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Precursive Perspective S5 E2 | Go Beyond Delivery: Making Services Value Visible with Jamf — Transcript

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0:04Hi everyone. Welcome back to latest
0:07episode of the Precursive Perspectives.
0:10It's Friday morning in London. Uh for
0:13those of you paying attention to the
0:15UK's weather, which will probably only
0:17be the people in the UK. It's now
0:19starting to rain a little bit, which is
0:20good for uh my wife's plants in the
0:23garden and farmers. Uh so there we go.
0:27Uh, delighted to have on J Allen from J.
0:31How are you, sir?
0:32>> I'm great. JC, how are you doing today?
0:34>> Yeah, very good. Very good. Very good.
0:36I've always said you've got like one of
0:37the best backgrounds, but it actually is
0:40it. Those are shelves, aren't they?
0:41>> I I can I can touch the background. They
0:44are real.
0:45>> I'm an Apple guy to the core. Uh, excuse
0:49the pun, but uh I've uh I've been in the
0:51Apple world for 30 plus years and I
0:54started out my career building some of
0:55the stuff behind me and they all still
0:57work today.
0:58>> Nice. Nice. It that it just looks cool,
1:01doesn't it? That one above your shoulder
1:03just looks cool.
1:04>> Yeah, the old the old Mac Plus is just
1:05one of those classic designs. It'll
1:07never age.
1:08>> Love it. Love it. Um good stuff. Can you
1:11can you give folks um uh a little bit
1:14about your background and scope of your
1:16role uh to
1:17>> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, as I said, I've
1:19been in the Apple industry for my entire
1:21career um in services leadership for for
1:25most of that. Um today I work with JF.
1:28Um I've been with them for just over a
1:30decade. Uh, JF is a device management
1:34and security company that focuses on the
1:36Apple ecosystem and I'm the global VP of
1:39professional services uh taking care of
1:42everything from uh obviously the service
1:44delivery to instructorled training
1:47partner certifications uh our MSP arm of
1:51our business etc etc.
1:53>> Okay, cool. Yeah, I mean it's uh it's
1:55it's it's a wide remmit, isn't it?
1:57because you guys are a global team
1:58operating globally, partnering.
2:00Absolutely.
2:01>> So, yeah,
2:02>> quite a few things within that. Some
2:04some inherent natural complexity, I
2:07would say.
2:08>> Uh yeah, I I've got a great leadership
2:10team um that that report up to me uh
2:14across each region. So, uh they make it
2:17they make it a lot easier than it could
2:18be if I had to pull all the strings by
2:21myself.
2:22>> Right. Very good. Very good. I think um
2:24something that you and I have talked
2:26about um is is kind of how services is
2:30becoming much more central to the go to
2:32market motion uh particularly for for
2:35for embedded services teams in software
2:38companies. Um we've both been around the
2:41block. Um what are your observations on
2:44how things have been evolving in recent
2:47years in in in services?
2:50Yeah, it's it's a it's a it's an
2:52interesting space because you've got a
2:55dichotomy of everything changing and
2:58everything staying the same. Like if you
3:00if you look at it, services is probably
3:02one of those areas within SAS that
3:05change slower than other parts of that
3:09uh industry. um like we still take that
3:14deep subject matter expertise and put
3:17them in front of a customer on a
3:18one-to-one basis to to to to transfer
3:22knowledge like that that fundamental
3:24hasn't changed and and is unlikely to
3:27change. Um but around that everything's
3:32changed. So like if you look at your um
3:36how you deliver your services to your
3:38customer, you really need to understand
3:40the segmentation of that uh because um
3:44things have moved so fast and you've got
3:47so much technology in front of you where
3:49customers can now selfs serve. You've
3:51got partner ecosystems that are maturing
3:54and that can uh that can provide service
3:56in in much the same value as you can
3:59yourself if you've done your job right.
4:02Um, and you've got that shift to ARR
4:05type services. So, the the kind of TAM
4:08model and these kind of advisory
4:10services that are starting to become
4:12more and more the norm. Um, as opposed
4:15to that traditional transactional
4:18service.
4:18>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's all fair.
4:21Um, I I like I mean I think there's a
4:24couple of points in there that are
4:25really important. one is I think how
4:29when you look at things through the lens
4:31of like your expertise and you're
4:32bringing your expertise to market, I
4:34think that's I think that's really
4:35important. Um I don't always think that
4:38um services quite understand as well as
4:41they should how that's a a massive
4:43differentiator in your go to market
4:45motion and you want to be more up and to
4:47the left in your sales motion than than
4:49you are right now. demonstrate that
4:51expertise to prosp to prospective
4:54clients.
4:55>> Something we're going to talk a little
4:56bit about later is is the sort of the
4:59services mix. And I think the point that
5:00you raise about like customer
5:03segmentation again is is really
5:05important because I think what AI is
5:07going to do is it's going to flatten
5:09the ability of or it's going to make
5:12it's going to make selfserve and
5:15enablement like potentially much more
5:17easy for vendors. Mhm.
5:19>> Cost is still to be determined.
5:22>> Absolutely.
5:23>> But that's definitely something where
5:25when you've got that long tail which is
5:28often bit more churny
5:31uh want the world but aren't prepared to
5:34pay for it sometimes right from a
5:36services standpoint becomes interesting
5:38I think how we can talk about the role
5:40of AI there. Um you are now operating in
5:44a company recently purchased by
5:46Francisco partners right so correct in a
5:49PE backed business um what's the role of
5:54services in that environment has it
5:57>> is it evolving is it has it changed
6:00maybe to what it was in the past
6:02>> um I I think it's more focused um I
6:06think I think not necessarily changed
6:08because I think most of the motions that
6:10we've lot and and like from a J
6:13perspective, we're very mature. We've
6:15we've been uh we've been through the the
6:18hyperrowth phase. We've been through PE,
6:21we've gone public, we've gone back to PE
6:23now again. So, we've been we've been
6:26through a couple of cycles on this. So,
6:28we're we're lucky in that sense in that
6:31I think we started off really well. We
6:33were a servicesled company in the early
6:36days like many of the the the kind of
6:39software companies that evolved up
6:40through the 90s and 2000s. It was okay
6:44we've we we know how to solve people's
6:46problems and we've got a nifty bit of
6:49software that we can leave behind that
6:51helps people out. Um that that's so we
6:54we had that very heavyweighted services
6:56mentality in it. We went through the
6:58hyperrowth phase where we needed to
7:00suppress that down. Um, and now we're
7:02into that normalized phase where we're a
7:05more mature company. We've got the span
7:07of customers across all the different
7:09segments and all of that. But I think
7:11what's happened with with PE coming back
7:13in is that laser focus and particularly
7:16with Francisco partners, they've got a a
7:19team of operators who span across the
7:22different seuite uh expertise. So, I'm
7:26working with a a former CEO who's now on
7:29their operator team, and he works with
7:30me and my boss, Sam Johnson, our CEO,
7:33uh, C, sorry, CCO. Um, and um, and he's
7:38bringing his expertise across the
7:39portfolio to bear on us. So, the the
7:42standards, the expectations, the things
7:45that work, the things that don't work,
7:47which is quite useful sometimes. We've
7:49we've had a couple of learnings already
7:50from them on things that that we were
7:53doing that uh they they kind of went
7:56there be dragons. Um I go go if you want
7:59to go and they're good at that. They're
8:01not going to say you do it our way or
8:03you don't do it at all, but they will
8:05highlight the the the risk factors.
8:07>> Yeah. I mean there's different types of
8:09PE, isn't there? There's there's some
8:11absolutely from an operated perspective
8:12that are more consultive, which FP is,
8:15whereas some are more prescriptive and
8:18been through that.
8:19>> Yeah, you've been through that with the
8:20likes of Vista, for example, right?
8:24That are that way inclined. Um, and it
8:27creates a different type of environment.
8:29Like, so it's it's important to be aware
8:31of what type of PE firm you're working
8:33in and also what stage of the cycle that
8:36you're in because year 1 will be very
8:39different to year three to year five and
8:41so on and so forth. Um I think one of
8:43the things that you do that that is
8:47important is you don't pigeon hole
8:49yourself in delivery. So you've you've
8:51>> right you you kind of you're quite aware
8:53of the impact on sales and as you as you
8:56say
8:56>> absolutely
8:56>> the span of um remit across partners and
9:00customer attention and these types of
9:02things. Um how have you embraced some of
9:05the more commercial elements of the job?
9:09um because services is a critical lever
9:12to the GTM at J. So like how have you
9:15embraced that or andor kind of worked on
9:18it for yourself?
9:19>> Um em embraced uh maybe had it shoved
9:23into my arms
9:25if you're a bit more apt. Um it's it's
9:28something that you grow into. I think um
9:30if I look back to to when I I'm
9:34fortunate I came from running my own
9:36business and and I had to have that span
9:39across every aspect of the business. So
9:43uh on any given day I would take off my
9:46PS hat and I would put on my sales hat.
9:48I take that off and I put on my finance
9:50hat. So um that helps a lot. Um but
9:55working with true industry experts uh in
9:59the likes of a CRO and a CFO and these
10:03type of people who are domain experts um
10:05you really need to learn their language.
10:08You need to learn what's important to
10:09them. That if you had come to me even
10:12five years ago and asked me about
10:14customer acquisition costs or lifetime
10:16values or any of these kind of things,
10:19ASC 606, these were all alien terms to
10:22me back then. Um,
10:26learning that language is the absolute
10:28key to to working well within an
10:31organization because you need to
10:33understand what's important to the
10:35person across the desk from you. in the
10:37same way as we do in PS when we go into
10:39a room with a customer. Now, we know we
10:42can talk techto all day long and have
10:44very short lines of communication and
10:46that's how we get our work done with the
10:47customer. Internally, your internal
10:50customer, you need to be thinking that
10:52same way as well like uh I talk all the
10:55time about NR or impact of services. um
10:59not a common language for any of my
11:01team. It's not something they need to
11:03worry about. But as the the head of
11:06department, if I don't know the impact
11:09of that, then I can't sell the value of
11:11services back into the business. I think
11:13that's really key to to to the evolution
11:16of um I suppose that leadership role
11:20from my perspective coming from a uh
11:24let's say a a team manager up to a
11:28regional head up to a global leader and
11:32and P&L owner. Um you you evolve as you
11:35go along and you learn to how to speak
11:37to the audience that's across the desk
11:39from you.
11:40>> Yep. Okay. No, I think um
11:44not being afraid to have an eyeball to
11:45eyeball conversation with your peers,
11:48bosses, dotted lines
11:50>> and um is important and understanding
11:53what they're targeted on. Right. And the
11:55difference between targets and KPIs,
11:57right?
11:58>> Absolutely. Yeah. Target targets are one
12:00of those key things because if you don't
12:03set in my world, if you don't have uh
12:06your sales team having a s specific
12:09services target
12:10>> and something that they're hand held
12:12accountable to.
12:13>> Yeah.
12:14>> Uh you can sell the value of what you've
12:17got every day, but if they're not
12:19targeted, then they're not comped on it.
12:21If they're not comped on it, they're not
12:22interested in it. Uh that's the the
12:24nature of sales. So you need to
12:27understand that full thread and be able
12:29to pull it all the way back to source.
12:32>> Yeah, 100%. And um on one of your
12:35comments about like it's a thing that as
12:38a leader one would would would care
12:41about and potentially be targeted on
12:42like you talk about the impact of
12:45services on net revenue retention. that
12:47that is more more it's it's something
12:51that services leaders now more often are
12:53actually targeted on or have some comp
12:56associated with and then as you go down
12:59the organization the management team may
13:01do
13:02>> but your individual contributors like
13:04they may not and they may not care know
13:07whatever it may be
13:09>> but I think drawing draw being able to
13:11tell the story and show the impact is
13:14very important so for example
13:17You know, a lot of people focus on
13:18launch times or time to value, which is
13:20fine,
13:21>> but one of the things that you should
13:23know in your organization is um what is
13:26the the gap between go live and
13:29additional license purchases or
13:31additional services purchases on average
13:34when we sell to our ICP. My organization
13:37usually it's within 90 days, right? we
13:40see some form of expansion either in
13:42terms of additional licenses, additional
13:43products, whatever it might might be.
13:46Which means that if you compress that
13:47launch time, yeah,
13:49>> we've done that by 30% in my in my
13:51business over the last couple of years,
13:53you are pulling forward expansion
13:55revenue, which is impacting your NR
13:57number. And so people understanding that
14:00you know Bob Susan which are always the
14:02names of my examples like if we can do
14:05this we'll we'll drive more upsell we'll
14:07drive more expansion and that's what's
14:09contributing to NR and what you
14:11typically find is your high performers
14:13or your high potentials the people that
14:15aren't going to be you know an IC
14:17they're going to go on to management
14:19will be like oh okay that's interesting
14:20you know I'll I'll
14:23>> that's exactly it yeah and what what I
14:25do is I I tie my KPIs and the things
14:28that I'm accountable for all the way
14:31down the the chain, but switch the
14:33language of it as it goes down along
14:35because as you said like your your
14:38individual contributor who may be an
14:40absolute rock star is focused on the
14:43outcomes for the customers and making
14:45sure that they that they deliver a great
14:47quality service and they meet the needs
14:48of the customer,
14:49>> right?
14:50>> They don't know that that's actually
14:52very tightly tied to that NR impact,
14:55>> right? But if you're if you're setting
14:58their KPIs on, hey, you need to you need
15:01to hit that first time value within the
15:04the first 30 days, you need to have true
15:07time to value within 90 days. Um, I can
15:10measure that then at the management
15:12layer of that cohort of engineers and go
15:15right across these people. We're seeing
15:16a shove in the right direction. And
15:18again, we measure the amount of data
15:21we're collecting is is is crazy. uh in
15:24one sense like uh if we didn't have AI,
15:28I would never get to the bottom of it.
15:29And even with AI, I don't know if I'm
15:32truly at the bottom of it yet.
15:33>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The the other thing
15:35about tying the KPIs is also tying the
15:37incentive plans, right? So I think some
15:39some people struggle with like what kind
15:41of incentive plan should we shape for
15:43either you know I know some people write
15:46their own incentive plans some instances
15:48because companies don't understand
15:49services it's like what should we target
15:51people on or what should be incentives
15:52on and inevitably you see utilization in
15:55there which is okay I mean I don't agree
15:58with it because you don't control it
15:59it's so influenced by sales
16:02>> but like per your example right and this
16:05is why I think it's so important for be
16:07people to realize realiz that
16:08profitability matters because not just
16:10because profitability impacts company
16:12performance. So greater services gross
16:15margin contributes more margin to the
16:16company but it could allow you to fund
16:19things. So if you create more
16:20profitability in your shop and you
16:22control your shop and your P&L, you can
16:25choose with HR and finances approval to
16:27pay people a bonus out of margin. Now if
16:30you then start saying right well we we
16:32we'll give you a bonus based on launch
16:35times and quality because it's got to be
16:37velocity and quality then and again you
16:39can that's how you can drive behaviors
16:42for some to to impact that NR. So I
16:44think yeah KPI ties incentive alignment
16:47is really important. what um you talked
16:50about data. So, what metrics
16:54like are have for you are are are the
16:57things that you're looking at inside of
16:59a a PE uh back company? And I appreciate
17:03some of these might be relatively
17:04sensitive, so you don't need to cover
17:06ones that you can't talk about, but
17:07maybe some of the ones that that that
17:09are in important or instructive.
17:12>> Yeah. And I I can talk at a high level
17:14without getting into the the the actuals
17:16because I I I think they're very common
17:18across most most uh PS businesses. So
17:22first one is gross margin. Now we we
17:25live and die on our our profitability. I
17:28think I think when you're in an early
17:30stage of um of your evolution, it's not
17:34as important. But as you start to grow
17:36in into that maturity curve, um, making
17:40sure that you run a sensible line of
17:43business, and that's the way I've always
17:45looked at it, like you can you can you
17:47can throw a dart at a border. You can
17:49have this aspirational percentage that
17:52is the the industry aims for. Um,
17:56there's so much variability in there. As
17:59you said earlier on, like we're at the
18:00mercy of sales. We deliver now. We we
18:03guarantee the quality of delivery unless
18:06you own that sales organization. Some
18:09people do. Some people have a services
18:11sales team. Uh we've we've we've seen
18:14across our business the putting overlay
18:16teams in. You suddenly get into these
18:19conflicts of who owns the customer and
18:21who has the right to have which
18:22conversation with them. So I've always
18:25been of the view of get your sales team
18:28uh your have one sales team and have
18:30them be awesome at it. But if they're at
18:32arms length to you and they don't report
18:34up to you, uh, then your your gross
18:38margin is at the mercy of them. What I
18:40do on the inverse side of that is I look
18:42at the expenses and I go, how can I
18:44rightsize my team for the needs of the
18:46business? Um, uh, if we've got x number
18:50of hours uh, per year coming in, there's
18:54no point me having 2x number of FTEEs
18:57sitting on the the fence kind of
18:59twiddling their tongues and sipping
19:00coffee. So having the right size
19:02business for it does have that gross
19:04margin impact. I also use our partner
19:07network as well to to to flex. Um there
19:11are there we've got a program called the
19:13service delivery partner program here at
19:15JF uh which I've developed over the
19:18years and they are the ones who um who
19:22take that extra load when we need it. So
19:26you can you can manage your your your
19:29P&L much better than if you go okay well
19:33I need to bring on another FTE because
19:36we're starting to move in that direction
19:38and then you have a little quiet period
19:41suddenly you're taking on the cost of
19:42that. So there's there's there's a lot
19:45goes into that. So that's gross margin
19:46on that side. Uh time to value is is
19:50time to first value time to full value.
19:52These kind of things are always
19:54important in it. Seesat is the most
19:56important one to me. Like I we've got a
19:59Slack channel where I've got the seesats
20:01feeding in and every time that nudges
20:05down like we we run a in internally
20:08within our own team, we're at 4.83 out
20:11of five. Um our partners when they
20:14deliver on any given week are either a
20:17point above us or a point below us. And
20:20I get competitive with my team on that.
20:21like we've got a really good
20:23well-trained partner network and I I g I
20:26gify that with with our crew and go
20:28>> yeah yeah I expected that to be way
20:30lower. Yeah.
20:31>> No, we're really lucky because again
20:33this is within our service delivery
20:35partners. So these are a these are a
20:37microbubble. They're an extension of our
20:39team as opposed to our wider partner
20:41network where we do a lot of enablement
20:44with them as well but down to the
20:46subcontractors essentially. So that sees
20:48thing is really really important as well
20:50in terms of just making sure that you've
20:52got the the right measurements and
20:54utilization is still a core one. I agree
20:58with your points that um that a lot of
21:01that's outside of your control, but
21:03again, I take that back on myself and I
21:05need to make sure my team's right sized
21:07and I've got that overflow of the
21:09partner of those service delivery
21:11partners or subcontractors as to to to
21:14make sure that I keep my utilization as
21:17tight as possible and run it up towards
21:19that kind of rightsized for for what the
21:22business needs of us. And so your
21:24partner network, are they are they fully
21:27delivering on your behalf with the
21:29customer? So they're third party
21:30services companies delivering on your
21:32behalf with the client.
21:34>> Yeah. So we've got we've got two models.
21:35We've got the the broad partner network
21:37that we do technical enablement for and
21:40that is delivered on their paper to
21:42their customers
21:44>> and then we've got the service delivery
21:46partner network which are uh our
21:49subcontractors
21:51and they're trained to a different tier
21:53uh they get access to all the same
21:56resources that I give my own team. When
21:58I built our technical enablement
22:00practice, yeah, um I wanted it so that
22:03whatever we built was applicable both to
22:06our own PSEs but also to the partner
22:08network outside as well and make sure
22:10that we were adding value, not having to
22:13uh like in the old days we had to redact
22:15stuff and we had to rewrite stuff
22:17because there was the internal facing
22:19stuff and there was the external. I just
22:22treat them as part of our family and
22:23make sure that they're certified to that
22:25and that's why they deliver to such a
22:27high level. Um is u but that's on our
22:30paper. So we bring in the work, we
22:33subcontract it out to them, they deliver
22:34on our paper and we measure against
22:36that.
22:37>> Yeah. And would they be working as a
22:39hybrid with your team or would they have
22:41their own team but just through on your
22:43paper?
22:43>> Uh they'd have their own team. Uh there
22:46there are occasions where where we'll
22:48have that hybrid place, but we've we've
22:50gotten to a maturity point where we've
22:52got an awful lot of standard statements
22:54to work. Um and it's kind of it's
22:57formulaic. That's how you get
22:58scalability in all of this.
23:00>> Yeah. No, like so. So, um a lot of what
23:03they're delivering, they've been
23:04pre-trained, uh to deliver it in the
23:06same way as our own internal team have
23:08been pre-trained for it.
23:09>> So that when they go out on site, there
23:11is a rhythm to it. there's a formula to
23:14it and it's very definable outcomes that
23:16you can bring to that.
23:17>> Yeah. No, 100%. I mean in our in our
23:19customer base, we they're always working
23:22with third party ecosystem. Um that's
23:26usually based on the size of the types
23:27of businesses that we work with and I
23:30think um I think it's evolved from being
23:33like just like a capacity extension uh
23:36over the years, right? where it's like
23:39you know again that that hyperrowth
23:41period that you mentioned it's just like
23:42well we can't slow down sales therefore
23:44we need we need to extend the capacity
23:47of our team I think that's really at
23:49least amongst the companies that we
23:51worked with into something a little bit
23:54more coherent now which is like how do
23:56you create an ecosystem that helps you
23:58source and deliver on market opportunity
24:01because you don't really want to be the
24:03ones that get it right they're never
24:05competing over a dollar right They're
24:07never over or a pound or a euro or
24:10whatever. They It's very much like
24:12there's a
24:14>> elegant strategy where they understand
24:16that and services GTM and finance are
24:20aligned. I mean you your you know your
24:25internal services organization should be
24:27the premium the most expensive in the
24:28market. Why? Because otherwise you're
24:30cannibalizing opportunities for your for
24:33your third party put in. Um, and I think
24:37>> yeah, one of one of the key things there
24:39in citing that is I've always said that
24:42I don't want to be anywhere where I'm
24:44not adding value.
24:46>> So if if your partner network are
24:48capable of delivering that value at
24:52whatever price they're going to be so
24:54much better because they're closer to
24:56the customer. they're in in time zone in
24:58language uh in understanding that wider
25:02customer um ecosystem let's say like
25:06when I was a partner and and that and
25:08this is where I came from I used to be a
25:10JF partner I used to be out there
25:12installing Jam software but I was also
25:15installing all of their Macs I was I was
25:18setting up their Wi-Fi networks I was
25:20doing everything I was the IT company
25:23for that customer
25:24>> right
25:25>> that's where the true value of the
25:26partner is getting them to pay enough
25:29attention or want to pay enough
25:31attention to the JAM slice and want to
25:33certify up to that level of expertise
25:36where you can back off and go they're
25:38adding as much value as we are. That's
25:40that's the holy grail of of partner
25:43enablement and that's that's what we
25:45focus on really is trying to get them up
25:47to that level so that we can back out
25:49that we've got an unending stream of
25:51customers. We're never going to run out
25:53of work. Um, but as each new partner
25:57comes on, if we can get them to a level
25:59where we're no longer needed because
26:01they're they're driving as good a
26:03quality of service, that's a really
26:05really healthy ecosystem.
26:07>> Yeah. Yeah. No, very good. And so, um,
26:11you you you talked earlier a little bit
26:12about kind of the shift in some of the
26:15types of services that that companies
26:17are providing and that customers expect.
26:20Now, they don't think in terms of a
26:22services catalog. they just think in
26:24terms of like their needs. Um
26:27>> I think there's a couple of interesting
26:29points around this that we can discuss,
26:30but like from your perspective
26:34like how how is that mix of services
26:38changing in your world or like what do
26:40you provide and then how do you see that
26:44changing or or or evolving over time and
26:47again obviously respectful of what you
26:49can talk about publicly.
26:50>> Yeah, absolutely. like we're we're
26:53we're uh we've narrowed down our
26:56services catalog significantly like we
26:59we keep a lot of stuff in the background
27:02but what we actually publish outwards
27:04like a lot of this comes back to basics
27:06you on board a customer well and you'll
27:09retain that customer. Um, so we've got
27:12an awful lot of focus on uh that
27:14onboarding phase and again we've got
27:17lots of different modalities um across
27:19our business from that self-s serve
27:22piece to to the hightouch to full-blown
27:24implementation. Um and um so with with
27:29our we we we've been evolving as as an
27:32organization from onrem to cloud to SAS
27:37and as we've been going along that
27:39journey we've been kind of uh kind of
27:42streamlining uh our product portfolio
27:46into a platform now essentially at this
27:49stage
27:49>> right
27:50>> so we'll enable the customer and at net
27:52new logo in in the enterprise we'll
27:54enable them on the platform with a
27:56single s so we'll come in it's uh
28:00everybody talks about outcomes these
28:01days like the outcomes have always
28:03existed um like it's it's it's always
28:06been about you know what let's get like
28:09let's get the customer from zero to hero
28:12like we had that back in the 90s like
28:14it's it's now
28:16>> it's whole it's the outcome zero crap is
28:18>> it is it and I you know what
28:20>> it's always been that [laughter]
28:21>> yeah and I I I I I probably have
28:24t-shirts all the way along the way.
28:28>> All the a different thing.
28:29>> Out comes pricing for software. That's
28:32different. But everyone's always been No
28:34one's been buying software for the sake
28:35of it. They're trying to solve a problem
28:37and outcome.
28:37>> Exactly. Yeah. And I I'm much more
28:39focused rather than outcomes pricing. I
28:42focus on outcomes alignment. And I think
28:45that's really key with the customer.
28:46Sitting them down, setting expectations
28:49of what you can do for them is really,
28:52really important. um and making sure
28:54that you've got the right again we've
28:56brought it down to a single statement of
28:58work for a new customer. We've got a
29:02single statement of work from a customer
29:04coming from point product to platform.
29:07Um and and it's within that it's all
29:10driven towards outcomes. So we don't we
29:13don't publish the hours anymore. We've
29:16got we've got our own internal
29:17expectations and we've got hey it'll
29:19take this long to do this, it'll take
29:21this long to do this. On the other side
29:23of it, that discovery phase with the
29:26customer is so key to set the right
29:29expectations with them of here's what
29:31we're going to do for you. Here's the
29:33here's where we're going to end up. Is
29:35this what you want? And once you get
29:37that alignment on that, it's what it is.
29:40You go right back to the start and you
29:42go, "Right, here's what I need from you
29:45now. Here's your homework. Here's my
29:47homework." And and be very, very clear
29:49and prescriptive. Once you got those two
29:51things locked in, you're guaranteed that
29:53outcome. You cannot miss that outcome
29:56because the customer knows what their
29:58responsibility is. They know who their
30:00stakeholders are.
30:01>> That all becomes really important.
30:03Really, really, really long way of
30:04saying we shrunk down our catalog.
30:06>> Yeah,
30:07>> we also have bespoke services. So again,
30:10custom scoped stuff and we've been
30:12developing our AI tooling uh inside so
30:15that our sales teams very shortly where
30:18we're we're about to switch this on
30:20where the sales team will be able to to
30:22quote microervices to the customer. Uh
30:25again for that kind of mid-market space
30:27enterprise is that very white glove and
30:29bespoke but evolving as the industry
30:32evolves that mid-market space is is kind
30:35of a okay what do you need to get over
30:37your next hurdle put a wrapper on that
30:41and then way up in the other end of that
30:43lifetime value to the customer we've got
30:46TAM services so moving from that
30:49one-time uh revenue uh exposure or uh
30:54Yeah. Uh to that recurring revenue line
30:57of business that is the the holy grail
30:59of what we're what what SAS wants to be
31:03>> getting into the flow of that. We've
31:04gone into into TAM services as well.
31:07>> Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think when you were
31:10um you you when you're talking about the
31:12metrics you differentiated between like
31:14time to first value and time to full
31:16value and
31:19>> depending on what you sell full value is
31:22like a moving target.
31:23>> Yeah. Absolutely.
31:24>> And and if you're an enterprise type of
31:26solution or you got multiple products
31:28that you can offer to your customers,
31:30that is a that is a moving target quite
31:32literally in terms of like the quotota
31:34that you have aligned to that particular
31:35account because they may have one
31:36product and you want to sell them three.
31:38So
31:40the the the what's interesting and kind
31:42of challenging about the services mix is
31:44it has to be suitably diversified
31:47to meet the customer where they need you
31:49now and where they're going to need you
31:50in the future.
31:51>> Yep. And so the the the classic mistake
31:55is you overengineer the catalog. So
31:57you've got 45 ways to onboard a customer
32:00and then it becomes confusing not just
32:02for the client but for the internal
32:04teams to position services because if if
32:07you only sell one product, it's
32:09difficult enough for sales to sell a
32:11product. If you sell multiple products
32:12and then multiple services over the top,
32:15it is not that sales is bad at
32:16positioning or selling services. It's
32:18just that there's it's a lot.
32:20>> Yep. It's just like it's a lot to cover.
32:23So I think to your point being able to
32:27like really cut it back, keep some
32:30things in the background, those things
32:31that you have developed, they may come
32:33back, you may roll them out again,
32:35>> but again like unlocking the initial
32:38value as you put it time to burst value
32:40and then architecting the catalog to
32:43then evolve the value over time in a
32:47sequential way. And I think that's the
32:49key bit in a in a sequential way. I
32:51think the whole a lot of companies sell
32:53like a recurring service and it's
32:55buckets of hours and it's the all you
32:56can eat buffet doesn't work. It may work
32:59for a time for certain accounts like
33:01obviously we solved a problem or we but
33:04it's not if it's not sequential if it's
33:07not structured
33:09it's not scalable and it's just like it
33:11needs to be like this very methodical
33:14scientific way that you evolve that
33:16value.
33:17>> Um And and a thing within that is we we
33:21have we have mapped out the customer
33:23journey. Um yeah
33:25>> and and as new technology comes on board
33:29obviously we need to inject that and
33:31find out okay where in the customer
33:33journey does this come into play. Is
33:35this on the top end of the maturity
33:37curve for the customer or is this going
33:39to add real value right out of the traps
33:41for them? and making sure that we're we
33:45we adapt our S. So on the fly based on
33:48that stuff like we brought out an AI
33:51governance tooling um just in the last
33:53few weeks
33:55>> and straight away that went into our
33:58standard on boarding like this is
34:00something that everybody's trying to
34:02solve for themselves. So having this in
34:04for every net new customer and exposing
34:07them to that is really key. So that that
34:10and and again when I talk about the
34:12services that we've pulsious
34:14[clears throat] of the overwhelming the
34:16customer and having them uh kind of lost
34:20as well as as you mentioned earlier on
34:22the sales team having them lost in what
34:24do we position when and how do we do it
34:26and really simplifying that back
34:29>> but having that full catalog in our back
34:31pocket
34:32>> by where where I'd love to get to at a
34:34point and I don't know I've got a lot of
34:36gray hairs I might might get there
34:39I'd love to gamify this for customers
34:41and just show them their customer
34:43journey in almost a snakes and ladders
34:46type of way and just go hey look your
34:48next logical thing is to do this to
34:51switch on this function because this
34:53will bring you these advantages and so
34:55on and so forth.
34:56>> Yeah.
34:57>> Yeah. Okay. um what are the within that
35:00journey what are some of the behaviors
35:03that have informed the shape of the
35:06services like you mentioned new
35:07technology arising so that that customer
35:10behavior would just be like that that
35:12there's new tech I need to figure out
35:14how to implement this or secure this but
35:18have there been other like specific
35:21behaviors or characteristics where
35:24like that have that have informed to
35:27give you an example like with one
35:29company that I know they
35:33their customer base is not techsavvy so
35:36it's they're operating in not for-p
35:38profofit type of organizations so the
35:40the people that they work with are not
35:42techsavvy but the software is very
35:44valuable so they're very keen to have
35:46the vendor um provide a managed service
35:49to administer the software to build
35:53reports to adjust configuration and
35:55things like that are there are there
35:57certain behaviors or characteristics in
36:00your base where it informs the the
36:03structure of the service?
36:05>> Yeah, it it does. And the way I've
36:07looked at it really is is through
36:09segmentation. So that kind of SMB versus
36:12midmarket versus enterprise c customer
36:16persona and just looking at the ICPs of
36:18each of those and going okay well for
36:21SMB first of all you've got the
36:23fundamental thing. uh it's really
36:26expensive to bring in the vendor
36:27professional services team to do
36:29anything. So like how can you still uh
36:33provide a value added service to them uh
36:37knowing that it's going to be cost
36:40prohibitive to do it the traditional way
36:42um and one size doesn't fit all. So we
36:45we've kind of tailored a lot of what we
36:47do as I say like we we're we're moving
36:50into that by the hour micro service type
36:52of space which is valuable to to those
36:55to allow them get along but we're also
36:58all the stuff that we do in the partner
37:00ecosystem is developed around okay let's
37:03let's give them a more affordable price
37:06point because the partner can set their
37:08own price on whatever they do
37:10>> and they know their customers best. So
37:13there's there's that piece. The the the
37:16uh I suppose the SMB market in an ideal
37:19world for for where for the type of
37:21business that I do um at JF should
37:25really be 100% partnerled.
37:28>> Um
37:28>> you need to make sure that you've got
37:30everything robust and fit in and around
37:32that and and then your services like
37:36technical partner technical enablement
37:38[clears throat] is part of my services
37:40organization. So driving that that's
37:42that's how I service that end of the
37:44market. Mid-market then becomes your
37:46very much your standard delivery and
37:49then the top end becomes much more of
37:51that TAM type of model that always
37:53attached resource and keep that. So by
37:56there are the different dynamics that
37:58you can have at play. Uh I've split them
38:00up by segment. I know other PS leaders
38:03who to your point have gone, okay, well,
38:05we need to we need to pull our business
38:08in this direction because this is our
38:10ICP. Um,
38:13it it depends on on how you slice them.
38:16Um, or or or maybe your business takes a
38:19pivot like we we introduced security.
38:22Uh, nobody ever talked about Apple
38:24security. Apple was secure by nature.
38:27Um, they're very good at advertising
38:29that. And it's true, right? They they've
38:31got a very solid they own the entire
38:32ecosystem. But enterprise aren't going
38:35to come along and just trust that, hey,
38:38we don't need to do anything. It's going
38:39to be secure. So, we had to build up a
38:41whole security ICP in and around our
38:44persona and teach that to a world of
38:48CISOs who only understand Android
38:52security and Windows security. They've
38:54never had to think about Apple security.
38:56>> Right. Right. Yeah,
38:57>> but bringing that layer in and that
38:59becomes a different ICP then with a
39:01different motion and a different kind of
39:02skill set within your team and all the
39:04rest of it.
39:06>> So complexity.
39:08>> Yeah. I mean I think like like you say
39:11going by the segment the SMB the
39:13midmarket and the the the enterprise you
39:15you'll see different behaviors there. I
39:18think if you operate across multiple
39:19industries, it's very difficult to scale
39:22like a form of maturity model. If you're
39:24operating in automotive, banking,
39:26retail, because all of those customer
39:29segments talk about their world in
39:31different ways, use different language
39:32and these types of things. I think that
39:35there like one of the things that we
39:38encourage, you know, our customers to
39:40think about and also the market in
39:42general to think about is like there's
39:44like an expertise layer. There's a
39:45product expertise layer with your
39:47technology or your service. And if
39:49you're a technology vendor,
39:52like one of the characteristics or
39:54behaviors of your high your you know
39:57your highest value customers is they are
40:01experts with your product. And generally
40:03that expertise is across not one but
40:06multiple people, centers of excellence,
40:10cohorts. and therefore they use it they
40:13use more of it they use it better etc
40:16and that's and that's what drives the
40:18value now I think to your to your point
40:23around like gamification
40:26like that's easier to do when you
40:28operate through like a product expertise
40:31layer than it is necessarily through a
40:32customer maturity model layer and I
40:36think this the concept of microervices
40:38is a really important one so what I
40:40think about when I think about
40:41microservices is they it could be a TAM,
40:45it could be a PS engineer, it could be
40:48sold on a monthly basis, it could be
40:50sold quarterly, it could be sold
40:51annually. But those microervices are
40:55proven to unlock different value for the
40:58customer.
40:59>> Absolutely.
41:00>> Importantly, that drives more product
41:03adoption and more product expansion and
41:05they buy more products from you. And so
41:08when you map that customer journey and
41:11you map this why I ask about the
41:12behaviors, if you can work out within
41:15that overall journey what the expertise
41:18steps are to go from like novice to
41:20intermediate to expert and then you
41:23layer over like what are the services
41:25that we need to do that. What you should
41:27then be able to do is correlate this
41:30customer is concerned this micro service
41:33which means that after x period of time
41:36if we go back to them to talk to this
41:37about this product they should all
41:40things being equal be interested in it
41:42right now then it's someone else's job
41:44an account manager sales or whomever to
41:46sell and close that deal but the thing
41:48about these journeys is is if you
41:50overlay the journey with the expertise
41:52then with the services consumption on
41:54top of it like ideally over like a
41:56threeyear time horizon, you can begin to
41:58map out. This is like the services
42:00choreography
42:02that will then trigger like and you can
42:04see literally the line over a multi-year
42:06period. I've looked at this with
42:07customers where it's like over a
42:09multi-year period, this is what they're
42:10consuming in services and this is what
42:12their ARR is doing. You're going why is
42:14their AR growing like that? They're
42:15buying more products. Um so yeah, I love
42:18I love the concept of microservices. Um
42:21>> yeah,
42:21>> when when you um so like partners, I'm
42:26going to skip on to sort of talking a
42:27little bit more about this this this
42:29partner and channel alignment. I'm
42:31curious like you've talked about already
42:34about some of the first principles. So I
42:36don't think we need to go too much over
42:37that. Like how do you create that
42:40balance between the internal sales team
42:45kind of the partner
42:47organiz partner motion and your internal
42:51org. Is this very as you said is this
42:53related to that segmentation that you
42:55talked about earlier and being very
42:57clear about what plugs in where? I'm
42:58just curious to know how do you how do
43:01you create harmony because a lot of
43:02people it's like partner ecosystems is
43:04way more trouble than it's worth. It's
43:06always on fire. But you seem quite well
43:09very very confident with with what you
43:11guys are doing. [laughter]
43:13>> I [clears throat] uh I I I seem
43:15confident about it and and and in an
43:18ideal world it it it would I am the
43:21conductor of the London Philarmonic and
43:25they are all beautifully in tune.
43:26>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, in in reality, it's
43:29more it's more like giving a bunch of
43:32six-year-olds um some some stuff out of
43:35the cupboard that hasn't been killed in
43:37years. Uh so the the the we're lucky.
43:41We're really lucky. Like I uh I think
43:44we've got we've got all the building
43:46blocks in it and we're and we've got
43:48good alignment on it, but it's
43:50constantly a job tuning it. like if if I
43:54look at it our um we've we we provide
44:00certification programs and that
44:02certification is the proof of competency
44:05essentially for whatever you do and I
44:07think that's absolutely fundamental
44:09because you can go and say that you know
44:13what we're a channel first organization
44:15which JF is we genu we genuinely want
44:19the channel driving and growing with us
44:22and taking care of the customers. Um,
44:25but you're always on boarding the next
44:28new channel partner. Like you're you're
44:31to today you could be dealing with um uh
44:36some somebody who's got their head
44:38screwed on and knows everything about J
44:41back to front and you go, "We're in safe
44:44hands here." But your your your channel
44:48account manager, it hops in the car the
44:50next day and goes to visit somebody for
44:53the first time and is looking to sign
44:55them up as a partner and the first job
44:57they bring in, they're not going to have
44:59any technical competency in around your
45:02product. So I've always been of the
45:04philosophy of allow us to take care of
45:08your customer at the start of your
45:10journey. Ride along with us so that you
45:13get that experience that that transfer
45:15of knowledge from engineer to engineer
45:18while you travel or certification
45:20pathway. And uh now we back in the day
45:24it used to be instructorled training in
45:27classroom. The same training that we had
45:30for end customers who were the admins
45:32using the tool day-to-day was the same
45:34training we gave to our partners. Um
45:37we've developed a whole partner training
45:39ecosystem that's specifically tuned to
45:42the persona within the partner. So the
45:44pre-sales engineer at the partner is
45:46trained the same way as our sees are
45:48trained. The the the onboarding team are
45:51trained the same way as our onboarders
45:53are. The PS teams trained the same way.
45:56So we we've kind of identified those
45:58personas and we've tuned it because they
46:00are not the admins. They are not the
46:02people whose job it is to spend 40 hours
46:04a week with the tool. Uh they've got
46:06different objectives with our product.
46:09Um so making sure that you've got that
46:12is really really important and then
46:14helping your team internally understand
46:16that that first of all from a services
46:18perspective I I keep going back to my
46:21team and going if we're not adding value
46:23we don't want to be there. So don't
46:25compete against our elite partners. Like
46:28the ones who are good at it, get out of
46:30their way and let them get on with it
46:32because they're helping us. They're an
46:34extension of our team and think of the
46:36bigger picture rather than what's
46:38directly in front of you. Um for the
46:42other end of the scale, it's trying to
46:43teach the sales team that hey, just
46:46because we're partner first doesn't mean
46:48that we're partner only. Uh we do have a
46:51professional services team that are the
46:53best in the industry. like there's no
46:55point in having them at the vendor level
46:57if somebody else can do it better than
46:59the vendor can. It means you're you're
47:01missing out on something. Um so having
47:04that there to help the um the the the
47:08new partner on their journey and h and
47:10helping the sales team that's that's
47:12probably the the continuous enablement
47:15effort is just making sure that the
47:16sales team are aware of is this partner
47:19certified? are are they at that level of
47:22competency where it's safe to let go and
47:25let them run with it? Because where it
47:27is, we see a lot less churn. We see
47:30product growth. We see uh cross-ell,
47:32upsell, and all the rest of it. Where
47:34it's not, we see churn. And uh and
47:37that's bad for all of us.
47:38>> Yeah. Well, listen. I mean, that's I
47:42mean, throughout very very
47:46you got it's a very it's a very intu
47:49intuitive way to think about your
47:52strategy because it's combining elements
47:54of it's very people first, but I think
47:57what you've kind of got your own head
47:59around is like that that that that
48:02you're combining this kind of internal
48:03ecosystem with that of the customers and
48:06and that of partners, which is which is
48:09hard to do. Like the thing that you've
48:10just talked about is effectively how you
48:14foster the right mindset to think about
48:16your partner ecosystem as a partnership
48:18between you and the partner. Absolutely.
48:20as much as it is with just there's these
48:24third parties that are like you know
48:25working with our mutual customer and and
48:28I think that's quite different to just
48:31like yeah this is an extension of my
48:33team or this is third party store staff
48:37augmentation or it's you know third
48:39parties delivering to my customers.
48:42So I really appreciate you taking the
48:44time to prepare. I'm just going to kind
48:45of summarize some of the things that
48:46you've gone through which I think is
48:47really important. I think one is kind of
48:49the commercial mindset piece is not
48:51always born but it can be made like I
48:54use the term embrace you were like it's
48:57a it can be a little bit forced on you I
48:59think most people in services leadership
49:01positions majority of the time have
49:03often come up through the the the ranks
49:05or come up through delivery in some some
49:08regard most of the time not all the time
49:10and it's you know there's a point in
49:11time where you realize oh I'm in
49:13sales right and and and it's and it's
49:17kind of getting getting to grips with
49:19that is is like something that can be
49:20learned as much as made. Um I talked a
49:23little bit just then about like
49:24fostering that partnership mindset with
49:26your with your third parties. Um I think
49:30from a metric standpoint, you know,
49:34you're kind of combining the velocity
49:36and the quality piece together, which is
49:38really important. And I think realizing
49:40that when you get those two things right
49:42together,
49:44typically if you've got a clear view of
49:46the size of your your team that's
49:47appropriate to your business, then the
49:49gross margin tends to take care of
49:50itself. Um to be honest with you, one
49:54point on that that I think is really
49:55important is if you can rightsize your
49:58business, it's not always about cutting
50:00heads.
50:01>> I think services people now more than
50:05ever are hugely valuable in the customer
50:08success team. I see more and more people
50:10moving into from PS into more technical
50:15customer engagement, right? Because to
50:17be blunt, these days customers don't
50:19want the QBR with 600 slides and the,
50:23you know, the shaking hands and kissing
50:24babies vibe. I want to talk to someone
50:26who's got domain expertise, product
50:28knowledge, and can solve my problem, not
50:29someone who goes, "Oh, I've got to go
50:31and get some other help." Right? So
50:33yeah, we we've seen people move into the
50:35SE or um so that they can provide that
50:37upfront pre-sales technical knowledge.
50:40We've seen them move into product
50:41management. Um another key one if if if
50:45you've got a development team who don't
50:47understand what the customer is actually
50:49facing into at the end of the day,
50:51>> you can run yourself into trouble there.
50:53So we've we've seen people transmit out
50:55across our organization and again I'm
50:58I'm a great believer in growing people's
51:00careers my whether whether that's uh
51:04everybody's going to leave me at some
51:05stage hopefully not my wife and kids but
51:08uh everybody else uh so u so knowing
51:12that you go in with your eyes open you
51:14go what's the best I can do for this
51:16person and then how can I feed them out
51:18and to grow their career hopefully
51:20within JF hopefully in a place where
51:22they can continue to add value.
51:24>> Oh, 100%. Like I always talk about my
51:26business like you know the PE people
51:28when they do leave they'll leave a more
51:30valuable asset than when they started.
51:33>> Absolutely.
51:33>> So I think you know there are some
51:36services leaders out there that are a
51:37little bit too they treat the team like
51:39a commodity in numbers and it doesn't
51:41usually work over a period of time. No
51:43awesome stuff. Thank you sir. Really
51:45appreciate it. Um
51:46>> likewise. It's been very pleasurable.
51:48>> Yeah. Enjoy the rest of your day and um
51:50I'll talk to you soon.
51:52>> Super. See you soon.
51:53>> Yes. Bye.

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