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YouTube2Text → Transcripts → Pav Gill: Wirecard Whistleblower & Building Confide Platform After $Billion Fraud – E585

Pav Gill: Wirecard Whistleblower & Building Confide Platform After $Billion Fraud – E585 — Transcript

by BRAVE Southeast Asia Tech Podcast with Jeremy Au · 12,308 words · 1,716 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00But I always like to remind everyone
0:01like wire cards are very rare case of
0:03successful whistleblowing. Yeah. Because
0:05a company actually suffered the
0:07consequences, right? But in most cases,
0:09whistleblowers get exposed in the
0:10process and absolutely damaged, right?
0:13So yeah, it's something to always keep
0:15in mind. Welcome to Brave. Learn from
0:18Southeast Asia's best tech leaders.
0:21Build the future, learn from our past,
0:24and stay human in between. No BS on
0:27success. I'm Jeremy Al, venture
0:30capitalist, Sarah founder, Harvard MBA,
0:33science fiction nerd, and dad of two
0:36daughters. Every week, we debate startup
0:38news, interview change makers, answer
0:41listener questions, and share personal
0:43insights. Join our movement of over
0:4540,000 members, and get transcripts,
0:48resources, and community at
0:53www.ravecea.com. Stay well and stay
0:55brave.
0:57Hey, Pav. Good to see you. Yeah,
0:59likewise. Thanks for having me. Yeah.
1:01Well, it's so interesting because I've
1:03heard about your story through bits and
1:05pieces and now I finally get to see the
1:07person behind this whistleblower story.
1:11Anyway, I would love for you to
1:12introduce yourself. Sure. So, I'm Pav. I
1:15started as a lawyer. Spent maybe five,
1:18six years in some magic circle firms.
1:20Alan Overy, Clipper Chance, Warriors was
1:22in the Middle East as well. And then I
1:23came back to Singapore. I joined my
1:25first fintech startup called Go Bear.
1:27Like to say it's a very innocent startup
1:29cuz it was just doing comparison like
1:32what's the best insurance rates and
1:34stuff right and of course compared to
1:36what came after that it was definitely a
1:39big change. So wire card was the next
1:41one I was the first head of legal for
1:42the Asia Pacific region. and I was
1:44headunted by them and then all the fun
1:46stuff happened and then I left the
1:48company joined Wise as the first APC
1:50council and then moved to the crypto
1:52space 2 years in Bangkok and now I'm a
1:54founder and CEO of my own startup. Yeah.
1:57Fantastic. So lots to unpack here and I
2:01think just go maybe straight to the
2:03beginning here is you know you when you
2:05became a lawyer in the first place. Were
2:07you like you want to be a lawyer because
2:08like you know fight for justice or like
2:11when you were like like everybody has
2:13made a decision whether to be a lawyer
2:14or banker or something like I think
2:17after you around university that level
2:20right so why did you decide to be a
2:21lawyer in the first place? I mean my
2:23mom's a single parent. So she had
2:25actually raised me while she was doing
2:27her law degree. Oh, okay. I used to be
2:29at the back of her lectures with my
2:31coloring book and then when we go home
2:34I'll ask her what's the meaning of
2:35constitution criminal and cuz she was
2:38studying right so I think that seed was
2:40planted from that moment right and it
2:43was definitely more fun in the sense
2:44that I used to like debates. I actually
2:46founded the debate society in Victoria
2:48school. My best friend of many years was
2:51one of your descendants I guess then as
2:53a result. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, and it's
2:56more fun for me than maths and science
2:57which I wasn't like perfect at you or
3:00anywhere close. So, yeah, it was a
3:02natural thing just be a lawyer. I never
3:04expected to be a lawyer in the finance
3:06space. I always was very driven by a
3:10wanting to represent the downtrodden and
3:13destroy council on the other side. And
3:15also my first novel was a time to kill
3:17by John Gisham which was also his first
3:20book. Yeah. So in primary six I read
3:22that and I think from there on after
3:24reading the firm and all these other
3:25books by him I was like yeah this is
3:27definitely what I want to be be a lawyer
3:29because it sounds so exciting in the
3:30book right I mean so but then what's
3:33interesting your life became did become
3:34exciting so most people I would say like
3:36when you read a John Gisham book about
3:38legal thriller it their life is quite
3:40boring and they end up writing contracts
3:42and obviously there's a b bunch of work
3:44but let's talk about that. So you work
3:45at a bunch of different corporate
3:46careers and what was it like to
3:49obviously be a go bear which is I think
3:51for those who know early days of the
3:53Singapore tech scene we remember go bear
3:55but what was it like to be headunted by
3:57Wire Card like was it like a experience?
4:00Were you looking to leave Go Bear? How
4:02did you get headunted? Yeah. Yeah, I was
4:04super happy to be hired by Wire Card. So
4:07it was a head-hunted there was a
4:09head-hunted process to it where I was
4:10approached by a recruiter. Yeah. I was
4:12very desperate to be in the fintech
4:14scene. So that's why I joined Goar for
4:16example and I had a huge massive pay
4:18cut. I think I was getting after CPF
4:21like 5k a month. Oh yeah yeah sounds
4:23right. But that was really the sacrifice
4:26I made to get in the fintech space cuz I
4:28was always doing corporate finance right
4:30and I always had a insane like interest
4:32in tech. I think we are from the
4:34generation that grew up with the 486
4:37pantiums. We used to go to sim limb
4:38square and build them but there wasn't
4:41any kind of like it fintech aspect in
4:43terms of the law. There was a whole IT
4:45boom boom which I wasn't part of. So
4:48when fintech was booming I was like okay
4:50let's not miss this boat. So that was
4:52how I got into it. So wireart was great
4:54because of the autonomy and the fact
4:56that of course my salary was being
4:58equalized. Yeah. Back to normal. Yeah.
5:00Which is it is super essential for
5:02Singapore, right? It's an expensive
5:03place to be. But the fact that I was
5:06looking after 13 markets in the region
5:07and it was a German company was
5:09obviously doing very well. I think that
5:11gave me a sense of um happiness to be
5:15part of this place. Yeah. And what's
5:17interesting is that obviously today
5:18obviously we remember it as a unicorn
5:20that imploded because of fraud. But at
5:23that time how big was way head hunted
5:25you from your perspective? It was big.
5:27It was already I think it already had a
5:29market cap of in USD about 30 billion at
5:33least. Yeah. So it was already bigger
5:35than Deutsche Bank and Commerce Bank
5:37combined and it was listed and they were
5:39trying to get into the DEX index which
5:41they eventually did during my time. So
5:43they kicked Commerce Bank out of the DEX
5:45index and took its place. So it was a
5:47very big company and clearly doing well.
5:49Yeah. And so they had hired you because
5:52they were expanding in APAC and they
5:54wanted you to be the legal council for
5:55them. So what was your first day like at
5:58Wire? Was like like a laptop or I think
6:01everybody was in office back then.
6:02Nobody was working remotely, I guess.
6:04But I'm just kind of curious like, well,
6:05do you remember your first day at WCOT?
6:07Yeah, my first day was actually in
6:08Munich. Yeah. And it was fantastic cuz
6:11it was October Fest. Oh. And I never
6:14been to Germany before. So that was a
6:16great start, right? The general council
6:18told my my direct supervisor to take me
6:21around Munich. So yeah, it was a good
6:23start. But in terms of laptop, when I
6:25flew back to Singapore 3 days or 2 days
6:27later, nobody even knew why I was here.
6:30So I didn't get my laptop. Yeah. So it
6:32was quite a shock in terms of how Europe
6:35was structured wire card wise very
6:37formal very the setups advanced and then
6:41Singapore and APEC was run in a very
6:43startup way right it was like a coding
6:45space or no they had a proper office in
6:47Asia Square but because they came into
6:50the region through a series of M&As so
6:52they're just buying up these obscure
6:54payment companies for big amounts of
6:56money um and also they purchase City
6:59Bank's merchant acquiring business
7:01Right. So all the terminals and stuff
7:03that was a city transaction to wire
7:05card. So that's why they hired me as
7:07well because finally they couldn't do
7:09the legal stuff out of Munich. Yeah. It
7:11was just getting too intensive. Yeah.
7:13And their structure was so lean like
7:14they only had 13 legal and compliance
7:17stuff globally which for a company
7:19that's processing billions in payments,
7:21it makes no sense. Yeah. And I think
7:24part of it obviously is like it makes
7:26sense, right? Payments is a pain the ass
7:28for so many people, right? like this
7:30wiring across borders and wiring across
7:33different currencies and I think at that
7:35time it was like 200 8 17 or 18. Yeah. I
7:40mean it still it wasn't easy even back
7:42then and so obviously the concept of
7:44like a unicorn company that makes
7:45payments easy to me feels like a slam
7:48dunk. Yeah. Like especially because they
7:50already got to the scale and you need
7:51that scale for payments. Yeah. So it's
7:54kind of confusing because obviously we
7:56know I think of wild card failure but I
7:58think we're kind of getting to it but
8:00when did you start to notice something
8:01was like going wrong I guess. Yeah
8:04because like you said it's big team
8:06billion dollar company he's doing M&A
8:08seems to be doing everything right
8:10product market fit makes sense payments
8:11make it easier. So when did you start
8:13saying like oh something is like not
8:15right. Yeah because all the subsidiaries
8:17were lossmaking. Yeah. So where was the
8:20money coming from? And that was
8:21something you could verify from filed
8:23financials. And this financials were
8:25always filed late one and a half years
8:27late. They'll get warnings and
8:29everything. And the way the this guy
8:31this Indonesian guy called Ido was
8:33running the finance side of things was
8:35very dubious. Yeah. Cuz the guy had a
8:38bad like I mean his CV didn't add up was
8:40inexperienced. He didn't speak English
8:42properly or German for that matter. Why
8:44was he hired as the third most powerful
8:46person in the finance team? Right. And
8:48also wired like to say was a fintech
8:52company focusing more on the tech
8:54element but no one saw where that was
8:56coming from. It was very basic tech.
8:58Alip pay and all these other providers
9:00were doing way more advanced things. So
9:03where was the money coming from? So that
9:04was the first red flag. And then
9:06obviously that led at some point to an
9:08internal whistleblower that came to me.
9:10Yeah. Fearing for her life cuz she
9:13didn't want to carry out transactions
9:15that were clearly illegal anymore. So
9:16that's what kicked everything off. Yeah.
9:19So let's dig deeper into both of them,
9:21right? Because I think there's this like
9:24moment where you're starting to realize
9:26this stuff, right? Like what was it like
9:28for you to realize because like the fact
9:29that I mean most lawyers are like give
9:32me the document in out right no one's
9:34like oh let me look at the financial
9:36subsidiary is lossmaking we all them are
9:38losing does it add up like so my first
9:41question kind of is like were you more
9:43concerned about the Asia subsidiary than
9:45the global were you thinking that this
9:46is a you were thinking that was more of
9:48a Southeast Asia issue at the start yeah
9:50cuz I was looking after the whole of
9:51Asia and I was involved in the financial
9:54stuff because ACRA was sending warning
9:55letters right like you haven't filed
9:57your financial statements. So this
9:59becomes a legal issue. Right. Right. And
10:01then the question is when you dig deep
10:03you realize for 5 years they were always
10:05filing them late after warnings. And the
10:08money just wasn't there. Right. So where
10:10but yet when they were announcing EBID
10:12da every quarter that's like hundreds of
10:14millions equivalent to what the European
10:16side was announcing. Right. So it was
10:19quite funny for the local staff because
10:21I guess the sales staff were very happy
10:23because they were apparently selling
10:25stuff without knowing it but yeah so
10:27that was the big question where was the
10:29money coming from which products which
10:32country because we don't see it on the
10:35subsidiary level right so the gap for
10:37you was more like Europe was reporting
10:39good Asia numbers yes but you knew the
10:41Asia numbers were not good based on what
10:43everyone was saying and so you felt like
10:45there was a gap in that communication
10:48on messaging. Yeah. But it's not what
10:50everyone was saying like these are
10:52verifiable facts. Yeah. Cuz you have to
10:54file your financial statements with
10:55ACRA. Right. Right. And possibly for all
10:58the other countries you can extract
10:59those statements from their equivalent
11:01of ACRA. Right. So it was there for
11:03everyone to see including the auditors.
11:05Right. So that was a big question mark.
11:08But of course it is not normal or at
11:10least it shouldn't be normal for people
11:12to go into companies and start looking
11:14for issues right which which people do
11:18it's really bad especially in the
11:20compliance space I actually know people
11:22that actively do that and then try to
11:24get a higher salary or whatever right or
11:25build leverage against the CEO so they
11:28don't get fired so easily right uh but
11:30it was not in my nature to do that I was
11:32actually trying to figure things out
11:34which is why I was hired so when Munich
11:36hired me they wanted to They told me
11:38they want me to be the eyes and ears on
11:40the ground for the team, right? And
11:43figure out what's happening. So I
11:45thought it was a integration issue cuz
11:46when you expand so fast, clearly there's
11:48integration problems, right? And of
11:50course Asia is a beast of its own
11:53because every country is unique
11:55culturally, right? We're talking about
11:57two subsidiaries in Indonesia. Vietnam
11:59had one. India had another had the most
12:02infamous one. And then Singapore,
12:04Malaysia, and all these things. So I
12:06really thought that I could give some
12:08value ad as someone who's Singaporean
12:11who's familiar with the AP pack region
12:13and assist this poor western company in
12:16assimilating from an integration
12:17standpoint right and so what I'm hearing
12:19is like you you're like okay clearly the
12:22reporting at mothership or HQ is off
12:24from what we're seeing in Apac ape
12:26they're doing these filings it doesn't
12:28add up and so you thought that you were
12:29reporting to HQ you thought it was just
12:31a communication error and it would be
12:34something that would be fixed So when
12:36did it become like and then I think when
12:38did it become like oh this is not
12:39actually like a like you said a
12:41management misunderstanding of
12:42financials which happens when companies
12:44are scaling to be like oh this is a
12:45little bit more systematic or
12:47structural. Was it like you said when
12:48the whistleblower came in or Yeah. No,
12:50there were already serious question
12:51marks because of the way this Edo guy
12:53was running the business, the finance
12:54side, right? I mean, every month he will
12:56fly to Munich to back for wages for the
12:58whole of the region, right? So, her
13:01company is multi-billion dollars in
13:02valuation, why is this happening? Why
13:04are wages being an issue? Should not you
13:08have budgeted wages for the year? Right?
13:11So, all these are really oneonone
13:12things, right? Like logic, you don't
13:14even need to be a finance person, right?
13:15It just doesn't make any sense. So of
13:18course then the whistleblowing triggered
13:20that because again as a lawyer you want
13:23you would wait for that objective
13:25incident or evidence to come across that
13:28you can then work off cuz yeah you may
13:30have all the suspicions in the world but
13:32then that's all they are right you need
13:34that trigger event or that smoking gun
13:36event which would then allow you to
13:38kickstart a independent and objective
13:42look at what's going on. Right. Yeah.
13:44And so let's kind of like dive deeper
13:47into that, right? Which is you're
13:50discussing this. It doesn't seem to make
13:52sense. And you said there was an
13:53internal whistleblower to talk to you.
13:55So obviously you are known as the
13:56whistleblower, but you said there was a
13:58whistleblower who talked to you first.
13:59So it's a bit like I don't know Russian
14:01eggs going down. But what was the
14:02context of that conversation? Was like
14:04in the office or was it coffee? Like how
14:07did this person and why did this person
14:08want to talk to you instead of talking
14:09to her manager or somebody else? Yeah.
14:11Because she didn't trust HR. So HR was
14:14viewed as the spies of management. I
14:17think that's also an issue in many
14:19companies for whatever reason. So she
14:21didn't trust HR. And then I guess
14:23because she was being forced to carry
14:24out illegal transactions, she didn't
14:26want to do them anymore, right? She came
14:28to the legal person which was me and we
14:31had both we were both kind of new in the
14:33company. So I think there was that level
14:35of trust that okay, he's also new so
14:37he's probably not part of this whole
14:39thing, right? So yeah, she called me one
14:41evening and I decided to meet her
14:43outside the office the next morning.
14:45Yeah. And get all the stuff that she
14:46had. So that's why when you talk about
14:48the Russian eggs thing, wire car is very
14:50interesting because it's a case of
14:52double whistleblowing. Yeah. There was
14:53the internal whistleblower that came to
14:55me. Yeah. And then how I became the
14:57external whistleblower, which is what I
14:59always nowadays try to prevent companies
15:01or tell companies you can prevent is the
15:03external whistleblowing. Right. So
15:05encourage the internal one so you can
15:07prevent the external one and not get
15:09hit. Right. Yeah. So that's that's why
15:11wire cuts interesting in that way. Yeah.
15:13And so tell me more about that
15:16conversation. Obviously you didn't share
15:17who the person is, but was it like over
15:18coffee? Was it what was the emotional
15:22tone of that conversation on both sides?
15:24Obviously it was the first time you're
15:26hearing it. How was your reaction? What
15:27was that scene like? Yeah. Yeah. I mean
15:29the person genuinely feared for her
15:31life. Yeah. For various reasons. and I
15:33met outside the office because of that
15:35cuz then it becomes very spy like right
15:38if you're really working in a criminal
15:40organization you don't want things in
15:42the office and be bugged or whatever a
15:45gish novel yeah and it's just a matter
15:47of disconnecting the person from the
15:49office setting cuz that could intimidate
15:51someone right and yeah I mean I need
15:53coffee first thing in the morning so we
15:55went to providor ou gallery oh yeah and
15:58that's why so if you actually watch the
16:00movie which I'm in it's the sky
16:02documentary
16:03that films everything and how it went
16:04down. So, yeah, she gave me the stuff
16:06straight away. I told my supervisors in
16:08Munich. Yeah. And they said, "Okay, go
16:11investigate." Right. So, that's when the
16:13investigation kickstarted. So, this
16:15seems okay so far, right? I mean, if I
16:16was if this was a movie, then the second
16:19part of it will be the internet
16:20whistleblower does it. You reported up
16:22to your superiors. Your superior said,
16:24"Okay, time investigation." And then
16:27probably some heads will roll in the APC
16:29region for illegal transactions. But
16:31obviously that's not what happened
16:32because So what happened? I mean because
16:34I think this what were the illegal
16:36transactions? I think that's the content
16:37of it. But two obviously the
16:38investigation stopped, right? So I'm
16:40just kind of curious how that played
16:42out. Yeah. Yeah. So I was given access
16:43to this EDO guy and two of his sidekicks
16:46currently who are both in jail in
16:47Singapore. Right. Yeah. I was given
16:49access to their raw inboxes. So the
16:51whole inbox they ever had since they
16:52joined the company. Oh, okay. So I spent
16:54the weekend, I remember looking into the
16:56sidekicks inboxes and what I found was
16:59really insane. like these guys were
17:00blatantly emailing logos to themselves
17:04and putting those logos on wire cut
17:06invoice looking templates. So it wasn't
17:08very sophisticated which upset me to
17:10some some extent. Yeah. Because I was
17:12like you know if it was a multi-billion
17:14dollar company engaging in fraud I
17:16expected it to be very sophisticated
17:18right not basic stuff but then I thought
17:20okay maybe this is the tip of the
17:22iceberg. Yeah, the reason there has to
17:24be a reason why they're doing these
17:25things to which could potentially if you
17:28look into it lead to other things. So to
17:30me that was a slam dunk thing that's
17:31forgeries that's creating a fake
17:33contracts and all these money movements
17:35clearly indicating roundtpping. So yeah
17:37I thought like it's just IO and these
17:39few bad egg that we need to deal with
17:41and once they leave the company then
17:44things would resume. Right. Right. Cuz I
17:46thought they were perpetuating a fraud
17:47on the European side. Right. I didn't
17:49expect that initially to think that no,
17:52they were coordinating it or whatever
17:54they were doing was linked up. So when
17:56the board found out after the general
17:58council found out cuz she didn't know
18:00apparently that I was doing this thing
18:02even though I was always told that she
18:03knew. Yeah. So one day when the
18:05whistleblower was fearing for a life
18:07wanted to go to MAS and the police and
18:08stuff I had no choice but to call her
18:10and say look we need to manage this cuz
18:13if we don't and it goes outside then it
18:14gets way worse. Right. So she didn't
18:18know and then she said, "Send me what
18:19you have." Which was the Raja And
18:21report. It was a preliminary report. It
18:23had like at least 10 potential offenses
18:25in there. So I sent it to her. She ran
18:27to the board. The board found out. They
18:28then spent the next four months with the
18:30local director here trying to coordinate
18:32and make my life really, really
18:34difficult, including trying to kill me
18:35at the end of it. So okay, so this is
18:37the wheels fall off the story cuz you
18:38know to the first half of that feels
18:40totally reasonable, right? So you were
18:42reporting to a lawyer. The lawyer
18:44reports to general counsel of the whole
18:45company. General counsel obviously
18:47reports to the CEO on the board. Okay,
18:49that makes sense. And then you telling
18:51me general counsel didn't understand
18:52what was going on. Also kind of makes
18:55sense. Then you checking the inbox
18:57because your boss I guess your boss
18:59didn't know either. They knew. Correct.
19:01Boss knew. Yes. So he was the one that
19:03gave me the access to it. So the deputy
19:05general counsel gave me access to the
19:07inboxes. So he was in a know but he gave
19:09let you investigate. Yeah. cuz they're
19:11sitting in Germany. But I'm on the
19:13ground here. But then he knew that this
19:15fraud was happening. I have no idea.
19:16Yeah, but probably not, right? Because
19:18otherwise, why would he give you I'm
19:19just saying like what he did say was
19:21that Wire Kart has two camps. One is the
19:24pro eo camp which is very powerful. So
19:26he's been assured a permanent future in
19:29the company regardless of what happens,
19:31right? And then there's a small bunch of
19:32them that want to do the right thing and
19:34have a more legal and compliant culture.
19:36So that's why he said this would be our
19:38chance to get an independent third party
19:41like the law firm to look at it because
19:43then the company will be forced to act
19:45because then it's not a personal thing
19:46like okay path doesn't like this eo guy
19:48or whatever right it becomes an
19:50objective assessment so that's why that
19:53whole thing happened but then when the
19:55GC found out she's like the 13th hire in
19:57the company right so she knew yeah so
20:00obviously from day one she's been part
20:01of the company from an early stage so
20:04she was never in the know as what was
20:05going on here. Yeah. So that's why when
20:07she finally found out, she asked me to
20:09send her everything and then she ran to
20:11the board and said, "Do you know what's
20:12going on?" Yeah. And that's where all
20:14things went downhill from there. Okay.
20:16So let's unpack that. So I think so this
20:19is the layers, right? So it's like you,
20:21your boss, general counsel, board, CEO
20:23and board, right? And I think it sounds
20:25like you and your boss were like aligned
20:27to be like let's do the right thing. And
20:28so you got approval and then you set up
20:30Rajant. You your own budget. Yep. Y and
20:32it came and that process took what like
20:34for the Raja Tan report took about 6
20:36weeks 6 weeks or 2 months let's say and
20:38that eventually it was and then your
20:42internal whistleblower was getting more
20:44and more scared and the ille what was
20:46the illegal transactions be like what
20:47wiring money to a different entity
20:49they're not approved to what does
20:50illegal transaction mean yeah I mean
20:52they were faking documents and contracts
20:54and literally forging stuff so she knew
20:56that it was forged documents that's why
20:58she saw it as a legal transaction it was
21:01scary because what was happening is they
21:02would have a unknown third party that
21:05pretends to be a client that invoices
21:07them. So the money moves from one entity
21:09to that third party. That third party
21:11then moves the money to another wire
21:13card entity. Yeah, that wire entity
21:15moves it to another party which
21:16shouldn't be a customer of wire and
21:18these are millions being moved around
21:20and then at some point you lose trail of
21:22what happens from that third party
21:24company right and that's clearly a I
21:27mean that's that's just clearly
21:29roundtpping and potential moneyaundering
21:32for sure right yeah and as a payments
21:35company that's not what you should be
21:36doing so some of these invoices were
21:38very obvious like you had a matchmaking
21:42company prov providing payment services
21:44to wire card which doesn't make any
21:47sense cuz it's the other way around
21:48right and then you also had like in
21:50Malaysia a market intelligence study
21:52being commissioned out of Malaysia right
21:55but invoice for €4 million so it's
21:57probably like the best market study in
21:59the world but again like that may be the
22:01case but you can't invoice out of you
22:03can't invoice out of Malaysia in euros
22:05that's just like not possible right so
22:08all this like really weird stuff and Ido
22:09was pretending to be a director he was
22:11signing off on a few things Yeah, he was
22:13also doing user acceptance testing in
22:16these contracts which he has no
22:18experience in doing. Yeah. So yeah, just
22:20very clearly I mean one of the companies
22:22was called Flexi Flex which is a very
22:24sexy name if you go to the gym or
22:26something but they were invoicing Wire
22:29Card for 3D secure tokenization services
22:31for example and that's what Wire Card
22:33actually provides and if anyone goes to
22:35Flexiflex website it's it still exists.
22:38It's a Malaysian company doing well. I
22:40guess they do piping hose hydraulic
22:43stuff. Oh. So that's why it was so like
22:46how can audit even if it's internal
22:48audit or external audit miss this? It's
22:51just a Google search. Right. Right. The
22:52name itself doesn't make sense. So that
22:55it was that level of basic and obvious
22:57which in any normal company you would
22:59suspend these individuals because they
23:01from the finance team and you would just
23:04get rid of them. But in fact the
23:05opposite happened where they were for
23:07Edido was actually promoted globally for
23:09his hard work and I was the one who was
23:12then it was my life that was made hell
23:14for the next few months. Yeah. So let's
23:16talk about that. So once you go to GC
23:18the board and so I think to me that
23:20again logically makes sense which is the
23:23board is always the last to know and
23:24they always so obviously they're going
23:26to send back a question which is is this
23:28correct? Is this accurate? Blah blah. So
23:30when did you start realizing that this
23:32is not normal? Because it is normal to
23:34get query from the general it's normal
23:36for the general counsel to report to the
23:38board. It's normal for the board to
23:39query you and say is are you correct?
23:42You should get it wrong. So I mean
23:43that's like you're opening up a
23:44storm. You already know the box is going
23:47to be open. The shit's going to fly. So
23:48you know that's all going to happen. But
23:50when did you realize it was like oh wait
23:51this is not an internal board
23:53investigator. Like this is going off the
23:54rails because they wanted to shut down
23:56the investigation. Yeah. Then they told
23:59me to to step aside and the COO Yan
24:02Marcel he wanted to take over the
24:04investigation but he was named as a
24:05suspect in a lot of the documents or
24:07things we came across right so that's
24:09one of the most difficult things how do
24:10you tell a the second most powerful
24:12person in the company that you cannot
24:14take over an investigation because you
24:15yourself are a person of interest like
24:17there's just no diplomatic way to craft
24:19that email right but then what was what
24:22then went downhill is when the Munich
24:24site with the GC and the local Singapore
24:27director that they started making my
24:29life difficult. So they started he
24:32started shouting at me every time in the
24:33office and intimidating me saying I
24:35don't don't think I don't know what you
24:37have been doing the last few months. If
24:39you know what's good for you you'll play
24:41ball and all these things. So, I didn't
24:43understand what his problem was because
24:45I kept telling him, "I'm actually
24:46looking after you, right? Cuz you're a
24:49director. If anything goes wrong, like
24:50you'll be in trouble, right? So, why is
24:53he like not taking that mindset?" And
24:56then he would say like his wife is a
24:58lawyer. He's not scared of anything and
24:59so on. So then he started coordinating
25:01all kinds of crazy stuff against me in
25:03the office attacking my work doing a HR
25:06case against me which really upset me
25:08because as a guy once that happens it's
25:10like okay he literally went below the
25:13belt right that failed but it took 3
25:15months to investigate and what was this
25:17HR case how does this so what they did
25:19is they hired this lawyer and they put
25:21her under me. Oh yeah and then that same
25:23lawyer was not reporting to me but
25:25reporting to him. Yeah. So, she was very
25:27insubordinate, had a fake CV and things
25:29that didn't add up. And she was always
25:31asking me, "How what is happening in
25:33this investigation, which she's not
25:34meant to be part of." Yeah. And she'll
25:36always be sitting in this guy's office.
25:38Yeah. So, at some point, I decided I
25:39want to fire her. Yeah. And that's where
25:42she ran to him and he said, "You're not
25:43allowed to fire her." I was like, "Why
25:45not?" Yeah. So, he said, "Oh, because
25:48she says that you are you have harassed
25:50her, which is why you want to fire her."
25:52So, it's that kind of really weird
25:53nonsense. And then they put her in team.
25:56So she directly ended up reporting to
25:57Idos. She was like, "Guys, you couldn't
25:59be more obvious in your nonsense,
26:01right?" Yeah. So then they took 3 months
26:03to investigate this whole issue, add
26:05further stress on me. That upset the
26:07whole office and when that failed, so
26:10everything didn't work out in that
26:11aspect. That's when they decided, okay.
26:14So Ido came back and he wanted to have
26:16lunch. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the first
26:18things I ever said to me was that he's
26:19married to a drug dealing family in
26:21Jakarta. That was his first introduction
26:22to me when I joined Wire Kart. Yeah. And
26:24met him. This time he wanted to send me
26:26back to Jakarta on a business trip,
26:29which made no sense based on how he
26:31explained it. And he said, "No, you
26:32still have to go whether in 2 days, 2
26:34weeks or 2 months, you must go, but you
26:36have no reason to worry because you know
26:37who my father-in-law is, right?" So, I
26:39saw that as a direct kind of threat. And
26:42you wouldn't want to just rock up in in
26:43Jakarta, right? When you are
26:46investigating or part of you are in the
26:48middle of this whole mess, right? cuz
26:50anyone can just drive in the traffic jam
26:53on a scooter and just shoot you and go
26:55off and no one cares. Right. Right. And
26:57on top of that, to make things worse,
26:58during that week, I had two anonymous
27:00phone calls from Germany saying, "Hello,
27:02is this Pep Gil? We understand you're
27:03being told to go to Jakarta. Don't go.
27:05You won't come back." Boom. And they put
27:06the phone down. So, obviously, I didn't
27:08want to go. That's where the company was
27:10very happy, I guess, because now they
27:12can force me to resign finally on the
27:14basis of not going for a business trip
27:17here. And I did. So, that's what
27:19happened. So I resigned. I said, "Okay,
27:21wire cutart, you enjoy your fraudulent
27:22ways. I go look for another job." Yeah.
27:25Yeah. But because they didn't stop their
27:27nonsense even after that, that is what
27:29led to eventually the whistleblowing.
27:31Okay. So this is actually really
27:32interesting. Okay. So first of all, I
27:35mean the fact that you're being asked to
27:37go to Indonesia obviously well on the
27:39face of it seems normal. Like nothing
27:41wrong going to Indonesia to get some
27:42MIGO ring. Yeah. And get a massage and
27:45then after that go take some selfies,
27:47you know. Nothing wrong with that and
27:49obviously it's a business trip
27:50obviously. Yeah. But I guess the part
27:53that is interesting is that you got
27:54these calls to say don't go because you
27:55might get killed now. Yes. I guess the
27:57question was was the guy calling person
27:59calling you because they didn't want you
28:00to go for sure. Or it was a nice person
28:02calling you to tell you because they
28:04really were warning you. Yes. From a
28:06good faith perspective. Yeah. For sure.
28:08Okay. I mean and the whole business
28:10reason they wanted me to go didn't make
28:12any sense. Cuz they said it's for a
28:14rebranding exercise. I'm like, I've
28:16given you two law firms with their
28:17codes. Yeah. Yeah. I don't need to
28:19physically be there. Yeah. Exactly. So
28:21that's why it became very dodgy, right?
28:23The whole like two months, two weeks,
28:24two days thing. Yeah. Which person is
28:26like you, you can go on a business trip,
28:28but yes, between two weeks to two
28:29months. Yeah. Two days like let's go.
28:32It's normally like, hey, there's a
28:33conference we got to go to or there's a
28:34meeting we got to do. But so you're
28:36saying that the person called you, it
28:37wasn't because they were trying to stop
28:38you from going so that you don't get so
28:40that you'll get fired. This person was
28:42actually had good intentions for you and
28:44was trying to warn you nicely. Did you
28:46ever find out who that person was? No,
28:47it was it wasn't just one person. There
28:48were two phone calls during that week
28:50from two different people. Two friendly
28:52people called you in Germany. I don't
28:54know who they are. You don't who you
28:55still don't know who they are. No,
28:56because the phone call is like a few
28:57seconds long. On the landline, we still
28:59use those things those days. So, and you
29:01still don't know who they are. No. So, I
29:04guess they will help they saving your
29:06life, but they they I guess they don't
29:08want to tell you. I mean, maybe in 10
29:09years or 20 years when things blow over,
29:11they might tell you. Yeah, maybe. Yeah.
29:12But again, I wouldn't know if it's true.
29:14But it's good it's good that they told
29:14you, right? Because for if they didn't
29:16call you, you might have been like, "No,
29:17I still wouldn't go." You still wouldn't
29:18go. That's when I got my mom involved,
29:19right? That's where you come. Okay. So,
29:20let's talk about your mom. What's
29:21helpful now is that your mom is a
29:23lawyer. So, she's not a lawyer. She had
29:24a law degree. She went into banking and
29:26then eventually she kind of slowed down
29:28and gotcha. Yeah. So, she knew both the
29:30corporate. Okay. So, fin. So, so how
29:32does that conversation go? Like I don't
29:34know. You go over to her house for a
29:35family dinner or something. No, I live
29:36with her. Oh, you live I still live with
29:37her. So you were talking to her all the
29:38time about this issue as it was
29:40developing. No, I wasn't. So that's a
29:41weird thing like you are so isolated in
29:43this situation that you have to navigate
29:46everything on your own. You can't tell
29:48your colleagues why this crazy director
29:50guy in Singapore is doing these things.
29:52Why are you being investigated for
29:54absolute nonsense? Or why are you now
29:56singled out? Yeah. Yeah. Right. You
29:58can't talk to them because it's
29:59sensitive. It's confidential. Right. You
30:02can't talk to your friends outside for
30:03the same reason. Right. So then the
30:05reason why I had to tell my mom is
30:07because if these guys were now going
30:08down the pathway of literally trying to
30:10kill you, it was only fair that she
30:12finds out what's going on in case
30:15something happens, right? Whether in
30:17overseas or in Singapore. So that's
30:19where she got involved and I to tell
30:20her. Yeah. Yeah. So you told her like,
30:22"Hey, I was invited on a business trip,
30:25but I No, I told her what's going on. I
30:26said, I'm investigating this thing. This
30:28fraud going on from what I see now. They
30:30have been doing this to me the last few
30:32months, and they wanted me to go to
30:33Jakara. So she actually said you're not
30:35going and she would take my passport and
30:37so I told her like that's actually
30:39criminal offense but okay. So so that's
30:41what happened right because I mean my
30:43mom's more street smart than I am to
30:46some extent. So she always says like men
30:48are very innocent or naive so she could
30:50like sense these insidious things more
30:53than me because I think because I was
30:54stuck in the whole setting I kept
30:57thinking that no it can't be at some
30:59point the company will do the right
31:00thing and I'll be vindicated. Yeah. So a
31:03lot of people always ask like why did
31:05you not leave the company during these
31:06four months and it's because of that
31:08personally like I was doing my job doing
31:11it well I think and I was still trying
31:13to make sure with the external law firm
31:15that things were being coordinated that
31:18the case would still go and I was still
31:20having an obligation at least a moral
31:22one to the whistleblower who I kept the
31:24identity of whom I kept secret until
31:27today. Yeah. Yeah. I called her Bobby so
31:29no one even knows if it's male or
31:30female. So yeah, I just thought at some
31:33point that and the law firm was also
31:34telling me like just hang in there
31:36because the more we find out the worse
31:38it looks for the company. Yeah. So it
31:41was really a race against time. Who
31:42would cave first or who would be forced
31:44to, right? And it's not I mean frankly
31:46it's not easy to just leave a job and
31:48walk into another job, right? Especially
31:50the more senior you are. Yeah. Yeah.
31:51Yeah. So yeah, that was the reasons why
31:53I stayed in the company for so long.
31:55Yeah. And I think what's interesting is
31:57that then you felt like okay at some
31:59point you they had grounds to dismiss
32:02you. So you could have been either been
32:04fired but you chose to resign. Yeah.
32:06Given either option. Oh. So they
32:08literally came up to you and they gave
32:09you Yeah. The same director guy was very
32:11smug about it. Yeah. Smug about it. And
32:13he was like you chose not to go to
32:14business to work. Yeah. Basically. Um
32:17and then he went on this whole spiel
32:19about how he told me to play ball and I
32:21didn't. I thought I could run to the
32:23general counsel who protect me. Yeah,
32:26she listened to everything he says and
32:27that he's just one of those very
32:29annoying people to work for
32:31because Singapore
32:35and then he became like the local boss
32:37apex CEO type person and he'll be the
32:39kind of person that's always giving
32:41these wise anecdotes like with great
32:44power comes great responsibility and all
32:46these things right so he's really like
32:48the kind of uncle that you can't really
32:50handle for very long but he would have
32:52his like sephopens around that will
32:55follow him around everywhere. Yeah. So
32:57that's why he was very he was very proud
32:59of himself that this thing concluded
33:01this way. And in fact, ironically, I
33:03think he actually caused a downfall of
33:05wire card, right? Because he must have
33:07told HQ that don't worry about this path
33:09guy. I know how to deal with him. He's
33:11actually yeah, I will settle this. But
33:13because he didn't, I think that's what
33:15eventually led to the downfall of the
33:17company. So even after I left the
33:18company, they were sending people to
33:20follow us and all these things. At
33:22first, I thought they were really
33:23lowbudget on that because you're not
33:25supposed to know when someone's
33:26following you, right? But then I then
33:29realized, no, they actually want you to
33:30know as a form of intimidation. Right.
33:33So, they were doing all these things.
33:34They were setting up fake interviews
33:35with friendly firms knowing I need a
33:37job, but then the interview process was
33:39all about why I left wire. Did something
33:41bad happen? I can tell them. Yeah. And
33:43then I knew why they're doing that. So,
33:44if I said something wrong, I breach NDA
33:46or whatever. Right. And so that's why at
33:49some point my mom got pissed and she
33:51said, "Okay, I had enough. I'm going to
33:53teach this company a lesson." Yeah.
33:55Yeah. Yeah. So, how did your mom teach
33:57them a lesson? Well, from the sofa in
33:59the house, he made friends with powerful
34:01people and journalists. Yeah. Like Cla
34:03Brown was the first one she got in
34:05contact with and CLA exposed one MD
34:07through Sarawak report, right? So CLA
34:09actually said, she knows the FT's been
34:11working on WireArt for the last few
34:13years, right? But getting nowhere. So
34:15CLA put us in touch with the FT. Yeah.
34:17So that's how the FT got involved. Yeah.
34:19So let's talk about that. I mean
34:21obviously I always say never piss off a
34:23mom, right? It's really unwise. Really
34:26otherwise. Yeah. You can go after anyone
34:27but you off the mom the mom will grow
34:30full 100%. So but let's talk about that,
34:32right? So like obviously she's your
34:34confidant and she knows all the stuff
34:37and but you were being a professional,
34:38right? You were like recruiting for a
34:39job. You resigned the report and you
34:41were like you said you want to let Wire
34:43cut settle because the report is there.
34:45Yeah. But you never you weren't thinking
34:46about going and talking to a journalist.
34:49I mean the roots explored or thought
34:51processes were do you go to the police?
34:53Do you go to MAS or whoever? Yeah. But
34:55then the issue I think is if you want
34:57the company if you want fast action then
35:01the best way we strategize was if a
35:04reputable paper starts reporting about
35:06wrongdoings in Singapore in this company
35:07here but Singapore is hyper sensitive on
35:09all these things they will be forced to
35:10act fast because otherwise if you go to
35:13the police or you just lodge a issue you
35:16could it would just potentially be filed
35:18away and not looked at for many years
35:21there's no way to force the action right
35:23but the FT strategy was the way and it
35:25did. So within three the third FD
35:27article when it finally came out
35:29immediately Singapore raided Ward's
35:31office. It was the only country that
35:32acted on what happened. Yeah. So let's
35:35talk a little bit about that. Like I
35:37don't know did you feel when your mom
35:40went to talk to the journalist first and
35:42then connected you both? When she did
35:44that were you like was that agreed upon
35:46as a plan or she did it without you? No.
35:49She told me basically we are meeting the
35:50FD this weekend. I was like I was like
35:52what are you doing? I don't speak to
35:54journalists right I don't trust them.
35:55Yeah. As a lawyer as a lawyer don't hang
35:57off journalists. It's like the one rule
35:58is like lawyers and journalists will not
36:00drink in the same group together. Right.
36:03Yeah. And I was more concerned but like
36:05what I don't want to be I'm literally
36:06trying to look for another job. But
36:08she's like no we need to speak to the
36:10FD. They are familiar with this case and
36:11we also can understand just
36:13conversationally how they their sources.
36:15Right. Right. So the because we wer
36:18still doing a lot of nonsense in the
36:19background towards me. Yeah. Yeah. So we
36:21needed to create a distraction for them
36:24that's big enough for them to stop
36:26focusing on me and go fix these other
36:28fires. So that was the reason behind it,
36:30right? And yeah, I mean as a lawyer
36:32clearly, right, you don't that's legal
36:34privilege issues, all these things which
36:35always play on your mind. But I was very
36:37confident on those grounds because
36:39privilege wouldn't cover like criminal
36:40offenses, criminal acts. And legal
36:43privilege, for example, is meant to have
36:45the lawyer protect the client basically
36:47at the end of the day, right? But if the
36:49client's trying to kill that same
36:50lawyer, right? Then I guess it doesn't
36:51make any sense, right? Because then all
36:53the rules of engagement are out the
36:55window. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what
36:57happened. And we met the FT introductory
36:59meeting in Changi airport, right? I
37:01still remember I think it was Coffee
37:03Bean or somewhere. And then the FT's
37:06correspondent, the one in Singapore,
37:08Stefania, he then reported back to Dan
37:10Mcrum saying, "These guys are actually
37:12legit." Yeah. And that's when Dan came
37:14down the next week for three days in
37:16Singapore and we went through about 70%
37:19of what I had because I still wanted
37:20wanted to keep the 30%. Yeah. Because I
37:23still didn't trust these guys, right?
37:24Cuz I've seen like in one MDB and stuff
37:26like what happened to whistleblowers.
37:28The guy ended up in jail because he was
37:31exposed in the process. Right. Yeah. And
37:33so very important is you've got to keep
37:35whistleblowers anonymous. Yeah. That's
37:38when things really get ugly when they
37:40get exposed, right? Cuz you unless
37:42you're very very powerful as a
37:44whistleblower, you don't have the
37:46resources to take on a corporate cuz
37:48they can completely damage you
37:51financially. No. Yeah. Of course. And
37:53reputationally. Yeah. If they think you
37:55have stuff against them. And if a
37:57company's in the business of forging
37:58documents and stuff, there's nothing
37:59preventing them from doing the same
38:01thing against you. No. Yeah. Right. And
38:03saying like, "No, he was actually part
38:04of this. Look at our stuff that we have
38:06against him." Right? Especially with AI
38:08deep fakes and stuff, it gets even more
38:10complicated. Do you then have the
38:12ability to prove otherwise, right? So
38:14that's why I had to leave the company
38:16with the raw inbox data of these guys,
38:19right? Cuz that was the proof. So if
38:21that's forensically analyzed, it will
38:23show it's never been modified. It is
38:26real, right? And I think that's what the
38:29company never saw coming, right? was for
38:32the first time someone from the inside
38:34with real data could now expose them
38:37right so because people always ask why
38:39would wire cut hire you if you had such
38:40a good CV and they were doing bad things
38:43it's because of that like the access of
38:45info was controlled so much at the top
38:47level they would never in their wildest
38:49dreams imagine like someone at the lower
38:51side the subsidiary side or wherever
38:53would suddenly make that connection from
38:56a objective data standpoint and that's
38:58what happened with the inboxes right
39:00just that you had a copy the inboxes and
39:02that was the most important part because
39:04that was extracted part of the Raja and
39:05Khan process. Yes, that was the smoking
39:08gun I guess in that yes sense to say
39:10that this is the start of the process
39:12the pool of the thread right as it goes
39:14up and up. Yeah. Now I think what's
39:16interesting is that you said that there
39:18was anonymous but obviously I mean I'm
39:21sure that when the so okay so let's talk
39:23about this process obviously the
39:24sourcing the journalist is writing with
39:26you and so so forth. So obviously the
39:28article comes out and it was I remember
39:30that reading that first article which
39:31was quite explosive. Yeah. EOS face on
39:33it. Yeah. But I mean wouldn't they know
39:35it's you even though you're protected as
39:37anonymous with a blow. Wouldn't they
39:39know it's like must be this dude. Yeah.
39:41Yeah. But they definitely suspected it
39:44was me or maybe another dude. Yeah. Who
39:47was part of this whole thing. Yeah. But
39:49then there's a difference between
39:50suspecting and being able to prove it.
39:52Gotcha. Yeah. So, it's at least it's
39:54like if have to kill had to kill both of
39:56you instead of killing one of you. Yeah.
39:58They actually paid a third party
40:00intelligence company. Yeah. To find out
40:02who the whistleblower was. Really? Yeah.
40:04They paid them two to €300,000 and that
40:07company gave them the wrong person. So,
40:08out of the 50/50, they chose the wrong
40:11one for such an expensive fee. Right. I
40:14feel good for you, but I feel bad for
40:15the other person because the other
40:16person was probably I mean, they could
40:18have just transferred me the money.
40:20Would have said, "Yeah, it's me. Thanks
40:21for the cash." Sorry, that's all. But
40:23it's too late. That's too late. That's
40:24so bad. That's so funny. And wait. And
40:26then and then of course they were like
40:28following you. Like was it very obvious
40:29when they were following you? Very
40:30obvious. Like what? Like it's like a
40:32what? Some dude is No, it's like those
40:33like tie looking workers, construction
40:35worker type to the tattoos and stuff and
40:37they're follow they're walking behind
40:38you the entire time. Yeah. Taking pics
40:40and then they'll walk. We live on a
40:41corridor unit. So they'll walk up and
40:43down the corridor. They'll go on the
40:44block opposite and then from there just
40:46look. So it's like really obvious. Oh,
40:48it's the same dude as well. I mean, not
40:51every day. Not every day. But but why is
40:53someone doing that? Yeah. Exactly. And
40:54of course, you can't like go complain to
40:56the police because nothing has
40:57technically happened. Yeah. It's like,
40:59okay, people walking around. What do you
41:00want us to do? Yeah. Exactly. It just
41:02happens to be this stranger in your
41:03corridor who it's not a neighbor. Yeah.
41:05It's not a crime. Yeah. It's not a
41:06crime. Even follow someone is not a
41:08crime. Yeah. You just I mean, unless
41:11you're harassing them, but it's it was
41:13one of those cases. And my fear was
41:16because my mom is very fearless. So that
41:18puts fear in you cuz you're scared that
41:20she will confront them and then
41:21something went. Yeah. What could these
41:22people do? Because she's the kind of
41:24person that every late in the evening
41:26she would hang the clothes in the
41:27corridor to cry and stuff, right? So I'm
41:30out working at finding a job. I don't
41:33want to have this fear factor or people
41:34could throw acid or something. Who
41:36knows? It may not kill you, but you
41:37don't want a situation. Yeah. Um so that
41:41was what really triggered. So if anyone
41:43asks like was I ever scared in the
41:44process, it's because of that. It wasn't
41:46anything else. Yeah. Yeah, because they
41:48could push her down the stairs.
41:49Something that looked like an accident
41:51as well just to Yeah. Yeah. So, so many
41:53horrible things could happen. So, no, I
41:54think it's interesting because then
41:56obviously the whistleblow happens and
41:58then eventually the whole the wire cut
42:00house of cards has to fall apart and
42:02obviously I think also I think the
42:04expose is actually also larger than what
42:06you saw, right? Because you saw from the
42:08bottom ap. Yes. And then I think FT did
42:11a really good job explaining the whole
42:13thing if that makes sense. Did you feel
42:15like were you surprised or shocked by
42:17the scale of it or no? Because at that
42:19point you were like it has been really
42:20bad or I mean it was a very active
42:23process of engagement. So what I did
42:25triggered other information to come in
42:28after those articles were out the first
42:30few articles. Um but what I didn't
42:32expect was how the German regulators and
42:35stuff would react on the very first day.
42:36So they said it's not a wire cut problem
42:38a shortselling problem and it's a Asian
42:40problem. And that's things that
42:42regulators normally do not say. Yeah,
42:44you would just say the standard stuff
42:46which is we understand allegations have
42:47been made looking into it till there no
42:49comment. But to come out on day one and
42:51say that it's the company's not in any
42:54wrongdoing is highly unusual. And that's
42:57when I realized that I'm going against
43:00not just the regulators. I mean the not
43:02just Wire Guard but regulators, external
43:05auditors and whoever else that are
43:06hellbent on protecting this company for
43:08whatever reason. Right. So that's when I
43:10had to go bit vigilante. Yeah. And go on
43:12Twitter and create this anonymous
43:14account. Yeah. I would publish things
43:16there which journalists cannot publish.
43:18Right. for ethical or other reasons. And
43:21then my mom suffered a stroke and out of
43:23the stress that was happening and then
43:25as part of the stroke scans they found
43:27she had stage two lung cancer to cut off
43:28half a lung and stuff. So it became very
43:31personal right that we needed to see
43:33this through. Yeah. I mean basically
43:35don't half ass this thing now. Yeah.
43:36Yeah. Cuz if you be one you better do it
43:38properly, right? And that's where and
43:40because the Germans started going c they
43:42started going after the FT criminally
43:45and nullifying everything. They even put
43:47a short selling ban on why it got
43:48stopped. I remember which is insane. So
43:50that's when I realized we need to change
43:52the perception from within Germany and I
43:53got Suda Zaiton the powerful Munich
43:55paper which was behind Paradise Panama
43:58leaks. Yeah. They came down they were
44:00actually in Mount E at the hospital bed
44:01and I gave them even more information.
44:03Right. So when they finally published
44:05the first time Germany kind of shook was
44:07because of their article. So now we have
44:10not only the jealous UK paper, right?
44:13But um our own papers are now saying
44:16something is really wrong with this
44:18PayPal of Europe that we have here,
44:20right? So that's when things started and
44:22then the Twitter profile got a lot of
44:24hedge funds attention. Eventually that
44:27forced a KPMG special audit, right? And
44:29it's a whole story like Dan has written
44:31it very well in Moneyman very
44:34extensively. It's it's crazy stuff and
44:36finally the company crashed after one
44:38and a half years. Yeah. So I think
44:40what's interesting is that it took one
44:41and a half years even for it to crash,
44:43right? Because it was had so much
44:44protection by weirdly the German state
44:47and most people think of the German
44:48state as efficient, fair, neutral. I
44:51mean I'm just saying nonpartisan in
44:53general. So why do you think there was
44:55like regulatory capture or what happened
44:57there? Yeah, I mean I don't know. I
45:00think Germany has is definitely a
45:02stakeholder in many aspects of wire
45:04card, right? There was a cl we also know
45:06that the regulator staff were trading
45:08wire stock till the last day. Oh, which
45:11isn't nice. Yeah. Uh yeah. But what was
45:14unforgivable in my view was the fact
45:16that before the articles came out like
45:19one week or within the week before that
45:20maybe 3 days I had created a dossier of
45:23all the documents and indexed it nicely
45:26to make it idiot proof. I sent it to the
45:28external auditors to MAS C everybody
45:32including the German side. Right. Yeah.
45:34So why are they behaving like they don't
45:35know? They don't have the evidence. They
45:37have it. So why is that insistent desire
45:40not to want to look at it? Yeah. And
45:42they kept casting it conveniently as a
45:44Asian problem. Right. Right. But okay,
45:46maybe an Asian problem, but this is your
45:47listed company with HQ. And if you
45:50actually ask the question, you'll
45:51realize nothing in Asia can happen
45:52without HQ signing off. Right. So it's
45:55just those very basic things that are
45:57frustrating, right? And so I think
45:59what's interesting is that also this
46:01whole thing fell apart and obviously
46:03justice was served in some ways but also
46:06I think you as a whistleblower have also
46:08become public right you know cuz you
46:10eventually right so what was that
46:11process for you to be like I'm
46:12comfortable becoming public or known as
46:15the whistleblower yeah of course there's
46:18a strong desire in these things to want
46:20to come out dumping your chest and like
46:22it was me I front stabbed you
46:23backstabbed you it was me all along but
46:26yeah yeah there's always that desire
46:28right from a justice like okay I have
46:31finally succeeded and you guys now in
46:34the bad ones but you still have to be
46:36wise because if the company's crashed
46:39it's going through an insolveny process
46:40and last thing you want to do is get
46:42sued by them still right it's like last
46:44burst of fire before going down right
46:46yeah just kill this guy at the same time
46:49so I had to wait a year and then the sky
46:51documentary which is the only movie I'm
46:53in that was focused on me and my mom and
46:55what really happened behind the scenes
46:57Right. So that was being filmed and the
46:59day was being released a year after the
47:01company crashed. That's when I told the
47:02FD and as that you can publish who it is
47:05on the same day cuz people will find out
47:06anyway. Right. And that's where
47:07everything that's what put me in the
47:09public space as the whistleblower. But I
47:12always like to remind everyone like wire
47:14cards are very rare case of successful
47:16whistleblowing. Yeah. Because the
47:17company actually suffered the
47:19consequences. Right. But in most cases
47:21whistleblowers get exposed in the
47:22process and absolutely damaged. Right.
47:25So yeah, it's something to always keep
47:27in mind. Yeah. And what's interesting is
47:29that now you're building a company that
47:31is focusing on
47:33whistleblowing as one of the modules
47:35you're doing helping with governance
47:37etc. So let's talk so I want to kind of
47:39like unpack that a little bit. Right. So
47:41you were looking for a job and then you
47:43were a lawyer general counsel for a few
47:45two more companies right maybe you could
47:47share a little bit more and then you
47:48eventually became a founder. Yes. So can
47:49you just unpack that journey? Yeah.
47:51Yeah. So the whole one and a half years
47:53of exposing wire card, I like to say it
47:55was like a side gig. It's great for
47:57stress relief, but I was working. So I
47:59joined Wise as their first AP council,
48:01for example. But then in the evening
48:03when I'm frustrated, I'll go and do my
48:04Twitter stuff and start being this
48:06whistleblower guy, right? Oh, wow. It's
48:08like like, yeah, I had a bad day. Let me
48:10take it out of wire and all its bots
48:13that are attacking me. So yeah, Twitter
48:15does have its good use in that sense. So
48:18So you're doing your day job and nobody
48:20at Wise knew it was you. Nobody what a
48:22nice guy p have you what are you doing
48:24after work today you want to go for
48:26drinks and you're like no no no use
48:28Twitter I would go for the drinks but if
48:30the drinks had a negative effect then
48:31why kind of suffered right yeah exactly
48:33so there you are obviously going through
48:35that and you had that job at wise and
48:37then eventually then I moved to Bangkok
48:39and I was the general counsel of a
48:40crypto exchange so the movie is actually
48:42filmed in real time the last three days
48:45of me being in Singapore so they
48:47actually filmed me going from the home
48:49to Changi airport for my real flight to
48:51Bangkok. So, Bangkok, that was during
48:52CO, so the whole 14-day quarantine and
48:54stuff. And yeah, it was only midway
48:57through my journey in Bangkok that this
48:59article came out and revealed who I was.
49:02And yeah, that's what happened. Since
49:04then, I was doing a lot of global public
49:06keynote speaking, like global keynote
49:08speaking events. So all these different
49:10companies, regulators, MNC's, big fours
49:12would get me to speak other than you
49:13know obviously. Yeah, that's the only
49:16big four I haven't spoken about uh
49:18spoken for or at which is unfortunate.
49:21Yeah. So my bigger question in life was
49:24always what was the bigger reason behind
49:26exposing wire card like why me not some
49:28other random guy and because I was
49:31discussing the EU whistleblowing law
49:33which wire cut actually accelerated the
49:35implementation of it just hit me because
49:37I have seen how challenging it is for
49:40companies to deal with internal
49:41reporting cases whether it's
49:43whistleblowing in the financial crime
49:45sense or it's HR issues like bullying
49:47harassment me too and the likes or it's
49:50even things like data breach age should
49:52we tell our customers should we tell our
49:54regulators should we deal with the
49:55thread actor so all these different
49:57kinds of internal reporting I've seen
49:58the challenges and I've also used the
50:00so-called existing solution so I'm
50:02familiar with them all of them only
50:04focus on receiving reports but then what
50:07happens after that right so having put
50:09the wire the whistleblowing mindset
50:11experience in there okay if there was
50:13something that was truly end to end not
50:15just a receiving channel right then that
50:18audit trail is there right then maybe
50:20even the general council and wire khan
50:22say she didn't know right it's true that
50:24she knew and how did she deal with it
50:26right um so then I said yeah let's let
50:29me just do this let me put all my
50:30experience my life's journey into a
50:32product that will benefit people
50:33companies and lawmakers right and that's
50:35how the idea of confide platform was
50:37formed and I think the word confide is
50:39very powerful right because like when I
50:41mentioned isolation every time you're in
50:43a situation where you see something
50:44wrong you want to speak up you don't
50:46know who to confide in or you're
50:47confiding in the wrong person right or
50:49you're just limited from confiding by
50:51legal privilege, NDAs, whatever. So
50:54having that name, having that an that
50:56encrypted anonymous ability and most
50:59importantly giving companies a chance to
51:00deal with things before they explode,
51:02they don't wake up. We see that all the
51:04time like something bad happens in the
51:06press, right? Then the senior executives
51:07are like, "Okay, what happened? How come
51:09we didn't know? If we knew we'd have
51:11done something about it, right?" So
51:13putting fixing that specific problem,
51:16the end to end and everything was how
51:18confight started. So whistleblowing
51:20naturally with my storyline was the kind
51:22of like the beach head product, right?
51:23And that's how we started and now we
51:25have expanded into full operational
51:27compliance aspects. Yeah. And my last
51:30question here really would be like could
51:32you share a personal story about the
51:34time that you have felt the most brave?
51:36I mean that's yeah that's a difficult
51:39one having gone through a lot of things
51:41in life but I think I felt the most
51:44brave was when I was in the US. It was
51:46my first trip last year. I was keynote
51:49for diligence annual summit and it was
51:51in Houston and I was sitting after my
51:52talk at the basement I mean at the
51:54ground floor restaurant had a glass wall
51:58that looked out into the street on
52:00street level. Yeah. So he was walking up
52:03and down and I knew there's something
52:04dodgy about this guy. Yeah. So I
52:07actually understood for the first time
52:09why gun laws exist. Right. Because if
52:12this guy had actually come into the
52:13restaurant and opened fire, everyone's a
52:16sitting duck. Right. Yeah. right? You
52:18literally have no defense, right? But
52:20because of I for the first time actually
52:22felt afraid if that situation
52:24materialized because he was walking into
52:26the hotel for absolutely no good reason.
52:28And so it was that time which I then
52:30quickly went to security and I said you
52:33should look at this guy. He's acting
52:34suspiciously. So yeah, I would say that
52:37was like a brave moment but yet it was
52:39brave because I think I actually felt
52:41afraid for the first time properly in a
52:43life and limb setting and then I told I
52:45I acted on it by telling alerting the
52:49people about this threat. Yeah. But it
52:51was a eye opening experience. I think
52:53it's interesting because when people
52:55look at the whole thing you they will
52:57probably say like the brave thing is
52:58this whole wild card thing but you're
53:01saying that you didn't feel as fearful.
53:03We don't feel like that that set of
53:05decisions around whistleblowing on wire
53:07cut was it wasn't as brave and could you
53:09share a little bit more about that?
53:10Yeah, I mean it's brave of course it's
53:12it's brave/c crazy to some extent trying
53:16to take down a company like that or
53:18expose them rather but I think if you
53:20want to talk about wire cut related
53:22bravery I would say that the bravery in
53:24terms of the wire cut story for me as a
53:27person was eventually confronting the
53:30fact that what experience I had there
53:33led to had an impact on me down the line
53:36not immediately but subsequently so
53:39after when I was in Bangkok and the firm
53:41the crypto company I was working with
53:43that collapsed because of whatever
53:44happened in the crypto space with the
53:46FTX and everything right that's when I
53:48started getting like all these panic
53:49attacks and stuff so that's where for
53:51the first time in my life I was forced
53:52to confront this whole issue of mental
53:55well-being right which was a very
53:58challenging process so the in terms of
54:01bravery was being able to confront that
54:03as a man especially we are very driven
54:06by oh we cannot show weakness and
54:08there's no such thing go to the gym him
54:10and man up and stuff, right? But then
54:12when it hits you and you're forced to
54:14deal with it, I think that takes a lot
54:16of willpower and accepting and
54:18reflection which has to me is a brave
54:20process because not many people find it
54:24easy to deal with. Yeah. So then getting
54:26into things like breath work and talking
54:28about these things I think that to me
54:30was the link to the wire story in terms
54:33of bravely confronting the impact of
54:36that on you as a human being. Right.
54:38Yeah. And if I may just one last bit is
54:41obviously this is obviously very
54:43stressful and scary with manage tech. I
54:46think you and I have both met
54:48whistleblowers as well who have emerged
54:51right as a function of the work and
54:53visibility. If there was like a
54:55whistleblower who's like listening to
54:56you or somebody saying something is not
54:58going well. Yeah. And you were getting
55:00coffee with them outside. What advice or
55:04what how would you approach that
55:05conversation today? Yeah. I mean I would
55:08ask them genuinely what do you what is
55:10it that you want to achieve? Yeah.
55:12Sometimes you got to work backwards.
55:14Yeah. Right. To answer that question
55:16because what matters to you most like is
55:19raising this issue exposing this
55:21wrongdoing or having peace of mind like
55:24what gives you that peace of mind every
55:26day is how you should then focus your
55:28attentions towards because if you if the
55:31simplest solution is okay I can just
55:32leave the company and find another job.
55:34I'll be safe and I'll move on and I
55:36don't need to deal with this whole mess.
55:37Then that is the cause of action you
55:39should take. Right? I will never
55:41encourage a person to become like a
55:42full-blown whistleblower because that
55:44comes with a whole bunch of pain
55:46especially if you don't deal with it
55:47properly, right? And if you don't like
55:49go full 9 yards and see to the end. So
55:53you need to be alive to those risks. But
55:55fundamentally as a human you need to do
55:57what makes you at peace with yourself.
56:00And I think that's the issue right
56:01because a lot of people even though they
56:03have got a settlement with a company or
56:05these things they may have raised they
56:06got a settlement and they left I think
56:08there's always that residual sense of
56:11injustice that yeah even to get that
56:13settlement okay but then these same guys
56:15who were illreating me they now are even
56:18getting higher salaries and succeeding
56:20thriving more I find that something that
56:23I cannot live with I still want to find
56:25a way to expose them right so I think
56:27again like we are driven by that from an
56:29emotional standoint
56:30But to me, it's really what matters most
56:32to you, what will keep you safe and your
56:34family safe and be able to make you
56:36sleep well at night and move forward. I
56:38think that's the biggest advice cuz it's
56:40not like the movies, right? Like heroes
56:42don't always have long lives. No, they
56:45don't. So, yeah. Yeah. In the real
56:47world, uh, yeah, you can end up dead.
56:50Yeah. Quite quite often, right? It's a
56:52known thing. Yeah. On that note, thank
56:54you so much for sharing. I love to
56:55summarize the three big takeaways. First
56:57of all, thanks so much for sharing about
56:59I think your early career, but also why
57:01you excited to join Wire Card and a
57:03little bit more about how you felt like
57:06things were going sideways and how you
57:07felt like you were doing the right thing
57:08for Wire Card by doing an internal
57:10investigation into what you thought was
57:12malpractice at the local level. So that
57:15was really interesting. Secondly, thanks
57:17for sharing about I think the broader
57:20exploration where you realize you're
57:22coming under pressure that headquarters
57:24were squeezing you that you eventually
57:26had to resign and forced to resign and
57:29then had to go and talk to the press and
57:32kind of like work with the system and
57:34through the system and against the
57:35system to get the truth out there
57:38eventually leading to the collapse of
57:39the wire card unicorn. And then lastly,
57:42thanks so much for sharing about your
57:43own new company about how you think you
57:46can improve like governance practices
57:48and make better governance possible for
57:50boards, for VCs, for management, for
57:54whistleblowers, for employees. So, thank
57:56you so much for sharing. Sure. Thanks. I
57:59enjoyed myself. Thank you.
58:03Thank you for listening to Brave. If you
58:06enjoyed this episode, please share the
58:08podcast with your friends and
58:10colleagues.
58:11We would also appreciate you leaving a
58:14rating or review. Head over to
58:19www.bravea.com for member content,
58:21resources, and community. Stay well and
58:25stay brave.

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