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Peace Is A Process with negotiation expert William Ury | A Bit of Optimism Podcast — Transcript

by Simon Sinek · 6,975 words · 1,005 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00can you tell a specific story where two
0:02Waring parties were able to find Common
0:05Ground number of years ago there was a
0:08terrible Civil War raging in the country
0:10of Turkey between the Turks and the
0:12Kurds 3,000 Villages were destroyed tens
0:15of thousands of people were killed a
0:17group of Turkish leaders and Kurdish
0:20leaders they couldn't be known to be
0:21even talking to each other because they
0:23would be considered Traders by their own
0:24side there was a retired Turkish Admiral
0:27and he said I want to acknowledge the
0:30suffering that the Kurdish villagers and
0:32all the Kurds suffered over the last 30
0:34years and I want to apologize there was
0:37this kind of like quiet and then
0:40spontaneous Applause that one little
0:42apology shifted the tone and out of that
0:45meeting these same people agreed to form
0:48a network to work together and that work
0:51went on for years afterwards and a lot
0:53of it I tribute to that little shift one
0:56person making an apology
1:04you're a world famous peace
1:07negotiator do you have any competition I
1:10hope so hope I have plenty of comp I
1:12know right seriously I hope there's a
1:13whole industry just of Peace negotiators
1:15you came to Fame by co-authoring the
1:17book getting to yes which is the Bible
1:22for anyone who studies negotiation and
1:24it's used in any number of universities
1:26and and and and and
1:28courses in your years of of
1:30understanding negotiation is there any
1:33difference between a peace negotiation a
1:36negotiation in in a business context
1:37trying to make a deal are all
1:39negotiations basically the same thing
1:41regardless of the stakes or are there or
1:43they actually different if I'm
1:44negotiating a contract or trying to
1:46negotiate a deal with my union versus a
1:48peace negotiation at the highest levels
1:50of Israelis Palestinians Etc is there
1:52actually a difference or is all
1:53negotiation basically the same thing so
1:55is that book that you wrote not just a
1:57book on how to effectively negotiate but
1:59how to have relationships how to have a
2:01better marriage how to have you know
2:03peace is it is it all basically the same
2:05even though the words might be
2:07different well there obviously a lot of
2:11situational differences there's no
2:12question about it and we can go into all
2:14that but at the root of it is what
2:18you're asking I think
2:21fundamentally it is in my experience I
2:24can just speak to my experience it is
2:25the same and I work in all i' I've work
2:28you know I started working in strikes
2:30and coal mines and you know in the
2:32Middle East and family disputes and a
2:35lot of business disputes and so on and
2:37yeah that's my experience it's basically
2:39human beings dealing with other human
2:41beings and having conflicts which we all
2:44have at every level and the evidence of
2:46that is that book because that book had
2:48examples from all of those
2:50Realms
2:52and it's used in prisons with prisoners
2:56it's used in Divinity schools it's used
2:59in in diplomatic acmy it's used in the
3:02state department it's used in the
3:04Pentagon of the military and obviously a
3:06lot in the business world it's used by
3:08therapists and that's because they find
3:11it helpful across the different domain
3:14because we're talking about human
3:17beings trying to live with other human
3:19beings and to me this is the the key
3:23thing right now is we're in trouble here
3:25where you know the country stops ET
3:27Turvy the world stops ET Turvy social
3:30media artificial intelligence everything
3:32that's going on all the changes climate
3:34change all that stuff there's more and
3:36more conflict because naturally because
3:38there's more and more change in the
3:40world and with more change comes more
3:42conflict and conflict is not something
3:44necessarily bad it's actually natural
3:47it's human everybody has conflict
3:50there's conflict all the time and the
3:53the choice is not about getting rid of
3:54the conflict it's about how do we deal
3:56with the conflict do we deal with the
3:58conflict by opposing each other getting
4:00into this fight where we all lose in the
4:02end or do we as you were saying do we
4:05face the situation together and say how
4:08do we how do we resolve this or how do
4:10we how do we transform it or how do we
4:12agree to disagree how do we get along
4:15and on that question I don't think
4:18that's our personal happiness depends on
4:21it but our Collective survival as a
4:23species depends on how we answer that
4:25question I I think there's there's
4:27something very important here that when
4:28you and I talk about our desire for
4:29world peace there's nothing polyana
4:32polanish about that we don't imagine a
4:35world without conflict we imagine a
4:38world in which all conflict can be
4:40resolved
4:41peacefully and that's what world peace
4:43looks like exactly peace is a process
4:46it's not it's not an outcome of like
4:48some fairy thing it's a process it's
4:50it's how can we deal with our
4:52differences constructively and you know
4:55in a sense I like to provoke I like to
4:58provoke people by sometimes say
5:00I personally believe the world needs
5:01more conflict not less and that's not to
5:04keep me in a job but that's because
5:07wherever there's change that needs to be
5:09done in families in communities in
5:11businesses or whether there's injustices
5:14you need conflict you need to engage
5:16yeah you need stop avoiding you need to
5:18engage it but the way in which you
5:21engage is critical do you engage by
5:24listening do you engage by cooperation
5:26do you engage by using creativity you
5:28engage by collaboration
5:30or do you engage by you know going to
5:33war and uh and we all know how Wars turn
5:37out everybody
5:38loses can you tell a specific story from
5:41your peace
5:42negotiating where there were two sides
5:46that have historical hatred for each
5:49other how you were able to find a
5:51breakthrough that they could see each
5:52other as actually more more the same
5:55than different or at least in common
5:56causes I'm going to tell a story I
5:58usually don't tell a number of years ago
6:01there was a terrible Civil War raging in
6:04the country of Turkey between the Turks
6:06and the Kurds there was a there was a
6:08Kurdish separatist movement
6:10and 3,000 Villages were destroyed tens
6:14of thousands of people were killed it
6:15was going on over many many years and in
6:19the midst of it a group of Turkish
6:22leaders and Kurdish leaders who were
6:24former top military parliamentarians
6:26Congress people and so on small group of
6:29them we brought them out of turkey cuz
6:31they couldn't meet in Turkey in fact we
6:33brought them to a place in Switzerland
6:36just a quiet place and they couldn't be
6:38known to be even talking to each other
6:39because they would be considered
6:40traitors by their own side that's how
6:42tense it was and there is one guy who
6:46was one of the Turkish guys when he was
6:48young in the University he'd been member
6:50of the I think was called the white
6:51wolves which was a kind of a
6:53shadowy paramilitary kind of terrorist
6:57organization and he was described to is
6:59someone who' rather shoot a kurd than
7:03sit down and talk with a kurd so he was
7:05there we're meeting in the morning and I
7:09say to them I want to hear from each
7:10side what do you most want what do you
7:12really care about what's really
7:15important to you here and one of the
7:18Kurdish leaders started talking about
7:22the right to self-determination to to
7:24choose your own fate choose your own
7:27destiny and as soon as that word
7:30self-determination came up this Turkish
7:33guy got up and said that's treason you
7:36you that that's criminal to even use
7:39that phrase self-determination I'm
7:41leaving here what am I doing here and he
7:42stormed out of the room and everyone was
7:45in kind of shock and so I went after him
7:48and with a with another colleague of his
7:51and said look you know it's really
7:53important to your point of view be heard
7:55here come on back in he was he was going
7:58to leave was packing his back to leave
8:00he came back in and explained what what
8:04it meant to him and then the kurish
8:08leader said uh you know I didn't get a
8:10chance to finish what I was going to say
8:12I believe that all human beings have the
8:13right to self-determination and I as a
8:16Kurdish citizen of turkey believe that
8:19we Kurds ought to exercise our right of
8:21self-determination to remain part of
8:24turkey and and I'll tell you something
8:26if an external enemy attacked turkey I
8:29would sign up for the Army and and give
8:31my life for
8:33turkey just that chance to really listen
8:36to what they actually said then
8:38something really interesting happened
8:41which was that night that was that
8:44little breakthrough I saw everyone's
8:46eyes when when the Kurdish leader said
8:48that it was like the the the emotional
8:51reading in the room it kind of like oh
8:54that's what you mean when you get a
8:55chance to really listen to what the
8:56other person says rather you know that
8:58was that immediate trigger well that
9:00night I saw these that Kurdish guy and
9:03Turkish Guy having dinner we were having
9:04dinner and they were sitting at their
9:06own table and with a couple others and
9:07they were talking heatedly and and
9:09whatever it is and then I noticed wow
9:11they're really deep into it and uh and
9:14then the next morning when we were
9:17starting the Turkish guy who'd been the
9:19member of the the white wolves and who'
9:21been so triggered said uh I I just want
9:24to start by saying something he said
9:26last night at
9:27dinner I heard for the first time what
9:30the Kurds have gone through in the
9:32course of this war what they've suffered
9:35the killings the Tor just even for being
9:38able to speak their language in this
9:40country it was forbidden it was was
9:42against the law to speak the Kurdish
9:43language their own language or to have
9:45their own religious festivals it was all
9:47against the law and uh and he said I I
9:51finally got that and he said and that
9:53last night I didn't sleep a
9:55wek and I want to tell you something he
9:58said if someone had told told me a month
10:01ago that I'd be sitting here listening
10:04to courage talk about self-determination
10:08or Kurdistan I would have thought I was
10:10living my worst nightmare but now I
10:15understand I think I'm living in a dream
10:17I want to thank you for opening my eyes
10:20and it wasn't that he abandoned his side
10:23he just understood The Other Side Story
10:25and it was like there was a real just
10:28like a shift in the whole room in and
10:31this is what I love about conflicts is
10:33you got to work with the ones who are
10:35not just the moderates work with the
10:37so-called extremists because they're the
10:39ones when they shift when they have that
10:42shift it changes the whole
10:44room I think people forget that you
10:47can't make peace with your
10:50friends you can only make peace with an
10:52enemy right and so if you desire peace
10:55in a
10:56nation then you have no option but to
10:59Eng engage with someone that you
11:00consider literally the enemy right um
11:05that's it and you know so I mean this is
11:07why I do this work is you know because
11:09people wow must be really tiring you
11:12know I worked know 40 40 50 years on the
11:15Middle East Ukraine you know just name
11:18name the conflict and and you know must
11:21be absolutely exhausting but the thing
11:23is those moments when human beings are
11:27actually touching into that thing
11:29there's an energy that comes there's a
11:31there's a light that comes in the
11:33darkness you can see courage you can see
11:35little acts of courage and it's alive
11:38there's an aliveness in the middle of
11:40those conflicts that often you don't
11:42find when people are just kind of you
11:43know off living their lives as you're
11:46talking about
11:47this what's going through my mind is
11:49this is not dissimilar than having a
11:52functional relationship of any sorts
11:54it's the exact same thing and I'm
11:56thinking about my own sort of
11:58relationships
12:00and I think the mistake that we
12:03make is that the reason we get triggered
12:06and the reason we lose control and the
12:08reason we attack or feel attacked is to
12:13prepare and I know that in my
12:16relationships when I have been in a time
12:18of Peace whether with my partner or by
12:21myself to mentally prepare ourselves or
12:25to mentally prepare myself for the time
12:28the inevitable time where there will be
12:30disagreement tension or a fight that we
12:33establish the rules in peace time so
12:37that we're prepared in war as opposed to
12:40just trying to invent the rules each
12:44time and I know one of the things that
12:46helped me was we agreed that if we fight
12:50or when we fight that we would fight
12:53instead of me versus her it would be us
12:55versus the problem or that we would
12:58fight to get to
13:01resolution and I remember being in an
13:03argument in
13:05tension and I would have to remind
13:07myself I'm not fighting to get to
13:09resolution here I'm fighting to be right
13:10I would catch myself but I did the work
13:14I was I I I built the muscle memory
13:17before the tension arrived and I'll just
13:20give you one example of how it worked
13:22and I'm hoping that this helps for those
13:24political
13:25discourses we were having a a
13:27disagreement and it went something like
13:29this here's what I did right and here's
13:31what you did wrong and her response is
13:34oh yeah well here's what I did right and
13:35here's what you did wrong and my
13:37response is oh yeah well here's what I
13:38did right and here's what you did and
13:40you could see where this was going and
13:42it was getting more heated it was
13:43getting more personal and I realized
13:45that we were breaking our own rules
13:47about how we're fighting we weren't
13:49fighting to get to resolution we were
13:51fighting against each other and I
13:53literally interrupted the fight I said
13:56this is clearly not working new rules
13:59I said from now on I'm going to tell you
14:01what I did wrong and what you did right
14:03and then it's going to be your turn and
14:04I'll go first I said here's what I did
14:06wrong and here's what you did right and
14:08she goes oh yeah well here's what I did
14:10wrong and here's what you did right we
14:12were good in five minutes or less
14:15because we realized we realized the
14:17other person was actually trying yeah
14:19right as opposed to finding all the
14:21failures and I I think that's an
14:24interesting technique whether that works
14:26with political discourse or not which is
14:28here's something think you have
14:29fundamentally right what my party has
14:31fundamentally wrong yeah to to actually
14:34change to change the rules of the
14:36discourse engage in what can be called
14:39meta talk talk about the talk talk about
14:42the talk before you have the talk you
14:44know set the ground rules and so much
14:47easier to do that when you're in peace
14:48with each other than when you're at War
14:51and uh a little bit of preparation I
14:53think about it those conversations are
14:56some of the most important conversations
14:57we have in our relationship there make
14:59or break conversations cumulatively
15:01right yeah a relationship fails or
15:04succeeds depends on the way in which we
15:06deal with those conversations when we
15:07have conflict I've seen surveys of
15:10psychologists say the single biggest
15:14success factor in a
15:16relationship is how people deal with
15:19conflict so if that's so important to
15:21you think about you're going to make a
15:23presentation at
15:25work you don't just go on the Fly and do
15:27it you prepare you rehearse you think
15:31about it you prepare yourself mentally
15:32and emotionally yeah the conversations
15:35that you're going to have with your most
15:37intimate ones or with people your most
15:38intimate enemies you know or whatever
15:41the ones at the Thanksgiving table
15:43they're crucial for relationships that
15:46will go on for years they they matter to
15:49us so prepare take a moment to prepare
15:52as a rule of thumb take as much time to
15:56prepare as you're going to have the
15:57conversation one to one
16:00but even if it's less even if you're
16:02about to get on the phone if you've got
16:05one minute just take one minute of
16:09Silence calm
16:11yourself breathe and then remember what
16:14the rules are remember what your
16:16intention is remember what your why is
16:19and it could be so helpful and you just
16:21came up with it right there in your
16:23conversation with your partner everyone
16:25will come up with the things that work
16:27for them but the most important
16:28important thing I think is just to
16:30remember to pause yeah we're in a world
16:33where there's no pauses anymore yeah you
16:35know we've got these uh phones they
16:37deprive us of pauses we used to have
16:39pauses now you go to a restaurant
16:41everyone's looking at their phone no one
16:42pauses from where are those little
16:44moments between conversations when you
16:47can
16:48pause remember what it's about think
16:52about it give yourself those little
16:54micro pauses in the course of your day
16:57and um you'll be much more successful
16:59this is so interesting and as you're as
17:01you're as you're saying these things a
17:02lot of a lot of ideas and experiences
17:04are sort of coming back to to my mind
17:07you know another one in relationship
17:09which is I remember we were having a
17:12conversation
17:13and and she was saying things to me that
17:16were triggering like she was hitting my
17:19insecurities she was hitting my just
17:22just I was getting defensive I wouldn't
17:24let her finish a sentence cuz I needed
17:26to defend myself there was some
17:28preparation
17:29at at a at another time for another
17:32reason that I was able to recall in the
17:33moment was this is her story it doesn't
17:38have to be right and I don't have to
17:39agree with it it is her story and my job
17:43is to listen to her story it is the
17:45technique that you talk about going to
17:47the balcony which is I was able to
17:49remove myself from myself in that
17:53moment and I still got triggered but I
17:55was able to not take it as personally
17:57and I just like she's not attacking you
17:59she's telling you her
18:00story if you're feeling attacked it's
18:03okay just listen to her story her story
18:05doesn't have to be right it doesn't have
18:06to be accurate you don't have to agree
18:07with it it's just the story just listen
18:09to the story and I was able to not
18:13disconnect myself from the conversation
18:14I remained present and I remained
18:17curious but it really helped me to not
18:21take the things that were being said to
18:22me personally and this is what you're
18:24talking about about going to the
18:26balcony that's it that's it the thing is
18:29it's so simple and it's something that
18:31any of us can do yeah it's like this
18:34isn't like something you have to go to
18:35school for this is something you know we
18:38have practice every single day I'm I'm
18:40learning this I've been doing this for a
18:42long time but it's like this is our
18:44daily practice as human beings we're
18:46going to be faced with tensions and
18:48right now in the world in this country
18:50obviously they're Amplified so it's even
18:52more important but just put yourself in
18:54their shoes and hear their story it
18:56might be as simple as someone says
18:58something to you we're about to give our
19:00response oh let me tell you what it
19:02looks like from my point of view well
19:04that's important but what about just
19:06taking a moment and saying let me make
19:08sure I heard what you're
19:11saying and you just paraphrase back to
19:14them what you heard them
19:16say and say have I got it right where
19:18did I get it wrong yeah and do you know
19:22what that does first of all we think
19:24we're communicating clearly but we may
19:27not be actually hearing them yeah yeah A
19:30and B is you just do that it g it it
19:34kind of slows down the conversation so
19:36you can actually the pace you can
19:38actually deal with something but it also
19:41signals them that you're trying to
19:43listen to them that you're trying to
19:44hear their story and so it communicates
19:47basic human respect everyone every human
19:50being wants to be seen they want to be
19:52heard they want to be listened to this
19:54is our Birthright this is listening is
19:56our Birthright we've got two years and
19:58one for reason to listen twice as much
20:00as we
20:01talk can you tell us one of the
20:03uncomfortable
20:04truths about finding common ground or
20:07listening and I learned this from DIA
20:10Khan um I I think you know Dia Dia is a
20:14bafta winning uh documentarian I've told
20:18her story a few times on here um she
20:20made some comments about Multicultural
20:22Society on the BBC and for some reason
20:26her comments went viral in the white
20:27supremacist community
20:29and the white supremacist started
20:30trolling her to the point where it got
20:32so dangerous that the police told her to
20:33stay away from
20:36Windows and the way that di reacted
20:38she's a Muslim woman living in the UK
20:40the way that she reacted is she moved to
20:42the United States to meet some of the
20:45white supremacists and she was walking
20:48in Charlottesville not marching in
20:49Charlottesville she was walking with
20:51them in uh in charlotesville and she
20:54actually ended up making a documentary
20:55called White right meeting the enemy
20:57about her experience of going to meet
20:59these white supremacists and she gave
21:01them a safe space to feel
21:04heard because they don't usually get
21:06that right they either get attacked and
21:09one of the leaders of the white
21:10supremacist movement says when I go on
21:11TV it's a win-win for me because it's a
21:13recruiting tool he says they either let
21:16me spew my stuff in which case it's
21:18great for recruiting or if they shut off
21:21my microphone I'm the victim and it's
21:22great for recruiting so it's a win-win
21:24for me right but he was he offered Dia a
21:27short period of time and offered her
21:28more and more and more and when Dia said
21:30why do you keep giving me more time he
21:32said because no one's actually been
21:33curious about my point of view now she
21:36didn't agree with him obviously but she
21:39she gave him a safe space to feel heard
21:41and I and I talked to DIA after January
21:446 and I've talked to De after uh George
21:47Floyd and she's worked with jihadis and
21:49white supremacists and all these people
21:51oh I should tell you before I go on that
21:54um what you see in this documentary is
21:57these white supremacists who hate Dia
21:59because she's a Muslim right they over
22:03the course of time they start to trust
22:04her and consider her a friend and then
22:06they struggle to reconcile their racist
22:08points of view with the fact that they
22:10consider this woman a friend and slowly
22:13one by one they drop out of the white
22:14supremacist
22:15movement so so her her technique of
22:19making the other feel heard and allowing
22:22them to come to the realization of the
22:23absurdity of their of their views
22:26actually was more uh helpful than her
22:29spitting on them at a rally which by the
22:32way she's done as well and she said I
22:34would go to these rallies and spit on
22:35the white supremacists when I was
22:36younger and we would go home and high
22:38five each other and feel like we were
22:39the best and all the self-righteousness
22:41but she came to the realization that she
22:43affected zero um that's beautiful and
22:46that's I mean that's such a powerful
22:47story and and I bring it back to the
22:49question you asked the question earlier
22:51of
22:52like we're so polarized or we appear to
22:55be so polarized when actually there's an
22:57exhausted majority in the and the and
22:59the people on the extremes are Amplified
23:02what's the next step what what do we do
23:04and I think she just points the way any
23:06one of us has the ability to reach out
23:10to one person yeah whom we know who's
23:13probably a family member who's a f who
23:16was a friend who was a colleague who was
23:18something who was a neighbor who we
23:21happen to suspect or no has a very
23:24different opinion than ours and is on
23:26the other side of the divide and
23:29do what she does which is listen to them
23:32respect them uh you know dignity is
23:36indivisible my dignity is the same as
23:38your dignity if if your dignity is
23:39assaulted my dignity is assaulted it's
23:41not like it's like a it's not a zero sum
23:44game here
23:46but go ahead no but just just reach out
23:51and prepare like you were saying you
23:54know prepare you know think about it and
23:57then listen to them prepare so you don't
23:59get triggered you draw them out more you
24:02meet animosity with curiosity and guess
24:06what you're gonna have a lot more
24:08influence yeah in oh that person
24:12listened to me well maybe they're not
24:14also so you know just the same as the
24:16white supremacist began to drop drop out
24:18you're GNA have a lot more influence
24:19it's a much more powerful thing to do
24:22the the uncomfortable truth though that
24:23DIA has discovered and again I talked
24:25after January 6 I talked after George
24:27Floyd I've talked to uh Fair bit she
24:29says the uncomfortable truth that people
24:30don't want to accept is in her
24:32experience almost always it's the victim
24:34that has to go
24:36first and the victim has to listen to
24:38the
24:39oppressor and the standard reaction is
24:42why should I have to I've I've been
24:44enduring their their my whole life
24:48and now I have to listen to them they
24:49should listen to me but the problem is
24:51they won't the problem is they won't
24:53that's it the white supremacist is not
24:55going to offer a safe space for Dia to
24:57feel heard it's just
24:59not and so the uncomfortable truth is as
25:02exhausted as as they may be
25:05unfortunately it's the victim or the
25:06person who feels victimized that has to
25:09go first and offer the safe space for
25:11the other to feel heard and at that
25:13point when to your point when they when
25:15they feel respected and they feel heard
25:17they become vastly more open-minded to
25:19other points of view yeah we have really
25:22good examples of that I mean you know
25:23like Martin Luther King you know he he
25:28was the one who held the Olive Branch
25:29out that's what made the magic of the
25:31Civil Rights Movement Mandela he's in
25:33prison 27 years he comes out and holds
25:36out the Olive Branch to his white
25:39enemies in fact in prison you know what
25:41did he did the first thing he did in
25:43prison was he learned Africans the
25:46language of his enemy that's what he
25:48studied in prison and not only did he
25:49study their language he studied their
25:52history their own history of traumas in
25:54the Boer War the first concentration
25:56camps he understood it so then that's
25:59what made him so
26:01effective so it's not just um kind of
26:04being nice it's actually being effective
26:07it's actually being practical it's you
26:09want to change people's minds this is
26:10how you do it well so there's a Common
26:12Thread here which I think is so
26:13interesting which is usually when we we
26:15create caricatures of the other right we
26:18literally call them the other right and
26:20they become caricatures and we attack
26:22the caricature and that person feels
26:24triggered because they feel attacked and
26:26they they become even more sort of
26:29entrenched in their ideas even if they
26:31would disagree with themselves because
26:33they feel attacked they become
26:34entrenched defensive and in all of these
26:37cases whether it was the white wolf or
26:40Mandela which is they took the time to
26:43decarat eyes they took time to get rid
26:47of the stereotypes or the assumptions
26:49and they actually whether by listening
26:51or by studying separately they learned
26:54the real history and they could
26:56understand the others point of view and
26:58why they would be so defensive about X Y
27:00or Z from a historical or realistic or P
27:05even a perception
27:07standpoint uh but they took time to
27:11understand the other doesn't mean agree
27:13and I think people misunderstand that
27:15which is which is giving someone a safe
27:17space to feel heard does not mean you
27:19agree it does not mean you endorse and
27:21it doesn't mean you've let go of your
27:23own values your own point of view all
27:25you've done is allowed the other person
27:27to feel
27:28that they matter that there that there's
27:30dignity and when we get to the point
27:32where when we say to ourselves but they
27:34don't matter then I think we need to
27:36take a hard look at ourselves and say
27:37maybe I'm part of the
27:39problem that's
27:41it that's it you know it the work I mean
27:44interestingly enough we project we Pro
27:48you know we project all the bad stuff on
27:50others it's easier you know we're the
27:51good ones and they're the bad ones and
27:53you know the most
27:56effective leaders the most effective
27:59influencers even on a onetoone
28:01interpersonal thing are people who do a
28:03little bit of work themselves just like
28:06you did in that conversation
28:08relationship this is what I did
28:10wrong and this is what you did right you
28:13switched it yeah you actually took a
28:15little bit of responsibility and by
28:17taking responsibility you gave yourself
28:19more power that's the that's the key
28:21thing here it's not just about being
28:23nice it's about being powerful what is
28:25the powerful way to behave in the this
28:28world that gets you the world you want
28:30to live in and then the next
28:33stage
28:35is to leave behind the make wrong the
28:39right or
28:40wrong and just
28:42realize okay uh what if we actually set
28:47aside the blame game for a moment even
28:49the self-blame game and just said
28:52everyone's human being they've got their
28:55traumas they've got their own thing
28:56they're behaving the way they're
28:58behaving and maybe we can everyone has
29:02their own you know point of view it's
29:04valid to them it may not be valid to me
29:07uh every human being no matter who they
29:10are no matter what they've
29:13done deserves basic human respect it's
29:16just a Birthright we're not talking
29:17about something they have to earn yeah
29:19because of approval or something like
29:21that it's just something you're born
29:22with hostage negotiators and I've dealt
29:24I've trained a lot of them what's their
29:27secret how how they take these uh
29:29situations that happen every day in the
29:30New York City hostage Department what do
29:33they do when they're dealing with armed
29:34criminals who are supposedly evil people
29:37and thinking you know all this
29:39stuff it's like I remember talking to
29:41one New York cop who said what I learned
29:43is just be nice I mean but just respect
29:46a little bit of human respect you're
29:48trying to influence that person you're
29:49trying to get them to surrender the
29:52hostage you're trying to make sure that
29:54you know it's not a firefight where a
29:55lot of people die a little bit of human
29:58respect it's like that little bit of
30:00deposit you put in yeah changes the
30:02whole situation if you're going to
30:04change someone first of all it's hard to
30:06change someone but if you're gonna do it
30:08it costs you nothing it's the cheapest
30:09concession you can offer a little bit of
30:12respect costs you nothing but it means
30:14everything to the other side because
30:15it's their dignity and so you're who no
30:18matter who you're dealing with a little
30:20bit of respect goes a long way towards
30:22being able to influence them to do what
30:24you want them to do yeah because
30:27negotiation is about influence you're
30:29trying to change someone else's mind how
30:31can you possibly change someone else's
30:33mind unless you know where their mind is
30:36so it's not just about being altruistic
30:39it's like I mean know your enemy you
30:41know I
30:43remember once many years ago I was
30:45working on the Cold War I gave a talk at
30:46the US Naval War college and I was
30:48saying you know if we're going to deal
30:50with the Soviets we have to understand
30:54them and one Navy Captain got up and
30:57said
30:58you want me to put myself in the Soviet
31:01shoes that might distort my judgment but
31:05in fact in war what's the first thing
31:07know your enemy so even in Warfare
31:10you've got to know your enemy so in any
31:13kind of
31:13situation the ability to put yourself in
31:16your in their shoes doesn't mean that
31:17you're taking their side just means
31:20understand them it's gonna help you so
31:23much more than sitting in your righteous
31:25Corner yeah and these PE and like my
31:28friend who we were talking about our
31:29friend you know who who when I said we
31:32need to learn to listen to the other
31:33side who got angry at me he thinks he
31:35does from his own bias point of view and
31:38re and listening to his own media he
31:40thinks he does understand them he ha he
31:42believes the caricature that he's
31:44created in his mind and that his
31:46politicians keep hammering home and
31:48reinforcing and his Echo chamber and his
31:51friends and his dinner tables have all
31:53reinforced for him he thinks he
31:54understands even though he's engaged
31:56with the opposite side a total of Z
31:58hero right well that's the key we think
32:02we might be listening we're oh I'm
32:04listening and what we're doing is our
32:06mind is saying I disagree with that I
32:08disagree with that I disagree with that
32:10this is what I'm gonna say I'm going to
32:11refute no what what genuine listening is
32:14is you move the spotlight from your
32:17thoughts for a moment to where they are
32:20their thoughts their feelings where
32:21they're coming from and try to
32:23understand them from within their
32:25perspective not from within your
32:27perspective
32:28but from within their perspective that's
32:30what putting yourself in their shoes
32:31mean you know what's funny is all these
32:32people who hate their enemies
32:34politically in our nation are probably
32:37pretty good at this exact skill with
32:39their kids you know when your kid is
32:42angry about something the first thing we
32:45do is validate the kids' feelings we
32:47don't disagree with the kids feelings
32:49you know good parents will say boy yeah
32:51I understand why you're frustrated that
32:53that's really hard that your sister took
32:56took your cheese I I understand why you
32:58would be mad at that and the minute you
33:00validate the feelings now you can have a
33:02conversation about how to get to
33:03resolution instead of punching your
33:05sister that there's another
33:07way but we don't do that with adults for
33:09some reason we invalidate their feelings
33:11on a regular basis and yet we know if we
33:13invalidate a child it's going to get
33:15worse and yet why we think adults act
33:19any differently because those lyic
33:21systems that control all of our emotions
33:23they don't mature as we get older
33:25they're the same exactly exact exactly
33:28it's
33:29like this capacity is within each of us
33:33it's not this is not rocket science this
33:36is something we know it does take
33:38practice but it does take practice it
33:40takes practice it takes a little bit of
33:42Courage it's like apology kids know
33:45you're playing a game with other kids
33:47you break the rules somehow you say I'm
33:49sorry you're back in the
33:52game adults oh no I can't
33:55apologize I can't apologize lawyers I
33:58can't apologize no apology is the simple
34:02human capacity that we have to repair a
34:04relationship admit that you did
34:07something and then you can move on and
34:08you can be back in the game but no I'm
34:10too proud I'm I'm an adult now you know
34:13that something like 70% of medical
34:14malpractice suits are because the doctor
34:15refused to apologize right I believe it
34:19I'll tell you something I mean back to
34:21that same Turkish Kurdish situation now
34:23that I'm thinking about it was happened
34:2430 years ago but it was like in another
34:28session Turkish and Kurdish leaders were
34:29meeting at risk to their own lives
34:31remember it was really tense because
34:33there had been a lot of Bloodshed and
34:35suffering the issues were highly
34:37emotional at one point there was a
34:40retired Turkish
34:42Admiral and he said I let me just say
34:45something for a moment he
34:46said as a retired member of the Turkish
34:50Armed Forces on behalf of my you know my
34:55colleagues I want to
34:59acknowledge the
35:01suffering that the Kurdish villagers and
35:04all the Kurds suffered over the last 30
35:06years all the thousands of villages that
35:09were raised to the ground and people
35:12killed people tortured said and I want
35:15to
35:17apologize well you could have heard a
35:20pin drop in that room there is this like
35:23I mean this is the thing when when
35:24something happens genuine like that
35:26there is this kind of like
35:29quiet and it was like and then
35:32spontaneous Applause from from the Kurds
35:36and the Turks from everyone yeah and
35:38that moment that little moment that one
35:41little apology that one little
35:42acknowledgement it's it doesn't like
35:45solve everything but it shifted the
35:46emotional tone and out of that meeting
35:49then these same people agreed to form a
35:53kind of a network to work together like
35:56you were saying instead up against each
35:58other against the problem of the war and
36:00so on and that work went on for years
36:02afterwards and a lot of it I tribute to
36:06that little shift one person making an
36:09apology W if I can
36:11summarize the magic that is Bill Yuri
36:14and the conversation that we've just had
36:16what I what I've learned from you is
36:19that whether whatever conflict someone
36:21would like to resolve or lean into
36:25whether it's political disagreement
36:27disagreement or tension with a a loved
36:28one a business tension that if we take
36:32responsibility to set in motion to
36:34resolve the conflict peacefully if we
36:36set in motion our desire to try and
36:39understand the person with whom we
36:40disagree or we've labeled as evil or the
36:43problem we've labed them as the problem
36:44and if we ourselves can affect that
36:46change the ripples are incredible
36:48because if I am able to make someone
36:50who's prepping for a fight with me
36:52because they think I'm prepping for a
36:53fight with them if I'm able to change
36:56the whole tone of that ation and that
36:58they leave my home feeling seen and
37:02heard then the next person that they
37:04engage with they will take the lessons
37:07that they felt and try and project them
37:09on the other as well and then those
37:11people will take the lessons how they
37:13felt from that and before you know it
37:14the ripples lead to World Peace and if
37:18we want to change the discourse in our
37:20nation then change starts at home and
37:23instead of criticizing the other or
37:24criticizing the politicians or saying
37:26that they have to start we have to start
37:28every one of us needs to take
37:30responsibility to do our part to resolve
37:32conflict peacefully and then watch the
37:34ripples that's the key to World Peace
37:36starts right
37:38here bill every time I talk to you I
37:41hear I learn something new I'm inspired
37:44thank you so much for taking the time to
37:46to sit down with me I I always love
37:48talking to you I love talking with you
37:50Simon I love you and I love it's it's
37:52funny right now we're at this kind of
37:55critical moment and
37:58I see so much possibility it's just all
38:00depends it's like we're on a Razor's
38:02Edge our future could go pretty dystopic
38:06or it could be pretty good and it all of
38:08it depends there's no problem on Earth
38:11that we cannot tackle if only we can
38:15work together and the only thing that's
38:17in the way of us working together is
38:18this quote conflict so if we can deal
38:20with our conflicts constructively we can
38:23work together and we can make the world
38:25we want for us and for our friends
38:27friends for our families for our
38:29communities and for our world and that's
38:31the
38:32key
38:34amen thank you Bill thanks
38:38Simon if you enjoyed this podcast and
38:41would like to hear more please subscribe
38:43wherever you like to listen to podcasts
38:45and if you'd like even more optimism
38:47check out my website simon.com for
38:51classes videos and more until then take
38:54care of yourself take care of each other

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