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Post 911 World - Coleen Rowley and Peter Dale Scott — Transcript

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0:07[Music]
0:14welcome back to the real news network
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1:002011 we need producers that specialize
1:02in certain areas and one of the areas we
1:04want to specialize is the
1:06military-industrial complex we'd like to
1:07have a producer does nothing but cover
1:10stories about the sort of underpinnings
1:12of US foreign policy uh and the real
1:15issues that are that don't get discussed
1:17very much in terms of what's driving
1:19much of global politics uh and even in
1:22as I in the current Wikileaks I don't
1:24there's a layer of Truth one could say
1:27that is not really revealed in these
1:28Wikileaks because they're not top secret
1:30as we've heard described by some of our
1:31guests now joining us to talk about
1:34Wikileaks and the world since 9/11 are
1:38two people that have been associated
1:40with this topic first joining us from uh
1:44Peter you're you're in Berkeley
1:46California right that's correct joining
1:48us from Berkeley California is Peter
1:50Dale Scott he's the author of the book
1:52and I'm going to hold it up here control
1:54room and the book is American war
1:57machine deep Politics the CIA global
2:00drug connection and the road to
2:01Afghanistan the CIA Global Drug
2:04connection let me get the uh inflection
2:06right and the road to
2:08Afghanistan and also joining us now from
2:10Minneapolis is Colleen Raleigh Colleen
2:12was an FBI agent who uncovered certain
2:15things fleeing that had to do she
2:17thought with a possible terrorist attack
2:20if I if I remember the story correctly
2:21Colleen it was someone who was trying to
2:23get flying lessons to to fly but not
2:26necessarily to land but you can correct
2:27me on that and Colleen tried to get this
2:31information looked into and was more or
2:33less blocked by uh headquarters of FBI
2:36but Colleen thanks very much for joining
2:38us thank you uh Colleen very very
2:41quickly just remind us of your of the
2:43story where that you were involved with
2:45around the 911 events well I'll just
2:48correct you slightly it was the agents
2:50in the office that had received a call
2:53from a flight school um and they
2:55basically said we've got the most
2:57suspicious student we've ever had here
2:59um he's flopping down cash thousands of
3:02dollars and says he wants to learn to
3:04fly a jumbo jet as an ego boost that was
3:07just one of several things if you
3:09remember a lot of people don't remember
3:11the summer of of uh 2001 but there were
3:15so many Clues and so much information
3:18coming in that directors uh CIA director
3:21George tennet and Richard Clark were
3:23said to have their hair on fire um I
3:26wrote a memo 8 and 1 half months after
3:29911 because of the coverup that had
3:31ensued afterwards essentially uh you had
3:34everybody denying that that they knew
3:36that they had this information you know
3:38no one knew that the president had been
3:40briefed in early August no one knew that
3:43the musawi case had been briefed to the
3:45director of Central Intelligence in mid
3:48August um I think August 23rd or 24th
3:51well before 911 so all of you know uh
3:55I'll talk more about this but the the uh
3:58911 uh Commission concluded after two
4:01and a half years that it was due to a
4:03failure to share intelligence and
4:05information that 911 attacks actually
4:08occurred which to some extent led to
4:11this creation of this seet which gave a
4:14two two and a half million people mostly
4:18in the military but not only also in the
4:20Diplomatic area access to information
4:23from Secret down to confidential not
4:25secret secret and this seet apparently
4:28was the source of which Wikileaks but
4:30but before we get into the Wikileaks
4:32story Peter uh let me ask you a question
4:34first of all about 911 uh it's probably
4:38of all the emails we've got over the
4:40last four or five years at the real news
4:42uh maybe the email we get the most is
4:45how come nobody talks about 9/11 the
4:47issue of the coverup the need for an
4:48independent
4:50investigation uh what H really happened
4:52in terms of the buildings and uh what's
4:55your view in terms of the the to start
4:59with the idea how taboo it is even to
5:01talk about
5:03it well I think that what Colleen has
5:06just been telling us about is part of a
5:08bigger picture that indicates very
5:11strongly to me I that the CIA was using
5:15elements of Al Qaeda uh for their own
5:18operations and that's why for example
5:21when two of the uh alleged hijackers
5:25came into the United States at the
5:27beginning of I think it was 20
5:30uh this information was shared in the
5:32white house it was considered that
5:34important it was not shared with the
5:36regular FBI just with the head of the
5:39FBI uh the fact that you're talking
5:42about the fact that two people had
5:43entered the
5:44country entered the two countries should
5:46have gone on the watch list didn't go on
5:48the watch list until much much later and
5:52uh I'd like even perhaps more important
5:54I have a whole chapter in my other book
5:56The Road to 911 which I think um I will
6:00also show here uh there's a whole
6:03chapter about Ali Muhammad who trained
6:07the people who blew up the World Trade
6:09Center in
6:1093 and they uh they went to Great
6:13Lengths to keep his name out of the
6:15trial because he was training people who
6:18went to Bosnia there were all kinds of
6:20things that the CIA was doing and uh
6:25there's no doubt that he was a double
6:26agent for America because they see he
6:29was picked up in Canada uh they had very
6:33good reasons to arrest him in Vancouver
6:35airport and he gave the RCMP a phone
6:38number said phone this number and you'll
6:40let me go and they phoned the number and
6:43it was the San Francisco office of the
6:45FBI and they did let him go with
6:48devastating consequences because he then
6:50flew to Kenya and surveilled the
6:54American
6:57Embassy reported the results to
7:00personally to Osama Bin Laden that's how
7:02high up he was inside al- Qaeda and we
7:05then what's what's your source for this
7:08of the embassy in
7:111998 so that's it's that sort of thing
7:13was going on which I think explains why
7:17the uh colen was not able to you were
7:20trying to get inside the computer of
7:22musawi is that right and you were denied
7:25the right to do that uh there was an FBI
7:28agent who was a a pilot and an
7:31intelligence officer and he spotted the
7:34suspicious nature you know that this
7:36fact I got called one day after that uh
7:40call had come into our office that night
7:42because the suspicious agents had taken
7:45musi already into custody and actually
7:47that agent also pinpointed the exact two
7:50statutes that were later used to charge
7:52him so I mean the agents in Minnesota
7:55were very much on this they ended up
7:58exchanging 60 to 70 emails and telephone
8:01calls arguing with FBI headquarters and
8:05actually sometime in late August our
8:07supervisor on the phone said this is a
8:10guy who could fly into the World Trade
8:12Center he was That explicit um so when
8:16afterwards you know when Ki rice held up
8:18a a plane and said well no one would
8:20have known that planes would fly into
8:23buildings and that actually kind of you
8:25know was the theme of this long uh term
8:27cover up I think you're absolutely right
8:30that the pre- 911
8:33intelligence and some of the
8:35embarrassing things uh like blowback you
8:37know it's a form of blowback when things
8:39don't go correctly when you're uh in the
8:42intelligence world and it's amazing how
8:44much of that just simply because it's
8:46embarrassing this will read us right
8:48into Wikileaks that government officials
8:51uh will not share even when National
8:53Security is on the line it's it's it's
8:56actually a pretty um shocking thing to
8:58to not hear people come clean and admit
9:02uh honest failures or honest uh you know
9:06lapses um it's I was actually shocked
9:08afterwards that there was this kind of a
9:11defensiveness well what was your
9:12reaction then when Wikileaks broke and
9:14and what do you think is the
9:15significance of
9:17it well you know initially the first um
9:20leaks are at least about the United
9:22States I wasn't following it real
9:24closely when Wikileaks was uh uh leaking
9:27about Kenya uh and murders in Kenya and
9:31frauds in Iceland but I began to follow
9:33it closely with that collateral murder
9:36video and as I saw that was in this kind
9:38of like the spring and then of course
9:40the arrest of Bradley Manning occurred
9:42and I think the the Afghan war documents
9:4676,000 had been released and that's when
9:49it it occurred to me that everybody that
9:52was um really kind of weighing in on
9:54this had the wrong idea because they
9:56were all going under the premise that
9:59extra secrecy protects us and I I
10:02started asking people don't you remember
10:05what all of the five inquiries had said
10:08about 9/11 that it was due to a failure
10:11to share information and it wasn't only
10:13due to a failure to share information
10:15inside the FBI in that one musawi case
10:18that was just one of many uh failures uh
10:21it was also as uh Mr Scott just
10:23mentioned it was that failure between
10:25the CIA to tell the FBI when the two
10:28hijackers had come into California so it
10:30was inter agency and then the 911
10:34Commission uh you know I know there's a
10:35lot of um you know people criticized
10:37that it didn't go far enough Etc but at
10:39least the 911 Commission in my opinion
10:43correctly concluded that it was also due
10:46to a failure to share information with
10:49the public and the media and that's the
10:52part that of course after Wikileaks
10:53began to be criticized that no one
10:56remembered that it's actually the public
10:58and the media that needs to know a lot
11:01of the this threat information because
11:03they're they're the ones on the front
11:05line in the Wikileaks leaks that we've
11:09seen the the kind of information that
11:12that has been released in both of the
11:13last two made the current release and
11:15the one on Afghanistan and Iraq it
11:18wasn't startling in terms of makes us
11:21think again about the objectives of US
11:23foreign policy now some of the experts
11:25we've talked to say that the that kind
11:27of discourse that would be revealing
11:29happens at the top secret level which
11:31wasn't revealed but when you talk about
11:34something like continuity of government
11:36and I'll ask you actually we have a
11:37caller on the line who I think wants to
11:39ask a question about that uh caller are
11:41you
11:43there Jeffrey from Wilmington go ahead
11:47yes yeah go ahead yeah I'm here um I was
11:51wondering but the climate after 911 give
11:54the government the right to continue
11:57activities like the Patriot Act and
11:59continuity of government and what can a
12:02citizen do to end these did you hear
12:05that Peter not very clear okay I'll
12:07repeat it what in terms of the Patriot
12:09Act and in terms of the Patriot Act and
12:11continuity of government what can a
12:14citizen do uh about it so let me let me
12:17put my question together with Jeffrey
12:19from Wilmington um Wikileaks has so far
12:23has not revealed something at that kind
12:26of level of continuity of government
12:27which has been just sort of mentioned in
12:29the Press well first of all tell us what
12:32continuity of government is and then you
12:34can talk a little bit about what you
12:35think people can do about
12:37it but you there a lot of things here
12:41I'd like just to pick up on whether
12:44Wikileaks has released anything
12:46Sensational or not we shouldn't forget
12:49the the the murder video I mean that's
12:52the sort of thing which I think the
12:54public should see I mean okay by murder
12:57video you're talking about the footage
12:58of the helic op shooting people in the
13:00streets of in Baghdad and and we hear
13:03the voices of the people who are doing
13:05the shooting and seem to be getting a
13:07thrill out of it uh that absolutely was
13:11vital to be revealed we we're getting
13:13stuff in this last batch I think some of
13:15the really important things have been
13:17about the degree of corruption in
13:20Afghanistan now I have a chapter in my
13:23book about how in Afghanistan we're
13:26we're trying to do the same hopeless
13:28thing we tried in first of all in LA in
13:321959 and then uh in Vietnam shortly
13:36after uh to build a nation and that's
13:40that's an absurd metaphor but it's the
13:42government's metaphor nation building is
13:44what they think they're doing doing it
13:46with a totally corrupt government and uh
13:50what I said in my book was of course
13:52before all these leaks from Wikileaks
13:54about the corruption but the the public
13:58has a right to know just how corrupt it
14:00is and just and draw the conclusion how
14:04futile it is to think that we can just
14:07be in there for a year or two or three
14:10years and then hand it over to a system
14:12when the system is falling apart and is
14:16um being held together with Band-Aids
14:18and and bits of Scotch tape okay Peter
14:21talk about can do I mean I want to come
14:24back to the caller um I think the uh
14:29insist on the right to know I mean the
14:31the government assumption is that we'll
14:33have a better foreign policy if the
14:35public are left out there was maybe some
14:37excuse for that in the 19th century I
14:40there and there will always be a case
14:42for some amount of secrecy but you know
14:46I'm a former Diplomat myself and I've
14:49wrote a long poem in which I make fun of
14:51myself because I used to write top
14:52secret cables and I say in my poem not
14:55one of them was worth being written down
14:57at all let alone being label top secret
15:00the public is is probably at this point
15:03better informed or some of the public
15:06are far better informed than some of the
15:09people who are making the policy and
15:11okay Peter tell us what continuity of
15:13government is oh all right the uh there
15:17have always been there's always been a
15:19need for emergency planning to do deal
15:22with the risk that the government would
15:24be decapitated by a nuclear attack this
15:27was something they worried about
15:29legitimately in the 1950s
15:32supposing uh not only the president is
15:34killed but also the vice president and
15:37also the speaker in the house and
15:39everyone who's supposed to succeed we
15:42have to have some planning for that this
15:45became known after a while as continuity
15:47of government planning or Cog planning
15:50and then in the in the 80s under Reagan
15:54and particularly George HW Bush and
15:57finally Oliver North who was a big
15:59figure in this they change they kept the
16:02emergency part of it but they steered it
16:06to a new Target which was not now an
16:09atomic attack from outside but disent in
16:12the streets who might inhibit the
16:15ability of the government to wage
16:17another Vietnam War and so Oliver North
16:20started planning how to round up large
16:23numbers of anti-war protesters and that
16:25sort of thing and what's really
16:27interesting about this that all through
16:29the 80s and all through the '90s two of
16:33the people who were involved in this
16:35secret planning were Dick Cheney and
16:38Donald Rumsfeld even though in the 80s
16:41only one of them was in the government
16:43as a congressman that was chainy and by
16:45the late
16:4690s uh neither of them were in the
16:49government they went on planning for the
16:52suspension of the Constitution as it was
16:54described and then lo and behold after
16:56911
16:59actually before even Flight 93 had hit
17:02the ground uh Cheney implemented Cog
17:06planning so the plans that they had
17:08worked on for 20 years they were able to
17:11implement because of
17:13911 and uh they the the planning
17:16continues and Bush introduced some new
17:19Cog elements in
17:222007 continuity of
17:24government we we we don't know what
17:27these new elements are and a congressman
17:30asked who was on the homeland security
17:32committee Congressman defasio asked to
17:35see these things and he's told he
17:37couldn't do it because he didn't have a
17:39high enough CL security clearance right
17:42now just for for people that want to
17:44really dig into this I did an interview
17:45with Peter about this on the Real News
17:48Network and you can kind of look up
17:49probably the phrase continuity of
17:51government and we actually have the
17:53speech that uh the congressman you're
17:55talking about we have his speech in
17:57Congress in in in our story colen when
18:00this was happening after 911 it's also
18:02in my book I have well you plug your
18:05book I'll plug our
18:06website uh Colleen when when this
18:08happens after n in the days after 911
18:11you're still in the FBI are you aware at
18:13all of this continuity of government
18:15plans is it how far does this
18:18reach the continuity of government I was
18:21not quite aware of I think I saw in news
18:23articles yeah there was there was a
18:25couple of articles that broke apparently
18:27they even had both people in government
18:29and even private citizens invite were
18:31asked to come and do regular shifts
18:33underground in a secure facility for
18:36several months after 911 this creating a
18:38creation of a literally a new Shadow
18:40government that would that that might
18:42take power I suppose if there was I
18:44don't know another airplane came and hit
18:46the White House or something I think
18:47they were producing the Patriot Act and
18:50they were producing first of all the
18:52Homeland Security office which
18:54eventually became the department which
18:56is now the third largest Department in
18:58the government So Co when you talk about
19:00sharing of information coling I mean
19:03should all of this be public because uh
19:05you know people that are kind of really
19:06into this stuff have followed it on the
19:08internet you see the odd news report
19:11broke around at the at the time about
19:13this continuity of government and then
19:14disappeared it's there's very few pieces
19:16in the Press about it uh how far do you
19:18go in terms of
19:20transparency well there's some necessary
19:23secrecy uh it's better if it's limited
19:26in time so for instance the best example
19:28is uh an FBI investigation of the mafia
19:32has to be secret while the investigation
19:35is going on that could take you know a
19:37year it could even be two years or
19:38longer but once the investigation is
19:41over uh the affidavit you know have to
19:44be handed to a defense attorney and he's
19:45allowed to check to see if every eye is
19:47dotted and te is crossed in the
19:50intelligence world you have something
19:52far different it's almost Perpetual
19:54secrecy or or at least many of the
19:56people that are you know ing orders and
19:59doing things think that it will never be
20:01known and that actually really opens the
20:04door uh not only to some wrongdoing you
20:06know deliberate wrongdoing like Oliver
20:08North but it also opens the door to just
20:11uh be sloppy and and more Reckless
20:14because no one you don't believe that
20:15anyone will ever the public will never
20:17be reviewing your work there's still uh
20:19items classified from 40 years ago so I
20:23think that what we can do and I think
20:25most Security Experts actually um uh uh
20:29uh advise that we limit secrecy to the
20:32very lowest amount necessary for things
20:35like ongoing investigations for a a
20:38strategic military operation or a
20:41landing on D-Day things like that but
20:44what happened after 9911 uh you know you
20:47mentioned that there were these millions
20:49I think it's over two million documents
20:51on ceret and you're absolutely right
20:53that certainly was um a consequence of
20:57trying to follow the 9911 commission's
20:59uh finding that it was a failure to
21:01share information I'm I'm certain that
21:03that sharing with uh low-level people
21:06like privates was a was that result but
21:09they did that wasn't uniform and there
21:11also was a um a far greater a generation
21:15of secret and top secret documents and
21:18so you have everything being stamped
21:20secret and top secret and then you also
21:22have this idea in perpetuity all of your
21:25foreign intelligence surveillance act uh
21:28surveillances for instance unlike
21:30criminal ones are considered to be
21:33perpetually secret so uh secrecy wasn't
21:36at all rained in after 911 no in terms
21:40of 911 I said we it's one of the things
21:42we've been emailed most about uh are you
21:45satisfied that we know what caused 911
21:49what took place and who's responsible
21:52and and a lot of the emails we get have
21:54said you know whether anyone believes
21:56anything you know happened the buildings
21:58came down you know other than just
22:00airplanes hitting them or not uh you
22:03know there's certainly building I think
22:05it's seven is the one that came down
22:07just by burning and even in the report
22:09the uh I think it's the N National
22:10Association of science report even they
22:12say they've never seen something like
22:14that happen before do you think there
22:17needs to be an independent investigation
22:18some people suggest it's just a
22:20distraction in terms of the economic
22:22crisis in terms of what's going on in
22:24Afghanistan and Iraq where do you come
22:26down on
22:27that if if you're asking me I stay out
22:30of the engineering and Architectural
22:32arguments because I have no background
22:34in those areas um I think I I don't
22:38think we do know the complete full truth
22:40about 911 and my personal opinion uh
22:43aligns with uh uh Mr Scott in the sense
22:46that I think the murkiest areas are is
22:49this area of intelligence and what was
22:51known by Foreign intelligence Services
22:53what was shared with certain individuals
22:56but not fully shared um I think the
22:58NORAD call out if you you really want to
23:00pick a very obvious thing that the truth
23:02was not told about and everybody admits
23:04that now uh is that the Tim line on the
23:07NORAD call out is not accurate and I
23:09think one of the co-chairman of the 911
23:11Commission himself has said that they
23:12didn't get the truth on
23:14that right right and I've actually there
23:17was a New York effort to call for a new
23:19investigation that I wrote uh because
23:22911 served as the pretext for so many
23:26wrong so much uh including the order of
23:28torture the warrantless monitoring the
23:31the creation of this new security um
23:34surveillance uh whatever you want to
23:36call it top secret America is what the
23:38Washington Post called it 911 is the
23:40pretext for that and I think you see
23:44that is cog planning they planned it for
23:4720 years and then suddenly you have 911
23:51and they implement it and uh all I know
23:54is that the uh the 911 Commission
23:57actually it's a use ful report but uh
24:00everybody agrees it was very limited
24:02some of the biggest issues they didn't
24:04look at at all and uh I think that when
24:08it that when it comes to Ali Muhammad
24:11for example who clearly here is a very
24:14senior uh Al Qaeda operative who was a
24:17double agent who was sprung by the FBI
24:20after he was released by the RC when he
24:22arrested by the
24:24RCMP and uh what they said about that
24:27was
24:29almost almost the opposite of the truth
24:32and they relied on people who actually
24:35had been responsible for the massaging
24:38of Ali Muhammad in the court cases that
24:41arose out of the First World Trade
24:43Center bombing the the question of
24:46double agents I I agree with Colleen
24:49that uh the uh covering up snafus is one
24:53of the things that we see here but I
24:56think another thing we're also saying
24:57that they used double agents whom they
25:00thought they could control who didn't
25:02get out of control and although I keep
25:05talking about ali Mohammad he has a
25:08there's another one now which is Headley
25:10who the DEA actually paid to send to the
25:14uh to Asia to report on drugs and then
25:17he was there he did the same thing as
25:19Ali Muhammad he surveilled
25:22Mumbai uh for the terrorist bombings in
25:25Mumbai so it's not just once but it's
25:27twice that we've had these terrible
25:30disasters from relying on double agents
25:33now let me give you let me give you a
25:34counterargument in terms of some of this
25:37area um if you talk to a sort of
25:40seasoned investigative journalist for a
25:43newspaper they'll say that that too much
25:46of what get says particularly in terms
25:48of the internet conversation about some
25:50of these issues doesn't have to meet the
25:52standard of really verifiable
25:55information and that some things that
25:57get said you know if you ask what's your
25:58Source or what's your double Source
26:01often the stuff isn't sourced how do you
26:04respond to that Peter well I would say
26:06that probably 95% of the stuff on the
26:09internet is junk but then probably a
26:12high percentage of the stuff in the
26:14mainstream media media is also junk what
26:17I do see is that the uh the internet is
26:20improving I mean the there's no reason
26:23why you can't Source on the internet I I
26:26write mostly for the internet now now
26:28and I try to follow a journalist rule if
26:31it's a single Source story I won't use
26:34it I get very a lot of criticism for uh
26:37from people who say hey I've got a great
26:39story here and you're not using it I do
26:41that because uh a journalist has to get
26:44corroboration from another source and
26:46that can happen let me let me just
26:48finish off with leaks again you know
26:50there's an accusation here that that
26:53that governments need to have a certain
26:55level of secrecy and what if it's
26:57private Manning actually is the one that
26:59released this material that in theory
27:02that he's putting lives in Jeopardy this
27:03is a national security question
27:05governments have rights to be secret uh
27:08how do you address that Colleen when
27:09you're talking about the need for more
27:12transparency well uh I did give a couple
27:15of good examples and one thing is the
27:18the in this case
27:19Wikileaks uh actually is working with
27:23major media there were five newspapers
27:26and they actually had months to look to
27:28those documents and are being quite
27:29careful about what's released and
27:32they've redacted names out of the uh I
27:34think in some cases they've even let the
27:36government see what they were going to
27:38be releasing and and let them uh say if
27:40there was something on there I know
27:42Wikileaks took that effort too of
27:44actually saying if there's some names
27:46that you need blacked out and in the
27:48case of the Iraq War documents when they
27:51compared what uh Wikileaks had redacted
27:54out it was even uh more comprehensive
27:56than what the the government or the
27:58Pentagon had up till now no one uh has
28:01been able to find that anyone has been
28:03harmed as a result of the disclosures
28:06which I think is with the thousands of
28:09of documents that's you know pretty
28:11amazing that they that's happened and
28:14you as you said these are not top secret
28:16they're not the identity of a CIA
28:19operative Valerie Plame I mean they're
28:21they're really pretty low level confid
28:23most of them are confidential well I
28:25think part part of the problem too is
28:26that there's not enough sources of
28:28funding for investigative journalism to
28:30cut through some of this fog uh
28:33especially independent journalists who
28:35are not if you work in any of the major
28:37newspapers they they still have to be
28:39very careful about the lines that they
28:40stay within and there's very few places
28:44where investigative journalists can get
28:46funding who are willing to Simply follow
28:48facts for some of these deeper
28:50geopolitical stories which are you know
28:52there's a lot of pressure post 9911 not
28:55to ask certain questions and not to F
28:57follow certain fact Trails this I mean
29:00it's something the reason why we we
29:02wanted to start real news in the first
29:03place is we want to create a place where
29:06we could fund investigative journalism
29:07that won't be a fear of anything Peter
29:10any last words yes I feel I've always
29:14said this is a wonderful country I'm a
29:16Canadian but I'm I I love Living in
29:19America I love my neighbors and the
29:21people I meet as I travel around but the
29:24foreign policy of this country is badly
29:27out of whack doesn't represent the
29:29priorities of the American people we've
29:32gone into two uh preemptive Wars in for
29:35both Afghanistan and Iraq we can see
29:38that the Iraq War was a total disaster
29:41very few people now would defend the
29:44decision to go in I think that
29:46Afghanistan something had to be done in
29:49Afghanistan but what we're doing there
29:51is also wrong and it's in that context
29:54that the leaking of documents makes
29:57sense s it may be some risk to lives by
30:00leaking the documents but the war itself
30:03is certainly risking a lot of lives
30:05innocent civilian lives and as I say
30:08America has to do something in
30:09Afghanistan but not what it's doing now
30:12right thank you both for joining
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