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Political correctness: a force for good? A Munk Debate — Transcript

by Jordan B Peterson · 19,205 words · 2,848 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00[Music]
1:15[Music]
1:21brilliant minds even mediocre minds
1:24operate better under stimulus Canadian
1:28history is the Canadian and you can't
1:31take away someone's and Barack Obama has
1:35systematically rebuilt the trust of the
1:38world in our willingness to work through
1:41the Security Council and other three you
1:44must not talk to anybody in the world
1:46any of our allies whatever you want to
1:48call this system a mafia state a feudal
1:50empire it's a disaster for ordinary
1:53Russians
1:57[Music]
2:03brilliant minds even with the ochre
2:06minds
2:06operate better under stimulus Canadian
2:11is a Canadian Barack Obama has
2:17systematically rebuilt the trust of the
2:21world in our willingness to work through
2:23the Security Council and other three you
2:26must not talk to anybody in the world
2:28any of our allies it whatever you want
2:30to call this system a mafia state a
2:32feudal empire it's a disaster for
2:35ordinary Russians I think that's the
2:37kind of hypocritical argument that if I
2:38were Chinese that annoying but
2:40historically Chinese foreign policy can
2:44be described it's by Berrien management
2:47science and religion are not
2:49incompatible religion forces nice people
2:53to do unkind things our men obsolete a
2:55my conclusion to this question is no I
2:57won't let you be you show me the oil
3:01pretext I quoted them saying show me a
3:03free program how you can keep screaming
3:05out and it doesn't change the point we
3:08do not want sympathy we do not want pity
3:10we want opportunities it's an appalling
3:12slander to me to the Muslim religion I
3:17never said the word Muslim in my
3:19fulminating it was a Muslim free form a
3:22nation it is that that kind of restraint
3:25it is that kind of sober-minded sensible
3:28intelligent foreign policy that Obama
3:30represents so I guess what I'm telling
3:32you is he's sort of a closeted Canadian
3:34vote for him for God's sake
3:36[Applause]
3:43ladies and gentlemen welcome my name is
3:45Roger Griffith since my privilege to
3:48have the opportunity to moderate
3:50tonight's debates and to act as your
3:52organizer I want to start by welcoming
3:55the North American wide television
3:57audience tuning in right now across
4:00canada on CPAC Canada's Public Affairs
4:02Channel c-span across the continental
4:05United States and on CBC radio ideas a
4:09warm hello also to our online audience
4:12watching this debate over 6,000 streams
4:15active at this moment on Facebook live
4:18in Bloomberg comm and Munk debates calm
4:22it's great to have you as virtual
4:23participants in tonight's proceedings
4:26and hello to you the over 3,000 people
4:29who filled Roy Thompson Hall for yet
4:32another monk debate thank you for your
4:35support for more and better debate on
4:38the big issues of the day this debate
4:42marks the start of our tenth season and
4:44we begin this season missing someone who
4:47was vital to this debate series in every
4:50aspect it was his passion for ideas his
4:53love for debate that inspired our
4:55creation in 2008 and it was his energy
4:59his generosity and his drive that was so
5:02important in allowing us to really win
5:05international acclaim as one of the
5:07world's great debating series his
5:11philanthropy its legacy wow it's
5:13incredible last fall we all remember
5:15that hundred million dollar donation to
5:17cardiac health here in Toronto
5:20transforming the lives of tens of
5:22thousands of millions of Canadians to
5:25come
5:29we are all big fans and supporters of a
5:32terrific school for global affairs on
5:35the UFT campus represented here tonight
5:37by many students who are in its master's
5:39program congratulations to you and also
5:45a generous endowment last spring to this
5:47series that will allow us to organize
5:49many evenings like this for many more
5:52years to come
5:53now knowing our benefactor as we do the
5:58last thing he'd want is for us to mark
6:00his absence with a moment of silence
6:03that wasn't his style so let's instead
6:06celebrate a great Canadian a great life
6:09and a great legacy of the late Peter
6:15Munk Bravo Peter
6:44where to go Peter
6:51I I know he would have enjoyed that and
6:54I want to just thank Melanie
6:57Anthony Cheney for being here tonight to
7:00be part of Peters continuing positive
7:03impact on public debate in Canada thank
7:05you guys for being here tonight
7:10now knowing Peter as I did the first
7:13thing on his mind at this point in the
7:15debate would be right here stop talking
7:18get this debate underway get our
7:19debaters out here come on got to show on
7:22the road so we're gonna do that right
7:24now because we have a terrific debate
7:26lined up for you this evening so let's
7:29introduce first our pro team arguing for
7:33tonight's motion be it resolved what you
7:37call political correctness I call
7:40progress please welcome to the stage
7:44he's an award-winning writer scholar
7:48broadcaster on NPR and sports networks
7:51across America Michael Eric Dyson
7:54Michael come on out
8:07Michael's debating partner is also
8:11award-winning author she's calmest at
8:14the New York Times and someone who is
8:17going to bring a very distinct and
8:19powerful perspective tonight
8:21Michelle Goldberg Michelle come on out
8:28[Music]
8:33so one great team of debaters deserves
8:37another and arguing against our
8:40resolution be it resolved what you call
8:42political correctness I call progress is
8:45the Emmy award-winning actor
8:47screenwriter author playwright
8:49journalist poet and tonight's debater
8:52Stephen Fry
8:59Thank You City
9:07Stephens teammates is a professor of
9:10psychology at the University of Toronto
9:12a youtube sensation and the author of
9:15the big new international bestseller 12
9:19rules for life ladies and gentlemen
9:21Toronto's Jordan Peterson
9:35okay we're gonna get our debate underway
9:37momentarily but first a quick checklist
9:39to go through we've got a hashtag
9:41tonight hash at monk debate those of you
9:44in the hall and those of you watching
9:46online please weigh in let's get your
9:50opinions going also for those of you
9:52watching online right now we have an
9:55running poll
9:56ww monk debates comm Ford / votes
10:00reflect input react to this debate as it
10:03unfolds over the next hour and a half
10:06my favorite part aspect of this show
10:09that was Peter's brilliance and creation
10:11we have our countdown clock what this
10:14does is it keeps our debaters on their
10:16toes and our debate on time so when you
10:18see these clocks on the screen go down
10:20to zero
10:21I wanted you to join me in a warm round
10:24of applause and we'll have a debate that
10:29ends when it's supposed to end now let's
10:33see we had our resolution tonight on the
10:36way in we had this audience of roughly
10:383,000 people here in downtown Toronto
10:40vote on be it resolved what you call
10:43political correctness I call progress
10:45let's see the agree disagree on that
10:48number
10:4936% agree 64% disagree so a room in play
10:54now we asked you how many of you were
10:58open to changing your vote over the
11:00course of debate are you fixed agree
11:02disagree or could you potentially be
11:04convinced by one or other of these two
11:07teams to move your vote over the next
11:10hour and a half let's see those numbers
11:12now Wow
11:14okay a pretty open-minded crowd this
11:16debate is very much in play and as per
11:21the agreed-upon order of speakers I'm
11:22going to call on Michelle Goldberg first
11:24Michelle would you like I said but water
11:26you can have a sip of water before you
11:27start calling Michelle Goldberg first
11:30for her six minutes of opening remarks
11:31Michelle okay thank you for having me as
11:35record knows I initially balked a little
11:38bit at the resolution that we're
11:40debating because there are a lot of
11:41things that fall under the rubric of
11:43political correctness that I don't call
11:45progress
11:46I don't like nope
11:48forming or Twitter or trigger warnings
11:52you know like a lot of middle-aged
11:54liberals there are many aspects of
11:56student social justice culture that I
11:58find off-putting although I'm not sure
12:00that that particular generation gap is
12:03anything is anything new on the record
12:06about the toxicity of social media
12:08call-out culture and I think it's good
12:10to debate people whose ideas I don't
12:12like which is why I'm here so if there
12:15are social justice warriors in the
12:17audience I feel like I should apologize
12:18to you because I'm probably not you're
12:20probably gonna feel like I'm not
12:21adequately defending your ideas but the
12:26reason I'm on this side of the stage is
12:29that political correctness isn't just a
12:31term for left-wing excesses on college
12:33campuses or people being terrible on
12:36Twitter especially is deployed by mr.
12:39Peterson I think it can be a way to
12:41delay jitter mize any attempt for women
12:44and racial and sexual minorities to
12:46overcome discrimination or even to argue
12:48that such discrimination is real in the
12:51New York Times today mr. Peterson says
12:54quote the people who hold that all that
12:57our culture is an oppressive patriarchy
12:59they don't want to admit that the
13:01current hierarchy might be predicated on
13:02competence that sounds particularly
13:05insane to me because I'm an American and
13:07our president is Donald Trump but
13:11but it's an assumption that I think
13:13underlies a worldview in which any
13:15challenges to the current hierarchy are
13:18written off as political correctness I
13:20also think we should be clear that this
13:22isn't really a debate about free speech
13:25mr. Peterson once referred to what he
13:27called quote the evil Trinity of equity
13:30diversity and inclusivity and said those
13:32three words if you hear people mouth
13:34those three words equity diversity and
13:37inclusivity you know who you're dealing
13:39with and you should step away from that
13:40because it is not acceptable he argues
13:43that the movie frozen is politically
13:45correct propaganda and at one point he
13:48floated the idea of creating a database
13:50of university course content so students
13:52could avoid postmodern critical theory
13:54so in the criticism of political
13:57correctness I sometimes hear an urge or
13:59an attempt to purge our thought of
14:02certain analytical categories that
14:05mirrors I think the worst caricatures of
14:07the social justice left that want to get
14:10rid of anything that smacks of
14:12colonialism or patriarchy or white
14:14supremacy I also don't really think
14:17we're debating the value of the
14:18Enlightenment at least not in the way
14:20that somebody like mr. Frey who I think
14:23is a champion of enlightenment values
14:24brings it the efforts to expand rights
14:27and privileges once granted just to land
14:29owning white heterosexual men is the
14:33Enlightenment or is very much in keeping
14:35with the Enlightenment to quote a dead
14:38white man John Stuart Mill the despotism
14:42of custom is everywhere the standing
14:43hindrance to human advancement I think
14:47that some of our opponents by contrast
14:51frame challenges to the despotism of
14:53customs as politically correct attacks
14:55on a transcendent natural order to quote
15:00mr. Peterson again each gender each sex
15:02has its own unfairness to deal with but
15:05to think of it as a consequence of the
15:06social of the social structure it's like
15:08come on really what about nature itself
15:11but there's an exception to this because
15:14he does believe in social interventions
15:16to remedy some kinds of unfairness which
15:19is why in the new york times it calls
15:20for quote enforced monogamy to remedy
15:23the woes of men who don't get
15:24their equal distribution of sex when it
15:28comes to the political correctness
15:29debate we've been exactly here before
15:32the Alan bloom the author of the closing
15:35of the American mind compared the
15:37tyranny of feminism in academia to the
15:40Khmer Rouge and he was writing at a time
15:43when women accounted for 10 percent of
15:45all college tenured faculty it's worth
15:48looking back at what was considered
15:49annoyingly outrageously politically
15:52correct in the 1980s last time we had
15:55this debate you know having to call or
15:57not being able to call indigenous people
15:59quote Indians or having to use
16:02hyphenated terms at least in the United
16:03States have terms like African Americans
16:05you know adding women or people of color
16:07to the Western Civ curriculum not making
16:10gay jokes or using [ __ ] as an epithet
16:13and I kind of get it right new concepts
16:17new words sort of stick in your throat
16:19the way we're used to talking and
16:21thinking seem natural and normal you
16:25know by definition and then the new
16:28terms and new concepts that have social
16:30utility stick and those that don't fall
16:33away so if you go back to the 1970s myth
16:36you know ms as an alternative to miss or
16:39mrs. stuck around and women with a Y
16:42didn't and I think that someday or I
16:45hope that someday we'll look back and
16:46marvel at the idea that gender-neutral
16:49pronouns ever seemed like an existential
16:51threat to anyone but I also don't think
16:54it's clear that you know that might not
16:56happen because if you look around the
16:59world right now there are plenty of
17:01places that have indeed dialed back
17:03cosmopolitanism and reinstated
17:05patriarchy and the name of staving off
17:07chaos and they have seemed like terrible
17:10places to live you know I come to you
17:13from the United States which is
17:15currently undergoing a monumental
17:18attempt to rollback social progress in
17:20the name of overcoming political
17:22correctness and as someone who lives
17:24there I assure you it feels nothing like
17:26progress thank you
17:37great start to the debate Michelle thank
17:39you I'm now going to ask Jordan Peterson
17:41to speak for the con team hello
17:51so we should first decide what we're
17:54talking about we're not talking about my
17:57views of political correctness despite
18:00what you might have inferred from the
18:02last speakers comments this is how it
18:05looks to me we essentially need
18:08something approximating a low resolution
18:11grand narrative to unite us and and we
18:15need a narrative to unite us because
18:16otherwise we don't have peace what's
18:20playing out in the Universities and in
18:22broader society right now is a debate
18:23between two fundamental low resolution
18:26narratives neither of which can be
18:28completely accurate because they can't
18:29encompass all the details obviously
18:31human beings have an individual element
18:33and a collective element a group element
18:35let's say the question is what story
18:38should be paramount and this is how it
18:40looks to me in the West we have
18:44reasonably functional reasonably free
18:47remarkably productive stable hierarchies
18:51that are open to consideration of the
18:55dispossessed that hierarchies generally
18:57create our societies are freer and
19:01functioning more effectively than any
19:03societies anywhere else in the world and
19:06that and then any societies ever have
19:08and as far as I'm concerned and I think
19:10there's good reason to assume this it's
19:11because the fundamental low resolution
19:14grand narrative that we've oriented
19:17ourselves around in the West is one of
19:18the sovereignty of the individual and
19:20it's predicated on the idea that all
19:22things considered the best way for me to
19:25interact with someone else is individual
19:27to individual and to react to that
19:29person as if they're both part of the
19:32process because that's the right way of
19:34thinking about it the psychological
19:35process by which things we don't
19:37understand can yet be explored and by
19:40things that aren't properly organized in
19:42our society can be yet set right the
19:44reason we're valuable as individuals
19:46both with regards to our rights and
19:48responsibilities is because that's our
19:50essential purpose and that's our
19:51nobility and that's our function what's
19:55happening as far as I'm concerned in the
19:57universities in particular and spreading
19:59very rapidly out into the broader world
20:00including the corporate world much to
20:02its
20:04to what should be its chagrin is a
20:06collectivist narrative and of course
20:09there's some utility in a collectivist
20:12narrative because we're all part of
20:13groups in different ways but the
20:14collectivist narrative that I regard as
20:17politically correct is a pastiche of a
20:19strange pastiche of post-modernism in
20:22neo Marxism and it's fundamental claim
20:24is that no you're not essentially an
20:26individual you're essentially a member
20:29of a group and that group might be your
20:32ethnicity and it might be your sex and
20:34it might be a race and it might be any
20:36of the endless numbers of other
20:37potential groups that you belong to
20:39because you belong to many of them and
20:41that you should be essentially
20:43categorized along with those who are
20:45like you on that dimension in that group
20:47that's proposition number one
20:48proposition number two is that the
20:50proper way to view the world is as a
20:53battleground between groups of different
20:55power so you define the group's first
20:57and then you assume that you you you
21:00view the individual from the group
21:02context you view the battle between
21:04groups from the group context and you
21:06view history itself as a consequence of
21:08nothing but the power maneuvers between
21:10different groups that eliminates any
21:12consideration of the individual and at a
21:15very fundamental level and also any idea
21:18for example of free speech because if
21:20you're collectivist at heart in this
21:23manner there is no such thing as free
21:25speech it isn't that it's debated by
21:27those on the radical left and let's say
21:30the rest of us so to speak it's that in
21:32that formulation there's no such thing
21:34as free speech because for an
21:35individualist free speech is how you
21:37make sense of the world in reorganize
21:38Society in a proper manner but for the
21:40radical left type collectivist that's
21:43associated with this viewpoint of
21:44political correctness when you speak all
21:46you're doing is playing a power game on
21:48behalf of your group and there's nothing
21:50else that you can do because that's all
21:52there is and not only is that all there
21:55is in terms of who you are as an
21:56individual now and how society should be
21:58viewed it's also the fundamental
22:00narrative of history for example it's
22:03it's widely assumed in our universities
22:05now that the best way to conceptualize
22:07Western civilization is as an oppressive
22:10male-dominated patriarchy and that the
22:12best way to construe relationships
22:14between men and women across the
22:15centuries is one of oppression of women
22:18by men
22:18that's like well look no hierarchy is
22:24without its tyranny that's a that's an
22:27axiomatic truth people have recognized
22:28that literally for thousands of years
22:30and hierarchies do tend towards tyranny
22:33and they tend towards the usurpation by
22:36people with power but that only happens
22:38when they become corrupt we have
22:40mechanisms in our society to stop
22:42hierarchies from becoming intolerably
22:44corrupt and they actually work pretty
22:45well and so and so I would also I would
22:49also I would also point this out you
22:52know don't be thinking that this is a
22:54debate about whether empathy is useful
22:56or not or that the people on the con
22:58side of the argument are not empathetic
23:00I know perfectly well as I'm sure mr.
23:02Frey does that hierarchies tend to
23:04produce situations where people stack up
23:06at the bottom and that the dispossessed
23:08in hierarchies need a political voice
23:10which is the proper voice of the left by
23:12the way the necessary voice of the left
23:14but that is not the same as proclaiming
23:16that the right level of analysis for our
23:18grand unifying narrative is that all of
23:20us are fundamentally to be identified by
23:23the groups that we belong to and to
23:25construe the entire world as the
23:27battleground between different forms of
23:30tyranny in consequence of that group
23:32affiliation and to the degree that we
23:34play out that narrative that won't be
23:37progress believe me and we certainly
23:39haven't seen that progress in the
23:41universities we've seen situations like
23:43what happened in Wilfred Laurier
23:44University instead we won't see progress
23:47what we'll return to is exactly the same
23:49kind of tribalism that characterized the
23:51lamp
24:00Thank You Jordan Michael Eric Dyson your
24:036 minutes starts now thank you very
24:07kindly wonderful opportunity to be here
24:10in Canada thank you so much I'm gonna
24:15stand here at the podium I'm a preacher
24:18and I will ask for an offering at the
24:20end of my presentation this is the
24:24swimsuit competition of the intellectual
24:26beauty pageant so let me show you the
24:29curves of my thought oh my god was that
24:32a politically incorrect statement I just
24:34made how did we get to the point where
24:37the hijacking of the discourse on
24:39political correctness has become a kind
24:43of Manichean distinction between us in
24:45them the abortive fantasy just presented
24:49is remarkable for both its clarity and
24:52yet the muddiness of the context from
24:54which it has emerged what's interesting
24:56to me is that when we look at the
24:59radical left I'm saying what he had I
25:01want to join them named running up and
25:04I'm from a country where a man stands up
25:05every day to tweet the moral mendacity
25:08of his viciousness into a nation he has
25:12turned into his psychic commode
25:20y'all get Justin we got Donnell
25:23so what's interesting then is that
25:25political correctness has transmogrified
25:27into a caricature of the left the left
25:29came up with the term political
25:31correctness shall I remind you we were
25:34tired of our excuses and our excesses in
25:36our exaggerations we were willing to be
25:38so critical in a way that I fear my
25:40confreres my compatriots are not don't
25:44take yourself too seriously smile take
25:47yourself not seriously at all but what
25:49you do with deadly seriousness now it is
25:52transmogrified into an attempt to
25:53characterize the radical left the
25:56radical left is a metaphor as a symbol
25:59as an articulation they don't exist
26:01their numbers are too small I'm on
26:03college campuses I don't see much of
26:05them coming when I hear about identity
26:07politics it amazes me the collectivist
26:10identity politics last time I checked I
26:13forgive in a trace that was an invention
26:16from a dominant culture that wanted
26:18groups to at their behest the invention
26:20of race was driven by the demand of a
26:23dominant culture to subordinate others
26:26patreon
26:27hey patriarchy patriarchy was the demand
26:31of men to have their exclusive vision
26:34presented the beauty of feminism is it's
26:37not gonna resolve differences between
26:38men and women it just says me I don't
26:40automatically get the last word of
26:43course of my career he never did and so
26:47identity politics has been generated as
26:50a bit Noir of the right and yet the
26:52right doesn't understand the degree to
26:54which identity has been foisted upon
26:56black people and brown people and people
26:57of color from the very beginning on
26:59women and trans people you think that I
27:01want to be part of a group that is
27:03constantly imported by people at
27:05Starbucks I imagine my own black
27:09business
27:11walking down the street I have group
27:14identity thrust upon me they don't say
27:16ah-ha-ha there goes a negro
27:19highly intelligent articulate verbose
27:23capable of rhetorical fury at the drop
27:25of a hat
27:26we should not interrogate him as to the
27:29bona fides of his legal status no they
27:32treat me as part of a group and the
27:34problem is that our friends don't want
27:37to acknowledge is that the hegemony that
27:39dominance of that group has been so
27:42vicious that it has denied us the
27:43opportunity to exist as individuals
27:46individualism is the characteristic
27:48moment in modernity mr. Peterson is
27:51right the development of the individual
27:53however is predicated upon notions of
27:55intelligence Immanuel content David Hume
27:57and others philosophically karte
27:59Descartes comes along
28:01introducing knowledge into the to the to
28:04the to the fray saying that knowledge is
28:06based upon a kind of reference to the
28:08golden intelligence the reflective glass
28:11that one possesses and yet he got rooted
28:13in the very ground of our existence so
28:16now it has fleshly basis and what I'm
28:18saying to you the knowledge that I bring
28:20as a person of color makes a difference
28:22in my body cuz I know what people think
28:24of me
28:25and I know how they respond to me and
28:26that ain't no Theory am I you might mad
28:29at trigger warnings the only trigger
28:31warning I want is from a cop are you
28:32about to shoot me not funny in America
28:37where young black people die repeatedly
28:39unarmed without provocation and so for
28:43me identity politics is something very
28:45serious and what's interesting about
28:46safe spaces I hear about the University
28:50I teach there look if you in a safe
28:53space in your body you don't need a safe
28:55space some of that is overblown some of
28:57it is ridiculous I understand I believe
28:59that the classroom was a robust place
29:01for serious learning I believe in the
29:03interrogation of knowledge based upon
29:05our understanding usually of the
29:06edifying proposition of enlightenment at
29:09the same time some people ain't as equal
29:11as others so we have to understand the
29:13conditions under which they have emerged
29:15and in which they have been knighted and
29:17attacked by their own culture
29:20and I ain't seen nobody be a bigger
29:22snowflake than white man who can play
29:24mommy mommy they won't let us play and
29:28have everything we used to have under
29:30the old regime where we were right
29:32racist and supremacist and dominant and
29:34patriarchs and hated gays and lesbians
29:36and transsexuals that yeah you got a
29:38share
29:39this ain't your world this about his
29:41world and let me have my saying this
29:43yoram that story from David Foster
29:45Wallace Fisher going down to Fisher
29:48going and the older fish comes in the
29:49opposite direction
29:50he said hello boys how's the water they
29:53swim on they turn each other what the
29:54hell is water because when you're in it
29:56you don't know it when you're dominant
29:58you don't know it nothing Keyser söze he
30:01said is more interesting but the devil
30:03did and to make people believe he didn't
30:05exist
30:07[Music]
30:18thank you Michael Steven you're up we're
30:20gonna put six minutes on the clock and
30:22please start because if I miss that
30:27plane to London I went half here the end
30:29of it from the bridegroom's mother now
30:34in agreeing to participate in this
30:38debate and stand on this side of the
30:41argument I'm fully aware that many
30:42people who choose incorrectly in my view
30:45too to see this issue in terms of left
30:48and right devalued and exploded terms as
30:50I think they are will believe that I am
30:53betraying myself in such causes and
30:55values that I've espoused over the years
30:58I've been given a huge grief already
31:00simply because I'm standing here next to
31:02Professor Peterson which is the very
31:05reason that I am standing here in the
31:07first place I'm standing next to someone
31:10with whom I have no differences shall we
31:15say in terms of politics and all kinds
31:17of other things
31:18precisely because I think all this has
31:20got to stop this rage resentment
31:23hostility hostility intolerance above
31:27all this some with us or against us
31:30certainty a grand canyon has opened up
31:34in our world the fist year the crack
31:36grows wider every day neither on each
31:40side can hear a word that the other
31:42shrieks and nor do they want to while
31:46these armies and propagandists in the
31:48culture wars clash down below in the
31:50enormous space between the two sides the
31:54people of the world try to get on with
31:55their lives alternately baffled bored
31:58and betrayed by the horrible noises and
32:01explosions that I can all around I think
32:03it's time for this toxic binary zero-sum
32:07madness to stop before we destroy
32:10ourselves
32:15I'd better nail my colors to the master
32:18before I get it further than this it's
32:20only polite to give you a sense of where
32:21I come from I all my adult life I have
32:23been what you might call a left ear a
32:25soft lefty a liberal of the most hand
32:28ringing milksop milquetoast variety not
32:31a burning man the barricades socialist
32:35not even really a progressive worth the
32:37name I've been on marches but I've never
32:39quite dead waved placards banners am i a
32:43loathed member of that band the an sjw a
32:47a social justice warrior I don't think
32:50highly of social injustice I have to say
32:53but I character myself mostly as a
32:56social justice warrior my intellectual
33:00heroes growing up were Bertrand Russell
33:03and G more liberal thinkers people like
33:05that writers like iam Forster I believed
33:07and I think I still do believe in the
33:09sanctity of human relations of the
33:12primacy of the heart and friendship and
33:14love and common interest these are more
33:17personal interior beliefs than they are
33:21political exterior convictions more a
33:24humanistic version of a religious
33:26impulse I suppose I trust in humanity I
33:29believe in humanity I think I do despite
33:32all that has happened in the 40 years of
33:34my adulthood I am soft and I can easily
33:36be swept away by harder hearts and
33:38harder intellects I'm sometimes
33:40surprised to be described as an activist
33:42but over time I have energetically
33:45involved myself with what you might call
33:47causes I grew up knowing that I was gay
33:49well in fact from the very first I knew
33:51I was gay I remember when I was born
33:52looking up and saying that's the last
33:54time I'm going out one of those I'm
33:59I'm I'm Jewish I'm Jewish so I have a
34:04natural I was horror of racism I
34:07naturally I want racism misogyny
34:10homophobia transphobia xenophobia
34:13bullying bigotry intolerance of all
34:16human kinds to end that's surely a given
34:19amongst all of us the question is how
34:21such a golden aim is to be achieved
34:23my ultimate objection to political
34:25correctness is not that it combines so
34:28much of what I have spent a lifetime
34:29loathing and opposing preaching us with
34:32great respect piety self-righteousness
34:38heresy hunting denunciation shaming
34:42assertion without evidence accusation
34:44Inquisition censoring that's not why I'm
34:48incurring the wrath of my fellow
34:49liberals by standing on this side of the
34:51house my real objection is that I don't
34:54think political correctness works I want
34:58to achieve I want to get to the golden
35:00Hill but I don't think that's the way to
35:03get there
35:03I believe one of the greatest human
35:07failings is to prefer to be right than
35:11to be effective and political
35:17correctness is always obsessed with how
35:19right it is without thinking of how
35:21effective it it might be
35:23I wouldn't class myself as a classical
35:25libertarian but I do
35:27relish transgression and I deeply and
35:30instinctively distrust conformity and
35:34orthodoxy progress is not achieved by
35:37preachers and guardians of morality but
35:40to paraphrase a organism yatin by madmen
35:43Hermits heretics dreamers rebels and
35:47skeptics I
35:50I may be wrong I hope to learn this
35:55evening I really do think I may be wrong
35:57but I am prepared to entertain the
36:00possibility that political correctness
36:02will bring us more tolerance and a
36:06better world but I'm not sure and I
36:09would like this quotation from my hero
36:11Bertrand Russell to hover over the
36:13evening one of the painful things about
36:15our time is that those who feel
36:18certainty are stupid and those with any
36:21imagination and understanding are filled
36:23with doubt and indecision let doubt
36:26prevail
36:30[Music]
36:36so great set of opening statements to
36:40set the scene we're now going to go into
36:42a round of rebuttals to allow each of
36:44our presenters three minutes to reflect
36:47on what they've heard and to make some
36:49additional points we're gonna do that in
36:51the same order that we had the opening
36:52statement so Michelle you're up first
36:54we'll put 3 minutes on the clock for you
36:57so first I would say that I think that
37:01the attempt to draw as I cottony between
37:05individual rights and group rights is a
37:08little bit misleading traditionally
37:12there have been large groups of people
37:15who have not been able to exercise their
37:18individual rights and I think that a lot
37:21of the claims that are being made on
37:23behalf of what we politically cracked
37:27types call marginalized groups are
37:29claims that people who you know have
37:32identities that have not traditionally
37:35been at the center of our culture or
37:39been at the top of our hierarchies have
37:41as much right to exercise their
37:43individual talents and realize their
37:46individual ambitions right when we say
37:49that we want more women in power or more
37:52people of colors voices in the Canon or
37:56in the curriculum or you know Pete
37:58directing movies all of these things are
38:00not because at least on my part I'm
38:02interested in some sort of very crude
38:04equity but because there are a lot of
38:06people who have not traditionally been
38:10able to realize themselves as
38:14individuals that's what the women's
38:16movement was that's what the civil
38:17rights movement was that's what the gay
38:19rights movement was that's in some ways
38:21what the trans rights movement was I
38:23mean far from a collectivist movement
38:25this is kind of liberalism classical
38:29liberalism push to its extreme right
38:32these are people saying I have the right
38:35to define my identity against the one
38:38that was collectively assigned to me
38:41finally I would say you know a lot of
38:43the things that Stephen Fry said you
38:45know in particularly his temperament
38:46were probably in agreement
38:49but this Inquisition this sensoria sness
38:53on the one hand I'm sort of I see where
38:56he's coming from
38:57but I think it's a little bit virtual
39:00right I mean nope who's who's really
39:03censoring you I understand what it feels
39:06like to feel censored I understand what
39:08it feels like to be on the wrong side of
39:10a Twitter mob or get a lot of nasty
39:13comments but and that's a bad feeling
39:16you know and it's a counterproductive
39:18tactic but that's not censorship you
39:21know and again it's it's especially
39:24strange coming from a country where you
39:28know the President of the United States
39:30is trying to levy additional postal
39:33rates on the owner of the Washington
39:35Post you know in revenge for its
39:37reporting and people who have kneeled to
39:41protest police brutality at football
39:43games have seen their careers explode
39:46you know or people who have you know
39:49women who have challenged mr. Peterson
39:51has been hounded by threats and trolls
39:55and misogynist invective
40:04Jordan we're gonna have three minutes up
40:07on the screen there please respond to
40:09what you've heard well I guess I would
40:14like to set out a challenge and somewhat
40:17the same format is mr. Frey did to
40:19people on the moderate left
40:21I mean I've studied totalitarianism for
40:24a very long time both on the left and on
40:27the right in various forms and I think
40:31we've done a pretty decent job of
40:33determining when right-wing beliefs
40:35become dangerous I think that they
40:37become dangerous when they the people
40:40who stand on the right evoke notions of
40:42racial superior superior tea or ethnic
40:45superiority something like that it's
40:46fairly easy to draw a box around them
40:48and place them to one side and necessary
40:51and I think we've done a pretty good job
40:52of that what I fail to see happening on
40:54the left and this is with regards to the
40:56sensible left because such a thing
40:58exists is for the same thing to happen
41:00with regards to the radical leftists
41:02okay so here's an open question if it's
41:04not diversity inclusivity and equity as
41:09a triumvirate that mark out the to
41:12excessive left and with equity defined
41:16by the way not as equality of
41:17opportunity which is an absolutely
41:18laudable goal but as equality of outcome
41:21which is how it's defined then exactly
41:24how do we do mark eight the two extreme
41:26left what do we do we say well there's
41:28no such thing as the two extreme left
41:31well that's certainly something that
41:33characterized much of intellectual
41:35thinking for the 20th century as our
41:36high order intellectuals especially in
41:38place like places like France did
41:40everything they could to bend over
41:42backwards to ignore absolutely
41:43everything that was happening in the
41:45catastrophic left world in the Soviet
41:47Union and in Mao is China not least
41:49we've done a terrible job of determining
41:51how to demarcate what's useful from the
41:54left from what's pathological and so
41:56it's perfectly okay for someone to
41:58criticize my attempts to identify
41:59something like a boundary we could say
42:02diversity inclusivity and equity
42:04especially equity which is in fact
42:06equality of outcome which is an
42:07absolutely abhorrent notion if you know
42:10anything about history you know that and
42:12I'm perfectly willing to hear some
42:14reasonable alternatives but what I hear
42:16continually from people on the left
42:18first of all as my opponents did to
42:20construe every argument that is possibly
42:22able to be construed on the axis of
42:24group identification and it failed two
42:27different to fail to help the rest of us
42:29differentiate the reasonable left which
42:33stands for the oppressed necessarily
42:36from the pathological left that's
42:38capable of unbelievable destruction and
42:40what I see happening in the university
42:42campus is in particular where the left
42:44is absolutely predominate and that's
42:46certainly not my imagination that's
42:48that's well documented by perfectly
42:50reasonable people like Jonathan height
42:51is an absolute failure to make precisely
42:53that distinction and I see the same
42:55thing echoed tonight thank you
43:05Michael give us your rebuttal
43:13I feel freer already
43:17I don't know what mythological
43:23collective mr. Peterson refers to I'm
43:26part of the left they're cantankerous
43:28when they have a firing squad is usually
43:32in a semi-circle part of the skepticism
43:37of rationality was predicated upon the
43:39Enlightenment project which says we're
43:41no longer going to be subordinate to
43:42skepticism to superstition we're gonna
43:45think and we're gonna think well Thomas
43:48Jefferson was one of the great arbiters
43:50of rationality but he was also a man who
43:53was a slave owner how do you reconcile
43:55that that's the complication I'm
43:56speaking about that's not either-or
43:58that's not a collective identity Thomas
44:01Jefferson believed in a collective
44:02identity that is during the day at night
44:05he gets in luther vandross songs went
44:09out to the slave quarter and engaged in
44:12sexual relations and had many children
44:14with Sally Hemings his loins trumped his
44:17logic and when he hit talks about
44:21post-modernism I don't know who he's
44:23talking about I teach post-modernism
44:24it's kind of fun Jacques Derrida just to
44:28say his name is beautiful Michel
44:30Foucault Michele Foucault talked about
44:33the insurrection of subjugated analogous
44:34people who had been marginalized now
44:36beginning to speak the subaltern this
44:38Gayatri Spivak talks about it in
44:39post-colonial theory the reason these
44:41people grew up and grew into existence
44:43and had a voice is because they were
44:45denied as Miss Goldberg said our group
44:48identity was forced upon us we were not
44:49seen as individuals
44:51Babe Ruth when he broke the home rule a
44:53home run record he didn't bat against
44:55all best ballplayers he bent it against
44:57the best white ballplayers when it's
44:59been rigged in your favor from the very
45:01beginning it's hard for you to
45:02understand how much you've been rigged
45:03you're born on third base think you hit
45:04a triple at the Toronto Blue Jays game
45:10and here we are deriving our sense of
45:13identity from the very culture that we
45:15ignore look at the indigenous names and
45:17the first nation names Toronto
45:19Saskatchewan Winnipeg Tim Hortons
45:26but I'll tell you there's an envy of the
45:30kind of freedom and liberty that people
45:32of color and other minorities bring
45:33because we bring the depth of knowledge
45:36in our body there's a kind of jealousy
45:38event as the greatest living Canadian
45:40philosopher Aubrey Drake Graham says
45:43jealousy is just love and hate at the
45:45same time and so for me I think it's
45:48necessary I agree with mr. fry we
45:50shouldn't be nasty and combative and yet
45:53I don't see nastiness and
45:54competitiveness from people I see them
45:55making a desire to have their individual
45:59identities respected when I get shot
46:01down for no other reason that I'm black
46:03when I get categorized for no other
46:05reason than my color I am living in a
46:07culture that refuses to see me as a
46:09great individual
46:25now it's it's interesting to hear that
46:28there doesn't seem to be a problem
46:30button yet I think we all instinctively
46:32know that there is some kind of problem
46:34there isn't censorship of course not in
46:36the way that there is in Russia I've
46:38been to Russia I have faced off with a
46:41deeply homophobic and unpleasant man and
46:44there's political correctness in Russia
46:45it's just political correctness on the
46:47right and that's what I grew up with
46:49political correctness which meant that
46:51you couldn't say certain things on
46:52television couldn't say [ __ ] for example
46:55on television because it was incorrect
46:57to do so and as always the same reason
47:00was that someone would appear and say
47:02I'm not shocked of course no I'm not
47:04shocked I'm not offended I'm offended on
47:07behalf of others young impressionable
47:09plastic minds the vulnerable and and
47:12that's not good enough it's it's so
47:15often people are saying see I don't mind
47:17being called a [ __ ] or a [ __ ] or
47:18everyway or mad person because I've got
47:20mental health issues I don't mind people
47:22insulting me and people say well that's
47:23alright for you Steven because you know
47:26you're strong well I I don't feel
47:28particularly strong and I don't know
47:29that I like being called a [ __ ] in a
47:31kite particularly but I don't believe
47:34that the advances in my culture that
47:37have allowed me to marry as I have now
47:38been for three years to someone of my
47:41gender I don't believe they are a result
47:44of political correctness and maybe
47:46political correctness is actually just
47:47some sort of live trout that the harder
47:50we squeeze it the further it goes away
47:51and and you will be saying I'm not
47:54talking about this redness you're
47:55talking about social justice with which
47:57I agree with whether you want to call it
47:59identity politics or the history of your
48:00people the history my people my people
48:02were slaves as well but the British were
48:04slaves and Romans and the Jews were
48:05slaves of the Egyptians all human beings
48:07have been slaves at some point and we
48:09all in that sense share that knowledge
48:12of how important it is to speak up but
48:16Russell Means who was a friend of mine
48:17towards the end who founded the American
48:19Indian Movement he said I forgot say
48:21come in Indian or a Lakota Sioux or
48:23Russell I don't care what you call me
48:24it's how we treated that matters and so
48:27I'm really addressing a
48:29popular idea also actually in barrel
48:34asker and the new PR said call me an
48:36Eskimo it's obviously easier for you
48:39because you keep mispronouncing in
48:40nuclear it you know words do matter the
48:45just then with a quick story
48:47gay rights came in battling them because
48:50we slowly and persistently knocked on
48:52the door of people in power we didn't
48:53shout we didn't scream people like Ian
48:55McKellen eventually got to see the Prime
48:57Minister and when the Queen signed in
48:59the Royal Assent she has to for the bill
49:02allowing equality of marriage she said
49:05Lord you know I couldn't imagine this in
49:091953 really is extraordinary isn't it
49:13just wonderful and handing it over now
49:17it's a nice story and I hope it's true
49:18but it's nothing to do with political
49:21correctness it's to do with human
49:22decency it's that simple
49:25[Music]
49:32so some some great rebuttals there
49:35strong opening statements let's move now
49:37into the the moderated cross-examination
49:40portion of this debate and get both
49:41sides engaging on some of the key issues
49:46here and I think what we've heard here
49:48is a bit of a attention let's draw it
49:50out a bit more between the rights of
49:53groups to feel included to have in your
49:55words Michelle the opportunity for
49:57individuality and a belief on the other
49:59side that there's something at threat
50:02here when these groups are overly
50:04privileged through affirmative action or
50:07other outcome oriented processes so
50:10Michael to start with you why why isn't
50:14there just harm that's done to groups by
50:18privileges their group identity whether
50:22it be a group identity of race or gender
50:24and not immediately treating them as
50:26individuals in the way that Jordan and
50:28Steven would like to see you see them
50:30first well a couple of things first of
50:32all there was no arbitrary and random
50:35distinction that people of color and
50:37other minority groups made when I talked
50:40about the invention of race the
50:41invention of gender the invention of
50:43group think that was not done at the by
50:46those groups that have been so named as
50:48Miss Goldberg said so first of all
50:50you've got to acknowledge the historical
50:52evolution of that reality and the
50:54concept of group identity did not begin
50:57with them it began with a group that
50:59didn't have to announce its identity
51:00when you are in control you don't have
51:03to announce who you are so that many
51:05white brothers and sisters don't see
51:06themselves as one among many other
51:07ethnicities or groups what they see
51:09themselves as I'm just American I'm
51:11Canadian can't you be like us can't you
51:13transcend those narrow group
51:15identifications and yet those group
51:17identifications have been imprinted upon
51:19them by the very people who now because
51:22they're their group power has been
51:24challenged let's make no mistake about
51:26it there's a challenge I agree with mr.
51:28Frey in a kind of nether land of how
51:31sweet it would be to have a kingly and
51:33queenly metaphor about how he got
51:36resolved that ain't the real deal homie
51:37and in the real world
51:40and in the real world their stuff at
51:42stake what's at stake our bodies what's
51:45at stake or people's lives what's at
51:46stake people are still being lynched
51:47killed what's at stake people because of
51:49their sexuality and their racial
51:51identity are still being harmed so I'm
51:53suggesting to you it's not that we are
51:55against being treated as individuals
51:57that's what we're crying for please
51:59don't see me as a member of a group that
52:01you think is a thug a [ __ ]
52:03Annihilus the pathological person see me
52:06as an individual who embodies the
52:08realities were but I'll end by saying
52:10this what Michelle said is extremely
52:12important the people who have individual
52:16rights didn't have to fight for them in
52:17the same manner that people of color and
52:20others have had to when mr. fried talked
52:23about enslavement he named them read
52:25Orlando Patterson's comparative history
52:27of race and slavery over 28
52:30civilizations the Greeks did not have
52:32the same kind of slavery that Americans
52:34said it was chattel slavery in Greece
52:36you could buy back your freedom you
52:39could teach the children of the people
52:41who enslaved you and because of your
52:43display of prodigious intellect you
52:45could secure your freedom that was not
52:47the case you were punished and killed
52:50for literacy in America so my point
52:52simply is this is that I am all for the
52:55celebration of broader identities and I
52:58think that often those who are
53:00minorities and others are not celebrated
53:02for the degree that we are in by saying
53:04this in America we have the Confederate
53:07flag I don't know if y'all are familiar
53:08with that we have a confederate flag
53:10we have white guys mostly in the south
53:14but others as well flanked most
53:16Confederate flags that are part of the
53:19South that refused to cede its
53:21legitimate conquests at the hands of the
53:24north there has been a politics of
53:26resentment every you talk my politics of
53:28identity wearing that flag not the
53:30American flag they are not American they
53:33are celebrating a secession a move away
53:35from America and a man named Colin
53:38Kaepernick who is a football player
53:39saying I want to bring beauty to that
53:43flag has been denied opportunity so we
53:45have to really set the terms of debate
53:47in order before we proceed
53:53good point
53:54shorten let's have you jump in on this
53:56idea of what you see is the pernicious
53:58danger of groupthink when it comes to
54:01ethnicity when it comes to gender why do
54:04you think that's that's one of the
54:06primal sins in your view of quote
54:08political correctness well I think it's
54:10one of the primal sins of identity
54:12politics players on the left and the
54:14right just to be clear about that
54:16personally since this has got personal
54:18at times I'm no fan of the identitarian
54:20right I think that anybody who plays a
54:23game a conceptual game where group
54:26identity comes first and foremost risks
54:28and exacerbation of tribalism it doesn't
54:30matter whether it's on the left or the
54:31right
54:33with regards to the idea of group rights
54:35well there's a fundamental and this is
54:37something we've fallen into terribly in
54:39Canada not least because we had to
54:40contend with the threat of Quebec
54:42separatism but the idea of group rights
54:45is extraordinarily problematic because
54:47the the the obverse of the coin of
54:51individual rights is individual
54:52responsibilities then you can hold an
54:54individual responsible and an individual
54:56can be responsible and so that's partly
54:59why individuals have rights but groups
55:02how do you hold a group responsible I
55:05mean the whole idea is not it's not a
55:07good idea to hold a group responsible if
55:09first of all it flies in the face of the
55:11idea of the sort of justice systems that
55:14we've laid out in the West that are
55:15essentially predicated first on the
55:17assumption of individual innocence but
55:18also on the possibility of individual
55:20guilt not group guilt we saw what
55:23happened in the twentieth century many
55:25many times when the idea of group guilt
55:27was it was it it was enabled to get a
55:29foothold let's say in the polity and in
55:31the justice system it was absolutely
55:33catastrophic and so ok fine group rights
55:36well what are you gonna how are you
55:37gonna contend with the alternative to
55:39that the opposite of that that where's
55:41the group responsibility how are you
55:44gonna keep how are you gonna hold your
55:45groups responsible well we don't have to
55:47talk about that because we're too
55:48concerned with rectifying hypothetical
55:51rectifying historical injustice is
55:54hypothetical and otherwise and that's
55:56certainly not to say that there weren't
55:57any shortage of absolutely catastrophic
56:00historical injustice that's not the
56:02point the point is
56:04how you view the situation at the most
56:06fundamental level and group rights are
56:09an absolute catastrophe in my opinion
56:11but let's Michelle come in on that point
56:13this is something you've written about
56:17the idea that you know in identity
56:20politics the identity the group is is
56:23absolutely a valid part of the discourse
56:26and individuals could and should be seen
56:29and participating groups as they enter
56:31into the Civic space I'm not sure that
56:34we necessarily have to analogize from
56:37individual you know the opposite of
56:39individual rights is individual
56:41responsibility I'm not sure that that
56:42analogy necessarily holds for the groups
56:45I mean in in the United States and one
56:47of the things that I think it's
56:48complicated about this discussion is
56:50that we're talking about three very
56:51different cultural contexts three
56:53different histories three different kind
56:55of legal regimes but in the United
56:58States a great a huge part of our
57:02politics has been groups struggling for
57:07rights for their individual members
57:10right I mean so women in the United
57:12States you know seeking the right to
57:15reproductive control of their body you
57:18know african-americans in the United
57:21States seeking redress from police
57:25brutality or discrimination or simply
57:28the kind of tendency in America of white
57:31people to call the police whenever they
57:33see an african-american in a place where
57:35they don't think that they're supposed
57:36to be and you simply I don't see how you
57:39can contend with any of those social
57:41problems if you see society as just an
57:45ocean of atomized individuals you know
57:48and I just again I I don't think there's
57:52anything pernicious about people banding
57:57together on the basis of their common
58:00identity to seek redress for
58:03discrimination and exclusion I mean I
58:06think that that is everything that's
58:07best about our democracy that is the
58:11definition of progress and so again I
58:15just I keep stumbling with the idea that
58:17this is
58:18how tyrannical or that way lies
58:21Stalinism and you know a lot of times
58:25people who are opposed to political
58:26correctness talk about the concept of
58:29category creep or say no no
58:32yeah category creep which is a concept
58:35that was originated by I believe in
58:37Australian academic and it's basically
58:39kind of a failure to draw distinctions
58:41right so that you kind of can't see the
58:44difference between say a KKK Grand
58:48Wizard and a conservative like say ben
58:51shapiro
58:52or you know that you kind of see
58:53everybody to your right as you know
58:57fascist sexist to tala terry and
59:00intolerable and i think that that is a
59:02real thing that happens in part because
59:05you know undergraduates often thinking
59:08broad and slightly overwrought
59:11categories I know I did when I was when
59:13I was a kid yeah maybe still do but but
59:17I hear a lot of category creep in again
59:21the argument against political
59:22correctness or against seeking group
59:24redress the idea that kind of that way
59:26lies dehumanization or you know that
59:29you're kind of one minute you're acid
59:31Steven come in on this part of your
59:32opening remarks you're a category creep
59:34Stephen respond to that
59:36it's nice I'm still very lost about why
59:39we aren't talking about political
59:40correctness we're talking about politics
59:42and that's fine and I share you know I
59:48share exactly what you think about it
59:50I'm not an enemy of identity politics
59:53per se I could obviously see where it
59:55goes wrong and where it's annoying let's
59:57be empirical about this how well is it
59:59working for you in America at the moment
1:00:00not well at all really easy I you can
1:00:05ask me in a moment the reason the reason
1:00:08the Trump and brexit in Britain and all
1:00:10kinds of nativists all over Europe is
1:00:12succeeding is not the triumph of the
1:00:14right it's the catastrophic failure of
1:00:16the left it's our fault
1:00:19we absolutely my point is not that I've
1:00:25turned to the right or anything like
1:00:27that or that I'm nice and fluffy I want
1:00:28everybody to be decent I'm saying [ __ ]
1:00:31political correctness resist fight if
1:00:34you have a point of view fight it in the
1:00:36proper manner using democracy's it
1:00:38should be not channels of Education not
1:00:41language you know it's so silly there's
1:00:46a chess rule you know in chess the best
1:00:48move to playing chess is not the best
1:00:50chess move it's the move your opponent
1:00:52least wants you to play at the moment
1:00:55you're being recruiting sergeants for
1:00:57the right but by knowing and upsetting
1:01:00and instead of fighting either fighting
1:01:02or persuading but political correctness
1:01:05is a middle course that simply doesn't
1:01:07work well first of all points you said
1:01:09the empirical and the empirical as far
1:01:10as I know the word means that which can
1:01:12be verified to falsify through the
1:01:13senses exactly so if we look at it in an
1:01:16objective way the the reality is that
1:01:20people don't have equal access to the
1:01:22means to articulate in a very moment
1:01:24you're talking I'm talking about the
1:01:25empirical results of this political
1:01:27attitude I understand that but my point
1:01:29is simply this I'm suggesting to you
1:01:31that people use the weapons at hand now
1:01:34it was a brahim Joshua Heschel of the
1:01:36rabbi who said everybody's not guilty
1:01:38but everybody's responsible right that's
1:01:41a distinction there everybody clearly is
1:01:43not guilty but what's interesting look
1:01:44at the flipside if you have benefited
1:01:46from 300 years of holding people in
1:01:49servitude thinking that you did it all
1:01:51on your own why can't these people work
1:01:53harder let me see for 300 years you
1:01:55ain't had no job so the reality is for
1:01:57300 years you hold people in the bands
1:01:59you hold them in subordination you
1:02:01refuse to give them rights then all of a
1:02:03sudden you free them and say you're now
1:02:05individuals not having the skills not
1:02:09not having skills
1:02:11reach up to about America first of all
1:02:13I'm some of the American society first
1:02:14of all I'm so about the northern
1:02:15hemisphere I'm come on every society
1:02:17where enslavement has existed but I'm
1:02:19speaking specifically of the repudiation
1:02:21of individual rights among people of
1:02:24color in America who were denied the
1:02:27opportunity to be individuals so I see I
1:02:29obviously an ideal and I think Michelle
1:02:31Goldberg does too
1:02:33agree with the emphasis on individuals
1:02:35what we're saying to you is that we have
1:02:37not been permitted to be individuals we
1:02:39have not been permitted to exercise our
1:02:41individual autonomy and authority and
1:02:43the refusal to do so to recognize me as
1:02:46an individual means when you roll up on
1:02:48me and I'm a 12 year old boy in a park
1:02:49and you shoot first in ways you do the
1:02:52black hands that you don't do the white
1:02:54kids you are not treating that person as
1:02:56an individual if we're living in a
1:02:58society where women are subject to
1:03:01aberrant forms of horrid patriarchal
1:03:05sexist and misogynist behavior you're
1:03:07not acknowledging the centrality of the
1:03:09individuality of women you are treating
1:03:12them according to a group dynamic and if
1:03:15we if we get beyond the ability of
1:03:17people on the right to understand the
1:03:20degree to which they have operated from
1:03:22the basis of benefit from group identity
1:03:25without having said I am by saying this
1:03:26the great American philosopher Beyonce
1:03:29knows saying that it has been said that
1:03:32racism is so American that if you
1:03:35challenge racism you look like you're
1:03:37challenging America we are challenging
1:03:40inequality we are challenging the
1:03:42refusal to see me as an individual when
1:03:45we overcome that have at it we're all
1:03:47money goes for a moment that I've
1:03:57benefited from my white privilege okay
1:04:00so let's assume now that's fine yeah
1:04:03well that's what you would say so so
1:04:06let's say here let's get precisely this
1:04:09okay was that in a very individual of
1:04:11you let's get precise about this okay
1:04:14it's good precise what degree is my
1:04:16present present level of attainment or
1:04:19achievement a consequence of my white
1:04:21privilege and I don't mean sort've I
1:04:23mean do you mean 5% do you mean 15% do
1:04:27you mean 25% do you mean 75% and what do
1:04:31you propose I do about it how about a
1:04:32tax how about a tax that's like
1:04:35specialized for me so that I can account
1:04:37for my damn privilege you saw that great
1:04:39don't write about it
1:04:41now let's get precise about one other
1:04:43thing okay we'll get precise about one
1:04:46other thing concise yeah
1:04:49precise yes and so if if we can agree
1:04:54and we haven't that the left can go too
1:04:56far which it clearly can't then how
1:04:59would my worthy opponents precisely
1:05:01define when the left that they stand for
1:05:04has gone too far you didn't like equity
1:05:07equality of outcome I think that's a
1:05:09great marker but if you have a better
1:05:10suggestion and won't sidestep the
1:05:13question so let's figure out how I can
1:05:14dispense with my white privilege and so
1:05:17that you can tell me when the left is
1:05:18gone too far since they clearly can and
1:05:21that's what this debate is about about
1:05:22political correctness it's about the
1:05:24left going too far and I think it's gone
1:05:26too far in many ways and I'd like to
1:05:28figure out exactly how and win so the
1:05:30reasonable left could make its
1:05:31descendants again and we could quit all
1:05:33this nonsense
1:05:40do you mind if I answer see what I will
1:05:42answer you but I just want to answer
1:05:43Stephen Fry first because you talked
1:05:45about you know this is how we got Trump
1:05:47unless this is the failure of the left
1:05:48and so I am you know I'm a journalist I
1:05:51went to a ton of Trump rallies during
1:05:53the campaign in different parts of the
1:05:55country and you're right everywhere I
1:05:57went I heard complaints about political
1:05:59correctness you know far more than I
1:06:01heard complaints about say NAFTA but
1:06:05when you asked people what they meant by
1:06:08political correctness you know they
1:06:10called a woman they worked with girl and
1:06:12she got mad at then and you know they
1:06:15could you know you couldn't in public
1:06:16wonder aloud whether the President of
1:06:18the United States was really a Muslim
1:06:20you know they didn't like that they
1:06:22couldn't make gay jokes anymore and so
1:06:24on the one hand you're right and I've
1:06:25written about this I think that when you
1:06:27try to support you know that when people
1:06:30have these prejudices and you try to
1:06:34suppress them it can create a kind of
1:06:38dangerous counter reaction but I also
1:06:40think that you know what they were
1:06:42reacting to again to go to go back to
1:06:45the title this debate what they called
1:06:46political correctness you know the fact
1:06:48that they had to have this or bein black
1:06:51president who they felt talked down to
1:06:52them which is really what they meant I
1:06:55don't see a way around that because that
1:06:58is like I said that's progress
1:07:01so to go to the clip to the question of
1:07:03why the Left goes too far I mean to me
1:07:05it's pretty easy violence and censorship
1:07:09right I'm against violence and I'm
1:07:12against censorship but I also looking
1:07:17around the world right now when the idea
1:07:20that there is this I understand again
1:07:24there is like a problem of kind of
1:07:26left-wing
1:07:27annoyance right there's a lot of things
1:07:30that kind of people random people on the
1:07:34internet in particular are able to swarm
1:07:38individuals and turn kind of stray
1:07:40remarks into social media campaigns and
1:07:43this is often you know completed with
1:07:45political correctness and it's a bad
1:07:47phenomenon I wish there was a way to put
1:07:49an end to it I don't think there there
1:07:50is no way to put an end to it simply by
1:07:52having kind
1:07:53reasonable liberals or reasonable
1:07:55socialists denounce it because it's just
1:07:58a kind of awful phenomenon of modern
1:08:01life and if you want to have a debate
1:08:02about whether social media is terrible
1:08:04for democracy I will be on the gay side
1:08:08but right now where I really disagree
1:08:13well a couple of there's a couple places
1:08:15I really disagree but the idea that the
1:08:19radical left poses a greater threat than
1:08:21the radical right when you see fat like
1:08:23actual fascism ascendant all over the
1:08:26world strikes me as something that you
1:08:29can literally only believe if you spend
1:08:30your life on college campuses so Mike I
1:08:33want to come to you on those Gregg
1:08:35Michele on Jordans point about how does
1:08:38he in a sense get an equal voice in this
1:08:41debate back if it is implied that his
1:08:45participation brings with it this
1:08:47baggage of white privilege that doesn't
1:08:49allow him to see clearly the issues that
1:08:52are before us but that is to be
1:08:54complicit in the very problem itself
1:08:56terminologically your beginning at a
1:08:57point there's already productive and
1:09:00controversial you're saying how can he
1:09:02get his equality back who are you
1:09:04talking about
1:09:05Jordan Peterson trending number one on
1:09:08Twitter
1:09:08Jordan Peterson internationals in an
1:09:12international bestseller I want him to
1:09:14tweet something out about me in my book
1:09:16Jordan Peterson right this is what I'm
1:09:20saying to you why the rage bruh you're
1:09:23doing well but you're a mean man white
1:09:25man and you're gonna get us right
1:09:31I have never seen so much wine and
1:09:34snowflake King there's enough whining
1:09:36here to start a vineyard and what I'm
1:09:39saying to you
1:09:40empirically and precisely when you ask
1:09:42the question about white privilege the
1:09:44fact that you ask it in the way you did
1:09:46dismissive pseudo-scientific
1:09:48non-empirical and without justification
1:09:51a the truth is that white privilege
1:09:54doesn't act according to quantifiable
1:09:57segments it's about the degree to which
1:09:59we are willing as a society to grapple
1:10:01with the ideals of freedom justice and
1:10:05equality upon which is base number two
1:10:07was interesting to me you're talking
1:10:09about not having a collective identity
1:10:10what do you call a nation are you
1:10:12Canadian are you Canadian by yourself
1:10:14are you an individual are you part of a
1:10:17group when America formed its union it
1:10:21did so in opposition to another group so
1:10:25the reality is is that those who are
1:10:27part of group identities and politics
1:10:29denied the legitimacy and validity of
1:10:31those groups in the fact that they have
1:10:33been created thusly and then have
1:10:36resentment against others all I'm asking
1:10:40for is the opportunity that this
1:10:42quotation you talk about the difference
1:10:44between equality of outcome and equality
1:10:47of opportunity that's a state and
1:10:48retried argument hackneyed phrase
1:10:50derived from the halcyon days of the
1:10:53debate over affirmative action are you
1:10:54looking for outcomes that can be
1:10:57determined equally or are you looking
1:10:59for opportunity if you free a person
1:11:01after a whole long time of oppression
1:11:04and say now you are free to survive if
1:11:06you have no skills if you have no
1:11:08quantifiable means of existence what you
1:11:11have done is liberated them into
1:11:12oppression and all I'm suggesting to you
1:11:14Lyndon Baines Johnson one of our great
1:11:17president said if you start a man in a
1:11:19race a hundred years behind it is
1:11:22awfully difficult to catch up so I don't
1:11:24think Jordan Peterson is suffering from
1:11:26anything except an exaggerated sense of
1:11:29entitlement and resentment and his own
1:11:32privilege is invisible to him and it's
1:11:34manifest with lethal intensity and
1:11:36ferocity right here on stage
1:11:41responded
1:11:47well what I derived from that series of
1:11:51rebuttals let's say it's twofold the
1:11:54first is that saying that the radical
1:11:56left goes too far when they engage in
1:11:58violence is not a sufficient response by
1:12:02any stretch of the imagination because
1:12:03there are sets of ideas in radical
1:12:05leftist thinking that led to the
1:12:07catastrophes of the 20th century and
1:12:09that was at the level of idea not at the
1:12:12level of violent action it's a very
1:12:13straightforward thing to say you're
1:12:15against violence it's like being against
1:12:17poverty it's like you know generally
1:12:20speaking decent people are against
1:12:22poverty and violence doesn't address the
1:12:24issue in the least and with regards to
1:12:27my privilege or lack thereof
1:12:29I mean I'm not making the case that I
1:12:32haven't had advantages in my life and
1:12:34disadvantages in my life like most
1:12:36people you don't know anything about my
1:12:38background or where I came from it
1:12:39doesn't matter to you because
1:12:40fundamentally I'm a mean white man
1:12:42that's a hell of a thing to say in a
1:12:44debate
1:12:55say Derrick berry brings I want to move
1:12:58on to men and women the mean man white
1:13:02comment was not predicated upon my
1:13:04historical excavation of your past it's
1:13:06based upon the evidence it really speak
1:13:09and the denial of a sense of equanimity
1:13:11among combatants in an argument
1:13:14so I'm saying again you're a mean mad
1:13:16white man and the viciousness is
1:13:18evidence okay
1:13:24where's that change the decks here let's
1:13:27talk about another big factor of the
1:13:30so-called politically correct movement
1:13:31right now which is the me2 movement and
1:13:34the extent to which we've seen this
1:13:36resurgence this awakening around would
1:13:40have been a horrible series of systemic
1:13:42abuses and injustice towards women some
1:13:45people though Michelle would say that
1:13:47we're in a cultural panic now that the
1:13:49pendulum has swung too far and that
1:13:51there is a dangerous overreaction going
1:13:55on where people's rights reputations due
1:13:58process has been thrown to the wind how
1:14:01do you respond to that well first people
1:14:03started saying that within like two
1:14:05weeks of the first Harvey Weinstein's
1:14:08story is breaking right the minute
1:14:10Harvey Weinstein stand and people action
1:14:13men act started actually losing their
1:14:15jobs over this right which was something
1:14:17quite new that men with histories of
1:14:19really serious predatory behavior were
1:14:21suddenly losing their jobs you know
1:14:23everybody had known about it for a long
1:14:25time and there had been a sort of
1:14:27implicit impunity and suddenly that was
1:14:29taken away and it created this cultural
1:14:31earthquake and as soon as it did it
1:14:33created a lot of anxiety like what if
1:14:35this goes too far you know I mean the
1:14:38me2 movement was only a couple of months
1:14:40old when my newspaper started running
1:14:43columns from people saying why can't I
1:14:46criticize me to which they were doing in
1:14:49my newspaper so on the one hand gift of
1:14:53course is due process important
1:14:55obviously I think that when you look at
1:14:58who has actually lost their jobs who's
1:15:01actually lost their livelihoods I mean
1:15:03look around it's people it's not people
1:15:06in general on a you know McCarthy
1:15:09estroux Moritz people who took their
1:15:11dicks out at work it's people who you
1:15:14know there
1:15:15it's people who there was you know ten
1:15:19tens of millions of dollars of
1:15:20settlements and they lost their job for
1:15:22four months and now they're staging
1:15:23comebacks you know Bill O'Reilly is
1:15:25about to get a TV show on a new network
1:15:27so the idea that again this idea that
1:15:32kind of like men everywhere feel like
1:15:34they can't talk anymore and everybody's
1:15:36walking on eggshells and I don't know
1:15:37maybe that's true in in your offices
1:15:40it's it's not true where where I live
1:15:43you know and the me to movement has been
1:15:46particularly active in in media you know
1:15:50there was this this thing I don't know
1:15:52how many of you guys read about the
1:15:53shitty media Mentalist a woman wrote
1:15:56about she started this sort of open
1:15:59source document where women could lift
1:16:01men and media that everybody knew about
1:16:04but nobody had ever done anything about
1:16:06and it very quickly went public and
1:16:09there was something sort of disturbing
1:16:10in it right you don't like these
1:16:11anonymous accusations floating around
1:16:14most feminists I know including myself
1:16:17or kind of you know freaked out by it
1:16:20and thought it was unfair to have
1:16:22people's reputations held up like this
1:16:25but if you look at what happened to the
1:16:27men on the list nothing you know they
1:16:30still have their jobs I know men on that
1:16:32list I work with men on that list the
1:16:34people who actually people have only by
1:16:37and as far as I can think in media the
1:16:39people who have lost their jobs and lost
1:16:41their careers it's been four extremely
1:16:44serious misbehavior documented by
1:16:48multiple women who had corroborating
1:16:51witnesses and so again I understand this
1:16:53anxiety that relations between men and
1:16:56women are changing of course that causes
1:16:58a lot of cultural anxiety but I don't
1:17:00know that it's rooted in anything real
1:17:02they get his view on this are we
1:17:03intercultural panic is the response
1:17:05Michelle says commensurate with the
1:17:08moment I'm very confused by this of
1:17:11course I you know I recognize the best
1:17:14reality of Weinstein and the monstrosity
1:17:17of his behavior and it was shocking to
1:17:20me I actually worked from script
1:17:22doctoring because it's called and I
1:17:24never had the bathroom toe
1:17:28but for pretty obvious reasons but it's
1:17:31you know grotesque and I can't imagine
1:17:34how vile it must be for such a powerful
1:17:36man and he was I used to play a game at
1:17:39the Cannes Film Festival where these
1:17:41years of power we're walking from one
1:17:44hotel at them at the end there all the
1:17:47way up to the Palais des festival you
1:17:50would get 10 points every time you heard
1:17:52the word Harvey and you'd usually a
1:17:5510-minute walk you'd have a 300 points
1:17:57because it was ER Harvey's got the
1:17:59script Harvey's got it yep I've got a
1:18:01meeting with Harvey at the Majestic in
1:18:03the afternoon he was immensely powerful
1:18:04and I think that's obvious that someone
1:18:07in that position abusing and threatening
1:18:11and hindering the livelihood of women is
1:18:14is grotesque and in the extreme but I
1:18:17have to tell you there is genuine
1:18:19feeling amongst many people I know that
1:18:22that we can't speak our minds we can't
1:18:25actually speak to the true nuance the
1:18:28true depth of sexual romantic feeling
1:18:32between men and women it's not a subject
1:18:34I'm absolutely expert on but it counts
1:18:36between men and men as well though I
1:18:38know when it's men and men you might say
1:18:40well that's different because they're
1:18:42women have had a different experience in
1:18:44history and I don't want to enter that
1:18:45particular feel but I would say that
1:18:48there is real fear in my business which
1:18:53is where this all started
1:18:54show business acting and so on yeah
1:18:56people are rather afraid to speak about
1:18:59a piece of you know publicity that's
1:19:03come out or a statement that's been made
1:19:04you just go yep absolutely and wait for
1:19:07the people that leave the room before
1:19:09you can speak honestly with your friends
1:19:11and that's I've never experienced that
1:19:14in my entire 60 years on this planet
1:19:16this this feeling that and I'm not
1:19:20characterizing feminists as as in East
1:19:22German but it's like that the Stars
1:19:24you're listening you better be careful
1:19:26they're listening and that's a genuine
1:19:28feeling I'm saying that my hand of my
1:19:30heart I'm not saying it to make a point
1:19:32other than the fact that it's true and
1:19:34it's worrying but the sexual
1:19:37misadventures and horror experience is
1:19:39worrying - so the two worries
1:19:41they're not solved let's bring out
1:19:43Jordan on this because you've written
1:19:44and commented about a lot well I think
1:19:51I'm going to point out two things again
1:19:53the first is that my question about when
1:19:56the right when the left goes too far
1:19:58still hasn't been answered and then the
1:20:00second thing I'm going to point out is
1:20:02that you know it's conceivable that I am
1:20:05a mean man you know I mean maybe I'm
1:20:08meaner than some people and not as mean
1:20:10as others I think that's probably more
1:20:12the case but I would say the fact that
1:20:14race got dragged into that particular
1:20:16comment is a better exemplar of what the
1:20:19hell I think is wrong with the
1:20:20politically correct left and anything
1:20:21else that could have possibly happened
1:20:23[Applause]
1:20:31imagine the hurt the anxiety the insult
1:20:41that you might genuinely fill according
1:20:46to what I felt was an appropriate
1:20:47comment of description at the moment of
1:20:50its expression but imagine now those
1:20:54hurt feelings and went okay you feel
1:21:01great you feel great about it's really
1:21:03different I'm not a victim I'm not hurt
1:21:05your pause okay you wouldn't be a victim
1:21:07so what's interesting is that whatever
1:21:11non-traditional feelings of empathy you
1:21:13endure at this particular point the
1:21:17point is imagine then the horrors that
1:21:22so many other others have had to put up
1:21:25with for so long when they are refused
1:21:28to acknowledge their humanity now I take
1:21:31your point seriously so you're let me
1:21:33let me finish let me finish so let me
1:21:35spend to me let me finish so you're not
1:21:37my Inquisition er okay what I'm saying
1:21:40to you is that when you said you were
1:21:42upset that I added the element of race
1:21:44there right when I said mean mad white
1:21:47man well what's interesting is that you
1:21:51may have felt that you were being
1:21:53ascribed a group identity to which you
1:21:55do not subscribe you may have felt that
1:21:57you were being unfairly judged according
1:21:59to your particular race you may have
1:22:01felt that your individual identity was
1:22:03being besmirched by my rather careless
1:22:05characterization of you all of which
1:22:07qualifies for a legitimate you know
1:22:11response to me but also the point we've
1:22:14been trying to make about the refusal to
1:22:16see our individual existence as women as
1:22:19people of color as first Asian people in
1:22:21the light my point simply has been the
1:22:24reason I talked about race in that
1:22:26particular characterization because
1:22:28there's a particular way in which I have
1:22:30come to a city I don't know if there are
1:22:33a lot of black people out here not sure
1:22:35but I constantly come to places and
1:22:38spaces that are not my natural habit
1:22:40and other than intellectual engagement
1:22:42and the love and the fury of rhetorical
1:22:46engagement yes but I often go into
1:22:49hostile spaces where people will not
1:22:50vote in favor from my particular
1:22:52viewpoint because I'm interested as an
1:22:55individual of breaking down barriers so
1:22:58that people can understand just how
1:22:59complicated it is so what I'm saying to
1:23:02you is that I would invite you in terms
1:23:05of the surrender of your privilege to
1:23:06give you a specific specific response
1:23:08come with me to a black Baptist Church
1:23:10come with me to a historically black
1:23:12college come to me to an to an
1:23:15indigenous or First Nations community
1:23:17where we're able to engage in some of
1:23:20the it lovely conversation but also to
1:23:24listen and hear and when I added race to
1:23:28that I was talking about the historical
1:23:29events in ability to acknowledge others
1:23:32pains equally to the one that they are
1:23:34presently enduring so human being well
1:23:42I've seen the sorts of things that
1:23:43you're talking about I happen to be an
1:23:45honorary member of an indigenous family
1:23:47so don't tell me about what I should go
1:23:49see with regards to oppression you don't
1:23:51know anything about me you ask my
1:23:53question I gave you a smile yeah you
1:23:56gave me a generic response in generic
1:23:58raises taste or sports Jordan Peterson I
1:24:00would like for you to come with me
1:24:01Michael Eric Dyson to a black Baptist
1:24:04Church you've been otherwise I would be
1:24:05happy to do that okay all right I'm
1:24:07gonna hook you up I'm gonna hook you up
1:24:09and make sure that happen one more quick
1:24:13round then we're gonna go to closing
1:24:14statements and assume for I want to get
1:24:16your response to why you know a
1:24:18generation from now looking back on this
1:24:20debate we're not going to see this quote
1:24:23so-called politically correct movement
1:24:25in the same way let's say that we now
1:24:26understand the positive contributions of
1:24:28the civil rights movement that that was
1:24:30a movement that advanced a series of
1:24:34ideas about human dignity people who
1:24:37previously didn't have that dignity
1:24:38we're now having another debate another
1:24:41social Veda about different groups and
1:24:43communities that are we're trying to
1:24:46convey a sense of new dignity to them
1:24:49why why won't this be in a sense looked
1:24:51back upon as something positive a
1:24:53generation from now I think people will
1:24:56look back on this debate and and wonder
1:24:58why political correctness wasn't
1:24:59discussed
1:25:05[Music]
1:25:07I said it I said it slippery I mean
1:25:11interesting to hear talk about raising
1:25:13about gender and about because he and
1:25:16it's something that I've thought about a
1:25:19lot and I can learn a great deal about
1:25:21but that's not why I came to this debate
1:25:24I was interested in what I've always
1:25:26been interested in the suppression of
1:25:28language and thought the closing down
1:25:29the rationalist idea that seems
1:25:32beguiling that if you limit people's
1:25:35language it may somehow teach them a
1:25:37different way of thinking something that
1:25:40would have delighted the inventors of
1:25:42George Orwell's new speak for example
1:25:44and it seems to me it's just implausible
1:25:48it doesn't it doesn't work and that's
1:25:51what I mean by empirical it doesn't
1:25:53stand an empirical test it isn't
1:25:55experientially validated as we see from
1:25:59the political landscape now and I worry
1:26:02that we may in the future so I I'm so
1:26:06disappointed that the subject has just
1:26:08revolved around academia which was
1:26:10predictable because that's the sort of
1:26:12crucible in which these elements are
1:26:14mixed but even more disappointed that
1:26:16really I haven't heard from Michelle or
1:26:19or from Professor Dyson as to what they
1:26:21think political correctness is because
1:26:23what they've talked about is basically
1:26:24saying progress in our view is progress
1:26:27well I agree that's you know yeah so it
1:26:30is - and good on progress but how is it
1:26:35you're saying political that what we
1:26:38call it is the greatness you call
1:26:39progress that's what you're supposed to
1:26:41be arguing I want to know what you mean
1:26:43by political correctness well you know
1:26:50the reason a few months ago right you
1:26:53contacted me asked if I wanted to do a
1:26:54debate about identity politics and then
1:26:56you presented me with this resolution
1:26:58and I said well there's like a lot of
1:26:59things that people call political
1:27:00correctness that I'm not going to defend
1:27:02but then I realized who I was debating
1:27:05and and and saw that there was a lot of
1:27:09things that you Jordan Peterson called
1:27:11political correctness that I call
1:27:13progress and and to some extent you to
1:27:16Stephen Fry you know when you talk about
1:27:18it being
1:27:18outrageous to tear that we're not
1:27:20outrageous I won't forward to your mouth
1:27:22but that we shouldn't be tearing down
1:27:23statues of kind of notorious racists
1:27:26that we should just instead be throwing
1:27:28eggs at them you know so those sorts of
1:27:32things if you call them political
1:27:34correctness I call them progress now
1:27:36this feeling of being silenced which I
1:27:38understand although it seems very vague
1:27:41right you kind of are not quite putting
1:27:43your finger on who is silencing you
1:27:44except for a vague fear that if you say
1:27:47something untoward you're going to be
1:27:49the subject of I'm not sure
1:27:52shaming but by what by the advancing
1:28:01that's the point here what I'm saying is
1:28:08that it's it's a feeling it's a feeling
1:28:10that is this sort of intangible result
1:28:14of on right now you've all seen the sort
1:28:17of show trial thing where the person
1:28:19then apologizes I have so much to learn
1:28:21about sexual politics I am really sorry
1:28:24that signed a lawyer crossed out the
1:28:26name of the person it's it's real
1:28:30mistake of our left is that we
1:28:33underestimate the right the right isn't
1:28:36as stupid as we'd like them to be if
1:28:38only they were if only there weren't so
1:28:41cunning so sly so smart so aware of our
1:28:44shortcomings and and I just fear that
1:28:48political correctness is a weapon that
1:28:50they value that the more were the more
1:28:53we tell the world how people should be
1:28:56treated how language should be treated
1:28:58what words are acceptable what attitudes
1:29:00are acceptable what HR meeting is going
1:29:03to tell you in a long pull appointed
1:29:05list about how you look at people all of
1:29:07this is is meat and drink to bad people
1:29:11to malefactors to bad actors I'm not
1:29:14coming myself as one of those bad actors
1:29:15in that sense I mean bad actors in the
1:29:18other sense
1:29:28so there are like I said there are a lot
1:29:31of ways in which I agree with you
1:29:32although I kind of I would like to hear
1:29:35I need to turn it back on you I would
1:29:36like to hear you say you know what are
1:29:40the words that have fallen into
1:29:41disrepute that we think that you think
1:29:43we should be resurrecting right um you
1:29:44to me this is this area of like hotly
1:29:48contested social change right now where
1:29:50a lot of people have gone into disuse
1:29:53it's very often phrases jargon istic
1:29:55slogans heteronormative cisgendered
1:29:59those kind of things that they're just
1:30:01an insult you know imagine you're a
1:30:03young student arriving University and
1:30:04someone's bombarding you with this
1:30:06preposterous hermeneutical nonsense from
1:30:09from from misread textbook so misread
1:30:12Foucault and they say duh
1:30:15and so on because yeah yeah I you know I
1:30:18was at Cambridge England doing it we had
1:30:20a French phase and there's value with
1:30:23that it's an interesting game and it is
1:30:26it's a place to I think I should just
1:30:30really say that the ghost hovering over
1:30:33for me is it's a letter Oscar Wilde
1:30:35wrote and he said to Bozize love you
1:30:37said the fact that you didn't get the
1:30:38degrees is nothing but you never
1:30:40acquired what is sometimes called the
1:30:43Oxford manor and I'll say for that the
1:30:45university manner he said Oscar said I
1:30:49take that to mean the ability to play
1:30:51gracefully with ideas I think that's
1:30:54disappearing from our culture I think
1:30:56it's
1:31:01[Music]
1:31:06it's hard to be the self-deprecating
1:31:09English Menace
1:31:11no idea
1:31:14but no no I got a pretty good idea here
1:31:17today but what's interesting I don't
1:31:20recall in all of you all of us have
1:31:22studied history
1:31:23I don't recall these debates about
1:31:26political correctness happening when
1:31:28people who were in power in absolute
1:31:30power unquestioned power political
1:31:33career is Right political correctness
1:31:36becomes an issue and what I mean by that
1:31:39is people who used to have power
1:31:42who still have power but think they
1:31:45don't who get challenged on just a
1:31:47little bit of what they have and don't
1:31:48want to share toys in the sandlot of
1:31:50life so all of a sudden it becomes a
1:31:52kind of exaggerated grievance now the
1:31:55things you names the bullet points and
1:31:58the cisgender and the heteronormativity
1:32:00and the hetero patriarchy and the
1:32:02capitalist resurgence and the
1:32:04insurrection of subjugated knowledge is
1:32:06to give Foucault some more love or the
1:32:08der ideon deconstruction all that stuff
1:32:11the French phase is still going on with
1:32:12the French frys in America what's
1:32:15interesting is that I didn't hear many
1:32:18complaints of political correctness at
1:32:22the height of the dominance of one group
1:32:25or another but when Martin Luther King
1:32:27jr. who argued for group identity as a
1:32:32black person to provide an opportunity
1:32:34for individual black people to come to
1:32:37the fore they began to make that claim
1:32:40oh not any color political correctness
1:32:42you're siding with those who are against
1:32:45free speech you're siding with those who
1:32:48don't want me as a white person to be
1:32:50recognized in my humanity and what I
1:32:52mean by political correctness is the
1:32:55kind of politics of resultant modes that
1:32:57are articulated by various holders of
1:33:00power at certain levels at various
1:33:02levels that one of the beautiful things
1:33:04about Foucault that I take as opposed to
1:33:07Max Weber is that Foucault said power
1:33:09breaks out everywhere I would think a
1:33:11person who's critical of political
1:33:12correctness like you would appreciate
1:33:14this as opposed to Max Weber who said
1:33:16power is over there in a hierarchical
1:33:18structure where subordination is the
1:33:20demand Foucault said no power breaks out
1:33:22even among people who are in
1:33:23disempowered so you can hurt somebody in
1:33:26your own
1:33:26mmunity what's more politically
1:33:28incorrect than a black Baptist preacher
1:33:30identifying with the first century
1:33:32Palestinian Jew and still loving atheist
1:33:35what's more politically incorrect than a
1:33:36black intellectual going on Bill Maher
1:33:38and defending his ability to continue to
1:33:42have this show despite using the n-word
1:33:44i sir
1:33:46believe in a politically incorrect
1:33:48version when I go as a black Baptist
1:33:50preacher to chastise my fellow believers
1:33:53about their homophobia that goes over
1:33:55like a brick cloud when I come into it
1:33:57arenas like this I understand that my
1:34:00back is up against the wall but I think
1:34:01come sit over here let's say I want to
1:34:08sit on your lap but what I say don't get
1:34:12excited but what I'm saying
1:34:20I see how you've been looking at this so
1:34:23what was it
1:34:24what's interesting is that when we look
1:34:27at the way in which we have societies in
1:34:30a free Canadian Society of the free
1:34:33American society when I look at what is
1:34:35seen as political correctness it to me
1:34:37has been a mass of jumble that has been
1:34:41carved together out of the politics of
1:34:43resentment that powers once held no
1:34:45longer are held freedoms once exercised
1:34:48absolutely must now be shared so I I am
1:34:52in agreeance with both of my gentleman
1:34:54to my right who believe that political
1:34:58correctness has been a scourge but not
1:34:59necessarily the way you think so
1:35:01I think it's been a scourge because
1:35:03those who have been the deployers of
1:35:04power and the beneficiaries of privilege
1:35:07have failed to recognize their
1:35:09particular way and at the end of the day
1:35:11I think that those of us who are free
1:35:14citizens of this country and of America
1:35:17should figure out ways to respect the
1:35:19humanity of the other to respect the
1:35:22individual existence of the other but
1:35:24also respect the fact that there have
1:35:26been barriers placed upon particular
1:35:27groups that have prevented them from
1:35:29flourishing that's all I mean well said
1:35:34I gotta get before we got a closing
1:35:36statement some final words on this topic
1:35:38to Michelle and then you Jordan part of
1:35:41the frustration here is that I think
1:35:43that both of you have radically
1:35:45different ideas of what we're talking
1:35:46about when we talk about political
1:35:47correctness it seems to me that you're
1:35:49talking about politically correctness
1:35:51you mean this kind of feeling of anxiety
1:35:53that a lot of people feel because we all
1:35:55live now in this terrible crowdsource
1:35:58panopticon when you worry that any stray
1:36:01phrase that you use will be if any stray
1:36:03phrase you utter might be used to defame
1:36:05you right and I think that a lot of
1:36:07people feel that anxiety I disagree that
1:36:10that is something that is being solely
1:36:12kind of perpetrated against you know
1:36:15institution kind of Oscar Wilde and
1:36:17figures by I sensorial you know some
1:36:20stories left-wing horde because it's
1:36:23coming from all directions right this
1:36:25phenomenon which sucks is all over the
1:36:28place I mean I get it when I write
1:36:31something critical of the way
1:36:33that the IDF behaved in Gaza
1:36:36you know if it's coming at everyone and
1:36:39I think that there is there's a way in
1:36:43which when it comes at a certain sort of
1:36:46figure and there's a certain set of
1:36:47complaints and you feel unjustly
1:36:51criticized and you feel silenced which
1:36:54again I think is really different than
1:36:55being silenced you call it political
1:36:59correctness and I would like the culture
1:37:01also to be more you know freewheeling I
1:37:04think one solution you know you're not
1:37:06going to kind of get the left to I don't
1:37:11know they can't kind of put an end to
1:37:12this because it is much more of a mob
1:37:15social media phenomenon than it is kind
1:37:17of some dicta coming up from on high and
1:37:19so one really the only way to break
1:37:22through it is to say what you are what
1:37:25you say that you're afraid to say right
1:37:27I mean that's the only way to sort of
1:37:30pop this bubble or kind of end this and
1:37:33this anxiety or at least defuse it a
1:37:36little bit whereas again what I hear mr.
1:37:40Peterson talking about as political
1:37:42correctness is something much more broad
1:37:46and much more kind of funded much much
1:37:52more fundamental to social change and
1:37:53you're talking about
1:37:54you know you want me to define or one of
1:37:57us to talk about when the Left goes too
1:37:58far and if I'm you know I certainly
1:38:01don't want to be a woman putting words
1:38:02in your mouth but if if I hear you
1:38:05correctly what you're saying is that you
1:38:07want me to kind of renounce Marxist
1:38:10categories or to do I want you to define
1:38:15with the left goes too far you can do it
1:38:17any way you want I like I said I think
1:38:19that the left goes too far into when it
1:38:22is violent or censorious when it tries
1:38:25to shut people down or no platform them
1:38:27or when it acts violently I I'm not sure
1:38:31what you expect some behind that
1:38:34something deeper how how I'd like you to
1:38:37contend with the set of left-wing ideas
1:38:40that produced all the left-wing
1:38:42pathologies of the 20th century and to
1:38:45define how you think
1:38:46standard left-wing thinking which has a
1:38:48value value I can place where goes too
1:38:51far since it obviously does have the
1:38:54right gone too far
1:38:55of course the right hospital tell us how
1:38:57well how about Auschwitz I mean that's
1:39:03right what else more recently what is
1:39:06gone wrong with the right I'm I don't
1:39:10like identity politics players at all I
1:39:14don't care whether they're on the left
1:39:15of the right I've been lecturing about
1:39:16right-wing extremism for 30 years I'm no
1:39:19fan of the right despite the fact that
1:39:21the left would like to paint me that way
1:39:23because it's more convenient for a bomb
1:39:24so far recently well where it's
1:39:28threatening to go too far and
1:39:29identitarian Europe that's for sure it's
1:39:32gone too far in Charlottesville it went
1:39:34too far in Norway like hollow the list
1:39:36do you want and why am i required to
1:39:38produce that to show you that I don't
1:39:39like so your assumption your assumption
1:39:47is somehow that I must be on the side of
1:39:50the right it's like look the right
1:39:52hasn't occupied the humanities and the
1:39:55Social Sciences it's as simple as that
1:39:57for me if they had I'd be objecting to
1:40:00them say that again that in any event
1:40:02the right has not occupied the social
1:40:05sciences and the humanities and the left
1:40:08clearly has the statistical evidence for
1:40:09that is overwhelming sir what about IQ
1:40:11testing in terms of genetic inheritance
1:40:16I'm sorry we're here to talk about
1:40:18political correctness and we've done a
1:40:19damage on example
1:40:24redeem ourselves with our closing
1:40:25statements I'm going to put three
1:40:26minutes on the clock we're gonna go in
1:40:28the reverse order of the opening so
1:40:29Stephen Europe first there we are hide
1:40:35behind the lexan in that case well I've
1:40:37been fascinated by this conversation
1:40:39there's been an enormous clash of
1:40:40cultures in in the conversation we've
1:40:42had you know classic if I can call it
1:40:44Huck stirring snake-oil pulpit talk
1:40:47which is it's a it's a mode of discourse
1:40:54it's a rhetorical style that I find
1:40:55endlessly refreshing and vivifying but
1:40:59I'm I'm not sure that we actually
1:41:00focused on on the point in question and
1:41:03my objection has always been towards
1:41:06orthodoxies I'm I'm a heterodox and and
1:41:08contrary and then I can't help myself
1:41:10and I think there's been an
1:41:11underestimation of the fact that
1:41:15language does affect people it does make
1:41:17the young in particular as they're
1:41:19starting out on their educational or
1:41:21their work careers it makes them it
1:41:23makes them very anxious it makes them
1:41:25very angry very upset very alienated to
1:41:28feel that they don't know anymore how to
1:41:32operate in the world how to engage in
1:41:35relationships how to think honestly so
1:41:38they they treat more and more to their
1:41:40own mini groups and I think that's
1:41:43dangerous and unhappy for society I
1:41:45think it's reflected in in the paucity
1:41:48of cinema and literature and art and the
1:41:51culture generally is that there's a fear
1:41:54that's pervading it and while people can
1:41:56talk to academia and say you should come
1:41:58see our lessons our lectures are open
1:42:00and free and ideas are exchanged I'm
1:42:02sure that's true I'm sure it's true but
1:42:04I don't think we should underestimate
1:42:06how much this feeling is prevalent in
1:42:12the culture of this strange paradox that
1:42:16the Liberals are a liberal in their
1:42:19demand for liberality they are exclusive
1:42:23in their demand for inclusivity they are
1:42:27homogenous in their demand for
1:42:29heterogeneity they are somehow unda
1:42:34verse in there
1:42:35call for diversity you can be diverse
1:42:37but not diverse in your opinions and in
1:42:40your language and in your behavior and
1:42:42that's a terrible pity so I say that I'm
1:42:51sorry that it got a bit heated in in
1:42:53places because I was hoping it wouldn't
1:42:55I was hoping would be a shining example
1:42:57of how peoples of all different kinds of
1:42:59political outlooks can speak with humor
1:43:03and wit and a lightness of touch as GK
1:43:06Chesterton said angels can fly because
1:43:09they take themselves lightly and I think
1:43:11it's very important for us who are
1:43:13privileged to all four of us privileged
1:43:15to be here to be asked to be here to
1:43:17take ourselves a little bit more likely
1:43:19not to be too earnest too pompous too
1:43:21serious and not to be too certain it's
1:43:26it's a time I think for really engaging
1:43:29emotionally fulfilling passionate and
1:43:32positive doubt that's what I would urge
1:43:37[Music]
1:43:49Michael I'm going to put three minutes
1:43:51on the clock for you please your closing
1:43:56I'm used to not exclusively white men
1:44:00who see black intelligence articulated
1:44:02at a certain level feeling a kind of
1:44:05condescension if I came up here mister I
1:44:08was saying of the day but but a kind of
1:44:11verbal facility automatically assumed to
1:44:14be a kind of hucksterism and snake oil
1:44:16salesmen I've seen that I get it I get
1:44:18hate letters every day from white
1:44:20brothers and sisters who are mad I'm
1:44:21teaching their children you're just
1:44:23trying to co-opt our children you're
1:44:25trying to corrupt them yes I'm trying to
1:44:27corrupt them so they will be uncorrupted
1:44:29by the corrupt ability that they have
1:44:31inherited from a society that refuses to
1:44:34see all people as human beings the death
1:44:38threats I have received constantly for
1:44:39simply trying to speak my mind it's not
1:44:42about a politically correct society that
1:44:44is open minded and that has some
1:44:47consternation about my ability to speak
1:44:49I'm getting real live you want empirical
1:44:52death threats that talk about killing me
1:44:55setting up to hurt me and harm me simply
1:44:58because I choose to speak my mind I
1:45:00agree with my Contreras and my
1:45:02compatriots that we should argue against
1:45:04the vicious limitation and recursions
1:45:06against speech I believe that everybody
1:45:08has the right to be able to articulate
1:45:10themselves and the enormous privilege we
1:45:12have to come to a spot in the space like
1:45:14this means that we have that privilege
1:45:16and we should be responsible for it
1:45:18no matter where we go from here me and
1:45:20brother Peterson will go to a black
1:45:22Baptist Church imma hold him to that he
1:45:25said it on national TV was on go to a
1:45:27black Baptist Church and have an
1:45:29enlightening conversation about the need
1:45:32for us to engage in not only reciprocal
1:45:35and mutual edification but criticism
1:45:37even hard and tough criticism but in a
1:45:41way that speaks to the needs and
1:45:44interests of those who don't usually get
1:45:46on TV whose voices are not usually
1:45:48amplified whose ideas are not usually
1:45:51taken seriously and when they get to the
1:45:53upper echelons of the ability of a
1:45:55society to express themselves they are
1:45:58equally subject to vicious recrimination
1:46:01and
1:46:02hurtful resistance his old story about
1:46:04the pig and the pig and the chicken
1:46:07going down the street and said let's
1:46:08have breakfast the chicken just has to
1:46:15give up an egg the pig has to give up
1:46:17his ass
1:46:18in order to make breakfast we have often
1:46:20been the pigs giving up our asses to
1:46:23make breakfast let's start sharing them
1:46:25asses with everybody else
1:46:27[Applause]
1:46:37so I'm not here to claim that there's no
1:46:42such thing as oppression unfairness
1:46:46brutality discrimination unfair use of
1:46:50power all of those anyone with any sense
1:46:53knows that hierarchical structures tilt
1:46:56towards tyranny and that we have to be
1:46:59constantly wait 'fl to ensure that all
1:47:04they are isn't power in tyranny it's
1:47:06interesting just here Foucault referred
1:47:09to it's unfortunate but it's interesting
1:47:11you know because Foucault like his
1:47:14French intellectual conference
1:47:16essentially believed that the only basis
1:47:19upon which hierarchies were established
1:47:20is power and that's part of this
1:47:22pernicious politically correct doctrine
1:47:24that I've been speaking about
1:47:26when a hierarchy becomes corrupt and the
1:47:29only way to ascend it is to exercise
1:47:31power that's essentially the definition
1:47:33of a tyranny but that doesn't mean that
1:47:35the imperfect hierarchies that we have
1:47:37constructed in our relatively free
1:47:39countries which at least tilt someone
1:47:42towards competence and ability as
1:47:44evidenced by the staggering achievements
1:47:47of civilization that we've managed to
1:47:49produce it doesn't mean that the
1:47:51appropriate way of diagnosing them is to
1:47:52assume without reservation unit
1:47:55dimensionally that they're all about
1:47:56power and as a consequence everyone who
1:47:58occupies any position within them is a
1:48:01tyrant or a tyrant in the making and
1:48:03that is certainly the fundamental claim
1:48:05of someone like Foucault and it's part
1:48:08and parcel of this what would you call
1:48:10it this ideological catastrophe that's
1:48:13political correctness I'm not here to
1:48:15argue against progress I'm not here to
1:48:17argue against equality of opportunity
1:48:19anyone with any sense understands that
1:48:22even if you're selfish you're best
1:48:24served by allowing yourself access to
1:48:27the multiplicities talents of everyone
1:48:29and to discriminate against them for
1:48:31arbitrary reasons unrelated to their
1:48:33competences it's abhorrent that has
1:48:35nothing to do with the issue at hand
1:48:37it's it isn't that good things haven't
1:48:41happened in the past and should continue
1:48:42to happen that's not the point the point
1:48:44is the point my compatriot Frye
1:48:47which is what we can agree on the
1:48:50catastrophe and we can agree on the
1:48:52historic inequity but there's no way I'm
1:48:55going to agree but political correctness
1:48:58is the way to address any of that and
1:49:00there's plenty of evidence to the
1:49:02contrary some of which I would say was
1:49:04displayed quite clearly tonight
1:49:16so I think one of the irresolvable
1:49:21issues that we're all coming up against
1:49:23is the role of feelings right Stephen
1:49:26Fry has kind of asked us to recognize
1:49:30and empathize with this feeling of being
1:49:32silenced of being threatened and I do
1:49:36and I get it you know I feel it
1:49:38sometimes too and my columns I hate it
1:49:41when I write something that then you
1:49:44know gets a kind of irate Twitter mob
1:49:46after me but if say I stood up here and
1:49:52said you know recognize how threatened
1:49:55so many women feel when for example
1:49:59that's the kind of you know one of the
1:50:01best-selling and most prominent
1:50:03intellectuals in the world right now
1:50:04says in an interview that maybe the me
1:50:07to movement has shown that this whole
1:50:09experiment of men and women working
1:50:11together is just not working or you know
1:50:14maybe if women don't want to be don't
1:50:17want the workplace to be sexualized they
1:50:19shouldn't be allowed to wear makeup
1:50:20right so you though well Google
1:50:23interview Google it yeah well so so
1:50:27right it's on say like you know I feel
1:50:30threatened right then I'm being kind of
1:50:33politically correct and hysterical so
1:50:35much of the debate about political
1:50:38correctness but there's one group that
1:50:40really does think it's feelings should
1:50:43be accommodated and that is what we keep
1:50:46coming up against is that you know
1:50:49there's a group of people and it to some
1:50:52extent I'm part of it that feels
1:50:54uniquely that our feelings of being
1:50:57silenced marginalized censored that
1:51:01those feelings need to take primacy that
1:51:04we can kind of you know sneer when these
1:51:08other groups asked for us to take
1:51:12seriously their feelings of being
1:51:15threatened or their feelings of being
1:51:17marginalized then we caught we call that
1:51:20we called those demands political
1:51:23correctness and I would finally say that
1:51:26I think there's a fair amount
1:51:27research that people become more
1:51:30close-minded more tribal when they feel
1:51:34threatened when they feel that their
1:51:35group identity is at stake and so as
1:51:39much as you know you want to blame the
1:51:43left for the rise of the right I think
1:51:45that when you kind of get the rise of
1:51:48the right the rise of people who are
1:51:51questioning the fundamental ideals of
1:51:54pluralistic liberal democracy the more
1:51:57those views are mainstreamed the more
1:52:00people I think are going to shut down in
1:52:02response because people are really
1:52:04scared
1:52:13well first of all I think on behalf of
1:52:15all the debaters I think we want to
1:52:16thank the audience you were engaged
1:52:18we're mostly civil and not so civil in
1:52:22ways I think that we enjoy it so I think
1:52:24on behalf of the debaters everybody
1:52:25thank you audience this was a
1:52:27challenging topic you did a great job a
1:52:33big thank you to our debaters you know
1:52:36it's one thing all of these four give
1:52:38regular speeches but it's a very
1:52:40different thing to come on infront to
1:52:42stage in front of a live audience a
1:52:44large television audience and have your
1:52:46ideas contested in real time and again
1:52:51to all four of you thank you for
1:52:53accepting our invitation to come here
1:52:56[Music]
1:53:04so a few final notes first thank you to
1:53:08the OREA foundation the Munk family for
1:53:10once again convening us here at Roy
1:53:13Thompson Hall we're gonna do it all
1:53:14again this coming autumn all of you have
1:53:17a ballot here in the hall you can vote
1:53:19on your way out we'll have those results
1:53:21for you just probably after 9:15 and
1:53:27let's just quickly review where your
1:53:29opinions stood at the beginning of
1:53:31tonight's contest on the motion be it
1:53:35resolved what I call political
1:53:37correctness what you call political
1:53:38correctness I call progress 36% agree
1:53:4164% disagree and again we saw a large
1:53:44percentage of you willing to change your
1:53:46mind
1:53:4687 percent so let's see how tonight's
1:53:50cut and thrust affected your voting here
1:53:54you've got your ballots and again to
1:53:57those of you who are watching online we
1:53:59are going to have all these results for
1:54:02you on our social media feeds around
1:54:039:15
1:54:04so enjoy the long weekend happy
1:54:07Victorian to everyone thanks for coming
1:54:08out to the month today's
1:55:01[Music]
1:55:10and Stephen Fry right now to get their
1:55:12reactions to tonight's debate some hotly
1:55:17contested moments here so it would be
1:55:18curious to see what happens with the
1:55:20audience vote over the course of the
1:55:23next few minutes and also for those of
1:55:24you watching online we have that hour
1:55:26running pull that poll again was w w
1:55:30month debates calm forward slash votes
1:55:33so go there check out see how each of
1:55:37these debaters did in terms of their
1:55:38opening statements that are rebuttals
1:55:40the moderated section and the closing
1:55:42statements if we see any changes there
1:55:44so again we're gonna go right now to
1:55:46Stephen Fry Jordan Peterson get their
1:55:48thoughts on how the evening played out
1:55:55gentlemen thank you thank you discussion
1:56:00with the online audience watching right
1:56:02now just to get your reactions to the
1:56:05debate and maybe just start with you
1:56:06Jordan there were some heated moments
1:56:08here did that that surprised you that
1:56:10exchanges that you had with Michael Eric
1:56:13Dyson well I wouldn't say it surprised
1:56:16me well I suppose it probably did it
1:56:17just seemed didn't seem like a very good
1:56:19tactical move you know and I stand by
1:56:22what I said I don't see any reason at
1:56:24all that my racial identity needed to be
1:56:27dragged into the discussion independent
1:56:28of my personality proclivity I would say
1:56:31what I just said to mr. Frye here is
1:56:33that it was a pleasure sharing the stage
1:56:34with him I've rarely heard anyone ever
1:56:37deliver their convictions with such a
1:56:40remarkable sense of passion and wit and
1:56:44forbearance and erudition it was it was
1:56:47really something yeah it's Steven geing
1:56:49debate because in a sense we're trying
1:56:50to mesh to different views here to
1:56:52different worldviews one very focused
1:56:54more on identity politics group identity
1:56:56you in a sense having an argument really
1:56:58more about the larger culture itself and
1:57:01tenor and tone of the conversation was
1:57:04being a little kind of scattergun really
1:57:05and that bets got the gun and two
1:57:08specific that I just taken very
1:57:10literally the popular idea of
1:57:11correctness is being a kind of control
1:57:15of language and a shutting down certain
1:57:17phrases or
1:57:18introduction of others and and and the
1:57:21the kind of day-to-day as I say human
1:57:23resource departments of corporations and
1:57:25that that sort of thing and so I was
1:57:29slightly disappointed that it just
1:57:31became a debate about race and about
1:57:33gender and so on but that was I guess
1:57:36natural and I still think that the fact
1:57:38is I I I'm still a lefty but a soft one
1:57:42I just don't have what I flap II squashy
1:57:47in every sense
1:57:48and and I realized that's not a
1:57:50political point of view it is a personal
1:57:52right and the the gap between the
1:57:56personal and the political which is a
1:57:58space you obviously very interested in
1:57:59as a psychologist is one that is rarely
1:58:02explored people are either so personal
1:58:06that it has no application in the
1:58:08outside world and the organization of
1:58:10human affairs or they're so political
1:58:12and so much to do with structure and
1:58:14distinguish between hierarchies and
1:58:16networks and so on that they forget the
1:58:19individual and that's the space in which
1:58:21the impassioned liberal lives and it's
1:58:24not easy to do it because you often do
1:58:26sound rather way thank you for coming me
1:58:30just finally before I for you to both to
1:58:33a well-earned drink anything left unsaid
1:58:36Jordan any any point that you wanted to
1:58:38make that you didn't feel you had the
1:58:40time or the opportunity no great same
1:58:45question to you see I know I think I got
1:58:47across I mean there's so much you can
1:58:49talk in that field and I I just wanted
1:58:51to leave with the point that I do want
1:58:53like everybody it's it's it's a no
1:58:55brainer we want the world to be fairer
1:58:56just a sweeter kinder but it's how you
1:59:00get there and I felt I wasn't really
1:59:03addressed okay well gentlemen thank you
1:59:05both very much from our online audience
1:59:07a big thank you also I know
1:59:09- Jordan Peterson and Stephen Fry for
1:59:11participating in yeah a debate with some
1:59:13steaks on the table for sure thank you
1:59:15gentlemen
1:59:16see you never separate yeah but yeah
1:59:17again online viewers we've now have
1:59:21Michael Eric Dyson coming into the
1:59:23camera range here with Michelle Goldberg
1:59:25to get their reactions to the debate so
1:59:28guys thank you for being part of this
1:59:31you know with
1:59:32it's a complicated subject it's got a
1:59:34lot of different moving pieces and
1:59:36elements I think we address some of the
1:59:38constituent parts maybe start with you
1:59:40Michelle was there something on stage
1:59:43that you wanted to say that maybe we
1:59:45didn't have the time or you didn't have
1:59:47the opportunity you know now's your
1:59:49chance you know I guess I if the only
1:59:52thing I can think of is that maybe I
1:59:53wish that we could have drilled down a
1:59:55little bit more into the gender piece of
1:59:57this and again to you know what we're
2:00:00really arguing about particularly with
2:00:03mr. Peterson and the kind of range of
2:00:06progress or the range of feminist
2:00:08progress that he considers political
2:00:12correctness I think part of the
2:00:14frustration is that him and Stephen Fry
2:00:16are talking about and defending I think
2:00:19a fairly discrete set of ideas with some
2:00:21overlap you know and one of the
2:00:24difficult things about political
2:00:25correctness is it's a slippery term
2:00:27that's deployed to talk about a whole
2:00:30range of phenomenon yeah and closed-down
2:00:33conversation and open up conversation
2:00:35yeah how did you feel
2:00:37Michael there are some points there some
2:00:39you know points of sharp exchange we
2:00:40appreciate that at the Munk debates I
2:00:42mean this is not a place for for you
2:00:44know shrinking wallflowers but any
2:00:47unsaid thoughts any anything that you
2:00:50want to put a point on now I think you
2:00:53have to hold people intellectually
2:00:54accountable and to deny some of the
2:00:57things to Michelle that he said and to
2:01:00present himself mr. Peterson in a
2:01:01certain way without seeing some of the
2:01:03abhorrent things he said about women and
2:01:06other minorities I think demands an
2:01:09engaged response to him and I think that
2:01:13the idea itself as Michelle stated
2:01:15repeatedly and and mr. Frey talked about
2:01:18his frustration he said we talk about
2:01:19everything but political correctness
2:01:20well the reality is political
2:01:23correctness resides
2:01:24I mean rests upon some serious political
2:01:26work in this culture in the Canada and
2:01:29in America that needs to be done and
2:01:31what I tried to in terms of giving a
2:01:33brief genealogy we didn't have political
2:01:35correctness as long as white straight
2:01:36men were in charge there was no argument
2:01:39about let's get this right but when
2:01:42people who exercise power know
2:01:45longer exercise absolute power still
2:01:47predominant power then there's an
2:01:49argument and I think Michelle's point
2:01:51about gender about the workplace about
2:01:54race about sexuality and the like I just
2:01:57think that it was a necessarily vigorous
2:02:00and sometimes sharply worded a debate
2:02:02between so Michelle final word to you
2:02:05well if you are curious about the quote
2:02:11that I mentioned about you know maybe
2:02:13this experiment with women and men
2:02:15working together maybe it's not working
2:02:17I mean please do google it it's an
2:02:18interview advice again I know me and
2:02:26Stephen me and Stephen Fry probably
2:02:28could have sat on the same side of
2:02:30another debate but again I feel like the
2:02:34phrase political correctness has
2:02:36expanded to cover a whole range of
2:02:39challenges to I thought it was really
2:02:42interesting how much people were talking
2:02:44about their feelings because when when
2:02:46women talk about their feelings right
2:02:48that is politically correct excess and
2:02:51right when one men talk about this
2:02:56feeling that they can't empirically
2:02:57define we should all I guess I don't
2:03:00know change change and deference to that
2:03:03okay guys great thoughts let's go get a
2:03:05drink in the reception okay thanks
2:03:09thanks again hey online viewers thank
2:03:11you for being part of this Monk debate
2:03:14as I mentioned these debates are
2:03:16semiannual we'll have another one this
2:03:18fall we've got a whole archive of past
2:03:19debates on our website on a whole range
2:03:22of topics going back over a decade now
2:03:25and you can access those free by simply
2:03:27becoming a member at ww monke debates
2:03:30calm go to the basic membership it's
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2:03:38finally check us out on on Facebook a
2:03:41thank you for the 26,000 new follows in
2:03:45the last ten days we appreciate it
2:03:47this debate will be archived on our web
2:03:49site for the next while again for free
2:03:52so share it with friends and family I'm
2:03:54Roger Griffiths from downtown Toronto
2:03:57Canada at the Munk debate on political
2:03:58rectus see you again in the autumn take
2:04:01care good night
2:04:11you

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