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Paul Heyman talks Brock Lesnar, The Streak & Roman Reigns: Six Feet Under — Transcript

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0:01I'm gonna be crisscross apple sauce.
0:02Or I could just, is this what I used to do?
0:05I'd always like the edge of a chair like this.
0:07Well, that'll make it good if you do that.
0:08Like you just move in like say something.
0:12And I know you have no PTSD from Vince,
0:16(laughs) but one day, he just looked at me and goes,
0:19"Why are you always in combat position?"
0:21"What?" "You're always ready.
0:22Like you're ready to just pounce on something."
0:24I was like, "Yeah, no, the chair's not comfortable."
0:27"Make yourself comfortable.
0:28You have to eat shit and learn to like the taste."
0:29I was like, "Even when I'm sitting down?"
0:32I was like, "This is where I'm comfortable."
0:33"It looks like you're ready to fight me at all times."
0:35I was like, "Well, okay." Well.
0:38I mean, it's a gimmick.
0:40(stirring music)
0:48(lightning thunders)
0:54Welcome to "Six Feet Under",
0:55a WWE Fanatics original production.
0:59Today our guest, I don't know how I landed this one,
1:01if you're gonna talk about Mount Rushmore as this guy's got
1:04to be on the Mount Rushmore of managers and brains
1:07in the wrestling business, the great Paul Heyman.
1:11Woo-hoo! Paul.
1:12Sir. Thank you.
1:13Thank you for joining us. Thank you.
1:15Right on the heels of SummerSlam.
1:20Wow, what a...
1:22Well, how are you feeling after SummerSlam?
1:25I mean, it's got, it's kind of a,
1:28sure, a bittersweet moment, I guess.
1:34I'm accepting of the reality of the situation.
1:38You know, when you first break in,
1:39so many of the veterans would tell you, "Be accepting of it.
1:45Don't fight against what the reality of the situation is."
1:50It's the same as if someone comes to you today and says,
1:53"Oh, we have this so perfectly built
1:55for you for WrestleMania."
1:57You're gonna shut it down immediately
1:59because you've accepted the fact that this is
2:02what you're doing now, that is what you were doing then.
2:06And Brock has always been a realist about himself.
2:11And it's time.
2:13And to him, I would hear this every year from him,
2:17"Nope, this is my last contract. This is it."
2:19And he meant it when he said it.
2:20Sure. And as we got closer,
2:23he would then change his mind
2:26or it didn't take a lot to talk him into it.
2:29But I knew that this was it.
2:31Yeah. And because he knew
2:34that this was it. Right.
2:35He wasn't just saying it because he felt it at the moment.
2:38This decision was fait accompli.
2:40Yeah.
2:43You know, sitting there yesterday,
2:45as we filmed this, it was yesterday.
2:49What a full circle kind of moment.
2:53And I don't really get into a lot of the weeds of...
2:59I try to, I try not to.
3:01But the phone call
3:02that I got yesterday really meant a lot to me.
3:06And I'm not gonna get into what the phone call was about,
3:10but the fact that I received that phone call,
3:14it was just, it said a lot about him, you guys together.
3:19And it was something he didn't have to do, you know?
3:23But it meant the world to me as an old timer
3:28and you know, and it just shows.
3:31I don't think Brock really got enough credit
3:36for his passion for the business, you know?
3:39I think most people, and you know,
3:40everybody chirps and everybody gets on the,
3:43everybody has their opinion that they don't know shit
3:45about what they're talking about.
3:47You know, it was always, you know,
3:49"Oh, it's always about the money or they bitched about the,
3:52you know, or the dates," and everything like that.
3:54I think he genuinely, I mean, he had to love this business.
3:59And things like that phone call yesterday just kind
4:02of reiterated to me like, yeah, he understood, he gets it.
4:07And you know, it's kind of sad for me
4:11'cause it's one less guy that's gonna be around
4:15that understands tradition
4:18and the way things used to be done.
4:22Well, he really has come full circle
4:25because everything that he has been doing for
4:28and with Oba, you did for and with him.
4:31Right.
4:32And that phone call was necessary.
4:38There is a code of honor in this industry
4:41that if you are in there with someone
4:43that you can't even stand on a personal level,
4:48but you stand on the chair and you fall backwards,
4:52you know that person is going to catch you.
4:55That's the code of honor that we all sign up for
4:59in this industry.
5:01Otherwise, so many more people would have
5:04their faces smashed in.
5:06So true. (laughs)
5:08Yes. You know?
5:09So that phone call was a must.
5:15Yeah.
5:17And I couldn't imagine the day going by
5:19without that phone call being placed.
5:22Yeah.
5:23Well, it, you know, it meant the world to me.
5:26And I know you were,
5:29I could see you sitting in the room like,
5:31yeah, that's, you know.
5:34Well, he used my phone. Well, I know
5:36he used your phone.
5:37He tried to use, I know he used your phone.
5:40But I know that you were, you know, as a,
5:45I wouldn't necessarily call you a traditionalist,
5:47but in a sense, you are.
5:49I mean, you're from the old school and it was just like,
5:53it was a very cool moment.
5:55And then you go out and you know,
5:57they did what they did, and it was just like, wow.
6:00All right, man. That's really cool.
6:03Do what they did on the wood.
6:05Yeah, that part I did, yeah. That's a whole different
6:07animal, geez Louise.
6:09With no knee pads. No knee pads,
6:11like seriously. That's a total broad thing
6:12to do right there. Gosh.
6:13I was like, "Gosh, almighty."
6:15Oof. Man, I was like,
6:16"Yeah, I don't know, I think I'd have took the...
6:18I'd think I'd have done a mat."
6:19I used the mats.
6:21Of course, I got two metal knees now from...
6:23But I'm a little more sensitive to that.
6:27But I do have a, you know,
6:29it's an incredible moment and you know,
6:31we're gonna get into what's next,
6:33but I do have a little bit of beef with you.
6:35Uh-oh. With me?
6:36Yeah. Just one?
6:37Well, no, I got several, but one I'm gonna talk about.
6:40Like I mean, you know...
6:41I feel like I'm Bruce Prichard here.
6:43Oh, no. Oh, no.
6:45No, no, you don't. Does he have more heat
6:46than I do? Oh, gosh. Yeah, yeah.
6:48Oh, okay. Yeah, for sure.
6:49Then I feel much better. Oh, yeah, you got,
6:51yeah, you're way good now.
6:53Thank you. Bruce is,
6:54if I could just, incinerator.
6:57(Paul laughs)
7:00I like how when we said that,
7:02how everyone just starts muttering (censored)
7:04about Bruce. Yeah, right?
7:05Everybody back here. Everybody's got their own Bruce story.
7:07Bruce, it wasn't me. What did he do to y'all?
7:09Geez. It's them MFing you.
7:11Yeah. I heard it.
7:12I'd come to your defense, but...
7:13Yeah, I mean, geez. (chuckles)
7:20Like every interview,
7:21like Brock has been in so many big matches.
7:27Why is it, (Paul laughing)
7:29it seems like the only thing you ever talk about is
7:32how he beat me?
7:34I mean, "He's the one in 21 and one," and then,
7:38you know, and then Hell in a Cell.
7:39Like dude's got some other stuff on his resume.
7:42Why you got to always go after me?
7:44Because it's the most impressive stat.
7:46Wow. Yeah.
7:47But I mean, I get it, but...
7:51He was the NCAA Division I Heavyweight Championship
7:53from the University of Minnesota in the year 2000.
7:56That's big.
7:57Yeah.
7:58He was the youngest WWE champion ever.
8:01That's big. Yes.
8:03He knocked out, and it was a standing knockout.
8:06He knocked out Randy Couture,
8:07the greatest heavyweight in the history of UFC
8:10for the undisputed UFC Heavyweight Championship.
8:12He did. That's huge.
8:14He comes back to WWE, he multiple title reigns,
8:18and some of them history-making title reigns,
8:21some of them because of the longevity,
8:23they were history-making title reigns, and they're all huge.
8:26Multi-time WrestleMania main eventer.
8:29All huge accomplishments.
8:31None of them compare
8:33to being the one that conquered
8:36the Undertaker's undefeated streak in WrestleMania.
8:38It's the greatest claim to fame,
8:42and it always will be when it comes to Brock Lesnar.
8:45That's his epitaph.
8:46Brock Lesnar conquered the Undertaker's undefeated streak,
8:50former UFC and WWE Heavyweight champion.
8:52Yeah.
8:54It's the, and it still to this day,
8:57gets the biggest reaction.
9:00Yeah. If it didn't get a reaction-
9:02There's always a, "ooh,"
9:03like because you say it out loud, it's like... (gasps)
9:05Like it's taboo. Like I'm not supposed to brag about it.
9:09It's, hey, it is the bragging right.
9:13It is the ultimate bragging right.
9:15At WrestleMania XXX,
9:16if Brock had won every title in existence,
9:19WWE, Intercontinental, US,
9:21all the other titles in the industry at the same time,
9:25and he pinned every champion or tapped them all out,
9:27it would not have been as big for him as that moment.
9:31Yeah. It's the...
9:33If the public wouldn't react to it, I would've-
9:37Well, yeah, you'd move on,
9:38I'd move on. you get new material,
9:40but it still gets the- But it becomes a sore spot
9:41every time I say, obviously.
9:44I mean, no, I mean, dealing with it,
9:46but I mean, it's, you know,
9:48it gets a little old. Not very well.
9:50Like I did, you know. It's 12 years ago,
9:53and to this day,
9:55it still gets the loudest reaction of anything that we say.
9:59Yeah. Sorry, babe.
10:00You can't argue with that.
10:02I know, but I mean, still, it's like, come on, man.
10:07He's got some other stuff on the card.
10:08You always got to go to that. It's kind of a sore spot.
10:10I always figured, by the way, that when I say it,
10:12that they'll run a lower third thing
10:14and tune into Undertaker and Michelle
10:16on the "Six Feet Under" podcast,
10:18presented by WWE, powered by Fanatics.
10:21(Mark laughs)
10:24It's good, all right. And this is
10:24why he's so good. And now ladies
10:26and gentlemen, an ad read by the Undertaker.
10:28Oh, yes. Three, two, one, go.
10:30All right, get your...
10:32No, no. No, man. (chuckles)
10:37I just had to get that off my chest, you know?
10:39I was just like, "This guy is always talking about that.
10:42I mean, the hell?" (Paul laughs)
10:44Trying to get that out of people's minds.
10:46Let's talk about that day. That day was crazy.
10:49I don't know how much you've talked about this together,
10:51but you've told the story.
10:53I mean, he still literally does not remember anything past,
10:57what, like three o'clock? Yeah.
10:59That afternoon and that match.
11:01I mean, could you,
11:02'cause you're so aware of everything that's going on,
11:04reactions, could you tell that he had been knocked cuckoo?
11:09Was there any point early in the match
11:10where you could tell Mark was out of it?
11:12I thought it was on the outside with the pine.
11:17Mm-hm.
11:18To me, that looked like, ooh, that was a rough landing.
11:22Yeah. And from there, if,
11:26and I'm sure you've watched it back.
11:28Yeah. From there,
11:29it looked to me like, okay,
11:32we started to try to hold it all together.
11:36Yeah. Meaning you and Brock.
11:38Yeah, no, I think that's,
11:40yeah, I think that's somewhere where it happened.
11:44But like I, you know, when I watch it, it's like,
11:47that's not that, you know?
11:48I mean, I've taken far worse bumps and popped up.
11:52I think kind of what happened is, you know,
11:55it's late, it's getting late in my career.
11:58And at that point,
11:58I'm only working a couple of times a year and you know,
12:02it's father time catching up with me.
12:05You just, when your body's not used to that trauma,
12:08you know, you just, you don't take it as well.
12:11Right. And Brock was, you know,
12:13Brock was physical, but Brock was very safe, right?
12:15I mean, you knew you were gonna get thrown around.
12:17There wasn't a lot of guys that threw me around.
12:19He was physically able to do it.
12:22It was all safe, but it was just, I just think like,
12:27I think between being on the floor,
12:30and I guess that's the only thing I can figure.
12:34Well, it's also the number of dings
12:36that you've taken over the years.
12:38Rhonda Rousey was fascinating in this discussion.
12:44We were on a plane at one point, and out of nowhere,
12:49she just turned to me and said,
12:50"Did I even tell you what really happened between me
12:53and Holly Holm?"
12:54And I had never brought that subject up.
12:57And I know, and she started talking
12:59about how when she was a kid,
13:03I think it was that she fell down the stairs
13:05or something along the lines, an accident happened,
13:08and it knocked her out cold.
13:11And because of that, she was always vulnerable to that,
13:14to getting clipped in that, you know,
13:17just on the right spot. The chin, yeah.
13:19And she took the clip.
13:21In the first round, she was out,
13:23Yeah. but on her feet,
13:25because that was her training.
13:26Just fight it through, fight it through.
13:28You know, ignore it, let's just go.
13:30And everything was on muscle memory.
13:34There comes a time that when you've taken so many hits
13:38that it's not that nuclear hit that wipes you out.
13:42It's just right- All the little ones.
13:44It's just on the right spot at the right moment.
13:46Yeah. And that's kind
13:47of what you thought when you watched it back, right?
13:48'Cause you thought it was just like a shot at the beginning
13:51when he was on you.
13:52You thought maybe... Yeah, I, yeah.
13:55There's nothing that stands out like, "Oh."
13:57Yeah. I mean, yeah,
13:59there's some impact here, but- You were out though.
14:02I was, yeah. You were cuckoo
14:03until about 4:00 AM in the hospital.
14:05Yeah. That match though proved
14:07a lot of things about old-school philosophy in the industry,
14:12in that if you watch the match back
14:17with a discerning eye, you can tell,
14:20okay, they're trying to hold this together.
14:22Something's about to go wrong or is kind of going wrong
14:26and they're keeping it on the track, but it's teetering.
14:29Mm-hm.
14:31And no one remembers the match.
14:33Yeah. But including
14:34without a joke, you know? Yeah, I know
14:36what you're saying. No one remembers the match.
14:38They remember the finish. Yeah.
14:39They remember the crowd reaction.
14:42To me, the moment was when the scoreboard changed.
14:47[Mark and Michelle] Yeah.
14:48And the audience knew at that moment,
14:51"Oh, my God, this is really happening."
14:54And then you feel the rumble in the crowd like,
14:58"Oh, my God, this is really,
15:00we're witnessing something that we thought
15:02we'd never get to witness." Yeah.
15:05And that tells a lot about our industry
15:09in that it's not about everything.
15:13It's about the moment. Mm-hm.
15:15That people remember the finish,
15:18that people remember the moment,
15:21that people remember the emotion.
15:23They don't have to really remember the match itself.
15:27Right. That if this is
15:28what you're building towards,
15:30if that moment is what you're building towards
15:33and you deliver it,
15:35that's the memory. Yeah.
15:37That's what people take home with them.
15:39Yeah. 12 years later,
15:41it's still a sore spot because of that,
15:43not with people saying, "Well, you know, during the match,
15:46you know, I was kind of expecting this and..."
15:49Yeah. It's still the,
15:52as much as Hogan and Andre
15:55from WrestleMania III is the WrestleMania moment
15:57of the early days,
15:59or Steve Austin
16:00and Mike Tyson being the Attitude Era's moment,
16:04to me, this generation, that's the moment.
16:07Yeah. Yeah.
16:09Which is why he still brings it up.
16:11Thank you. (laughs) Again,
16:13another full circle moment. You're welcome.
16:15You know, it's fun talking to people.
16:17We're about, we're the same age, right?
16:18We're not- 1965.
16:20Yeah, 1965.
16:22You're still incredibly passionate.
16:25Like when you talk, when you talk about wrestling,
16:27when you talk about this, you can feel,
16:29when you get excited, your eyes light up.
16:33How do you maintain your passion for the business?
16:37And then obviously with all of the changes of the business,
16:42how do you stay so connected?
16:48I love it. I still love it.
16:50It's such a...
16:53This is gonna be a word that will be taken
16:55out of context all over the internet,
16:58but it's just this perverse art form.
17:01(laughs) It really is.
17:04But that's true. It is.
17:06It's such an entity unto itself.
17:12Look at how hard from Vince
17:17to Booker to the Rock to Austin,
17:22people would try to make you come out of character,
17:25in the ring, in public, even when the cameras were off.
17:29And this is way before, you know,
17:31the days of everyone has, you know,
17:34video on their phone. Sure.
17:35Some did, but it wasn't prevalent.
17:38Right. And yet that was
17:40the big thing for them to do after the show.
17:42"Oh, let's get Mark to come out of character."
17:45Yes. You know, just to show
17:46one moment of this Mark in that skin
17:52was the Holy Grail for everybody, why?
17:55Because I have deep respect for what Paul Giamatti does.
17:59I have deep respect for what Christian Bale does
18:02or Tom Hardy or any of these great performers
18:07or actors, or Meryl Streep, et cetera, et cetera,
18:10and if they have a theater background where they go
18:13to Broadway and they play in front of three to 500 people,
18:17hopefully a packed house on Broadway.
18:19We do these scenes that are supposed to be based
18:23on evoking emotion out of an audience
18:26in front of 10, 15, 20, 25,
18:2950,000 people live.
18:33Live. What a challenge.
18:36But you know, it goes back to me
18:40to Laurence Olivier doing Shakespeare in the park in London
18:44where he would do "Hamlet" on a Saturday
18:47and "King Lear" on a Sunday and never screw up the lines.
18:52And this is in a park in London where if he did screw up,
18:55it would be headline news in London.
18:58We do it on a global basis on worldwide television
19:01with probably the greatest distribution
19:04of any television show on the planet right now.
19:09And we don't blink about it.
19:11We all look forward to that challenge.
19:14That's an art form.
19:17Yes.
19:19And I think the greatest thing that ever happened to me is
19:24that I was born the single most unathletic human being
19:27that's ever been involved in this industry.
19:31I have no hips, flat feet, I'm splay-footed.
19:34And I'm Jewish and don't like to schlep.
19:37So I'm the last person that you want
19:40in a physical confrontation.
19:44And because of that, my,
19:49I'm sure I told you this when we were in the car together
19:51in 1990, by the way. '90, yes.
19:54I was gonna get there. 1990.
19:56But you know, the first bump I ever took in it,
20:00I mean, like when I was a kid,
20:01when I was a photographer, every now and then,
20:03like especially in White Plains
20:04because Scoland would put people up to it.
20:06You know, Don Muraco or Greg Valentine
20:09or Randy Orton's father would, you know,
20:12say, "Hey, kid, come here for a sec, get in the ring."
20:14And just literally just, you know,
20:15like just amateur wrestling. Stretch you.
20:18Yeah, but kind of never anything.
20:21Also, because often Sika would keep an eye on me,
20:24you know, and they're like, "Don't hurt the kid.
20:26We need the kid." You know, because I had to drive.
20:28(laughs) You had a purpose.
20:30So, yes. You had a purpose.
20:32And thank God I did, you know?
20:34But first real bump I ever took was from Bam Bam Bigelow.
20:39And I went down because I was breaking in as a manager,
20:42and I still hate that term to this day.
20:45And I went down to Larry Sharpe's monster factory,
20:49and he said, "Okay, you're gonna have to learn this one.
20:50This is called the hard way, this is when, you know,
20:52the manager stands on the apron and you hold the top rope.
20:54They push out the rope. They pull you in."
20:56And he pulled me in and I went up
20:57and I went straight down on my forehead,
20:59bam, and knocked myself out.
21:02It was like a bam, like a lawn dart.
21:04Big Show used to always call me the lawn dart
21:07'cause I'd always end up landing on my forehead no matter
21:08what you did with me.
21:09And I was like, "Oh, my God."
21:11Okay, so I was like, "Well, this is a dangerous business."
21:14So the second bump I ever took was my first match
21:18as a manager.
21:19And I was with a team called the Motor City Man.
21:21Oh, you remember the Motor City Man?
21:22Yeah. The Motor City Madman.
21:24And we were working against Afa and his nephew
21:29who was just breaking in, Kokina.
21:31Kokina. Rodney.
21:33Yeah. Yokozuna.
21:35Yeah. And I mean,
21:38literally just breaking in.
21:41And Afa says, "Son, you wanna take a bump tonight?"
21:44"Yes, Pops. Happy to take a bump."
21:46"Okay, after the match, we come, we run. You come at us.
21:50Backdrop. Take a backdrop."
21:51"Yes, Pops. Best backdrop in the business."
21:54Don't know what I'm, no idea what I'm doing.
21:56No training, nothing. Okay.
21:59"Son, don't boost. Don't boost, son."
22:02"Oh, no, Pops. I won't boost."
22:04Of course, I want to impress everybody.
22:06I'm gonna take the greatest backdrop in,
22:08you know, the old Ken Wayne backdrop, you know?
22:10Oh, wow. So here we go.
22:13Run in, here we go. I boost my feet at the top rope.
22:17Bam! Right down the back of my head.
22:19Knocked myself out.
22:21So first two bumps I ever took in this business,
22:24I learned what a dangerous business this is.
22:27Right. And there are people going
22:28out there doing this 100,
22:31150 times in a match every night,
22:35multiple nights a week,
22:36traveling down the road, problems at home.
22:39The dog is sick. The kid screwed up at school.
22:44Oh, my God, and then to concentrate
22:47on your own health inside the ring
22:50and to be able to do that,
22:52and in any one of those two bumps,
22:54I could have broken my neck. Mm-hm.
22:58And you look at, this is a game of micro-inches.
23:01Look at what happened to Droz. Yeah.
23:04And my respect
23:07and appreciation for those that do it
23:12and do it well,
23:13or at least do it safely for them
23:15and the person who's entrusting you with their health,
23:22I still marvel at it to this day.
23:25I still watch it with just respect and envy
23:30'cause I can't do that.
23:33And I have such respect for those that do
23:37'cause all I got to do is say my name
23:40Well, let's don't- and my guy's name.
23:42Let's don't undersell. And remind people
23:45that my client, Brock Lesnar,
23:48conquered the Undertaker's undefeated streak
23:50in WrestleMania. Yes. (chuckles)
23:53Yeah, yes. You do that well, by the way.
23:56Thank you. No, you don't undersell.
23:58No, there's an art,
24:02you know, all of it works together
24:04and your association with whoever you're representing.
24:07You meant, you just said a minute ago,
24:08you don't like the term manager?
24:10No. I mean, it's kind
24:11of old school, I guess, right?
24:12I mean...
24:15It just, when I broke in in 1987,
24:19I was told by everybody,
24:23"Be a commentator."
24:24Why? Oh, because a manager's a dead role.
24:27Everyone told me this.
24:29J.J. Dillon told it to me. Jim Cornett told me.
24:32And literally, I mean- He was still
24:34in the middle of his run. And he was still
24:36in the middle of his run, but he was saying,
24:38"Hey, you know," especially when we were pitted
24:40against each other, Cornett just said,
24:42"You know this is a dying role."
24:44It was the same thing. Dusty told me it was a dying role.
24:47I got a call from Vince when I went to,
24:50no, actually, first time he called me was when he saw me
24:53on ESPN when I was working for Vern.
24:56And he said, "Oh, goddamn it. What are you doing?"
24:58And I go, "Oh, I'm working for Vern now, you know?
25:00And I started with the phone gimmick."
25:03And he says, "Oh, well, you got to transition over
25:06to be a commentator or something or this,
25:09you know, that manager, it's a dying role.
25:12You know, it's gonna be beautiful women
25:15to accompany the men to the ring.
25:17And you know, one or two very, very old timers,
25:21you know, like when," and what was the example that he gave?
25:24"Like when Strangler Lewis was managing Lou Thesz,"
25:28which to hear that history from him was amazing,
25:32but it shook me because I was like,
25:34"Oh, my God, is it a dying role?"
25:36Jim Ross would tell me it's a...
25:37He also wanted me to become his commentator.
25:40Right. But everybody told me
25:41it was a dying role.
25:42So my goal early on was to change that role,
25:47was to evolve it into something else.
25:50You know, wrestlers weren't wrestlers, they were superstars.
25:54Right. Elevate the role,
25:55do something different with it,
25:57so I don't get compared to anybody else,
25:59so I can find my own niche in the business
26:02to where I can say I'm the best that's ever done that.
26:05Okay, well, Bobby Heaton was great at that
26:06and Jimmy Hart was great at that
26:08and J.J. Dylan and Lou Albano
26:10and Freddie Blassie and the Grand Wizard,
26:11they were great at that, but I mastered this.
26:13This is my role,
26:15and it's inspired by them, but it's not the same.
26:19So when I came back to being a manager,
26:23which was in the Dangerous Alliance,
26:27I asked to be the CEO of the Dangerous Alliance
26:30so that I wasn't labeled a manager 'cause I always figured,
26:33wow, that's the past.
26:36Let's not call it a manager
26:37because I'm just reminding people of a role
26:40that no longer exists.
26:41Mm-hm.
26:43Well, and you've always,
26:45like I remember when you mentioned it a minute ago,
26:47like we were riding up down the roads in 1990.
26:53But even back then,
26:54and you were my manager,
27:00me Mark.
27:03But you did, yeah, I always remember, 'cause you know,
27:05obviously I would, you know, we were both young then,
27:10but like I think you were obviously further along.
27:14You'd been in the business a few years longer than I had,
27:16so you had a little, obviously a lot more experience.
27:19But I remember the little things
27:21that you used to take care of.
27:23Like so it's kind of a...
27:28You almost take the approach as a, it's a shoot.
27:31Like you make things a lot easier on your guys.
27:37Like whoever you're with,
27:40there's, yes, there's the TV aspect,
27:41but you kind of go far beyond.
27:45Yeah. I feel like that.
27:47Like I've heard
27:48that you basically remove all real-world distractions
27:51from whoever you're working with, which is so amazing.
27:57Thank you.
27:59It's about, and thank you for remembering that.
28:05No one's gonna pay to hear me say,
28:08"Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Paul Heyman,"
28:10or back then, "My name is Paul E. Dangerously."
28:16Does it help? Yes.
28:18Does it enhance? Yes.
28:20Does it take it across the finish line? I sure hope so.
28:23But no one's gonna pay to hear that or to witness it,
28:28especially back then. Yeah.
28:29I mean now, you know,
28:30oh, last time you ever get to see him,
28:32maybe we'll fill up a bingo hall again.
28:35But besides that, it ain't gonna happen.
28:39We survive as an act
28:42on your ability to perform.
28:45So if my designation in our act
28:51is to just talk, okay, great.
28:53Then I'm just a performer and we don't have to gel
28:57and we don't have to like each other
28:58and we don't have to really give a shit.
29:01But if we look at each other and we say,
29:04"Yo, we're pretty good together."
29:06Right. There's some money here.
29:09There is a camaraderie that works behind the scenes
29:12and there's a flow that works on the camera.
29:16And I can tell what you're gonna do before you do it
29:20'cause I'm in sync with your rhythm
29:23and your understanding of the business,
29:25and that comes from being in the car
29:27and listening, you know, should I throw three punches?
29:29Should I throw fives? Should I throw five?
29:31Should I throw three?"
29:33And once we understand that together,
29:35my job is to make your performance the best that it can be.
29:40And if you walk into an arena and you go,
29:43"Man, I'm really hungry.
29:44Is there any food that I can get? How can I get food?"
29:47Now you're not thinking about your match.
29:49"Hey, you know, why are there no towels in my locker room?
29:53If I just had towels, I could take a shower,
29:55I could think about the match."
29:57My job is to make sure that you only think
30:01about the performance tonight.
30:03Wow. That's it.
30:04Let's go for greatness.
30:07Let's do something
30:08that other people are not competitive enough to do.
30:11Let's seek that,
30:16excuse the term, spiritually orgasmic moment
30:20that we walk away going, "Yo, that was (censored) great!"
30:24And no one else can do what we just did out there tonight.
30:28They can do their own thing.
30:29They can do something different.
30:31Maybe they do things that are better,
30:33but they can't duplicate what we did.
30:35We offered something special and we can be proud
30:39of our work tonight and overall of our body of work.
30:44If I don't take that position seriously,
30:47then I have the ability to take your chicken
30:50and rice will be here at 3:30 as you like it.
30:52Your towels are there so you can take a shower.
30:55There is the right shampoo.
30:58Hey, I made sure you have a toothbrush
30:59and toothpaste in the locker room.
31:02Don't worry about the rent-a-car. I got the rent-a-car.
31:04If you need this much sleep,
31:06don't worry about the rent-a-car.
31:07I'll get in before you. I'll pick you up when you land.
31:10And you like that kind of hotel? I'll book it for us.
31:13All you got to think about is being great.
31:16Right.
31:19And if it's with the right person,
31:23Mm-hm.
31:25Brock Lesnar, Roman Reigns, CM Punk,
31:30you, Steve Austin, if it's with the right, Rick Rude,
31:36if it's with the right person,
31:41Yeah. They'll remember. Yeah.
31:42there's no telling the greatness that can be achieved.
31:45And people can come at you in your life
31:51from multiple directions
31:54and say anything that they want about you.
31:57They can nitpick you to death.
31:59You know what they can't take away?
32:02The body of work that you put together
32:04that screams out greatness.
32:08They can't take that away from you. That's yours.
32:11You own that. You earned that.
32:14You worked your ass off the sacrifices you made
32:18to achieve that.
32:21If I can take something off your plate the day of a show,
32:25and back then we were doing five, six,
32:27seven shows a week. Sure. Yeah.
32:29But if I can take something off your plate
32:32so you can achieve that, look at the ride I'm on with you.
32:36Yeah.
32:38Is that where you learned that from?
32:41What's that?
32:42Doing all that stuff for me all the time.
32:44Wow. Really? Taking everything
32:45off my plate. (laughs) Wow.
32:47Somebody got to work with
32:48and I can't say much. Oh, no.
32:50What I would have done- I love being
32:52in the middle here. It's always,
32:54it's such a great spot. That's great advice.
32:56Dr. Heyman, family therapist.
32:59(Mark and Michelle laugh) So hello, darlings.
33:00Welcome to the show.
33:02Today, I have Mark and Michelle, both start with an M.
33:07We should look into this.
33:11Oh, boy, we just come off the rails. Here we go.
33:13(bell tolls)
33:15Are you ready to hold WWE history
33:18in the palm of your hand?
33:20Topps is bringing you closer to the action
33:22than ever before with WWE Topps NOW,
33:27highlighting the biggest matches and milestones
33:29from WWE shows and PLEs throughout the year.
33:33Topps NOW is enhancing the fan experience
33:36by connecting collectors to superstars
33:39and spectacles that ignite their passion.
33:42Featuring stunning event-exclusive photography,
33:45each card is made for the moment.
33:48And for some lucky collectors,
33:50the moment could be the pull of a lifetime.
33:52Along with serial numbered parallels,
33:55some Topps NOW releases offer a chance at rare short prints,
33:59superstar autographs, and even pieces of the mat, gear,
34:04or other items used during the featured match.
34:07So which moments will you collect?
34:09With each card only available for a limited time,
34:12you won't want to wait to begin your Topps NOW journey.
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34:27(bell tolls)
34:28Do you, I mean,
34:31your reputation and your legacy within the business,
34:34do you seek out,
34:36like obviously you've got to refill the stable now.
34:40Do you seek out or do you...
34:44Does Paul come to you and say, "Hey, what do you think?"
34:50How do you fill the void that a Brock Lesnar leaves now?
34:54I don't know if that's a void that can never be filled.
34:58I think now it's the art of reinvention again, you know?
35:02It's when, in 2020 when COVID hit
35:06and the decision was made corporately,
35:08we are gonna produce live television
35:10or live-to-tape television twice a week.
35:15Raw and SmackDown, here we go.
35:17And we're still gonna do
35:18what was then called pay-per-views, now premium live events.
35:22And Brock's contract wrapped up just
35:26as the whole world shut down,
35:29and Vince made the business decision,
35:31we got to take a break for a while.
35:32I'm not gonna just have Brock Lesnar wrestle
35:36in this cavernous atmosphere
35:39that ended up having a digital component,
35:41but we knew we were down for at least a year and who knows?
35:46Right.
35:47We didn't know when the world was gonna come out of this.
35:50And the opportunity arose at that time
35:54that Roman had taken so much time off.
35:57Right. And the decision was made
36:01for us to finally work together.
36:04And when I asked Vince his vision for it,
36:10he just said, "The big dog and you're his advocate."
36:14And the first thing I said was,
36:17"He can't be the big dog anymore.
36:19We've run with the big dog since 2012.
36:23He needs to evolve into something completely different,
36:26and I can't be his advocate.
36:29I was Brock Lesnar's advocate.
36:32I must be something different to this character."
36:36And the examples that I continuously gave were,
36:39and this is what sold Vince on it,
36:41was the Deadman, the American Badass.
36:45It has to be that shocking of a metamorphosis,
36:49and it has to make sense. Sure. Yeah.
36:51The Deadman grew into the American Badass
36:55because times had changed around him.
36:58The '90s had evolved,
37:00and the audience wanted more out of the Deadman
37:04to where the Deadman returned as the American Badass.
37:08And even though that's a seismic shift in character,
37:12you never alienated the Deadman.
37:15You incorporated him into an evolved character.
37:19Mm-hm. It's the same thing.
37:24It's a progression. It's a metamorphosis.
37:26It's a, here's what I have on my resume.
37:30And here's where I've been.
37:32And now here's where I'd like to take you next.
37:36And I need to wear a different suit.
37:38I need to wear different colors.
37:40I need to have a different scheme of things
37:43because that worked with Brock,
37:45but what worked with Brock did not work with Roman.
37:48Right, yeah. And what worked
37:50with Roman did not work with CM Punk.
37:52And what worked with CM Punk did not work with you
37:55or with Steve or with Rob Van Dam or anybody else
37:58that I've worked with.
37:59Everyone's an individual and we need to create
38:04and act like a marriage,
38:06like a professional marriage that I'm here to,
38:11if I understand my role right,
38:14I'm the supporting player, and I take great pride in that.
38:19A great supporting player makes the main character,
38:23and makes the main character in such a degree
38:25that the main character could not pull that off
38:28on their own, male or female.
38:30Yeah.
38:31Robert Duvall in "The Godfather" movies.
38:34Yeah.
38:36The greatest supporting actor I've ever seen.
38:39Amazing. Yeah. And made those movies.
38:42And this is what we're talking about.
38:43Look at the cast, Brando, De Niro, Pacino,
38:47and yet Robert Duvall was the glue
38:50and made everyone else around him look better.
38:53Yeah.
38:54And that's the role.
38:55So I don't know the next step
38:59because I have to look at the landscape.
39:02Sure. And see,
39:04ooh, let's invest our time here.
39:07Let's buy into this stock and grow it
39:12and watch it rise to the top.
39:14Are you taking applications?
39:15'Cause I would've given anything to work
39:19under your tutelage.
39:20I mean, my goodness.
39:22Well, thank you.
39:22He'll tell you it's not all it's cracked up to be.
39:24(Michelle laughs) No, but there's good
39:25and there's bad.
39:27Yeah.
39:29Mostly bad.
39:30No, no, no. It's not as much bad
39:31as Bruce Prichard.
39:32Right, we established that.
39:34Yeah, that's a whole nother topic, but no.
39:37This is kind of off topic, but I love Jalen Brunson.
39:41Love him to death, think he's an incredible player,
39:43but I don't know
39:46that he's earned the King of New York title.
39:50And I told Mark, honestly,
39:52I think you (laughs) She did.
39:55should be in the running for that.
39:56She hit me with this on the way over here.
39:57Does that make you a little hot?
39:58'Cause I mean, I don't know.
40:00I think you were, I think you- I think it was a compliment.
40:02That was a compliment. Yeah, I think-
40:03She thinks you're the King of New York.
40:04I do. I think you're, yeah, I think you're up there.
40:08Well, I am the king of New York.
40:09See, exactly. I knew it, I knew it, see?
40:16And when the guard for the New York Knicks
40:21in their initial babyface run
40:24in this decade steals my moniker,
40:28Thank you.
40:29at least he's stealing from the best.
40:31This is true. I mean, I wasn't gonna say.
40:33I was just ushered up hot about it, honestly.
40:36She's trying to stir up some stuff
40:37is what she's trying to do. I'm not trying
40:38to stir up anything, I think it's true.
40:40Uh-huh. I-
40:41No, no, no.
40:43She's definitely Team Heyman on that, but-
40:46I am. Yeah, I think she's trying
40:47to stir up some, you know, a little controversy here.
40:50I would never do that. Yeah, you know,
40:52he's on a pretty good run right now.
40:53He is. Well, they have great writers.
40:55(Mark and Michelle laughing)
40:59They do. They do.
41:01That's what I've heard. They get to win the title,
41:03but not in the garden so that next year
41:06when they make it to the finals,
41:08then those garden tickets can be even higher.
41:10Hey. Mm-hm. You can see them win.
41:12They still haven't won it at Madison Square Garden.
41:16They mopped a floor with San Antonio.
41:21Spurs, yeah. Wow.
41:22Glad I got that one right.
41:24They mopped the floor with San, oh, wait.
41:26Oh, okay. There you go, San Antonio.
41:28Oh, yeah, yeah. My compliments.
41:29It was a hell of a season.
41:32They mop the floor with San Antonio,
41:34and then all of a sudden,
41:36they get to the garden and the heels inch out of victory.
41:40The guy at the free throw line who had a 100% average
41:43or near 100% average in free throws, all of a sudden,
41:46he misses at the most critical point.
41:48Ah. And not only in the series,
41:50but in his entire career.
41:52I mean, my God.
41:55Their creative team is on, my compliments, NBA.
42:00Your writing team is stellar.
42:03What a booking committee they got.
42:07And this is why he's king, folks.
42:08Wrestling cynic right here that just screams.
42:12A true promoter. A true promoter, man.
42:19When you took over ECW, what was it?
42:21Eastern, what was it?
42:22It was Eastern Championship Wrestling.
42:24Eastern Championship Wrestling.
42:25So talking about a metamorphosis,
42:29you go into, you know, Extreme Championship Wrestling.
42:36Do you think that's where the business, obviously,
42:38that's where you though the business needed to go,
42:40but did you have that vision for a while
42:43or you just kind of adapted with the times
42:45as you started rebranding that?
42:49Kind of both.
42:52I thought in '91,
42:56'92 that the business was evolving to the point
43:00where it needed to be more visceral.
43:04It needed to be more 18 to 34 male demographic.
43:09It had gotten too kiddy-friendly
43:12and had lost a core audience.
43:15And in chasing the action figures
43:21and the Halloween costumes,
43:23and huge market, but it alienated
43:30that 18 to 34 male demographic.
43:32It just, it wasn't cool. It wasn't on the cutting edge.
43:36It had become very conservative of an industry,
43:41and this is not a conservative art form.
43:44It's a very liberal art form. I'm not talking politically.
43:47Yeah. I'm talking just in terms
43:49of it's progressive.
43:50It is young, but not that young.
43:53And it always has to move forward,
43:55and it always really needs to be mindful
43:57of the pop culture that's out there.
44:01The culture had become even more so than in 1985
44:07when WWE did the MTV relationship with Cyndi Lauper
44:12and Hulk Hogan and Mr. T and Roddy Piper.
44:17It had become very MTV-oriented,
44:20and not just the network MTV,
44:23but the entire concept of that style television.
44:27It had become trash TV. Everything was going extreme.
44:33And no one really picked that up as a buzzword yet.
44:36And then that wasn't my original intent
44:38of the name of the company
44:41when I first took over the creative end of it.
44:43I just knew I had to get out of the word Eastern.
44:45It was too limited. Yeah.
44:47It was narrow casting. Yeah.
44:49And I wanted to broadcast. Yes.
44:52But if hip-hop was right
44:57on the precipice of breaking through,
44:59and back then it was only on "Yo! MTV Raps",
45:03unless Run-DMC would do something with Aerosmith
45:06because, you know, Aerosmith, you know,
45:08oh, we endorsed these hip-hop guys and well,
45:11you know, come on, fellas.
45:12Well, we'll make you stars.
45:14Right.
45:16And MC Lyte was just the hottest female rapper
45:18in the world at the time.
45:19Roughneck could not get played on MTV except
45:22on "Yo! MTV Rap".
45:24Onyx was just on fire.
45:26Wu-Tang Clan was coming out of the gates.
45:29NWA, (indistinct).
45:33You just look at all the different hip-hop artists
45:35that were just breaking through in that community,
45:39but could not get any kind of widestream,
45:43mainstream cultural pickup, but they were going to.
45:48And the entire landscape
45:52of what the youth were watching was changing.
45:56Those dance shows
45:57on MTV were damn near pornographic.
46:02Yeah. All they did was, you know,
46:03crotch shots and upskirts,
46:05and this is four o'clock in the afternoon.
46:08And you turn on MTV and it's like, whoa.
46:12Is this even appropriate to watch?
46:16So I could tell the culture was shifting.
46:20And also, I was limited
46:23in the quality of workmanship I was going to be able to lure
46:30into ECW because that type of classic,
46:35"Okay, here's an arm bow.
46:36We're gonna work the arm, gonna work the arm,
46:37gonna work the arm, gonna work the arm.
46:39Okay, gonna get a submission on the arm."
46:41You know, the old workmanship,
46:45those guys were all signed or they were signed to Japan.
46:49So I had to make something with smoke and mirrors.
46:55And I don't want to say chicken salad at a chicken ship
46:57because what the guys did was very impressive
47:00in the opportunity that they were given.
47:03But I had to build characters that were not like the ones
47:06that you were gonna see in WWE or WCW,
47:09and I could never match the production budget.
47:12So I had to give something that felt illegal.
47:16Right. And in doing so,
47:18and in using the music,
47:20and in giving these down
47:25to street level, but still larger than life characters,
47:30we found an audience
47:33that would say, "That's cool.
47:36Right. Hey, I understand that.
47:38Hey, that speaks to me.
47:40Hey, that's my generation.
47:43And therefore, the disruption
47:48of the industry itself was also born
47:52out of just the fact that we needed to find something
47:55that would let us survive based on the fact
47:58that the others couldn't do it
48:01or were unwilling to do it
48:03or it was not politically correct to do it
48:05or sponsors and advertisers would never be
48:08on board with it."
48:09Sure. Yeah.
48:11Yeah. It's amazing.
48:13I mean,
48:16it's a major revolution within our industry.
48:20It was so out of the box. It was, you know,
48:24kind of going through it,
48:25like when you're in a company or in a different company
48:27and you're like, "Man, what the hell are these guys doing?
48:30Right? This is not what we do."
48:32Right. And you know,
48:33actually it ended up being sheer brilliance because it did.
48:37It gave the alienated a place to feel,
48:44you know, this is my wrestling.
48:48Yeah. This is where I'm at.
48:52And I say this with deep respect for what we did.
48:56It's a gang or a cult mentality.
48:58This is my family. These people accept me.
49:02I'm accepted here. Right.
49:04How I envision pro wrestling to be is accepted here.
49:08It's celebrated here. Oh, these are my people.
49:11The Sandman is my guy.
49:14Raven is my guy. Rob Van Dam is my guy.
49:18Taz is my guy.
49:20The Public Enemy, the Dudley Boyz, these are my guys.
49:25I identify with them. They identify with me.
49:28You know, the first time I put Public Enemy
49:33on the air, I had Ted Petty,
49:36Rocco Rock say, "We are the first generation
49:39of American children more afraid of living than dying,"
49:43which I stole from Newsweek Magazine
49:47'cause there was an essay in Newsweek and that was the line.
49:50And I was like, "That's brilliant. We have to use that."
49:53And I wanted a hoodie tag team.
49:57And Teddy was 40, 41 years old.
50:00And Johnny was a Cajun
50:04from Lake Charles, Louisiana.
50:06You know, we're building him out of South Central LA.
50:09Right. Yeah. You know?
50:11And you know, "Here's Johnny Grunge talking like this."
50:14And yet people bought into it 'cause number one,
50:16they didn't know who these two guys were,
50:18'cause Teddy had always worked under a mask.
50:20And Johnny had never been seen before
50:23'cause he didn't really wrestle
50:24on that many independents in the north.
50:27So when we busted him out that way
50:29and we gave them lines like that,
50:33that people identifying with, you know, again,
50:35this was also the emergence of Grunge.
50:39So this was the disenfranchised hot,
50:41you know, 17, 18, 19 and beyond.
50:45So you know, that age group especially was looking
50:49for an identity.
50:52And while in music,
50:53they found it through Nirvana and Pearl Jam and Soundgarden
50:56and Radiohead and Stone Temple Pilots.
50:59In wrestling, they found it through us.
51:02'cause we were the home for those
51:04who were not welcome elsewhere.
51:06Was there ever any talk of you going to ECW
51:10to work with anybody?
51:12Not, maybe at one, not until maybe the invade.
51:15I don't know. Towards the end.
51:16Toward the end. Towards the end,
51:18we just would've been a guest appearance,
51:19but Vince wasn't letting you out of his sight.
51:22No, (laughs) he kept pretty tight reins.
51:24And he certainly didn't want me in your ear.
51:27(all laughing)
51:31When we did the Monday night Raw thing in 1997
51:33to promote our first pay-per-view,
51:35that was the first thing I noticed
51:37that there was always someone
51:38like just watching everybody I was talking to.
51:42Yeah, I get that now. I think you said
51:43that yesterday. (all laughing)
51:46I got it all day yesterday while I was at the arena,
51:48people, "Why is he talking to talent?"
51:50Uh-huh. Literally.
51:52That's so funny. There are options.
51:54(all laughing)
51:56But it's funny.
51:59There was a ribbing on the square a lot yesterday,
52:02but everybody would get a little closer to see
52:05what I was saying to different talent.
52:06I was like, "We're all under the same umbrella here."
52:09Wow. It's a family deal here.
52:13My father used to say,
52:14"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean
52:15the whole world's not against you."
52:17(chuckles) Yeah.
52:20I like that.
52:22That's good. And in this industry,
52:24sometimes it's an accurate state of mind.
52:25Boy, is it? Oh, 1,000%.
52:27(bell tolls)
52:29You know, on this show,
52:31we talk a lot about the grind.
52:32The history and what it took to build a legacy
52:35in this business.
52:36Guys like Austin, Rock, Cena,
52:39and obviously the women
52:41who completely revolutionized the division.
52:43Oh, thanks, babe.
52:45Nice of you to notice. But you're right.
52:47The history of WWE is unmatched.
52:49And for the fans who live through those eras with us,
52:51that nostalgia is incredibly powerful.
52:54It really is.
52:55And if you want to represent that history,
52:57WWE Shop and Fanatics have the ultimate collection
53:01of official WWE Legends merchandise.
53:04They really do.
53:05They have everything from classic graphic tees and hoodies
53:08to retro jackets and title belts.
53:10And honestly, the women's fits
53:11and styles they have now, they're amazing.
53:14I went on Fanatics the other day
53:15and the selection's massive.
53:17You can find gear for all the greats,
53:18including, of course, the Undertaker.
53:21Grab your legend's gear at WWE Shop
53:24and Fanatics today.
53:26(bell tolls)
53:28So we discussed, you know,
53:29we talked about your role
53:33as far as onscreen talent.
53:36You've kind of got a, I don't know.
53:38Is it an unspoken role, I guess?
53:42Unspecified. Unspecified.
53:44Consulary. Freelance. Yeah.
53:46Well, you mentioned Robert Duvall
53:47and "The Godfather" the other, it really, it sparked a...
53:50Like you've been referred to as Paul's consulary now.
53:55Well, that's how he described it.
53:58He said that, yeah. He put it, you know,
54:00they came to me on the Hall of Fame and you know,
54:03I'm sure they asked you the same thing,
54:07"What do you want on the ring?"
54:08Right.
54:09And I, "Whatever you want to put on the ring, you know?
54:14Surprise me. I don't know."
54:17I'm kind of uncomfortable.
54:20"Well, put this on, you know, put GOAT.
54:23Yeah, yeah. Good looking, you know?
54:25And you deserve a raise," you know?
54:30So I just said, "Whatever Paul wants."
54:33You know, and I never talked about it publicly
54:38till he did it his own Hall of Fame introduction.
54:41But he put the word consigliere on it,
54:43which really moved me when I saw it.
54:46It just, it caught me off guard.
54:50You know the old expression,
54:51"I serve at the pleasure of the chairman,
54:52I serve at the pleasure of the president."
54:54I serve at the pleasure of the chief content officer.
54:57So if he sees somebody and he says,
55:02"They got to break through on their promos.
55:05They're in their own way. They're in their own head.
55:07Hey, they're an A, but they need to be an A+++.
55:10Hey, they're a C, they need to be an A.
55:13Whatever it is, you know, find it in them.
55:17Help pull it out of them." Yeah.
55:19That becomes my assignment.
55:21Now sometimes that's a one-day process.
55:23Sometimes that becomes a life mission.
55:27It all depends on the talent.
55:28It all depends on their openness
55:31to reach inside and pull it out of themselves,
55:37how much they like working with me, if they do at all.
55:41And sometimes it's just a quick thing.
55:44"Help this person through this promo today."
55:46And sometimes it's, "Make that your project."
55:48Okay.
55:50And I love, love working
55:56with really, really talented people that want to go
56:01that next step, that want to take it even further.
56:06It's like the old thing about Michael Jordan showing up
56:09at five o'clock for a seven o'clock practice.
56:12Why?
56:13Because there's other people that want
56:14to become Michael Jordan. Yep.
56:16And he ain't gonna let them. Yep.
56:18So if someone's willing to put in that extra time.
56:22When Roman and I first got put together,
56:26we would talk on the phone,
56:28and at times I'd just out of the blue in the middle
56:32of a conversation talking about, you know,
56:34just how does your lawn look today?
56:35Just completely off topic.
56:37I'd say, "What'd you have for breakfast today?"
56:40"Oh, you know, this many eggs
56:42and you know, a bowl of oatmeal or whatever.
56:44"Great. What did the Tribal Chief have?"
56:48And I'd want him to talk to me as the Tribal Chief
56:51and not just for, you know, a promo, like for five minutes.
56:55Talk to me for a while.
56:56Spend a half hour on the phone with me as the Tribal Chief.
56:59Do small talk with me as the Tribal Chief.
57:02Did the Tribal Chief take his kids to school today?
57:05Did the Tribal Chief pick his kids up from school today?
57:08What would that conversation like?
57:10So that just he learns how to walk in the skin
57:15of that character so much that he's just
57:18as comfortable being the Tribal Chief Roman Reigns
57:22as he is being Joe Anoa'i. Yeah.
57:24And once you have that comfort level
57:29of understanding who that person is,
57:34then you can switch it on
57:36and hopefully afterwards switch it off,
57:40but that you could switch it on in your pursuit of greatness
57:43'cause you truly understand who that character is.
57:48Yeah.
57:49If you walk and go, "Oh, I wouldn't say that, you know.
57:53I don't know." Okay, why wouldn't you say it?
57:55What would you say? What would your character say?
57:58How would your character approach it?
57:59What's the new layer of your character that we can reveal
58:04because this is a new situation for the character to be in?
58:09And those are the things that I look for
58:11when I work with the talent.
58:14So if you give me a Royce Keys, for example,
58:19who, despite the fact that he's been in the business for 15,
58:2320 years, has no idea how truly talented he truly is.
58:27Right. Yeah. Or you give me
58:28a Je'Von Evans
58:32or you give me Jade Cargill or even Charlotte Flair,
58:38who's been in the business since birth.
58:43And you look at it from a different perspective
58:45and you force that person
58:46to look at it from a different perspective,
58:49it opens up a whole new light for them
58:53in their pursuit of something that goes back to walking away
58:57with that spiritually orgasmic feeling of,
59:00"I did something great.
59:01I did something special.".
59:03So long answer to your short question,
59:06forgive me for that, please, No.
59:08and thank you, is I'm here to help
59:13in whatever assists the cause of the promotion
59:18to move forward.
59:19Yeah.
59:22You know, as you were talking and I was thinking of Roman,
59:25like he, you know, I've always,
59:28people will always come to me, "Man, you live the character.
59:31You live the gimmick."
59:32He truly, anytime that I see him,
59:36I had a moment with him at Fanatics Fest.
59:38We ran into each other.
59:40Real brief, real quick,
59:42but he conducts himself at all times
59:46as the Tribal Chief now. Yes.
59:49You know, and I don't think people understand it,
59:51and that's what makes it so good because it comes off now.
59:54It's so amazingly genuine that he thinks he is,
59:59and which he is, I guess.
1:00:02But it's funny when you started talking about the,
1:00:05talk to me, how did the Tribal Chief take his kids today?
1:00:09And it's obviously paid off because, you know,
1:00:12I saw him do an interview.
1:00:14I don't remember who it was that was interviewing him,
1:00:17but you know, he was just, basically he was like,
1:00:19"Yeah, you know, I am this guy."
1:00:23And it was just like, wow, that's living your character.
1:00:27Yeah. That's living,
1:00:28which not many people do.
1:00:30That's living your character in 2026.
1:00:33Yes. It's the same thing
1:00:34that I did.
1:00:35It's exactly the same thing.
1:00:36It's a different presentation, obviously.
1:00:38Yeah.
1:00:39But he's doing it in just an incredible way.
1:00:44And just funny, you know,
1:00:46it dawned on me as I was watching this interview
1:00:48and then listening to you just then,
1:00:50it's just like, it all makes perfect sense.
1:00:52And so, you know, well done, I mean, it really is,
1:00:58to be able to prompt people to do things like that and...
1:01:03It's close to home for him though.
1:01:04Yeah. It's super close.
1:01:06He is the head of his table.
1:01:10He is the Tribal Chief of that family.
1:01:13He legitimately is, and there always was.
1:01:16You know, for a while, it was Afa and Sika together.
1:01:20Right.
1:01:21And Afa would handle the business and Sika was the muscle.
1:01:25And then Rodney stepped up. Rodney, yeah.
1:01:28You know? And for a while, it was Junior.
1:01:31Junior was the undisputed head of that family
1:01:33for a long time.
1:01:35And it was time for Joe, you know, and then you know this.
1:01:39The head of that family takes care of a lot
1:01:42of people in that family.
1:01:44There's a lot of people dependent
1:01:47on the head of that family, and that's Joe.
1:01:50And so the Tribal Chief was something that we came up with
1:01:55because he was and he is.
1:01:59And to me, that was very easy to fall into
1:02:05as his, at first special counsel,
1:02:07and then he named me the Wise Man.
1:02:09But it was very easy to fall into that
1:02:11because I looked at him like he was my Tribal Chief,
1:02:16because he conducted himself like a Tribal Chief.
1:02:20He aspired not only to live the character,
1:02:25but he admired the character
1:02:29and the traits of that character
1:02:31and the benefits that that character brought himself,
1:02:34his wife, his children,
1:02:36and the rest of his family to the point
1:02:38where he's Joe Anoa'i looked
1:02:40at Roman Reigns the Tribal Chief and said,
1:02:44"I need to be more like him.
1:02:47That guy is worthy of admiration
1:02:50and worthy of the respect that I want bestowed upon me."
1:02:55And he conducts himself like that.
1:02:56Yeah. He is the Tribal Chief.
1:02:58Yeah. Yeah.
1:03:00It's funny, you see things and you see every day, but you,
1:03:04like sometimes I get disconnected and then I have a moment.
1:03:09And it was strange,
1:03:10it was a podcast or an interview he was doing at Fanatics.
1:03:13And it really hit me like, "Wow," you know?
1:03:17He's doing what you did in a way,
1:03:20in a time where it's incredibly hard.
1:03:24I don't know if it's incredibly hard.
1:03:25It's just it takes an incredible amount of dedication.
1:03:29Yes.
1:03:30I would say it's hard too,
1:03:32but it's hard because probably something y'all both agree
1:03:35on is that so much is given away.
1:03:37So many phones and so many, Well, I think that's okay.
1:03:39you know? That's exactly my point
1:03:41where I was going,
1:03:43in an era where people are only these things on TV.
1:03:49You know, that was kind of my, I mean,
1:03:50obviously it was a Fanatics interview,
1:03:52but he was still where most other people
1:03:56that were there are their alter egos
1:04:00or are not their alter egos.
1:04:01They're being themselves.
1:04:03Yeah.
1:04:04He was being the Tribal Chief, Roman Reigns.
1:04:08And it jumped out to me like, dude, this is...
1:04:12It gave me a different,
1:04:13it gave me a whole nother respect for him
1:04:15because it dawned, like I said, it dawned on me like,
1:04:17"Dude, that's old school being applied
1:04:22in 2026 in the new school."
1:04:26Again, I was, it's funny because I am,
1:04:29sometimes I do get a little disconnected from,
1:04:32I have to at this point, but it was fun for me.
1:04:35It felt good, it felt good when it,
1:04:37you know, when it hit me, I was like, "Damn, okay.
1:04:40I see what you're doing there."
1:04:41Yeah, well, he's rooted in the fundamentals
1:04:44Yeah. of the industry.
1:04:46And of course, he was raised that way.
1:04:48Yeah.
1:04:49So he has deep respect for it.
1:04:52New school doesn't mean on shit on the old school.
1:04:56New school means take, here's just an example, okay?
1:05:00And I use this with young talent all the time.
1:05:05When I was a kid,
1:05:06I'm talking about when I was 15 years old
1:05:07in the garden locker room, the old timers, you know,
1:05:12the Bob Backlunds and the Arnold Skaalands,
1:05:15the Gorilla Monsoons, the Angelo Moscas,
1:05:19you know, the Don Muracos and Greg Valentines and Bob Ortons
1:05:23and Albano and Blassie and the Grand Wizard.
1:05:26They all had an interesting philosophy when it came
1:05:29to babyfaces and heels.
1:05:32The heel settles into the heat,
1:05:37so the babyface can blow the comeback,
1:05:41so the heel stops the movement
1:05:45because movement is exciting
1:05:47and people will cheer the movement.
1:05:50And if you stop, if you demonstrate the hero, the babyface,
1:05:55the protagonist is moving and it's exciting
1:05:58and it's fun to watch and, "Oh, I really, they're looking.
1:06:00Oh, man, that's a cool move.
1:06:02That's wonderful. Oh, my God, I'm really into this guy!"
1:06:05And then the heel takes it away from you, holds him down,
1:06:09and gets the, you know, the trapezius lock
1:06:12or whatever with the ice pick.
1:06:13Ice pick. Yeah. Ice pick.
1:06:16Remember Heidenreich with the ice pick?
1:06:17I do. Heidenreich would,
1:06:20we're going off on a real tangent here.
1:06:22Heidenreich would grab an ice pick
1:06:23and he hated doing the ice pick.
1:06:25He hated it, but for some reason,
1:06:27Arn Anderson would tell him,
1:06:28"Hey, you got to do the ice pick, kid."
1:06:30And he, "So why? Why do I need to do the ice pick?"
1:06:33And Arn Anderson said,
1:06:34"Because it cuts off the carotid artery."
1:06:36(Michelle laughs) So he would grab somebody
1:06:38in the ice pick and go, "I got him in the ice pick!
1:06:42It cuts off the carotid artery!"
1:06:44And he's yelling it to the crowd.
1:06:47Like, "It's cutting off the carotid artery!
1:06:49I got him on the ice pick!"
1:06:51Like, oh, my God.
1:06:52Do you know he was in my first match ever?
1:06:56Oh, my God. A tag match with Dawn Marie
1:06:58and him and myself and Big Show, yeah.
1:07:00Damn it, Paul. (Michelle laughs)
1:07:04So, but that was the thing. You settle into the heat.
1:07:09Oh. So the heel, the villain,
1:07:11the antagonist stops the excitement, ruins your good time,
1:07:16gives you the match that you didn't want to see,
1:07:19and holds down my hero.
1:07:22He settles, settles into the heat,
1:07:26so that then when the babyface starts to come up
1:07:29and the crowd's going, "Yeah, yeah, come on, come up.
1:07:31Come on, give me some (censored) move in here.
1:07:32This is boring as shit," right?
1:07:34And the babyface comes up and the crowd is with it.
1:07:37And he tells the crowd, "I hear you.
1:07:38Okay, give me more, give me more."
1:07:40And they're giving him more.
1:07:41And he comes up for that movement. He blows his comeback.
1:07:45That still applies today.
1:07:47Right. That's old school.
1:07:50Start a match, throw a punch, break your hand.
1:07:56Have to keep the hand tight for the entire match.
1:08:00Here we go. The opponent is working on you.
1:08:03You're coming back with kicks and left jabs and everything
1:08:06to protect the right hand.
1:08:08Yeah. And there in the finish
1:08:09of the match, you finally have the opponent dead to rights.
1:08:12You forget that one moment. You come off the ropes.
1:08:15Bam! Oh, God, my hand!
1:08:18Boom, they grab you in a wrist lock
1:08:19or because you backed up from your own punch,
1:08:22they take you down and score a one, two, three.
1:08:24Old-school philosophy. Just tell it in a new light.
1:08:29Tell that story something different.
1:08:31Don't use the ice pick to hold somebody down.
1:08:34Use something new. Use something out of UFC.
1:08:38Yeah. Use something that
1:08:40hasn't been, that evolves, Evolves.
1:08:43that elevates, that upgrades,
1:08:44that is inspired by the past,
1:08:46Yeah. but now brings it forward.
1:08:49New twist. And so if you come in
1:08:53with just all new ideas
1:08:56and have no knowledge of the old school,
1:08:58you won't make it on top.
1:08:59No. There's no way.
1:09:00You might have a flash on top 'cause you're so different,
1:09:05'cause you're so out of whack.
1:09:07But the fundamentals of the emotion that is generated
1:09:12by this industry remains the same.
1:09:15The manner in which we tell the story changes.
1:09:18Yes. Yeah, it changes with the times, obviously.
1:09:21But it's, yeah, you're right.
1:09:22Everything's rooted in, you know,
1:09:25it's all in storytelling and how you tell it.
1:09:27Yeah.
1:09:31Well, I think I'm gonna ask because we're kind of on,
1:09:33I think on the same page with this.
1:09:39We give too much up today?
1:09:41Oh. Yes, even here right now.
1:09:44Yeah. No, and I do.
1:09:46And I appreciate it, but as these guys will tell you,
1:09:51my crew's like, I struggle to do interviews anymore
1:09:55because I don't like to discuss out of pocket.
1:09:58I'm just too old school to do it
1:09:59and I fall in the same deal.
1:10:00Like you can't talk without giving some of it up.
1:10:05And it's one thing, I think,
1:10:07to be talking about older things,
1:10:09but I think we give things up nowadays that are just,
1:10:13the curtain has just been not only opened, pulled down.
1:10:17I think it makes our product
1:10:20so much harder to deliver.
1:10:24Does that make sense? Yes. Yeah.
1:10:28When this airs, I will kick myself
1:10:30for saying the words of babyface and heel.
1:10:33Yeah. I'll hate it.
1:10:33And it's the same thing, it's the old thing,
1:10:37the train is leaving the station.
1:10:38Yeah.
1:10:39Now that train is leaving with or without you.
1:10:43It's going, Yep.
1:10:44and either you're on that train or you're not.
1:10:48And if you're not,
1:10:49everybody else on that train is going
1:10:51to the next WrestleMania, the WrestleMania after that,
1:10:54the WrestleMania after that.
1:10:55But you're not because you're not on the train.
1:10:58So true. And I don't want
1:11:00to just be a passenger on these trains.
1:11:02I want to be one of the conductors.
1:11:05I want to be one of the people that's on the staff
1:11:07that makes that train go.
1:11:09So I have to be on the train.
1:11:11And this, all of this unreal podcast,
1:11:16open discussion of the art form in our business is part
1:11:19of the modern communication that we offer our audience
1:11:24in order to hopefully build a better appreciation for.
1:11:29I don't think it's just merely an expose. I don't.
1:11:34That would be too
1:11:39embedded in my own consciousness about it,
1:11:42Right. too protective
1:11:44of an industry that has loosened the grip.
1:11:48So you know, "Oh, this just exposes everything."
1:11:51Nah, that's not exactly it.
1:11:53There are people that learn from podcasts.
1:11:56There are people that learn an appreciation
1:11:59for the art form that we do.
1:12:02And in this modern communication,
1:12:04it's gonna happen anyway.
1:12:06Right. If you were to storm off
1:12:07because we're exposing the business right now,
1:12:10someone else will be in that chair next week
1:12:13and the train will just move on without us.
1:12:16Yeah. So we have
1:12:18to be accepting of it, whether we like it or not,
1:12:22and just have to try to find a way
1:12:25to exploit that platform, like social media.
1:12:28When the first time social media came out, it's like, "Well,
1:12:31I don't want to put pictures of my children on there.
1:12:33I don't want to put pictures of my wife
1:12:35or my husband on there.
1:12:36I don't want to talk about my, I want to stay in character."
1:12:39So stay in character.
1:12:41So make your social media stay in character.
1:12:44But it's a platform and it's out there.
1:12:46And it's there for you to not only appease the audience
1:12:49that you have, but expand from that base.
1:12:52So if you learn how to exploit it,
1:12:54you can get someone new interested in you, your character,
1:12:57your matches, your story, et cetera.
1:12:59Yeah. And I think on some level,
1:13:01it gives people just an insider look at what people,
1:13:07that we are humans,
1:13:08that we are people that go through things,
1:13:10and that there are people that, you know,
1:13:12may have had a death in the family and go out and work,
1:13:14Right. or may have had,
1:13:15and I think that gives a new level of respect
1:13:17in some ways as well for them to see that, you know,
1:13:20we have to perform,
1:13:22whether you feel like performing that night or not or...
1:13:24So I do like that aspect of it.
1:13:27Yeah, it's, you know, and also it's the platform.
1:13:31Yeah. You know?
1:13:32It's just, it's the platform.
1:13:33You know, now today it's, you know,
1:13:35it's microdramas and it's streaming.
1:13:38And can you imagine?
1:13:39So it's like, you know,
1:13:40if anybody watches the movie "Boogie Nights",
1:13:42"Boogie Nights" is so prophetic in the changing
1:13:47of an industry, moving on to something else,
1:13:51and everybody that goes along with it is gonna profit
1:13:54and those who don't become the dinosaurs.
1:13:57Right. You know?
1:13:58And this is a new platform.
1:14:02Can you imagine an actor or an actress today
1:14:04or a director saying,
1:14:05"Huh, my movies are only shown in movie theaters."
1:14:09Really? So Paramount Plus doesn't exist?
1:14:12Netflix doesn't exist? Peacock doesn't exist?
1:14:17All these, YouTube.
1:14:19YouTube is the largest platform in the world today.
1:14:23If you shoot a movie on a reasonable budget
1:14:25and you release it on YouTube,
1:14:26you can make a very decent profit and build a reputation.
1:14:30All the hot, young directors this year come off
1:14:34of doing YouTube shorts,
1:14:36YouTube verticals or YouTube movies.
1:14:39All of them. All the hot, young directors today.
1:14:41It's a new platform,
1:14:43and therefore, it's a new method of storytelling.
1:14:45No matter what we're doing here, this is storytelling.
1:14:49Sure.
1:14:51It's just a different way than we're used to.
1:14:53Right. But then again,
1:14:55I mean, I'm sure you remember the days when,
1:14:56you know, when Luthez or one of the older guys
1:15:01from a previous generation would come and see.
1:15:03Just look at the way Harley used to look
1:15:06at where the product had evolved into.
1:15:07For sure. Yeah, yeah, for that, yeah.
1:15:09And Harley would just look, you know,
1:15:11"What are you doing out there," you know?
1:15:13"Well, Harley, you know,
1:15:14this and the audience really likes when I do that.
1:15:17"Good for them," you know?
1:15:19It's like, oh, okay.
1:15:21You know, just the way that, you know.
1:15:23So you doing this gives you not only access
1:15:29to a whole new audience today,
1:15:32but gives that audience access to you and your history
1:15:36and your stories and your storylines.
1:15:41So it not only promotes your body of work.
1:15:45It's again, it's from Deadman,
1:15:48to American Badass to now it's Mark.
1:15:51Right. And Mark and Michelle.
1:15:52And here's our form of communication.
1:15:55Here's your distribution. Here's your platform.
1:15:58Right.
1:16:00Well, I still don't like it.
1:16:02(Mark laughs) I'm with you.
1:16:05But I want to be on- You want to be on the train.
1:16:07I want to be on that train
1:16:08and I want to be one of the conductors
1:16:09because it will leave without me.
1:16:11Yeah, yeah. I think I want to be on the train.
1:16:14I just don't think I want to go all the way to the end.
1:16:17(Mark laughs) You're here for the journey.
1:16:20I'm here for a little bit of the journey.
1:16:21Oh. Yeah.
1:16:22My journey, I mean, as our journey know.
1:16:24We're a lot closer to the destination
1:16:26than we are before. Yes, we're a lot closer to.
1:16:28Yes, we are much closer to- 1965.
1:16:31Wow. Yeah. Full circle.
1:16:33Yeah. It is a full circle moment, man.
1:16:35Hey, I know you got, you know, you got things to do.
1:16:38I just want to thank you for making time for us.
1:16:40This has been fun for me.
1:16:43So much history and just,
1:16:45I love listening to you talk about the wrestling business
1:16:49because again, that passion comes out.
1:16:52And I hope you evolve
1:16:56into that next role and the next guy comes along.
1:17:00You have people in, I mean, I won't pin you down on a name,
1:17:03but do you have people in your mind that you think might?
1:17:07Hang on.
1:17:08I was thinking, have this guy in mind.
1:17:11Yeah? For one more match.
1:17:13Oh, good. All right, folks.
1:17:15Hey! This podcast
1:17:17was brought to you...
1:17:19Bro. I didn't have one more match on my last match.
1:17:22(Paul and Michelle laugh)
1:17:25I got new parts. I'm doing all right, man.
1:17:28Well? Yeah, no.
1:17:30There you go. You even did that
1:17:32in Vince's voice.
1:17:33God. Goddamn, you look good.
1:17:35The money! The money. You got one more.
1:17:39Dammit.
1:17:41Man up, come on. (Paul laughing)
1:17:44Think about the boys.
1:17:45Oh, my God.
1:17:48Paul, thank you, man.
1:17:49I really appreciate you making time for us.
1:17:51Yes, thank you. Always a pleasure.
1:17:52Thank you, thank you, thank you.
1:17:53No matter what you're doing,
1:17:55I swear you're the most entertaining persona on TV.
1:17:58It doesn't matter what you're doing, doesn't matter Raw,
1:18:00SmackDown, whatever, PLE,
1:18:02whether you're on the Sneaker show,
1:18:04whatever that was called.
1:18:05Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
1:18:06Yeah, I'm sorry. Go ahead.
1:18:09The Sneaker show, what did you end up getting, man?
1:18:11Like I've never seen you in anything
1:18:13but leather dress shoes. Yes, sir.
1:18:15Like you get you some Jordans? What'd you get?
1:18:17Wait, look, I saw the clip.
1:18:18He didn't get him some shoes because...
1:18:21Well, you may not know this,
1:18:22but we have two things in common
1:18:23'cause I saw it on the show.
1:18:26What?
1:18:27We don't wear sneakers and we don't wear draws.
1:18:30He said- Do we need to tell people
1:18:32that you don't wear- Just saying, he said...
1:18:34Did you not say that?
1:18:35This is, hey. See, this is why.
1:18:37At this moment,
1:18:38I respectfully invoke my Fifth Amendment right
1:18:40against self-incrimination.
1:18:41She brought it up, man. He said, "I don't wear
1:18:42sneakers and I don't wear underwear."
1:18:44And I was like, "See, I knew I liked this man.
1:18:46Always entertaining."
1:18:48You were the guy left in the business
1:18:50that can sell ice to an Eskimo.
1:18:52Thank you. Oh, there you go.
1:18:53That's the biggest compliment that I can give you.
1:18:55Thank you very much.
1:18:56(stirring music)
1:19:03(lightning thunders)

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