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Pesquisa acadêmica: Instituto de Pesquisa Kaya Flor - Lucas, Anne e Yasmim - Podcast Animal 228 — Transcript

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0:00Okay, so here's another episode of our
0:41animal podcast. I'm André Bucão, a
0:43veterinarian. Today we have Lucas,
0:46Yasmin, and Anne here to talk a little
0:48about the research they're developing,
0:50right? Let you introduce yourselves.
0:55Nice to meet you, my name is Lucas, I'm
0:58a veterinarian, uh, a professor at the
1:01University Center and CESP, and I have
1:04the opportunity here today to talk a
1:07little with you about our work. Thank
1:10you very much for that. Thank you again
1:12, Professor, for this opportunity.
1:16Nice to meet you too, Yasmin. Thank you
1:18, Andreia, for the opportunity. Now he
1:19said, it's a great gift to be here, and
1:22I'm also a veterinary medicine student.
1:25I'm finishing my course today and I'm
1:27with this team.
1:29Thank you, André, for the opportunity.
1:31Again, my name is Anne, I'm a
1:33veterinary medicine student. Uh, and
1:36today I'm also here representing the
1:37Caiaflor Research Institute.
1:40So, what is your research about? So
1:44it's complicated to label research in a
1:46specific area, right? Sometimes we have
1:51to write a project for FAP, FNEP, or
1:53even for ourselves, and label an area.
1:57But saying it's One Health,
1:59neurophysiology, surgical recovery, new
2:05drugs—it's difficult to label what a
2:07research is, right? Especially when
2:11it's inherited from other researchers,
2:13from other masters, right? And we take
2:18that as a label in itself, but today
2:21it's based on the neurophysiology of
2:25wound healing and the search for new
2:28drugs, but it's based on medicinal
2:32plants. And how did you come up with
2:34the idea?
2:42Well, since 2017, due to my first
2:43undergraduate degree, I had the
2:45opportunity to do a PIBIC (
2:46Institutional Scholarship Program for
2:47Scientific Initiation Scholarships) at
2:49UnB (University of Brasília). So, I
2:51kind of ended up liking being with
2:52these master's, doctoral, post-doctoral
2:54students and the professors. So, in
2:582022, I decided to start my
2:59undergraduate studies, and I
3:01immediately sought out the coordinators
3:04because I already had a background in
3:06academic leagues and laboratory work. I
3:10approached the coordinator to form a
3:12group focused on wild plants, you know,
3:14Leaz. In 2023, Lucas joined the
3:17institution, and after a conversation,
3:19we asked ourselves: "Why don't we start
3:20working with phytotherapeutics in order
3:22to conduct research on the subject of
3:24cannabis?" And it was at the beginning
3:29of 2023 that our routine with
3:32scientific research began, along with
3:36Lucas, Yasmin, and the team at the
3:39university, in 2023. Exactly, due to
3:42the need
3:46for a new protocol, which may be recent
3:49, and which could be an ally in our
3:51clinical practice. As we presume, of
3:56course, that each patient needs a
3:58particular protocol, and we adapt it
4:01accordingly, but precisely that's what
4:04we do: monitor these patients and have
4:06a new protocol to offer something safer
4:09and more comfortable, right? That's
4:13very interesting, isn't it, André?
4:16Because what we talk about—I grew up
4:20with my father, a professor, saying
4:23that it's the student who makes the
4:26university, not the university that
4:30makes the student. Regardless of the
4:36inherent sensitivity of the material
4:39that we are researching, it is clear
4:41that the research process itself
4:46remains complicated to conduct, whether
4:49within federal institutions or within
4:51private ones. And having the support of
4:55Professor Gisele, the course
4:58coordinator, given this situation and
5:01her interest, was fundamental for us to
5:04be here three years later bearing fruit
5:07. Of course, it is logical that these
5:10fruits began from research conducted
5:13over 50 years ago by my academic
5:15advisors. And today, for example, Anne
5:18is developing laboratory work that she
5:21also inherited from her other
5:24background, which is biomedicine. So,
5:28let's label and explain this research a
5:30little better—this one is amazing. So
5:35, I used it as a basis for research I
5:37did with colloidal silver water. I used
5:42the water diffusion technique, but I
5:43used the well technique. So, where I
5:46would place the antibiogram disc, I
5:48placed colloidal silver water. And
5:50years later I thought, what if we use
5:52this with cannabis? And we had training
5:56in growth inhibition classes. The test
5:58was with Pseudomonas zeaxanthinosa and
5:59Escherichia coli. And now we tested it
6:03with cryptococcus, we also had
6:05inhibition, uh, we tested it with some
6:07Candida species as well, we had
6:09inhibition of the growth of these
6:11microorganisms, and now we are waiting
6:14for results from the congresses,
6:18uh, to give back to academia what
6:24academia gave to us, right? So there is
6:27no profession. I think no profession
6:30exists if it is not supported by
6:33academia. And nothing is more fair than
6:36for us to give this back to academia.
6:39Uh, to give back with good research the
6:42importance of new drugs. She said that
6:45her project demonstrated control over
6:48Candida strains. So, this being done
6:51within a private university, uh, by a
6:54genius. Great, but she had an interest,
7:01she sought it out, and she knows it
7:03wasn't on the first try, it wasn't on
7:06the second, it wasn't on the third. So,
7:10uh, resilience in research is
7:12fundamental. Uh, and many times we take
7:16a lot more hits like, "Oh, it won't
7:18work,""Oh, there are many mistakes and
7:21many successes." And to substantiate
7:24this, it takes a long road. So, the
7:27road they are following is beautiful.
7:31It's an example, I think, not only for
7:32those of us who have been around for a
7:34long time, but for everyone. And to be
7:37part of this journey, I'm very happy.
7:40This other one here, Professor André,
7:43she came to me one fine day and said: "
7:47Hey, do you prescribe this stuff? It's
7:50been a while. There's a patient from
7:52the other clinic who doesn't prescribe
7:54it." Then I said, "No, Yasmin, but it's
7:56from the other clinic. If you want, we
7:58can go there. Look, I already spoke
8:01with the owner of the clinic, I told
8:03the staff to come here and meet you."
8:06Then I said, "Okay, let's see her here,
8:08see what we can use." To summarize the
8:12story, it was a dog that had several
8:15epileptic seizures. Our medication at
8:21the time proved effective under her
8:23conditions. However, the difficulty of
8:27access...at a certain point they had to
8:33take her to the clinic and the overdose
8:36killed her. We know this is common, but
8:40that's not the outcome itself. The
8:44trajectory allowed her to generate a
8:47thesis, sorry, to help other patients.
8:51So her thesis...had other cases, it
8:53generates research foundations to this
8:56day, it generates research, so you see
8:58that they are two extremes that
9:00complement each other, right? It's
9:03difficult for us to say where I come in
9:08with neurophysiology, perhaps
9:11learning much more from them than
9:13teaching them. Right? Uh, uh, looking
9:15for new difficulties, new adversities
9:18for us to try to solve together. I
9:21think that's what it's about. What we
9:23noticed regarding cannabis was that
9:30people had difficulty with those
9:33alphabet soup terms, understanding what
9:36CBD, THC, and CBG were, and it was very
9:40confusing. The SEC, well, now has a
9:44system; it was all backwards, and now
9:46it's good. So, a lot of things were
9:52passed on incorrectly. And I think
9:57academia also has a role to play, I
10:00won't say to retract, but to reconcile.
10:08It's about reconciling, evolving with
10:10the topic. And Caia Flor does that;
10:14it's becoming more and more mature in
10:17this process, right? So, other
10:21associations like Sou Cannabes, other
10:23associations like Camed, other
10:25associations like your colleagues
10:32Rafa's, Apocan,
10:34Apocan, other associations have been
10:36contacting us today to carry out this
10:39type of research. Uh, I'm happy about
10:42that too. Ibris is an association
10:46managed by reserve military personnel,
10:50believing...Also in our work. This
10:54shows, right, that the academy is
10:57fulfilling its role as a whole. So I'm
11:02very happy about that, right? Talk a
11:05little bit about it.
11:07Is all this crazy? It's only possible
11:09because we have people supporting each
11:11other, especially, right? Our head, our
11:14master here, if it weren't possible,
11:16it's what
11:17we said at the beginning, right, André
11:19? Uh, there's only a crisis in
11:21veterinary medicine because of the lack
11:26of unity, right? And when there's this
11:29complementarity, well, we're the best
11:31there, we're the best there, correcting
11:33the worst here, right? Yes, man, this
11:37collaboration is essential even for you
11:40to be
11:41able to develop not only our profession
11:44, but also these research areas. Yes,
11:48because I believe there must still be
11:51some resistance.
11:53Certainly,
11:54because cannabis is still not seen as a
12:03treatment possibility, but there's
12:05still a certain prejudice against it. I
12:08think this prejudice, right, it should
12:13be treated very simply, with scientific
12:17data, right, with the supply of this
12:23knowledge. Uh-huh.
12:26And this supply needs to come from real
12:29sources that actually live this, that
12:31actually seek this, right? So that
12:37research like the one that showed
12:40marijuana killed neurons doesn't happen
12:44again. That's
12:46a classic, right? And we know that this
12:50research didn't pass the ethics
12:52committee, right? It was rich in the
12:57absence of oxygen, and the absence of
13:00oxygen and carbon dioxide caused the
13:05hypoxia that killed the neurons. So
13:07this was replicated for a long time.
13:12That's why I think it's not only the
13:14role of the university, but of academia
13:17as a whole, to reconcile itself with
13:20the truth. We know the role of the
13:25endocannabinoid system in evolution for
13:27millions of years. We know the role of
13:31cannabis. Before synthetic
13:34pharmaceuticals existed, as we know
13:36them today, right? About 150 years ago,
13:42there
13:43wasn't pyrone as we know it today,
13:47right? So you needed to take the plant
13:50and work with it. That's why today our
13:54institute isn't just about cannabis.
13:58There are several other plants with
14:01ancestral healing power, like Copaiba,
14:04like Baru, right?
14:06Which need a lot of use, like Buriti.
14:11Buriti, man. It's amazing, it gives you
14:14goosebumps
14:16in the most beautiful places where
14:17Andrezão has Buriti. I treated a
14:23rescued dog, man; within 10 to 15 days,
14:25it was completely healed up.
14:27Look, you
14:28understand?
14:28Using only Buriti oil.
14:30Is that right with Buriti oil? Great.
14:32That's right.
14:32With Buriti oil that I use, that my
14:34godmother produces in Bahia. It comes
14:35raw.
14:35Good. Good stuff. It comes. We could do
14:38a partnership with this oil, Andrezão.
14:41You see the opportunity for us to
14:43develop some cool research, both with
14:45Trocavete and Essencial.
14:48No, now I'm here to show you why I can
14:54get the raw oil from her. That's
14:58great, huh?
14:59You know? So he doesn't It comes from
15:01the way they do it there, I can get it
15:03from her.
15:05Today we are reaping the rewards of
15:08having partners like Professor Fernanda
15:12Vasconcelos from the Chemistry
15:15Institute doing analysis and Diogo Cobo
15:19from UFSC also analyzing our products.
15:24So, uh, chemistry, right, what we are
15:27is multifactorial. Uh-huh. Uh,
15:30multi-disciplinary, right? So,
15:35let's do this, Andrezão. The research
15:37opportunity for us. I know that our
15:40professors, right, they will also help
15:42us in this process.
15:44Buriti oil, imagine completing it, very
15:47good,
15:51an atomic bomb for the skin, right, for
15:53skin regeneration. It's very good. My
15:55mother also takes it, but I think
15:57that's an exaggeration.
15:59It's
16:00because my mother makes some crazy
16:02mixtures for her to take.
16:05I learned a lot from my grandmother
16:07when she wasn't...
16:08My mother sells a lot of these things,
16:10man. But she makes some crazy mixtures.
16:15My grandmother's crazy mixtures. It was
16:18good. For example, I learned that aloe
16:22vera, you know, babosa, with melva for
16:25gastritis. My father used to make it
16:29and I never had gastritis again. So,
16:31that's
16:31great.
16:32Uh, that's what it's
16:34about. Before, I think most of the
16:38synthetic drugs today came from this
16:41ancestral heritage of nature, you know,
16:43from plants. So, at some point we lost
16:48that. It
16:50is important that we reclaim that, even
16:53more so when we speak of a profession
16:56which is the pillar of the One Health
16:59concept, as it involves the human being
17:02, the animal, and the environment in a
17:05direct and interconnected way. Yes, it
17:08was.
17:12Wow. Let me see how old this photo is.
17:15December 28th.
17:20December 28th.
17:21December 30th.
17:23Wow, that's great.
17:24Damn, granulation tissue is amazing.
17:27The edges have already joined. And
17:29that's
17:30just BTI oil twice a day, man.
17:33And this one is from the 31st. Do
17:37you have an analysis of them? No.
17:39So, let's do that. Together. Professor
17:42Fernanda, Diogão, everyone,
17:46I really like, I really like bruti oil
17:47because of that. And because it's the
17:50kind of thing that dogs in a house
17:52don't have a problem licking,
17:55so it's
17:55going to be good, you know? And that's
17:58very important, right? Because what we
18:01were talking about, sometimes we work
18:03with things that it's inevitable
18:06they'll lick, they'll ingest. If we're
18:10not careful, for example, uh, it's bad
18:15to say this because I'm not speaking
18:17ill of the pharmaceutical industry.
18:20And the gold standard is a healing
18:23ointment that is based on petrolatum,
18:28on petroleum. And you're going to put
18:30that on the skin knowing that it causes
18:32cancer. I don't know, right? Studies
18:34say yes. Uh-huh.
18:36So there's a, you know, there's
18:40a very large gap that needs to be
18:43filled, right? Oh, if they keep licking
18:46it, they'll also get sick, uh, they'll
18:48get poisoned. So there's a very large
18:52gap that I think science has the role
18:55of filling. Uh, it was left empty, this
18:58space was left empty. So, by This
19:01conversation of ours, the search for
19:05new data, for substantiating this data,
19:09but that sometimes takes years, decades
19:12, right? And, and, and people don't
19:17have that patience, that resilience,
19:20that determination. Because we're going
19:27to start working with buriti oil, it's
19:32a process, like you said: the congress,
19:35ah, an international journal, ah, a
19:37postgraduate course...Here it comes,
19:40right? And imagine when we also say
19:44that it came from others. So sometimes
19:4750 years of research forming a team,
19:50for example, in the defense of my
19:54doctorate, my advisor, Professor
19:57Marília, she was with Professor Tomás
20:00on the examining board. So, look how
20:04beautiful that is, right? Passing from
20:07one to another. A generation of
20:09research that started with him, we
20:12finished bringing a result together and
20:14he said: "Lucas, I remember it to this
20:17day, right? Good research isn't the one
20:22that concludes anything, it's the one
20:24that opens doors for new research.""So,
20:29in reality, it will bring ideas for
20:30other research to improve what you've
20:32done, and then the other person will
20:33try to improve what you've done, and it
20:35will evolve
20:37and be transformed, right? And the
20:40academy is fed, and data is generated,
20:44improving what Yasmin said, what was
20:47the immediate benefit for my patient,
20:54but it's built through a lot of time
20:57and determination. And it's important
21:00for us to say that. No research is done
21:04overnight, and she knows how much we
21:07knock on other people's doors, right?
21:11Only others help us.
21:14It's crazy. And there's also the
21:16bureaucratic part of all this, right?
21:19There is that,
21:21because nowadays you have much more
21:23legislation, bureaucracy, and things
21:25than you had 50 or 60 years ago. And
21:31it's a good thing. What happens? We are
21:34witnesses to this from real life,
21:36especially regarding cannabis. Every
21:40time we get close to being perfect,
21:42there's an adjustment and a change in
21:45the law, and we end up owing something.
21:47" Something happens, or something gets
21:49left behind, I notice something. And
21:52that's complicated, right? It often
21:56puts our work at risk. Uh, having good
22:01partners helps us to ground this in the
22:04best way. Many times today, related to
22:08cannabis, many deputies also call us to
22:10better understand this scenario. It's
22:14complicated to talk about it like that,
22:17because there's no resolution overnight
22:20, but it needs to be worked on. Uh,
22:24she's a biomedical scientist. Today she
22:26signs as RTia Flor, but there's a whole
22:33process behind it to get there. So,
22:41many times this path causes people to
22:44give up. Uh, and it's not about giving
22:51up, it's about transformation. Oh, okay
22:54, this path didn't work, I don't want
22:56this, it's not important for my patient
22:59to be well treated immediately. So, how
23:02are we going to manage this problem?
23:06Because it's a bureaucratic problem,
23:08right? It could be solved very easily,
23:12but it takes a lot of time and energy.
23:18We can say this to Andrezão, who's
23:20like family. How many times have we
23:23gone to the government...And it doesn't
23:25work?
23:25Oh my, many times. Tiny little things.
23:28Many times.
23:28Many times.
23:29And then you have to go back and forth.
23:32Yes, it delays a lot of things.
23:33And you're not talking about research
23:35at all, but you're talking about
23:37various partnerships. So imagine how
23:39many scams sometimes...besides all that
23:47, many times when we talk about
23:50research, the law isn't adequate for
23:53something that is research. So, many
23:58times something that is from the future
24:00, right? Uh, that will happen. An
24:04example is that giant researcher of
24:06ours, I...I forget the name, the one
24:08about polyamide columns...
24:10Ah,
24:11yes. Uh-huh.
24:12Damn, she was a classic example. Sorry,
24:14professor, uh, I'm bad with names, but
24:17you are, we are big fans. Uh, it's a
24:20classic example, you're a classic
24:22example of, it's not devaluing research
24:25, but it's how poorly it's managed,
24:31right? Uh, uh, it's how this process is
24:37done, right, how the researcher not
24:40only doesn't have support, but he It
24:43needs to bear fruit. Support is needed
24:46when it bears fruit,
24:47yes.
24:49But it will bear fruit sometimes after
24:5130 years, 15 years, 20 years, right?
24:54Poof, overnight. And along the way, a
24:57lot is lost that shouldn't be lost.
25:00Yes. And these partnerships, especially
25:03when we talk about cannabis research,
25:05having these partnerships with
25:07associations helps a lot. Oh
25:09my, it
25:10helps a lot, because to get the
25:12medicines, the supplies and everything,
25:15if we didn't have these associations
25:17partnering with you, it would be much
25:19more complicated.
25:20Absolutely.
25:22Besides that, there are more than
25:2725,000 articles on cannabis. But these
25:30articles are not standardized. These
25:33articles are from different sources,
25:36different genetics, different
25:40methodologies. And you can throw them
25:44all into a bucket or you can, I mean, a
25:47research institute, and standardize
25:49these studies.
25:52Yes, and actually have real data about
25:57that product itself and about those
25:59data. So, that's what we seek to do.
26:03It's about standardizing this data,
26:05standardizing these extraction methods,
26:07and returning real data to society.
26:14That's our role, in essence. By
26:16standardizing, you ensure that future
26:19work also has a similar methodology.
26:22Yes.
26:23And then it becomes easier to say, "
26:25Look, guys, this works.
26:26See? Everyone's following the same
26:27script."
26:30Or it doesn't work, so let's transform
26:33this in such a way. Yes. Now, when
26:38there's a lack of methodological
26:40standardization, it becomes complicated
26:44to actually explain what sometimes
26:46doesn't even have an explanation. The
26:51endocannabinoid system, as we've
26:53discussed, its evolution spans
26:56thousands of years, but it was only
26:58discovered by modern science in the
27:011990s, right? So, we're talking about
27:04something from 40 years ago,
27:06very recent. It's
27:09complicated to have this transformation
27:12often, you know, we don't have it
27:14overnight, the law doesn't keep up, and
27:17society sometimes doesn't keep up
27:20either, right? Because...To have a
27:23legal change, so to speak, society also
27:25has to keep up.
27:27Yes. And how is it going to keep up
27:30with a process that 40 years ago was
27:33the worst thing in the world? And today
27:36it's complicated, right? But as we were
27:41saying, everything is transformed. So
27:47we are part of this transformation and
27:51what we want most is to generate solid
27:56data. Regardless, it's not about
28:01whether it works or not. I think it's
28:06been used for over 15,000 years, we
28:08know it works, but it's about
28:10transferring that to research,
28:14it's about giving a scientific basis
28:16for why it works. That's it.
28:18It's about transforming that into
28:19replicable data for anyone who wants it
28:21, right? So, I think that's it, solid
28:24and replicable data. To end that
28:28discussion, we have a professor, uh,
28:33his class was wonderful. And since the
28:40dawn of humanity, people have been
28:42searching for substances that improve
28:45the performance of the nervous system,
28:48right? And that search hasn't ended.
28:50That search continues. Ah, today we've
28:53arrived, we've returned to having
28:55robots again. So So, this is nothing
28:57more than a reflection of the human
28:59mind. And this transformation, it goes
29:03through everything. Uh, this is viable,
29:08this is natural. And research needs to
29:11keep up, right? It also needs to be
29:14transformed. And that's what we're
29:16doing in some way, right? And opening
29:20space for more, right? What was
29:23beautiful about these girls, in
29:25everything, right? Uh, the willpower,
29:28the search, it's living the dream. But
29:31in being an example of calm, man. We
29:35saw that we have potential, let's set
29:38up our structure here, let's transform
29:42our structure. And that's it, isn't it,
29:47Mr. President?
29:48Absolutely. And the idea of the Cai
29:53Flor institute itself, how did it come
29:56about? How did it develop?
30:01Well, it's due to the number of
30:03patients and people who are also
30:05undergoing treatment around us. We see
30:08this need. Uh, the issue is easier
30:11nowadays, but there are still many
30:13people who have this difficulty of not
30:14having information on how to access an
30:16association, how to access a
30:17veterinarian who prescribes. So, It's
30:21through this need, together with our
30:23partners, that we had this idea to
30:26develop the best through research, for
30:28our patients who are currently
30:30undergoing treatment, and for future
30:32patients as well, both animals and
30:35people. Since we are all patients here
30:38as well, we are able to truly
30:40understand the pain of the other. It's
30:42definitely
30:43about that.
30:45Veterinarians are born of love, as they
30:48say, right? And these women are born of
30:52love. They didn't want their own
30:55well-being to die within them. And the
30:59best way to transform the reality of
31:01others is by generating this data. And
31:05they see this, and not only see it,
31:07they actually live it. Let me tell you,
31:13today she doesn't just do the
31:18extractions anymore, but she works with
31:19the final product much better than I do
31:21. The other day she made some games
31:25that I don't know how to make. And I'll
31:28tell you, I saw our brilliant professor
31:30, Professor Edson, who was here with us
31:32. Uh-huh.
31:34Yes, Yasmin...Where's that recipe,
31:36Yasmin? So, that's what it's about,
31:40right? And currently, what are the
31:43products you've been working with the
31:44most?
31:45Well, we have a large list that we
31:49develop and work on as case reports.
31:53Uh-huh.
31:53We often don't publish them to make
31:56them more solid cases, but it's what
31:59you said today. Today, the current
32:02legislation and the protocols for
32:07conducting clinical research do not
32:11necessarily limit us, but they do
32:14hinder our ability to develop our
32:17various projects exactly in the way we
32:21intended. But today it is just topical
32:26ointments and eye creams. They have a
32:31systemic effect, but they're topical.
32:34Basically, those two are our main
32:37products today. But this line, as I
32:42said, we end up developing more things
32:45than we've actually been working on
32:48today, right? But the idea is to expand
32:52. And the results have been very
32:55favorable.
32:56Absolutely.
32:56Absolutely.
32:58Favorable, fast.
33:00Yes, we've already removed
33:02post-surgical stitches in a week, 7
33:04days.
33:05There was a report of five... "Little
33:06black one,
33:07five days old,
33:08a CRD that we operated on in August,
33:11five days ago, she only used the
33:14ointment
33:15on the affected area. And it was an
33:18incredibly fast recovery. We only have
33:20the tattoos.
33:21It's really great to follow along. It's
33:22very beautiful, isn't it? Yes. No, I
33:24imagine it must be quite satisfying too
33:28, right?
33:28Definitely. We have all that follow-up
33:30with the pet, right? And every day we
33:33do our homework there, we tell the
33:35producer, every day you have to be here
33:36at a certain time for us to check on
33:38you. And we always take photographs,
33:40right? Throughout the whole process,
33:43even
33:46this morning at an event, they came
33:48looking for us, we were at UnB at a
33:49lecture and the tutor came looking for
33:51us, we were there. Look,
33:56this, this, this gives a stronger basis
33:58too, right,
34:00for the work, right?
34:01Yes.
34:02To have that record,
34:03for sure. To
34:05follow along, right? Everything is
34:07there, in fact, what's happening." It's
34:09both so he feels safe, right? Uh-huh.
34:12And
34:12so we can add to the data.
34:15And it's funny, isn't it? Also because
34:18it becomes a Ferris wheel, right? As it
34:21works out, you start wanting more and
34:23get a return. Today I was thinking, our
34:27main complaint, right? Look what I
34:30thought while you were talking, is that
34:32we can't give attention to everyone,
34:35man. And sometimes people get upset
34:37about that. So, we really want to be
34:41more present, but somehow the law is so
34:47complicated that we can do everything,
34:52but we can't plant. So, how can you do
34:56everything? Uh, that's what I told you,
35:04today we also work with other plants
35:06that also need to have their own
35:09prominent place. They were somehow
35:14forgotten, I mean forgotten to be
35:18prescribed by us on paper. So, our idea
35:24is also to rescue not only cannabis,
35:28but other plants, right, in this
35:32process, as you said, uh, Andiroba,
35:35buriti, Copaiba, barbatimão. I think
35:42we could just use our own forest, it is
35:44right there, countless examples. The
35:49ABS association, which supports us,
35:52stands out for its use of pequi oil in
35:55cannabis formulations. So, and I think
36:00it's like Yasmin said, we need to unite
36:04and transform, right? That way we can
36:08not only generate scientific data, but
36:11apply it to the daily lives of society,
36:14right? That's important. And the issue
36:20of phytotherapy itself still faces some
36:23resistance among veterinarians and
36:25doctors, all because they think it's
36:28too
36:31empirical, right? Because I see, for
36:37example, my godmother is from the
36:39interior of Bahia, the very interior.
36:43And there's a lot of that there. For
36:46example, you go to a barbecue, you're
36:48feeling unwell, people give you orange
36:50peel tea, espinheira santa, but
36:51whatever, man. You feel completely fine
36:53.
36:55Where did people get that from,
36:57man? It was passed from one person to
37:00another...You know? So, there's still a
37:02lot of this idea that herbal medicine
37:04is unscientific and very focused on
37:11regional beliefs, simply because it
37:16doesn't transform that data into
37:22replicable, methodologically
37:24standardized, and replicable research.
37:29Science allows you to evaluate concepts
37:32and, according to certain standards,
37:35replicate those standards. That's why
37:39we have to feed the academy. Based on
37:43this popular, empirical knowledge.
37:46Uh-huh.
37:47All medicines, or at least 98%of the
37:51synthetic medicines sold in pharmacies,
37:55were and still are made today. The
38:03beauty is, many molecules today are
38:05synthetic and created in the laboratory
38:07, but it was from this popular concept,
38:10right? I saw that it was good for
38:13so-and-so. Take this. My grandmother
38:17said that...So it's about that, and we
38:20need to understand, listen to
38:23the real pharmacy. It's been around for
38:26200, 150 years. This synthetic pharmacy
38:30, of pills
38:31and analgesic, anti-inflammatory
38:36molecules, no, man. We lose out there
38:40as prescribing professionals. It's a
38:44huge gap in terms of therapeutic
38:47potential for our patients. And that's
38:51what Yasmin said. I'm seeing bald guys,
38:55my brother, prescribing some crazy
38:57little plant that they shouldn't, but
38:59the CRMV (Regional Council of
39:00Veterinary Medicine) lets them
39:02prescribe it and it's doing good for
39:03patients right under my nose. Uh-huh.
39:06And the other one that everyone's
39:08prescribing is killing people with
39:09overdoses. Hold on, man. Come here.
39:12Let's do some research here. I said, "
39:14Look, you can't, you can't. Come here."
39:16"
39:18And that's the standard, right? Why is
39:20that the standard? It's
39:21normal. It's what's all right. It can
39:24bite seven times with dextrose bait.
39:28It's because it's complicated to get it
39:32into the heads of some professionals
39:35that you have options.
39:39Yes,
39:39I see a lot, it's something I emphasize
39:42a lot, is the issue of people nowadays
39:45working too much with protocols. I have
39:47this, I treat with this. I have this, I
39:49treat with this. I have this, I treat
39:50with this. But no, they don't stop to
39:53think, okay, but this treatment with
39:55this isn't working. What can we change
40:00here?
40:01Transform,
40:02you know? And I think veterinary
40:04medicine has lost a lot in this 'this
40:06is treated with this, this is treated
40:08with this.' And people are getting kind
40:11of dumb, they don't stop to think.
40:13It's kind of robotic,
40:15rote learning, right? It's bad because
40:21it's a huge loss, right? Today, life is
40:24everything." Drive-through food,
40:26relationships, professions, right? It's
40:31all already prescribed in the system
40:34that controls the clinic.
40:37You just put it in, they give you the
40:39loan, there's a template there, you
40:41just adjust the dose.
40:43Okay, fine. For those who want this
40:48professional standard, I think there's
40:50room for them. There also has to be
40:54room for those who are different from
40:55them. And there's room for everyone,
41:00it's all good, no problem. Now, I think
41:06it's worth it to be critical of who you
41:09want to be. And these girls did this
41:13very early on, right? And they pay, and
41:17have paid, a high price for it too. As
41:21I told you, being here with you today,
41:24us talking about this together, is a
41:26gift for all the hardships we endured,
41:29for all the doors we knocked on, for
41:31all the wrong things we did, for it to
41:34work out. So this transformation, I had
41:37the privilege of hearing them say: "Ah,
41:40Lucas." When I got there, I had the
41:43privilege of coming from UnB, from the
41:49Faculty of Health, with my advisor, who
41:51had published the most on monkeys in
41:53the best journals in the world. "So, I
41:57told her," Professor, uh, I would
41:58really like to do a master's degree
42:00with you, but I wanted to do it on
42:02marijuana. "She can't, right, Lucas?
42:10That was 17 years ago, 15 years ago.
42:14But let's go. Yes, and she prepared me
42:17for the scenario we're seeing today.
42:20She has her history in Germany. Germany
42:23was already more advanced in medicinal
42:27plants than perhaps the entire world
42:29population.
42:31So she had already understood this and
42:34prepared me for today's scenario. And I
42:37think, once again, if it weren't for
42:40the determination and courage of these
42:43two, combined with the support of a
42:46private institution under the command
42:48of a coordinator who also saw the
42:51potential of the research, we wouldn't
42:54be here today, we wouldn't be
42:56generating these results, you know? Uh,
43:00a joint role. Uh-huh.
43:04That keeps adding up, adding up, adding
43:06up. And no, and I see a great advantage
43:09that we have when we talk about this
43:11research in veterinary medicine is that
43:14you remove some of the placebo effect
43:16on the patient, right? It
43:18will either work or it won't work,
43:20there's
43:20certainly
43:21no question of you taking it and
43:22thinking: 'I think it's improved.'""
43:24Yeah, it doesn't exist. I
43:26was talking, right, Andrezão, about
43:28the basic concepts, right? Uh, of One
43:32Health, animal, human, environment.
43:37Uh, but we could extrapolate that to
43:41translational medicine, uh, to research
43:45. And who is the main support for
43:47translational research, if not the
43:49veterinarian? Look, I was with the
43:53monkeys, which is the top of this
43:55translational chain to apply from
43:57animal to human, I was at the time the
44:00only veterinarian. Where? Uh, in a
44:06giant institution that has headquarters
44:09all over Brazil. Okay? They were the
44:14pioneers in this search, right, in this
44:16resilience. Then there's also the
44:20transformation of the student, but more
44:23and more they forget the importance of
44:27research. What do they want to be? Uh,
44:32immediate. So then it goes back to what
44:36we were talking about, it's the
44:38devaluation of the profession, it goes
44:40back to what we were talking about, the
44:42ready-made recipe. Uh, we talk a lot
44:46there about various things, like, the
44:48other day she said:" Recipe such and
44:50such. "" Then I said, 'Hey, what you're
44:53talking about is putting a shot in the
44:55face, right?' It was like that. Then
44:58she asked, "But will you prescribe it?"
45:00"Then I said, 'Hey, you don't think
45:02it's important, you just said it was
45:05one thing, but this works, so use this.
45:07' We have this openness. Many times
45:12there isn't this openness, right? And
45:16the ego battle, right? The vanity
45:19battle, it only destroys, right?
45:21Instead of adding. Uh-huh.
45:23Yeah, I went to the doctor and the
45:28doctor did this and this and this. It's
45:32rare that when you tell a doctor about
45:35this, he'll speak badly of the other
45:38doctor. So, it's important that we also
45:43have this unity within our profession
45:46so that there is transformation as a
45:49whole.
45:51Yes. Because, if we're going to say it
45:54like that, the profession of the end
45:55times is the veterinarian. It will be
45:59needed; everyone will die, he will take
46:00care of everyone, he will take care of
46:01the nurse, he will take care of the
46:03food, he will take care of the horse,
46:04he will...the way things are going, he
46:08will even take care of the robot. I
46:11don't think it's difficult. It's
46:14close,
46:15right? Because veterinary medicine is a
46:19very broad area, right? Gigantic, very
46:21..." Beautiful, isn't
46:23it? We can work in many areas,
46:27very, very, very, very, very beautiful,
46:29right? Uh, and to limit yourself to
46:31that, to label yourself, right?
46:33Yes.
46:34It's, it's horrible. And at the same
46:38time, you also don't call a spade a
46:41spade. Uh-huh.
46:43Uh, you also lose sight of things,
46:44right? Uh, and then it generates a very
46:48large, very large, very large
46:50disorganization.
46:52And then you have to deal with a label,
46:55right, a very large one in itself,
46:58and organizing that label is not easy
47:02at all. Uh, academia can also emerge as
47:06a unifying force when you learn there,
47:09right, that you have to be united, that
47:13you have to leave there transforming
47:16society and not leave there thinking
47:20that in a year you'll have the best car
47:24in the world, the best car. No, man,
47:27it's another role, right? It's not
47:31about selling, it's not about selling
47:34material dreams, but it's about showing
47:38that dreams can be useful, right? And I
47:43think that's
47:45the role of The academy, it's about
47:46being an agent of transformation, right
47:48?
47:48That's it. Being an agent of
47:50transformation. So, starting from
47:51within, you know? It's so that those
47:54who leave understand that this
47:55generation that's coming, man, is not
47:57the same as ours. It's already better,
48:01more complete in other things. For
48:04example, the black belt in Jiu-Jitsu
48:06today, they learned things at the black
48:08belt level that the athlete sometimes
48:10learned at the white belt level, at the
48:13blue belt level. It's evolution, right?
48:17And then we need, as I said, they do
48:19things that I don't do, I need to learn
48:22from them, man. It's an exchange.
48:24That's it. Yes,
48:26but it's all a learning experience. But
48:27it's all a learning experience, right?
48:30Because they take what you've already
48:33done and tend to try to transform and
48:36improve it. As I said, they come, they
48:40improve, whoever follows will improve
48:42even more, and so it evolves
48:45and generates increasingly solid data.
48:48And as you said, the support from the
48:50university also helps a lot, right?
48:53It's fundamental, right? No, it doesn't
48:55exist yet. In an area where we work,
48:59there are no laws, or the laws are very
49:03open-ended, or people really don't care
49:06. If we don't have the support of a
49:12truly large, renowned institution
49:15behind us, we can't move forward.
49:23CESP, as a pioneer in this, was
49:27recognized by UnB, UFSC, and FRP. So,
49:33that's it,
49:35right? Perhaps that is the greatest
49:41support of all, but as I tell you,
49:45there is no such thing as a bad
49:48institution, just like my father said,
49:51only bad students. The student
49:56transforms the institution they're in.
49:59They can be the best student on the
50:02planet if they're in, I don't know, the
50:05best institution on the planet, and if
50:08they don't want to, they won't,
50:12you know? So it's very much about that.
50:16I think that many times today the
50:18student pretends to have learned, the
50:21teacher pretends to have taught, and
50:24then everyone has a diploma and then
50:27everyone...Fighting over a shift.
50:30That's very wrong. We know it's wrong.
50:37And if we don't transform this, how do
50:40we transform it? In this way, right?
50:44The institution supporting, the
50:46institution uniting research, the
50:48institution creating solid data, the
50:50institution supporting great students
50:53who really want to make a difference.
50:57Transforming now, or maybe it will
51:00transform in 15 years; perhaps it will
51:02only transform the lives of those two,
51:05but that is already far more than for
51:09nobody at all. So that's the role of
51:11the institution.
51:12Yes. And what I see as cool is this:
51:15despite being a private institution,
51:20from what we're discussing here,
51:22they're not interested in the quick
51:23final development of a product to be
51:25sold. No, really not, you
51:31know? That's really cool because it's a
51:33real incentive for research and not the
51:36finalization of a product.
51:38And that's the most beautiful thing,
51:41because many times, as I told you, we
51:43have real clinical data.
51:47Many times this data is more advanced
51:51than research. International.
51:53Uh-huh. And we want to run this at our
51:56institution. It doesn't pass. We have
52:00work that we've already sent with more
52:02than 500 pages and it didn't pass, and
52:04we're working on them. We also don't
52:07have any pampering, no smooth talking.
52:08And then what happens? Like what
52:10happened the other day, I received from
52:14one of our directors in our research
52:18line, a work that was published by
52:20another institution. Let's say, you're
52:24sad, you're sad, but you're happy
52:26because other people are working on it,
52:29and now you take this work and put it
52:31here too. Yeah. And it keeps completing
52:35, you know? And it keeps transforming
52:37the scene.
52:38Uh-huh. Uniting. Yeah, that's what it's
52:41about. Now we've already written a few
52:44more pages about it.
52:49Because you have to keep pushing it,
52:50otherwise, of
52:51course. And everyone keeps growing, you
52:53know? I think that's the idea. Yeah,
52:56yeah. Damn it,
52:58take it and use this product. I saw
53:02that it's good. Okay? Let's generate
53:05data, let's replicate it, let's
53:08transform it, uh, let's make it work.
53:11Social utility. So that's what it's
53:13about. Uh, uh, and that's what we're
53:17trying to do, something serious,
53:20well-founded, based on the names of
53:22great institutions, and so, uh, not
53:25valuing, but honoring great names in
53:28research in Brazil. Yes, and this is
53:33the new generation that's coming on
53:35strong, already has work published for
53:37International Congresses, but still
53:38faces a lot of setbacks.
53:42Oh, but it has to be done. Yes, there's
53:44nowhere to run. It doesn't have to be
53:45done,
53:46because you end up encouraging it, kind
53:47of, look, it's possible to evolve, it's
53:49possible to improve, it's possible to
53:51feel it. Andrésão was at the beach,
53:53then he sends me a paper, and I'm like,
53:56"Dude, send this paper to the congress.
53:58" Then I said, "Wow, kid's interested,
54:02huh? You're tripping." I said, "He sent
54:05the paper," then I read it, and I said,
54:08"Son of a [ __ ], kid, this was from
54:10last year, okay?" Come here, girls. No,
54:14dude. It's for you to transform it
54:17together with Anne, with our eyes of AG
54:19making another extract. Another damn
54:22thing. So you gave me the idea to do
54:25another project. It's mine. I said, "Oh
54:28, okay, hold on, we'll do it." Yeah,
54:33but I think the cool thing
54:36is that you're
54:37always thinking about something new.
54:41Yes, all the time. It's all the time
54:44sleeping, not thinking about improving.
54:46It's because the variety of products
54:49you can make is huge.
54:51Wow, yeah, I'm one of those who thinks
54:53you can use, you know, not just
54:55cannabis, but plants as a whole.
54:58So the other day I was traveling with
55:00Edinho, trying to make, for example,
55:01straws, biodegradable straws, using the
55:03plant, because it's not just the
55:05medicinal aspect, we also have the
55:06industrial aspect, you know, the
55:08textile aspect. And that's very
55:10important, right? Very, very cool.
55:13Cleaning products, right?
55:14Exactly. Exactly. You can see I
55:18recorded here with the people from Cind
55:21Paper, which is a hygiene mat.
55:23Yes.
55:24Which is made of
55:24biodegradable paper.
55:28Yeah, but the difference is that
55:30instead of going there and buying the
55:32mat, you buy the roll.
55:34Oh, that's great.
55:35Because you cut it to the size of your
55:37stall, the size you need. Uh-huh.
55:40You know, it doesn't leak, you throw
55:41water on it, it doesn't leak. I saw it
55:44live,
55:45you know? And the first development
55:47they had there was the paper straw,
55:50damn.
55:51That doesn't dissolve in liquid. Uh-huh
55:55.
55:56See? That's really cool. It is an idea
56:01that leads you to consider the
56:03environment, specifically the use of a
56:05byproduct, or perhaps something that
56:08you might have otherwise chosen to
56:10discard. No, you can do this, you can
56:14do this. It is only by doing the
56:16research that you will know how you can
56:19refine this, right?
56:20Yeah, for sure. There are many
56:22applications, right? You can make fuel,
56:25houses, bricks. At these fairs, we have
56:29a lot of exhibits, right? The
56:31possibilities are really cool, really
56:33cool, right?
56:34Yes, yes, yes, in our specific topic,
56:39it's extremely multimodal, right? Like
56:44we were talking about,
56:45multidisciplinary, in the sense that
56:48everyone contributes, all knowledge is
56:51added. For example, if you don't have
56:54an agronomist working in the soil, you
56:56won't have a good final product. A
56:59pharmacist,
57:02if you don't have the pharmacist's
57:03process in developing this product, you
57:05won't have a good product. If you don't
57:09have a chemist analyzing this product,
57:11no, it won't be replicable. I don't
57:13even know what's going to be effective.
57:15It's
57:15no use saying, "Okay, I used this, it
57:17worked, great, that's fine." But what
57:19is it?
57:20Where did it come from? How was it
57:22processed? How was it transformed to
57:24become what I'm going to use?
57:26Exactly. It's a whole process.
57:28Something I always talk about with
57:30people who don't have formal training
57:32is: "Look at how many jobs this can
57:34generate, because it's a chain of many
57:35professions." You have it all there,
57:38from the producer who's working in the
57:41soil, right? All the way to the final
57:44consumer. We have technicians, doctors,
57:48dentists, actors in the chain,
57:49engineers, right? Gohas said,
57:52pharmacists; in other words, it's a
57:54wide range of areas and a very large
57:56generation of jobs that we can achieve
57:58with this market, not only in sugarcane
58:00, but in phytotherapy in general. It's
58:03very, very interesting.
58:04And the demand for phytotherapeutic
58:06products has grown considerably, right?
58:08Absolutely.
58:09Absolutely. In the last year, I've
58:15noticed that it's more acceptable to
58:21listen to them and people are more open
58:24to trying them. Uh-huh.
58:27And what happens? The doctor feels more
58:31confident in prescribing. And then what
58:35we started here happens, the initial
58:38point of our story, seeing the benefit
58:41in the patient's routine. "Oh, so hold
58:44on, I'm going to become a researcher."
58:48And then they started publishing work,
58:49developing endless things that I almost
58:51don't keep up with. So that's it. There
58:56will be people who just stop at
58:57prescribing, and that's fine. But
59:01increasingly, there needs to be support
59:05for those who prescribe. And perhaps
59:10that's our greatest responsibility, to
59:12provide that support. Like, "Hey, I
59:17used it, but he had an adverse reaction
59:20. Why was that? It was because of this,
59:22because of that, because of that.""Hey,
59:24I used it, it worked really well. I
59:27want to use it more, but I want to
59:28understand why. It's because of this,
59:30because of that, because of that." And
59:33of course, as I said, everything that
59:36ends must open up to new opportunities.
59:42And even when you conclude, you know
59:45that it can be transformed.
59:47Uh-huh. So that's the beauty of it,
59:50right? In our case related to plants,
59:53it's easier because there are records
59:55from over 15,000 years ago, 5,000 years
59:58ago. And we just have to organize this
1:00:01record, right, and transform it into
1:00:03modern science. And besides, with each
1:00:06positive result you get, it ends up
1:00:08being a greater incentive for you to
1:00:11definitely seek out something
1:00:13new.
1:00:14Time is everything.
1:00:14For sure.
1:00:15Time is everything. Time is everything.
1:00:17All the time. Time is everything. It
1:00:20doesn't stop. Yeah,
1:00:21it doesn't stop,
1:00:22right? I see because I was looking at
1:00:24the semaglutide issue the other day,
1:00:26the pens. It was all developed using
1:00:29the saliva of the Gila monster. They
1:00:33discovered that it can feed three times
1:00:36a year
1:00:37and the toxins there.
1:00:38They said: "Okay, let's see how this
1:00:40thing works." And then they started
1:00:42developing all these things that we
1:00:44have today. It's
1:00:45the pens. It's
1:00:49cannabis. It's cool that we have THCV.
1:00:56It has this potential to control
1:01:00insulin and also generate this
1:01:03potential to control appetite. I'm not
1:01:09going to say it has the potential to
1:01:11make you lose weight, but to control
1:01:13appetite, to regulate appetite.
1:01:15And I say regulate why? Because
1:01:18regulation is the role of
1:01:20phytocannabinoids, right? They actually
1:01:23serve to regulate the body. So they
1:01:27work with the body's homeostasis. It's
1:01:31much better to prescribe something that
1:01:36regulates than something that cancels
1:01:38it out. An antidepressant cancels it
1:01:41out. A mood regulator transforms it,
1:01:45right? So it doesn't cancel it out,
1:01:48it's different. And when we have such a
1:01:52rich line of research, Andrezão, we
1:01:55don't stop, man. We wake up talking, we
1:01:59go to sleep arguing, thinking about new
1:02:02ideas and signing this paper. No,
1:02:04so-and-so didn't sign. Call them. It's
1:02:07about that, man. But I've already
1:02:09called 15 times. For example, we have a
1:02:12director who moved. We're having
1:02:16trouble because he moved and we have
1:02:18some difficulty communicating with him
1:02:20to sign these papers, because he's in
1:02:22the countryside.
1:02:25So we're
1:02:26almost getting Vand Scub together to go
1:02:30after him and tell him to sign the pen
1:02:33and paper.
1:02:34Exactly,
1:02:36right? Because I think the biggest
1:02:38obstacle always ends up being
1:02:39bureaucratic, right? Definitely.
1:02:41Definitely. Definitely. From afar, far,
1:02:43far away, because with time you start
1:02:46filtering, you end up only with good
1:02:49people who also think about developing
1:02:52good and serious things.
1:02:56But bureaucracy, damn it, and it seems
1:03:00to be what runs our country, right? So
1:03:05it really gets in the way a lot. It's
1:03:09my luck, my ideas, that we're terrible
1:03:12at this, but we have Anne and she's a
1:03:14genius at it, you know? And many times
1:03:18she solves things
1:03:20in a matter of seconds that Yasmin and
1:03:21I didn't even understand what they were
1:03:23. And she, so that's fantastic. The
1:03:27other day our lawyer is in Chile, one
1:03:29of our lawyers is in Chile. And he says
1:03:32, Lucas, I can't do it. You don't know
1:03:36how to do it. It's better if we call
1:03:38Anne right away, because she'll do it
1:03:40quickly. Brother, call her. And then,
1:03:45sometimes the day is beautiful,
1:03:48Andrezão, when you think you can't
1:03:50access it here with a puffed-up face.
1:03:53What happened? No answer, I don't know
1:03:57what, didn't sign. Sent back. I said, "
1:04:00No, man, but it'll work out." And she
1:04:01looked at me, pissed off, right? Ah,
1:04:06that's exactly how it is.
1:04:10We also went through a somewhat dark
1:04:12period of
1:04:14not encouraging research, right? Yes.
1:04:17Hmm. Today we see a lot of people who
1:04:21don't even know the importance of
1:04:23publishing their work. Like, saying
1:04:27that there are cases where we give them
1:04:32a finished paper, just send it, and the
1:04:35person doesn't send it. Oh, they're
1:04:38saying, you give them a finished paper.
1:04:41It's just because they assisted in the
1:04:43surgery and they still think the
1:04:45professor has an obligation to do that.
1:04:48And then the worst part is, they don't
1:04:50send it, they miss a conference
1:04:51deadline or a journal deadline, because
1:04:53they don't even know how important it
1:04:55is. They send R $ 50, sometimes, I
1:04:59don't know, you know? Like, the person
1:05:01knows more about the value of something
1:05:03material, something tangible, than
1:05:04something that is transformative in the
1:05:06long term.
1:05:10So this new generation is losing that,
1:05:13Andressa, okay?
1:05:15It's very important that you touch on
1:05:18this, because, like, uh, this moment
1:05:20we're in here today, she's from a
1:05:22generation that's more old school,
1:05:25right? So, she knew the importance of
1:05:28research. Uh, she managed to transform
1:05:30that in her environment, but today
1:05:32people aren't interested in that. No,
1:05:34man. They're
1:05:35not, man. Uh, they say: "Let's register
1:05:38for the congress."
1:05:41Oh, I don't know what. I can't. I'm not
1:05:44even
1:05:44going to. My day was hectic. So imagine
1:05:48, man, I keep thinking, your day was
1:05:50hectic, you're 20 years old, I'm 40.
1:05:52I'm doing what I'm doing. Like, it's
1:05:55not possible, right, man? Okay, your
1:05:56day was hectic, patience, right? My
1:06:01father also used to say a lot, you know
1:06:02, that you don't let a saddled horse
1:06:04pass you by. So,
1:06:09for example, in my time at university,
1:06:12I graduated 24 years ago. I had a very
1:06:16good professor who encouraged a lot of
1:06:18people to do research.
1:06:21So I remember when the national team
1:06:25won the World Cup, a long time ago,
1:06:282002,
1:06:29yeah, I was,
1:06:31I was going to say '94, it was later.
1:06:352002, total
1:06:372002.
1:06:40And then, man, I was there on the day,
1:06:42the day the national team came here to
1:06:44Brasília, to do the [test], I was at
1:06:46the university
1:06:48doing research,
1:06:48doing research.
1:06:49Look,
1:06:50we had the key to the hospital at
1:06:52UnB [University of Brasília],
1:06:54because we were there, man, it was
1:06:55Saturday, it was Sunday,
1:06:57whatever,
1:06:59you know? My professor arranged it, we
1:07:02did it with propofall fusion anesthesia
1:07:04. Damn, he got three pumps, man. I'm
1:07:07talking about 20-something years ago.
1:07:08That's awesome,
1:07:09damn, he got three pumps so we could do
1:07:12the test. So, the professor's
1:07:14encouraging side is also very good.
1:07:17Oh, yes.
1:07:18Wow, definitely. It makes all the
1:07:19difference. All of this is happening
1:07:22because we have encouragement, we have
1:07:23the support of a great master, of great
1:07:25masters who are behind us, otherwise
1:07:26none of this would be possible. We
1:07:29could arrive at any other institution,
1:07:30any other person, just like we already
1:07:32have your contact and the door is
1:07:34slammed in our face. So there's someone
1:07:35who holds your hand and says: "Okay,
1:07:37let's go together." That's it.
1:07:38So much so that people had a grudge
1:07:40against this professor of mine who,
1:07:41after I graduated, forbade me from
1:07:42entering the university. Seriously, man
1:07:46, I was banned from the hospital, even
1:07:48after I
1:07:48graduated.
1:07:49Researchers have these things.
1:07:51Sometimes the result isn't what we
1:07:53expect, right? You end up...But it
1:07:57happens, and what you're talking about
1:08:00is a conflict, I won't say a
1:08:03generational conflict, but it's a
1:08:05process of transformation, both in
1:08:08academia and in veterinary medicine.
1:08:13For her, the professor's support is
1:08:15important.
1:08:16Uh-huh. For her, the professor was
1:08:19insignificant as long as she could do
1:08:22what she wanted to do. Uh-huh.
1:08:25So, like, she transformed. Well, it's
1:08:28not that she didn't transform things,
1:08:31of course she did. She arrived with the
1:08:33first emblematic case, she arrived with
1:08:36the final thesis, of course she
1:08:39transformed things, but in different
1:08:41ways, different generations. Uh-huh.
1:08:44Different paths. The good thing, in
1:08:49this whole temporal context, that we're
1:08:52talking about in our case, is having
1:08:54Professor Gisele, having the professor
1:08:57who truly cared about a sensitive topic
1:09:05and said: "Man, Lucas has a story, you
1:09:09have a story, the institution has a
1:09:12story." I'll give you a hug, but here's
1:09:15the thing: don't let your guard down.
1:09:18And we try to honor that in every way,
1:09:21right, Andrés?
1:09:23Because, whether we like it or not, the
1:09:25institution's name gets dragged through
1:09:26the mud, right?
1:09:27For sure. And it gets dragged through
1:09:30both good and bad.
1:09:31Yes,
1:09:32right? And
1:09:33people tend to focus more on the bad
1:09:35side.
1:09:36Yeah. And people like to see you fall,
1:09:39not who you help up. And that's how it
1:09:42is. And we know our responsibility when
1:09:46I tell them: "Look, man, your thesis
1:09:49will be on your resume forever, and
1:09:51you're carrying that name there forever
1:09:54. Do it right." That's what it's about.
1:10:00This demand is being lost, this
1:10:03teaching is being lost. And academia is
1:10:08the main culprit in the reflection of
1:10:12our profession, man. Uh-huh.
1:10:15I see, I see currently there are some
1:10:18postgraduate courses, and everything
1:10:20where you don't need a thesis anymore.
1:10:23Yes.
1:10:24Optional, right?
1:10:25Optional thesis. Yeah,
1:10:26you don't need it, you completed those
1:10:29subjects, took the exams, okay? You
1:10:32have
1:10:32your certificate.
1:10:35Then,
1:10:36this is kind of a cut-off point, like,
1:10:38why would you research, why would you
1:10:40...I see, because I did my postgraduate
1:10:42studies in endocrinology
1:10:45and I needed to do a thesis. That's
1:10:46exactly it. But
1:10:48in the nephrology course I started now,
1:10:49I don't need it. Yeah, it's
1:10:51optional sometimes, right? Yeah. No,
1:10:53it's not necessary. It's not necessary
1:10:55anymore, it's not mandatory anymore.
1:10:56No. You need to,
1:10:57you do it if you want.
1:10:59Wow, and my research, man, I went after
1:11:01it, I wrote about diabetic neuropathy.
1:11:04Damn, cool, huh? So you wanted to write
1:11:07about that, right?
1:11:08Yeah. You start thinking, damn, okay.
1:11:11What's new? What's not new? What can I
1:11:14write about? What can't I write about?
1:11:15Yes, of course.
1:11:16You know? So much so that the person
1:11:19who answered me when I sent my work,
1:11:21which needed some study changes, was
1:11:24Professor Ronaldo Lucas.
1:11:26And damn, being welcomed by a giant,
1:11:29right?
1:11:30Because he was the advisor. Uh-huh.
1:11:34I said: "Damn, that's a hell of an
1:11:36incentive,
1:11:37man, because the guy is awesome."
1:11:40Then I said: "Damn, okay, so we have to
1:11:42improve here, we have to adjust, let's
1:11:43adjust more and more.""That's it,
1:11:46adjust. So, and then I see this issue
1:11:48of the final thesis giving you an
1:11:50incentive to look for a new subject
1:11:52within the area you want to work in.
1:11:54It's a challenge, right? Very cool.
1:11:55It's
1:11:56when we...that's what
1:11:57I saw, that there's really almost
1:11:59nothing about diabetic neuropathy in
1:12:01veterinary medicine, you know? And it's
1:12:04something that's kind of forgotten.
1:12:08Uh, there's a lot of strange or
1:12:10forgotten stuff, right, Andrezão, that
1:12:13only research, the union would be able
1:12:20to transform. Uh, look how much a
1:12:30football player earns today? And like,
1:12:33someone who went to the World Cup,
1:12:35a fortune.
1:12:37How much does a veterinarian earn who
1:12:39goes through what they go through, like
1:12:41, to take care of a loved one? I'll
1:12:44tell you, man, it's a loved one, you
1:12:46know?
1:12:48An old lady, an elderly man, or a child
1:12:51or a parent, regardless of a loved one.
1:12:54How much do they earn?
1:12:55Much less. If the person makes a
1:12:58mistake..." Penalty, like, oh, I lost
1:13:00the World Cup,
1:13:02go to sleep in peace.
1:13:03Life,
1:13:03man, whatever, it didn't kill anyone.
1:13:06Yeah,
1:13:07study, study, study and you mess up in
1:13:11surgery. Like, you lose someone you
1:13:14love or someone you love very much, you
1:13:18, like, you lose, man, you know?
1:13:20And many times that's not in your
1:13:22control. So, it's disproportionate. Uh,
1:13:26I mean financial valuation.
1:13:29Yes. And even so, we are still based on
1:13:33love, we are based on talent, we are
1:13:36based on our own free will choices and
1:13:39want to transform that. Uh, if there
1:13:44isn't the support of academia, if there
1:13:46isn't the union of professionals, it's
1:13:48impossible. For example, the CRMV here
1:13:53in the DF, it did great things for us.
1:13:58Yes, Dr. Rodrigo, Dr. Flávio, Dr.
1:14:01Júlia, if it weren't for this support,
1:14:06I mean, to make it clear, right? They
1:14:10did for us related to specific issues.
1:14:12Uh-huh.
1:14:13It's for, Right? Like,
1:14:15I'm not scolding you three, not really.
1:14:19Yeah, you know? This is pretty tough,
1:14:22man. And if it weren't for that support
1:14:26behind it, it wouldn't work. Why?
1:14:30Because there's no legislation. Why?
1:14:33Because you'd be threatened. Why?
1:14:36Because sometimes the people close to
1:14:38you, like, are watching? Sometimes,
1:14:41either to publish or, like you said, to
1:14:43patent an idea, you'd say: "Okay, fine,
1:14:44screw it, patent it, publish it.""The
1:14:47focus is different now, it's about
1:14:48being useful, okay? You get back to the
1:14:52focus, but if you don't have that kind
1:14:54of support, it's impossible, right? And
1:14:58even more so, we try to maintain a
1:15:01clean and pure science. So, you can see
1:15:07how much personality this has. You can
1:15:11see how much personality this has. So,
1:15:13like, we're not going to sell ourselves
1:15:15, are we? Because it's the CRMV, not
1:15:17because of the NB, not because of
1:15:19anything, man. It's our purpose and we
1:15:22develop it within our reality. Thank
1:15:26God, we are being supported by giants
1:15:30who actually allow us to carry out our
1:15:35purpose, but we have to honor it. Yes,
1:15:40as you said, the responsibility just
1:15:41keeps increasing and getting bigger and
1:15:43bigger. Every congress we go to, every
1:15:47meeting with the congressman, every
1:15:48partnership we make, we are held to
1:15:50higher standards. And I don't mean,
1:15:54we're not held to high standards by
1:15:56others, we're held to high standards by
1:15:58giving our best, right? And in return,
1:16:01so that..." That this is actually
1:16:04useful for society.
1:16:05Yes.
1:16:06Uh, it's a snowball effect. Thank God
1:16:13we're somehow making it work, right?
1:16:17Because, I see the researcher as an
1:16:20eternal dreamer.
1:16:22Yes.
1:16:23Because they're always wanting to
1:16:25evolve. Obviously, they have to bring
1:16:27results. They have to bring results
1:16:30because otherwise, no matter how much
1:16:31the institution supports, supports,
1:16:32supports, if there are no results, at
1:16:34some point it will say: "Oh, I don't
1:16:35think it's possible anymore." Yes. And
1:16:39that's true in everything, right? Uh,
1:16:42in research it's a little worse,
1:16:44because sometimes the result comes 20
1:16:47years after you start, as I told you, I
1:16:51had the opportunity to complete a
1:16:53doctorate, a master's degree that was
1:16:56based on research from 50 years ago,
1:16:59right? So, like, uh, thank God, the
1:17:04advisor from the beginning was there.
1:17:07Uh-huh.
1:17:08But that's not always possible.
1:17:10But, but it goes like this, in truth it
1:17:12ends up being the result of small
1:17:13results
1:17:15until you reach that final result.
1:17:18Yes.
1:17:18And many times not It's not you, as I
1:17:20say, who will reap the final result.
1:17:23For example, we have the Research
1:17:27Institute and we joke about this, but
1:17:29sometimes, when we finally patent the
1:17:31first, second, third, fourth, or fifth
1:17:33product, we might not even be around
1:17:35here anymore, is that not the case? Yes
1:17:39. And that's okay, because sometimes
1:17:41the tree we plant is to provide shade
1:17:44for others, not for ourselves.
1:17:46But you were paving that path, right?
1:17:48All the time,
1:17:52right? You were building that path. Yes
1:17:54. Uh-huh.
1:17:55Even if it's for other people to walk
1:17:57on.
1:17:58And that's the most beautiful thing,
1:17:59you know? It's the role of academia
1:18:01being executed perfectly.
1:18:04And through other masters, we try to
1:18:07pass this on. So, that's really cool.
1:18:11They certainly won't let it die within
1:18:15them, you know? But we need to work
1:18:19more on this attachment, right? Do
1:18:24research. For example, ICESP is a giant
1:18:28institution in Brazil, it's private.
1:18:31And then there's the academic week. I I
1:18:35realize that the number of people
1:18:38publishing during my time here is
1:18:40smaller, you know? But why is it
1:18:43smaller? Well, because they've
1:18:46forgotten the importance of research.
1:18:50Yes.
1:18:52And I mean, even though I've
1:18:54participated in studies, she sometimes
1:18:57finds some of my work on cocaine, I'm
1:19:00not proud of it. But it's part of the
1:19:04process for us to be here today.
1:19:09And it was part of my understanding of
1:19:11neurophysiology to work with cannabis,
1:19:13okay? It's all good, but what I'm
1:19:16trying to say is, they're immortalized
1:19:17there. It's a moment in your life and
1:19:22people, like, don't know how good that
1:19:24is. You saw you talking about your
1:19:28professor and UnB, how good it is, your
1:19:30eyes light up.
1:19:32Maybe these kids today, if they don't
1:19:33experience that, they won't have that
1:19:35anymore, you know? Yeah, man, it's
1:19:38complicated, because we see a lot of
1:19:44people not being very willing to do, to
1:19:46research. Nowadays you just throw it
1:19:49into artificial intelligence, and it
1:19:50solves it for you. That's fine.
1:19:55Drive-through lunch, drive-through
1:19:59study, drive-through relationships,
1:20:03drive-through clothing—that's how the
1:20:07system wants it. It's up to us to
1:20:12understand that it wants it that way.
1:20:16Uh-huh.
1:20:16And to find our role. So, Lucas, you're
1:20:21talking about purpose now, I'm talking
1:20:23about our professional role. You chose
1:20:28to be a veterinarian. So, act
1:20:32responsibly in the best way possible.
1:20:36It's the most beautiful profession in
1:20:37the world. That's what it's about. So,
1:20:41be what you chose. What's happening,
1:20:44André? People give up. Oh, they go for
1:20:47civil service exams, or whatever,
1:20:48become engineers, or whatever, change
1:20:50professions. But they're not happy
1:20:52either. Why? Because that gap is inside
1:20:58the person, not in their salary, right?
1:21:03It's in their lack of seeking diversity
1:21:05, right? Research shows you all the
1:21:09time how to transform that diversity
1:21:12into usefulness, right? When you solve
1:21:15a math problem at school, you're not
1:21:18overjoyed.
1:21:18Yes.
1:21:19It's the same. We're always chasing
1:21:22that dopamine rush to accomplish things
1:21:25that need to be done
1:21:28and improved.
1:21:29And improved. And how do you all see
1:21:32the future of this research of yours?
1:21:36As I was saying, sometimes it's 20, 30
1:21:38years from now that you'll get there,
1:21:40but how do you see the future? Wow,
1:21:48that's a really difficult question. Uh,
1:21:53I hope that the thinking of people, of
1:21:56professionals too, of the judiciary too
1:22:00, has already changed, and that more
1:22:03universities can research this topic,
1:22:07because there are still few, right? And
1:22:13that more people can also have access
1:22:16to the plant, and others as well, but
1:22:18specifically cannabis, without all this
1:22:20bureaucracy. That's it.
1:22:23Cannabis today is to us like penicillin
1:22:25was before, right?
1:22:27Yes.
1:22:27So the trend is only to increase, and
1:22:29I'll work with this for the rest of my
1:22:30life. So I hope
1:22:33it evolves much more, is much more
1:22:35present, with more protocols, new
1:22:37products,
1:22:38new ways of using it. It's a plant,
1:22:40right? Yeah, early on,
1:22:43we even talk about it, right? "Oh,
1:22:45we're going to harvest." I thought it
1:22:48was beautiful what she told me, like,
1:22:51she expects things for everyone, but
1:22:53she didn't talk about her personal
1:22:55fulfillment, right? Like, her personal
1:22:58fulfillment
1:22:59is seeing this improvement. That's it,
1:23:02that's it,
1:23:03it's beautiful. And what I'm saying is:
1:23:06we're already harvesting, uh, in our
1:23:12present, man, like, the opportunity to
1:23:15be here with you, to honor what my
1:23:17brother did for us. Even if we forget
1:23:21to mention it here, like, seeing them
1:23:24at the congress, man, like, it's
1:23:27priceless, you know? So we're already
1:23:30harvesting in our daily struggles,
1:23:32we're already harvesting, right? So
1:23:34we're already harvesting various gifts.
1:23:39When we say, uh, we harvest various
1:23:42products. We can tell you here that our
1:23:46extracts today are controlling Candida
1:23:52strains...another one that I don't even
1:23:53know the name of, that will...I'm not
1:23:55even going to mention that name, man.
1:23:58This is really good.
1:23:59So,
1:24:00this is really good because it opens up
1:24:02a whole range of possibilities.
1:24:04Something
1:24:04that wasn't even considered before. Yes
1:24:06,
1:24:07exactly. And in some way, we're doing
1:24:11this together in the present, as I told
1:24:14you, we have a lot of data that we
1:24:17prefer not to publish because we don't
1:24:20yet have approval for certain research
1:24:24to
1:24:25send to a major journal,
1:24:27and we're doing it off the record, like
1:24:30, off the record for those who are in
1:24:32our routine, right? Yes. And patients
1:24:35keep looking, keep looking, and it
1:24:37keeps increasing. Yes, more data is
1:24:39being generated. But as Anne said, if
1:24:42we don't have this bureaucratic process
1:24:45, if we don't have this overall process
1:24:50, even the sensitivity of us as
1:24:53professors to teach, the sensitivity of
1:24:57us as prescribers to prescribe, to say:
1:25:00"Do I do allometric calculations?""Oh,
1:25:04no. So, the dose of corticosteroid I'm
1:25:07using isn't the correct one either. And
1:25:09the antibiotic dose isn't right either;
1:25:12it wasn't made for that person. So,
1:25:16having that critical sense and allowing
1:25:19yourself to support and step out of
1:25:21your comfort zone...Uh-huh...
1:25:25to understand that this system can be
1:25:28transformed. Our research today
1:25:33basically supports the synergy of
1:25:39cannabis with other molecules, like, '
1:25:41Look, your anti-inflammatory isn't
1:25:43working, so you take it together, and
1:25:45you'll see it doesn't interfere.' Then
1:25:49we know it's improving things the
1:25:50anti-inflammatory wasn't improving.
1:25:52Uh-huh.
1:25:54And then we can understand that, but at
1:25:57the same time, we're still obligated to
1:25:59use the standard protocol and see the
1:26:02synergy of how this plant acts. Of
1:26:07course, there are less orthodox ethics
1:26:10committees, but I think that in order
1:26:14for us to really base solid research,
1:26:18that's the role of the ethics committee
1:26:22. It's really not the word 'chararopar,
1:26:28' it's not 'drawing,'" It's about
1:26:31adjusting, outlining,
1:26:35especially so that all this research
1:26:37can't be questioned later on. And when
1:26:40you work with a topic like this, it has
1:26:43to be much more delicate. So that's
1:26:46really great. We're also happy to know
1:26:50that our work is being evaluated by
1:26:53people who, well, have doctorates,
1:26:55post-doctorates, master's degrees, and
1:26:58who aren't messing around in this world
1:27:01. So that's great, you know? Because we
1:27:06also learn and keep pushing each other.
1:27:11And we also end up passing on to that
1:27:13professional on the committee panel
1:27:15something they don't know, something
1:27:17they've never worked with. So it also
1:27:21sparks a very, very cool curiosity,
1:27:24right? Because we have our ethics
1:27:27committee not only made up of
1:27:28veterinarians, but also biologists,
1:27:29other health professionals. So, it kind
1:27:33of ends up creating this curiosity,
1:27:35this desire to know more about the
1:27:36subject. It's a very cool,
1:27:39multidisciplinary work, very cool. And
1:27:42that's what Anne said, Andrezão, is
1:27:44It's a sensational example from that
1:27:48point of view. When I arrived at CESP,
1:27:52the year Yasmin did her final thesis,
1:27:56she was the only one researching
1:27:58marijuana. The following semester, more
1:28:02professors and students sought to do it
1:28:04. Today, I'll tell you, during the
1:28:08semester I'm no longer supervising
1:28:10anyone, and other professors are. So
1:28:16it's great,
1:28:18it's wonderful, it's really cool to see
1:28:21the transformation and the search for
1:28:23people like me, now supervising
1:28:25students in the field. I mean, coming
1:28:30to exchange ideas. "Hey, Lucas," I say,
1:28:33"I ask Anne," or "Ask Yaiá,""Do they
1:28:35know more about this?" No, we go
1:28:38together trying to give that support,
1:28:41and
1:28:44many times it's not on the front lines,
1:28:47with the name published, but that
1:28:49support, André, is priceless. When we
1:28:52enter a room, a university, to exchange
1:28:56ideas about this, it's as good as
1:28:58saving a patient, right? You say, "It's
1:29:02also the way we have to be..."
1:29:04Transforming that, right? Uh, like you
1:29:07said, like, orthodox universities, uh,
1:29:12through papers and writings, oh, that's
1:29:16good, oh, that could work. "There was a
1:29:20really special case at CESP with Vanda.
1:29:26Vanda came with her dog and the lesion
1:29:33wasn't getting better at all. More than
1:29:37two months with the ointment, and she
1:29:39hated the smell of Vetagls and it
1:29:41wasn't getting better. Then she went to
1:29:44one veterinarian, then another, and
1:29:46then to us, and we were told, 'Apply
1:29:48the ointment, see what happens,' man. I
1:29:51said, 'Man, I'm going to get fired.' Do
1:29:54you know who Vanda is? I don't know.
1:29:58Then I said, 'Man, if it doesn't work,
1:30:01all our research is over.'""She came
1:30:05back three days later with everything
1:30:07closed, Andresa. Like, something that
1:30:11...And then, damn, Vanda, with her
1:30:13greatness and humility, was saying, '
1:30:17Wow, the boys' ointment is good, 'oh.
1:30:20So, you end up having to show it all
1:30:26the time. And when you show it,
1:30:29sometimes to the right people, to the
1:30:31people who welcome you, man, it's
1:30:33fundamental, because from here you go
1:30:35there. So, uh, speechless, I think what
1:30:40we're saying is: unity transforms,
1:30:43right? That's it. It's a fact.
1:30:49Well, I really wanted to thank everyone
1:30:52, I think it's always a topic I like to
1:30:55discuss, precisely because there's this
1:30:57issue of prejudice, of showing that
1:31:02it's effective, that research is being
1:31:06done, that efforts are really being
1:31:08made to prove its efficiency. And I
1:31:10think it's really cool that we discuss
1:31:13this, right? So I really wanted to
1:31:15thank everyone, right?
1:31:17Social media for anyone who wants to
1:31:19know more:
1:31:21@institutocaiaflu @lucas no lcp primato
1:31:24, right?
1:31:27Also no, but that's the one she
1:31:29mentioned." Greetings too. Thank you.
1:31:34No, okay. It's the truth, Andrezão,
1:31:38that's it, thank you once again for
1:31:41your courage, thank you for the
1:31:43affection of your team, man. Uh, thank
1:31:47you for what you are to veterinary
1:31:50medicine, okay, my brother, with these
1:31:53giants here on the phone, like, for me
1:31:56it's a real gift, because you are an
1:31:59example for us of what we have to be.
1:32:05And these girls too, they are examples
1:32:08for those who are coming up, that it's
1:32:11very easy to throw stones. Now, man,
1:32:14going to the front line and taking the
1:32:16stones and transforming them into a
1:32:19castle, that's what they are trying to
1:32:21do every day for everyone. And it's not
1:32:24for them, it's for everyone, man. So,
1:32:26thank you for this unity, speechless.
1:32:29Thank you. Grateful, very grateful for
1:32:31the invitation. Pleasure to be here
1:32:33with you again.
1:32:35Yes, it really is a pleasure to be here
1:32:36. Thank you for the moment so we can
1:32:38have the space to talk, to introduce
1:32:40ourselves, right? To have this
1:32:42interaction, this exchange between us
1:32:44as well, which is always, every day the
1:32:46People have that, but it's always good
1:32:48too.
1:32:48Yes, yes. Go ahead, air your dirty
1:32:50laundry in public.
1:32:54To say that here we count on his
1:32:55support is Brazil. So there's a podcast
1:32:58studio, there's a studio with Chroma
1:32:59key, so you can do courses, video
1:33:01lessons, there's a studio with a fixed
1:33:02set, there's a production team, it's
1:33:04awesome. And to say that's it and see
1:33:06you next week. Uh. Ha.

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