeah that physical intimacy
7:44>> but the moment partner touches it's just
7:46annoying
7:46>> so she doesn't want the partner to touch
7:48but somehow she wants it
7:51>> yeah it's it's a difficult phase a lot
7:53of mothers go through it.
7:54>> Yes.
7:54>> So why does that happen? Like why a
7:58woman who becomes a mother,
8:01it almost gets to a point where she gets
8:04irritated by the husband who's sleeping
8:08right next to her, but at the same time
8:10she wants the maximum support and
8:13intimacy at that time.
8:14>> Yeah. So I think there's a couple things
8:16there. First thing that we got to
8:17remember is that so my wife and I have
8:20talked about getting divorced like four
8:22times. M
8:22>> so like everyone thinks we have like
8:24like oh he's inventing holidays for me.
8:26Oh my god, you should be like him.
8:28[laughter] So like I you know we we have
8:30challenges
8:31>> and and you know it gets bad. Um and uh
8:37so I I and I think one of the hardest
8:39times is when you've got young children.
8:41>> Okay.
8:42>> So people just don't understand like
8:44everyone thinks like you know kids are
8:45great and like kids are great. Like I
8:47love my kids. Um, and I really think
8:49they're great, but also like the hardest
8:52time in my life has been when we have
8:54young kids. And and the reason for that
8:57to understand is just that you as a
8:59human are not
9:01appropriately resourced.
9:04Like sleep is important for your basic
9:06functioning. Like for 70 years of your
9:09life, you're going to be sleeping
9:12basically 8 hours a day. the three years
9:15that you have young kids at home, you're
9:17not gonna and the human beings just fall
9:18apart. So everything gets really really
9:21challenging. Everything gets really
9:22difficult. So one thing that happens is,
9:24you know, our brain
9:26regulates stimulus
9:30that requires energy.
9:32>> So
9:34um I'm just thinking about my own
9:36relationship. So like I burp and it
9:38really annoys my wife and and so you
9:41know but her tolerance of that is like
9:44depending on how much she slept and what
9:46else is going on. So the key thing is
9:48you know especially when you've got
9:49young kids at home there's just all
9:51kinds of stuff that is not functioning
9:53the way that it's supposed to function.
9:54People gain weight and people get moody
9:56and and thankfully I don't think we
9:57dealt with postpartum depression or
9:59anything like that but some sometimes
10:00that kind of stuff happens. And so it's
10:02just a really physiologically and
10:05psychologically trying time. There's
10:07also all kinds of stuff about, you know,
10:09are you being a good parent and then
10:11like something scary happens is like you
10:13dislike your kid, you get angry with
10:14your kid. Um, and then you feel like a
10:16bad parent, but it's like normally angry
10:18with your kids. Like it's like
10:19evolutionary, right? Um, and that's part
10:22of the reason that's part of how they
10:23learn how to behave. And you know, my my
10:26mom used to be like, I don't know if
10:28that makes sense. you know, she and and
10:31so sometimes my mom would be like, "You
10:33know, your kids, they'd be so much
10:34easier if you just smacked them once.
10:36All [laughter] it takes is once." And
10:38she's a really loving mother and she's
10:40like just a really saintly person as a
10:43pediatrician, as a doctor, and has taken
10:45care of kids all of her life. But she's
10:46like, "You just smack them once, they'll
10:48be so much better." We're like, "Mom, we
10:49don't do that anymore." [snorts] Um,
10:52so I I think that
10:55there's all kinds of things that go on.
10:56So, you want a certain kind of touch and
10:58you're not being supported. And this is
11:01where this may be a little bit of a hot
11:02take, but I think the other real reason
11:04that happens is because we as dudes suck
11:07at touching our wives.
11:10Like, we suck at it.
11:11>> Why? Why do you say so?
11:13>> Because we don't spend time learning how
11:16to touch, and this is going to sound
11:17kind of weird, like touching women or
11:20men in a way to make them feel good.
11:23Because touch is way more than sex.
11:26We don't learn like like I I I went in
11:29for a hug and you gave me a handshake
11:31and then we did a hug, right? But like
11:33like we don't know like we don't learn
11:34and something weird happened where we as
11:36a society got really like homophobic at
11:38some point and then dudes stopped
11:40touching each other. Like there's no
11:42like male contact anymore. Like I
11:44remember when I went to India in 2003,
11:47there was a friend of mine at the ashram
11:48who was getting married and I saw
11:50something really weird. So two of his
11:51friends came up to him. He had his arm
11:53around two of his friends and both of
11:56his male friends were rubbing his belly
11:58like this and they were making jokes
11:59about how he's going to get fat because
12:01now he's going to get married and things
12:02like that and I was like what is this?
12:04[laughter]
12:06I think in India it's like a little bit
12:08better where like men used to touch each
12:11other.
12:11>> Yeah.
12:13>> But so we just don't know like you know
12:16we don't know how to give like a foot
12:17massage. we don't know how to give a a
12:19shoulder massage. Like what kind of
12:20touch like like and sometimes people are
12:22over stimulated and they just don't want
12:24to be touched. And then this is also
12:26where we also like suck at emotional
12:28support.
12:29>> You know we don't know how to do that.
12:31>> True. So, so many times like you know if
12:34your female partner is telling you it's
12:38so hard to be a parent, you try to fix
12:40it because like what we're socialized as
12:43men to do is like this person is problem
12:47man responsible man fix thing bad I help
12:51I make it go away stop feeling that way
12:53I feel uncomfortable with the way that
12:55you are feeling unhappy wife unhappy
12:58life unhappy I fix it we don't know how
13:01to Listen, we don't know how to like
13:02hold space. So, I think some of that
13:05like mothers touch starvation I think
13:07just is cuz we suck. Dude,
13:09>> are women better at touching?
13:11>> Yeah, I think on average probably
13:14because they do it more,
13:17right? But how do they know how to
13:20comfort a man by
13:24just being there?
13:26>> So, touching them in the right way
13:28versus a man just suck at it like
13:30>> Yeah. So, so we learn they learn
13:32different skills. So, they're good at
13:33emotionally supporting each other too.
13:35>> Um, and so we do there's one kind of
13:38emotional labor that men are socialized
13:41to be better at, which is something
13:42called emotional containment.
13:45>> So, if if someone is falling apart, you
13:48as a man can handle that. So, so even
13:51when you know
13:54men and women around me, men are better
13:56at this. So, if someone around you is
13:57falling apart, you can handle that more.
14:00Um, we're we're worse at like emotional
14:03support in ways that are not
14:04containment.
14:06And I don't know. I mean, I I think like
14:08when we think about, you know, so your
14:10dad and your mom gave you hair oil
14:12massages, right? Who gave you more hair
14:14oil massages, right?
14:16>> And then it's And when you were sick,
14:19like did they pat you to help you sleep?
14:21Who did that?
14:23>> Both of them, but mom more. Yeah.
14:24>> Right. So I think that like like moms do
14:26it more. So it's not like our fault.
14:28That's important to understand is like
14:30we suck at it, but it's not our fault
14:32that we suck because we're just never
14:33like who's who's going to teach you?
14:36>> Like are we going to we going to you
14:37going to we going to reposition the
14:39chairs and [laughter]
14:41>> right? We have like like just think
14:42about podcast culture. Like what are we
14:44doing? We have a thousand podcasts out
14:46there and everyone's like teaching all
14:47this about motivation and neuroscience
14:49and like you know ego and dark triad but
14:52we're like we're not teaching people how
14:54to touch.
14:55>> Yeah.
14:57True. So we
14:59>> I [clears throat] want to because you
15:00said dark and touch. I I have a
15:02question. Okay. Which is
15:05>> little deviating from here but I think
15:06it's an important one here. Right. It's
15:10the culture of aggressive sex and
15:14touching is has really really increased.
15:17>> Yeah.
15:18>> Why is that? Like why almost I was
15:21reading something that
15:23>> this is more in teenagers now and Gen
15:26Alpha and Gen Z
15:27>> that
15:29>> they almost think that
15:32women think that choking is almost
15:35normal.
15:36>> Yeah. and they would want to have that
15:39because that's how things are done. And
15:41men have the subtle pressure that they
15:43need to be more aggressive because they
15:44think that that's what women want.
15:46Probably both of them don't want but
15:48they both think that it's normal.
15:51>> Yeah. So I don't know how normal people
15:54think it is. So it's absolutely on the
15:57rise.
15:58>> It's on the rise. It's not like
15:59everybody, but it's
16:00>> so what I've heard a lot of is the
16:02amount of nonconsensual
16:06non-disgust
16:08>> um asphixxiation
16:10which is choking you know during sex is
16:14like skyrocketing. So people will be
16:16just engaged in in sexual activity and
16:19like someone will start choking and like
16:20they're like what is going on?
16:22>> Um and nobody will point it out or
16:24>> or they will. So so so there's I think
16:26there's a lot of different things. So
16:28one thing that I've learned as a doctor
16:29is that very few things have one cause.
16:32Everything is multiffactorial. Like at
16:33the beginning we were like you know why
16:35are some people this way right? It's a
16:36genetics it's upbringing. It's all got
16:38whatever.
16:39>> So I think first thing that's happening
16:41is we have to understand the evolution
16:42of pornography.
16:44So part of the reason that erectile
16:46dysfunction is on the rise is because
16:47pornography consumption is on the rise.
16:49Porn pornography addiction is on the
16:52rise. Um and part of the reason that
16:54pornog is and there are a couple of
16:55reasons for this. One is also that with
16:57things like Only Fans,
16:59you get activation of certain parts of
17:03your brain that did not used to get
17:05activated with pornography. So 50 years
17:09ago, you can look at like a Playboy
17:11magazine, but there's no relationship
17:14between you and what you see. Now, this
17:17person is interacting with you.
17:19>> So, we're starting to see parasocial
17:21relationships form, right? So now your
17:23brain, not only do you get a physical
17:25stimulus, but you get potentially an
17:27emotional stimulus. They express
17:29gratitude. You start to have regular
17:31contact. So you It's interesting you
17:34asked like how do affairs happen?
17:36There's a certain science behind this
17:37that we can get into later. But if you
17:40look at the science of how people fall
17:42in love and how people the science of
17:45how people fall in love explains how
17:47people have affairs. The science of how
17:50to fall how we fall in love also
17:52explains parasocial relationships.
17:55So people are getting more into
17:57pornography. And part of this is like
17:59the democratization and technology and
18:01all that good stuff too, right? Cuz now
18:02if you're you're a young woman, like a
18:06relatively
18:08I don't I wouldn't say it's easy, but a
18:10relatively easy way for you to make a
18:13decent amount of money is for you to do
18:16an only fans, right? So there's a reason
18:18why many women are doing it because the
18:21opportunity cost is pretty good compared
18:23to their other situation and there are
18:25other factors like jobs are not keeping
18:27up with inflation so you have to do
18:28something on the side and might as well
18:30do that kind of thing. Um
18:33so pornography is changing and then the
18:36other thing that happens. So now let's
18:38talk a little bit about one other factor
18:39which is that
18:41there's a dopamineergic tolerance that
18:44happens with pornography and this is not
18:46just pornography it's basically other
18:48things online where there's this thing
18:49called online drift. So if you look at
18:51your algorithm,
18:53if you watch one video about a topic
18:56that is polarizing,
18:59the algorithm will give you way more of
19:00that.
19:02>> Right? So there's kind of a a joke that
19:04sometimes people in in our community
19:06will say, which is like if you watch a
19:07single Jordan Peterson video, not saying
19:09he's good or bad or anything like that.
19:11Um I he has a fantastic course on
19:14personality, which helped me a lot when
19:16I was a resident.
19:18If you watch a single one, you're going
19:20to get a ton of it, right? So things get
19:23polarized, things get extreme. And one
19:27of the things about pornography is if
19:28you watch the same kind of pornography,
19:30your brain will acclimatize to it. So
19:32over time, people will watch more
19:34hardcore pornography. You need to be
19:36stimulated by it more. So what's what
19:40we're starting to see is that violent
19:41pornography is on the rise. And I
19:43suspect that there's a really good
19:46reason for the rise of erectile
19:47dysfunction, pornography addiction,
19:49because as we're starting to use
19:51pornography to regulate our emotions
19:53more, as we're starting to use it to
19:55activate our dopamine systems more, as
19:58our life falls apart in the real world,
20:01we need more of a hit.
20:04And the thing about violent pornography
20:07is that it activates you more, which is
20:10sometimes what people kind of need
20:12because if it's mild, it doesn't pull
20:14you out of your life the way you need it
20:16to cuz you've kind of built up some
20:18tolerance to it.
20:20So then as we watch that, right, then it
20:23starts trending. Then it becomes normal.
20:25Then then you see it more then then you
20:29think it's normal. M so I asked you a
20:31question a long time ago about
20:35you know something about you you
20:37mentioned something about people are
20:39more discontent why is that and I think
20:41the reason is because they're seeing so
20:43much success all around them so back in
20:46your case you had number one number two
20:49and number three but now if I if I go
20:52online I'm going to see Raj Shamani age
20:5529 absolutely crushing it and then I'm
20:59going to see Dr. K who's crushing it
21:01less but still crushing it and I'm going
21:03to see this guy, right? I'm going to see
21:04that guy. I'm going to see all these
21:06people who are really successful. So,
21:08we're we're starting to get bombarded by
21:13really distorted versions of reality.
21:17And so, as you watch a lot of
21:19pornography, you think this is normal.
21:22Or the other thing that can happen is
21:25now your brain has started to form
21:26associations
21:29which is like a little bit about how
21:30like fed fetishes work and things like
21:32that. So once you you know this is a
21:35little bit vulgar but sometimes you know
21:37people will be attracted like teenagers
21:39will frequently be attracted to older
21:41women not like old older women but like
21:43and the reason for that is because when
21:45you hit puberty
21:47like your friend's mom is around right
21:49so then like when you're you have all
21:51these hormones flowing through you and
21:52things like that and you start to form
21:53associations which is why like mils are
21:56a thing right and so you form there and
21:58there's behavioral reinforcement there's
22:00like reinforcement for some of these
22:01things so like Now, this is what turns
22:03you on. And you're also seeing cuz
22:06you've never had sex before, all the
22:08women that you see having sex seem to be
22:10enjoying it. So then you try doing it
22:12the first time you have sex and the
22:14woman is really confused and it kind of
22:17turns you on or whatever. So, so there's
22:19all kinds of factors that are going into
22:21this.
22:22And then then the problem is on the on
22:25the woman's side, if this is what all
22:28the dudes are doing, if they're watching
22:29this kind of porn, then maybe I want to
22:30live up to that. And this is really
22:33common where, you know, there's fear of
22:35rejection, there's wanting to make your
22:37partner happy. There's also
22:39socialization
22:41to make your partner happy, right? I've
22:44had female patients who are and let me
22:46know if this is like okay or not okay
22:47but you know I I've had female patients
22:49who are 70 years old and um part of a
22:52psychiatric intake is to do a sexual
22:55history. It's like questions we should
22:57ask everybody like doesn't matter how
22:58old you are and people are stunned
23:00because they're like hi hi like you're
23:01talking to a seven-year-old woman about
23:02her sex life. Like, yeah, because
23:057-year-old women can't get pregnant and
23:07so if they have sex, they stop using
23:08condoms and then they can still get
23:11sexually transmitted infections. You
23:13know, there's like COVID outbreak. Like,
23:15you go to a nursing home in the United
23:16States, like you go to some of these
23:18retirement communities in places like
23:19Florida, you'll have like herpes
23:20outbreaks there. It's a real public
23:22health thing, right? And it's kind of
23:24weird. People don't think about it, but
23:26like they, you know, that's just part of
23:28being a doctor. And sometimes I'll have
23:31patients who have never had a
23:3270-year-old woman who's like never had
23:33an orgasm. And and how do you get to
23:36that point? It's because when this
23:38person was growing up, and we'll talk
23:39about it, like I know it makes some
23:41people uncomfortable, but the whole
23:42point of a psychiatrist is you should be
23:44able to talk about whatever, right? Um
23:47and then as I try to understand that um
23:51you know because when they were growing
23:53up it wasn't like a like your sexual
23:56pleasure was not a part of marriage,
23:59right? Like it's just not you're
24:01supposed to keep your husband happy is
24:02like the the the world that she grew up
24:05in.
24:07So women are socialized to
24:12keep their man happy, right? we see this
24:14on Instagram and here's how you keep
24:15your man happy or whatever.
24:17>> Do you think more women want this
24:19aggression in men?
24:21>> And
24:24so, you know, you're asking a lot of
24:25like
24:27general questions about populations.
24:29>> Mhm. My overwhelming experience is that
24:32people are individuals.
24:34So, I I've I've had some patients who
24:38are totally fine with, you know, BDSM
24:41and things like that. Um, I've had some
24:44patients who, it's really interesting
24:45from a dating perspective. Like I had,
24:47um, one male patient who,
24:51>> you know, we were talking about his, he
24:52was in his late 20s and we were talking
24:54about his dating life and he was telling
24:56me like one day he came that's not so we
24:59were working on another issue, but he
25:01came in and he's like, "Look, this thing
25:02happened to me where I was on this date
25:04and you know, I was being intimate with
25:06a girl and she like slapped me and then
25:09I was like, I'm not into that." And she
25:10slapped me again. She was like trying to
25:12make me mad because she like wanted me
25:15to hit like she wanted me to lose
25:17control and that's what she wanted and
25:18it was like so I it's hard for me to say
25:22um population like in in population wise
25:25like it could maybe they want it more. I
25:27I don't know. It's not something that
25:30I've seen. But have you seen any
25:32difference between people who want this
25:35aggression versus people who don't want?
25:37Is there some pattern or some behavior
25:39about their childhood or the way they're
25:41living or their profession or something
25:43which is a pattern between people who
25:48like being aggressive versus people who
25:51don't [sighs]
25:54sort of so so I I think that this is
25:56where we have to get once again like a
25:57bit technical but I would say people
25:59being aggressive is not all one group of
26:02people. So there's different kinds of
26:03things right? So there's absolutely
26:07situations where
26:10there's this psychological principle
26:12called the repetition compulsion.
26:13>> What is it?
26:14>> Which is
26:17why people end up dating the same kind
26:21of person like over and over and over
26:22again. Right. So you'll hear some people
26:25say like there's no good men out there
26:28>> or like all women are
26:30>> Yeah.
26:31And what people don't realize is this is
26:34this is so interesting. I'm working on a
26:36lecture on this now. You know, one of
26:38the stupidest things right now is that
26:40people date people they're attracted to.
26:43It sounds weird, right?
26:44>> It's stupid.
26:45>> It's dumb. The dumbest thing on the
26:47planet. Let me ask you something. What
26:49are you attracted to eating, Raj?
26:53>> What What do you want to eat?
26:55>> Something that looks fascinating.
26:56>> Okay, great. And is that always what you
26:59want to be eating? Like I I'm attracted
27:02to a cookie, right? Should I eat a
27:03cookie?
27:04>> No.
27:04>> Okay.
27:04>> It's bad for me.
27:05>> Yeah. So, what you may be different cuz
27:08I know you're sad on the inside or
27:10whatever, but [laughter]
27:12but
27:12>> I haven't painted this.
27:15>> My bad. [snorts] Okay. But but so if you
27:18think about like you know you have all
27:19these things like so if I are you are
27:22you when you wake up in the morning what
27:25do you what are you attracted to
27:28like in terms of what do you want to do
27:29how do you want to spend your time
27:31>> the moment I get up
27:33>> I want to eat something really really
27:35junk and sugary
27:36>> great stuff like that and then what
27:38>> but I don't end up eating
27:39>> yeah yeah you don't you don't end up
27:41eating what do you what do you want to
27:42do next
27:44>> then I just want to sleep
27:45>> okay right So, so you're attracted to
27:47sleep and you're attracted to junk food.
27:49Should you
27:51>> engage in those things?
27:52>> No, of course not.
27:53>> Okay. But so your brain is like, I want
27:55junk food and I want sleep and I want to
27:57spend time on Instagram and I want to
27:58spend time on TikTok. But we don't do
28:00those things that bad for us.
28:02>> But when it comes to love in
28:03relationships, that's where our brain
28:04gets it right.
28:06>> It's crazy, right? We're just attracted
28:09>> and we're just going to listen to the
28:11brain because when it comes to love,
28:12that's when the instinct is 100%
28:15correct.
28:16And when it comes to like cell phone and
28:18dopamine and food, it's wrong over
28:20there. But in this one dimension, it's
28:21right. It's so crazy. So this is what's
28:24really wild. People don't understand.
28:26People have never asked themselves,
28:28why am I attracted to this? And what
28:31I've discovered is that a lot of people
28:33have this thing called the repetition
28:34compulsion, which is that we have
28:36certain relationships which kind of get
28:38messed up early in life. And then what
28:40we try to do is fix those situations in
28:43the future. So, we talked about this
28:45with you sort of, right? Where there's
28:47this wound over here and now you're
28:50trying to correct it over here, but no
28:52matter how much you try, it doesn't work
28:54100%.
28:55>> And that happens all the time in
28:57relationships. So, like what what we'll
28:58discover and there's a lot of research
28:59about this, right? So, if you had a
29:01parent who's abusive, the likelihood
29:04that you will date someone who is
29:06abusive is is high higher than normal.
29:09Way higher than normal. So what happens
29:11is and literally the way this looks
29:13psychologically is like I tried my whole
29:16life to get let's say my dad
29:21to like love me
29:24and I failed. But now that this person
29:27is behaving in the same way I'm going to
29:29make them love me because if I can
29:30succeed over here I'll be healed. Does
29:32that kind of make sense?
29:33>> Yeah.
29:34>> And so and there's other elements to
29:36this too just the kind of conditioning
29:38that we're comfortable with. So, here's
29:40what's really weird is when I work with
29:43patients who are trauma survivors,
29:46the first reaction they have to the
29:49relationship they should engage in is
29:51discomfort.
29:54It's weird. Like, what are you doing?
29:57>> Like, what are you doing getting me a
29:59gift?
30:02Cuz their association with gift is dad
30:04used to get me gifts after he hit me and
30:07now you're getting me a gift. Like what
30:08the the the thing we'll say in the US is
30:11waiting for the other shoe to drop. So
30:13they they run away from the very things.
30:16And for dudes too, it's like like you
30:18know I I'll work with a lot of men who
30:20have something called avoidant
30:21attachment which is like they have
30:22difficulty with intimacy. So they want
30:24sex to be a transactional relationship.
30:26And when someone like when a woman is
30:28like warm with them or it like you know
30:31like if they're having a hard day, she
30:34like takes your head and puts it on her
30:36chest, not as a
30:38sexual move, but just as like let me
30:40hold you as a human because you're
30:42having a tough time. They like get
30:43really confused. They want a a woman
30:46who's really sexy, right? Not a woman
30:48who's like caring cuz that's like ew
30:50that's gay, [laughter]
30:52you know? A and so there are a lot of
30:54these weird things that happen in
30:56relationships where we're attracted to a
30:59particular thing but we need to stop and
31:01ask ourselves why is my brain attracted
31:04to this thing and often times you know
31:07you'll we kind kind of understand this
31:09colloially where we'll say this person
31:11has daddy issues or this person has
31:13mommy issues and if you've got daddy
31:14issues you're going to date a lot of
31:16people who are abusive or whatever. If
31:18you have mommy issues, you're going to
31:20date people who are I I don't know,
31:22abusive or motherly or I I don't know
31:24exactly what. So, there's a lot of stuff
31:26about attraction that like often times
31:29what we need to do is date the people
31:31that we're not initially attracted to.
31:33And when you look at successful
31:35relationships, that'll often times be
31:37the case, right? So, we didn't start out
31:41>> this way. And this is kind of funny. So
31:44my wife and I basically had one rule
31:47when we were dating. Both of us had one
31:50rule, which is that we're not going to
31:51end up with an Indian person. And we're
31:54both Indian. Like we're both [laughter]
31:55good. I was like, there's no way I'm
31:57marrying an Indian girl. And she's like,
31:58there's no way I'm marrying an Indian
32:00guy. It's like Indian guys are like, you
32:02know, they're like mama's boys and they
32:03want everything done for them and stuff
32:05like that. There's no way I'm marrying
32:06an Indian girl. It's like I can't handle
32:08that. And [snorts] so we really bonded
32:10over that like, you know, so so it's so
32:12interesting. We come up with these rules
32:14early on and this too is kind of like
32:17silly. Like what do you know about a
32:20successful relationship and you're
32:21coming up with all these rules about
32:23what you deserve and stuff like that.
32:25And this is where we can get to the
32:26science of of love and relationships
32:29because none of that stuff is what leads
32:33to a successful relationship. Anything
32:34that you see on a dating app has nothing
32:37to do with a successful relationship.
32:39And here's the really scary thing. The
32:41dating apps can't select for the things
32:45that result in relationships. Okay. I I
32:48don't Yeah.
32:49>> Right. So, it's kind of weird like So,
32:51let me ask you this.
32:53>> So, Okay, great.
32:56>> You're pretty good at your job, right,
32:58Raj?
32:58>> Mhm.
32:59>> If I were to look at your resume,
33:02would I would a resume be able to
33:05capture
33:07who you are in the workplace?
33:09>> No.
33:11So that's a huge gap, right? So a piece
33:13of paper that lists certain qualities.
33:16>> So we say 13 million, 14 million
33:18followers, that's very impressive. But
33:21even though I know that sitting with you
33:23is completely different.
33:24>> True.
33:25>> Even 14 million doesn't represent who
33:27you are. Maybe 20. [laughter]
33:30>> Let me know if I'm going too far. Okay.
33:31>> No, no, you can you can go any okay with
33:33it.
33:34>> Yeah. Right. Right. So, so in the same
33:36way if we don't expect and this is the
33:38real tragedy and you people may have
33:40like encountered this, right? Where like
33:41someone gets hired and you interview
33:43someone and their resume looks great but
33:46then they like show up and they don't
33:47know what's going on. We had I I have a
33:50quick story about this. So,
33:51>> you know, I was on the I I did a little
33:54bit of work. I wasn't on the committee,
33:56but I did some application review when I
33:58was in residency at Harvard. And so I'd
34:00look at applications and we'd take a
34:02look at who to interview and who not to
34:04interview and it's you know some people
34:05would have really great application. I'm
34:08thinking about one student in particular
34:10and you know so they asked us they're
34:11like you know what do you guys think
34:13about this person they've been rotating
34:14with us for a little while and we're
34:16like eh and so this is cool about this
34:18is what I love about psychiatrists is
34:19like we didn't say we didn't like them
34:22because we didn't know how to say it.
34:23>> Yeah.
34:24>> We like there's nothing wrong with them
34:26but we didn't feel enthusiastic.
34:28>> Yeah. So, one of the psychiatrists, this
34:30brilliant uh doctor named Laura, so she
34:34was like, you know, I would not want to
34:37teach her for 4 years. She's annoying.
34:40And so, she was like the boss, right?
34:42And she was like, she's just annoying.
34:44Like, you can't capture that on a
34:47resume. She's like, I just wouldn't want
34:48to teach her like like it's not fun. And
34:52you know, she's like, if I I like the
34:54feeling that I get of supervising her
34:56overnight on call is like I wouldn't
34:58want to do that. [laughter]
35:00>> And it was like little things like she
35:01she always needed to she was very
35:03accomplished,
35:04>> but she had to let everybody know.
35:06>> It's like we're trying to we've got 15
35:08patients talk. We don't need I know
35:10you're brilliant and you read this paper
35:13about how trauma can manifest in this
35:15particular way, but that's like not
35:17relevant to what's going on right now.
35:19They're overdosing on heroin. like we
35:21don't need to understand trauma like in
35:23this moment. So they were just adding a
35:25lot of irrelevant information and and
35:27things like that
35:28>> showing that they're smart for no
35:29reason. Yeah.
35:30>> So the application is one thing and then
35:32the person is something else. And then
35:34along come dating apps and but the
35:35dating apps have a problem which is that
35:38they can only collect certain
35:41information.
35:42>> Yeah.
35:42>> They can only display certain
35:44information. And now they've got a
35:45bigger problem because first there's
35:47Tinder and now there's Hinge. So now
35:49Tinder is competing with Hinge. And the
35:52closer that you get to actually judging
35:54the success of a relationship, the less
35:57user friendly you become. I want to
36:00swipe through photos and quick bios. I
36:02don't want to look at a 126 page
36:04personality analysis with Kundi and
36:07astrological whatever, right? Like if we
36:09look at the process of matchmaking, who
36:10knows if it's scientifically correct or
36:12not, but it's like it's like pretty big,
36:15>> right? You can't reduce that to a
36:16resume.
36:18And so if we look at the scientific
36:21things that lead to relationships,
36:23they're not the things that we can
36:25select for really. And and so a lot of
36:28people will be attracted to things,
36:29right? They'll say, "Oh, I deserve this
36:31or I want someone who's 6 feet tall and
36:33makes this much money and and this and
36:34that or I want a woman who does this or
36:37has a certain physical proportions or
36:40whatever." But that's not what
36:41relationships are made of. Like if you
36:43go to you know like I go to the
36:45playground with my kids you look at the
36:47people who are mating and it's like
36:49normal people man right like a little
36:53bit pet you spared a word in [laughter]
36:56>> moms and dads like
36:58>> you know you know before we go deeper in
37:02science of
37:04>> love right I want to understand
37:06attraction because you you pointed out
37:08very interesting thing and I could
37:10>> while I could focus on you at the same
37:12day I could think about like 20 of my
37:14friends who have like different sort of
37:16attraction and different things and I
37:18think
37:19the more I talk to them the more I feel
37:22like everyone is broken in their own way
37:23and I've not been able to figure out
37:25why. So I'm going to throw out these
37:27situations in front of you and tell me
37:28why this happens. Okay.
37:30>> Okay.
37:30>> Because
37:31>> let's start from the point where you
37:33said [clears throat and cough]
37:34>> a lot of teenage boys are attracted to
37:36older women.
37:37>> Okay.
37:38>> Right. Why? because a lot of older men
37:41are attracted to younger women.
37:43>> Okay.
37:44>> So, what happens in men that when they
37:46are young, they're attracted to older
37:47women?
37:48>> That's a great question.
37:48>> And then when they're old, they're
37:49attracted to younger women.
37:51>> So, so I think when when you're talking
37:52about teenage boys, right? So, we talk
37:54about sexual development, right? So,
37:57when you look at when you're a teen when
38:00you're a 13-year-old boy, who are the
38:02women who are the women that you see,
38:07right? So the girls in your class are
38:08still girls.
38:09>> Yeah.
38:10>> They're not women. But the teachers are
38:12women. The the woman that you know you
38:15like if you're 13 maybe you're like you
38:17know like a teacher is maybe like 35 or
38:19something like that. So they're like
38:21still like attractive women. So it's
38:22just exposure like who are which
38:26which adult women will you be be exposed
38:30to as a teenager?
38:33>> Teachers.
38:33>> Teachers is going to be number one,
38:35right? and maybe somebody's mom. I think
38:38when it comes to older dudes being
38:40attracted to younger women, I think
38:42there's a couple of different things
38:43there. The first is that generally
38:45speaking,
38:47you know, as we get older, we get less
38:49attractive just as humans. So, it's not
38:52just that older dudes are attracted to
38:55younger women. I think just generally
38:56speaking, if you were to like, you know,
38:58objectively rate a 50-year-old man
39:01against a 25-year-old man or a
39:0250-year-old woman against a 25-year-old
39:04woman, sure, everyone is beautiful in
39:06their own way, but there's a certain
39:08like beauty to youth, which is probably
39:10like biological in nature, and we've
39:13we've evolved to be attracted to people
39:15who are like fertile,
39:16>> right?
39:18>> So, there's probably an element of that.
39:20I think what's kind of interesting is
39:21that I don't know that
39:25all, not all, even the majority of men
39:27are necessarily attracted to younger
39:29women. I think there's a certain subset
39:31of people who select for like younger
39:34women. So that either they're physically
39:36attractive or it's more of like a
39:38relationship thing or it's like this I
39:40see a lot where like dating a younger
39:43woman will make you feel young. So,
39:46here's what happens with a lot of men is
39:48that is you get when you're young, you
39:50don't have like responsibilities and
39:52stuff, right? And it's just about
39:56[laughter] So, so then what happens is
39:57like, so you know, you got a 25-year-old
40:00dude and you fall in love and things are
40:02great and then you're like, you know,
40:03you're you're in residency because you
40:06were told by your parents to be a doctor
40:08and then then like you get married,
40:11right? And then like things get
40:12challenging. We talked about how, you
40:13know, maybe your wife has postpartum
40:15depression. You start to not have as
40:18much fun at work. Like you start to, you
40:20know, spend all all day like arguing
40:22with insurance companies if you're in
40:24the United States. And then like you
40:26start to pay mortgages and then you have
40:27kids and they need to go to private
40:29school and then like so then like your
40:30life gets like so the wife that you have
40:33becomes a part of your life, but that
40:36freedom of 25 isn't really what you're
40:40living anymore. And then you wake up one
40:42day and you're 45 years old and you have
40:44a midlife crisis and you're like, "This
40:46is not like you're working a lot." And
40:47like, sure, you're a doctor and you have
40:49a lot of money, but you don't have quite
40:50as much freedom. And then now you
40:52discover that you're 13-year-old
40:55daughter is smoking pot and is dating a
41:00dude who is not of the ethnicity or
41:02religion that you're comfortable with.
41:03>> Yeah.
41:04>> So then you're your you and your wife
41:06have have an argument about it, right?
41:09And then like then you meet there's a
41:1123-year-old nurse
41:13at your job
41:15and she's kind to you. She's supportive.
41:19She's young. She doesn't nag you. Hey,
41:22did you get the air conditioner fixed or
41:25whatever? Right? You say you're going to
41:27do it. And then there's a certain amount
41:29we talked about how you also, you know,
41:30offer the worst parts to your romantic
41:33partner.
41:35So then, you know, there's like that
41:37that 23-year-old represents a different
41:40kind of life. A life without mortgages,
41:42a life without air conditioning, a life
41:44without children,
41:47you know.
41:48>> Yeah.
41:49>> And there's a certain amount of there's
41:52we'll get to this, but there's different
41:53kinds of love. Love is not one feeling.
41:55There's like an emotion and then there's
41:57like a commitment. There's different
41:59kinds of of what we call love is
42:01actually distinct psychological
42:03experiences.
42:05So,
42:07and then you want to go back to that
42:08dopamineergic love.
42:10>> Yeah.
42:11>> So, one of the scary things is that you
42:13know why like people don't fall in love
42:15anymore? Because we use cell phones. So,
42:18so I I don't know if you know this, but
42:20have you ever been in love?
42:22>> Yeah.
42:22>> Okay. So, what's it like? You remember
42:25the early stages of being in love? What
42:27was it like to be in love?
42:30all like
42:32exciting, jittery, butterflyish. Yeah.
42:35>> Like I want to do things for her. I want
42:38to be there. I want to make sure that
42:39she doesn't get
42:40>> like any inconvenience in her life.
42:42>> Yeah. So, so when you were with her, you
42:46remember like you would see her?
42:48>> Yeah.
42:49>> Like you know when you're going to see
42:51her and then when you do see her.
42:53>> What's that like when you see her? like
42:55you're meeting her somewhere and you
42:56like walk in the door and she's there or
42:58you're waiting for her and the door
43:00opens and she walks in. What's that
43:01like?
43:04Do you remember that feeling?
43:05>> Yeah. Like it just
43:09first let me know like the the amount of
43:11time that I take to go meet her that's
43:16way more exciting
43:17>> like that waiting period
43:20>> where hey tomorrow I'm going to see her.
43:21So the cool thing is that right there is
43:24dopamine. So anticipation
43:27is regulated by dopamine.
43:29>> So if I use heroin,
43:31I want heroin. I'm excited. I'm going to
43:33get high tomorrow.
43:34>> Yeah.
43:35>> Craving is dopamine. Pleasure is
43:38dopamine. Right.
43:41>> You know, that's all it takes.
43:43>> Yeah. [laughter]
43:44>> That's all it takes. You don't even need
43:47to have second. Just touch. It's like,
43:49oh my god.
43:49>> Yes. Yes. It's like like when we're just
43:51walking and then suddenly the hand rubs
43:54with I was like
43:56[laughter]
43:56>> yeah that that feeling is like yeah
43:58>> right so so that like the neuro like
44:00what's going on in your brain that's
44:02dopamine. So the scary thing is as we
44:04use like social media and like
44:05technology and stuff like that our
44:07dopamineergic circuitry is getting
44:09messed up and as our dopamineergic
44:11circuitry gets messed up people are not
44:14having those feelings anymore. M
44:17>> so you you'll see like so one of the
44:18things you know one of the bits of
44:20advice that I'll give people who are
44:21trying to fall in love is don't use your
44:23cell phone for an hour before you go on
44:25a date which is like the exact opposite
44:27of what most people do. They're on the
44:28cell phone until the date starts and in
44:31bad cases during the date. So I'll tell
44:34people like you know this was back when
44:36I was in Boston but they take the subway
44:38the metro and then it's like okay get
44:40off like 1 hour away and walk to the
44:43date and don't touch your cell phone.
44:45So, you need time for your dopamine
44:46stores to actually regenerate. And you
44:48will literally neurochemically
44:51set yourself up to fall in love because
44:54people don't fall in love anymore,
44:56right? They like date and it's like I've
44:58been dating and like it's this and then
44:59like dating has become like a job
45:00interview. What do you how much money do
45:02you make and what do you do this and do
45:03you want to have kids and do you want to
45:04do this, right? It's not like this
45:06organic feeling of falling in love is is
45:08governed by dopamine. That phase is
45:09dopamine.
45:11>> That is so true,
45:13>> right? It's hard.
45:14>> It's Yeah.
45:17>> So then there's a couple of other steps.
45:18So the other things that we know about
45:20falling in love are
45:22shared emotional experience
45:27is what leads to love. Not like
45:29onetoone, but that's an important part.
45:31So there's a one of my favorite studies
45:32about this is they had people go on a
45:35first date
45:36>> in the middle of a bridge.
45:38>> But there are two kinds of bridge. One
45:40is a stone bridge, one is a rickety
45:42wooden bridge.
45:43And on that rickety wooden bridge, you
45:46know, like you're not like you're being
45:48manly, but like both of you are like a
45:50little bit scared because it's like
45:51shaking. It's like it's not going to
45:53fall, but it's like eh.
45:54>> So, so that that experience creates
45:58>> the same emotional experience in both of
46:00you.
46:01>> And it doesn't even have to be good.
46:02It's just both y'all have to feel the
46:04same emotion because then that forms an
46:06empathic connection. And so this is why
46:09I see this all the time in rehab where
46:11like addicts are going through all these
46:13like withdrawals and negative emotions
46:15and we're processing trauma and we're
46:16forming all these deep bonds. You form
46:18like these really great bonds. When you
46:19go through something with someone,
46:21right, you feel bonded to them for life.
46:24And so that bond that like when when you
46:27like, oh yeah, like there was that that
46:28year in college that was like so hard
46:30and like this person was there for me
46:32and you feel bonded. It's not sexual
46:33even. It's just this is how bonds form.
46:36So, that's something that a lot of
46:38people miss because if you think about a
46:40date, you know,
46:42you know, sometimes I'll have patients
46:44who are on the autism spectrum and if
46:46they go on a date with somebody else on
46:47the autism spectrum and both of them are
46:49equally anxious, they can form a great
46:50bond, right? But, but a lot of times
46:54what'll happen is like one person, you
46:56know, if you're going in and you're like
46:57interviewing someone, I'm going to be
46:58like, "Are you good enough for me?"
47:01that emotional energy is going to be
47:03very different from the other person or
47:06if it's the same. So like you know I'll
47:09work with some people who are like power
47:10couples and it's like are you good
47:12enough for me and then the other person
47:14is like are you good enough for me? Oh
47:15this is going to work great. Where are
47:17you going to be in 5 years? I'm going to
47:18be here. Where are you going to be in 5
47:19years? I'm going to be here. It's going
47:20to work great.
47:22>> My wife and I bonded over disliking
47:24dating Indian people
47:26>> you know. So you have to have a shared
47:28emotional experience. So, I think this
47:30is where some of these things like
47:31escape rooms and stuff like that, like
47:33even movies, like why do people go on
47:35It's interesting, right? Why do people
47:36go to the movies on dates? Like, think
47:38about it for a second. You're not
47:39actually interacting. The reason that
47:41works is because the movie creates a
47:42shared emotional experience,
47:45>> right? Like, it's it's tense and then
47:47like, oh my god, like this and this and
47:49you it doesn't have to be a romcom.
47:50>> Yeah.
47:51>> Right. But you're laughing together,
47:52you're crying together, you're at the
47:54edge of your seat together.
47:56And so, that's like why that works. It's
47:58really interesting.
48:00So that's another a big part. Um,
48:02another big part is like repeated
48:04unplanned interaction. So this is
48:07repeated unplanned interaction. So if
48:11you look at like this is why affairs
48:12happen. Like if you think about dating,
48:14dating, dating has pressure.
48:17>> Falling in love doesn't.
48:19>> Yeah.
48:19>> Right. So dating is like there's
48:21expectations.
48:22>> We have to schedule.
48:23>> Yeah.
48:24>> Are you coming? Are you I'm 15 minutes
48:26late. Oh my god, this person is 15
48:28minutes late. He's disrespecting my
48:29time.
48:30>> Yeah.
48:31>> So, think about that for a minute. When
48:32you're 15 minutes late late to a date,
48:35you're already sabotaged because this
48:37person feels disrespected. You feel
48:39apologetic.
48:41We think that's a match. It's not a
48:42match. It's not how people fall in love.
48:44If you ever seen a romcom where one
48:46person is disre respected, another
48:48person, but maybe they start that way,
48:49but then circumstances bring them to
48:51the, "Oh, now you're disrespecting me
48:53and I'm apologetic." Things flip, right?
48:55Right. So there's always empathic
48:57connection.
48:58>> Yeah.
48:59>> Whereas falling in love, so when you
49:01show up at work every day and this
49:03person is there, repeated unplanned
49:04interactions, there there's no pressure.
49:07And when there's no pressure, emotions
49:09can arise organically and naturally.
49:13So this is why like you know a lot of
49:14times like people who who
49:18you're dating you're creating this weird
49:20artificial thing and like falling in
49:22love and this is what predisposes people
49:23to affairs is is and this is also why
49:26like people have affairs at work. So
49:28what's unfortunately quite common is you
49:31know doctor has affair with nurse at
49:33work. Really common.
49:37And what's going on there? It's like
49:38we're both working in the trenches. Oh
49:39my god this patient is coding. Like,
49:41let's see if we can like we're doing
49:42chest compressions and things like that.
49:44Oh, thank God it's over. Like, we both
49:46feel relieved. Hey, good job. You No,
49:48you did a great job. Oh my god. Like,
49:50fantastic.
49:52Hey, do you want to grab something to
49:53eat? Oh, I'm like I'm going down the
49:55cafeteria. Oh, I'm starving. Let's go.
49:58And then you go and you sit and then you
49:59just talk. There's no dating,
50:02>> you know? I'm old enough to be your dad.
50:05[snorts]
50:05But something starts to happen. But
50:08what's there in what's there in for that
50:11nurse? Because you explained the
50:12psychology of this man who's going
50:15through midlife crisis and this young
50:17woman who's 23 year old looks like no
50:20mortgage, no kids, nothing like an
50:23exciting life which probably this person
50:25has left. He's 45.
50:28[clears throat] This 23 year old woman,
50:30she can get anyone. Why is she falling
50:33for this 45y old guy?
50:35>> But remember, so remember the actual
50:36formula. The formula is shared emotional
50:38experience. The formula is unplanned
50:40interaction.
50:42>> Right? So those are there. We're both in
50:43the trenches together. We're doing it
50:45together. Then there are a couple of
50:46other things to to consider. The first
50:49is the big advantage of the doctor is
50:52that he's not a 23-y old dude.
50:55Like 23-y old dudes
50:57>> like like I mean some women are in to
51:00dudes their age,
51:02>> you know, but it's very common for women
51:04to date older. Yeah. like a few men who
51:06are a couple years older. That's
51:08probably because of cognitive
51:09development. Like men are a little bit
51:10slower, so maturity is slower. Um, but
51:13then also like he's got a career, he's
51:16got money. Um, there's some I I don't
51:19love these studies like these studies
51:21that look at populations and ask women
51:22what they're attracted to. There's a
51:24there's a problem when you survey a
51:26woman about what she's attracted to.
51:28That's very different from what she ends
51:30up with. So if I survey people about
51:33what kind of job would you want,
51:36>> that's very different from the job that
51:37people end up with, right?
51:39>> So some of these survey data, I think
51:40they're just very bad quality data and
51:42it's a like a lot of this clickbait
51:44stuff.
51:44>> What do women say and then what do they
51:46end up with?
51:47>> So here's a couple of great things. This
51:49isn't this is a completely different
51:51>> um thing, but
51:54so
51:55the average sexual act is 3 to 7
51:58minutes.
51:59>> Okay.
52:00>> Okay. 50% of women do not want sex to
52:03last longer than 15 50 minutes. I mean
52:05the 15 minutes 50% of women want sex to
52:09be 15 minutes or under. So like this
52:11idea of like you know like people don't
52:13understand the numbers behind like
52:15actual sex. Now that's survey data.
52:18But I I think that uh
52:22you know this is where like what you end
52:24up being attracted to and who you fall
52:26for is not what you would select on a
52:29dating profile. And that's exactly why
52:31dating profiles like don't work because
52:33the people that we end up with like case
52:35in point with me and my wife and the
52:37funny thing that I I did this
52:38interesting kind of I haven't quite
52:39answered your question but I I started
52:41paying attention to the relationships of
52:43my patients.
52:44>> Mhm.
52:44>> And what I found is that every good
52:47relationship that my patients that I see
52:50in my patients they all start with a red
52:52flag. Mhm.
52:54>> Like just things that are like crazy
52:55like either some age gap relationship
52:58like you know I had one patient who's 21
53:00and he started dating a 16-year-old
53:03and now they're like happily married
53:05with like two kids and you know now it's
53:08fine. They're like both in their 50s but
53:11it started out and it's like that's kind
53:13of like no, right?
53:15And what I realized is that a red flag
53:18early in a relationship actually teaches
53:20you a lot more about a person.
53:24So if we have a problem early in a
53:26relationship, then we navigate that
53:28problem or it falls apart. Whereas if
53:30it's green flags at the very beginning,
53:32we go two years into relationship and
53:34then we have our first problem
53:37and then things fall apart.
53:39So I started to really examine this
53:41because it's like why are all these
53:43successful relationships starting with
53:44red flags? Another good example is oh
53:47yeah you know red flag is addicted to
53:50heroin and it's like should we date like
53:53if you're on your Tinder profile or h
53:54profile or whatever people use in India
53:56it's like hi my name is all I've been
53:59using heroin and trying to get clean for
54:01like six years [laughter]
54:03but like early on you know like it it
54:05tests a relationship. So I think you get
54:07to select for certain things like me
54:09mechanisms of conflict resolution. Is
54:12this person willing to grow?
54:14>> So this is such an anxiety that people
54:16have. So if you you find someone who's
54:18like a a great person on paper, one of
54:21the biggest anxieties about getting
54:23married is like will they change when it
54:25counts? You can answer that on day one
54:29if you take someone who
54:32is bad at something and you try to
54:33change them right at the beginning.
54:35Right? Right. So like like there's some
54:37weird things that we do like if we're
54:38just looking for green flags, we don't
54:40really get to see how we navigate
54:42conflict together. We don't get to see
54:44if this person is willing to change in
54:45the right way. You know, someone can be
54:48really successful but also really rigid
54:53and are they going to change? Are they
54:55going to continue? Like it's great that
54:57they work hard and they make x hundred
54:59thousands of dollars a year, but when
55:01you have kids, are they going to leave
55:02their job and support you or not? You
55:05can't know that if you just have
55:06straight green flags. Whereas early on
55:08with red flags when you tell them, hey,
55:10like
55:11>> I want you to,
55:13you know, move with me to this place
55:17and like I want you to leave your job.
55:19Are they willing to make that sacrifice?
55:21So I think there's a lot of stuff that
55:22we do that's like quite
55:23counterintuitive. Like a lot of the
55:25truisms about like dating and
55:26relationships just doesn't hap it's not
55:28correct.
55:31>> I'll ask you about rigid. Yeah. Yeah.
55:33And we'll we'll talk about that.
55:35[clears throat]
55:36But because we're talking about
55:37attraction and why people fall in love,
55:42counterintuitive to what you just told
55:44me, there are a lot of there are two
55:46types of cases which I see a lot in
55:50ultraachievers, men and women both.
55:52>> Okay. in my friend circle and people who
55:54I've met
55:56that there's some sort of thing that
56:01a lot of young successful people have
56:03developed. One is they only want because
56:07you also also mentioned like power
56:08couples, right?
56:09>> Yeah.
56:10>> A lot of successful individuals only
56:13want to date someone who trades up their
56:17status.
56:17>> Yeah.
56:18>> Like why is that? So, let let me ask you
56:22why not what's wrong with dating a
56:24loser?
56:25>> I don't know. So, I I think it depends a
56:28lot on
56:30what your value system is and what
56:34you're actually selecting for.
56:36>> So, here's like the crazy thing, right?
56:39So, if you look at falling in love,
56:44it's not a selection. That's not what it
56:47is.
56:48You can't choose who you love. If you
56:50did, then the world would be a very
56:52different place.
56:52>> Yeah.
56:53>> Right. If anything, if we look at like
56:55our parents' generation or two
56:56generations up, especially in India,
56:58like they learn to love. Like that's a
57:00completely foreign concept for kids
57:03nowadays. Like it's this idea of like
57:06you know, I'm attracted to this person
57:08therefore I should date them. No, you
57:09shouldn't, man. Who knows what kind of
57:12trauma is dictating that, right? What
57:15are you trying to prove?
57:17>> Yeah.
57:17>> Right. What are you trying to fix?
57:19There's something called a samscar,
57:21which is like an emotional wound from
57:24the past. There's some emotional energy
57:25where they're they're trying to
57:29compensate for something that happened a
57:31long time ago, right? So like I loved
57:34this person, they didn't love me back.
57:37And so like
57:40I'm going to I was a loser then and I'm
57:44never going to be a loser again. And if
57:46this person, if I'm dating this person,
57:47then I certainly am not a loser. That
57:49can be a part of it. A part of it can be
57:51ego, right? So as our hamara or as our
57:54ego starts to grow, right? So I am this
57:58thing now. I'm a tech entrepreneur and
58:00tech entrepreneurs don't date losers.
58:03They date
58:05people who are like in my league.
58:08Another part of it is a sense of
58:10security. So, it's like if there's a
58:14person who doesn't have money who's now
58:17dating me, they could be dating me for
58:19my money. But if I find someone who
58:20already has money, then they're not
58:22dating me for my money because they have
58:24their own money,
58:25>> right? So, like I'm removing that from
58:27the equation. I've seen all those
58:28things. They're all factors.
58:30>> Um,
58:32you know, which one is it for a
58:34particular person? Maybe all of the
58:35above. Another big factor is it's just
58:38what's done.
58:39So in Silicon Valley, trading up is what
58:42you do. Now that I'm a tech billionaire,
58:45tech billionaires date Bollywood
58:47actresses. That's what they do. That's
58:49it's what's done, right? So there's a
58:51certain social norm that now you're sort
58:53of living into. And a lot of these tech
58:56entrepreneurs, they have huge ego
58:57problems. I don't mean that in a bad
58:58way, but they're like there used to be a
59:01normal human. And I don't know if this
59:02makes sense.
59:05I want you to think about when humans
59:06evolved
59:0810,000 years ago. Your status in your
59:12tribe of 300 people, how high could that
59:15go?
59:17Right? You can only move from 300 to
59:19one. That's the maximum. There's no like
59:24you know
59:255 billion to 100. So this is the other
59:29thing that people don't really realize
59:31is that the psychological
59:35environment that our brain exists in
59:40is like not what our brain was designed
59:42for. And we'll see this on the on the
59:44flip side. I'll give you an example. So
59:46content creators, this is what's really
59:47interesting. So if you look at a content
59:49creator, you know, 99% of people can
59:52like you and 1% of people can hate you
59:55and that's enough to ruin your life.
59:57Yeah.
59:58>> Right. And the people don't understand.
59:59They're like, "Okay, like if 999,000
1:00:03people like you and 1,000 people hate
1:00:06you, that's nothing." Except the human
1:00:08brain, I want you to think about this.
1:00:11How many people
1:00:13need to hate you to ruin your life?
1:00:16Like, what do you think?
1:00:19How many How many people What? That's
1:00:20all it takes. So, this is what people
1:00:22don't understand about content creators.
1:00:249999,000 people liking me is great, but
1:00:27all it takes is one to ruin your life.
1:00:30So there's there's some economy of scale
1:00:33that starts to happen that like our
1:00:35psychology is not designed for. M
1:00:37>> so when I work with these people I'll do
1:00:38a lot of work around um and you know we
1:00:42started like this creator coaching
1:00:43program and stuff like that because
1:00:44there's like some weird stuff that is
1:00:46not like normal that we've learned how
1:00:49to deal with these people and like they
1:00:50have to understand these principles um
1:00:52that the human brain doesn't think
1:00:54probabilistically like that's why people
1:00:56buy lottery tickets right so there's all
1:00:59kinds of stuff for a particular person I
1:01:01don't know which of these things it is
1:01:03so that's a to a certain degree human
1:01:05tendency there's couple pieces of it,
1:01:07right? So, one is if I stratify
1:01:11into levels
1:01:12>> and I think like okay, at this level you
1:01:14do this, at this level you do this. This
1:01:16is really common in India because if you
1:01:18if you look at it like there's
1:01:20>> you know you have a restaurant where
1:01:23there's an entree that's like 6,000
1:01:25rupees and then outside you have a oneup
1:01:30guy who's selling something for 60
1:01:31rupees.
1:01:32>> So there's like classes.
1:01:34>> Yeah.
1:01:34>> Right. All over the world. Yeah.
1:01:36>> I think they're just like right next to
1:01:38each other
1:01:39>> and the gap is huge.
1:01:40>> Yeah. Our social stratification is
1:01:42really messed up.
1:01:43>> Yeah. So
1:01:45I think that when you're when you live
1:01:47in that kind of society, you're like,
1:01:48I'm a this kind of person. I'm not a
1:01:50that kind of person. And then when you
1:01:51get elevated, you're like, okay, now I'm
1:01:53elevated. Now we do this. Right? So it's
1:01:55like we we drink this, but once we make
1:01:58money, we drink Johnny Walker or
1:02:00whatever, right? There's like there's
1:02:02things that are done. So some of it is
1:02:04like social conditioning where now that
1:02:05I'm this kind of person, this is the
1:02:07kind of person that I should date.
1:02:10>> I think another part of it is ego. So
1:02:11this is the thing that's like basically
1:02:13human which is that you always move the
1:02:16goalposts, right? We talked about this
1:02:17earlier. We're like 1 million is we're
1:02:20celebrating today and is insufficient
1:02:22tomorrow. And it's like what?
1:02:23>> Yeah.
1:02:25>> Right. So the human being always wants
1:02:27more. And the reason you want more is
1:02:29because of the way that your brain, this
1:02:32is the real tragedy. The real tragedy of
1:02:34human beings is that we can adapt.
1:02:38So if I program a computer to be happy,
1:02:40it runs the same program every day as
1:02:42happy every day. Doesn't work with
1:02:43humans because we adapt. So I want one
1:02:47cookie. Now one cookie isn't enough. Now
1:02:49I want two.
1:02:50>> And that's because we developed this
1:02:51thing called tolerance. So like one
1:02:53cookie just doesn't give us the
1:02:54dopamineergic signal that it used to.
1:02:58And that's why there's like there's a
1:03:00certain techniques that we have to do
1:03:01like getting rid of our ego, right? And
1:03:03learning what the nature of contentment
1:03:05really is and learning that and this is
1:03:07where like you know these old meditators
1:03:09from Buddhism and Hinduism for thousands
1:03:11of years have been saying that you're
1:03:13it's never going to work. Satisfying
1:03:15your desires is never going to work.
1:03:19And one of the things that I'll say a
1:03:20lot is, you know, I mention a lot is
1:03:22like the happiness from your wedding day
1:03:25doesn't la last a lifetime. Yeah.
1:03:27>> The tragedy is that resentment from your
1:03:30wedding day will last a lifetime,
1:03:34>> right? I wanted this and I wanted to
1:03:38have this at the meal and you didn't
1:03:40want that and you didn't do this and
1:03:42like so so it's it's just it's a real
1:03:43tragedy. Really screwed
1:03:45>> cuz we can hold on to resentment for so
1:03:47long. Being content is a skill. It's not
1:03:49something we're born with. We chase
1:03:51dopamine. We chase these things. I think
1:03:54that okay now I'm like a tech
1:03:56entrepreneur. You're still the same. I
1:03:58mean whether you you kid.
1:04:00>> Yeah. Like when you take a dump, you're
1:04:03still the same person.
1:04:04>> Yeah.
1:04:05>> I I tell people sometimes they're
1:04:06surprising you. I'm like like you can't
1:04:08biopsy me and find a doctor. There's not
1:04:11a doctor in here. It's just like this
1:04:14label.
1:04:15>> And that's why when I work with these
1:04:16people like that's why they come to me,
1:04:18right? Cuz they have everything but
1:04:19they're still not happy. and then they
1:04:22watch a podcast like this. [laughter]
1:04:24>> Why do people get bored in a
1:04:26relationship? They then they chase
1:04:28another person and then
1:04:29>> so they start dating this one person,
1:04:31they get bored of it,
1:04:33>> then there's everything going fine in
1:04:35the relationship. There's nothing wrong.
1:04:37>> Yeah.
1:04:37>> They still dump that person and want to
1:04:40chase someone else. And it's almost like
1:04:43I did a we we made a real about it.
1:04:46There's a phenomena which is called
1:04:47monkey branching.
1:04:48>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:04:49>> You know about it, right? Yeah. So it's
1:04:51like you're in a relationship but you're
1:04:52already chasing someone else and the
1:04:55moment that other side is like sort of
1:04:58confirmed or somewhere then you want to
1:05:00dump this person and want to jump on
1:05:01another relationship because you keep
1:05:02getting bored of the same thing.
1:05:04>> Yeah. So monkey branching I think is a
1:05:05bit different. So monkey branching is
1:05:07like my understanding of it is is it's
1:05:10not breaking up. It's quitting your job
1:05:12when you've already accepted an offer
1:05:14somewhere else. Right. There's no period
1:05:16without right. Right. I'm not going to
1:05:18quit and then go look for a job. I'm
1:05:20going to find my next job and then put
1:05:21in my notice.
1:05:22>> That's what people do in relationships
1:05:23as well.
1:05:24>> Yeah. So, but why people get bored is is
1:05:26different. The same thing happens to
1:05:28that feeling of love that happens with
1:05:30everything else that's dopamineergic,
1:05:31which is that we get bored of it.
1:05:34>> So, the first time I play a video game,
1:05:35it's so much fun. Oh my god. But do I
1:05:38play that game for the rest of my life?
1:05:39Absolutely not. The first time you watch
1:05:41a movie, oh my god, it's so good. So
1:05:43what has to happen for a relationship to
1:05:45survive is that you have to transition
1:05:47to a different kind of love that has a
1:05:50different kind of like neurochemistry.
1:05:52So um there there's um agape love. I
1:05:55don't know if I'm pronouncing that
1:05:56right. It's like Greek. There's like
1:05:57aeros love. So like the Greeks did a
1:05:59really good job of sort of there's like
1:06:01a love that involves sacrifice, right?
1:06:05But that's different from the
1:06:06dopamineergic love. There's a love of
1:06:08like peace and contentment. That's
1:06:11different from the dopamineergic love.
1:06:14And so what you have to do in a
1:06:16relationship is you have to successfully
1:06:18transition
1:06:19from the dopamineergic love to other
1:06:22kinds of love. So hopefully if you're
1:06:24lucky somewhere in there,
1:06:26you know, being in love and loving
1:06:30someone are different. That make sense?
1:06:32>> Yeah.
1:06:32>> Right. So what ideally in a successful
1:06:34relationship, what you will do is
1:06:36transition from being in love to loving.
1:06:38Yeah.
1:06:50>> But this person gives me butterflies in
1:06:52the stomach. It's kind of like a
1:06:53neurochemical thing. And the problem is
1:06:55that people assume that that has some
1:06:57other significance.
1:07:00So the other interesting thing is you
1:07:01started fighting a lot. That's really
1:07:03common too. So this is the other thing
1:07:04that people don't you know people say
1:07:05there's a thin line between love and
1:07:07hate. kind of a weird neurochemical
1:07:09princ neuroscience principle, but if you
1:07:12look at your relationship to this
1:07:14person,
1:07:15>> it is governed by your emotion, right? I
1:07:18don't know if this makes sense, but your
1:07:19connection to this person is
1:07:20fundamentally emotional.
1:07:22>> Yeah.
1:07:22>> And so other emotions can take that
1:07:24place. So, so you're like love and anger
1:07:28can quickly replace each other and it's
1:07:30still the nature of your connection to
1:07:32this person is emotional and unless it
1:07:35has other forms of connection other
1:07:37forms of stability anger can easily
1:07:40replace love and then love can replace
1:07:42anger and this is why people I don't
1:07:44know if you've had friends or maybe
1:07:45you've gone through this who like will
1:07:47break up and get back together break up
1:07:48and get back together that's because
1:07:50their fundamental connection is
1:07:51emotional and emotions change and as the
1:07:55emotion changes, they get back together.
1:07:56If emotion changes, they break up. They
1:07:58emotion changes, they get back together.
1:08:00Right? So, a healthy long-term
1:08:02relationship is going to be one that the
1:08:05foundation of the relationship is
1:08:06actually not emotional. Some of these
1:08:09other aspects of sacrifice, commitment,
1:08:12right? This is what our parents and
1:08:14their parents did. You're committed.
1:08:17Might as well fall in love if you can
1:08:19find some way to do it,
1:08:20>> right? So, the commitment can come
1:08:22first. M
1:08:23>> it's a different kind of love. Your
1:08:25parents, your grandparents may have
1:08:27never been in love, but they love each
1:08:29other probably, right? So, it's a
1:08:31different kind of thing. You you speak
1:08:33about commitment.
1:08:34>> Yeah.
1:08:35>> And here's what's fascinating.
1:08:37If you look at a lot of research around
1:08:40it,
1:08:44relationships which are not marriage,
1:08:47majority of people who break that are
1:08:49men. Women are not women don't do more
1:08:53breakups as much as men do to get out of
1:08:55the relationship. But in marriages, 70%
1:08:59of divorces are filed first by women.
1:09:02Yeah. Why do you think what's happening
1:09:04here? Like when it's marriage,
1:09:07men don't want divorce as much as women
1:09:09want. But when it's a relationship which
1:09:12is not marriage, it's just somebody in a
1:09:14long-term relationship or a short-term
1:09:16relationship, men want to break up and
1:09:17women don't.
1:09:18>> Okay. So I was at a Have you ever heard
1:09:20of an organization called YPO?
1:09:23>> Yeah, I've heard.
1:09:24>> Okay. So I I was giving a talk at a YPO
1:09:27conference. So it's a group of
1:09:28entrepreneurs. So it's a young
1:09:29president's organization.
1:09:31>> So we started talking about this.
1:09:33>> So here's the really interesting thing.
1:09:34So sometimes people will take issue with
1:09:36that statistic that 70% of divorces are
1:09:38initiated by women. So here's the really
1:09:41interesting statistic. If women are so
1:09:46if women are more responsible for
1:09:49initiating divorce, what would you
1:09:52predict about homosexual relationships?
1:09:56Right. So if women are the problem,
1:09:59if there are two men who get married and
1:10:01two women who get married, what would
1:10:02you predict about the divorce rate?
1:10:08>> I don't think women are the problem. I
1:10:10think men just suffocate them to the
1:10:11score that at one point they do it. But
1:10:14based on this, I think just putting
1:10:17apples to apples, I think the women with
1:10:20women would have more higher rate of
1:10:21divorces than men with men.
1:10:23>> Right? So um and that's exactly what you
1:10:26find in the research. So 70, you know,
1:10:2850% of couples get divorced,
1:10:3230 to 35% of gay couples get divorced,
1:10:3470% of lesbian couples get divorced.
1:10:37[laughter]
1:10:38I think that's rough. Maybe it's 65% of
1:10:41lesbian couples,
1:10:42>> right? So, this is like really scary
1:10:44because oh my god, now we're saying
1:10:45women as but let's understand why we're
1:10:47this is just statistics.
1:10:49>> So, really interesting things. There's
1:10:52something called takatubo
1:10:53cardiomyopathy.
1:10:56>> What?
1:10:57So the risk of a heart attack
1:11:02cardiomyopathy is a kind of problem with
1:11:06your heart that can result in death.
1:11:08It's inflammation of the heart muscle.
1:11:10>> Okay?
1:11:10>> Happens to men way more than women.
1:11:14Happens after a divorce especially or a
1:11:17breakup. So there's a very acute risk of
1:11:20myioardial infuction or heart attack
1:11:23when a man gets divorced that is not
1:11:25there in the woman. at the same degree.
1:11:28So we have evidence on a physiological
1:11:31level that divorce affects men in a more
1:11:36negative way at least if you look at
1:11:38cardiac outcomes. There's also evidence
1:11:41that the inflammation that men
1:11:43experience post divorce is higher than
1:11:45women.
1:11:47So divorce is literally like a riskier
1:11:50life thing like it's a it's a health
1:11:53there's an acute risk of of takatubo
1:11:55cardiammyopathy there's a ton of
1:11:56research behind this first thing we have
1:11:58to understand is men and women are not
1:12:00the same biologically
1:12:01>> and and this is a good example of this
1:12:04second thing is if you ask
1:12:05psychologically when a man gets divorced
1:12:09if you ask a woman what are you losing
1:12:11with a divorce
1:12:13they say I'm losing a relationship ship.
1:12:16If you ask a man, "What are you losing
1:12:17with a divorce?" They say, "I'm losing a
1:12:20life."
1:12:22This is like they fundamentally men and
1:12:26women view marriage in a different way.
1:12:30There's other evidence that part of the
1:12:32reason that toxubiocardiamopathy
1:12:34happens to men more could be biological,
1:12:36but could also be because women have a
1:12:39wider support network. So a man will
1:12:42have maybe one person to manage them
1:12:45emotionally. Number one is mom and then
1:12:47we transfer to wife. So like the cost of
1:12:52divorce
1:12:54according to some research is higher for
1:12:56men. And I I don't mean financially. I
1:12:59mean like physiologically
1:13:02things like that. So So if you ask a man
1:13:05what is a marriage? It's not a
1:13:06relationship. It's a life. So they if
1:13:08you ask a man like what is a marriage?
1:13:10It's the play. It's the home that that I
1:13:12live in. It's a garage. It's it's a
1:13:15workshop. It's my kids. It's it's this
1:13:17kind of thing. Their whole their
1:13:19marriage is their life.
1:13:20>> Yeah.
1:13:21>> And for women, a marriage is a
1:13:23relationship. I I'm generalizing here,
1:13:25which I don't like to do. I hate to do
1:13:27this kind of stuff, but that's honestly
1:13:29what the research shows
1:13:31>> is that they they view these things
1:13:33differently. Um, and and what I think is
1:13:36really scary is like the reason I I sort
1:13:38of put some
1:13:41weight on this is because like even
1:13:42physiologically like the outcomes are
1:13:44drastically different.
1:13:46I don't think it's women's fault. This
1:13:48is not an issue of fault. This is just
1:13:51an issue of what the value of the thing
1:13:54is. And I'm not even saying one is
1:13:56greater or lesser. I'll be very clear
1:13:58here. Qualitatively these things mean
1:14:01different things on average to the
1:14:03average man and to the average woman.
1:14:05But why before the marriage
1:14:09they are less likely to break up versus
1:14:12postmarriage?
1:14:13>> I'm not sure. I I don't know.
1:14:15>> What do you think?
1:14:17>> Um more men break up, they leave.
1:14:20>> Yeah. I I don't know. I I mean I'm not
1:14:23sure. So So I can't think of
1:14:28>> I'll tell you my guess.
1:14:29>> Yeah. And my guess when I read this, it
1:14:32was more about I think it has to do more
1:14:35with social acceptance
1:14:38because when a man breaks up uh and
1:14:42without a marriage, it's not seen that
1:14:46in a negative light at all versus
1:14:48because then he's just maybe he's a
1:14:51stud. He's just walking around and he
1:14:53can have multiple options or whatever it
1:14:54is. It's not looked at in a negative
1:14:56light. But after marriage, man makes it
1:15:00his life. Yeah. This this wife, this
1:15:03woman, this kid, the family, this his
1:15:05whole identity and he don't he doesn't
1:15:07want to separate that in public eye. So
1:15:10he feels more shame.
1:15:11>> So even if it's a bad one, then he wants
1:15:13to be associated with it.
1:15:15>> Yeah. I think that that has a lot of I
1:15:17think there's a lot of weight to that.
1:15:18So I think if you look at broken off
1:15:21engagements, I think socially an
1:15:23engagement that's broken negatively
1:15:25affects the woman more than the man
1:15:27usually, right? So but in but I I I
1:15:31think there's I need more data really
1:15:33because what I'm curious about is what
1:15:36is the time frame of those breakups?
1:15:38>> Mhm.
1:15:39>> So when you say breakup, are we talking
1:15:41about really short relationships?
1:15:43>> Every it was just
1:15:46>> marriage versus non-marriage. That was
1:15:47the data bar. I I I know. But but that's
1:15:49what I'm saying is that data is not good
1:15:50enough. Right. So So there's some
1:15:54I've heard this stuff. There's some
1:15:55evidence of it. It's not great.
1:15:58>> Women will fall in love faster than men
1:16:02actually
1:16:03>> and then like men are kind of like slow
1:16:05to do it. And then when we fall in love,
1:16:07we are maybe fall in love a little bit
1:16:09harder and a little bit stupider. I'm
1:16:11not quite sure. So I'm I'm really
1:16:12hesitant for these generalizations. So,
1:16:14I'm really curious about about that
1:16:16statistic of men initiate more breakups.
1:16:18I'd want to see occur uh I'd want to see
1:16:21data on how long
1:16:24the relationship is. And I wouldn't be
1:16:26surprised
1:16:29if men are breaking up at the early
1:16:32stages of a relationship higher, but I I
1:16:35doubt that that curve is like even. Does
1:16:36that kind of make sense?
1:16:38>> So, I just need to see more data to
1:16:39really hypothesize. I don't know. But I
1:16:41I think maybe you're right that
1:16:44you know a man breaking off an
1:16:45engagement seems to affect the man less.
1:16:50>> And because we're talking about men and
1:16:53women, we're talking about love
1:16:54relationships and everything like
1:16:58>> what's harder today
1:17:01to
1:17:04for a man to get a partner or for a
1:17:07woman to get a partner because it's all
1:17:09country related. Okay. Because I was I
1:17:11was looking at countries like
1:17:14>> America and there are more men
1:17:16struggling and I was looking countries
1:17:17like Japan where more women struggling
1:17:20and then
1:17:21>> I countries like India where I think
1:17:23everybody's struggling who doesn't have
1:17:25>> Yeah. So I I think that's a very and I I
1:17:29don't mean this in a critical way that's
1:17:31a bad question. I mean the structure of
1:17:32the question is bad because it assumes a
1:17:36a univerat
1:17:38thing. who's who has it harder. I think
1:17:41a a better question is a better way to
1:17:44understand it is what are the ways in
1:17:46which it can be hard.
1:17:48>> Okay.
1:17:48>> So I I'll give you just a simple
1:17:49example. So like you know people will
1:17:52say like who has it harder right now men
1:17:53or women. I think they each have it
1:17:55harder in different ways. And I'm not
1:17:57even saying that it's equal. It's just
1:17:59like different dimensions of stuff
1:18:01right. So what makes dating hard for
1:18:03women? Women are more likely to be
1:18:05sexually assaulted. What makes it hard
1:18:08for men? Men are more likely to be
1:18:10accused of sexual assault. So I I think
1:18:13I saw one study where one out of five
1:18:16men was accused of sexual
1:18:19inappropriateness in the workplace.
1:18:22So people will ask like, you know, why
1:18:24don't men ask out women anymore? And
1:18:26it's because men are afraid.
1:18:29So So I I think that each gender what's
1:18:31going something is changing. So we used
1:18:32to get into relationships in a
1:18:35particular system that system has
1:18:38changed drastically and when we break
1:18:40the system the different pieces of the
1:18:43system are getting stressed in different
1:18:44ways and I I don't I don't know how to
1:18:48quantify
1:18:50the risk of accusation of sexual assault
1:18:54versus the risk of being sexually
1:18:56assaulted. Right? So, I I know it may
1:18:59seem like an easy thing.
1:19:01>> Getting accused is not as bad as getting
1:19:03assaulted,
1:19:04>> but I'm not sure about that. And and I
1:19:08say this as someone who has had patients
1:19:10that I have immense compassion for
1:19:12who've been through both. It's really
1:19:13shocking some people, what the weirdest
1:19:15thing that I ever learned about sexual
1:19:16assault is how non-traumatizing it is
1:19:19for 50% of people.
1:19:21>> See, people don't realize this. Like you
1:19:23look at like, you know, genocide. Not a
1:19:26100% of people who have been through
1:19:28genocidal situations wind up with PTSD.
1:19:31In fact, the minority do. I've had so
1:19:33many patients who've been assaulted and
1:19:36then they actually okay with it. And if
1:19:38I not that it was good or anything like
1:19:40that, they're it was like a bad thing.
1:19:43They're like, "Okay, like it was a bad
1:19:44thing. I'm going to prosecute the
1:19:46person, but I'm not like traumatized. I
1:19:48still am able like I'm I'm still able
1:19:50to, you know, I'm resilient." Some
1:19:52people are resilient. They're not broken
1:19:54by things like this. And that can be
1:19:56really confusing for a lot of people
1:19:57because everyone thinks I'm supposed to
1:19:58I'm supposed to fall apart, but I'm
1:20:00actually like, okay, it's a bad thing. I
1:20:02think I know it's a bad thing. I'm not
1:20:03saying I'm not pretending it didn't
1:20:06happen. Um, but I'm also like I'm okay.
1:20:10You know, it's a bad thing that
1:20:11happened, but I'm okay. So, I I I think
1:20:14that, you know, I I think the the
1:20:15structure of the question is is bad in
1:20:18the sense that you have to look at it
1:20:20closer. So, is it harder for men? Is it
1:20:24harder for women? I think the ways in
1:20:25which it is hard is different for from
1:20:27each person.
1:20:28>> Second thing is that I think um so
1:20:32part of the work that I do is in trying
1:20:35to help men not be creeps,
1:20:39[snorts] right? So, so like
1:20:41>> I was looking into the science of the
1:20:43ick. Have you heard of this?
1:20:44>> Yeah.
1:20:45>> Where it's like this girl is like this
1:20:47guy gives me the ick.
1:20:49That's a thing. So when I say like the
1:20:51creep is not net worth and the reason
1:20:53that I say it's not net worth or like
1:20:54the difference between harassment and
1:20:56and what's the other
1:20:57>> asking out.
1:20:58>> Asking out okay is not net worth because
1:21:00there's actually a lot of science about
1:21:02what gives people the ick and what
1:21:04constitutes harassment. So here's what
1:21:06constitutes harassment. Really simple.
1:21:10Number one is not having a safe out.
1:21:15So, if I ask out a girl and she never
1:21:19has to see me again, that's actually
1:21:21fine. Like, that's way safer. If I ask
1:21:25out a girl and we work together, that's
1:21:28less safe. Does that make sense? If I if
1:21:32I follow a girl to the bathroom because
1:21:36I I I'm nervous around asking her out to
1:21:39her friends and then she opens the
1:21:41bathroom door and I'm standing there and
1:21:43I ask her out, that is less safe, right?
1:21:47That's creepy.
1:21:48>> Yeah.
1:21:49>> Even though in my mind I may not realize
1:21:52I'm doing anything wrong, right? I I had
1:21:55a patient once who did this, [laughter]
1:21:57right? And it's like he doesn't he
1:21:59didn't understand.
1:22:00>> Yeah. Right? Cuz he's like, "Okay, like
1:22:02get her by herself and ask her out." So
1:22:05he's like following her and waiting for
1:22:07an opportunity. Like that's creepy,
1:22:09right? So So the first thing to
1:22:11understand is that harassment is
1:22:15a lack of safety.
1:22:16>> Second thing is harassment is
1:22:17persistence.
1:22:19So once I say no, am I going to ask you
1:22:21again? Am I That's what harassment
1:22:23requires. It's not like a one-time
1:22:24thing. It's like persistence.
1:22:27Um,
1:22:29that's the second thing. There are a
1:22:31couple of other things about the ick.
1:22:33So,
1:22:35I think a safe environment is like
1:22:37really important, right? So, so like do
1:22:41I feel so I I think this is where like
1:22:43asking a girl out while she's with her
1:22:46friends
1:22:47>> is the safest thing to do. And it's also
1:22:50like mega Chad move, right? walking up
1:22:52to like a group of women and being like,
1:22:55"Hey, I noticed you from across the
1:22:57room. I know it's insane. I would love
1:23:00to hang out with you sometime. Can I get
1:23:02your number?" Like, absolute Chad move.
1:23:04She can reject you, but she feels safe
1:23:06because she's with people, right? Even
1:23:08better is to ask a girl out when she's
1:23:10out on a date with her boyfriend
1:23:12[laughter]
1:23:13because then she's got to protect her,
1:23:14right? Like,
1:23:16right? Maximum safety. [laughter] Um,
1:23:19don't do that.
1:23:22I I want to insert a story here. Okay.
1:23:23There there's a friend of mine.
1:23:24>> Oh my god. [laughter]
1:23:25>> I It's It's an incredible story. Okay.
1:23:28>> And uh
1:23:30it's it's crazy. So, she went out on a
1:23:33date with her boyfriend, which is a
1:23:35long-term boyfriend, and they've been
1:23:37dating since a long time. And the
1:23:38boyfriend goes to the bathroom, and
1:23:40suddenly this guy comes up.
1:23:42>> Yeah.
1:23:42>> And approaches. And then the girl says
1:23:45that, "Hey, I'm here with my boyfriend.
1:23:47I'm sorry, this and that." And then the
1:23:49guy politely goes and sit there. Okay.
1:23:52The boyfriend comes back. The girl says
1:23:54the boyfriend sends a bottle of wine to
1:23:56that table with a note says, "You have
1:23:59an incredible taste." [laughter]
1:24:02>> That was And then this girl, she even
1:24:05fall fell in love with this this
1:24:07boyfriend like even more. [laughter]
1:24:09>> So bossy. So yeah, just coming back to I
1:24:12just wanted to put that in like
1:24:14>> it's a ballsy move.
1:24:16>> I [laughter] love it. So, so I I I think
1:24:18there's, you know, there's ballsy and
1:24:20harassment are not the same.
1:24:22>> If anything, like what's ballsy is being
1:24:24able to step back, right? Like that's
1:24:26that's what makes people feel safe.
1:24:29>> So, I I don't think it's just net worth.
1:24:30I mean, or people predisposed and I can
1:24:33totally understand that there's a lot of
1:24:34women who will say that in a comment
1:24:37section. This is the other problem. A
1:24:40comment section is not research,
1:24:43>> right? So, what is what is the actual
1:24:45behavior? So if anything, I mean, I've
1:24:50I've seen a lot of cases of like the
1:24:53opposite. So I want you to just think
1:24:55about this for a second, right? Let's
1:24:56say like it's hard hard to think of a
1:25:00good hypothetical. Let's just say you're
1:25:01a woman and you're 29. If a rich dude
1:25:04starts pursuing you, what do you think
1:25:07your instinctive reaction is going to
1:25:09be? Like pursuing you a lot,
1:25:12>> right? So like this is hard for a lot of
1:25:14men to understand. Like I think a lot of
1:25:16women would feel very afraid because a
1:25:19rich dude is a powerful dude. A rich
1:25:22dude is a dude who's used to getting his
1:25:23way. So like I I've seen lots of cases
1:25:26where like just because a rich guy is
1:25:27like super into you, like some women are
1:25:30charmed. Some women are terrified. Like
1:25:32what is the association? Is this guy
1:25:34like can he take no for an answer? He
1:25:36seems to not be taking no for an answer.
1:25:38Or maybe she's into it and she says yes.
1:25:41And like I you know I've seen other
1:25:44cases of of you know like men who are
1:25:47insecure who will use money to try to
1:25:50get with women and then that also
1:25:52doesn't solve the problem because you're
1:25:55using your money to get the woman and
1:25:56it's not clear whether she likes you for
1:25:58any other reason than that and things
1:26:00like that. So I I I don't I don't think
1:26:02that the statement is true.
1:26:05I think that if you look at, you know,
1:26:08data on it, having more money is more
1:26:12likely to
1:26:15you're more likely to be positively
1:26:17disposed towards someone if they're
1:26:19financially secure or rich. Like that's
1:26:21absolutely the case.
1:26:23>> There's a concept of hypergami.
1:26:25>> Then there's a concept of a lot of match
1:26:28making agencies I speak to,
1:26:31>> okay? and they run like this arranged
1:26:34marriage institute sort of the number
1:26:37one demand for a women is I want
1:26:38somebody who's xyz income. Okay. So
1:26:41that's one. Yeah. Then then there's the
1:26:44concept of hypergami. And then there's a
1:26:46lot of social media chatter where
1:26:50it's almost perceived that women only
1:26:53want
1:26:55really really high net worth individual
1:26:57or high status men. Okay. So let me ask
1:26:59you this.
1:27:01What percentage of women end up marrying
1:27:07a non-rich non high status man?
1:27:12>> Most of them.
1:27:13>> Absolutely. So, how do you reconcile
1:27:15those two things? Right. So, there's
1:27:17what women want and what they say they
1:27:20want and then there's what they do.
1:27:23Those are like really separate. So, I
1:27:25think there's some big problems with
1:27:27like the the red pill, manosphere, black
1:27:29pill research stuff. And the biggest
1:27:32problem with all this research is all of
1:27:35the research that it ignores.
1:27:38So, if you look at like what affects who
1:27:40you end up with, there's a good chance
1:27:42that your attachment style affects
1:27:45things way more than your net worth or
1:27:48your status.
1:27:50So, I I I saw this really cool website
1:27:52where someone had collected all of these
1:27:54resources, scientifically reviewed, I
1:27:56mean, peer-reviewed scientific
1:27:58publications on things that support red
1:28:01pill and black pill. And that's great.
1:28:04Like, all that stuff is true, right?
1:28:06Let's say, but the problem is that
1:28:08there's 10,000 or 100,000 papers that
1:28:11are not on there that say something
1:28:14else.
1:28:16So it's fine that people say like oh
1:28:18women want the fine I mean you know I
1:28:21want all kinds of things but that's not
1:28:23the decisions that that I make that's
1:28:24not how my life ends up
1:28:27so and even then like this is where we
1:28:30use want like a monolithic term but like
1:28:33we were I was explaining to you you know
1:28:35want is only one phase of a relationship
1:28:37and there's different kinds of wants.
1:28:39>> Yeah.
1:28:40>> Right. So if if you ask someone, you
1:28:41know, like, you know, men want
1:28:46jobs that make them $20 million a year.
1:28:52That's not fine. Cool. Like, I want a
1:28:55job that makes me $20 million a year,
1:28:57but that's not the job that I have and
1:28:59it's not the job I'm not going to reject
1:29:03jobs that make me less than 20 million.
1:29:05even if I want to 20 and I I'll be
1:29:07perfectly happy with a job that makes me
1:29:11$5 million a year. Right? [laughter]
1:29:14So, so this is why there there's just
1:29:15some weird like cognitive failures with
1:29:19like all of this thinking.
1:29:20>> But aren't you then perpetually sad or
1:29:23like just
1:29:25feeling that you've not gotten what you
1:29:28want
1:29:29>> potentially? If you're someone whose
1:29:32sadness or happiness depends on getting
1:29:34what you want, sure.
1:29:36>> But then you're screwed for all kinds of
1:29:38other reasons. Cuz this is terrible.
1:29:39That's a terrible way to live life. If
1:29:41my happiness, and I know that's the way
1:29:43a lot of people think it needs to be
1:29:44live, but just think about it for a
1:29:45second. If my happiness depends on
1:29:48getting what I want, what determines
1:29:53whether I get what I want? I'm asking
1:29:56you
1:30:01there's so many things which determines
1:30:03whether I get but far and large I would
1:30:06put it efforts and luck
1:30:10what percentage do you think each one is
1:30:14>> a 1% effort 99% luck
1:30:16>> absolutely right so let's say we're
1:30:19talking about happiness in relationships
1:30:21if I'm happy
1:30:24if my happiness requires me to get who I
1:30:27want to date.
1:30:29The biggest influence in that is the
1:30:32person that I want to date. [laughter]
1:30:33>> Yeah.
1:30:34>> The ones. So, what I'm doing is I'm
1:30:35surrendering my happiness to the world
1:30:39around me.
1:30:41>> Like, Raj, you know, I've talked about
1:30:43my wife because I I love her so much,
1:30:44but I have a confession to make. What I
1:30:47really wanted to do was date Cleopatra.
1:30:50That's who I wanted to marry.
1:30:53I'm screwed.
1:30:55Right. So this is where and this is the
1:30:56problem like we we've we've talked about
1:30:58this sort of you know this dopamineergic
1:31:00love. And the other thing is like
1:31:01wanting is not love. Want getting what
1:31:04you want is not happiness or a stable
1:31:07relationship or fulfillment. Wanting is
1:31:09just wanting. It's a desire. It comes
1:31:11from the nucleus. It's driven by
1:31:13dopamine.
1:31:15>> What we want and you kind of said like
1:31:17you you you have basically everything
1:31:19that you want but you're dissatisfied.
1:31:22Right. So satisfaction is a completely
1:31:24different neurotransmitter, completely
1:31:26different parts of the brain. We're
1:31:27talking about things like serotonin.
1:31:29That's where contentment comes from. And
1:31:31serotonin is not about what you're
1:31:33attracted to. So I'll give you a simple
1:31:36example.
1:31:39You know, if I climb to the top of a
1:31:41mountain,
1:31:43that's a lot of effort and it's not even
1:31:45pleasant, but I'm going to feel great at
1:31:47the end of it. Even though I feel
1:31:48terrible, I'm going to feel great.
1:31:50That's serotonin. M.
1:31:52>> So when it comes to healthy
1:31:54relationships, when it comes to being
1:31:56happy in a relationship,
1:31:59the really lucky people learn how to
1:32:02preserve some of that dopamineergic
1:32:04element and and that's why like, you
1:32:06know, we get we we go on vacations and
1:32:08we go out for Valentine's Day and stuff
1:32:10like that because we get overwhelmed by
1:32:12life and we're like changing diapers and
1:32:13stuff. So you need a little bit of time
1:32:15to recreate those circumstances so that
1:32:18the the spark can can catch again,
1:32:21right? People don't realize that like
1:32:23when people say like, you know, it's so
1:32:24sad people say marriages require work,
1:32:27but no one ever tells you what kind of
1:32:29work.
1:32:30Communication is the the the the secret
1:32:33to a successful marriage. But what do
1:32:35you say? When do you say it? No one ever
1:32:37tells you [laughter] that stuff, right?
1:32:39So, I'll give you like just a simple
1:32:41example of that and I'll we'll kind of
1:32:42get back to what you were saying. My
1:32:43wife and I stumbled on something that's
1:32:45really great.
1:32:46>> When we don't want the same or when we
1:32:48we're trying to figure out like what
1:32:50we're going to do like say what are we
1:32:51going to eat tonight? We rank things
1:32:53from 1 to 10.
1:32:55>> You want Thai food? What is it on a
1:32:57scale of 1 to 10? It's a seven. I'm at
1:32:59like an 8.5 for pizza.
1:33:01>> It's such a simple communication thing
1:33:03and it's helped our marriage so much
1:33:04because without that it's like I want
1:33:06Tai. Well, I want pizza. And then you
1:33:08just Well, how much do you want it?
1:33:10Okay. Oh, so you really want it? I
1:33:12didn't realize that.
1:33:13>> This is like a nine out of 10.
1:33:17>> It's so easy, but it like has helped our
1:33:20marriage so much. We've also separated
1:33:22out we like this is a want versus this
1:33:24is like a should.
1:33:26>> Like I really want to go out with these
1:33:28people. We we really should go out with
1:33:30these people. Okay, this is not
1:33:32something. So we we call it a want token
1:33:34or a want card. She's like, I'm playing
1:33:36a want card. This is something that I
1:33:37want. This is not a want. I'm not
1:33:39spending a want card with this. This is
1:33:41like these people took care of your kids
1:33:44when they were sick, so we should go out
1:33:45to dinner with them. I'm not This is not
1:33:47like my friends cuz I'm like, "Oh, I'm
1:33:49doing it for you. I'm not doing it for
1:33:50you. You're doing it for your kid." So,
1:33:52being able to like tease these things
1:33:53apart helps a lot.
1:33:54>> You mentioned red pill and black pill.
1:33:57>> Yeah.
1:33:57>> Explain that for my Indian audience.
1:33:59>> Okay. [laughter]
1:34:01>> Red pill, black pill, and then there's
1:34:02red pill 2.0.
1:34:04>> Uh, sure. And then then there's our
1:34:07community which is pink uh green pill.
1:34:09>> Okay.
1:34:10>> But okay, so a couple years ago there's
1:34:13this movie called The Matrix.
1:34:15And there's a scene in the Matrix where
1:34:17I I forget the guy. He's got he holds
1:34:20out his hands and he's got a a blue pill
1:34:22and a red pill. And Neo, who's the the
1:34:25the hero of the movie, he tells him,
1:34:28"Okay, you've got two choices. You can
1:34:30take the blue pill and you can continue
1:34:31to live in your elucory word world or
1:34:34you can take the red pill and you can
1:34:36understand the true nature of things. So
1:34:39it was a group of people I think this
1:34:40started with sort of the pickup artists
1:34:42and then this evolved into something
1:34:44called red pill where people sort of
1:34:47thought that okay relationships are like
1:34:49we have all these rules for
1:34:51relationships but that's not real.
1:34:52That's like the fake that's like you
1:34:54know this this pretend world or it's a
1:34:57scam. It's a conspiracy. They're not
1:34:59giving you the real information. If you
1:35:00want to be successful, you need to take
1:35:02the red pill and you need to wake up
1:35:05>> from this dream of what relationships
1:35:07this this Cinderella story of you meet
1:35:09and you fall in love and then you make
1:35:11the sacrifice and she stays with you
1:35:12forever. That's all a lie.
1:35:15>> The truth of the matter, you have to
1:35:16wake up to the harsh reality of the
1:35:18world. So that philosophy is kind of red
1:35:22pill, which is this idea that a lot of
1:35:24our ideas around relationships are not
1:35:26how they work. And a lot of it is men
1:35:29helping men navigate relationships.
1:35:33Then there was an evolution called
1:35:34>> what's the fundamental uh principle what
1:35:37what men help other men help with.
1:35:39What's the fundamental truth here?
1:35:41>> Um so I think there are a couple
1:35:42features of it. One is that there's a
1:35:46very in my opinion and I think most
1:35:50people who are knowledgeable would agree
1:35:53very poor understanding of biology that
1:35:56is applied to dating.
1:35:58>> So a great example of this is like
1:36:00there's this concept of an alpha male
1:36:02and then the alpha gets the women
1:36:06>> and then the beta males don't get the
1:36:08women.
1:36:09And the funny thing is the person who
1:36:12even coined the term alpha wolf and
1:36:15alpha male spent the rest of his career
1:36:17trying to explain to people that you
1:36:19guys are like misunderstanding. This is
1:36:20not how this works. So even the concept
1:36:23is like fundamentally flawed. That's not
1:36:25how people work. I think the biggest
1:36:27mistake which I feel like 99% confident
1:36:31is like a huge scientific error is they
1:36:35they make assumption. They talk about
1:36:36men and women, but the truth of the
1:36:39matter is you can't generalize men and
1:36:42women. There there are so many
1:36:44individual genetic, personality,
1:36:47upbringing, social conditioning aspects
1:36:50that you can't say women behave this way
1:36:52and men behave this way. But they they
1:36:54use some research and they extrapolate
1:36:56they don't understand anything about the
1:36:58methodology of studies. So like you
1:37:01they'll they'll cite these things like
1:37:03women are responsible for 70% of
1:37:05divorce.
1:37:06Um but they don't know what the
1:37:08difference between like a actually
1:37:10here's a good example. They they cite a
1:37:12lot of studies on surveys.
1:37:14>> So they'll ask people what do women
1:37:16want, right? So women want rich men.
1:37:20Fine. That's different from what do
1:37:23women choose?
1:37:26that like those are different things and
1:37:27and they they muddle together all of
1:37:29these concepts. So, I think that there's
1:37:31a lot of scientific um illiteracy
1:37:35actually. And I know I'm not trying to
1:37:36piss red people off, but it's like
1:37:38that's really what it is. So, I I have
1:37:41this, you know, sometimes when I talk
1:37:42about red pill stuff, you guys can maybe
1:37:45cut to this, but there's I have a a
1:37:47textbook on my shelf called the
1:37:49Cambridge Handbook of Personal
1:37:51Relationships,
1:37:52>> and it's like a thick text,
1:37:54>> okay? and it's like full of scientific
1:37:56studies about how relationships actually
1:37:58work. They don't know any of that stuff.
1:37:59They never talk about any of this stuff.
1:38:01They never even address it. So, they
1:38:04tend to generalize way too much. Um I
1:38:08think they also have some of these ideas
1:38:09that like like the weirdest thing about
1:38:11it is the worst uh perpetrators
1:38:15don't give women like agency. Like they
1:38:18don't understand that women make choices
1:38:19and they're like conscious human beings
1:38:22who decide things. They're like, "Okay,
1:38:24here's what the biology of women is."
1:38:26>> Yeah.
1:38:26>> And and the the statements that they
1:38:28make in isolation are correct. I think
1:38:30the extrapolations they make, the
1:38:32interpretation of the data is where they
1:38:33go way off. So they'll say things like,
1:38:36you know, a a woman has a greater
1:38:38investment because if she has sex, then
1:38:41she becomes pregnant and that like
1:38:43that's a more a greater biological
1:38:44investment than a man because a man can
1:38:46disappear and he's not doesn't have to
1:38:48deal with the consequences. And that
1:38:50kind of stuff is true. So sometimes you
1:38:52know the good people I think understand
1:38:54some science but fundamentally they
1:38:55don't understand science.
1:38:57>> Um
1:38:59and then they have other kind of ideas
1:39:00like women pick men who are tall, pick
1:39:03men who are this they basically treat
1:39:06women like they're bots that have been
1:39:09programmed to select for certain things
1:39:11and there's really [clears throat] no
1:39:12room for individuality.
1:39:14>> They have other kinds of like
1:39:15philosophies. I think uh I've worked
1:39:18with a lot of men who are red pillars
1:39:19and things like that. I I think the
1:39:21common thing that I see is that there's
1:39:23usually a traumatic experience with a
1:39:25woman early on and then they the way
1:39:28that they respond to that trauma. Um and
1:39:32and and traumatic experience with a
1:39:33woman can sometimes be because the woman
1:39:35was mean to them and did cheat on them
1:39:37or whatever, took advantage of them.
1:39:39>> Um sometimes it's like a little bit more
1:39:41in their head where like a woman
1:39:43>> the real trauma is that this woman that
1:39:45I fell in love with didn't notice me
1:39:48>> and that's sometimes enough.
1:39:50So once I have a traumatic experience
1:39:52with a woman, I join a red pill
1:39:54community where other people are sharing
1:39:55their traumatic experiences with women.
1:39:57And now every story I read about women
1:40:00is talking about how women are
1:40:02untrustworthy.
1:40:03So now like 100% now I start to believe
1:40:06and I don't blame red pill people for
1:40:08this, right? Cuz now oh my god, I
1:40:10thought it was just me, but it turns out
1:40:12it's everyone. It's not everyone. All
1:40:14the people who are successfully in red
1:40:17pill for uh successfully in
1:40:20relationships are not in red pill spaces
1:40:22for the most part. Okay. Um and then
1:40:26there are other things like if you look
1:40:27at places like Reddit and you post
1:40:30something that goes against the
1:40:32narrative of the red pill, you'll get
1:40:34downvoted,
1:40:35>> right? [laughter]
1:40:36>> So, so there's like a selection where
1:40:38they're they're literally removing
1:40:40contrary information.
1:40:43>> Then there's black pillars and black
1:40:45pillars believe that it's hopeless.
1:40:47>> [laughter]
1:40:48>> So they're they're maybe nihilistic. I I
1:40:50don't really know. But they just
1:40:51basically believe they've like given up
1:40:53and they don't believe that relationship
1:40:55success is ever possible. Um and then on
1:40:58our in our community someone
1:41:00>> why do they believe so?
1:41:02>> Uh very similar things. So maybe some
1:41:04traumatic experience and then they look
1:41:06at some of this research and they say
1:41:08okay like women want men who make this
1:41:10much money who are who are this tall.
1:41:12I'm a 5 foot2 manllet who's unemployed
1:41:16and and their psychology I think is a
1:41:18little bit different. I mean I'm
1:41:19generalizing now too but they tend to
1:41:22have you know a lot of like depressive
1:41:24characteristics just have a lot of
1:41:25hopelessness very poor self-image. So
1:41:28there's almost like a fork in the road
1:41:32>> where if you have a traumatic
1:41:33experience, which can even be just like
1:41:36crippling isolation and loneliness,
1:41:38which I don't blame people for.
1:41:40>> If you're like if you get pissed and
1:41:42resentful and you start to cultivate
1:41:45anger, this is something people don't
1:41:47realize. The antidote to depression is
1:41:50anger. So depression will keep me still.
1:41:53Anger will get me moving. So Freud
1:41:56noticed this and he said that depression
1:41:58is anger turned against the self. So
1:42:00when I'm depressed, I have a lot of
1:42:01self-hatred, self-loathing. I'm
1:42:03pathetic. I'm a loser. I should kill
1:42:04myself. I don't belong on this planet.
1:42:07Right? So there's a there's a very big
1:42:08relationship between anger and depressed
1:42:12or or anger and sadness. So if I respond
1:42:15to that depression with anger, that
1:42:17motivates me to change my life. M
1:42:20>> or I let that depression turn into
1:42:23self-loathing and then I kind of go down
1:42:25the road of of black pill. So that can
1:42:27happen a lot. So they have very poor
1:42:29confidence. So I I I think that there's
1:42:31a lot here that
1:42:34you know I think the other real
1:42:35challenge here is that if we look at how
1:42:37to rehabilitate people, you can't
1:42:40ostracize them. So when you like kick
1:42:42someone out,
1:42:44they're not going to get better.
1:42:46So what tends to happen is a lot of this
1:42:48language gets punished. And I'm not
1:42:50saying that that's right or wrong. I'm
1:42:52just saying that the psychological
1:42:54effect of kicking someone out of society
1:42:57where they
1:42:58>> you ostracize them, you send them off to
1:43:00an island where you send all of the
1:43:02other people who hate women. Like what
1:43:03do you think is going to happen?
1:43:05>> So what we see in our community, which
1:43:07was scary for a little while, is like
1:43:10>> a clash between incelss and women. and
1:43:13they both come to our community for like
1:43:15to learn about themselves. And then it's
1:43:18really touching. I I remember a post
1:43:19that was awesome because like a woman
1:43:21was like, "I'm a conventionally
1:43:23attractive woman. I'm like a 10 out of
1:43:2510. I can get laid whenever I want to
1:43:27and I'm like I feel so lonel so lonely.
1:43:30I'm like I feel crippling loneliness. I
1:43:33can have sex, but people use me for my
1:43:35body." Like they don't see a person,
1:43:38they see an object. And then they
1:43:40started describing their feelings. And
1:43:42then incelss were like, "This is insane.
1:43:44This is how I feel." And then it was
1:43:46like I'd never imagined a place where a
1:43:49supermodel and an incel would connect on
1:43:52an empathic level. But I I think there's
1:43:55like isolation and loneliness is
1:43:56something that kind of we can all feel,
1:43:58but they absolutely do get radicalized,
1:44:00which I think was your your question.
1:44:02Yeah.
1:44:02>> And then there's the third community,
1:44:04which is the green pill, you would
1:44:05think.
1:44:06>> Yeah. And I think that's just like this
1:44:07kind of stuff, right? So understanding
1:44:09that hey you can work on yourself and
1:44:11that's another thing that people will
1:44:13say a lot like you should work on
1:44:14yourself. The question is how?
1:44:15>> Yeah.
1:44:16>> So I think the biggest mistake people
1:44:17make there is people say okay you should
1:44:18work on yourself and people will say
1:44:20okay that means I need to go to go to
1:44:21the gym get a job. Working on yourself
1:44:25is depends on you is highly
1:44:27individualized. So you know it's not
1:44:30something that is generic. Like going to
1:44:32the gym is a great part of it but you
1:44:34should really ask yourself like what are
1:44:35my problems right? What do I struggle
1:44:37with? where is my lack of confidence
1:44:38coming from? And and so the what we try
1:44:41to espouse is like first of all there's
1:44:44science to be understood. Secondly, like
1:44:46you should understand your own mind. You
1:44:48should understand what drives you, where
1:44:50desire comes from. Um and and often
1:44:53times what's scary, right, is that even
1:44:54when people do it right, they don't end
1:44:57up happy. M and so one of the things
1:44:59that I'll see with red pillars is like
1:45:02they're they're able to get laid but
1:45:03then they're they're not able to form
1:45:06what they really crave. So there's a
1:45:08couple of dynamics here.
1:45:11One is that when you [clears throat]
1:45:13select when you believe women are
1:45:14transactional and all they want is your
1:45:17money and this is a trade of like money
1:45:19for sex or whatever. The women who are
1:45:22looking for a genuine relationship won't
1:45:24date you. So then all of your experience
1:45:28is with women who are also transactional
1:45:31which will then make reinforce your
1:45:33belief that women are just looking for
1:45:35money because all the ones who are
1:45:36looking for something else aren't going
1:45:38to date you.
1:45:39>> Right? So there's little things like
1:45:41this with their selection biases that
1:45:43they don't really think about. Um and
1:45:45then the really scary thing is that
1:45:47often times they'll get laid but then
1:45:48like then they they they're kind of
1:45:50trapped because what they really want is
1:45:52emotional connection. They want someone
1:45:53who will be with them forever,
1:45:57not just for money. But now they've
1:45:59created a situation where they're afraid
1:46:02of being rejected. They're afraid of
1:46:04being vulnerable. They're afraid of
1:46:05being taken advantage of. And what
1:46:08they're really what's really hard for
1:46:09them is taking a risk.
1:46:11>> Yeah.
1:46:12>> Cuz what's really scary is that like a
1:46:15committed romantic relationship is like
1:46:17a huge risk. And you don't know how this
1:46:19person is going to respond.
1:46:20>> Yeah. And I think the real reason we're
1:46:22not seeing relationships is because
1:46:24people don't know how to stomach risk
1:46:25anymore.
1:46:27Everyone wants guarantees. We want chat
1:46:30GPT to tell us how to do this. We want
1:46:33to be sure. We want to know, right? We
1:46:35want to like, think about this. And you
1:46:36know who's responsible for this is
1:46:37Amazon. Amazon did something really
1:46:40great and really terrifying,
1:46:41>> right?
1:46:42>> They gave us reviews.
1:46:45See, I remember when I was growing up, I
1:46:48would go to the store
1:46:51and I would see video games and I didn't
1:46:54know if the game was good or bad. I got
1:46:56this game that was a Silver Surfer. It
1:46:58was a terrible game and I I bought it
1:47:00and I didn't know what it was. And now
1:47:02we have Amazon that tells us ahead of
1:47:04time whether we're going to like it or
1:47:07not. There's no risk to buying anything
1:47:09anymore, right? Which on the one hand is
1:47:11great. So we're starting to mitigate
1:47:14risk, mitigate risk, mitigate risk. We
1:47:15can't tolerate risk anymore.
1:47:17>> Like how can men go talk to women and
1:47:19then even though there are women?
1:47:21>> Okay. So let me ask you Raj,
1:47:25>> what's wrong when nothing seems to work?
1:47:29Right. So for for one person I have a
1:47:32problem. I do something. Problem solved.
1:47:35>> Another person
1:47:37>> I try this.
1:47:40Even though the solution should work, it
1:47:41doesn't. I try this. The solution should
1:47:43work. It doesn't. Try this. Solution
1:47:46should work. It doesn't. What's the
1:47:47problem?
1:47:48>> Nothing.
1:47:49>> What do you mean nothing's the problem?
1:47:50Well, clearly something's the problem,
1:47:51right?
1:47:53>> But they can try another way. Like I
1:47:55mean,
1:47:55>> so you've tried three things.
1:47:56>> Yeah. But it's still not working.
1:47:58>> It's still not working.
1:47:58>> So they are the problem.
1:48:00>> Yes.
1:48:02So here's the first thing.
1:48:06See, when I ask for a solution,
1:48:09what people give me is something that
1:48:11exists outside of this.
1:48:13>> They say, "Go do this. Go do this. Go do
1:48:16this. Go do this." What's the common
1:48:18element? It's you. Now, the problem is
1:48:21that when you say that, people think,
1:48:22"Oh my god, I'm screwed. I'm the
1:48:25problem." As if that's not fixable.
1:48:28Like, hold on a second.
1:48:31Which problem do you have the most
1:48:34control over? It's actually this one.
1:48:39I can't control you at all.
1:48:41>> Yeah.
1:48:41>> I mean, this causes people so much
1:48:45suffering.
1:48:48Trying to get my narcissistic parent to
1:48:50understand me. Not going to happen.
1:48:54Trying to get my boss to give me credit
1:48:56and stop taking my credit.
1:48:59Maybe there's some stuff you can do, but
1:49:01this is where like it's so interesting
1:49:02because when you say like if you're the
1:49:04problem, we make it sound like that's
1:49:05the end. No, that's not the end. That's
1:49:06actually the easiest problem to solve.
1:49:08We just don't know how to solve it.
1:49:10So, I see this a lot where people look
1:49:13at solutions as actions
1:49:16>> outside of them. But the whole reason,
1:49:18you know, it's interesting. I was I was
1:49:20looking at uh our content director sent
1:49:22me some interesting tweets where someone
1:49:25was like, "It's so hard to meet people."
1:49:27And then someone else is like, "It's
1:49:28really easy. I just went out there and I
1:49:29met people and I did it." And then there
1:49:31was a huge Twitter war of some people
1:49:33being like, some women, women and men
1:49:34being like, "Yeah, you should just put
1:49:36yourself out there. It'll be fine."
1:49:37Other people being like, "I put myself
1:49:39out there. That doesn't work."
1:49:42And so if the action is the same,
1:49:47right, but it works for some people and
1:49:49doesn't work for other people, the
1:49:50difference is in the person.
1:49:53So I think this is where like like you
1:49:56know the solution is not just go to
1:49:59sport and I've seen that plenty of times
1:50:00too where people are like I tried
1:50:02following all the advice none of it
1:50:03works you need to do an internal action
1:50:06right what about sport works for some
1:50:09people and doesn't work for you why
1:50:11isn't this working for you what is your
1:50:12internal feeling when you start playing
1:50:14sports like how do you feel
1:50:17>> right for some people it is a
1:50:19circumstantial problem but their
1:50:20personality is already the right Okay.
1:50:22And other people like you have to fix
1:50:24the personality which also can be done
1:50:27like literally we have you know
1:50:28treatments for narcissistic personality
1:50:30disorder. So we can modify personality.
1:50:35Second thing is you know I think
1:50:37friend-zone is like a really really
1:50:40great
1:50:42staging ground for success. So everyone
1:50:45gets frustrated by friend-zone but
1:50:46they're not looking at it the the right
1:50:48way. There's a different way to look at
1:50:50it. One of the safest signals for
1:50:53another woman is to have female friends.
1:50:56>> One of the best ways to meet women is to
1:50:59have female friends. Hey, is there
1:51:02anyone you can set me up with?
1:51:04[laughter]
1:51:06Right? And if you've got 10 female
1:51:07friends, you be like, "Hey, it's time to
1:51:10do project alloc. Project alloc me a
1:51:14girlfriend by the end of 2026. You guys
1:51:16tell me what to do. Like, let's do it.
1:51:18Please, can I have your help?
1:51:21And this is where we get to another part
1:51:23of the fix. This is
1:51:24>> a lot of people think that saying this
1:51:27is low value and they'll be looked down
1:51:29upon
1:51:30>> by who?
1:51:32>> By the female friends, by the people. A
1:51:34lot of people don't reach out. I've seen
1:51:36this.
1:51:36>> Yeah. I mean, so so
1:51:39let's understand
1:51:40>> some sort of shame if they say this
1:51:42because they then they look like losers.
1:51:43>> Okay. If someone's afraid that I'm going
1:51:47to be looked down upon,
1:51:49first thing you have to understand is
1:51:52that
1:51:54the person you're going to be looked
1:51:56down upon
1:51:57by is you.
1:52:01You look down upon. I don't want to be
1:52:04the loser who has to get my
1:52:08friends to find me a girlfriend. I want
1:52:10to be a man who walks into a room and
1:52:14girlfriends find me.
1:52:17Other people can. I mean, Raj, do people
1:52:19look down on you?
1:52:22>> Sure they do.
1:52:23>> I don't think so. [laughter]
1:52:24>> I They must. Maybe you're really
1:52:27special. I don't know.
1:52:28>> Of course they do. Yeah. I'm just saying
1:52:30I don't let that get to my head.
1:52:32>> Exactly. So So there's a difference. So
1:52:34people say the problem isn't that people
1:52:36will look down on you. First of all, the
1:52:37most important person is yourself. And
1:52:40if you look down on it, that's what you
1:52:41need to fix. Why are you trying to go
1:52:43and control the opinions of others? Oh
1:52:45my god, that's a terrible idea. Why
1:52:47don't you change your own self opinion?
1:52:49And then something cool will happen. All
1:52:51kinds of people will, I'm sure, look
1:52:53down on me and I'm sure look down on
1:52:54you. This, okay, people will will look
1:52:57down on me. The way to solve that isn't
1:53:00to change so that people stop look
1:53:02looking down on you. It is to change so
1:53:04that you don't care if some people look
1:53:06down on you. Let them.
1:53:10Why are you going to let it ruin your
1:53:12life?
1:53:12>> Yeah.
1:53:13>> If someone wants to think less of you,
1:53:15like does this water taste any
1:53:18different? No.
1:53:20Do I go to sleep any different? Like not
1:53:22really, unless I torture myself around
1:53:24it. When I eat a piece of cake, does it
1:53:27taste different? No. The majority of my
1:53:29life is exactly the same. The only thing
1:53:30that changes is my thoughts. And there
1:53:32may be a certain practical thing like if
1:53:34I want that person to date me, then
1:53:36arguably that's important.
1:53:38>> Yeah.
1:53:38>> But that too doesn't work because if I
1:53:40want this person to date me and I don't
1:53:41want them to look down on me, you can go
1:53:43chasing that for they've tried, right?
1:53:46And it doesn't work.
1:53:47>> So it's it's time to change your
1:53:49thinking and realize that if you're
1:53:50afraid that other people are looking
1:53:52down on you, that only happens if you
1:53:54have a lack of selfworth.
1:53:55>> True.
1:53:56The way the value that you place in
1:53:59other people's opinions
1:54:01is inversely correlated with your own
1:54:03self-worth, which means the lower your
1:54:05self-worth, the more important the
1:54:07opinions of others. The higher your
1:54:08self-worth, right? Worth comes from
1:54:11yourself or other people. One of the
1:54:13two. That's not really true, but anyway,
1:54:15for this purpose, it's fine.
1:54:18So, I think that's why so I think
1:54:20there's a there's a there's an issue
1:54:21within that person that needs to be
1:54:23resolved. And the reason I come to that
1:54:26answer is because those are the people
1:54:27that I work with, right? Because the
1:54:28people who can start sport and then do
1:54:30fine, they don't come to me. It's all
1:54:32the people who the solutions don't work
1:54:34for that we have to work with.
1:54:35>> Yeah.
1:54:36>> And I really think this friend-zone
1:54:37thing is like if you've got if you get
1:54:38friend-zoned like work with those
1:54:40people, but that feels shaming.
1:54:43>> Yeah.
1:54:43>> Right. That's not I want to be an alpha.
1:54:46And it's like then you got to really ask
1:54:47yourself what's more important. Do you
1:54:49want to be an alpha or do you want to
1:54:50have a healthy and successful
1:54:53relationship?
1:54:56True. That's a good way to put up. You
1:55:00You were sharing ingredients of falling
1:55:03in love, right? You said
1:55:05>> unplanned meetup conversations, shared
1:55:08emotion, dopamine, and then shared
1:55:11emotion. And then there was
1:55:13>> common cause is another one. So like
1:55:16when you guys have a shared goal that
1:55:17you work towards like that can that's
1:55:19not the same as shared emotions but
1:55:21those tend to be the the most important
1:55:23factors. Those are like the chemical
1:55:25recipe for love.
1:55:27>> Do you think you can plan this and plant
1:55:30this in order to make someone fall in
1:55:32love with you
1:55:35like let's say you're going out on a
1:55:36date
1:55:37>> probably. So like let's say you're going
1:55:39out on a date and you plan it in a way
1:55:41that you will elevate some sort of
1:55:45emotion because you'll only go to dates
1:55:47which are which will cause a certain
1:55:48level of emotional roller coaster.
1:55:51>> I think so. And then you'll be this
1:55:53inconsistent.
1:55:54>> I I think so. I think so. So
1:55:59I know this sounds kind of like scary to
1:56:02say like cuz people are like oh my god
1:56:04like this guy's asking can you make
1:56:05people fall in love with you? That's
1:56:06what you're asking, right? And this is
1:56:08where like I think if we're being
1:56:09honest, Yes. And I know that sounds
1:56:11insane, but I want you to think about
1:56:13this for a second. There's some people
1:56:15that are very good at it.
1:56:17>> Yeah.
1:56:17>> You know, there's some people that like
1:56:20some people, a lot of people fall in
1:56:22love with
1:56:24like you know these people that they're
1:56:26like tornadoes.
1:56:28>> Like they enter your life and you're
1:56:29like, "Oh my god."
1:56:30>> Yeah.
1:56:31>> And then they leave your life and you're
1:56:32like, "Oh no." And then they enter
1:56:33someone else's life. They just leave a
1:56:35trail of destruction behind them. I know
1:56:38these people, right? [laughter]
1:56:40We all know these people. And and this
1:56:42the really interesting thing is is um
1:56:44there's even some diagnosis that explain
1:56:47this stuff. So there's a diagnosis
1:56:48called borderline personality disorder.
1:56:51>> And the thing one of the diagnostic
1:56:53features of borderline personality
1:56:54disorder is a history of intense and
1:56:58unstable relationships. These people
1:57:01fall really hard in love. other people
1:57:03fall really hard in love with them and
1:57:05then it falls apart and then it happens
1:57:07again and it falls apart and then this
1:57:09this person and that person so you know
1:57:11they really struggle and there's a lot
1:57:13that we can go into there but um so yeah
1:57:16I mean I I I think and I think that
1:57:18other people also get better at dating
1:57:20right so as you improve in these skills
1:57:25the likelihood that you succeed in a
1:57:27relationship
1:57:29that has genuine love actually
1:57:31increases. I think this is a skill. So
1:57:33is is scary and like oh my god, can you
1:57:35trick someone? I I think that yeah, I
1:57:37think you can get better. I don't know
1:57:38if you can like trick someone or force
1:57:40someone to fall in love with you, but I
1:57:41I literally like my day job is like
1:57:44okay, let's work on these factors
1:57:47and work on authenticity.
1:57:49Um there's also like you know scientific
1:57:53analysis of charisma. So like there's
1:57:56there's scientific analysis of ick.
1:57:58>> Like what is the ick? How do we break
1:58:00that apart? Um there's scientific
1:58:02analysis of charisma, there's scientific
1:58:03analysis of falling in love.
1:58:06And so like like recently what we've
1:58:09decided to do is is uh Kuthie was
1:58:11telling me like hey you got to put this
1:58:13all together. [laughter]
1:58:15What is the scientific way of charisma?
1:58:17>> Um so it's a couple of different things.
1:58:19So first is there's one large
1:58:22non-scientific element and then there's
1:58:24a lot of scientific elements. But even
1:58:25you here's what I mean. First thing
1:58:29about charisma is that all kinds of
1:58:31different disciplines study charisma.
1:58:35If you look at academic publications on
1:58:37charisma, the second highest volume of
1:58:41publications is actually uh publications
1:58:44on religion. So the study of religion,
1:58:47the study of charisma looks at things
1:58:49like Jesus Christ or Buddha or Jon of
1:58:53Arc or like
1:58:56um you know there were uh who's um
1:59:01I'm blanking on their name jet lag is
1:59:03kicking in but there was uh Orabind
1:59:06though so right so he's like a spiritual
1:59:08master who's also like a freedom fighter
1:59:10>> so like you can look at these
1:59:13so something about Chris there's
1:59:14something special with religion and
1:59:15charisma, but we're going to set that to
1:59:17aside because most scientists will
1:59:19acknowledge this, but we don't know how
1:59:20to study that or it's hard to study. So,
1:59:22then there's the that the non weird
1:59:25spiritual stuff, but that doesn't mean
1:59:27that the spiritual stuff is false. It
1:59:29just means that it's harder to
1:59:30understand. It involves like Shaki and
1:59:32this other weird stuff. Okay,
1:59:35>> the non-spiritual stuff first is having
1:59:38a vision. So, what people are attracted
1:59:40to is having a vision. So this is where
1:59:42like you know a lot of people think okay
1:59:43I need a certain amount of money or I
1:59:45need to be tall. That's not really what
1:59:47you need. If you think about what the
1:59:50reason I think my wife one of the
1:59:51reasons she stayed with me cuz I was
1:59:53just like broke for 3 years and post
1:59:54college and didn't have a job and
1:59:56whatever is because like she could tell
1:59:57that I I had like I was going somewhere.
2:00:00I was I was having trouble but I'd done
2:00:02this like yoga sadhana and was going to
2:00:04be a monk and then like I like she could
2:00:06tell I was going somewhere.
2:00:08>> So having a vision for your life. So, it
2:00:10doesn't mean that you have to be
2:00:11successful. It just means you have to
2:00:12know where you're going instead of just
2:00:14screwing around. And knowing where
2:00:16you're going can also be like a, "Hey,
2:00:18I'm working on it and here are the ways
2:00:20that I'm working on it."
2:00:23So, I'll give you just a quick kind of
2:00:25tangent. So, you know, one of the
2:00:26problems I see a lot in relationships is
2:00:28people will say like, "I need time,
2:00:30right? I'm not ready yet.
2:00:33>> I'm not ready to get married. I'm not
2:00:34ready. I'm not ready."
2:00:36>> Which is fine.
2:00:37>> Yeah. And people like, "Oh, should I
2:00:38break up with this person or not? Dr. K,
2:00:40what should I do?" It's like, you don't
2:00:42need to break up. I I don't think that's
2:00:43the wrong question. What you should
2:00:45figure out is what is the process of
2:00:46getting ready, not when are you going to
2:00:48get ready, what are your steps to get
2:00:50ready, what is what are you doing to get
2:00:53ready?
2:00:55And often times people are not willing
2:00:58to answer that or figure that out,
2:00:59right? So, it's like it's fine that
2:01:00you're not ready. Totally fine. We
2:01:02should be patient, but what's your plan
2:01:04to get to ready? Like, what are you
2:01:06going to investigate? what are you going
2:01:07to research? What are you going to do?
2:01:10So in that way like vision doesn't h
2:01:11have you have to don't have to sort out
2:01:13your life but you can say like hey this
2:01:14is what I'm interested in this is what
2:01:16I'm working on here's what I'm excited
2:01:18about right it doesn't have to be fixed
2:01:20it just needs to be a clear idea of
2:01:22where you even want to go which can be
2:01:24done through internal work so vision is
2:01:26a huge part of it
2:01:28second part is the ability to articulate
2:01:32[clears throat]
2:01:32>> so you have to be good at talking
2:01:34because that's how people
2:01:37that's how they understand your vision
2:01:38and if you just look at the research on
2:01:40it. Like it's hard to be charismatic if
2:01:42you're not clear spoken.
2:01:45>> Yeah.
2:01:46>> Um another ability another important uh
2:01:49uh aspect of charisma is the ability to
2:01:51handle adversity. So who is a leader? A
2:01:55leader is who you turn to in times of
2:01:57crisis.
2:01:57>> Yeah.
2:01:58>> So that can be broken down into all
2:02:00kinds of fascinating things like um even
2:02:02things like emotional regulation, EQ,
2:02:05how do you handle problems? I I love uh
2:02:08so what I really love about Mandarin and
2:02:10and Japanese kanji is there the word for
2:02:14crisis is danger plus opportunity.
2:02:19>> So it's not a
2:02:20>> so it's bad and it's good.
2:02:22>> Yeah,
2:02:22>> right.
2:02:24>> Um so I I think those are three of the
2:02:26really big elements. There are other
2:02:27things. The really interesting thing I I
2:02:29have a video about it, but what's really
2:02:31interesting is that physical attraction
2:02:33is on there, but it's pretty low on the
2:02:34list. It's outweighed by all of these
2:02:37other things, right? So people I think
2:02:39it's like number six in terms of like
2:02:41the importance of it. So everyone thinks
2:02:42that oh I have to be attractive to be
2:02:44charismatic. Actually you don't. It
2:02:46helps but it's not as important as
2:02:48vision, the ability to handle problems
2:02:50and being clear spoken and being able to
2:02:53articulate. Those are the three biggest
2:02:54things.
2:02:55>> Oh actually and then the fourth biggest
2:02:57thing is like being divine connection to
2:03:01divinity is actually a scientifically.
2:03:03So if you do you know
2:03:07multivariant analysis on charismatic
2:03:09people connection to something spiritual
2:03:12is a part of it.
2:03:15>> True that it makes sense.
2:03:18>> Yeah. One last question. Yeah that's
2:03:23what's one feedback [snorts]
2:03:24for me. How can I do this better?
2:03:32>> [laughter]
2:03:33>> Okay.
2:03:35You can be brutally honest.
2:03:37>> I'm not going to be brutally honest. I'm
2:03:39going to be cruel.
2:03:40>> Okay. Wow. [laughter]
2:03:42I'm scared, bro. You should be.
2:03:46>> You can do this better
2:03:49by
2:03:51doing it exactly the same and not
2:03:53improving. [laughter]
2:03:56>> Don't Don't do it better.
2:03:58Just just do it. Do it exactly the same.
2:04:02[clears throat]
2:04:03>> Why would you say so? You you should be
2:04:05critical about it, right? Like that that
2:04:07there must be the missing element.
2:04:10>> Yeah. I I'm not I don't know if you're I
2:04:12I have a feeling that your audience may
2:04:15understand what I said better than you
2:04:17do. What did you hear me say
2:04:20>> that? Do exactly what you're doing.
2:04:23>> Yes.
2:04:26Is that hard for you?
2:04:28>> Very. [laughter]
2:04:29>> So that will help you do it better.
2:04:33Right. So things that will help you do
2:04:34it better are going to be hard.
2:04:36>> Yeah.
2:04:37>> This is the dimension that you need to
2:04:38grow. [laughter]
2:04:40Like I go up every day and try to be
2:04:42like, "Okay,
2:04:43>> this is what I need to change. This is
2:04:44what I need to do."
2:04:45>> I warned you it was going to be cruel.
2:04:47>> Ah, interesting. Good play. [laughter]
2:04:50Like that.
2:04:52you kind of you're impressed but you're
2:04:54like yeah like [laughter]
2:04:57>> you asked for it man.
2:05:00>> Yeah because that's the staying the same
2:05:03is the hardest thing for me because
2:05:04you're absolutely right.
2:05:06>> Yeah.
2:05:08>> So if you if you really want to grow you
2:05:09need to stop growing. [laughter]
2:05:13>> You know you're like the sixth guest who
2:05:17has given the same feedback.
2:05:19>> Yeah.
2:05:20>> Yeah. And I'm like, and all these six
2:05:23people I like really rank high in my
2:05:26life. Yeah. So, I mean, that's
2:05:27something, right? Cuz I I don't think I
2:05:30don't This is where like once again,
2:05:32I'll say like I like I'm I'm
2:05:34accomplished in certain ways, but I'm
2:05:36not like I mean, I think it's pretty
2:05:39clear if if you understand people. And
2:05:41the other nice thing the the really nice
2:05:43thing Raj is that you come across
2:05:47like there's a lot of like you that like
2:05:50enters the room. So it's it's like
2:05:52you're kind of shouting it from the
2:05:53rooftop. So it's not like some you know
2:05:56secret divination kind of thing. I I I
2:05:58think you know you're you're hungry for
2:05:59this. And I think especially my guess is
2:06:01that most people who said this to you
2:06:04are people who are both accomplished and
2:06:06older.
2:06:07>> Yeah. And and so I think at some point
2:06:09we realize the value of like
2:06:13chasing
2:06:15>> and the shortcomings of chasing
2:06:18>> and that like you can still do great but
2:06:21you don't have to like torture yourself.
2:06:22>> So it was an incredible experience but
2:06:24I'm genuinely very happy that you did
2:06:26it. Thank you so much. Thank you for
2:06:28>> I'm going to see you again. We'll do
2:06:30next episode as well. Maybe when I'm
2:06:32traveling to US or you're here.
2:06:33>> Thank you so much for doing this.
2:06:35>> Thanks Raj.
2:06:35>> Thank you so much. Episode
2:06:40number one.
2:06:49Number two.
2:07:00and number three episode.
2:07:10I'll see you next time. Until then, keep
2:07:12figuring out [music]
2:07:18[music]
2:07:26>> [music]

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