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Position #1 On Google Is Dead (8.1 Million Searches Prove It) — Transcript

by Edward Sturm · 19,033 words · 2,679 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Joy Hawkins, welcome back to the
0:01podcast. Thank you for coming on.
0:03>> Super excited to be here. Um, I have a
0:05lot to talk about today, so should be
0:07good.
0:07>> It's going to be fun. So, all right.
0:09There's this 8 million search study
0:14that happened. That's insane.
0:18>> Yeah. So, I'll tell you how it started.
0:20I a couple months ago got a message from
0:23another SEO named Sheiler Dond. Don't
0:26know if you've heard of him. He's kind
0:27of under the radar. actually asked him
0:28if he like does any public speaking and
0:30he's like not really. So he's probably
0:32hasn't been on like a ton of podcasts,
0:33but the guy is actually insanely smart.
0:35He has this Chrome extension that
0:37basically takes like snapshots when
0:39people are searching. Um so it gives him
0:41like access to see like essentially the
0:43differences in Google search results.
0:46And he started noticing after the May
0:48core update of 2026 that uh there was a
0:51lot of fluctuation in what people were
0:53seeing. and he would say like, "Okay,
0:54you know, you do a search for, let's
0:56say, like Denver plumber and you're
0:58seeing one thing and then you get
1:00somebody else to search and they're
1:01seeing like a completely different
1:02order. Um, and then same thing for the
1:05next guy." And so he's just noticing
1:06like all this shuffling and he he
1:08messaged me. He's like, "Are you seeing
1:09this?" And I was like, "Actually, yes."
1:11I was like, "I noticed this the other
1:13day and so did one of my co-workers. We
1:15were looking at our rank tracker and we
1:18do we've been tracking organic rankings
1:20on a grid for a very long time which is
1:22I don't think not I don't think that's
1:24normal like most rank trackers they do
1:26grid tracking in local SEO they are only
1:29looking at map pack rankings. So we use
1:31this uh tool called places scout which I
1:33don't even know if you can sign up for
1:35the tool anymore like cuz they were
1:36bought out by Yex and I'm not sure what
1:38the new version uh entails but the
1:41version we're using the old version
1:42literally tracks organic rankings on a
1:44grid. So every time I send a keyword to
1:46be scanned, it does like 40 or 50 scans
1:49of that same keyword. And what we were
1:51starting to see is like traditionally
1:53speaking, when you would search
1:54something like Denver plumber, the grid
1:56was fairly consistent. So if you were
1:58third, uh you're pretty much third for
2:00the majority of the grid. And then the
2:02further you get away when you start to
2:03get into like other towns and cities and
2:05it starts to change because you've got
2:06proximity is a factor, right? But
2:08usually uh we would see in local SEO
2:11that you could dominate like a huge area
2:14um and it was fairly consistent as long
2:16as there was a city name in the term. So
2:18this is very different if you just type
2:19in plumber then you would usually see
2:22like it varies a lot based on where the
2:24person's searching. If they're in one
2:25area of the city they're going to see
2:27something. If they're in another area
2:28they're seeing something closer to them,
2:30right? So I was like yeah I'm seeing
2:32some variation but I I don't want to
2:34like come to conclusions quickly. like
2:36I'm I'm big on like I need to see more
2:38data. I need to repeat things. I need to
2:40make sure it's not just like a random
2:41oneoff. So I reached out to Mark Cabana
2:44over at Yex and I was like listen can
2:47you go through our reports and using the
2:50data from all the reports that we've run
2:53um can you tell me if this has changed?
2:55And I told him what my theory was. I was
2:56like my theory is that like basically
2:59you know a business used to rank kind of
3:00consistently for these keyword patterns
3:02and now they're not. And um basically
3:05what he found when he sent it back to
3:07me, he looked at over 8 million search
3:10results. So like again, cuz every time
3:12we're sending a grid, it's usually like
3:1340 50 searches. So he looked at over 8
3:15million total. Out of that 8 million, um
3:18he said 48.7%
3:21of them became more volatile starting
3:24the week of the Makeor update. And we
3:26have this like chart that we put on our
3:27blog and it's um it's basically like you
3:30know you've always had a bit of
3:31volatility but then it just spikes like
3:33crazy in May. And anybody that follows
3:37SEO news will know like when you have a
3:39core update there's always a lot of
3:40volatility but the thing is it stayed
3:42volatile. So it wasn't like your
3:44traditional like oh lots of volatility
3:45because there's no core update
3:46happening. It's like no no the graph
3:48spiked and then stayed spiked from May
3:51until today. So it didn't go away. Um,
3:55and essentially like we looked at a lot
3:57of different keyword patterns, a lot of
3:59different things. Um, the one that we
4:00saw get hit the hardest was that what we
4:03call explicit geo terms. So that was
4:05like your um main category plus city. So
4:09um again like Denver plumber,
4:11electrician, Dallas, that kind of thing.
4:13Those are the ones that used to be like
4:15fairly stable and now they are
4:17fluctuating like crazy. And I I showed
4:20an example um where you have like you
4:22know again a grid that's on the organic
4:23side like pretty green and then you have
4:25red patches because they're not in that
4:27area and now it's like red green red
4:30green red green like not ranking ranking
4:32not ranking ranking and it's like wo
4:34>> this method of marketing is so effective
4:36I had to make sure it wasn't against
4:38Google's rules before I kept using it.
4:40It's a form of SEO I call compact
4:42keywords. Whereas most SEO focuses on
4:45putting up articles to answer questions,
4:47how, what, when, compact keywords
4:49focuses on putting up dozens of pages
4:51that sell to searchers who are actually
4:53looking to buy. These pages rank on
4:55Google and convert so much better than
4:57normal that when I discovered this years
4:59ago, I couldn't believe this was
5:01allowed. It's less work, too. The
5:02average compact keywords landing page is
5:04only 415 words. Compact Keywords is a
5:0813-hour deep course on getting sales
5:10with SEO. A customer said, "We spent
5:12nearly $18,000 in the last year and a
5:14half on marketing and SEO through
5:16different agencies locally, and that did
5:18nothing. We decided to take the leap on
5:20the compact keywords course. We're now
5:22getting about 6 to eight calls per day
5:24on a good day, which is just unheard
5:26of." Another customer said, "Give it to
5:28a junior employee. Have them follow it
5:31exactly as Edwards laid out. You don't
5:33have to do anything, and you're going to
5:35gain a six-f figureure SEO level
5:37employee just by having them go through
5:39this course." Compact Keywords is about
5:41setting up an SEO funnel that brings you
5:43sales for years and years and years. It
5:46works with AI. It's less work than
5:48traditional SEO and it makes way more
5:51money. You can get it now at
5:52compactkeywords.com.
5:54Back to the podcast. So, yeah, you wrote
5:56you wrote uh on X, you said this SEO
5:59messaged me something bizarre. You
6:01reached out to Yex to dig into the data.
6:04what they found after analyzing 8.1
6:088.1 million search screenshots blew us
6:11away. So, right after Google's Mayor
6:13update, as you were saying, organic
6:15rankings became 48.7% more volatile. 97%
6:21of tracking reports started wildly
6:23shuffling. Mobile local searches were
6:26hit the hardest. Two people searching
6:29the exact same phrase at the at the
6:32exact same time are now seeing
6:34completely different results. Checking
6:37your rank once from your desk and
6:39claiming where number three is no longer
6:42the reality.
6:44>> Yeah. So that is the biggest takeaway
6:46from this that I would say I concluded
6:48is we in SEO we've known this for a
6:51while that like you search something
6:53where you are, I search something where
6:54I am, we're probably going to see
6:55something slightly different. Um, but I
6:57don't think the average business owner
6:58gets this. Like we still constantly have
7:00clients like, "Oh, I'm number three. I'm
7:02number four." No, you're not. Like,
7:03there's no number three. There's no
7:05number four. There's just businesses
7:07that are very visible and businesses
7:09that are not very visible. And so, I
7:11want to be really clear. I do not think
7:13this is like SEO is dead, whatever. I do
7:15think it's like giving a static position
7:18is dead. Like if you're trying to say
7:20I'm position one, that is an incorrect
7:22statement because you're like, well,
7:23you're position one this amount of
7:25times. And then depending on how large
7:27your sample size is, that number will
7:29change, right? So um I think what this
7:32is really problematic for, to be honest,
7:34is like tools, like tools that are
7:36reporting on rankings or tools that are
7:39um trying to give you a visibility
7:40status. If they're not doing hundreds,
7:42if not thousands of searches, I don't
7:45think they're accurate because, you
7:48know, let's looking at this grid.
7:50Sometimes I got a red, sometimes I got a
7:52green. Like, that's wild. And if it's
7:54just doing a single scan and saying
7:56you're not ranking, you could be ranking
7:58the next time you search. So, it's made
8:01competitive research extremely
8:03difficult.
8:05>> Okay. So, how about then for Yeah. for
8:08for SEOs who are trying to figure out
8:11it's like it's like look, we we know the
8:14click-through rate between position 4
8:16and position one is I mean position
8:20one's going to get way more clicks. Uh
8:23so how
8:26how does somebody who's trying to move
8:28up just those like couple of spots where
8:30they're so close but they need accurate
8:33data to to figure out what should
8:35somebody like that be doing?
8:37Yeah. So, there's two places you want to
8:39measure and you can see and this is what
8:41you should have been looking at probably
8:42all along, but again, this is something
8:44I feel like small business owners just
8:45don't get yet. Hopefully, within a year
8:47or so of them seeing different results
8:48all the time, maybe they'll get it. But,
8:51uh, you should be looking at traffic
8:52over rankings always, but then for local
8:55SEO becomes a little more nuanced
8:56because a lot of your leads don't go to
8:58your website. So like people that search
9:01on Google, if they find you in a local
9:04pack or they find you in an AI powered
9:06local pack, uh there's options to call
9:08you without going to your website. Like
9:10maybe they just read your reviews, look
9:11at your photos, whatever, and then call
9:12your business. Well, they never went to
9:14your website. So I think this also is
9:16good for call tracking companies because
9:19uh we have been pushing call tracking on
9:21our clients forever. Um, but I'm like,
9:23you have to know where your calls are
9:24coming from because it's so hard to
9:26correctly put attribution where it
9:28belongs. And at least call tracking
9:30gives you an ability to do that. And
9:33with AI and stuff, like you can even um
9:35use things like transcripts to figure
9:37out like what types of calls you're
9:38getting and that will help you with
9:39like, you know, matching to specific
9:41keywords. Um, but I think that the
9:43traditional like rankings are the end-
9:46all beall is just hasn't been true for a
9:48while and it's even more not true now.
9:52I wouldn't say that rankings were the
9:53end. I mean, obviously rankings were not
9:55the end all. Sales and making money is
9:57the end all
9:57>> when I started in SEO they were. I mean,
9:59again, like depending on how far back
10:00you go, it was like you're page one,
10:02position one, and that was like the
10:04thing to do, right?
10:05>> Well, I was going to Well, I was going
10:06to say that that rankings are still
10:08extremely important. Like that's the
10:10thing that they're super they're super
10:12important. You need that data.
10:14So the only way to get it from what I
10:16and I don't know tell me if if uh you
10:17have another idea but uh if you do
10:19enough scans you'll you'll get it right.
10:21So when I um showed a we have a
10:23competitor there's competitor tab inside
10:24places scout that will list all the
10:26different websites that showed up and
10:28how often they showed up. So I basically
10:30have um that tab that I'm always looking
10:33at and it'll tell you how many times
10:35each website was in the top three.
10:36That's all I care about. Like anything
10:38past the top three you're probably not
10:39getting traffic from. So, I look at like
10:41top three organic rankings, how often
10:43were you there, and then sort and you're
10:45going to see that like there's still
10:47sites that dominate. Like they're there
10:48the majority of the time that like SEO
10:50still works. But, um, I think
10:53[clears throat] the the kicker is you
10:54have to have enough scans to know that
10:56you can trust it because if you're only
10:58sending like two or three searches in,
11:00then I don't think you can trust that
11:01and there's nothing valuable in it.
11:05So, I mean,
11:09how is this going to change how you're
11:11really doing SEO? Like, that's
11:13>> Yeah,
11:13>> that's the question.
11:15>> So, for me, honestly, I have I use
11:17>> everybody. What are you saying to
11:18clients?
11:19>> Yeah. So, we're telling clients like
11:20we've been telling them forever like
11:21don't go search on Google and then
11:23assume wherever you see your business is
11:25where your customers are seeing
11:26business. The things we tell our clients
11:28is like you hire an SEO company to make
11:30you more money. Like, just forget about
11:32rankings for a second. And yes, that's
11:34part of the picture of what we're going
11:35to do is we want to make your website
11:36show up higher more often, but uh the
11:39idea that there's a static search page
11:41on Google is a thing in the past and I
11:43think it's becoming more and more of a
11:45thing in the past. Um so we tell our
11:48clients like at the end of the day it's
11:49all about revenue. So I think there's
11:52more um need to have really good
11:54tracking. Um I think that's really
11:56really important. So we have like
11:57monthly calls with our clients where
11:58we'll ask them like how many how many
12:00leads did you get this month or how many
12:01sales did you close? Like really that's
12:02the that's it. It's all that matters is
12:04business. And then we're making sure our
12:07clients are tracking where those are
12:08coming from. And most of them do. Like I
12:10think even small businesses do a good
12:12job of knowing where their revenue comes
12:14from. So they'll they'll be able to tell
12:16you like you know if we have a dentist,
12:17okay, I got like 20 p new patients this
12:19month from Google. Great. Again, we can
12:22see that too. We can see leads and we
12:24can track leads back to sources. So when
12:26we track like our main reporting for
12:28clients is a lead graph and it shows how
12:31many calls you got from Google My
12:32Business or Google business profile, how
12:34many calls you got from organic, how
12:35many calls you got from LLMs, how many
12:37calls you got from ads, like and it it
12:38shows them so you can see trends. Um,
12:41and I wouldn't stop there though because
12:42again leads leads are great. They're
12:45better than traffic, but the end all
12:47beall is did you actually close those
12:49people? Are they the right leads? Um, so
12:51I think it involves a lot more
12:52collaboration between the business and
12:54the SEO to make sure that you're going
12:56down the right path.
12:58>> There be would would you look at
13:00rankings at all?
13:02>> Yeah, we so the only the time I look at
13:04rankings is to figure out what tactics
13:06are working, right? So, and also to see
13:08like who's dominating like if I want to
13:10know I think where rankings are useful
13:12for me is if I want to know where the
13:13ceiling is currently in a market because
13:15there is a ceiling in local SEO. like
13:17you're not just going to be able to rank
13:20indefinitely for a large area and
13:22increase and increase and increase. So,
13:23I like to know who the winner is and how
13:26you stack up against them. So, that's
13:27what I use rankings for. And then when
13:30we're doing testing, which we're
13:31constantly doing, I look at rankings as
13:33one of the metrics to see if it worked.
13:36But it's like if I see ranking increases
13:38but I can't match it to traffic
13:39increases then I usually don't care
13:42about it cuz at the end of the day again
13:44like I need to make sure there's traffic
13:47otherwise I'm like do I trust this
13:48ranking report? Like I don't know.
13:51>> Yeah. The thing is just a lot of SEOs,
13:53they like to use rankings to figure out
13:55when to re-examine a page to see if it's
13:58underperforming. Mhm.
14:00>> And and and sales isn't going to give
14:02you as much isn't it's going to give you
14:06a tiny sliver of data compared to
14:08rankings when you're trying to figure
14:09out is my page underperforming compared
14:12to uh these other pages.
14:17>> Search console is usually like my go-to
14:20for figuring out if something's doing
14:21better or worse, right? Like if you're
14:23getting more traffic, great. If you're
14:24getting less traffic, that's bad. So I
14:26think [clears throat] of course Google's
14:28updates uh put more importance on
14:30Google's data and less importance on
14:32thirdparty data, right? Which I'm like
14:34that to me is an agenda they would want.
14:36Like of course Google wants you using
14:38Google products. And I've felt this way
14:40for a long time about keyword research.
14:41The best keyword research you can get is
14:43ad data. Like by a long shot, right? If
14:46you want to know what keywords to
14:47target, which ones convert, you're not
14:49going to get anything better than what
14:50Google ads will tell you. Um and I think
14:52that's how Google wants it, right? like
14:54they they want everybody relying on them
14:56for everything. And I think the best
14:58theory on why Google did this that I've
15:00heard, and these are theories, like
15:02there's none of us can prove this, is uh
15:04actually a really really smart guy. I
15:06don't know if you've ever had him on
15:07here, but his name's Ian Evans, and he
15:09runs um a SAS tool that does CTR
15:13manipulation. Um he's such a smart guy.
15:17Like so so smart. Even though I don't
15:19touch CTR manipulation, I've had so many
15:21great conversations with him. and he
15:23thinks that Google's doing it to combat
15:25CTR manipulation. I was like, that's so
15:27fascinating because it's true. Like,
15:29let's just say you've got a website and
15:31one search they're ranked position three
15:33and then another search they're ranked
15:34position six and Google is able to track
15:36that they're getting clicks, the same
15:38number of clicks in both positions.
15:39That's a sure sign that you're doing CTR
15:41manipulation, right? So, I was like,
15:43"Yeah, this would be a good safeguard
15:46against CTR manipulation, which it's
15:48probably becoming a growing pain in
15:50Google's butt cuz I've seen a lot more
15:53people doing it lately." I I won't do it
15:56cuz I'm like, even if they're not
15:58catching you now, I'm like, I think it's
16:00coming. I It's scared me. And I've seen
16:02this with links too many times that I'm
16:04like, I just don't want the I I don't
16:06want the mountains with the valleys.
16:08Like, I just want the steady growth. So,
16:11not willing to um spend my clients
16:13budgets on things that are going to
16:15potentially penalize them next year.
16:17>> What do you think about the go-to
16:18redirects?
16:20>> Oh, man. Okay, so this is another thing.
16:21I really do think that like Google is
16:23sick of people scraping them. Like
16:25that's that's what I think their agenda
16:26is here, right? They're sick of people
16:28scraping them. It costs them money, cost
16:30them resources, they get nothing from
16:31it. Um and I don't blame them. If I was
16:34them, I'd probably be the same way. So,
16:36I think they're trying to like
16:37aggressively block scrapers. And I've
16:40had so many talks with people that build
16:42SAS tools and things and um heard their
16:44problems of the things that Google has
16:46had them do. And this one is like wild.
16:49So I was chatting with someone the other
16:51day um who told me cuz we were like it
16:53broke a couple of the things in in rank
16:55trackers uh the go-tos, right? Because
16:57instead of seeing your website now the
16:59rank tracker is seeing a go-to URL. So
17:01how does it tell you what position
17:02you're in? So we originally saw it broke
17:05and then there was a solution that was
17:07deployed and then earlier this week that
17:09solution broke and when I reached out
17:11they were like um so now Google won't
17:14even give you like they used to have it
17:16in the code or something you could get
17:17the URL of the website now you have to
17:19actually visit the website to get that
17:21now I don't know if there's somebody
17:23really smart listening to this that's
17:24going to tell me there's a way around
17:25that but these people literally have
17:28found ways around Google for you know
17:30decades [clears throat] and that's what
17:32they're finding is they actually have to
17:33visit the URL in order to actually see
17:36the URL, which I'm like, that's
17:39problematic. Are we going to now have
17:41crappy click data in search console,
17:44which I don't want. We've already had
17:46crappy impression data for a very long
17:48time thanks to rank trackers. And I've
17:51always said like clicks are the thing
17:52you can trust, you know, as long as
17:54you're not doing CTR manipulation. But
17:56um if that's now going to be a thing,
17:58that's the only way that rank trackers
18:00and then I'm like, how much easier is it
18:02going to be for Google to then block
18:03those IP addresses? I I don't know. I
18:06don't know where this is headed.
18:07>> Yeah. Right. Because the clicks are
18:09getting inflated from the rank trackers
18:11clicking in,
18:12>> right? But they're not just clicking my
18:13site. So it's not like
18:16>> Yeah. Like if they're search they're
18:17doing it to every single website in the
18:19SER, right? So if there's 10 websites
18:21and they're clicking every single one,
18:22all 10 of those sites. So, even if I'm
18:24not doing rank tracking and my
18:26competitors all are and now I'm getting
18:28all these clicks, like I have no idea
18:29what's going to happen. I'm going to
18:31check on it next week and see if uh if I
18:34can see clicks from the rank trackers
18:36that we ran. Um I really hope not, but
18:39they don't filter it out for
18:40impressions. Impressions have massive
18:42spikes every time we run one of these
18:44reports. Um because there's thousands of
18:47keywords that are being searched every
18:49single time. Um, so I'm like genuinely
18:52concerned about what this is going to
18:54lead to.
18:55>> Yeah, we we were talking about this
18:57before we started recording and I said
18:59maybe uh maybe Google would actually
19:02work with the major SEO suites to just
19:05give them the data that they need
19:06because I mean it it it's pretty well
19:08they don't want Google Search Console
19:10data to be massively inflated either.
19:13>> No, they don't want they don't want
19:15that. And then you're and you're you're
19:16like you're like no Google Google hates
19:19these these companies. And then I'm like
19:21so I said why didn't Google roll this
19:25out 10 years ago? Why and I can't
19:27imagine that they didn't think about
19:28doing these redirects 10 years ago? I
19:31can't imagine I would I would bet that
19:33they've had this in their back pocket
19:35for over a decade.
19:37>> And it's it's like why why do it? It
19:40seems like they did it now to combat
19:42because they because the SER API case
19:45got dismissed and they need to stop the
19:49AI tools. Uh it was and it didn't it
19:53doesn't seem like it was a move against
19:55SEOs.
19:56>> Yeah, I think it's it's a move against
19:58all the people scraping Google, not the
20:00people bots, right? Like whether it's AI
20:02tools or whether it's uh rank trackers
20:05or whatever. I I can only imagine that
20:07since we have AI, how much more the
20:10volume is that is scraping Google and it
20:13costs them resources, right? Like to to
20:15to handle that. So, if it's
20:17significantly increased their cost, then
20:19obviously they're going to want to
20:20combat it. But I I don't personally
20:22think Google cares at all about SEOs.
20:24I've kind of always felt that way. I
20:26think you want Google as your friend
20:27because you don't want to like piss off
20:29the Google gods and you know,
20:31>> but I don't I don't know if that's true.
20:32Google writes about SEO all the time.
20:34They they put out an article saying good
20:36good geo is is good SEO. Like
20:39>> oh my god, the stuff they say is so bad
20:42though. Like there's so many statements
20:43that are like
20:45>> that's like a halftruth. And so if you
20:47don't know how to read it, there's so
20:48many people that misinterpret things. Um
20:50cuz I I do agree that good SEO is good
20:52geo, but also I can tell you straight up
20:55like the algorithm for the AI local
20:58packs on Google is so different than
21:00three packs. if you if it was the same
21:03and all you had to do is the same stuff,
21:04you get the same businesses and you
21:06don't. So that tells me it's different.
21:08And uh I've also like found the ways
21:11that you manipulate one versus the
21:12other, they're different. So it's like,
21:14yeah, it's kind of true cuz you're
21:16right, there's a lot of overlap, but
21:18this is the same conversation I had for
21:20years talking about how the local
21:22algorithm is different than the organic
21:23algorithm. Like guys, they are
21:25different. They have different factors.
21:26You got to look at them as separate.
21:27Now, we got three algorithms. We don't
21:29have two. So, I'm like, this is where
21:32Googlers go out and make statements. And
21:34I'm like, okay, like at the end of the
21:35day, Google wants to make money. Google
21:38wants everybody buying ads from them.
21:39They want to make money. They're a
21:40business, right? They don't owe us
21:41anything. So, I think that's the thing
21:43to keep in mind. Like, I'm not one of
21:44those SEOs that's like constantly
21:46railing on Google because I'm like, what
21:48do they owe me? Like, they don't owe me
21:50anything. I, you know, the only thing
21:52I've done for them is maybe, you know,
21:53help them make more money through ads.
21:54So, they like me for that. But I really
21:56don't think Google has any incentive or
21:58reason to care about SEOs. Um, I think
22:01we are manipulating them to make a
22:04business and I think it's fine and it's
22:05great and it's not going anywhere. I do
22:07think it's becoming more expensive. Um,
22:09so I agree with that uh statement.
22:11Darren Shaw said that when we were on a
22:13webinar recently and I was like, it's
22:14true. Like you now have to do like a lot
22:16more to compete and a lot of the cheap,
22:18scalable, easy tactics don't work as
22:21well as they used to. So, I do think
22:22it's getting more expensive.
22:25>> Like what? Like what doesn't work as
22:27well?
22:28>> Oh, man. Like like Okay, let's just say
22:30like uh scaling content, right? Like you
22:32used to be able to just throw up uh like
22:35a 100 different pages. You could swap
22:36some things out. Honestly, like there's
22:37strategies like that that have worked
22:39really really well for a long time and
22:40they are starting to nail that kind of
22:43stuff. Um one of the things I've noticed
22:45with AI local packs is that um keyword
22:48stuff in your business name doesn't work
22:49as well. So previously that was like a
22:53gold mine you know for uh businesses if
22:55they got like a keyword rich business
22:57name they would dominate the local pack
22:59that is not as true for the AI stuff
23:02it's looking at other factors higher
23:04probably a good thing um the other one
23:06what are the other tricks like making
23:08your operating hours longer that was
23:09another one that like works really well
23:11in the traditional local pack doesn't
23:12work as well for AI local packs they
23:14show closed listings all the time um so
23:17it's definitely different and I think
23:19like some of the easy easy wins. Um, and
23:22especially with
23:23>> Is it Is it that Google hates SEOs or is
23:26it that Google hates SEOs who do
23:30shortcuts?
23:32>> Yeah, definitely definitely that one. I
23:33I don't think Google hates all SEOs.
23:36There are some SEOs that genuinely try
23:37and like help their search results be
23:40better, but at the end of the day, I do
23:42think we're at odds with them because I
23:43think if Google had
23:45>> always hated SEOs who who hated who who
23:48were doing shortcuts, that's always it's
23:49always been that cat and mask game.
23:51>> Yeah. But I would argue even like the
23:53the people like I I think we follow
23:56Google's guidelines for the most part.
23:58Like I'm not a big like advocate of
24:00doing risky stuff, but at the end of the
24:02day, like I ignore lots of Google's
24:04recommendations because they're dumb.
24:06[laughter] So like,
24:06>> oh, for sure. I mean, Google Google
24:09gives gives halftruths and they don't
24:11like I made this episode about the good
24:13geo good is good SEO and how there are a
24:17lot of things that they didn't say like,
24:19yeah, it's like write this article about
24:21your firsthand experience and they don't
24:23mention you got to target a keyword if
24:24if you want it to show up. It's like
24:26like absolute basics or they're like um
24:30inauthentic mentions don't work.
24:32Inauthent inauthentic mentions
24:34absolutely work.
24:36>> Everyone knows that inauthentic mentions
24:38work.
24:38>> Totally.
24:39>> Uh yeah. Um but for the most part, I
24:43also agreed with a lot of the things
24:44that that were in that article. But
24:46>> yeah.
24:47>> Yeah.
24:48>> I'll tell you one theory I heard that I
24:49don't agree with. Some people were
24:51saying that this is like an AI thing and
24:53that the reason why the search results
24:54are varied is because like
24:56>> the go-to thing or or oh the the vari
24:58sorry that the the varied search
25:00results. Um so the reason why that
25:02doesn't make sense to me is that so when
25:04sheer did the original study he was
25:06looking at logged in users who are
25:08searching right so you and me searching
25:09from our computers logged into Google
25:11would see one thing. When we did this
25:13study it was all incognito logged out no
25:15like there's no Google profile because
25:17it's a rank tracker right? So it's not
25:18logged in. there's no history of the
25:21user cuz it's not a user. Um, so it
25:23can't be personalization. That just
25:25doesn't make any sense because there's
25:26no click history. There's no tracking.
25:29Um, and I'm not don't like I'm afraid
25:31I'm going to get questions about like
25:32how detailed the the rank tracker works
25:33and how it gets by Google systems and if
25:36it's a different IP address. I have no
25:37idea. That would be a good question for
25:39Mark. Um, but it can't be
25:41personalization. It's not the same thing
25:43as you seeing the websites you visit all
25:45the time higher. So, I just wanted to
25:47that was a theory. I kept getting that
25:49question on our article when we posted
25:51it on the video and people are like,
25:53"Oh, it's personalization." I'm like,
25:54"No, this is not personalization. These
25:56are um logged out users with no like
25:59click history." So, it's definitely not
26:01that. Um and I don't think it's like
26:03it's like working like AI in a sense. I
26:06think there's another agenda behind it,
26:08but that's just again I can't prove any
26:09of that. It's just my theory.
26:11>> What other interesting comments did you
26:12get? Yeah, I think people are like
26:15there's definitely from the business
26:16owners, they're like, "What do I do
26:17about this?" Right? And I'm like, again,
26:19my answer is like, you shouldn't have
26:21been measuring SEO success based on
26:23rankings alone. And again, sure, if you
26:25want to throw that in as a metric, my
26:26only advice would be make sure it's not
26:28just one scan. So, if you're going to
26:30use rankings, and this is where I think
26:32there's a lot of popular tools out there
26:33that don't do this, they don't do
26:35multiple scans. Like even some of the AI
26:38visibility tools, they're doing like 20
26:40searches a keyword. I'm like, come on.
26:42like you really think you're going to
26:43get anything uh valuable on which
26:45businesses show up more often? Like you
26:48have to do a ton to get uh valuable
26:51stuff. So I think for local you probably
26:53want a minimum of a few dozen to get
26:56meaningful data, right? If you do, let's
26:58say 40 50 searches and you're
27:01continuously seeing the same businesses
27:03in the top three, I think you can trust
27:05that data. If you're doing one search,
27:07two searches, three searches, I don't
27:09think you can trust that data. And I've
27:11seen this all the time in hrefs when I
27:13try to look at um I try to use the rank
27:15tracker because I like to know when
27:16we're doing an audit for a site and I
27:18see a drop. Uh I want to know like when
27:21that drop happens. The problem is you
27:22look at the graphs and they're like
27:24zigzags. It's like really hard. It's
27:26like this is not helpful. So I think
27:30it's problematic if you're like and
27:32again we get clients that do this are
27:33like oh my blank report told me I'm
27:36ranking number one and now I'm ranking
27:37number three. And I'm like, it's
27:39probably nothing like it's just
27:42fluctuation. This is the life of uh the
27:45search results, right? So, we just have
27:47to trust other metrics more.
27:50>> Somebody who's evaluating which SEO
27:52suite to go with, what should
27:54[clears throat] they be asking support
27:56to to figure out just like email sales
27:58or like try trying to figure out which
28:00one is best?
28:01>> I would say how many searches are you
28:03doing per keyword to come up with a
28:04position? Um if you're even looking at
28:06positions, right? So, I think that's
28:07that's a really important question to
28:09ask. Uh cuz if it's one, again, like
28:13very uh I'd be very skeptical of what
28:15you're seeing. Um because some of the
28:17businesses that are winners, like
28:19they're doing really well that are
28:21dominating markets still have zeros like
28:23where they didn't show up. And if that's
28:25the one scan, it's going to make you
28:27panic when you have no reason to panic.
28:29So, I think trust your search console
28:31data also like that's really uh better
28:34data than rank tracking. And then I
28:36would also say your your phone calls,
28:37right? Like I can't tell you how many
28:39times rankings don't agree with phone
28:41calls and like rankings are up but phone
28:44calls are down or vice versa. So this is
28:46where I'm like your phone calls matter.
28:48Being able to know like where they're
28:49coming from. Um that is the data that
28:52you should be tracking. And um I can
28:55definitely say like SEO tactics still
28:57work the same as they did a year ago.
28:59Different tactics, but they still
29:01there's still lots of ways to get more
29:03traffic from Google, to get leads from
29:04Google. That's what we're here for. Um,
29:07so definitely do not think this is bad
29:08for SEOs. I think this is good actually
29:11for SEOs because if you work in SEO, I
29:14think the average business owner being
29:16able to figure this out just got much
29:18harder. So
29:19>> I was thinking about that too. I think
29:20there's going to be less competition. I
29:22think there's going to be less
29:23competition and it's going to be a lot
29:24easier.
29:25>> Yeah. And so I think again I think that
29:27the people that are good at SEO, they'll
29:29be fine. the people that were taking
29:30shortcuts, the people,
29:31>> the people who listen to our podcasts,
29:33you're going to be okay. That's
29:35>> You'll be fine. Yeah. As long as you
29:36listen to Edward, you're good. But like
29:38>> listen to Edward, listen to Joy, listen
29:40to to David and our fantastic guests.
29:43>> Yeah. I do think it's harder for people
29:45getting into the industry, right? So,
29:47you know, to I think it's it's not going
29:48to be worse for you, Edward. It's not
29:50going to be worse for me. This is we're
29:51we're going to be fine. Like there's not
29:53going to be any issues here. But like
29:54getting into it definitely I think it's
29:55harder like it's harder to explain this
29:57to my like entry level people that are
29:59just starting.
30:00>> Yeah. But you know you know if if you've
30:02never if you've never done SEO and then
30:04you like you you find a target keyword
30:07and then you put it in the right places
30:08and then suddenly you see you're on page
30:10one that still says to you like okay
30:14we're going in the right direction here.
30:16>> And then you might you might be looking
30:18at Google search console and you might
30:19see you might see your clicks go up. and
30:22how I don't we could talk again about
30:24how trustworthy that click date is, but
30:26you're going to see that it's going to
30:27be relative at the end of the day. It's
30:28it's also going to it's it's going to
30:30adjust and and rank trackers are going
30:33to adjust how they do things slowly. So,
30:35it's it's all going to be like relative
30:37and you so you're going to see your
30:38clicks go up and then you're going to be
30:40like, okay, I'm doing like the right
30:42things here. And so, you can still you
30:44can still look at the data to figure out
30:47what's working well. And I think also
30:49David came on the show to talk about
30:50this with the go-to redirects. A lot of
30:52people are just building their own SEO
30:53tools now.
30:54>> Agreed. Like I wouldn't want to be an
30:57SEO tool right now. Like having to deal
30:59with this. It just sounds like a
31:00nightmare. Like I I'm very glad I'm not
31:02in that. Uh
31:04>> yeah. Yeah.
31:05>> But yeah, I think it's like the the
31:06direction rankings should increase
31:08traffic which should increase leads and
31:10which should increase revenue, right?
31:12Like as long as you can follow that
31:13trail, you're doing all the right
31:15things, right? It's like where in that
31:17trail things get broken. It's again, you
31:19have to diagnose it. Like I had a um I
31:22had a client the other day where I'm
31:24looking at their page and it got like
31:26zero clicks, but it was a page that we
31:29had optimized. I could see that rankings
31:30had gone up a ton, but zero clicks, like
31:33literally nothing. And then I look at
31:34their calls from their Google business
31:36profile um and their Google Business
31:38profile calls have like shot up like
31:39crazy. Like they almost doubled in a
31:41month. And the business is like
31:43thrilled. They were like, "Oh my gosh,
31:44we got so many leads from this exact
31:46type, from that exact page that like you
31:48optimize like the the top."
31:50>> How do they know it's a page?
31:51>> Well, sorry.
31:53>> How do how do they know it's the page
31:54that's leading to the calls?
31:56>> Well, it's like the main thing that we
31:57did, right? So, we optimized for a
31:59particular term. It's like a really
32:00niche term, probably the stuff you talk
32:02about in your course,
32:03>> and then they started getting calls for
32:05that thing. And uh they're getting calls
32:07on their Google business profile. So,
32:08they're not the person's not clicking
32:10the organic result, right? They're I
32:11guess finding them because their Google
32:13business profile increased in ranking.
32:15They're now getting more calls for this
32:16thing. It's a really lucrative thing for
32:18them. So, it's like a huge money maker
32:20and they're like, "Oh my god, like again
32:22like within weeks of us kind of doing
32:24our stuff, they're getting all these
32:26calls." So, it's it's clear like but if
32:27I looked at search console literally the
32:29page has zero clicks and I'm like if I'm
32:31the only measuring it based on that I'm
32:33going to be like this wasn't worth it.
32:34>> So, it's I' I have a lot of those now
32:37and this is where I'm like it's nuanced.
32:39I think the number one thing I hear at
32:41SEO conferences from like uh smaller um
32:45SEO companies is they they hate talking
32:46to clients. They're like, "I don't want
32:48clients. I don't want to talk to
32:49clients." And I'm like, "You kind of
32:51have to like this is becoming like a a
32:53deal breakaker because I need to connect
32:55those dots." So, I need to know uh what
32:58the business is actually making money
33:00from. So, like I can't even tell you how
33:02much of our calls in the last year have
33:03shifted from like us talking about like
33:05random SEO tactics to like how is your
33:07business doing? What are you getting
33:09more of? What are you getting less of?
33:10What do you care more? What's making you
33:11more money? Like, we're actually like
33:13asking them way more about their
33:14business than we did a year ago. Um,
33:17>> it would be it would be cool to to have
33:19like um so you you you
33:22track all everything that comes into
33:24your contact forms because you're
33:25absolutely right when you're targeting
33:27bottom ofunnel keywords, the support
33:30requests you get, you can tell what page
33:34they came from based because they will
33:36use language related to that term, that
33:39bottom ofunnel term that you targeted
33:41because you're targeting these different
33:42scenario-based terms and you can tell
33:44why they are there And uh and so if you
33:48have an LLM that knows the keywords that
33:51you're targeting and it sees all these
33:54all these support requests, it can
33:56actually group people into where they
33:58most likely came from. And then you can
34:00kind of you can use that as well to
34:02figure out what's working and and what's
34:04not.
34:05>> I'll also say like a thing that's really
34:06important that uh unfortunately um this
34:09is going to sound old school, but like
34:10just asking people how they heard about
34:12you. I think like that's becoming more
34:14more necessary because G4 even like
34:18attribution there is jacked up because
34:19somebody was telling me the other day
34:20like you know AI isn't getting as much
34:23>> credit as it probably should because
34:24people might do their search on AI and
34:26then go to Google and then your branded
34:28searches go up but they found you
34:30somewhere else and then you're like how
34:31do you know it was AI? Well, we ask
34:33everybody that contacts us and then we
34:35track it, right? We we put in a source.
34:38Um, so I do think like, you know, every
34:40business should be making an effort to
34:42do that like old school. Make sure you
34:44ask everybody how they heard about you.
34:46And don't be surprised if they like list
34:48multiple sources, but um [clears throat]
34:50it's some small business do this, some
34:53don't. But I'm like you can't rely on
34:54just tools to do all that for you if you
34:56want like a lot of accuracy.
34:59>> So you were saying that we have all
35:00these different algorithms now. What are
35:01the biggest ranking factors for the
35:03local algorithm? Yeah. So, local
35:05algorithm, it's reviews. Like, honestly,
35:08I wish uh a lot of days I wish this
35:10wasn't the case, but reviews are like
35:11the biggest factor. It's um there's
35:14three different metrics when it comes to
35:15reviews that matter. Uh so, it's the
35:17average rating, so that you know, if you
35:19bump up from a 4.5 to a 4.6, you'll see
35:22a ranking boost. It's the number of
35:23reviews. Uh we see a specifically
35:25there's a ranking boost when you hit 10
35:27past that. It's a matter of how you
35:29stack up to your competitors. So, if you
35:31are at 100 and the guy you're competing
35:34with is at 500, you've got work to do.
35:36And then the third one is the volume of
35:38uh the frequency, sorry, of reviews. So,
35:40even if you're the number one leader
35:42when it comes to numbers, if you stop
35:43getting new ones, uh your rankings will
35:45start to fall. And um we tell people
35:47like with local pack rankings, if you're
35:49not like actively getting reviews, we
35:52can do everything in the world right for
35:54SEO and you're not going to stay in the
35:56three-pack. And it's frustrating because
35:58I it's I can't control it. like my
36:00customers have to go get the reviews.
36:03So, it's always been a dealbreaker. We
36:05are really upfront with people right at
36:06the bat. We're like, "Listen, we'll do
36:07our stuff. As long as you do the reviews
36:09piece, you'll win, but we can do lots of
36:12good stuff. And if your reviews start
36:14dipping, it's so much of a factor." And
36:16this is one of the I think maybe good
36:19things depends on where you fall on the
36:22thing here, but with AI local packs,
36:24reviews are not like that. like it is
36:26not always the top reviews that Google
36:29shows. Um, which is nice, I think, for
36:33like the smaller businesses. Uh, because
36:36sometimes when you start in a market and
36:37you have like a monster business that's
36:39got 5,000 reviews, like how do you
36:40compete with that? Like I have no idea.
36:43Um, so I do think that that is good for
36:46uh the brands that are not the dominant
36:48leaders. These are um something they're
36:51all over mobile in the US. They're now
36:54in Canada. They started showing up uh
36:56this summer and they are basically an AI
36:59overview, but instead of like a
37:01traditional three-pack, it shows usually
37:03two businesses. The first one's fully
37:05visible, the second one gets cut off, so
37:06it's like one and a half. Um, and you
37:09can click show [clears throat] more and
37:10then it'll expand and show you like a
37:11list. Um, we're seeing them all over the
37:14place now. uh they were on about 10ish%
37:17queries for the majority of this year um
37:19in the United States. And I don't know
37:21what other countries they're in because
37:22I'm only tracking the US and Canada, but
37:25I know Canada, they weren't they weren't
37:26here earlier this year and now they're
37:28here. Um and you're way more likely to
37:31see it on a mobile device. So if your
37:33rank tracker is also only tracking
37:35desktop, you're not going to be seeing
37:36them at all. Um actually, I take that
37:39back. I do see them on desktop, just not
37:40as often as on mobile. How important are
37:45keywords in the reviews when when the
37:48reviewers are using keywords?
37:50>> So that one I would say is more more
37:52important for AI because of AI actually
37:55pulling in like reviews and review
37:58texts. That's something that they do. Um
38:00so often if I'm like I want a dentist
38:04that is um good with kids for example um
38:08I'll get like a if I search using AI
38:10mode or uh if I get an AI review it'll
38:12like specifically look at reviews and
38:14say like okay here according to the
38:16reviews it'll say that like this person
38:18said like oh their kid got like a candy
38:20at the end or whatever. Um, so I think
38:24review like like the keywords or the
38:26detail of the reviews is going to matter
38:28a little more for AI. Um, we did a test
38:31years ago to figure out if we could um
38:34move rankings based on like putting
38:36specific keywords in reviews. It wasn't
38:37like a huge test. We picked a business
38:39that had like 20 reviews and then my
38:41staff left like 12 for them, all
38:44positives and like it was like a tree
38:45farm. [laughter] Um, so we were like
38:47trying to like get them to increase for
38:49like a very specific thing for trees and
38:52uh it didn't work. Um, so we we tried
38:54that for I think it would spread it over
38:56like a month or two. I've heard people
38:58who um buy reviews say that it does
39:01work. Maybe they're doing hundreds of
39:03them. I have no way to test that
39:05ethically. So I uh I don't know if they
39:08matter for three-pack rankings, but our
39:10our test on it failed.
39:12>> How important or how what's more
39:15important? having a keyword in in okay
39:19so like fast Wi-Fi let's use that as an
39:22example actually the reason that I'm
39:24saying that is I just got back from
39:25Chicago my hotel didn't have the Wi-Fi
39:28that I was hoping that it would have and
39:30you know this show comes out every day
39:32and so I I had to find a cafe with fast
39:35Wi-Fi to go to to upload so I used Ask
39:38Maps and I said this is this is this is
39:41my hotel give me a cafe next to it that
39:43has fast Wi-Fi and Ask Maps was it
39:47looked like it was primarily looking at
39:50the keywords that mentioned Wi-Fi, that
39:53mentioned speedy Wi-Fi, fast Wi-Fi, so
39:55and so, and I actually ended up finding
39:57a really great place. Uh, and so I
40:00wonder though if it was just because the
40:05businesses around me, and I was in a
40:06very central part of Chicago. I was in
40:08Westloop and I wonder if it was uh
40:11because the businesses around me didn't
40:16have fast Wi-Fi in their Google business
40:18profile or if it was just because fast
40:23Wi-Fi is being used in the in the
40:24reviews.
40:25>> Yeah, I would say reviews would likely
40:27be the culprit for that one because it's
40:29a subjective thing. So, Google isn't
40:30going to give the business a field for
40:32it because well, what's fast? I don't
40:34think they're going to trust the
40:34business on that. They're going to trust
40:36consumers on that. kind of similar to
40:38like what's the best food, you know?
40:40>> Yeah. And I think I did and I think I
40:42did when I was researching see some
40:44businesses describe themselves as fast
40:46Wi-Fi, but but Google chose to look at
40:49what pri chose to prioritize what the
40:51reviewers were actually saying.
40:53>> Yeah. And and this this is the funny
40:55thing. So on your business profile, like
40:57the description field doesn't impact
40:59ranking. We've done a lot of tests on
41:00it. In fact, I was trying to figure out
41:01if like the AI snippets show a little
41:04description. Even those aren't really
41:05influenced by what you put in. I don't
41:07even know why Google has a field because
41:08they don't use it for anything. Um, but
41:10your website, I will tell you that you
41:12can absolutely control stuff based on
41:15content on your website. And this is
41:17where like I I've, you know, probably
41:20you've heard Lily Ray talk about how
41:21Google's um cracking down on
41:23self-promotional listicles and things
41:25like that, right? It works until it
41:26doesn't, right? Like I think businesses
41:28that put out like one or two uh do
41:31really well from it and then if you
41:32start putting out a whole bunch, that's
41:34when you get in a lot of trouble. Um, we
41:36saw for a uh I tweeted out an example.
41:39It was I think best lawyer Tampa. It
41:41might still be out there. You might be
41:42able to replicate it. And the AI local
41:45results because this was one that pulled
41:46a AI local pack was literally pulling a
41:49list from a listical following the
41:52entire order of the list. So that the
41:54order that the businesses ranked on
41:55Google was exactly the way that they
41:57ranked on this list. Oh, sorry. I think
41:59it was best personal injury lawyer, not
42:00best lawyer.
42:01>> And it's one of the personal injury
42:03lawyers in the list who's the first guy.
42:05It's his listicle on his website. He
42:06lists himself first. He lists like seven
42:09or eight lawyers after him and the the
42:11order literally matches. So I'm like
42:13that's crazy that this guy literally
42:15hijacked like the entire local pack
42:18based on a listical on his website that
42:20Google tells you not to do. I'm not
42:22saying go do this to be clear because
42:23again I'm like I've been on the fence on
42:26>> do you want just one? Do you want like a
42:28bunch? And I don't know people have you
42:29definitely don't want
42:31>> I was going to ask you how many is too
42:32many self-promotion listicles. If you
42:34had asked me last year, I would have
42:35said like do a few. I don't do them at
42:37all anymore because um I again I think
42:40there's too many reasons not to now. Um
42:43and so I think it's fine to refer
42:45yourself as the best again in a limited
42:47fashion. But I wouldn't go create a
42:48listical with a bunch of competitors
42:50because um right now Google for each of
42:53the competitors is now quoting this
42:54other guy's website as the site of this
42:56like the source. So instead of listing
42:58the website of the law firm um it's
43:00listing the competitor. I don't know. It
43:03gets messy and I don't know, especially
43:05in the legal industry where we work a
43:06lot. I don't know what the implications
43:08of that are. I don't know if the other
43:09lawyers can do something about that
43:11because you're not really like the bar
43:12has rules around this stuff. Um, and
43:15from what I've been told by my Florida
43:18clients, you're not supposed to do this.
43:20So, I don't know. It it gets too messy
43:22for me to I I don't want my clients
43:24having like legal problems or, you know,
43:27problems with the bar. Um, so I've kind
43:29of shied away from it, but I I used to
43:31think it was fine originally because it
43:33worked so well. Now I think it's I don't
43:37know. There's risks involved. So proceed
43:39with caution.
43:40>> I you know I I saw I I think it was X
43:42that I saw this um I forget who who who
43:45shared it, but like somebody was taking
43:47their comp somebody noticed that the
43:49number two spot was what was being uh
43:52referenced when you have a
43:54self-promotionalistic.
43:55So [laughter] this person was putting
43:57their competitors number one and then
44:00putting themselves number two.
44:02>> Yeah. And this is why Google hates SEO.
44:04So
44:04>> yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
44:05>> We pull this [laughter] up. But also,
44:07okay, so this is where I I kind of look
44:08at it this way. If there's a better way
44:10to optimize for best, I believe there is
44:12that gets you there anyway that doesn't
44:14have any risk attached to it, do that
44:16instead, right? That's where I go to it.
44:18So, I'm like, I think it's fine to do
44:19risky things as long as the risk isn't
44:21too high and it's the honest best way to
44:23do it cuz nothing else works. Then,
44:25okay, like maybe you should do it. But
44:27to get listed for best, there's better
44:29ways to do that. Like, get some awards,
44:32beef up your page, let let the awards
44:34call you the best and then and then
44:36quote them. Then you're not really
44:37saying it yourself. You're just like,
44:39"Oh, I won best law firm, so I'm the
44:42best law firm." Like, you you can put
44:44that on there, right? and that'll have a
44:45similar effect and there's no risk to
44:47doing that. So, I think that I think
44:48there's just better ways.
44:50>> I've also just like straight up I've al
44:52also always not been a fan of going
44:55after best x for y best x for y
44:58keywords. I've I've always not been a
45:00fan after go of going for those keywords
45:02because the intent for those is not
45:05necessarily somebody who just wants to
45:07like one-shot it. They're going to look
45:09pick the top one and then go. A lot of
45:11these searchers want a comparison shop
45:13and so the intent isn't isn't quite as
45:17high. And if you actually just remove
45:19best and you target you you target the
45:22keyword where you just say like, you
45:24know, this is what we do. This is why
45:25we're credible. This is why people love
45:26us, you might show in that SER for best
45:29anyway.
45:30>> And and yeah, you might show in that SER
45:33for best anyway.
45:35>> And you might show really high if if you
45:37have a good page title and you're
45:38keeping people on the page. Uh, and I've
45:40just I've never been a huge fan of going
45:43after these best X for Y type keywords.
45:48I think they're I also think they're
45:50quite I think they're like a a not
45:52creative way of doing SEO cuz it's like
45:55the very obvious, okay, like what do we
45:57target? Okay, yeah, we are a personal
45:59injury injury lawyer in in uh Nebraska.
46:04Let's go after best personal injury
46:06lawyer in Nebraska because it's like the
46:08only thing. And you can actually just
46:10say like personal injury lawyer in
46:12Nebraska. We get you these results in
46:15the page title. Something like that.
46:16People click you have a really good
46:18page. Oh, wow. Okay. And we we do this
46:21different than other ones. You say that
46:22in the page. Oh, okay. That's that's
46:26good.
46:27>> Yeah. I never think it's been more
46:28important to have a unique selling
46:29proposition than than now. like you you
46:31got to have something that makes you
46:33different and like clarify that because
46:34the things that I've noticed that Google
46:36pulls in um with the AI overviews, it's
46:38like they are looking for what makes you
46:41credible and what makes you better and
46:42then they're highlighting those things
46:44and it's really cool cuz you can control
46:45it like you can literally um edit text
46:48on your website and have it change like
46:51what Google shows in the AI overview um
46:54as a description for your business. So
46:56like the number one place they are
46:57looking for that information is on your
46:59website. That is great news for SEOs and
47:02business owners because like I have seen
47:05again the business site or website there
47:07was a study done by Ben Fischer recently
47:09over at Study Demand. I believe it was
47:1160% of the citations that they looked at
47:14for local queries were the business
47:16website. They're like it was more than
47:18all the other sources combined. Um so
47:21like you actually have a lot of control
47:23over what um AI says about you by just
47:27your own website.
47:29So, the website's not dead. It's good.
47:31[laughter]
47:32>> Are you um You're always running really
47:33cool experiments. Are there any that
47:35you're running right now?
47:37>> Oh, man. Yeah. We're What am I running
47:39right now? We're running some I'm
47:40running some around content pruning. So,
47:42this concept of like Yeah, you've got
47:44>> I've got this one site that has I forget
47:46how many. Like I think he's got like a
47:47thousand pages that get like zero clicks
47:50and so we're deleting them all and
47:52seeing what happens. Um been a while
47:54since I've done one at scale. like
47:56usually we're just like, you know,
47:58deleting a page here and there and
47:59stuff. So, I'm trying that one out.
48:00We're doing a ton of ad experiments
48:02right now. Um, so lots in that arena. I
48:05think that Google's got so many new cool
48:07features. Trying to think what else
48:09we're doing. Um,
48:12yeah, I'd have to actually like look up
48:13my list. We we usually have like about a
48:16couple dozen running at a any given
48:18time. I'm doing a test on content, too.
48:20Uh, where I had um we have a tool that
48:22takes transcripts and turns it into
48:25content. using Claude. Um, and so I took
48:28some of those pages that we had already
48:30published and said, "Okay, give this to
48:32a human writer and take this content
48:33down that the tool got from the
48:35transcript, have the human write from
48:37the transcript instead, and I'm going to
48:39see if there's any difference." I'm not
48:41expecting there to be any difference at
48:43all, but uh, we'll see.
48:45>> So, you're turning you're turning
48:47YouTube or sorry, you're turning podcast
48:50transcripts.
48:51>> Yeah, we interview our clients. So, one
48:53of the biggest ways that we take client
48:55uh content, sorry, from our clients is
48:57that we do like an hour interview with
48:58them and we will get their expertise on
49:01a topic, right? Cuz we want to get the
49:02stuff that's not already on the web. If
49:04we go write it ourselves, we're going to
49:06be compiling information from stuff that
49:08already exists. So, I'm like, tell me,
49:09you know, your experiences, like if
49:11you're a home service company and you
49:12went out to a house, tell me what you
49:13did. Tell me what you fixed. What were
49:14your problems? How much did it cost?
49:16Like that stuff. And then we take that
49:17transcript and we turn it into content
49:20using um this tool that my colleague
49:22Noah Learner built. Um and so it's
49:24really good. Does a really good job of
49:26quoting um things that were said in the
49:28interview and stuff. So now I'm like,
49:29"Okay, I want to see if a human writer
49:31taking that same transcript will produce
49:33anything better that will rank better
49:36than what the tool used." Cuz like I've
49:38had some of my staff are like, "Well,
49:39it's AI content because it's an AI
49:41powered tool." And I'm like, "It doesn't
49:43matter." But I want to actually like
49:45have something to show that it doesn't
49:46matter. So, um that's where I'm actually
49:50having a human writer try it to see if
49:51there's uh any difference. I could be
49:53wrong,
49:54>> but I'm not expecting it to be
49:56different.
49:56>> I wanted to ask you because you were
49:57mentioning call trackers. What what what
49:59do you recommend for call trackers?
50:01>> Yeah, so we usually like I see the
50:03majority of our clients use Call Rail.
50:04They're they're kind of the giants in
50:06the space that we work in. Um, some of
50:08them have their own proprietary stuff
50:09and whatever, but Call Rail is really
50:11easy to use and uh integrates really
50:13well with like Google properties and
50:14stuff.
50:16>> Uh, the pruning thing is I'm I'm looking
50:18forward to that experiment. I I came
50:19across this post on X and this woman was
50:22like, "Yeah, I deleted uh I pruned 200
50:24pages and our rankings just like shot
50:26up."
50:27>> And [clears throat] um
50:29>> I've heard so many of those.
50:30>> I'm a huge fan of pruning. I'm a huge
50:33fan of of of pruning for sure. So, if
50:36you want to interview somebody on that
50:37topic, talk to Lars Lofrren. I don't
50:39know if you've had him on, but he
50:41>> many times. Lars is great.
50:42>> Yeah. Oh, he's
50:43>> Oh, yeah. We've talked about pruning. We
50:44We did this like two three hour helpful
50:48content update episode with him,
50:50Gogenra, and David Quaid. And he's like,
50:53"One of the things that I will do to
50:55recover an H an HCU site is we will do
50:59like this mega prune." And the the
51:02people of the site, they hate it. And I
51:04hate it. and everybody hate hates it,
51:05but we got to do it anyway. And and so
51:07we had this long discussion about how to
51:09figure out what to prune, how to like go
51:12about it. [snorts]
51:14>> That's an interesting So, I will tell
51:15you, I've done pruning on uh like HCU
51:18level hits sites. It wasn't I don't know
51:20if it was HCU specifically, but like I
51:23called them classifiers. Like whenever
51:25you have a domainwide penalty and none
51:27of your crap ranks and you went from
51:29like here to like here all in one core
51:31update, that's that's usually when you
51:33have a domain level penalty. So I I have
51:35a list of sites that have those um that
51:38I track and uh we definitely got like a
51:41bunch of businesses in that camp earlier
51:43this year contact us. And for a few of
51:46them, I did a big pruning project uh
51:49where we deleted like a good chunk if
51:52not like 50% more than 50% of their
51:54content. Uh cuz nothing was ranking
51:55anyways. So I looked back and I was like
51:57which pages were leading to leads and
51:59conversions and like really really
52:00matter. Kept those and like just got rid
52:02of all the rest. It didn't recover the
52:03domains yet. So I don't know. I should
52:05ask Lars like what the timeline is. But
52:07this was the spring of this year. None
52:09of them recovered with like the Mayor
52:11update or August um or anything like
52:13that. So, it it didn't work yet. Um, if
52:17you have a domain penalty, but I I don't
52:19know how often Google comes back to
52:20re-evaluate those. Like, if they've
52:22completely nailed your domain,
52:24>> how often do they even like look to see
52:26if they'll regain?
52:27>> What external signal are you like once
52:29you've done this pruning, are you are
52:31you driving external signals or to the
52:34site? Are you
52:34>> getting better and stuff? Are you
52:36building links, getting brand mentions,
52:39>> all sorts of these things?
52:40>> I mean, they're all big businesses or
52:41real businesses and stuff too, right?
52:43Like one of them is a um they're a
52:46massive company that has like tons of
52:49locations. Like they're a well-known
52:51brand. So I mean they're just naturally
52:53going to
52:54>> Why did they get hit by the HCU?
52:56>> Uh AI content. So scaled.
52:59>> When when was when was it?
53:01>> Uh most of these were either June or
53:04December of last year. Um one of those
53:06core updates.
53:07>> Okay. Okay. Yeah, those were the two
53:09>> there's different there's all these
53:10different helpful content updates
53:12>> and so like I'm I'm more so talking
53:14about like content sites.
53:16>> Yeah. No, these are actual businesses
53:18like real [clears throat] businesses. Um
53:20the other big one that it
53:21>> pass that's I mean that like yeah those
53:24those penalties are devastating. That's
53:26why that's why like me, you, everybody,
53:31even people, even people who wear very
53:33dark hats say don't play around with
53:37scaled content on your money site. Don't
53:39do it.
53:40>> Big brands need to hear this because
53:41they're getting pitched like, "Oh, you
53:44can spin up like, you know, a page for
53:46every neighborhood, a page for every
53:47city, and like, you know, and your
53:49traffic will go up." And that's actually
53:50a true statement because your traffic
53:51will go up until it it declines. But
53:54>> again, a year ago, I don't think this
53:55was risky. Uh I never seen any reason
53:58not to do it other than it's a waste of
53:59time, right? You put up a bunch of
54:01content and it doesn't rank, then you've
54:03wasted a bunch of time. Um but now it's
54:06like, oh no, there's actually a risk
54:07involved. Um so yeah, I agree. Like big
54:10brands need to hear this cuz some of the
54:12things I've I've seen I'm like, what
54:14were you thinking? But they there's some
54:16new, you know, hot shot in the marketing
54:19company that comes in and that's like we
54:20can scale your traffic and we can, you
54:22know, do all this awesome thing and like
54:24and then it just uh crashes, right? But
54:27I think it was June of last year,
54:29December of last year, and May of this
54:31year that were the most devastating to
54:33local business sites. Um, so those are
54:36the updates.
54:37>> If you're a scammer, it's a pretty good
54:38business model. Think about it. You you
54:40you go into a you go into a company that
54:43doesn't know anything and you're like,
54:44"Listen, I'm going to I'm going to 100
54:46times your organic traffic. It's going
54:48to be crazy. It's going to blow your
54:50mind." And then you're like, "Let's see
54:51it." So, you put in this scaled AI
54:53content and it works for a bit. And then
54:56while it's working, the CEO, the CMO is
55:00giving you the most incredible
55:01recommendations. This guy is so legit.
55:04This girl is so legit. Look at what they
55:07did. Oh my god, this is crazy. Every day
55:10it's doubling. This is insane. And now
55:13you have all these recommendations and
55:14then it crashes and and you're and
55:17you're just like, "Oh, don't worry.
55:18It'll come back. I don't know what's
55:19wrong." I like, "Don't worry."
55:21Meanwhile, you've had all these
55:23recommendations for people who are
55:24paying you to go into their companies
55:26and doing it and it's working for them.
55:27And kind of like a parasite, you're
55:29you're like spreading and and then by
55:31the time that people realize that you
55:33are the reason that their businesses
55:35aren't showing up anymore, it's like now
55:38you're you have gotten so many crazy
55:41recommendations.
55:42And most people aren't going to go and
55:44write bad things on you. If you're if
55:46you're a scammer,
55:48that's a pretty good scam tactic.
55:50>> See, I don't I don't recommend that. I'm
55:52not recommending that. I'm not
55:53recommending that. But I'm just I'm
55:55thinking out loud which is like
55:56>> okay
55:57>> it's there's a reason that there's a
55:58reason that like you don't see when
56:00people are when people share on X look
56:03at this crazy growth from my scaled from
56:05my AI content pipeline. There's a reason
56:07that they don't show the aftermath.
56:10There's a reason.
56:11>> Well, yeah. So there's a there's a
56:12company I know the company behind it cuz
56:14we we got one of their clients and they
56:16hired them to do link building and it
56:18was cloud stacking. So that that
56:20terminology if you're not I don't know
56:22Google it. I think Kyle Roof has a
56:23really good article that talks about
56:25what cloud stacking is. They were doing
56:27that. It's actually really easy to find
56:28their clients because you start seeing
56:30the same, you know, b like businesses
56:32linked to from some of the same websites
56:34and then you get the format down. It's
56:35like you can reverse engineer it and get
56:37like a list of all their clients. So I I
56:38did that a little bit like I looked to
56:40see what other sites were on the same
56:42network through the same company, found
56:44a list of their domains and I started a
56:45prediction list and I was like this
56:46site's going to crash, this site's going
56:48to crash. And this year I've taken at
56:49least like five or six already off the
56:51prediction list because they crashed.
56:53>> So I'm like this is sad that I'm able to
56:54actually predict this now. Um because I
56:57saw this one guy crash, knew this was
56:59why he crashed, and then now I'm seeing
57:01others in the same boat. But the crazy
57:03thing is you look through the list, more
57:05than half of them are still climbing. So
57:07it's like, you know, like they're still
57:10doing really well. So
57:12>> until they're not.
57:13>> Exactly. But I'm like, I don't know if
57:14these people even realize or I don't
57:16know if they're like intentionally doing
57:18it. I think it's because
57:20>> Google never used to penalize this to
57:22the level that they are now. So, it
57:23wasn't like it was it was fine to do it
57:26like a few years ago. Um, but like I I
57:29never saw small businesses, not in the
57:31industry that I'm in, like in local SEO,
57:32I never saw small businesses getting
57:33domainwide penalties a couple years ago.
57:35Like never saw it. Um, and maybe I just
57:38wasn't dealing with spammy enough
57:39verticals because I've talked to other
57:40people who have, but like I didn't see
57:42it. We get like tons of businesses
57:43contacting us all the time. So,
57:45>> and what Lily Yeah. So, so Lily Ray,
57:48she's been on both of our shows and I I
57:50clipped up um I clipped up our episode
57:52into shorts and one of the things she
57:54said was that when it becomes a real
57:57when something becomes a real problem,
57:59Google will take hyperaggressive
58:02measures.
58:03>> Hyperaggressive. And of course scaled AI
58:06content is going to become I mean we
58:08knew that from the moment we saw chat
58:11GPT. Of course this is going to become a
58:13big issue. And and you you saw that even
58:16in I I believe it was the beginning of
58:192024. It was it was the beginning of of
58:22of that time when a lot of big voices on
58:25X were like look like look at what I'm
58:27doing. And then a few weeks or no, it
58:30was then it was like a a week or two
58:32later. Oh my god, like every property in
58:35my Google Search Console has been hit.
58:37Google's been rooting through my GSC.
58:39Everything's gone.
58:41>> Um [snorts]
58:42and and to be fair, when that happened
58:45then, Google was going after the voices
58:47that were publicly sharing it.
58:49>> Uh but but now Google has huristics to
58:52figure out, is this a scaled content
58:55site? And Google's gotten pretty good at
58:58it.
58:59>> Did I tell you about the lawyer that was
59:00doing all the um the accident pages like
59:02for all the I didn't tell you this one?
59:04Okay. No.
59:05>> So, this is one I was looking at
59:06recently. They got hit I believe in May
59:08of this year. Like just completely wiped
59:10out. Like they don't rank anywhere for
59:12anything. Um and uh they had I actually
59:16um went back to their site map to see
59:17how many pages they were creating in
59:19which months and how like how much
59:21content they were putting out. And they
59:22were basically creating pages about um
59:25like anytime there was a car accident,
59:26they would talk about it like it's news,
59:28you know? So like somebody gets in a car
59:30accident, they would just like reproduce
59:32the news on their website. Um which I
59:34can tell you I had
59:36>> smart.
59:37>> Yeah. I had one or two clients try this.
59:38Didn't work for them. Like they're in
59:40the same boat. Uh they wanted to do this
59:42as well. And I'm like, yeah, this is the
59:43type of stuff you have to avoid because
59:45not only is it outside of your topical
59:47authority, like you shouldn't be
59:48publishing news information if you're a
59:50lawyer. Like that's confusing.
59:52Everything that they're competing with
59:53in the search results are new sites, so
59:55not other um businesses, right? But they
59:58this guy back in 2024, I believe it was,
1:00:01he put out like 2,000 in one month and
1:00:04was totally fine. Totally fine until
1:00:06this year. Like he's been doing this for
1:00:08like five or six years. So it's been
1:00:11working so well.
1:00:12>> Wait, wait. So he's been putting up
1:00:132,000 pages a month for five or six
1:00:15years.
1:00:16>> At first it was like 60, 70, whatever.
1:00:18Like it was like a smaller number. And
1:00:20then I was looking over the timeline and
1:00:21on like December of 2024 he put out like
1:00:24like 2,000 in one month and then after
1:00:25that it was like in the hundreds per
1:00:27month. And um so he's just been
1:00:29continually doing
1:00:30>> traffic before he got hit.
1:00:31>> Oh high. Like that's what I'm saying.
1:00:33He's been doing this for like it's not a
1:00:34new thing. He didn't start doing this
1:00:37recently and I think that's important.
1:00:39>> Wait, how many years was he getting away
1:00:40with this for?
1:00:41>> Like at least five. I have I'd have to
1:00:43look up the chart.
1:00:43>> So So let me let me ask you this. Was do
1:00:46you think for him it was worth it? Uh, I
1:00:49don't know.
1:00:50>> Five years getting away with that.
1:00:51>> Okay. But his domain no longer ranks
1:00:53anywhere. So, I don't know. I think it
1:00:55would depend.
1:00:55>> He'll get a new domain. If I have five
1:00:57years of that crazy traffic.
1:00:59>> Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough.
1:01:01>> He'll get a new domain, use that money,
1:01:02pay some good link builders, like
1:01:05>> Yeah. This is where I'm like it it um so
1:01:08I don't know what the cost is to the
1:01:10business because if I'm thinking again
1:01:11if it's a real business let's say that
1:01:12domain is advertised
1:01:14>> elsewhere like and you've got to own
1:01:16your business cards and your billboards
1:01:18and like whatever um then maybe here
1:01:20okay I've got the chart up sorry let me
1:01:22actually give you the real numbers cuz I
1:01:23want to like okay so he's been doing it
1:01:24since 2018.
1:01:25>> Oh my gosh.
1:01:26>> Um and uh hold on I think 2022 was when
1:01:31like it kind of jumped quite a bit. So
1:01:33he was publishing and to be clear not
1:01:35every single one of these numbers was an
1:01:37accident page but like the majority of
1:01:38them were. I didn't go through like I
1:01:40went through his site map to see like
1:01:41obviously he's got other pages on his
1:01:43site.
1:01:43>> A lot of it is top of funnel garbage is
1:01:45where
1:01:45>> yeah most of these pages were about a
1:01:48specific car accident that happened.
1:01:50>> Um and he was
1:01:51>> he could he could relate them because if
1:01:52it bleeds it leads and he could relate
1:01:54it to his practice,
1:01:56>> right? Because he deals with car
1:01:57accidents. But
1:01:58>> it's like you're not a news site first
1:02:00of all. But he went in 2022 was when the
1:02:03volume upped and it started getting to
1:02:04the hundreds for the most part. And then
1:02:072024 was when he had 2,000 publish in
1:02:09one month. Kept going, kept going, kept
1:02:11going. And like I mean 2026 in January,
1:02:14he published 775 pages on his website.
1:02:17Uh then 725 the next month. And like
1:02:19everything was smooth sailing until May.
1:02:21>> I Joy, I want that. I want that sweet
1:02:24click data. I want to know I want to
1:02:25know how how much traffic he's getting.
1:02:28>> So Oh my gosh, the numbers. Okay, hold
1:02:30on. Let me actually see if I can chart
1:02:31this out in HFS and I'll tell you. Uh,
1:02:33give me a sec.
1:02:34>> You can cut this. You can cut this out,
1:02:35right?
1:02:36>> I can I can cut anything out. Um,
1:02:39[laughter] yeah. Yeah. But um I'm I'm c
1:02:41cuz like
1:02:43there's a level where it's like
1:02:46>> now we're debating. I don't think that
1:02:48this guy knew he was going to have his
1:02:50domain hit. So I'm like this is one of
1:02:52those things where I'm like take if
1:02:54you're thinking about doing this
1:02:54strategy and I also don't know if you'd
1:02:57get away with it for five years now. I
1:02:58don't think you would. So if you if you
1:03:01want to try this, this is what we but
1:03:02this is what we say. If you want to try
1:03:03this, try it on a different domain and
1:03:06and have that not be connected to your
1:03:09primary GSC to your primary Google
1:03:11search console.
1:03:12>> Okay, so how much do you tr like trust
1:03:13traffic numbers in uh AHFS? Hold on.
1:03:17>> Enough for enough for for this episode.
1:03:19>> Okay, at at peak uh back in March of
1:03:23this year, it's listing 6,900. Uh that's
1:03:26that's high for a law firm, I would say.
1:03:29Uh back in 2024, well, again, this is it
1:03:32depends on what kind of site you're
1:03:33looking at. It's that's a good number
1:03:35for a law firm. Um 30,000 was December
1:03:382024. So, it's gone up quite a bit um
1:03:41since then. And then it crashed. You
1:03:44know what? I think I can show you this
1:03:46without
1:03:47>> I don't think it was worth it.
1:03:49>> Without Did you want to see the I can
1:03:50screen share and show it to you?
1:03:52>> Yeah, screen share. Let's see.
1:03:53>> It's not showing the domain, which I
1:03:54really really don't want.
1:03:55>> Yeah. Yeah. Let's Let's do it.
1:03:56>> Hold on. Hold on.
1:03:57>> You can just click the screen share
1:03:58button.
1:03:59>> I'll make a time stamp.
1:04:01>> All right. Here we go.
1:04:02>> So that's the that's the graph here. So
1:04:06>> last five years. Look at that. And wait.
1:04:08So uh Okay. Wait. Can you go?
1:04:13This is not worth it.
1:04:15>> He was He's dumb.
1:04:18>> Or is SEO's dumb? I don't know.
1:04:20>> Yeah, he's a dummy. Yeah, it's I mean
1:04:23>> because you're saying that a lot of it
1:04:24is top offunnel traffic, too.
1:04:26>> Yeah, this this one is Well, no. Yeah,
1:04:28it's definitely not um like people are
1:04:30looking for specific. A lot of it's uh
1:04:33because I've seen sites that have done
1:04:34this. I've seen some of the uh that
1:04:36>> honestly it's one of the dumbest things
1:04:38that you could do because you could
1:04:39spend this the the last you said he's
1:04:41been doing this since 2018. He could
1:04:44spend uh the last 8 years doing proper
1:04:48SEO and he'd be way further if he wasn't
1:04:51investing his time into these like
1:04:55stupid little shortcuts.
1:04:57>> Yeah. Let me let me show you the graph.
1:04:59This is his um I can screen share this
1:05:01as well and show this to you. Let me
1:05:02just move you over to the other screen
1:05:04and I'll screen share. So here's the
1:05:06chart.
1:05:08>> This [snorts] is number of pages. This
1:05:10is the number of pages he was publishing
1:05:11by month by year.
1:05:15This guy's a dummy.
1:05:17>> And this is the type of content.
1:05:19>> I'm sorry. I'm sorry to him.
1:05:20>> This is this is like
1:05:22>> passenger passenger ejected in serious
1:05:25rollover crash on I435 in Kansas City.
1:05:29And it's it's just like a news article.
1:05:31>> I have a list of lawyers that are doing
1:05:34this though. Um like it's it's not
1:05:37something that a lot of them do, but
1:05:39definitely um one that I've seen
1:05:40multiple times. Um, I don't know how
1:05:43common it is. I couldn't tell you how
1:05:44many lawyers do this, but it was like,
1:05:45oh yeah, this really great way to get
1:05:48content out there that would bring in
1:05:49traffic, lots and lots of traffic, and
1:05:51you probably convert some of it. Um, but
1:05:53yeah, it's not working so well anymore.
1:05:56>> Joy, is is so is position number one on
1:06:00Google dead?
1:06:01>> Yes.
1:06:02>> Okay. And
1:06:04>> I'll stand behind that statement.
1:06:05>> Okay. So, what should people what should
1:06:07people do going forward? Let's talk
1:06:09about We've been talking a lot about
1:06:10what doesn't work. Let's end the episode
1:06:12with things that SEOs should do that
1:06:15works that they should focus on, invest
1:06:17time in, invest money in.
1:06:20>> Yes. So, anything that will help build
1:06:22your brand, right? So, I think
1:06:23traditional marketing has has increased
1:06:26substantially to helping SEO efforts.
1:06:28So, I think um I've mentioned this
1:06:30before in your show, Edward, winning
1:06:31awards is something that's a new tactic
1:06:34that we um suggest clients do all the
1:06:37time now that I didn't used to suggest a
1:06:38year ago. um making sure that the way
1:06:41that you're
1:06:41>> making up awards. No, no, no. I'm
1:06:43joking. But not really. But not really.
1:06:45I mean, people are doing it and it's
1:06:47working and it's and it's hard and it's
1:06:49and it's hard to it's hard to detect.
1:06:53>> Like
1:06:56big people who have been on this show
1:06:57many times are I'm sure you've seen it
1:07:00on X. I don't I'm not going to call them
1:07:01out, but like I'm sure you know what I'm
1:07:04talking about.
1:07:04>> I know what you're I know exactly what
1:07:06you're talking about. No, less people
1:07:07who do this too. I I wouldn't do it, but
1:07:09again, depends on the level of brand. If
1:07:10you pitch this to a um large brand,
1:07:13they'd probably laugh at you. So, I
1:07:14>> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Abs.
1:07:16And if and if and if you're a large
1:07:18brand, you probably won real awards and
1:07:20you don't need to do this.
1:07:21>> Yeah. I think
1:07:22>> again,
1:07:24if there's an extremely niche keyword
1:07:26and it's like, well, we don't have any
1:07:28awards that are related to that keyword.
1:07:30It's like, [laughter]
1:07:33>> I don't know. Um, I would uh definitely
1:07:36prioritize
1:07:38um your your website like good
1:07:39oldfashioned SEO is actually I think
1:07:41again working even better. It it matters
1:07:43more for the AI we're seeing on Google
1:07:46um than it did for organic. So I think
1:07:49that's good. Um I think reviews still
1:07:51despite um the variances of how much
1:07:53they matter matter a lot. Also you
1:07:56probably want to get reviews on a few
1:07:57other sites now too. That's another
1:07:59thing that I think is slightly different
1:08:01than before. social media is becoming
1:08:04more of a must. Um, so we're current I'm
1:08:06doing actually a lot of testing on that
1:08:07too, like just trying to figure out like
1:08:09what exactly on social media um,
1:08:13helps with SEO and helps with AI. Had
1:08:16our first successful like Reddit post
1:08:17that we did for a client that actually
1:08:19got traction where like we try to get
1:08:21ones that get like lots of views and
1:08:22clicks. It's really hard to do for
1:08:23another business. Um, so it's hard, but
1:08:27I think again like the harder something
1:08:29is, the more likely it's going to stick
1:08:32long term and the more likely it's going
1:08:34to have value that's not going to die
1:08:35off. Um, and when it comes to content, I
1:08:38would say you want content around
1:08:39anything with numbers. So numbers are
1:08:42kind of the things that we're pushing,
1:08:43things like, you know, statistics, uh,
1:08:46cost data, anything that's like factual
1:08:49stuff. Uh, Google loves that. And I
1:08:51think it's more important than ever to
1:08:52be super detailed, like really really
1:08:55detailed about everything that you did
1:08:56for your customers. Uh like down to the
1:08:59color of their cabinets, down to like
1:09:02how long it took you to do something, um
1:09:05what type of business they are, what
1:09:07type of homeowner they are, uh where
1:09:09they live, uh you know, without giving
1:09:11away any private information, but like
1:09:13um again, if queries are starting to get
1:09:15longer, if that's the trend we're
1:09:16heading towards, then you need to
1:09:17actually have more detail on your
1:09:19website. So, I haven't changed much when
1:09:23it comes to like our playbook for
1:09:24on-site in the last year. It's still as
1:09:27effective as ever.
1:09:28>> Real photos or AI photos?
1:09:30>> I'm sticking with real for now. I
1:09:32haven't done an AI photo test in a
1:09:34while, but um I don't think with phones
1:09:36these days, it's actually that hard to
1:09:38get a photo. You know, everybody's
1:09:39phones takes pretty high quality photos
1:09:41these days. Um so, the the barrier to
1:09:43entry isn't what it used to be. Um so,
1:09:45we don't have an issue getting photos
1:09:46like I would have said something
1:09:48different probably five or 10 years ago.
1:09:50What what type of keywords are you
1:09:51targeting?
1:09:53>> Yeah, so I I agree with you, Edward. I
1:09:54think thatformational keywords as a
1:09:56traffic source are starting to die. I
1:09:58mean, the good news is I have like most
1:10:01of our clients, if you looked at their
1:10:03GSSE for the last 16 months, traffic is
1:10:05down. Most of them, like I'm not going
1:10:06to sit here and pretend that that trend
1:10:08didn't hit the businesses we work with.
1:10:10It did. Mostly informational. Like
1:10:12almost all of the traffic decline was um
1:10:14for keywords that AI overviews are just
1:10:17like just taking it all, right? Um, so,
1:10:20uh, the good news is I haven't talked to
1:10:22a client that was devastated by that or
1:10:25even most of them didn't even feel it
1:10:27like at all with their bottom line. So,
1:10:29it's like fine.
1:10:32Goes to show you that like that never
1:10:33should have been the focus anyway.
1:10:35>> Yeah.
1:10:35>> Um,
1:10:36>> so yeah, I I definitely agree with like
1:10:38your entire approach like longtail
1:10:40keywords are are the way to go. Trying
1:10:42to find like the very specific
1:10:43>> Not even just long long tail. doesn't
1:10:45even sorry to interrupt cuz a lot of
1:10:46people think that I'm only after long
1:10:48tail cuz there's plenty of there's
1:10:49plenty of high intent keywords that are
1:10:51two words.
1:10:52>> Yes. Yes, you're right. You're right. Um
1:10:54like a big one for local is like brands.
1:10:57Um so you know for example uh if you're
1:10:59like a garage door company like the
1:11:01brands of garage doors you sell or the
1:11:03specific like model names or things like
1:11:05that is like the level of detail you
1:11:07need. Um, so a lot of people just don't
1:11:10go deep enough with the descriptive um,
1:11:13ways that they're like listing their
1:11:15content and stuff. So content I think is
1:11:16better than ever. Uh, link building has
1:11:18been a bit of a struggle in the sense of
1:11:20like I think volume of links is
1:11:22definitely not something I have
1:11:25previously gone after, still wouldn't go
1:11:27after, but uh, usually in local you
1:11:29don't need a ton of links. So it's it's
1:11:32not about quantity.
1:11:33>> Love it.
1:11:33>> Um, yeah. And I think local link
1:11:36building is like the kind of big thing
1:11:37that we are focusing on the most lately.
1:11:40Um so like uh getting links from niche
1:11:44sites that only exist in your particular
1:11:46industry or sites that are like specific
1:11:48to your geo. So you know if you're in
1:11:50Seattle there's like a bunch of
1:11:51different Seattle specific sites and
1:11:53things. Um again I think that importance
1:11:55has gone up um in the last few years not
1:11:57down.
1:11:59>> This was a lot of fun.
1:12:01>> Yes. [clears throat] Thanks for having
1:12:02me.
1:12:02>> This was a good episode.
1:12:04I was making jokes. I'm actually um I
1:12:06don't know if you can tell I'm kind of
1:12:07sick. I didn't tell you at the beginning
1:12:08of the episode. Like I have a I'm like
1:12:11crazy jetlagged, have a crazy sore
1:12:13throat and uh I had so much fun in this
1:12:17episode and so like
1:12:18>> you seem a little low energy, but like
1:12:20>> Oh yeah, I'm super low energy. I'm like
1:12:22super I'm super tired, super low energy,
1:12:24but but honestly this episode energized
1:12:28me,
1:12:28>> reinvigorated breathed life into me.
1:12:31Joy,
1:12:31>> I know. I was trying not to be too
1:12:33negative. I know I do that a lot because
1:12:34I I study the things that fail, but I'm
1:12:36like, "No, no, we have like plenty of
1:12:37things that still work." Um, it's just
1:12:39more new things that are failing than
1:12:41things like the new stuff that's
1:12:43working. Like, the stuff that's working,
1:12:45a lot of it is the same stuff that we've
1:12:47been doing all along. Um, however, the
1:12:49the risky things, those are changing
1:12:51like faster than they used to.
1:12:55>> Yeah. I I you know I'm I'm kind of a fan
1:12:57of some risky things, but you really
1:13:00[clears throat] got to think hard about
1:13:02like could Google detect this? And I I
1:13:05think a lot of people they they do this
1:13:07these risky tactics without realizing
1:13:09Google has all the data at its disposal.
1:13:12And yeah,
1:13:14>> I I was getting there and then I've
1:13:16completely reversed. Like I was starting
1:13:17to get to the point where I was like,
1:13:18"Oh, like screw Google. Like don't
1:13:20listen to what they say." and like, you
1:13:22know, as long as it's not something
1:13:23you're going to get nailed for
1:13:25currently.
1:13:25>> Oh, I I think people should absolutely
1:13:27listen to what Google says.
1:13:28>> Well, okay. Yeah. With with a grain of
1:13:30salt. But I would I think where I where
1:13:32I've changed my thinking on risk is I
1:13:34used to kind of measure it based on what
1:13:35I was currently seeing. Now I'm like,
1:13:37what's going to happen a year from now?
1:13:38Like CTR manipulation, for example. I
1:13:40don't think Google's currently really
1:13:41dinging it much at all. So, it's like
1:13:43really working right now. I can't really
1:13:45see that they're like actively
1:13:46penalizing sites that are doing it. Like
1:13:48it's one of those things that you do it
1:13:50and it the worst case scenarios doesn't
1:13:51work. So I used to look at stuff like
1:13:53that like a couple years ago and say
1:13:54like why not? Now I'm taking a different
1:13:56approach cuz I'm like well what if they
1:13:57start targeting it next year and then
1:13:59>> well that's that's well that's something
1:14:01that I wouldn't do because that's
1:14:02something that they couldn't they they
1:14:04can detect that's something that they
1:14:06that they can detect but inauthentic
1:14:08mentions. So like um you know there you
1:14:12see you see an article that is getting
1:14:14cited recommending like let's say let's
1:14:17say you're like um give me a local
1:14:20keyword.
1:14:21>> Okay. Sure. Let's do plumber Dallas.
1:14:23>> Plumber Dallas. All right. So you're
1:14:24you're going to an NLM and you're like
1:14:27yeah I my pipes burst. Um I'm in Dallas.
1:14:29I need a plumber. and and you see just
1:14:33across a range of prompts, it's this
1:14:35like one article or two articles that
1:14:37keep on getting cited and then you
1:14:40contact them and you're like, I'll give
1:14:41you x amount of money if you put us if
1:14:43you recommend us in your article and and
1:14:45and then now you're the one who's
1:14:47getting recommended by the LLMs because
1:14:49of that. That's against Google's rules.
1:14:52>> But like are they going to be able to
1:14:54detect that? No.
1:14:56>> No way. I think they Okay, so this is
1:14:58where
1:14:59>> they will be able to detect it depending
1:15:00on the site and how much they do it.
1:15:02Okay, so the biggest way that I've seen
1:15:04>> if you do if you do anything too much
1:15:06then it's okay. Sorry,
1:15:07>> but it's not you, it's the site that
1:15:08matters, right? Like it's like will they
1:15:10catch the site and then devalue all the
1:15:12the the places that that site is linking
1:15:14to. Depends on what the site does,
1:15:16right? So I think like Google the way
1:15:18that they track link networks, it's not
1:15:19like the site's buying the links
1:15:20necessarily. I think they're they look
1:15:21at the patterns of the sites selling the
1:15:23links and then if you're on that site,
1:15:24they know you bought the links. And it's
1:15:27not actually that hard. Like I started
1:15:28putting in sites, look at their outgoing
1:15:30anchors. You want to know if a a site is
1:15:32selling links, look at the go outgoing
1:15:34anchor text. It's telling if you see
1:15:36casinos and personal injury lawyers,
1:15:38they're selling links.
1:15:39>> Yeah, sure. Okay. [laughter] But
1:15:44yeah, but first of all, is that is that
1:15:46going to hurt your business? Maybe you
1:15:47lost like a couple hundred bucks by
1:15:49buying this, but in the meantime, like
1:15:51for as long as it worked, you got you
1:15:54probably made some sales cuz you you're
1:15:57getting recommended.
1:15:58>> Like most things, if you don't do it at
1:15:59scale, you'll probably won't get caught,
1:16:01right? Like it's like what Google is
1:16:02targeting is not a specific tactic. It's
1:16:04scale. They're targeting links at scale,
1:16:06link building tactics at scale, content
1:16:08at scale. Like it doesn't matter if it's
1:16:10AI or not. If you scale, like I don't
1:16:12think AI wrote half those articles I was
1:16:14talking about. AI wasn't even a thing
1:16:15back in 2018. So it's like, no, these
1:16:17were probably handwritten. Doesn't
1:16:19matter.
1:16:20>> Can you can you can you scale something,
1:16:24but they're handwritten and you you're
1:16:28continually building your authority and
1:16:30then it's all right
1:16:32>> cuz I'm talking about I'm talking about
1:16:34like a major company. Let's talk about
1:16:35like a a Red Bull. And Red Red Bull like
1:16:37Red Bull I looked at Red Bull's SEO. Um
1:16:40[snorts] they have major authority
1:16:42because you know they're sponsoring the
1:16:43biggest events on the planet. They're
1:16:44getting the best links. it like what
1:16:46they are doing. They're getting the best
1:16:48links. Uh but they don't really know. It
1:16:50seems like from what I was looking the
1:16:52when I was briefly looking at their SEO,
1:16:54it it it looks like they don't really
1:16:56know what they're doing when it comes to
1:16:57targeting keywords. So, let's say they
1:16:58just started to go hard targeting
1:17:00keywords and they had like an awesome
1:17:03SEO writer, an awesome content writer,
1:17:05and they're they're targeting all these
1:17:07like high intent keywords in their
1:17:08niche. They could probably put up a ton
1:17:11of pages. And I'm not going to suggest
1:17:13that they should put up pages really
1:17:15fast, like they should be putting up
1:17:16like 10 a day, but they might even be
1:17:18able to with that with that amount of
1:17:20authority. And if the pages are
1:17:22satisfying intent,
1:17:25>> actually, I don't see. Yeah.
1:17:26>> The way I imagine Google looking at it
1:17:28is they're they're really trying to
1:17:29answer the question, does this page only
1:17:30exist for SEO? Right? I'm sure they've
1:17:32got ways to tell that, but um any
1:17:34business I've looked at
1:17:36>> that's scaled a specific thing. So, for
1:17:39example, if you scale a bunch of best
1:17:41posts and you say you're the best roofer
1:17:43in 15 different cities, you are way more
1:17:46likely to get caught than if you do it
1:17:48on one. Um, so anytime that I think what
1:17:51Google looks at for scale is like
1:17:52similarities in URL structure,
1:17:54similarities in title tags, similarities
1:17:56in um things like that. If you're like
1:17:58Trip Adviser, this isn't a problem
1:18:00because of the type of site you are. So
1:18:02Google understands that if you're Trip
1:18:03Advisor, Yelp, whatever, you're going to
1:18:05have like millions of pages that are
1:18:07going to have the same format, and
1:18:08that's totally fine. But if you're a
1:18:09small business, they have like a
1:18:10different criteria. If you're Red Bull,
1:18:13I would say, and you start scaling the
1:18:15same stuff, just insert different color,
1:18:18insert different whatever, then you're
1:18:19probably going to get caught. Um, but I
1:18:22don't think
1:18:22>> that's that's against Google's
1:18:23guidelines. That's against Google's
1:18:24guidelines, too.
1:18:25>> But I don't think just adding more
1:18:26content is going to do anything bad.
1:18:28Like if the content's all different and
1:18:31not the same, then as long as it's like
1:18:34good, and I know that's like so
1:18:36subjective, what's good content? As long
1:18:38as it's stuff that answers users
1:18:40questions that Google doesn't have 5
1:18:41million copies of already, then it
1:18:43should rank. If it's like really not
1:18:46contributing anything um to the
1:18:48worldwide web, which is the majority of
1:18:50pages that get published, then uh yeah,
1:18:53I don't think you should be doing it at
1:18:54scale. But it's it's a very nuanced
1:18:55question.
1:18:57Uh, did you see I I don't know if you
1:18:59did, but so David Quaid and I had had
1:19:00this episode. Can you launch a
1:19:02100,000page website and not get and not
1:19:05get penalized?
1:19:06>> What did he say?
1:19:07>> Uh, he said it's hard. I mean, everyone
1:19:10everyone agrees that it's hard. I made
1:19:11the argument that you that you can do
1:19:13it. Like if if you are Microsoft and you
1:19:17have all this interesting data or you
1:19:19know what even if you're not Microsoft
1:19:21if you have all this really interesting
1:19:23data and you just productize it and you
1:19:26turn it into a database that anybody can
1:19:28access and you you make announcements
1:19:31for it and people and it's actually good
1:19:33data and it's going viral and people are
1:19:34sharing it. I I think you'll be fine. I
1:19:38think I think because it's this is novel
1:19:40data. It's proprietary novel data that's
1:19:44that's put online in an interesting way
1:19:47that people actually like and they're
1:19:49sharing. And actually I I don't see why
1:19:52a website like that would get hit. Now
1:19:55the problem is like like you were saying
1:19:57a lot of these a lot of people when they
1:19:59try to do this they're they're just
1:20:01going and scraping and stitching
1:20:03together other people's content.
1:20:05>> Mhm.
1:20:05>> And there's nothing new on it.
1:20:07>> Yeah.
1:20:07>> That's that's the problem. That's why I
1:20:09think Reddit does so well because
1:20:10everything that gets posted on Reddit is
1:20:11some new opinion, some new thing for the
1:20:13most part. Not saying Reddit's got its
1:20:15own problems, but like it's like user
1:20:16experiences, things that come out that
1:20:18are new. Um, yeah, I just uh I don't
1:20:21know. I try not to have opinions on
1:20:22things that I haven't tested or uh I've
1:20:25never launched a site that large. Um, so
1:20:28I have no idea what would happen um from
1:20:30doing it, but I can't imagine I ever
1:20:32would have a client want to do that, so
1:20:33I'll probably never have to worry about
1:20:35it. No, I I I did it because um a fan
1:20:38had had messaged me and was like, "Can
1:20:40you and David do an episode on this?"
1:20:42Because me and my friends, we we keep
1:20:44trying to launch um these these sites
1:20:47with like tens of thousands of pages and
1:20:49it's just not working. And and he and
1:20:50and he wanted to know, is there a way to
1:20:53do this?
1:20:54>> And uh and and so I looked at the site
1:20:57and it was like a claude site. It looked
1:20:59like a claude site and the information
1:21:02didn't seem to be novel or proprietary
1:21:04at all. Yeah, there's a site I'm
1:21:07tracking. It's on my predicted to crash
1:21:08list that's completely [laughter]
1:21:11completely AI generated. Yeah. Um it's
1:21:15uh it's completely AI generated. It's um
1:21:19in the legal niche ranking very well,
1:21:22but I noticed they have tons of links.
1:21:25Like all of a sudden they got all these
1:21:27links from lawyers who probably don't
1:21:28know they're linking to it would be my
1:21:30assumption.
1:21:31>> Oh, I wonder how they got those links.
1:21:33>> I have theories. But anyways, yeah, so
1:21:35that's uh like that's why they're
1:21:37ranking though. I don't think if you
1:21:39launched a site like that without
1:21:40without the links piece, it would be
1:21:42ranking. And it's like they're they're
1:21:43good links. Like they're links from law
1:21:45firms referencing this site and their
1:21:47content. But the content is completely a
1:21:49thousand.
1:21:50>> Yeah. The links the links can only get
1:21:51you so far because eventually the
1:21:53behavioral signals will tip them over
1:21:55and they're going to get that mount AI
1:21:56pattern.
1:21:57>> Yeah. And it's interesting because it's
1:21:58a it's a category that I'm like maybe
1:22:00it's an okay thing for it to be all AI.
1:22:02I don't know how it's going to go and if
1:22:04people are going to click on it or stay
1:22:06on it, but it's it's an interesting
1:22:08>> Let me ask you this. If Forbes put out
1:22:11scaled AI content,
1:22:13>> would Forbes get hit?
1:22:14>> Yes. Like I think so. I mean, they
1:22:16they've already got history here, right?
1:22:18Like
1:22:18>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:22:19>> So Forbes used to be everywhere a few
1:22:20years ago for like tons of local queries
1:22:23and they had those top best pages that,
1:22:25you know, Lars outed them. So,
1:22:28>> are there are there any websites that
1:22:29you think could get away with scaled AI
1:22:32content?
1:22:34>> Um, I think if you were like Yelp, for
1:22:36example, and you wanted to use AI for
1:22:38like descriptions on all your pages,
1:22:40that's fine. Like, I can't imagine that
1:22:42being bad. Um, because I don't think
1:22:44>> they're using but they're doing that
1:22:46they're doing that with their own
1:22:47proprietary data, right?
1:22:49>> Yeah. Like, so I, you know, I think
1:22:50there's lots of uses. Like, if I was an
1:22:52ecom site and I need a description for
1:22:535,000 different pairs of shoes, um, I
1:22:56don't think it matters if AI, you know,
1:22:59comes up with descriptions for 5,000
1:23:00different pairs of shoes. Um, so it like
1:23:03it's a lot of context is needed, right?
1:23:05Like I don't think AI content is bad at
1:23:07all. Um, I think AI content detecting
1:23:09tools and things like I don't know. Um,
1:23:12I don't I don't find them super useful
1:23:14>> unless unless the ecom site that content
1:23:17was above the fold and it read like AI
1:23:20and people didn't trust the pages and
1:23:23like they see the shoes but they look at
1:23:25the content and they're like, "Uh, yeah,
1:23:27let me just find one that looks more
1:23:29real."
1:23:30>> I mean, I don't know. I don't know if
1:23:31the average user even cares, right? I
1:23:33don't know. I just want to know what the
1:23:34shoe is. I don't care if AI wrote it.
1:23:37There's definitely things that I would
1:23:38turn me off if I knew AI was writing it.
1:23:40It it it definitely on social posts is
1:23:42starting to irritate me like crazy. Like
1:23:45LinkedIn has become such a cesspool of
1:23:46AI content that I don't even want to go
1:23:48there anymore. Um
1:23:50>> that's what I'm saying though. That's
1:23:51what I'm saying though. There there's
1:23:52people who are who really get turned off
1:23:54by by the m dashes and the verbose
1:23:57writing, the wordy writing, uh the the
1:24:01clear pattern patterns. And it's like,
1:24:04do you think I'm stupid? Like when I see
1:24:06people post on LinkedIn these like
1:24:07garbage AI posts, it's like, do you
1:24:09think we're stupid?
1:24:10>> Do you think we're stupid?
1:24:12>> It's like it's offensive.
1:24:14>> LinkedIn added a thing where you can
1:24:15report something as AI slop. I'm like,
1:24:17that's the best feature ever. I like
1:24:19doing that.
1:24:20>> I think we I get more AI content
1:24:23comments, sorry, on my LinkedIn posts
1:24:25than real ones. Like, it's just
1:24:26>> Oh, it's it's Oh, me too. I get a I
1:24:29don't know if I get more. I mean, I get
1:24:30a lot. I get a lot. It's crazy and it's
1:24:32super annoying. Like, do people really
1:24:34think we want to talk to bots? Like, is
1:24:36that what social media has become? Like,
1:24:37no thank you. I'm out.
1:24:38>> I made this episode about um this forum.
1:24:41It's called Wind Wind Windows forum.
1:24:43This is insane. So, they went to the SEO
1:24:45subreddit and and started complaining
1:24:47that they got hit by by Google. They got
1:24:49penalized by Google and that they didn't
1:24:51deserve it. And they're like, "Yeah, we
1:24:53we're really not using that much AI
1:24:55content, and we pruned all the AI
1:24:57content. We removed it." And you look at
1:24:59the site, they didn't remove it. They
1:25:00used a ton of AI content. And not only
1:25:02that, they put in bots into their forum
1:25:06that were clear bots labeled as bots
1:25:08that were responding to their users,
1:25:11their to their human users in human
1:25:13sounding ways. So it like you would be
1:25:16like um you would say, "Yeah, um I
1:25:20really like this thing about Windows.
1:25:22What does everybody else think?" And
1:25:23then a bot would come in that would look
1:25:25like a bot that would say it's a bot and
1:25:27be like, you know, that's a really
1:25:28interesting insight that you have. Wow,
1:25:30you're so it's so cool that you and it's
1:25:32like you [laughter] you're not going on
1:25:34a forum to get kudos from bots and and
1:25:38and they couldn't figure out why they
1:25:40were why they were Yeah, people don't
1:25:42people don't want that.
1:25:44>> Human humans want things. They want
1:25:46coupons. You want something that that
1:25:47humans are going to respond well to, put
1:25:49out a coupon. Like like this is where
1:25:51I'm like people just are focusing on
1:25:52stuff that's trendy. I don't know about
1:25:54you, but like the amount of businesses
1:25:56that are willing to throw money at AI
1:25:58strategies, it's insane. Like, it's
1:26:00actually insane. They're willing.
1:26:02>> And I'm like, this makes no actual sense
1:26:04to me. I'm like, your SEO budget is
1:26:07this, your AI budget is this. And I'm
1:26:09like, an AI traffic currently is 2% of
1:26:12Google like for our clients. I should
1:26:14clarify. nature it's a nature it's a
1:26:16nature of of like uh business school
1:26:18people who were working at these
1:26:19companies like um I was sharing this I
1:26:21was sharing this actually uh with
1:26:23somebody yesterday during the initial
1:26:26coin offering so there were these things
1:26:28called initial coin offering ICOs where
1:26:30people could basically raise a bunch of
1:26:32money by making a token on the
1:26:34blockchain and this was going really
1:26:36viral in 2017 2018 and just like huge
1:26:40amounts of money were being raised from
1:26:42nowhere and then like It was it was
1:26:45crazy. But so this is like the hype
1:26:47around this was so insane that Long
1:26:51Island Iced Tea Company or corporation
1:26:54rebranded themselves and they're still
1:26:56rebranded to this. It was in 2017. They
1:26:59changed their name to Long Island
1:27:02Blockchain Corp. No, Long Blockchain
1:27:04Corp. It was just Long Blockchain Corp.
1:27:06And they did this to capitalize on the
1:27:09blockchain trend. And then they never
1:27:10did anything with it because they got
1:27:12they got you can literally go look
1:27:15Google Long Blockchain Corp and you will
1:27:17see the Wikipedia post saying Long
1:27:20Blockchain Corp. formerly Long Island
1:27:22ICT Company and it's it's that's that's
1:27:25what these companies that's what that's
1:27:27what that's human nature. They get
1:27:29swiped up they get swept up in the hype.
1:27:31>> I'm just like it's a waste of your
1:27:33money. Like put your money where you're
1:27:34going to make money.
1:27:35>> It's a waste. It's put your money where
1:27:36you're going to make money. I I can tell
1:27:38you we are actually sitting down um I
1:27:40was sitting down with one of my VPs
1:27:42recently and we were like, "Okay, which
1:27:43social platform should we really go in
1:27:45on next because we went really hard in
1:27:47on YouTube and it's really paid off. So,
1:27:50uh lots and lots and lots of time and
1:27:52effort that we have spent on YouTube."
1:27:53Um but it's it's a huge lead source for
1:27:56my company. So, we were like, "Okay,
1:27:57what what social platform should we try
1:27:58next?" And I'm like, "They're all big
1:28:00question marks for me. I actually don't
1:28:01know which ones will deliver like good
1:28:05solid like leads for my business." And
1:28:06then I'm like, you know what I do know
1:28:09delivers lots of leads for our business
1:28:10is SEO. I'm like, we should just go hard
1:28:13on SEO for Sterling Sky this year. Let's
1:28:16do that. That's where my brain went
1:28:17because I'm just like, pick the lead
1:28:18source that you already know works. Put
1:28:20more money in that. Uh, which I will be
1:28:22honest, like we've really neglected SEO
1:28:25for our own brand, like bad. Um, so I'm
1:28:28like, no, I got to I got to actually do
1:28:30it because it works every time we do it.
1:28:31anytime I have like a team member
1:28:33optimize like one of our articles or or
1:28:35a page on our site like traffic goes up,
1:28:36leads go up, everything like it's very
1:28:38we we know
1:28:39>> and you have you have the brand
1:28:40recognition to increased clickthrough
1:28:42rates. Like it's super easy for you.
1:28:44>> Yeah, it was. I'm like why would I take
1:28:45a bet on something that I don't know
1:28:47when I already have this other revenue
1:28:49stream that I already know is producing
1:28:50well and just increase that. Like it's
1:28:53not difficult. It wasn't a difficult
1:28:55decision.
1:28:55>> Yeah. Amazing. All right, Joy, this was
1:28:58a lot of fun. Uh, I look forward to many
1:29:00more of these in the future. Thank you
1:29:02again for coming on.
1:29:03>> Pleasure to be here.
1:29:05>> This is episode 1,165
1:29:08of the podcast. 1,165
1:29:11days in a row doing this show. If you
1:29:14watch this on YouTube, thank you so much
1:29:15for watching. If you listened on Spotify
1:29:17or Apple Podcasts, thank you so much for
1:29:20listening and I will talk to you again
1:29:23tomorrow. By now.

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