Post Office DID NOT Give Subpostmaster Alan Bates Contract — Transcript

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1. 0:00so we're jumping back into Alan bates's
2. 0:01testimony to the post office rizon it
3. 0:03inquiry and he details um what sounds
4. 0:06like quite a nice lovely post office
5. 0:08that him and his wife had big plans for
6. 0:11um and there's some Mysteries relating
7. 0:14to the sub postmasters contract where he
8. 0:16didn't receive the sub postmaster's
9. 0:18contract and the post office tried to
10. 0:21say well that he tried to disagree with
11. 0:23that statement and when they took the
12. 0:25litigation to court in
13. 0:282019 however the judge in that case Mr
14. 0:31Justice Fraser did actually decide that
15. 0:34as a credible witness what he was saying
16. 0:36in regards to not receiving it was true
17. 0:39let's jump into the inquiry talking of
18. 0:41which um you ran a post office in North
19. 0:44Wales um I did what was the name of the
20. 0:46post office and in which town was it
21. 0:49it's craigon post office in sandid now
22. 0:51just say that
23. 0:53again craigon post office in
24. 0:56Fido yeah I'm glad I don't have to say
25. 0:59that don't ask me to beat that and what
26. 1:01kind of post office like me teasing him
27. 1:03about I see okay what kind of post
28. 1:06office was it it was well it it was a
29. 1:09three position counter in there it was
30. 1:13uh when we first um bought the property
31. 1:15it was very much at the back of the the
32. 1:17property in there and it was a bit rund
33. 1:19down and it also had another side um a
34. 1:23retail side to the business which was a
35. 1:26whole variety of things crafts knitting
36. 1:29uh um habitatery a whole range of things
37. 1:33so for the first year or two we just ran
38. 1:37the business as it was and slowly
39. 1:40developed it from there putting on a big
40. 1:43extension up updating the um updating a
41. 1:47lot of the stock but more importantly we
42. 1:50actually saw it as a a big potential to
43. 1:53to grow the Post Office business we
44. 1:55brought it right to the front of the
45. 1:57building and with a uh a large queuing
46. 2:01area for for people unfortunately it
47. 2:03seems what post offices need and um uh
48. 2:08so we we invested quite heavily in
49. 2:11developing the post office and that was
50. 2:12at the time Horizon came in and imagine
51. 2:15doing that doing your best to make a
52. 2:17business work building up a small
53. 2:19business to have security for yourself
54. 2:21and your own family to have an income to
55. 2:24provide a service to the community and
56. 2:26to have a massive organization come and
57. 2:29decide to crush it for a completely
58. 2:33invalid reason thank you and I think you
59. 2:35and your wife suzan were 44 years old
60. 2:38when you took it over is that right
61. 2:40about that yes would have been you tell
62. 2:42us in your witness statements that
63. 2:44there's no need to turn it up it's
64. 2:45paragraphs 9 to13 in summary terms um
65. 2:50about your decision to become a sub
66. 2:51postmaster your decision to pick this
67. 2:54post office uh your hopes and
68. 2:57aspirations and the process by which you
69. 2:59apply
70. 3:00and by which your application was
71. 3:03approved I just want to look at an
72. 3:05account you've given in the past in more
73. 3:07detail about that if we may um can we
74. 3:10look please on the screen at poll
75. 3:12302
76. 3:144194 this is a witness statement you
77. 3:16made in the course of the um group
78. 3:19litigation proceedings in the high court
79. 3:21um we'll deal more about that later
80. 3:24today is that right yes it is yes and we
81. 3:27can see the date on it in the top right
82. 3:30um 9th of August
83. 3:322018 Ron Inno hopefully I did that quite
84. 3:36well and so this witness statement was
85. 3:39made for the purposes of what came to be
86. 3:42known as the common issues trial is that
87. 3:44right that's correct and so the process
88. 3:47by which you applied to become a sub
89. 3:49postmaster the documents that were or in
90. 3:52fact were not given to you were
91. 3:56important issues and addressed in this
92. 3:58witness statement in very great detail
93. 4:01is that right that is right yeah can we
94. 4:03look please at uh page three and pick up
95. 4:07at paragraph 11 please you say a key
96. 4:09attraction to working with post office
97. 4:12was that it would provide secure
98. 4:14employment based upon the fact it
99. 4:16provides a community service and has an
100. 4:19established brand in the community from
101. 4:22among the various small business options
102. 4:24available a post office branch would in
103. 4:26my mind be a safe option I was also
104. 4:29encouraged by the fact I could run a
105. 4:30secondary business such as a retail shop
106. 4:33alongside the post office branch that
107. 4:36sets out in summary your reasons for
108. 4:38picking post office as a um a future
109. 4:42Enterprise with your wife is that right
110. 4:45that's correct so big plans there you
111. 4:48know seems like they knew what they
112. 4:50wanted to do set up something to have
113. 4:53some security for themselves and what
114. 4:55was it you know turned out not to be the
115. 4:58case because of a horrendous mistake
116. 5:01relating to a computer system it's
117. 5:03absolutely shocking compounded then by
118. 5:05the human failure which I think is even
119. 5:08worse than the fact that Horizon seemed
120. 5:11to be completely unfit for purpose I did
121. 5:14just notice there in paragraph 10 it
122. 5:16says August 1996 I left Eureka I'm
123. 5:18pretty sure that was a museum that I
124. 5:20remember going to that was pretty cool
125. 5:22might have been around that time as well
126. 5:24now um paragraph 12 on this page right
127. 5:28through to um paragraph 23 on page five
128. 5:34addresses the initial inquiries you made
129. 5:37with the existing or the outgoing sub
130. 5:40postmaster Peter Savage I think his name
131. 5:42was that's correct um and the Planned
132. 5:45visits that you made and indeed some
133. 5:47unannounced visits that you made to the
134. 5:50post office in question as part of your
135. 5:53due diligence is that right that's
136. 5:55correct can we just look at paragraph 21
137. 5:58on page five please so it wasn't
138. 6:00something that they just jumped into a
139. 6:02lot of research I mean it probably won't
140. 6:04surprise us that he was meticulous with
141. 6:07this cuz he's as he's shown in having to
142. 6:09battle the post office every way during
143. 6:11the B during the post office Scandal you
144. 6:14know you have to be meticulous dedicated
145. 6:16and as Alan Bates puts it stubborn you
146. 6:18say that you do remember that during one
147. 6:20of my visits um to the branch Mr Savage
148. 6:24explained that he had a practice of
149. 6:25keeping unders and overs in a tin in the
150. 6:29safe
151. 6:30as a system to deal with any odd shorts
152. 6:33or overs I remember this CU I thought it
153. 6:35to be rather casual and unusual for a
154. 6:37business nevertheless I was not
155. 6:39particularly concerned and considered it
156. 6:41to be a matter for Mr Savage and his
157. 6:42staff and I didn't understand it to
158. 6:45involve large figures or to be um
159. 6:48problematic is that and I can see where
160. 6:50he's coming from there because you know
161. 6:52as anybody who runs a business will tell
162. 6:55you it's important to know literally
163. 6:56where every penny is at every point to
164. 6:59be account far right that is right and
165. 7:02it was very odd and very strange I
166. 7:04thought for a for a cash-based um system
167. 7:08uh where you didn't actually record
168. 7:10anywhere the amounts um and you didn't
169. 7:14you didn't provide post office with
170. 7:16returns of the position each week in
171. 7:18there as well but you know that seemed
172. 7:19to be the way it operated but these were
173. 7:22small sums of money is that they were
174. 7:23small sums of money out uh on um from
175. 7:27paragraph 24 if we scroll down please um
176. 7:30right through to paragraph 33 at the
177. 7:32bottom of page seven you deal with the
178. 7:35agreement to purchase the post office
179. 7:38yes yes and then if we go forward to
180. 7:40page eight please um from paragraph 34
181. 7:43on this
182. 7:45page right through to paragraph 86 on
183. 7:49page 19 you deal with the following
184. 7:52issues I'm just going to summarize them
185. 7:54without reading the text firstly the
186. 7:57application to the post office to be a
187. 8:00postmaster secondly the interview at the
188. 8:02regional office in Banger that you and
189. 8:05your um wife
190. 8:07attended thirdly um the confirmation
191. 8:11that your application had been
192. 8:14successful and the material that you
193. 8:16were then given yes and if we just go
194. 8:19forward to page 15 please and look at
195. 8:21paragraph 62 you say at no stage during
196. 8:25the process of my application
197. 8:27appointment and branch opening
198. 8:30was I ever um sent a copy of the sub
199. 8:32postmaster contract I first obtained a
200. 8:35copy of the sub postmaster contract much
201. 8:37later in circumstances I explained below
202. 8:41at no point during my appointment
203. 8:42process was it mentioned or explained to
204. 8:44me that the sub postmaster contract
205. 8:46which was a lengthy document of 114
206. 8:49Pages govern the terms of my um
207. 8:52appointment now we'll hear later that is
208. 8:55this right that the post office robustly
209. 8:58challenged you on on that issue
210. 9:00alongside other issues at the trial and
211. 9:03then the trial judge then Mr Justice
212. 9:05Fraser held that you were an honest
213. 9:08witness that you were telling the truth
214. 9:10and that like many other sub postmasters
215. 9:12you did not receive a copy of this
216. 9:15document it's correct and this is
217. 9:18probably surprisingly more common than
218. 9:20you'd think these days there's many
219. 9:22people private and public sector Who
220. 9:25start jobs and aren't given a written
221. 9:27contract uh I think it's supposed to be
222. 9:30provided I may be wrong on this but
223. 9:32within so many weeks I want to say 12
224. 9:34weeks of appointment to a post but in
225. 9:36many cases it's not and I'm sure people
226. 9:38will let us know their experience in the
227. 9:40comments below you address later in this
228. 9:42section of your witness statement your
229. 9:43initial classroom uh training and then
230. 9:46lastly the transfer of the branch to you
231. 9:50and the opening of it correct correct
232. 9:53yes