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Prof. Tony Lynch - The Importance of Listening to International Students — Transcript

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0:07uh good afternoon everyone um thank you
0:10all very much for coming a very warm
0:11welcome to everyone this
0:14afternoon oh sorry I knew as soon as we
0:19started I'm sorry there's been a little
0:21bit of confusion about the time of start
0:23as well but um uh I think pretty much
0:26everyone's here now so we we'll get
0:28going um it's a real pleasure to welcome
0:32you all to the inaugural of Professor
0:34Tony Lynch um Tony has an MA in modern
0:38languages from the University of
0:39Cambridge a post-graduate teaching
0:41diploma diploma in teaching English as a
0:44second language from the University of
0:45Leeds and then an MSE and PhD in Applied
0:49Linguistics from here at the University
0:51of Edinburgh and he was appointed to his
0:53personal chair of student learning
0:55English for academic purposes in August
0:582011
1:01Tony's worked at the University in
1:03what's now known as the English language
1:05teaching Center since
1:071980 uh he's been a tutor teaching
1:09fellow a lecturer a senior lecturer and
1:12now a
1:13professor he's now head of the English
1:16for academic purposes section and in
1:19this role is responsible for the
1:20University's ever expanding program of
1:23foundation pression and in session
1:25courses to help International
1:28students
1:30this is an extremely important part of
1:32our work as a university especially as a
1:36a a thoroughly International
1:39University his research has focused on
1:42the communication between native and
1:44non-native speakers of English in
1:46academic settings and he's developed a
1:48good deal of teaching materials based on
1:50the insights he's gained from this
1:54research he's produced three books for
1:56language teachers uh from this research
1:59one called listening one called study
2:01speaking and another study listening and
2:04these have had a real genuine impact on
2:06the teaching of English for academic
2:09purposes and some of his recent papers
2:11have been focusing on International
2:13students informal listening strategies
2:15which I think we'll hear a little bit
2:16about today the linguistic benefits of
2:20recycling classroom communication tasks
2:23and the role of different forms of
2:24feedback in improving students spoken
2:27English all really important topics
2:30for us as as we work to develop students
2:33experience of excellent learning and
2:35teaching Tony's um very kindly agreed to
2:40answer some questions at the end of his
2:41lecture and then we'll all we're all
2:44welcome to a reception that we'll be
2:46holding just outside on the messine
2:48floor so I'm very warm welcome now to
2:51Professor Tony
2:53Lynch to give us his lecture on the
2:55importance of listening to International
2:58students
3:08uh thank you very much um before I begin
3:12my lecture I'd like
3:13to um acknowledge the professional debt
3:16that I owe to two groups of Staff within
3:20the university in particular uh firstly
3:23the teaching staff on the msse in
3:28Applied Linguistics in the old
3:31Department of Applied Linguistics where
3:32I did my msse in
3:351977 uh and secondly to the many
3:39colleagues that many colleagues in The
3:43Institute for Applied language studies
3:45where uh I worked for 30
3:51years so my topic today is listening
3:55comprehension in the University context
3:58and specifically in relation to the
4:01experience of international students who
4:04are
4:05non-native speakers of English and the
4:08title of my
4:09talk can be read in two ways why
4:12listening is important to those
4:15International students and secondly why
4:18I think it's important to listen to what
4:20they have to say about their experience
4:23in
4:25edenburgh now in the lecture I'll be
4:27looking at the processes of listening uh
4:30how we normally resolve listening
4:33comprehension problems why listening
4:36matters for international students how
4:39they perceive the lectures that they
4:41attend in Edinburgh and ways of making
4:44lectures more accessible to
4:50them I'd like to begin with the sources
4:53of information that we use when we're
4:56trying to understand what somebody is
4:59saying to
5:01us so we have three levels of knowledge
5:03at the top we have schematic knowledge
5:06in the middle we have context and at the
5:09bottom we have language so schematic
5:13knowledge is our knowledge of the topic
5:15that's being talked about the content of
5:18what the person is telling us and about
5:20the process of
5:24communication contextual information
5:26involves the situation so who is talking
5:29where and when and the co- text so the
5:33other bits of language that precede and
5:35follow what we are currently listening
5:38to and also the visual information that
5:41we can use in the physical
5:45context and then at the bottom in this
5:48diagram we have language so our
5:49knowledge of vocabulary of grammar and
5:53of
5:56pronunciation now when we're listening
5:58to a foreign language it it's probably
6:00at the bottom level that we are aware of
6:03having
6:04deficiencies so not knowing the words
6:07that a speaker is using clearly strike
6:10us as a problem but it's also true that
6:14the same thing applies to us in our
6:16first language so when when somebody is
6:18using a variety of our own language that
6:21we're less familiar with we can have
6:23difficulty understanding what they said
6:26or
6:28meant
6:30for example about a week into my MSC
6:33course in 1977 I went into the cdale
6:38bank in Patrick Square this is in the
6:41days I think before we had holes in the
6:43wall so I wrote out a check to cash put
6:46it in the trough and the bank teller
6:49said how will I give you the money now I
6:52interpreted this that there was a
6:54problem um there was a screen between us
6:58maybe the trough was blocked
7:00and while I was thinking what to say she
7:03then said do you want it in fives or
7:06tens so I know that this was the first
7:08time that I was aware that some Scottish
7:12speakers of English use will where I
7:14would use
7:16shall in other words to make an offer or
7:20to offer a
7:22choice so that's language in other
7:24contexts it's in other contexts it's
7:27context which plays the main
7:32role um I'm going to show you a question
7:35that I was asked
7:36recently and I'm not going to give you
7:39any context to begin
7:51with so from those four words with the
7:54question mark and the
7:56sir you're probably because this is what
7:58human beings do you're probably trying
8:00to work out a possible context where
8:02that makes
8:03sense I'm now going to tell you a bit
8:05more
8:06about the context it was January and it
8:10was the checkout at sa Center Cameron
8:13toll and it was the assistant who was
8:16checking through my goods who asked the
8:20question what is game
8:22sir now I understood this to mean
8:26something like what's your
8:28game so I thought I had probably done
8:31something wrong but that didn't seem to
8:34fit in with the
8:36sir um so now a bit more
8:39context the assistant was
8:45Indian and I could tell that by the name
8:47on his label and so I said pardon and he
8:53then said the same thing but this time
8:55he added the adjective British what is
8:58British games sir
9:00now at this point I know that schematic
9:03knowledge about British colonial history
9:06kicked in the great game Etc so maybe he
9:10was asking me to comment on the
9:15Raj
9:16so in the way that you do I said I'm
9:19sorry I don't understand and this time
9:23he raised his eyebrows jutted out his
9:26chin towards my shopping and said what
9:29is British game sir and at that point I
9:33remembered that one of the items I had
9:36bought was a casserole mix labeled
9:40British game so I was then able to
9:43answer his question say rabbit pheasant
9:46venis and that sort of thing and he was
9:48very grateful for me informing him what
9:51it was he just put through
9:54the the
9:57checkout now the the whole process I
10:00hope took only about 2 or 3 seconds but
10:03I think it's a very good example of the
10:06roots that we take when we're trying to
10:08make sense of what somebody has told us
10:11so we rarely go directly from our
10:15background knowledge to comprehension we
10:18use the context and language and our
10:20background knowledge we shuttle
10:22backwards and forwards so to speak
10:24between the different sources and we try
10:27to to make sense
10:31we're not normally aware of the routes
10:33we take unless there's some sort of
10:35obstacle such as it being in a foreign
10:37language that makes us conscious of the
10:40decisions that we're
10:43making and to communicate at normal
10:45speed we have to do this in parallel and
10:51quickly now when we're listening to a
10:53foreign language there's a tendency
10:55particularly at the lower levels of
10:58competence in the language to over rely
11:01on language on the bottom
11:04level here's an example
11:07from my learning of Spanish so I was in
11:11Spain in aurus and I was watching a TV
11:14program a news program male newsreader
11:17behind him there was the photograph of a
11:20young
11:22woman
11:24and he announced her as referred to her
11:28as Ladora
11:32deina now my language told me that
11:35lanthar is to throw Adora means someone
11:39who so a thrower kabali is a wild boar
11:43and Ena is a diminutive in fact it's a
11:48female diminutive in the north uh west
11:51of Spain
11:54so what I pictured was this woman um
12:00who was in the habit of hurling around
12:02young female wild boar
12:06piglets this seemed slightly
12:09odd uh and at that point behind the news
12:13reader there appeared a photograph of an
12:16Athletics stadium and it was then that I
12:19twigged that khalina was a javelin not
12:24as I suspected I had I do remember and I
12:27think it was at the time rather than
12:28later
12:29that I did wonder whether this might be
12:31a basque sport because the the Bas the
12:37basks are well known in Spain perhaps
12:39elsewhere by the laughter um for
12:42having games involving Feats of strength
12:45and endurance rather like the Highland
12:47Games but I was able to
12:50um correct myself in time now so far
12:54I've talked about things that happen
12:56inside our heads when we're trying to
12:58understand normally in conversation we
13:02resolve these problems through What's
13:04called the negotiation of meaning or
13:06sometimes referred to as conversational
13:09repair and what you find is that
13:12speakers particularly when they're
13:14speaking to non-native listeners make
13:18three main sorts of
13:21adjustment to input to interaction and
13:25to information and I'm going to say a
13:27little bit about each of those
13:36those so in the case of input speakers
13:40typically adjust the
13:42grammar by making their utterances which
13:45is spoken sentences shorter and less
13:48complex less complex in the grammatical
13:51sense and uh increased use of the
13:54present tense particularly when telling
13:57anecdotes that happen to them
13:59speakers to limited listeners in the
14:02language tend to put everything in the
14:04present tense rather than the past tense
14:06when it comes to vocabulary they tend we
14:09tend to use more common vocabulary to
14:13avoid idioms that we think may not be
14:16obvious to The
14:18Listener we also tend to repeat nouns
14:21rather than to refer to a person as he
14:25or
14:27she and then when it comes to
14:30pronunciation speakers tend to
14:32articulate more CL more clearly and more
14:35slowly to use a greater amount of stress
14:41to stress the really important words
14:44with heavier stress than normal and also
14:46to use a wider range of
14:50pitch and for nonverbal adjustments we
14:54tend to use longer pauses to give the
14:57listener time to process what what
14:59they've just heard we use more gestures
15:02and we increase our use of facial
15:10expressions now at this point I have to
15:12tell you a story the story
15:14concerns a hat seller what you see are
15:18the last two pictures in a six picture
15:24set so it was uh the scene is a tropical
15:27country and
15:29uh an old man who makes sombreros from
15:33uh straw was sitting in the shade of a
15:36tree waiting to sell his hats to passers
15:41by because it was hot he fell
15:44asleep up in the tree were a troop of
15:46monkeys who while he was asleep came
15:48down each took one of his hats went back
15:51up the tree and stuck the hats on their
15:54heads so when he woke up the old man saw
15:57his hats had gone and up in the Tre were
15:59monkeys wearing them he was very angry
16:03so he shook his fist at them and all the
16:06monkeys shook their fist at
16:09him he didn't quite know what to do so
16:12he scratched his head whereupon all the
16:14monkeys scratched their heads at which
16:18point between the two pictures he
16:20realized what he should do that the
16:22monkeys were copying him so he dropped
16:24his hat and the monkeys helpfully all
16:27dropped theirs
16:32now the reason I've told you the story
16:33is because I'm going to focus on uh each
16:36of those pictures in turn for for
16:38different reasons to illustrate the sort
16:40of adjustment that I'm talking
16:50about so in the case of the left hand
16:56picture or rather between the left left
16:59hand picture and the right hand picture
17:01Okay this this data comes from a study I
17:03did in fact it was my PhD study where I
17:06was interested in the ways in which
17:07native speakers of English would or
17:09wouldn't adjust what they said to a
17:12series of individual separate listeners
17:16so what you see here is what one native
17:18speaker said to his or her native
17:21listener so he expressed the realization
17:25as the penny dropped so an idiom
17:29to the advanced
17:31listener this being a non-native speaker
17:34a learner of English he used a different
17:38idiom one that is arguably slightly more
17:42obvious it dawned on him to the
17:45intermediate listener he didn't use the
17:47IDM at all he said he
17:50realized and to the elementary listener
17:53he said and then he thought and he
17:56realized and then a long pause it was
17:59easy so here you have an example of the
18:02ways in which the same native speaker
18:04adapts for different levels of
18:07listener using the same data in each
18:10case The Listener had the same pictures
18:14as the speaker and the listener's task
18:16was to order the pictures they were
18:18jumbled
18:21up so those were adjustments of input
18:25that is adjustments of language the
18:26choice of words
18:29more important according to research is
18:31adjustments of
18:34interaction so the first type of thing
18:36that we do is a confirmation check
18:39that's when the L is listener s is
18:42speaker so when The Listener makes sure
18:44they've understood what the speaker
18:45means so he may say something like so
18:48you mean he lost his money checking that
18:51what I've understood is what the speaker
18:53meant a comprehension check is when the
18:57person who's speaking makes sure that
18:59the listener has understood and we may
19:02make that clear by saying do you follow
19:05do you understand is that clear or it
19:07might just be
19:09okay expecting the other person to
19:11confirm that they have
19:15understood a clarification request is
19:17where the listener asks the speaker to
19:20explain or to rephrase so when you
19:24said obstacles did you mean something
19:27like problems
19:30and repetition either party can repeat
19:34either their own words or the other
19:36person's words in order to check that
19:40what check that both parties are happy
19:43with what's been
19:46understood reformulation the speaker
19:49rephrases the content of what they have
19:52said very often language teachers are
19:55found to do this more than repetition so
19:57non-teachers
19:59talking to non-native listeners tend to
20:02repeat what they said before language
20:04teachers tend to
20:06reformulate completion The Listener
20:09completes the speaker's
20:12utterance intended to be helpful of
20:14course but there are people I'm sure we
20:16know them all who do this to us in our
20:19own language and inevitably are
20:21wrong um I find and then backtracking is
20:25where the speaker has been a problem and
20:28the speaker thinks okay I better go back
20:30to the point where she looked like she
20:32was understanding and we'll try that out
20:35and if that doesn't work we'll go back
20:41further and then there are adjustments
20:44of information choice this is something
20:46that I was particularly interested in um
20:50or became interested in because of the
20:52data that I found in my PhD research so
20:56I found that speakers used more
20:59descriptive
21:00detail more explicit logical links and
21:04also filled in what they assumed were
21:07gaps in the listener's sociocultural
21:15[Music]
21:18knowledge so back to the monkeys but the
21:20right hand picture this
21:24time no sorry the left hand picture this
21:27time the scratching of the head
21:30this is a different native speaker than
21:31the one you saw just
21:34now so to the Native Native listener the
21:38speaker said this is rather puzzling so
21:41he takes off his hat and scratches his
21:46head to the advanced learner he takes
21:49off his hat and scratches his head in
21:53confusion so you could say in confusion
21:55is just about the same as puzzling but
21:58again when it comes to the intermediate
22:00listener well the man doesn't know what
22:02to do he's very puzzled and so he
22:05scratches his head which means I don't
22:08know what to
22:10do implying assuming the listener
22:14doesn't know what head scratching
22:17indicates and again to the
22:19elementary old man's very puzzled and
22:21worried about how to get his hats from
22:24the monkeys and he takes off his hat and
22:26scratches his head as people often do
22:29when they feel
22:33puzzled so speakers also adapt adjust to
22:37their listener by the information they
22:39choose to
22:43highlight so I've talked about three
22:45sorts of
22:47adjustment as if they were separate but
22:49in fact they normally occur in
22:51combination so I'm going to uh by way of
22:54illustration show you a short transcript
22:57of a conversation between three of my
23:02past
23:03students uh Isabel is from Spain Yuko is
23:07Japanese and khed is from
23:11Malaysia and it's a point in the
23:13conversation where Isabelle who is from
23:17cevil is talking about
23:21cevil so I was telling one of my friends
23:25yeah we have all streets full of orange
23:26Tre trees and he asked me but don't you
23:28eat the oranges no they're very bitter
23:30it's impossible they're really bitter
23:32and uh Yuko then says must be a wild
23:36one wild orange
23:39tree Wild by the way the pluses indicate
23:42the length of the pores so when she says
23:47wild it's a repetition of course of what
23:50she said but it seems to be a
23:52comprehension check as well do you know
23:53what I mean by wild khed
23:57says which I would categorize as a
24:01minimal clarification request and
24:04Isabelle also says
24:07wild
24:10repetition yes so nobody tries to eat
24:12them the oranges from uh the street
24:16another completion the street
24:19yes no no but do you know why you why do
24:23you use that orange for and Yuko know so
24:26she says for marmalade and says
24:30what yes he was a man of
24:34few few
24:36words um so ma uh Yuko then says
24:39marmalade sweet sort of jam so she's
24:43repeating the word that KH had appeared
24:45not to know and she is then
24:47reformulating re using a different
24:49expression for it and Isabel then said
24:52yeah but for the queens of England but
24:55not for us we don't use it at home just
24:57to thre to each other
24:59and khed says
25:01through now I'm assuming that he's
25:03recognized that it was a verb it could
25:05be that he's actually saying the word t
25:07h r o u g h okay anyway he makes the
25:10sound through Yuko
25:14laughs and Isabelle yes it's true at
25:16Christmas I was having a party with my
25:17friend just a dinner very quiet and
25:20suddenly we went in the balcony mhm says
25:25Khaled somebody throws us an orange and
25:28Yuka says ha it went push to the wall
25:34and then HED
25:35says is that traditional way to
25:38celebrate something or
25:40what so he's asking for cultural
25:43background Isabelle says no and just he
25:45says just just to annoy so a
25:47confirmation check to bother us and then
25:50they
25:52laugh now there's nothing unusual about
25:55that conversation it just illustrates
25:57how three International students
25:59effectively sort out their communication
26:02problems as they arise in interaction so
26:06summarizing what I've said so far
26:09listening comprehensives can be complex
26:12we can fail in various ways as listeners
26:15we can not hear we can mishar we can
26:20misunderstand and we can not understand
26:24and the resources we use in one way
26:26listening where we don't have the chance
26:28to reply are made up of three types of
26:31knowledge which we apply as seems
26:34relevant when it comes to two-way
26:36listening to normal conversation
26:39listeners and speakers generally
26:41cooperate to make sense of each other
26:45and they use a range of interactive
26:47adjustments and all this is true of
26:50communicating in our first language but
26:52we're more aware of it when we're
26:54listening to a foreign language in fact
26:57we're more aware in particular things
26:58going wrong in the foreign
27:01language so the next question is why
27:05does listening matter for international
27:08students and I think it matters because
27:11students level of listening skill can
27:14either open up or close off access to
27:19two main types of experience there's the
27:23access to the academic knowledge in
27:25their
27:26program and there is the access to
27:29informal language learning potentially
27:32in the university community around
27:35them so I'm going to look at academic
27:38knowledge first um and at Edinburgh we
27:42measure the listening skills of some
27:46International students through uh a test
27:50called team test of English of
27:52matriculation and in the original
27:54version it had four sections vocabulary
27:56listening reading and
28:00writing and some years ago I did a study
28:02of team's
28:05validity that is it's predictive
28:08validity that is how well it predicts a
28:12student's eventual academic success in
28:17this case a year later so the data came
28:21from nearly 300 students who were on
28:23taught one-year Master's
28:27programs and I compared their team
28:30scores and other test English test
28:32scores with their academic outcome um a
28:37year
28:45later the suspense is
28:48Dreadful and what I found was that the
28:51overall
28:52relationship between the team test that
28:55is as a whole and the academic out out
28:58come
29:00was roughly
29:020.3 in other words roughly 10% of this
29:06variation the variance in students
29:09performance a year later could be
29:12statistically explained by their English
29:14ability and to give you an
29:18idea of um how other tests would would
29:22Fair the main two International tests of
29:26English so iot and TOEFL various studies
29:29um have tended to find that the
29:31correlation is very similar to that of
29:34the team test um around about
29:390.35 but within the team sections it was
29:43only
29:45listening that was statistically
29:47significant so almost all the predictive
29:50validity of the four tests was in fact
29:54carried by team Sorry by listening by
29:58the listening
29:59test so why should this be why listening
30:02and not the other skills because most
30:04people most students and probably most
30:06staff are aware of student success or
30:12failure through what they write rather
30:15than what they listen to writing is how
30:18you show what you've
30:19understood so I think that the reasons
30:22for the connection between listening on
30:25the team test and the academic outcome a
30:29year later
30:30are likely to be indirect so I think if
30:34you are a student with poor listening
30:37skills when you arrive in semester one
30:41you don't actually grasp all you need to
30:43of the content of your course you may
30:46well try to compensate for that by doing
30:49a lot of reading but the other students
30:52are doing reading as well and the other
30:54students are also getting better at
30:56listening so you can't actually ever
30:58catch up with
31:01the lack of grasp of the
31:04content secondly uh I know from what
31:08students have told me and my own
31:11experience in Spanish that there are
31:14psychological effects of poor listening
31:16you lose confidence you become anxious
31:19and one General finding about adult
31:22language Learners is most people think
31:25they are the weakest in the class
31:44[Music]
32:28but many International students in
32:30various surveys have reported finding it
32:32difficult to establish relationships
32:35friendships with Native students and the
32:38other thing is that there's a sort of a
32:40conflict a tension between the role of
32:43student student doing a course at
32:46University and being a language
32:50learner and I'm going to say a little
32:52bit more about
32:54that at this point I need to mention
32:57that the sort of a
32:58advice that second language researchers
33:02and therefore teachers tend to give to
33:04language
33:05Learners uh much of it is derived from
33:08what was called good language learner
33:11studies in the 70s uh among the the main
33:16um researchers in this area was uh evil
33:18in Hatch this is a quotation from what
33:21she wrote so she says Learners should
33:24practice saying her echoing parts of s
33:28es they don't understand they should be
33:30told to use um um or whatever fillers
33:34they can to show they really are
33:37trying if the learner gets to recycle
33:40the same topic several times with the
33:42same or different native speakers he
33:45will then have the vocabulary he can
33:48recycle the topic again with another
33:50person and pay attention to his syntax
33:53he should be taught not to give up in
33:56any contact with a native
34:00speaker so that's what a leading uh
34:04applied linguist native speaker applied
34:06linguist in this case recommends we
34:09should be advising students to do now
34:12there's a wonderful essay by a Danish
34:15academic called Peter
34:17harder and he brilliantly captured the
34:20problem with this uh his his essay was
34:24subtitled um on the reduced person
34:27personality of the second language
34:29learner and this is what he said one
34:32gets the picture of a very well- defined
34:34social role when one imagines the
34:36learner assiduously repeating bits of
34:39the previous utterance blocking out
34:41interruptions by saying um um sticking
34:44Like Glue to unfortunate natives who
34:46said hello the picture that emerges is
34:49that of an utter
34:51Pest and this the learner unless he's an
34:54unusually callous or charming person is
34:57likely to be acutely aware
35:00of uh I have a shorter simpler quote
35:03from one of my students which I think
35:05says very much the same thing an
35:07undergraduate came to see me about his
35:09problems in understanding what the
35:12British students he was studying with
35:15were saying and when I said well don't
35:17you remember in our language classes in
35:19the summer you were very good at getting
35:21people to clarify he so looked World
35:24weary and he said yes but I'm the only
35:26foreign student
35:28so I can't ask very much so when it
35:32comes to the social side of things the
35:34learner cannot as it were chain
35:36everything chain all the discourse to
35:38learning he has to he or she has to play
35:42the role of being part of the group and
35:44not necessarily part of the group who is
35:47there because they want to improve their
35:51English so I was interested in finding
35:53out more about the ways in which
35:55International students manage to
35:58practice listening in informal
36:03settings so a couple of years ago I
36:07carried out a project I called ilsa
36:11which is um informal listening and
36:13speaking encounters so I asked Edinburgh
36:16postgraduates what type of speaking
36:19practice they engaged in outside the
36:22language classroom and what advice they
36:24would have for incoming students
36:28there are 105
36:31responses and as you'll see just over
36:35half the students said they'd made less
36:38progress in lisening than they expected
36:41and most of the others said they hadn't
36:42made any more than they' expected so
36:46only about 10% of the group that I
36:50asked reported that they had made more
36:53progress than they uh predicted they
36:57would
37:00I asked them to estimate the times they
37:02spent each day uh listening or talking
37:06talking meaning listening and
37:11speaking and you'll see that the there's
37:15about half an hour's difference overall
37:17between those in the a group who
37:19reported less progress and the other two
37:22but there's no real difference in the
37:23overall figures of B and C however if
37:27you look at the red figure you'll see
37:29that there's a big difference in the
37:31amount of time that the C group reported
37:34talking so there's some evidence that
37:37although the overall time that students
37:42spend listening or talking is similar in
37:46B and C there is something about getting
37:49more practice in talking which is
37:51associated with feeling that you've made
37:54more
37:56progress going to give you a couple of
37:58quotes from the students that I
38:01interviewed as part of the study a Cuban
38:04PhD student I'll let you read it because
38:06you can read it faster than I can say
38:21it NOC says they don't correct you one
38:24of the complaints from International
38:27students to me personally but on behalf
38:29of the British nation is that we don't
38:31we don't correct them enough and of
38:33course for us if you correct somebody in
38:36a conversation a normal conversation
38:38unless you're a teacher in the classroom
38:41um it's socially marked you're listening
38:44not to what people are saying but to the
38:46way that that they're saying it but
38:48anyway he says don't isolate
38:50yourself this is a quote from a Chinese
38:56student
39:06so she is equally convinced that this is
39:09advice that should go to the students
39:11who are coming
39:12in um I leave you to work out which of
39:14the two had in fact made much greater
39:16progress than than the other but the
39:19point is students come with relatively
39:22fixed ideas which may be malleable uh as
39:26to how they're going to improve their
39:28listening outside the classroom so the
39:32implications of the inssa study seem to
39:34me that we need to persuade students
39:37that informal conversation is a valid
39:40and important way of improving your
39:43English it's not just
39:46talking and secondly we need to
39:48encourage students to listen out for
39:50potential learning points in the
39:52conversations we assume they're having
39:55with in English with other students an
39:58example I'm going to give you is of
39:59bottle a bottle of a bottle
40:02of Chinese student uh told me in a
40:06speaking class that she'd had great
40:08difficulty talking to her German
40:10flatmate because he often didn't
40:12understand what she said and she said he
40:14asked me what the book was I was reading
40:16and I told him it was a bottle
40:18of so I then said a bottle of what he
40:22said no no that's what he said it's not
40:24a bottle of what it's it's it's a bottle
40:26of
40:28there was some recognition smiles and at
40:31which point I said I went to my strategy
40:33of Last Resort and said can you spell it
40:35and she said yes a b o u t l o v e now
40:42potentially a little incident like that
40:45could alert the speaker to the fact that
40:47there are certain sounds that they need
40:49to make differently if they're going to
40:51stand a chance of being
40:55understood lastly
40:58listening to students at Edinburgh um
41:01under the
41:03internationalization
41:05strategy um it seems to me that the
41:08future success of the strategy is going
41:10to depend in part
41:12on the ways in which the university
41:15takes into account what today's students
41:19have to say and I think the basic issue
41:23that the university faces was night
41:25nicely neatly summed up by this thai
41:29student who said I'm a non-native
41:31speaker student in fact the language
41:33problem might be a problem just for me
41:35but the university is likely to increase
41:38Foreigner students by about 30% maybe so
41:42implying that in her particular course
41:45maybe she was the only person with
41:46problems but then thinking ahead
41:49something the university needs to think
41:52about so I collected some data on
41:55International students perception of
41:57lectures um the acronym is isole I
42:02collected the
42:06data in the Autumn of last
42:09year and it was collected from students
42:11who had taken the team test and I got
42:14126
42:18replies what I did was I gave them a a
42:22two-part questionnaire in the first part
42:24I listed 12 pieces of adice device
42:27commonly given to lecturers who teach
42:29International
42:31students uh and they were derived from
42:33work by uh Teresa Morel in Spain so
42:37these are the first
42:46five and these are the other
42:55seven the orientation of the study was
42:57to regard the students I was asking as
42:59experts in listening or rather people
43:02with a growing expertise in listening to
43:05Second Language lectures what I asked
43:07them to do was to look through the 12
43:09items in the list and to indicate which
43:12three they thought were the most
43:14important and to mark them one two three
43:16and in the second section of the
43:18questionnaire I said is there any other
43:20advice you would give your lecturers
43:22which isn't covered in the 12
43:26points
43:32so um this shows you the first four
43:36items that were ranked in first place
43:40and you'll see that perhaps not
43:41surprisingly control your speed of
43:44speaking was chosen
43:46by practically twice as many students as
43:50the next most
43:51frequently first place advice here are a
43:55couple of students comments
43:59and again this is a student who appears
44:00to be in a group that is largely British
44:04so he says maybe the teachers aren't
44:07aware of the speed they don't notice
44:10it another point of view from somebody
44:13who suggests several things slowing down
44:16I wish they'd slow down a bit uh I wish
44:19they could repeat and emphasize what the
44:22main information is and an interesting
44:24point at the beginning of the semester
44:26that is semester to one it would be good
44:28if lecturers controlled their speed of
44:31speaking a suggestion that lecturers
44:33should be conscious particularly
44:34conscious at the start of the year that
44:37their listeners may not be able to
44:39follow them very
44:43easily now this is a slightly different
44:46picture this shows the cumulative totals
44:49for items that were ranked one or two or
44:53three and you'll see that speed still
44:56emerges as the
44:58first of the as the most mentioned item
45:03but now the second ranked item is look
45:06out for signs of difficulty nobody
45:10said wrote what those signs of
45:14difficulty were
45:15so it seems that students assumed that
45:19lecturers will know what the signs of
45:21difficulty are and we'll do something
45:23about it I know for example that uh
45:27in a big room I can't actually look out
45:30for frowns but it's quite easy to see
45:34one student turning to look at another
45:36student's notes which to me is a
45:38suggestion that the student who's
45:40looking is not sure that they've
45:42understood but presumably there is a
45:44wide range of signs of difficulty but
45:47interestingly none of the students said
45:49what they were it was just assumed that
45:51they
45:52were going to be
45:55visible and then the next most
45:58frequently uh chosen advice was about
46:00selecting and adapting
46:03examples two comments here from
46:05different students both referring to
46:08cultural
46:10difference asking lecturers to make sure
46:14that they take care that the the
46:16examples that they may be used to using
46:18from years before are actually going to
46:20be ones that are accessible to
46:24International
46:25students
46:28when it came to creating a relaxed
46:31atmosphere um
46:34two opposite views students saying
46:37lectures should be humorous and then one
46:40saying please don't always tell jokes
46:42only understood by British and
46:45Europeans this reminded me of an email
46:47that I was sent a couple of years ago
46:49here it is from a Chinese
46:55student
47:04I eventually got my answer down to 25
47:07words I'm willing to send it to you if
47:10you want to know what it was now among
47:12the other issues mentioned by the
47:13students the ones that they had
47:15literally empty space for on the
47:17questionnaire they mentioned timing
47:20largely the fact that lecturers t try to
47:23cram in too much material into 50
47:25minutes something on supplementary
47:29materials there was a bit on the use of
47:31language which tended to be that they
47:33felt lecturers were using language that
47:36was too
47:38formal um which surprised me I would
47:40have thought it would have been too
47:41informal for a student uh International
47:44students point of view and then
47:45something on the assumptions of shared
47:47knowledge I'm just going to
47:51mention the assumptions of shared
47:53knowledge don't assume that all students
47:54have the same background on the subject
47:56matter
47:58second quote I suppose lecturers should
48:00introduce the background of some
48:02important technical concept then we'll
48:04probably more quickly keep this
48:05knowledge in memory so this seems to be
48:07different from cultural assumptions
48:10culturally weighted examples it's
48:12actually about what lecturers assume
48:15students know within the subject
48:19area so my conclusion the the the
48:23pointers that I think we can pick up
48:25from the is poll data clearly speaks
48:29slower lecturers should keep an eye out
48:31for signs of listening
48:35distress ensure that examples are
48:38accessible and create opportunities for
48:42students uh
48:49questions
48:52now at First Sight you might think that
48:55those are relatively
48:58uncontroversial but if we assume that
49:00lecturers are open to the advice that we
49:04should reduce our speed of speaking and
49:07also encourage students to contribute
49:10questions The Logical con con sequence
49:15of those two adjustments is that we have
49:18to be prepared to cover Less in the
49:22standard 50-minute lecture this would
49:24actually be in line with some Recent
49:27research in Sweden a couple of studies
49:29there concluded that the implication of
49:31really taking International students
49:34into account is that less information
49:37can be delivered in lecture form so one
49:41way to do that would be to follow the
49:43recommendations by SE several of the
49:45students which is to put more material
49:48to make more material available online
49:51which students could either study before
49:55or after the lecture and another would
49:59be
50:00to encourage students to ask for
50:03clarification by using what I have
50:05called uh question pauses these will be
50:08pauses of two to three minutes at a
50:10couple of points in the lecture where by
50:13announcing the question pause the
50:15lecturer marks the fact that questions
50:18aren't just allowed but they're also
50:22expected and by making these two
50:24relatively simple adjustments I think we
50:26may may allow the natural mechanisms of
50:30conversational repair negotiation of
50:33meaning to come into play into the
50:35lecture theater as they do in
50:39conversation I have one last
50:52quotation I agree with that but then I
50:54would because I wrote it uh
50:5720 years ago so my feeling is if if we
51:01don't make the sort of institutional
51:03adjustments that I've mentioned there's
51:06a risk that International students are
51:08going to remain as it were audience
51:11members rather than participants and
51:14what I'm really proposing is that we
51:16need to find ways of making our lectures
51:19more like academic conversations in
51:22which listeners help speakers to make
51:25themselves better understood
51:27thank you very
51:39much well I think that was a a model of
51:43clear uh a clear lecture um I'm sure
51:46there were no signs of distress
51:48throughout that from the audience and I
51:50think also you gave us some very
51:51important messages for how we might
51:53improve the way we um managed to teach
51:56all our students uh from the analysis of
51:58what you've done with International
52:00students we do have some time for
52:02questions and I've got some roving mics
52:05here so if I could ask you to put your
52:07hand up and wait for the microphone
52:09before you answer the question
52:23so hi thanks for the talk I teach on the
52:26MC in economics here and we have a
52:28problem with our International students
52:30where students who are from a country
52:32where there are lots of other people
52:33from that country will often sort of
52:35segregate and their language doesn't
52:37improve as much as people who you know
52:39if you come from I don't know what
52:40Bhutan no one else speaks bhutanese you
52:42you mix and you learn and you move on
52:44better and I wonder if you have more
52:45suggestions on how we can sort of stop
52:48that behavior I I sort of get the
52:49feeling that students think at the
52:50beginning well it's just a bit easier
52:52you know my English isn't so good right
52:53now I'll learn it later and then they
52:55get trapped and they sort of never
52:57really improved so I wonder if you have
52:58any suggestions about
53:01that um it's very difficult uh it's
53:05particularly difficult now because as
53:08far as I can see I mean the main
53:12international student group now are
53:16Chinese and I think they are much more
53:19dominant numerically than say the
53:22Japanese were 20 years ago or Arabic
53:26speakers were 30 years ago um I'm also
53:30aware that there's a much stronger at
53:33least it seems to me I'm an outsider but
53:36I think there's a much stronger informal
53:38Network among Chinese students now here
53:42also linked with Chinese students who
53:44have been in here before and I think for
53:48uh I mention Chinese because they are
53:50the dominant group at the moment I think
53:52it's as you say it's very easy for them
53:54to slip into habit of going to their own
53:59fellow language speakers for
54:02help um as I hinted I think British
54:06students would actually do the same if
54:08they were foreign language students even
54:10if they're foreign language students not
54:12students of other subjects in other
54:14countries from a practical point of view
54:16there needs to be a good reason if you
54:18like I think why a student
54:21doesn't um mix all the time with their
54:25own nationality um and one reason could
54:29be that they join a student society
54:33which is in whatever the thing is that
54:36they're most interested in because if
54:38you encourage students to join uh a
54:41society they go to that Society because
54:45that's the reason for for going there
54:47they don't actually go uh there for the
54:50purpose visibly ostensibly of improving
54:53their English but they would um and I
54:57think that I think partly it is a
54:59question of numbers larger numbers than
55:02than we've had before but also
55:05um I feel from my point of view um in
55:09the ELC as I said one thing we need to
55:12persuade our International students to
55:14do is
55:16talk socially to other speakers of
55:20English you know we need to persuade
55:22them that doing that is not just waste a
55:25waste of time it's actually a way in
55:27which they can improve their their
55:30informal learning of
55:32English other
55:38questions uh thank you very much for
55:39that talk Andy Thompson politics um one
55:43of the issues you raised right in the
55:45early stages was the evidence you had
55:47that listening seemed to be the most
55:49important
55:50Dimension uh to language uh learning and
55:54obviously taking in the subjects that
55:56studying you conclude by saying we
55:59should cover Less in the lectures and
56:00move more material
56:02online now I presume you mean here not
56:05simply material to be read uh otherwise
56:08that would seem to be self-defeating in
56:10a way or not self-defeating but it
56:11wouldn't actually encourage the
56:13listening aspect are you uh suggesting
56:16therefore that the materials should as
56:17much as possible be material which they
56:19would listen to uh which would encourage
56:22them to speak as well uh I would yes the
56:25students who suggested it weren't
56:27thinking about listening because they
56:29were talking in various of their
56:31comments they talked about texts that
56:34they could read but I'm aware that it
56:37takes time to record something which you
56:40may be recording only for the people who
56:42are going to access the place where
56:45you're going to put it it's extra load
56:47onto the the
56:48teaching um but I think more generally
56:51other than only focus students attention
56:53on the content of of their course
56:56they would be missing out on a wide
57:00range of audio material on the net not
57:04specifically in their subject but in a
57:07sense listening to
57:08anything improves the psycho motor
57:12skills of coping with language at speed
57:15so provided they're listening to
57:17something that's of interest to them I
57:19would say we should be encouraging them
57:21not just to focus on any material
57:23whether it's audio or reading that is
57:26put up online for them but they should
57:28be taking the opportunity to listen into
57:32who knows lectures like this but also um
57:35other events in Edinburgh as well as
57:37what they can listen to on the
57:41net
57:43okay thank you for the talk attorney
57:46which I enjoyed very much can you hear
57:49me yes um some years ago in the N I'm
57:53thinking of the 1980s there was a
57:57fashion for testing English in according
58:01to its specific purpose the Els test the
58:04precursor of ielt is a very good example
58:06of that do you think that was a good
58:09idea and does team operate in that way
58:12and if not why not okay uh no it doesn't
58:15in fact
58:16team uh is design it's it's not a commun
58:20it isn't a communic test of of
58:22communication and it's not related to
58:24student subject in fact fact although I
58:27haven't yet gone into detail the team
58:30listening test is if I'm being deil
58:35Devil's Advocate is the most
58:38unrealistic test of listening that one
58:40might imagine namely it is a once only
58:45dictation
58:48test yet its results correlate well as
58:52well as overall figures from iot and
58:55tofl with academic outcome and I think
58:58that's
59:00because although dictation is a test of
59:03listening it is classically uh an
59:06integrated skills test because it also
59:08tests one's ability to
59:11write to
59:14identify
59:15words as well as the a general language
59:18competence so arguably the reason why
59:20the team listening section is does
59:23provide a reasonable predictor
59:26of academic outcome a year later is
59:29because it's actually within itself is a
59:32general language proficiency test
59:35delivered as a speaking test but
59:37unrealistic in the sense
59:40that um native speakers might not score
59:43100% on the test um so it doesn't test a
59:46student's ability to extract information
59:48it tests their ability to replicate what
59:51they hear we do allow semantic
59:54equivalence so if
59:56the word problems is actually in the
59:59dictation text they hear if a student
1:00:02writes difficulties we count it right
1:00:04because that's what native speakers do
1:00:06we understand the meaning of something
1:00:08we don't retain necessarily the physical
1:00:11form so that would be my answer that
1:00:14team is definitely a different test from
1:00:17from I and
1:00:19tofl um or else um but
1:00:23seems somehow to tap into something that
1:00:28seems to be an underlying
1:00:30competence students need in order to do
1:00:33well over the course of the next 12
1:00:39months hi there Tony it's um Sarah
1:00:41Henderson from the College of Medicine I
1:00:43was just it's actually a follow on um
1:00:45from a previous question um as I'm sure
1:00:48you appreciate the College of Medicine
1:00:49has um s the largest proportion of
1:00:52online distance learning programs at the
1:00:54University many many of which um and I
1:00:57think possibly related to the importance
1:00:59of listening speaking and interaction
1:01:01with other students and of course many
1:01:03of our students on online distance
1:01:04learning programs don't have any
1:01:07day-to-day um interaction with people
1:01:09that are native speakers um especially
1:01:12those that are on programs that are
1:01:14particularly focused towards
1:01:16International students some that are
1:01:17have entire um cohorts of students for
1:01:20example in various African countries I
1:01:22was wondering what advice you could give
1:01:24to any of the program director
1:01:26that are in similar situations given the
1:01:29importance of listening um interaction
1:01:31with other students and speaking and
1:01:34academic performance and of course in an
1:01:36online
1:01:37environment quite a lot of that element
1:01:39is removed from the teaching
1:01:44situation
1:01:47um so the you're sorry just checking you
1:01:50were asking about this confirmation
1:01:52check um what advice I would give to the
1:01:56the distance learning directors to give
1:01:58to their students to improve their
1:02:00listening
1:02:03okay so um I have to try to remember
1:02:06what it was I wrote yesterday because
1:02:08yesterday I don't think you know I wrote
1:02:11a unit on listening intended for the
1:02:14distance learning students in particular
1:02:16who would be coming to Edinburgh but
1:02:18wouldn't have access to direct social
1:02:21interaction so I think I would say um
1:02:25what they need to to do is to compensate
1:02:27to find a way of compensating for the
1:02:28fact that they won't have
1:02:30face-to-face um
1:02:32communication practice in the same way
1:02:35that uh students uh doing a conventional
1:02:38course would and I would think I would
1:02:40say I mean as you all gathered my
1:02:43interest is in listening I tend to see
1:02:45listening as a possible answer to quite
1:02:47a lot of things um so if the students
1:02:51are not going to get practice in face
1:02:53Toof face listening I would say we need
1:02:55to maximize
1:02:56what they know about the opportunities
1:02:58that they have on the net for listening
1:03:02in even to discussions um lectures
1:03:07seminars related to the topic that
1:03:09they're doing for their degree there
1:03:12there's now a fantastic range
1:03:15of specialist academic lectures freely
1:03:19available where students can get I think
1:03:21practice like the experience they will
1:03:25have I assuming that on the distance
1:03:27learning courses the students will be
1:03:29listening to
1:03:31lectures some yes and some
1:03:34no okay and I guess some of them may be
1:03:38watching video lectures yeah so again um
1:03:42there are various websites they always
1:03:44seem to be funded by um very religious
1:03:48Americans um nevertheless uh there are
1:03:52certain sites which despite their fun
1:03:56seemed to provide what I regard as very
1:03:59good range of um subjects and topics and
1:04:02I
1:04:03think directing alerting students to the
1:04:06possibilities that are out there um and
1:04:10each time I update my teaching materials
1:04:13I find that there's more out there than
1:04:15there was when I updated it 6 months
1:04:18before I think that is the the way for
1:04:20that I suggest that they advise their
1:04:23students to
1:04:24go
1:04:28questions no well I think now is the
1:04:30time to practice our speaking and
1:04:32listening skills over wine um so I'd
1:04:35like once more to thank Tony Lynch very
1:04:38very much for such an interesting
1:04:40lecture and welcome you all into the
1:04:42reception thank you once
1:04:44[Applause]
1:04:46[Music]
1:04:49again this production is brought to you
1:04:52by the University of
1:04:54Edinburgh

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This page contains the full transcript of Prof. Tony Lynch - The Importance of Listening to International Students by The University of Edinburgh, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 8,459 words across 1,341 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

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