Pause #138 - “Exonerated: The Sabrina Butler Story” — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:00Hi, I'm your host Dr. Phil Hoffman, and
2. 0:02coming up next on Pause, we'll be
3. 0:03talking about the criminal justice
4. 0:05system and reforms that may be needed.
5. 0:07That's coming up right now on Pause.
6. 0:30And welcome back to Pause. Joining us
7. 0:32this evening is Sabrina Butler. Sabrina
8. 0:34is the author of a book entitled
9. 0:37Exonerated. It's the Sabrina Butler
10. 0:39story, and it is an interesting story,
11. 0:42Sabrina. Welcome.
12. 0:44you.
13. 0:45So, let's talk a little bit about the
14. 0:47the process that's laid out here in
15. 0:50Exonerated.
16. 0:51Um is is the true story of what happened
17. 0:54to you
18. 0:55um starting as a very young woman,
19. 0:57right?
20. 0:57Yes. And it took me a while to write the
21. 0:59story because I had to think about uh
22. 1:03involving my family and everything, and
23. 1:05um
24. 1:06I I just I felt that it needed to be
25. 1:09told.
26. 1:10So, let's let's go back and let's start
27. 1:12at the beginning of the story for folks
28. 1:13who are not familiar with the book. Tell
29. 1:16us a little bit about what happened, and
30. 1:18how did you wind up being the only woman
31. 1:20ever exonerated from death row?
32. 1:23In April of '89, I was accused of
33. 1:27killing my son.
34. 1:28Um
35. 1:29I used to like to go to jogging and
36. 1:31things like that, and where I stayed,
37. 1:33the people really didn't know me over
38. 1:35there. And so, one night I put my son to
39. 1:37sleep, which was a mistake, but I was 17
40. 1:40and a half and on my own, and have been
41. 1:42on my own since I was 14.
42. 1:45And I decided to go jogging. I put him
43. 1:47to sleep and decided to go jogging. I
44. 1:49left him in the house by himself, and
45. 1:51that was a crucial mistake.
46. 1:53Um but when I I back, I noticed that he
47. 1:56wasn't breathing, so I panicked. I
48. 1:58didn't know, you know, what to do, so I
49. 2:00just grabbed him and ran outside and
50. 2:03started trying to get somebody to help
51. 2:05me.
52. 2:06And the lady, first lady came to the
53. 2:08door and she was like, you know, I don't
54. 2:09have time. My kids are in the bed, you
55. 2:11know, and she closed the door in my
56. 2:13face.
57. 2:14So, I had to run downstairs to, you
58. 2:16know, get someone and a lady came from
59. 2:18the inner apartment and she grabbed my
60. 2:20son and she ran in and she put him on
61. 2:22the floor and started CPR. And I ran
62. 2:24outside to try to get someone to help me
63. 2:27and I finally found somebody.
64. 2:30She told me to press in his stomach,
65. 2:32hold his nose and blow in his mouth.
66. 2:33Well, she didn't tell me right because I
67. 2:35applied adult CPR all the way to the
68. 2:38hospital.
69. 2:39When I got him there, they took him from
70. 2:41me and
71. 2:43it seemed like a long time, you know.
72. 2:46But when they came back out, they just
73. 2:47told me that there was nothing else
74. 2:49that, you know, that they could do. And
75. 2:51that began the whirlwind of
76. 2:53me, uh, going talking to the police
77. 2:56officers and
78. 2:59it was just it was horrible, you know,
79. 3:01to think that, you know, but the first
80. 3:03thing came to my mind was that, man, I'm
81. 3:05in trouble cuz I left my kid at the
82. 3:07house, you know, by himself. That was
83. 3:09the first thought.
84. 3:10Sure.
85. 3:10You know, so I I didn't tell the truth,
86. 3:13you know, in the beginning, you know, I
87. 3:15I panicked and I just, you know,
88. 3:18gave them different versions,
89. 3:19you know, and uh
90. 3:21not knowing that in a million years that
91. 3:23I would be charged with murder. You
92. 3:25know, I never thought that.
93. 3:28And um when they did, when I went back
94. 3:30to the hospital the next morning, they
95. 3:31let me go home when this happened.
96. 3:34Next morning, I went back to the
97. 3:35hospital hospital to see what the
98. 3:36autopsy report said, thinking that, you
99. 3:38know, I would know, you know, what what
100. 3:40the cause was.
101. 3:42And the detectives, they came back down
102. 3:43and they were like, you know, we need to
103. 3:45take you back down for more questioning.
104. 3:46So, when I got to the police station,
105. 3:48they just automatically,
106. 3:49you know, jumped on me. They started
107. 3:51telling me I beat my baby, I stomped
108. 3:53him, I did this to him, and I kept
109. 3:54trying to tell them, you know, what had
110. 3:56happened.
111. 3:57And he kept saying, "No, that ain't what
112. 3:59happened. You know, you did This is what
113. 4:00you did, you know." So, he wrote a
114. 4:02statement out, and I was just I had been
115. 4:04there for hours. They had I think it was
116. 4:07like 4 or 5 hours in interrogation, and
117. 4:10I just gave up. I just signed a
118. 4:12document. And that is the document that
119. 4:14they initially used to convict me with.
120. 4:18So, so this whole process, first of all,
121. 4:21something happens that's terrible to
122. 4:23begin with that any parent would would
123. 4:25absolutely be heartbroken.
124. 4:27Yeah.
125. 4:27And so, I'm sure there's that thought in
126. 4:29your mind of like, "Well, surely they
127. 4:32don't they don't think that I I had
128. 4:34anything to do with this. I'm upset, I'm
129. 4:36distraught."
130. 4:38Um and then when you start this process
131. 4:41in the legal system as a young person
132. 4:43who doesn't have a lot of experience in
133. 4:45life, you don't really know
134. 4:48what the parameters are of what you're
135. 4:51doing and what you're signing.
136. 4:52That's right.
137. 4:53So, when when you started going through
138. 4:57the criminal justice system,
139. 5:00uh was there a point at which you knew,
140. 5:02"Uh-oh, this this is you know, I'm sure
141. 5:04at this point still you were thinking,
142. 5:06'It'll be okay. They're going to find
143. 5:09out that I'm innocent.'" Was there a
144. 5:10point at which you realized
145. 5:12Well, it took me a while to get to that
146. 5:14because when the trial came, the
147. 5:17attorneys actually didn't see the
148. 5:18attorney I had been in the county jail
149. 5:19for a year.
150. 5:21I didn't see them but 2 days before
151. 5:22trial. So, I had no preparation. I
152. 5:24didn't know, you know, exactly what to
153. 5:26expect. So, when I got to the courtroom,
154. 5:29I just was told to just look at the
155. 5:31attorneys. I had no knowledge of
156. 5:34anything. I was poor, black, uneducated,
157. 5:36and they took advantage. They really
158. 5:38took advantage of that. The district
159. 5:39attorney, he he took the jury to a
160. 5:41picnic while they were supposed to be
161. 5:42sequestered. He talked to all the
162. 5:44doctors, the nurses. You know, they
163. 5:45pretty much knew what they were going to
164. 5:47do to me before they even saw me. So, my
165. 5:49attorneys, they didn't do the
166. 5:51investigative work. You know, they just
167. 5:53one was drunk during the whole trial. I
168. 5:54mean, it was it was awful.
169. 5:57And to be sitting next to someone by one
170. 5:59saying, "Please put me on the stand. Let
171. 6:01me, you know, tell what happened." That
172. 6:03wasn't done. They wouldn't let me take
173. 6:05the stand in my own defense.
174. 6:07And I guess the district attorney sought
175. 6:09to, you know, use that as, you know,
176. 6:12against me, really.
177. 6:14Now, one of the questions, I'm sure,
178. 6:15that folks have when you talk talk about
179. 6:17this story is, why in the world would
180. 6:20the district attorney pick on you?
181. 6:21What's why why is he interested in
182. 6:24Sabrina? Why is it something that he is
183. 6:28going to put forth all this effort
184. 6:30Mhm.
185. 6:30to convict you?
186. 6:32I feel that it was done
187. 6:34basically because it was racial and
188. 6:36because capital cases are more
189. 6:39uh
190. 6:40um prosecutors are really they really
191. 6:43want to win them because they look good
192. 6:44in the book. And I think this my case
193. 6:47was his first one. So, that's why I
194. 6:49think that he, you know, he was young, a
195. 6:51young DA, and I just think that he
196. 6:53that's why he done what he did to try to
197. 6:56gain a conviction in my case.
198. 6:58Cuz I had majority white on my case. I
199. 7:00had a
200. 7:01uh two blacks. One was an alternate. So,
201. 7:05I I basically, you know, I think that's
202. 7:07that was the real reason, you know.
203. 7:10And so, tell us a little bit about your
204. 7:12your hometown that you're in at the time
205. 7:14and and obviously um
206. 7:16when you're talking about racial
207. 7:18challenges living in Mississippi is a is
208. 7:22a state that's known sometimes for
209. 7:24having racial challenges. Tell us a
210. 7:26little bit about what the what the town
211. 7:27was like and and what your experience
212. 7:30growing up there was like.
213. 7:31Well, back then, you know, we
214. 7:33experienced racism a lot, you know,
215. 7:34being that in my town I didn't think I
216. 7:36would experience that, but we had in
217. 7:38neighborhoods where they we weren't
218. 7:40wanted, you know, things like that.
219. 7:42School, same thing.
220. 7:44Um
221. 7:44Um but it wasn't real bad, but it was it
222. 7:47was there and you could tell, you know.
223. 7:51Uh but actually, I still stay in the
224. 7:53same town.
225. 7:54Um I refused to run
226. 7:56um because I didn't do anything wrong,
227. 7:58you know.
228. 7:59I want to say that later on in my second
229. 8:02trial, they found out that my son had
230. 8:03heart problems. He had kidney problems
231. 8:06and he had chronic bowel syndrome. So,
232. 8:08it was nothing that I did to cause his
233. 8:10death. It was just I didn't know how to
234. 8:12apply CPR. And um
235. 8:15today, I have a 13-year-old daughter
236. 8:17that has the same exact disease that he
237. 8:19has
238. 8:20had. So, it's still a challenge for me
239. 8:22because she has to go back to the doctor
240. 8:24every 6 months.
241. 8:26And they're telling me that they can't
242. 8:27save her kidneys. She has polycystic
243. 8:30kidney disease type two, so
244. 8:32that's kind of hard, you know, dealing
245. 8:34with the same thing, you know. Um
246. 8:37and
247. 8:38you know, I do this uh going around
248. 8:41speaking talking about my case hoping to
249. 8:43um let young the young the youth know
250. 8:46what happens to, you know, young people,
251. 8:48what could happen. Um
252. 8:50and that's I work with this organization
253. 8:53called Witness to Innocence and we're
254. 8:55comprised of nothing but death row
255. 8:56exonerees and what we do is we go around
256. 8:58states speaking about the death penalty
257. 9:00and its causes, it's unjust
258. 9:03and everything hoping to affect a
259. 9:04change.
260. 9:06So, in the process when you finally got
261. 9:09through this first trial
262. 9:10Mhm.
263. 9:11and you've sort of set for us the the
264. 9:13parameters of what that was like going
265. 9:15through that. Um when when the verdict
266. 9:18was delivered
267. 9:19Mhm.
268. 9:19obviously, that had to be crushing for
269. 9:22you.
270. 9:22Yeah.
271. 9:23Uh even though I'm guessing at that
272. 9:24point you kind of suspected the
273. 9:26direction things were going to go,
274. 9:28right?
275. 9:28because um I noticed the only thing I
276. 9:30noticed being that age was that
277. 9:33the jury, they didn't pay attention to
278. 9:35anything that my attorney said. They
279. 9:37were looking up at the ceilings, looking
280. 9:39at the floors, and when the district
281. 9:41attorney got to speak, they were at
282. 9:43attention. They were at everything he
283. 9:45said. It's like they was clinging on his
284. 9:47word. But when the verdict was read, you
285. 9:49know, I had to stand before the judge,
286. 9:50and he said, "I sentence you to die by
287. 9:52lethal injection."
288. 9:54Um I was sentenced March 13th of 1990.
289. 9:57My death date was July the 2nd of 1990,
290. 9:59and he said, "May God have mercy on your
291. 10:02soul." At that time, I just didn't know
292. 10:04how to feel or how to think. I mean, I
293. 10:07just felt like, you know, can this be
294. 10:08real? I mean,
295. 10:10I mean,
296. 10:11"Why?" you know, was my was my
297. 10:14questions. And um they whisked me out of
298. 10:16there just like they took me in, and
299. 10:19and they sent me to um prison.
300. 10:23So, the one, I guess, positive thing
301. 10:26about this verdict is that almost
302. 10:29instantaneously there's expected to be
303. 10:31an appeal, of course.
304. 10:32Mhm.
305. 10:33And so, you know, probably going into
306. 10:36that that you're not the July date is
307. 10:39probably not going to happen.
308. 10:41Um but you have this whole process in
309. 10:44front of you, right?
310. 10:45Mhm.
311. 10:45No, you you felt like that was going to
312. 10:47Really?
313. 10:48My attorneys did not explain it to me.
314. 10:50Huh.
315. 10:50I actually thought July the 2nd was my
316. 10:53day to die. I paced the floors.
317. 10:57I listened for every chain, every sound.
318. 10:59Um
319. 11:00I was not aware of that.
320. 11:02It was a death row inmate um who told me
321. 11:05that the state had to exhaust all
322. 11:07remedies before they could actually
323. 11:09carry out a death sentence. I did not
324. 11:11know that.
325. 11:11Mhm.
326. 11:11I was not told that.
327. 11:13Seems like maybe that would have been
328. 11:15something that was mentioned during the
329. 11:16first trial, right?
330. 11:18So, you begin that process, and but the
331. 11:21difference now, of course, is that
332. 11:23instead of a person who is free and and
333. 11:26living your life, you are now on death
334. 11:29row while you're going through that
335. 11:30appeals process.
336. 11:32Uh
337. 11:33tell us a little bit about the
338. 11:34experience of being a person who, in
339. 11:37your case, innocent and is on death row.
340. 11:41It's torture.
341. 11:43I mean, you're living in a 6 by 9 cell.
342. 11:46You have 23 hours.
343. 11:481 hour you're on a call.
344. 11:50Um
345. 11:51sometimes I got ants,
346. 11:53bugs on my trays,
347. 11:55rats in my cell.
348. 11:58Um it was horrible. And I wouldn't wish
349. 12:00that on anybody. Um
350. 12:02I did end up with two sets of attorneys.
351. 12:04One was named Clive Stafford Smith, who
352. 12:06was over the Guantanamo Bay Reprieve is
353. 12:10what it say what it is. And I end up
354. 12:12with another attorney from Jackson,
355. 12:14Mississippi, who came in and they
356. 12:16took the second trial. They took me to
357. 12:18the second trial. And it took a hour of
358. 12:20deliberation before I was found, um
359. 12:23not guilty.
360. 12:25And exonerated.
361. 12:26So, that second trial, um when you
362. 12:29started it,
363. 12:30did you feel differently? Did you feel
364. 12:32more hopeful this time around?
365. 12:34I did because I went back to school um
366. 12:37while I was incarcerated. I got my GED.
367. 12:40Um I learned a little bit of, you know,
368. 12:42reading law cases and things like that.
369. 12:45So, I was more uh susceptible and
370. 12:47understanding that as to what was going
371. 12:49on with me. Um and my attorneys talked
372. 12:52to me.
373. 12:53So, I had good turn attorneys this time.
374. 12:56Well, when the first set of attorneys,
375. 12:57were they public defenders or
376. 12:58Yes, they were. Public defenders.
377. 13:00Mhm. So, so you go through this process
378. 13:03in the second trial feeling better about
379. 13:05the situation in the sense that you have
380. 13:07better communication, you know more
381. 13:08about what the process is going to be.
382. 13:11Right.
383. 13:11But did you, during that process, feel
384. 13:14like
385. 13:15they're they're going to listen to me
386. 13:16this time? I think
387. 13:17I had faith. I knew that I was going to
388. 13:19Before I went to trial, before I went
389. 13:22out of the jail, I was giving away all
390. 13:23my stuff. I already knew. I just felt
391. 13:25it. I felt that I was going to finally
392. 13:27be vindicated and that they were going
393. 13:29to show and tell the truth as to what
394. 13:31happened.
395. 13:33So.
396. 13:34I knew it.
397. 13:35So after 6 years or so
398. 13:38on death row
399. 13:40uh you're saying 23 hours in that that
400. 13:43cell per day. Um you finally get through
401. 13:46to the end of that second trial and the
402. 13:49verdict is announced.
403. 13:51What was what was that?
404. 13:53My legs I felt like uh spaghetti
405. 13:56noodles.
406. 13:57When I had to stand before the judge and
407. 13:58he gave the verdict and I just I fell. I
408. 14:00fell to the floor cuz I was just so
409. 14:03happy finally that you know, my story
410. 14:07had been told and the truth had been
411. 14:09told. You know, and I thought there at
412. 14:11that time that is everything was over.
413. 14:14But it's not over. I'm still going
414. 14:16through the same thing now. It's just
415. 14:18that I'm not locked up.
416. 14:20So let's talk about that. When you say
417. 14:22you're going through the same thing um
418. 14:24a lot of folks believe probably
419. 14:27erroneously that once you're exonerated
420. 14:29in your case the whole case was expunged
421. 14:31right from your record. So there's no
422. 14:33evidence that you were ever convicted.
423. 14:35I'm not I'm not so absolutely sure.
424. 14:37Okay. In theory there's no evidence.
425. 14:40Right.
426. 14:40Um and so you would be then a person who
427. 14:44is like anyone else. You don't have a
428. 14:46criminal record. You're out. You're
429. 14:47looking for work
430. 14:49uh but then that doesn't go so well,
431. 14:51right?
432. 14:52go so well. I've tried to apply for jobs
433. 14:54and I've been told I'm ineligible for
434. 14:56hire and I I don't understand that. So I
435. 15:00walked around when I got out in '95,
436. 15:02December '95, I walked around from
437. 15:03December '95 to 2009 without a job.
438. 15:07Um and then the the governor passed the
439. 15:10law for exonerates to receive
440. 15:12compensation in Mississippi. Um I I
441. 15:15filed my claim and they they settled
442. 15:18with me, but they did it according to
443. 15:20the way they felt that it should be
444. 15:21done. You know, um
445. 15:24and that's still hard cuz they give you
446. 15:25they pay you once a year.
447. 15:27Um that's just like a average person
448. 15:29working, you know, um but it's still
449. 15:32it doesn't I mean it helps, but it's
450. 15:34not, you know,
451. 15:35like I think it should have been.
452. 15:37So.
453. 15:38And so one of the things that uh and
454. 15:39you've heard a lot in the last year or
455. 15:41so, especially about getting rid of the
456. 15:44box uh when someone has been convicted
457. 15:47of a crime, taking that off application
458. 15:49forms, so that people aren't
459. 15:51discriminated against. Um when you look
460. 15:54at that concept, is that something that
461. 15:58uh in in your work with your group in
462. 16:00witnessing to innocence, is that
463. 16:02something you would support?
464. 16:03Yes, I think they do because what do you
465. 16:05say? I mean, I I didn't commit a crime.
466. 16:08So, what am I going to say when they ask
467. 16:10that question? You know, you you check
468. 16:12it and you say, "Yeah, but." I mean,
469. 16:15what employers want is going to want to
470. 16:17be, you know, put that in their job
471. 16:19system or call attention to their job by
472. 16:21all you having to do that. So, yes, I
473. 16:23think they should get rid of that. And I
474. 16:25don't think it's right.
475. 16:27So, when we were talking earlier about
476. 16:29the whole initial process in the first
477. 16:32trial,
478. 16:33um
479. 16:33you definitely mentioned that you felt
480. 16:35like that race was a key factor in
481. 16:37there.
482. 16:38Help us understand why you say that and
483. 16:40what what
484. 16:42uh
485. 16:42made you feel like that the race was a
486. 16:46part of this whole equation.
487. 16:47of the jury for one. You know, you're
488. 16:49supposed to be uh a group of your peers
489. 16:52and the people that look like you. Um
490. 16:55it wasn't a group of my peers.
491. 16:57Um it was all, you know, one sided. My
492. 17:00attorneys, um
493. 17:02you know, tried to speak and it it was
494. 17:04like, you know, the judge was on the
495. 17:06the district attorney's side and and so
496. 17:09after the the trial, though I didn't
497. 17:11mention, um they gave me a candlelight
498. 17:13vigil and black people came, you know,
499. 17:15to the courthouse and stood in my
500. 17:17defense saying that, you know, I was
501. 17:19wrongfully treated and
502. 17:20and things like that. And And just the
503. 17:22history of the town, per se, you know.
504. 17:25So.
505. 17:25And it's really, I mean, when you think
506. 17:27about the fact that the only woman
507. 17:29exonerated from death row in the US, uh
508. 17:32first of all, not something that I'm
509. 17:35sure you ever wanted to have on your
510. 17:36record.
511. 17:37No.
512. 17:37Right?
513. 17:37That's not good.
514. 17:38No, that's not a book that you were
515. 17:39looking to write.
516. 17:40No.
517. 17:40But but being a person that has been
518. 17:44through this experience of being
519. 17:45wrongfully accused,
520. 17:48would you anticipate that there are
521. 17:49probably lots of other people that are
522. 17:51in your position that just didn't get
523. 17:54the break of the second trial or things
524. 17:56didn't go their way, but
525. 17:57I know it is. Um cuz today it's like 156
526. 18:01of us death row exonerees. And then not
527. 18:03counting the countless numbers of
528. 18:05exonerees that haven't been uh on death
529. 18:07row. And that just lets you know that
530. 18:10something is wrong. Something is wrong.
531. 18:12And the ones that have been killed and
532. 18:14they found out later on, "Oh, my bad."
533. 18:16You know,
534. 18:18I mean, something is wrong with the
535. 18:19system and it needs to be changed. I
536. 18:21mean, I just think that, you know, the
537. 18:24way the sentencing laws and things are
538. 18:26is some get in, some don't, you know? It
539. 18:28shouldn't be like that.
540. 18:30Well, and many countries uh western
541. 18:33countries have outlawed the death
542. 18:35penalty.
543. 18:36Um not everybody, but many have outlawed
544. 18:39it. Is that something that the Witness
545. 18:41to Innocence group wants to see happen?
546. 18:43Yes, we are we are really working toward
547. 18:47trying to get our stories out there
548. 18:48enough so people can understand because
549. 18:50I think it is mostly the main thing is
550. 18:53lack of knowledge. A lot of people don't
551. 18:55really understand or know that this is
552. 18:58actually happening, you know, that these
553. 19:00are real stories out there. This is
554. 19:02people that have been, you know, uh
555. 19:05uh convicted of crimes they didn't
556. 19:06commit. So, yeah, we really work toward
557. 19:09We work hard toward that.
558. 19:11And I imagine that uh like almost anyone
559. 19:14that runs a foul of the criminal justice
560. 19:16system,
561. 19:17the more that you protest that I'm
562. 19:19innocent and I didn't do anything,
563. 19:21probably the more people disbelieve you,
564. 19:22right?
565. 19:23Right. I had that a lot, you know, even
566. 19:26when I first got out, it was like, oh,
567. 19:28she just slipped through the cracks of
568. 19:29the system and you know, you spend your
569. 19:31life trying to prove, you know, but I
570. 19:33I've gotten to the point now I don't do
571. 19:34that. I just basically tell you my story
572. 19:37and it's up to you to decide whether,
573. 19:39you know,
574. 19:40cuz people are going to think the way
575. 19:41they want to anyway, you know.
576. 19:43All I'm trying to do is just live my
577. 19:44life,
578. 19:45raise my kids.
579. 19:46Right.
580. 19:47And now now that you're
581. 19:49in this position, you've written this
582. 19:51book, you're going and speaking to
583. 19:52college students and that's you're here
584. 19:55today for
585. 19:56speech to University of Central
586. 19:58Missouri.
587. 19:59When you think about
588. 20:01the impact that you can make now, what
589. 20:03do you hope to accomplish now in in your
590. 20:06role as a person that's going out and
591. 20:08trying to raise this awareness?
592. 20:10Well, my thing is it's not about me
593. 20:12anymore. It's the younger generation.
594. 20:14Younger minds. You know, talents that
595. 20:17they have that maybe in their generation
596. 20:20they can affect a change and make things
597. 20:22different because young people are
598. 20:23totally different the way we were
599. 20:25growing up. And I figured that if I tell
600. 20:28my story and get enough people to listen
601. 20:31to the story, maybe, you know, we can
602. 20:33have, you know, people on fire for a
603. 20:35change, you know, in the United States
604. 20:37and that's basically my goal, you know,
605. 20:40is to try to affect a change.
606. 20:42Well, certainly this has been a topic
607. 20:44that's that's been in the news in the
608. 20:46last couple of years, especially since
609. 20:48Michael Brown, it's been really front
610. 20:51and center.
611. 20:52And I know the Department of Justice is
612. 20:54is looking into the criminal justice
613. 20:57system generally.
614. 20:59You had mentioned earlier that you had
615. 21:00an opportunity to speak to some folks at
616. 21:02the Department of Justice. Tell us a
617. 21:04little bit about that experience.
618. 21:05Last week actually, we went to the
619. 21:07Department of Justice and they were
620. 21:09really open to what we were saying. Um,
621. 21:12they put all our ideas on board, you
622. 21:15know, and they were trying to find out
623. 21:16about not just death row exonerations,
624. 21:18but exonerations in general.
625. 21:20And they were trying to find ways that
626. 21:21they could fix the system. And that was
627. 21:23really awesome to me because this was my
628. 21:26second visit. And I was just happy at
629. 21:29the you know, introduction and the the
630. 21:31way they were toward us. So, I'm looking
631. 21:33forward, you know, something great to
632. 21:35happen. You know, where the justice
633. 21:37system is.
634. 21:39So, let's go back. I want to go
635. 21:41backwards a little bit here and talk
636. 21:42about the time that you were on death
637. 21:44row.
638. 21:45Um, it you've described it pretty pretty
639. 21:47effectively in terms of the bad things
640. 21:49about it. Is there anything positive at
641. 21:52all? I mean, how does a human being
642. 21:54cling to hope when you're when you're on
643. 21:56death row and there's there's literally
644. 21:58no positive thing in your life?
645. 22:01Well, at first, I you know, at first I
646. 22:03started to give up when I was in there.
647. 22:05But, I got to the point to say that, you
648. 22:07know, God is my main
649. 22:10hope. That's all I had. I didn't have
650. 22:12anything else.
651. 22:13Um, and I got to the point to say that I
652. 22:16got to do something for me.
653. 22:18I can't live according to what has
654. 22:21happened to me.
655. 22:23So, I began to write a journal, you
656. 22:25know, I I looked at all the different
657. 22:26situations in prison, you know, and
658. 22:29decided that, you know, what would I do
659. 22:32in that situation? Just trying to grow
660. 22:33myself up, so to speak, and you know,
661. 22:36that's the way I live today. I try to be
662. 22:38as positive as I can.
663. 22:40Um, holding grudges and
664. 22:42that don't hurt nobody but me.
665. 22:45You know, you could be mad at that
666. 22:46person, but that person is not hurting
667. 22:47them. So, I choose to live my life in
668. 22:50bliss, you know, I I live as positive as
669. 22:52I can. I try to teach my children about
670. 22:55the things that we take for granted,
671. 22:57like simple air we breathe, uh,
672. 23:00the trees, the ground, you know?
673. 23:03As opposed to the way I was at first,
674. 23:05you know, 17, you know I was didn't
675. 23:07think about those things. You know, now
676. 23:10that that stuff is important to me, you
677. 23:12know, and that's that's the way I live
678. 23:13my life.
679. 23:15So, you had the the the 6 years that
680. 23:18you're in this cell and you literally
681. 23:20have only your faith at that time.
682. 23:23it.
683. 23:23Uh did you even did you have an
684. 23:26opportunity even talk to any of the
685. 23:28other folks around?
686. 23:29that was on excuse me, the girl that was
687. 23:31on death row with me at the time, she
688. 23:33was next door to me and we would have
689. 23:35conversations through the wall, you
690. 23:36know, there's a toilet uh connected
691. 23:38between the rooms and I would get down
692. 23:40on the floor and that was our like phone
693. 23:42and we would talk and she was much older
694. 23:43than me and she taught me a lot of
695. 23:45things, you know, while I was in there.
696. 23:47So, I did have some type of, you know,
697. 23:49somebody to talk to.
698. 23:52Yeah.
699. 23:53Now, when we think about the overall
700. 23:56process,
701. 23:57the whole thing from beginning to end
702. 23:59that you've been through, what would you
703. 24:01say are the key things that you've
704. 24:02learned in that process?
705. 24:04Learned I don't ever want to go inside
706. 24:06of a prison. I don't care if they put
707. 24:08water beds in there. I do not want to
708. 24:10see that.
709. 24:12Uh um you know, I've learned that, you
710. 24:15know, life is more precious than what I
711. 24:17thought.
712. 24:18Um
713. 24:19and I just right now I'm working through
714. 24:23trying to my trust issues, you know, it
715. 24:25took me 10 years to get to the point
716. 24:27where I am now. You know, I used to get
717. 24:29up every night like clockwork and go and
718. 24:31check my family, you know, check my
719. 24:32husband, check my kids, you know, even
720. 24:34the dog, you know, just to make sure
721. 24:36that, you know, everybody's breathing on
722. 24:38my watch. So, it's it's hard and that's
723. 24:41the thing with exonerates, when you get
724. 24:43out of prison, they don't give you any
725. 24:44mental counseling, they don't give you
726. 24:45anything, you know, to help you. So.
727. 24:49Well, thank you, Sabrina, for joining us
728. 24:51today. The book is called Exonerated.
729. 24:54It's the the
730. 24:55Butler story and it is Sabrina's very
731. 24:58difficult tale of what happened to her
732. 25:01but now making a big difference in the
733. 25:03world. So, we appreciate you joining us
734. 25:05here today, Sabrina. Thank you for
735. 25:07watching us and we will see you back
736. 25:09here on pause again next week. Thanks
737. 25:11for joining us.