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Palantir CEO Alex Karp: AI Panic, Rise of Germany's AfD & Saving Europe — Transcript

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0:04[music]
0:15[music]
0:22[music]
0:23>> Good morning Alex. We are sitting here
0:25in the middle of the mountains of Idaho.
0:29Near you in your beautiful house.
0:32I remember very well when we met for the
0:36first time. It was in 2003. It was at a
0:39party in southern France.
0:42And somebody introduced you to me
0:46preparing me by saying Alex Karpis is a
0:48super interesting guy. He studied at the
0:51Goethe University in Frankfurt.
0:54Jürgen Habermas was his professor. He's
0:56an intellectual.
0:57Unfortunately, he has no job. Uh
1:00penniless, but an interesting guy.
1:03We met. We got along very well and I had
1:05the feeling this is a guy who is rather
1:07on the
1:08left side of the political spectrum. A
1:10very intellectual personality. Cares a
1:13lot about the state of democracy, about
1:15individual rights.
1:17And [clears throat]
1:19today
1:21this guy has launched one of the most
1:24successful companies of recent business
1:26since history, Palantir.
1:28Market cap currently north of 300
1:32billion.
1:34And suddenly people are describing you
1:36like a kind of Darth Vader.
1:39Uh
1:40a sinister figure
1:42of
1:44far right-wing ideologies and almost
1:48like a warmonger.
1:50Please tell me
1:52what happened? Did you change?
1:54>> Well, first of all, that that that the
1:56thing is
1:58Palantir is a hundred more ex-fans and
2:01and and people who describe me that way.
2:03In fact, my personal experience,
2:06including in Germany,
2:07including and especially in Germany, is
2:10you you
2:11the media version, and I'll get to that,
2:13is yeah, something like, you know,
2:16bringing war to peace times or
2:18something.
2:19>> [laughter]
2:20>> Um
2:21but the actual
2:23rational human being on the street is a
2:26Palantir fan. Uh part of our success
2:30there's the product side,
2:32um which we could talk about. There's
2:34also like plus wait, every single person
2:37in Silicon Valley who finances things
2:40would cut off their right arm to have
2:42the fans we have. And their and your
2:43left arm.
2:45So, but there there there there there's
2:48many many things in your question, and I
2:49remember meeting you too and thinking,
2:51oh, this is a really interesting person.
2:53Um and you know, well, how does somebody
2:56who studies music end up running
3:00what I mean, for those who are not
3:02in the German-speaking world,
3:04it's funny, outside the German-speaking
3:06world, people do not understand the
3:08impact of Axel Springer.
3:10Um and it which
3:13Axel Springer Verlag, which you
3:16it's you know, it's easy to say you run,
3:17but it's it's different, you know, in
3:19Germany, there really aren't that many I
3:22can't think of any other Eigentümer
3:25someone who owns a significant stake in
3:27the company that's also running it.
3:30So, it's a very very unusual setup. It's
3:32it's more similar to America, but then
3:34we don't have essentially a
3:36second-generation business
3:38run by
3:40uh an owner. So, even in America, that
3:43the whole setup is very very unusual.
3:46Uh and then,
3:47you know, yeah, I mean, what I think uh
3:49bound us together from beginning is
3:51you're
3:53your
3:54it it it doesn't translate well to
3:55English but a music scientist. So we
3:57don't really have
3:59science and music and I guess in America
4:00but it sounds kind of fake even though
4:02I'm sure there is a faculty that but in
4:04any case
4:05um
4:06uh
4:06that's a very unusual setup on your end.
4:09>> Yeah, we are both outsiders. That's
4:10absolutely true and
4:12we both
4:14are polarizing. That's also fair to say.
4:16I just tried to get it why
4:19a person that I met almost a quarter
4:21century ago
4:23and whom I've met
4:25during that time very regularly and I
4:28did not observe any change in your
4:30worldview or in your personality. And
4:33now the description of you the outside
4:35picture of you is in sharp contrast.
4:37>> Yeah, let me
4:39let me let me ask answer the question
4:40and it's the exact right framing but I
4:42still want to push back on uh
4:45it
4:46there's
4:47almost no one else in tech maybe one or
4:49two that were who has anything like the
4:51fans I have. So it's there's this both
4:54the outside kind of I would say
4:55especially in your much less so here
4:59version of me Palantir Peter which is
5:03exactly what you described but I I just
5:04want to also highlight the dynamic that
5:07these people also create fans. Like
5:10whenever I do something I'm basically
5:12only talk to Germany through you now.
5:14And I get hate but I would say a hundred
5:17times more fans writing hey could you
5:19please thank you for helping Germany.
5:21Especially young people who are want to
5:24do things in Germany as an example. So
5:26any case but let me get to let me answer
5:28your question directly
5:30without the caveat. Um
5:33But I do think there's a European and
5:34American difference here but
5:37our products
5:39PG
5:40um changed the course of history by
5:43reducing
5:44basically. I mean there have been minor
5:47terror attacks, and terror attacks can
5:48always happen. But, since we launched
5:50the product,
5:52you have it has stopped hundreds and
5:54hundreds of terror attacks.
5:56>> But, Alex, would you then simply
5:57describe the mission of Palantir, what
6:00you think Palantir is to doing
6:03to society? What is the mission in order
6:06to help people to decide whether they
6:08should feel safe or not?
6:09>> Well, again,
6:10but I let me just answer the I'm trying
6:12to get to the question you're asking,
6:13which is a really deep question. Why
6:15would
6:16people want to portray us so
6:18inaccurately? Is my version of the
6:20question. And I think there's a
6:21functional reason for that.
6:24And the function there it's really
6:25twofold, and I here I'm going to use
6:26Europe as an example. One, the products
6:29works too well, so people can afford it.
6:31The terror attacks in Europe have
6:33basically been reduced to something
6:34that's not something people are afraid
6:36of, even though there are way too many
6:37attacks on the streets, especially of
6:39Germany, and that but people view it as
6:41an immigration problem, not as a terror
6:42problem, right or wrong.
6:44And two, our products play a significant
6:47role in Ukraine. So, Russia and Russia
6:49doesn't appear to be winning. So, I I
6:52think the setup to to to answer the
6:54Palantir attack thing, especially in
6:55Europe, you also have to say, why can
6:58Europe Why does Europe believe they can
7:00afford to attack
7:02Palantir? And I'm telling you,
7:04the primary reason is cuz And this is a
7:06Palantir problem. Our products were well
7:08were powerful enough that people believe
7:10they can afford it, which is again,
7:12okay. So,
7:13um
7:15then what it what And so, like So, then
7:18you the So, that's I think the backdrop.
7:20Then, why would you want to perceive us
7:22that way? And then I do think there's a
7:23European and American difference, and it
7:25basically comes down to America is
7:27hyper-charging AI and tech, and has
7:30these phenomenal And that that's where I
7:32do think the reason why you're kind of a
7:34bridge between America and Europe. There
7:36are lots of reasons, but one of them is
7:38you look like more like an an business
7:40person, like you own the company This is
7:43a big like that's a banality, but it's
7:45also true. And if you are saying like
7:48essentially just take a neutral example,
7:50American businesses versus European
7:52businesses. American businesses believe
7:55they're at war
7:56all the time.
7:58So if you show up with a product that is
7:59demonstrably better
8:01on all scores
8:04in America and in Europe, you're going
8:06to have a very different reception. In
8:09America, it's going to It's not going to
8:10be I like or do not like the person.
8:13Although most
8:14your American businesses love pound you.
8:17But it's going to be how does it work?
8:19Why does it work? Does it transform my
8:21business? Does the technology work? Is
8:24the technology stealing my IP? And in
8:26Europe, you can't really afford to ask
8:29these questions or
8:31or they're not being asked correctly
8:33because the answer to the question will
8:35be some significant part of that
8:37infrastructure is going to have to be
8:39imported from America.
8:41>> I mean you you have described me many
8:44times that your main goal, your mission
8:46is to protect democracy. And that's what
8:48you are doing, I think quite
8:50efficiently. Nevertheless, the debate in
8:52Europe is mainly these guys are
8:56collaborating with the American secret
8:59service. That's bad. That's dangerous.
9:02What do we get wrong? I mean to work
9:05with the secret service of democracy to
9:07protect democracy, I think is a good
9:08thing. But why why is that perceived
9:11problematic?
9:14Boycotting Palantir
9:15and portray you as a force of evil,
9:18although you are obviously
9:21on the side of democracies.
9:24>> I just
9:25But nobody sees it that way outside of
9:27you. I mean we have Europe that's a
9:29widespread sentiment in Europe. And if
9:31the point I the point I would say to
9:34especially Germany where I care is
9:36is that really the wide sent is that
9:38that is I think that's way downstream of
9:41very bad decision-making. So, they
9:45perceive Palantir by the way again, I
9:47really really deeply believe the they
9:50here are the professional media,
9:53left of center politicians, people who
9:55equate Peter and me with an an old
9:57version of Germany, which they do not
9:59want. And that the vast majority of
10:01Germans, the vast majority of Germans
10:04would prefer a world where the
10:06decision-making was rational enough so
10:08you could evaluate Palantir in a
10:10rational way.
10:11That that's what I believe.
10:13>> Are you rather
10:14>> let me let me just get to the but
10:17but the the
10:18the the technical point that I think is
10:21very important is the decision-making is
10:24objectively wrong.
10:25From the perspective of
10:27how would you protect the data?
10:30You need an application layer. And so
10:33the crazy thing about what's happening
10:34in Europe is we have the only industrial
10:37industrial user application layer in the
10:39world. That application layer protects
10:41your data from being essentially abused
10:44by law large language model providers.
10:46So, what you have in Europe are
10:48technically illiterate bureaucrats that
10:52in the name of protecting their people
10:54from a company they don't like because
10:56they don't like basically what Peter and
10:58I represent, which in my view is
11:00actually old-school European values.
11:03Old-school European values mean the
11:05products are the best in the world and
11:07they actually are morally superior
11:09because of the competence involved. And
11:11every single one of our products is like
11:12that. Those products cannot touch. So, I
11:16So, you're framing it as a moral thing.
11:18I'm saying the moral thing is way
11:19downstream of the competence problem.
11:22And if you were to solve the if you were
11:24to solve the competence problem in tech
11:26in Europe, which is the bigger problem.
11:29Europe is It's a relevant market for
11:31Palantir except for that I care.
11:33>> But the main accusation is data
11:34surveillance. Palantir is
11:38a form of espionage, and the most
11:41aggressive term was you are
11:42techno-fascists.
11:45You
11:46are rather on the side of data
11:48surveillance, or are you rather on the
11:50side of
11:51>> Well, first of all, data protection
11:56The most interesting, like, fascinating
11:58thing, if it wasn't said, and and very
12:01very childish,
12:03is
12:05the products we provide.
12:08PG, for which is what she used in the
12:10police forces
12:12and intel services in Europe. Foundry,
12:16ontology, which is used in the Ukraine,
12:18and ontology is essentially a
12:20application layer. These products are
12:23the products you will need,
12:25and the only ones available at scale
12:27that I'm aware of,
12:29to stop what people mean by
12:31surveillance. What do we mean by What
12:34what what what should Europe mean by
12:35surveillance?
12:36What what it What it should mean is the
12:39IP, the indigenous know-how that still
12:41powers Europe, gets migrated to a
12:43different company in a company that's
12:46not European, that has no interest in
12:47Europe, that is not going to protect you
12:49to the rights, meaning your right to
12:51privacy, your right to that data being
12:53purged. Also, your right to have I mean,
12:55in Europe, one of the things I've always
12:56embraced is in America, we have rights
13:00that are basically moral rights. In
13:03Europe, you have economic rights, and
13:04they're intertwined, which is always the
13:06vexing discussion. So, the vexing
13:08discussion between America and Europe
13:10is, from the American perspective, you
13:12don't protect rights enough vis-a-vis
13:14your government. So, Europe No European
13:16country has anything like a First or
13:18Second Amendment. That's vexing. And the
13:20Fourth Amendment in Europe is probably
13:22the closest in America's closest to what
13:25you have, meaning the right to privacy.
13:27But even there, without going into
13:28technical details, we have widely
13:30divergent ideas of how to do that. Basic
13:33and so and then the the vexing thing
13:35from a European perspective is Americans
13:38have all these rights vis-a-vis the
13:39government, but you have no right of
13:41protection vis-a-vis companies and there
13:43are basically you have a right to
13:45succeed or fail here. You don't have a
13:47right to economic justice. I mean,
13:49that's maybe something people want
13:51politically, but in the Constitution
13:53that is not enshrined. So, you have a
13:55completely different idea of rights. I
13:58actually am a classic progressive. I'm
14:00more I'm I'm still American in that I I
14:04like my first, second, and fourth
14:06amendment, but I would like to see a
14:08better treatment for poor. Okay, so
14:10>> still describe yourself as a
14:11progressive, correct?
14:12>> Oh, I I would describe myself as one of
14:14the few last standing actual
14:16progressives in that I believe Well,
14:19first of all, I'm willing to defend the
14:20rights of someone I don't like.
14:22Okay, that somehow has gone and again,
14:25it's particularly gone in Europe. Like,
14:27they frame this as I don't like you.
14:28That How is that relevant? Like,
14:30>> Why do we moralize everything? Also, it
14:32is about Germans who have been very
14:35successful in America in the Silicon
14:36Valley, Peter Thiel,
14:39uh Tobi Lütke,
14:43Schindler, Philip Schindler. So, there
14:45are a couple of Germans who made
14:47impressive careers in the Silicon Valley
14:49and
14:50we in Europe and in Germany do so far
14:53not really take advantage of it, but
14:54first we moralize. We say, "Well, there
14:57must be something
14:59>> Well, there's there's there's there's
15:00there's a difference in like
15:02I mean, as a generalization Germany is a
15:05very Lutheran culture and we're a
15:07Calvinist culture. So, that like we
15:09equate success with being
15:11like the Swiss are Calvinist, the Dutch
15:12are Calvinist, but
15:15as a generalization, I would say Europe
15:17in general
15:18and Germany, obviously in particular, is
15:20a Lutheran culture where
15:22Lutheran culture tends to view massive
15:26success you've you've acquired during
15:29your lifetime with great skepticism.
15:30Calvinist we're like peak Calvinism.
15:33Maybe we even take it too far where we
15:35ascribe financial success to moral
15:37success.
15:40Both have their strengths and
15:41weaknesses. The the the way I tend to
15:44want to frame the question is but the
15:47excess in Europe immoralizing more
15:49moralizing is clearly
15:52in my view downstream from not wanting
15:55to solve the problems. And so and and
15:58then and I think Palantir is the
16:00archetypical example. You can say
16:03basically against all technical evidence
16:05that Palantir are techno-fascist. What
16:08would that mean and that we're engaged
16:10in surveillance when our products are
16:11actually the ones that stopped that.
16:14Or you can ask the more serious
16:16question, what has gone wrong in our
16:18culture that we have no other
16:20application layer that would allow us to
16:21do this.
16:22>> Probably the most impactful and
16:23successful German of recent decades is
16:26Peter Thiel. You know him well. He was
16:28the co-founder of Palantir.
16:30Is he an anti-democrat? Is he a
16:33religious fanatic? Could you
16:34>> No, I mean I so actually the way I would
16:36reframe the beginning of the question is
16:39I think my treatment in Germany is
16:44it's not what it should be but it's
16:46honestly given that how much money I've
16:49made
16:50fairer than you could think. I think the
16:51treatment of Peter is atrocious.
16:54Um
16:55>> Why?
16:55>> Well, first of all again, it's
16:59one of the things I really you're you're
17:00I would start with again
17:03and it's a very German concept. See
17:05again, I I think what is happening what
17:07what scares me a lot in Germany is it's
17:09an importation of a version of America
17:12on top of German ideals that are of kind
17:16of are are attenuated, um
17:19and uh and so
17:22the real question to ask is I think the
17:25question historically one would have
17:26asked in Germany is
17:28can we afford this? Can we afford not to
17:31learn from this person?
17:33And I think that's the right question
17:34Germany has asked.
17:35>> Well, I make a point and could say,
17:37well, it depends on
17:39where the person stands with regard to
17:41values. So, if somebody is intrinsically
17:43anti-democratic or has a leaning towards
17:46authoritarian
17:47>> First of all, I I I It's a different
17:48thing than this person I think should go
17:50should not be a role model. A question
17:52is here, is it a misunderstanding of the
17:54person or is there a point?
17:55>> No, no. I'm going to First of all, it is
17:57a misunderstanding, it's not true, but
17:59I'm sure I'm going to push back on that.
18:00>> Mhm.
18:01>> I don't I you can I am reading
18:04books on Deng Xiaoping.
18:06I read a book on I'm reading books on
18:07Mao.
18:09I I've read a lot of books on
18:12I learn I've I'm learning a lot from Mao
18:15and Deng Xiaoping. I don't agree with
18:16Mao on anything. Like so, like I don't
18:18believe anyone can afford not to learn.
18:20And I And if you're in a very bad
18:22situation, let's just take an obvious
18:24example, the German tech scene.
18:27The German tech scene should be the
18:28number two in the world.
18:30By any historical standard, honestly,
18:32the German tech scene was the number one
18:33in the world.
18:35So, number two is already like maybe
18:37shouldn't be the aspiration. It's on no
18:39one's list. You're one of the more
18:40successful investors in Germany. You
18:42know that you probably know successful
18:44companies in Germany, but the the most
18:47largest company in Germany by market cap
18:49I think is Siemens and Palantir is
18:51significantly larger, even where we're
18:53obviously undervalued.
18:54So, currently. So,
18:57my first cut and and you see this in
18:59this like where you you know, you and I
19:01have been friends and we we actually
19:02agree on the moral stuff
19:04pretty much one-to-one on pro-democracy,
19:07what does democracy mean, pro-data
19:09protection, alignment with the West.
19:11We should have an alliance that is those
19:13of us who don't agree, that alliance
19:15should be Western Europe, America, the
19:18Five Eyes, and Israel, and Japan, and
19:20Korea. So, we we agree on those things
19:24and many other things almost
19:25deckungsgleich, meaning with almost but
19:28where I think there is distance would be
19:30my approach, which is
19:33I would the first question I would ask
19:34is
19:35can can Germany afford not to learn from
19:38Peter, even if all those things were
19:40true. Now, you're right. It has It
19:42should be clarified. I I've known Peter
19:46since we were poor students at Stanford.
19:49Um we had conversations as like just
19:52poor students fighting about
19:53intellectual things. He was always
19:55heterodox right. I was always heterodox
19:57left. I don't think much has changed.
19:59He's still heterodox right, meaning he's
20:01very frustrating to classic Republicans.
20:03I he I He's never been a neocon. Like a
20:06lot of the thing He He He does He's
20:09never He actually does not really
20:11believe in classic uh
20:14Republican economic theory.
20:16Uh
20:17he was the first person to flag and so
20:19will always flag like in conversations
20:22you tend to have people on the right
20:23basically explaining all problems as the
20:26result of capitalism not being driven
20:28far enough. That's just not Peter's
20:30view. Uh he he's not he's not a
20:33simplistic or caricatured thinker on the
20:35right.
20:36Meaning and he's definitely not the
20:38caricature that the left wants to
20:40present. But what's fascinating to me is
20:43why is it so important to spend so much
20:45time
20:47uh blocking Peter from the German
20:50market. Forget Palantir. Like forget
20:52It's not like I want to help Germany cuz
20:53I care about Europe and because I have a
20:56I mean because of historical fa- family
21:00and also I just felt at home in Germany
21:01for a long time.
21:03Uh but
21:04but for me that's cuz like let me just
21:07reframe the moral thing.
21:09It's so obviously thin.
21:11What they're saying about him, what they
21:13say about Palantir, so obviously doesn't
21:15make sense on the merits. You only need
21:1610 minutes, 5 minutes on Google to see
21:18this isn't true.
21:20Why do people want to and need to
21:23believe that truth? Was the question
21:25that I believe. And by the way, it's not
21:27that different. I mean, you're talking
21:28about Peter and me, I could ask you the
21:30same question. Like, I've known you for
21:33not as long as I've known Peter, but and
21:34you were very successful before I was.
21:38Um, I I mean, I don't the German
21:40non-German audience may not realize how
21:42Axel Springer is discussed. Okay, so
21:45like
21:46there I think there are very important
21:48political figures in Germany without
21:50naming names that see no difference
21:52between you and the right side of the
21:55AfD.
21:56Okay, it's absurd.
21:58I I I believe most of my left-wing
22:01friends in Germany think Axel Springer
22:03wakes up in the morning
22:05and tries to make the world worse and
22:06goes to bed with a smile when the world
22:08is worse. This obviously not true.
22:11>> What is your take actually on the rise
22:12of the AfD in Germany as somebody who
22:14has studied in Germany, speaks German,
22:16cares very much about the well-being of
22:18the country. We see now
22:20this kind of polarization of society,
22:22the very left and the far right are on
22:24the rise and the AfD, what is it for
22:27you? Is it a normal party or is it
22:30>> I I think the AfD is very complex and
22:32I'm not reading all the news all the
22:34time. I I I I give you
22:36um
22:37I I think first of all, the rise of the
22:40of extreme parties was super predictable
22:43and I may have been talk shouting about
22:45this for the last 10 years.
22:47You can't If you're going to bring in
22:50uh a doing wide square
22:52very deep and large migration into
22:55Germany without the buy-in of the German
22:58people and what without an honest
23:00discussion of the consequences. Again,
23:03I understand
23:05why this is hard to do in Germany and
23:06it's completely about history, which you
23:09know, if my family hadn't left Germany,
23:12I would be a lampshade. I mean, they
23:14left before the Holocaust. I'm very
23:16Everybody understands that and is
23:18sympathetic. But we haven't You have in
23:20Europe, but especially in Germany, just
23:22an impossibly
23:25difficult
23:27painful
23:28inability to talk about obvious facts.
23:31But the average person on the street is
23:33living with these facts, okay?
23:34>> You're avoiding my question. What do you
23:35think about the AfD?
23:36>> I was going to say keep
23:37>> No, no, as Palantir is
23:39>> No, no, I was going
23:40>> in Ukraine against Russia, the AfD is
23:42asking
23:43Ukraine and just recently one of the
23:46leaders said, "We have to force Ukraine
23:48at the table to negotiate with Russia."
23:49That is turning history and perpetrator
23:52and
23:53>> No, no, I I no, no, I totally I totally
23:56I I'm going to get to the point where I
23:57agree with you. I just I I I Again,
24:00we're we're like you're starting with
24:02the moral thing, I'm starting with the
24:03economic reason and cultural reason why
24:05this thing exists. So the question you
24:07asked is, "Why have they Why are they in
24:09ascendancy?" And they're much AfD is
24:11much stronger than they appear because I
24:13have friends who 5 years ago were
24:15telling me they would never vote for the
24:17AfD, who are voting for the AfD. Well,
24:19like people who are Social Democrats.
24:21And And then, when the AfD is polling at
24:2340%, there's another 10 points above
24:26that that would vote for them if they
24:28weren't the AfD.
24:29And so
24:29>> I think the AfD is just the consequence
24:31of a weak leadership in the center of
24:35political spectrum.
24:37Uh but that does not necessarily mean
24:39that that disruption
24:41is done by a force by a political force
24:44that has a concept that will be good for
24:47Germany. And I personally think that the
24:49AfD is just not an alternative because
24:52it is intrinsically in large parts of
24:54the party pro-Russia, pro-China, even
24:57with a certain tolerance to uh
25:00>> Well, I mean I have
25:00>> authoritarian forces in the Middle East.
25:02It is in large parts intrinsically
25:04anti-capitalist. It is in large parts
25:06anti-American. Just recently we heard
25:08that Germany is divided in two parts. We
25:10have East Germany where are the German
25:11Germans and then we have West Germany
25:13where are the American Germans. Okay, so
25:15this is
25:16just not a alternative.
25:19>> No.
25:19>> Uh and I just would like to
25:21>> a bone to pick with you because
25:21>> some people are accusing Peter or you or
25:24that you have a certain leaning or
25:27understanding for that
25:28>> No, no, no, okay, then I see.
25:29>> Well,
25:30this is again, I basically agree with
25:33everything you said, but the point I
25:34would push back on I have a deep
25:36understanding for why they're
25:37succeeding.
25:38So, it's like I would not vote for the
25:40AfD if I were able to vote and were
25:42voting in Germany. And um but that's
25:45different from I think part of the
25:47reason they're successful is that first
25:50of all, no one actually believes like
25:53let's just say the parties the classic
25:56parties are actually going to take
25:57migration seriously, but no one believes
25:59they're going to do it. So, you get
26:01people voting for AfD basically because
26:04you know it's a protest vote. And you
26:08know, you know, you're
26:10Germans and people who care about
26:12Germany like me have been screaming and
26:15been right and no one listens. And not
26:17only does no one listen and you are a
26:20great example of this.
26:21You are honestly
26:24pretty left wing on most issues as far
26:26as I can tell.
26:28And I've known you for 20 years. And and
26:30and you're kind of classically, if I
26:32were to describe you, classically
26:34left-leaning person who's a little bit
26:37more
26:38bought into the capitalist narrative
26:40than I am. That that's how I would
26:41describe and if I would describe you
26:42probably so okay.
26:44You get pilloried and and and you tell
26:48everybody I'm against the AfD. God knows
26:51you have no sympathy for anyone who's
26:53pro-Russia. I mean, like you believe for
26:55that? Like we're on the front line.
26:57>> Pro-Putin.
26:58>> I should always clarify we have nothing
27:00against the Russians. We have nothing
27:01against the Chinese, but we have a lot
27:03against
27:04>> I'm I'm I'm just kidding. Yeah,
27:05I I I'm a Tai Chi I'm an expert in one
27:08of the four great treasures in China.
27:10I'm reading all these things about I I I
27:12have a deep appreciation of Russian
27:14culture, Russian math. I have a So, we
27:16agree on that, but shorthand
27:19if I were to say what I think motivates
27:21you
27:22after watching you for 20 years is you
27:25are deeply pro-democratic.
27:27You're kind of progressive on most
27:29issues except for you do not like you
27:32don't want anything that's stupid and
27:33won't work. And if I had to say where
27:36you're kind of a zealot
27:39it's on the you know, anti-Putin,
27:42anti-China stuff. And actually on
27:46no tolerance for anti-Semitism. So,
27:47that's your those are those those are
27:49your
27:52>> Those positions are
27:56I mean, they're solidly mainstream. And
27:59I can tell people who are listening and
28:01want to hear this like if like even in
28:04private discussions they're like I'm
28:05much more on like yeah, I want to
28:07understand why still I of course I'm not
28:09going to I'm not interested in voting
28:10for them, but I understand why and
28:11you're more on the they're wrong,
28:14they're wrong, they're wrong, which is
28:15why our dialogues are fun. This is
28:17basically like it would be in private.
28:18Okay. So, the
28:21I how much you're we
28:25something I am actually frustrated with
28:27in Europe is again, the anti-terror
28:29things would be very different and
28:31Ukraine would not have been able to
28:33succeed they're Okay, let me just finish
28:35this. But so, obviously I'm not
28:38interested in supporting a party that is
28:40deeply sympathetic with Putin, is
28:42interested in like I think I think
28:44Europe made a like the season that is
28:47sympathetic with the CCP and and quite
28:49frankly these parties are complex but
28:51they're you know they have to it does
28:53contain people that I kind of would
28:56suspect would not like me very much. Um
28:58Okay.
28:59>> But
29:00Alex, I think the frustration of people
29:02is very much driven by a failed
29:05migration policy, a failed energy
29:07policy, and the journey in Europe is
29:09completely
29:11>> And the GDP decline.
29:12>> exactly. It's not delivering on economic
29:14growth. And that has to do with a lack
29:17of
29:19startup culture, of risk culture. In
29:21America, people deploy millions to a new
29:25idea
29:26and just believe that the impossible is
29:29possible. Whereas in Europe and in
29:30Germany, we have to a large degree a
29:31very risk-focused culture.
29:33>> Yeah, but but here we are entering the
29:35era of AI and whether it's an
29:38opportunity or a threat
29:40and I think we should also discuss the
29:44culture differences between America and
29:46Europe and Germany in the context of
29:48these developments. I I think we could
29:51turn it around and we could say this is
29:53an opportunity because I see a lot of AI
29:55skepticism in America. I see in America
29:57almost more AI skepticism at this moment
30:00than in Europe among normal people. If
30:04we have an all hands in America, people
30:06are raising posters and saying AI is
30:08killing our jobs. If we do the same in
30:10Germany or in Europe, people are saying,
30:12"Well, we want to learn. We want to
30:13understand. We want to take advantage of
30:14it."
30:15Do you think that there could be
30:17>> Well, yeah, but not without
30:19acknowledging that there's a crisis for
30:21the very simple reason. First of all,
30:23the the debate is different. Europe is
30:25partly not skeptical of AI because you
30:27are not like for example take the
30:29Palantir example. We are the only
30:32product available that makes AI useful
30:35on the battlefield and safe and useful
30:37and safe and commercial. It It's very
30:39hard to discuss AI when what they mean
30:42are largely companies
30:45being slightly unfair that would not be
30:47able to compete in America. So,
30:49you're talking about AI light, but the
30:52thing is
30:52>> But at least talk also about the
30:53opportunity.
30:54>> Yeah, I get it and we agree that Germany
30:56has not delivered Europe has not
30:57delivered.
30:57>> Let me finish Let me just finish this.
30:59It you It is nothing's going to work
31:02before
31:03the Chancellor gets up and says, "We
31:06have an a crisis."
31:08Because who fix the problem? Again, you
31:12are going Who's going to fix the
31:13problem? The problem is you are going to
31:15have to bring in a Tobias or a Schindler
31:18or a Thiel
31:20as in a very significant role. You can't
31:23rebuild with people who've never done
31:25this before. And so, and then who's
31:27going to build under what conditions?
31:29What are the working conditions? How do
31:30you bring the whole society along? How
31:32how How much can someone work per day?
31:35Tech works because people work are
31:38dedicated like doggedly dedicated around
31:41the clock for years. And by the way, if
31:44somebody doesn't belong on the team, you
31:45can move them out of the team or out of
31:47the company. By the way, the the for
31:49tech people again, I'm wildly I think
31:51people I got along with best when I was
31:53on boards in Germany were the unions.
31:55So, I'm not saying but you don't need
31:57worker protection for someone who isn't
32:00a software engineer that could work at
32:01an LLM lab. So, but
32:04to get this to work,
32:06you
32:07have to have someone saying, "This is a
32:09crisis."
32:11I think you're also going to have to
32:12say, "This is an economic zone. We are
32:15going to create an economic zone in
32:16Germany and in that economic zone
32:19competition is going to look exactly
32:21like it looks in America or does in
32:23China or does in Israel."
32:25>> Why are people in America more afraid of
32:27AI than in Europe at the moment? Do they
32:28know more?
32:30Or is it
32:31>> Well, first of all, yeah, I mean, really
32:33honestly, yes. And so, like again, I
32:36think So, do think the fear is
32:37appropriate?
32:38Of course. It's a These are It's like
32:41the simple metaphor that is simple but
32:44works is the the large language models
32:46are like uranium.
32:48Okay.
32:49You can use it for a good cause or for a
32:51bad cause. No, no, they have to be
32:52processed. And in the processing, they
32:55become First of all, just touching them
32:57probably is not a good idea. But so,
33:00using them Like again, Yeah, but if you
33:02use the metaphor of uranium, I think
33:04it's very appropriate because you can
33:05use it for bad or for good causes. And
33:07here again, people start to
33:10have a moral discussion or discuss
33:13whether it's good or bad instead of
33:14saying, "Let's make sure that we use it
33:16for for good causes." I mean, it's
33:19Again, there is this comparison to a
33:21knife. You can use a knife in order to
33:23prepare food, and you can use a knife in
33:25order to kill people. So, we should not
33:28But the the reason why
33:30But but it it is both true and Again,
33:32this is why I think these things are
33:33actually economic and technical first.
33:36It is
33:37you have to understand what the
33:39technologies do.
33:41You have to have people who are working
33:43natively with these technologies.
33:45And those people have to be involved.
33:48And again, here it's like you basically
33:50have different parts of the stack. You
33:51have the GPU part of the stack, so
33:53that's chips.
33:54You have essentially an You can in an
33:56enterprise you can have a data
33:57integration part of the stack.
33:59You can do that by hand. If you want
34:01civil liberties, you're going to We do
34:03that. You have an application part of
34:04the stack, so ontology. What does it
34:07mean? How does it mean? How is it
34:08deployed? How is it safely deployed? How
34:09do you process? How do you use? And you
34:11have the large language models, both
34:12closed and open models.
34:14And the closed and open models have
34:16different advantages to the world. Here,
34:19to have a tech scene in Europe,
34:22you need world-leading components in all
34:25those parts. That's not realistic. So,
34:27you're going to have to figure out which
34:28components are actually the ones that
34:31can advance European industry, European
34:33sovereignty. The The sovereignty issue
34:36is a completely technical issue. And in
34:40in it It's not just Germany, honestly.
34:43It The what's really happening in Europe
34:45is you have bureaucrats whose primary
34:47idea is how do I protect the market
34:49against American companies? And And
34:51everything else is downstream.
34:52>> Let me again try to twist it towards an
34:56opportunity.
34:57If this kind of
34:59anti-AI sentiment is ongoing in America,
35:01and I fear that Americans could see an
35:03election campaign where the two parties
35:05are basically competing in order to
35:08explain that their party is protecting
35:10their people better against AI. I think
35:13that's a very dangerous place, but
35:14that's what what's
35:15>> Yeah, that's happening and has already
35:16started.
35:17>> So, if that's ongoing, and every kind of
35:20new data center is a big
35:22issue and
35:24raises a lot of protest and so on,
35:26wouldn't that be an opportunity for
35:28Europe and say, "Okay, Europe, welcome.
35:30Keep building the data centers here.
35:32>> I I Matthias, I feel like I'm more
35:34German than you. I'm just going to put
35:35that out there. You're playing the
35:37American. I'm playing it Like, okay.
35:40Of course it's an opportunity, but it's
35:41only an opportunity if it's technically
35:44credible. So, like, if you ask me, I'm
35:46in charge of Germany or in charge of
35:48France or some great nation,
35:50you have to say, "First, we have a
35:52crisis. We We are going to get the best
35:55people in the world to come.
35:58We're going to call the best people in
35:59the world and say, "What
36:00>> Wait, what?
36:01>> would stop you from By the way, I told I
36:03haven't told this to this Chancellor,
36:04but I've literally told directly or
36:06indirectly to every Chancellor and every
36:09important politician that you can think
36:11of for the last 10-15 years. You got to
36:14do what Israel does, what China does,
36:18what America would do, what what we did
36:20after World War II. Do you Do you Like,
36:22we built our industry on German
36:24scientists.
36:26Like,
36:26it's like and the people who built the
36:29bomb, like when we built the bomb,
36:32like Einstein writes the president,
36:35the massive opportunity begins with
36:39I know we have a problem that is
36:41dangerous for the present and future of
36:44our society and has to be solved.
36:46There's only a political leader in
36:48Europe has to make that statement.
36:51It would be best if that was Germany for
36:55the leaving all of our
36:57emotional attachments to Germany simply
37:00because Germany once had the best tech
37:02scene and still is the driving economic
37:04motor of Europe and there is no Europe
37:06without Germany. Okay, but then sorry,
37:08let me just
37:09then the question is
37:12you're going to have to bring those
37:14people over and they're going to have to
37:16be the ones distributing the capital,
37:18hiring the people, saying how you do
37:21this.
37:22Of course, what happens is the local
37:24people I mean, Germany has more talent
37:27and France is the same thing that any
37:28other country per per square Okay, those
37:31people learn how to do it and then build
37:34their things themselves and that's and
37:36by the way, another thing, it's talent
37:40not money. It's like it it is
37:43part of the problem here.
37:45Let me give you a different version.
37:46Part of the reason it's hard to do the
37:47optimistic thing is every day Europe
37:50makes another decision
37:52that makes it harder to fix the problem.
37:55>> Okay, Alex,
37:57I I agree absolutely on the opportunity
37:59and on the necessity to bring back to
38:02Germany the best talent. Unfortunately,
38:03we have a lot of people who made their
38:05careers, who know how things are working
38:07and who still feel a certain degree of
38:10patriotism or in any case want that
38:12Europe and that Germany succeeds. So,
38:14let's bring them back, let's take
38:16advantage of them or let's use them
38:18where they are. We agree on that. But, a
38:20fundamental for would be that people
38:22believe in the opportunity and believe
38:25in the necessity to embrace AI to be at
38:27the forefront of these developments.
38:29Could you briefly explain why AI is more
38:32of an opportunity than a threat if you
38:33think if you think
38:34>> Well, I mean again, it's I'm just going
38:36to start at the battlefield is not where
38:37you want me to start maybe, but without
38:41AI systems
38:42Russia would have won.
38:45And by the way, without pre-AI, but
38:47things that can almost do that, you the
38:50parties that, you know, you're very
38:51focused on would be running Europe
38:52because you would have terror attacks
38:54that are rampant. So, Europe is already
38:56completely existing because of these
38:59technologies. Europe, as we know it now
39:01with all its problems, would not exist
39:03without these technologies being used
39:06actively. So, that's like the baseline.
39:08Then you get to okay,
39:10Germany has now has to compete with
39:13China.
39:14And to do that it's going to have to
39:16rebuild how it builds cars, how it
39:17processes chemicals, how it re- changes
39:21its historically dominant industries
39:24into industries that can compete against
39:26America and China.
39:27Uh and it has a limited workforce and in
39:30migration is failing.
39:32Okay, how would you get how would you
39:34raise GDP where you have very strict
39:37laws, but some of which may have to
39:39change. You have energy things which
39:41probably will change, but it's going to
39:43take a long time where it where
39:45migration has not worked.
39:47There is only one technology that can do
39:49this. And by the way, I tend to think
39:51these things should be always asked and
39:53answered in the empirical. There are two
39:56and a half countries that are embracing
39:57these technologies. America, which has
40:00GDP growth that part of the problem we
40:02have politically is it works almost too
40:05well. It's just not widely distributed.
40:07China seems to be working and Israel
40:09seems to be working. Where have people
40:11not embraced these technologies? And so,
40:14that that's like it but again, if you
40:17just start with the core problem Germany
40:19has, it's an export culture. Its
40:21products have to be better than everyone
40:22else's or no one's going to buy them.
40:25And
40:26you can basically ask Germans do you
40:28think your products are going to be
40:30responsible for your for your
40:33economic health, bullstand, or is it
40:35going to be your diplomatic service
40:37that's going to deliver that? You're
40:38going to you're going to rely on German
40:40popularity. And so the opportunity is
40:43it's I tend to think like the
40:45opportunity is that if you want to
40:48succeed and thrive, there's only one set
40:50of technologies that can do this. How
40:52are you going to rebuild your car
40:53industry so it's as good as China's?
40:55Just start there.
40:56Like again, that
40:58and people are doing that. We have
40:59partners. How are you going to rebuild
41:01these industries so you can compete and
41:02win?
41:03There there is no other way.
41:06>> Alex, I think we are living
41:09in one of the most exciting times of
41:11civilization. There is so much change.
41:13There is so much progress. There is
41:15progress on so many levels in highest in
41:19accelerated speed. It is
41:21the case for space. It is the case for
41:25health. It is the case for computing and
41:27robotics.
41:28It is the case also for defense.
41:31Unfortunately, we need that. So my
41:35question is although we are
41:38at the eve of an incredible accelerated
41:42productivity gain and uh
41:45potentially
41:46a better form
41:48of
41:49living in civilization.
41:52I really see that opportunity.
41:54Nevertheless,
41:55it is one of the most skeptical times.
41:57There is a lot of fear. There is a lot
41:59of anger.
42:01How do you explain that? Is it simply
42:03the speed of change?
42:05>> it's too much and now let me just focus
42:07on America. I
42:08>> And by the way, that is not a European
42:10origin.
42:12>> And it is arguably bigger problem here?
42:15This is where I do think America might
42:17have like I think
42:18Okay. Europe has an obvious tech problem
42:21with political consequences that are
42:24really bad. America has a more of a
42:26political problem where left far left
42:30far right have just like
42:33they it's more hurt the people are
42:36successful than
42:37any solution. And they're very serious
42:39about that. And you know the the idea
42:41they couldn't win is
42:43not true unfortunately. Um the
42:46the the the the the central framing I'm
42:48skeptical of here with people so people
42:51I agree with probably you and definitely
42:53people in my tech world. Um it's always
42:57like this is going to be a bastion of
43:01plethora of good things that everyone's
43:04going to profit from
43:06and there are no dangers. Not saying you
43:07say this but but it is a commonly held
43:09view and the the tech people want
43:12everyone to like to stand up and say
43:14that and I think that is not credible.
43:17What but I what I think is actually just
43:19like the overselling of AI in this
43:21country is really really
43:24really
43:26somewhat disconcerting but it's also
43:29depressing because you don't have to do
43:30it. This is a natural resource
43:34that is net net excruciatingly valuable
43:38for
43:39the betterment of humanity.
43:41But it does have some negative
43:42externalities. First of all, we don't
43:44know where it's going to go.
43:46It's these things are not deployable
43:48without processing engines, application
43:50layers, ontology, etc. Um
43:53it
43:54And the biggest problem in this country
43:56is
43:57it does
43:58it while it will raise the standard of
44:00living of the average person the people
44:02involved are like going to get 10 100
44:04times wealthier than they already are.
44:07That's a problem for society. Like, you
44:09know, the the way I try to explain to my
44:10Silicon Valley colleagues is
44:14>> Do you think that the wealth I mean, if
44:16we go back to history, then innovation
44:19and new technologies have always led to
44:22uh growth, to prosperity, and to an
44:25improvement of the standard of living of
44:27all people.
44:29Particularly of the lower income income
44:32classes. That has started uh
44:35centuries ago. It was true when the
44:37wheel was invented. It was true when the
44:39steam engine was invented. It was true
44:42when
44:43computers were invented. It has, in the
44:47end, if we draw a line, contributed to
44:50the well-being of people, and it has
44:52improved the shape of society.
44:54Nevertheless, at the beginning, there's
44:56always the concern
44:57the
44:58steam engine is going to destroy
45:00>> Let me just Sorry.
45:02>> jobs.
45:03>> We are always here afraid
45:05>> So, my my point is that I think that
45:07life is not different Let me give you a
45:08different first. Let me give you a
45:10different the answer that I think sums
45:12up a lot of the problems
45:14in Europe and America. This is new
45:15playbook.
45:16Like, there or there is no playbook.
45:18Like
45:19why am I doing so well? Because this is
45:21a neuro diversion age. And what the
45:24people had skills
45:26So, so this is a different revolution.
45:29And even if that is true, and let's
45:31assume it is that everybody will do
45:33well, I think that's not I think most
45:35people will do better.
45:35>> You You think the society is going to
45:37divide into a very few with incredible
45:40wealth
45:41>> the mass that has nothing. No, no, I'm
45:42No, I'm not saying that. Again, I think
45:44that's like that's kind of the the It
45:46That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying
45:48most people who are middle and lower and
45:49little class will do better. Everybody
45:52People who are willing to change their
45:53jobs are likely to do better. But not
45:55everyone.
45:57But that's not the real political
45:58problem. We have a political problem in
46:00this country, not a tech problem.
46:03In past revolutions,
46:05uh the person at the bottom maybe their
46:08salary doubled and the person at the top
46:11became
46:13five times wealthier, but like it was
46:15very unusual to be a billionaire 40
46:17years ago,
46:18right?
46:19You now have a revolution where,
46:22you know, I could become 20 times
46:23wealthier than I am now. And the person
46:26who is working out here could become,
46:29you know, they could have their salary
46:30could go over certainly could go up
46:32significantly by any normal standard
46:34over a period of 10 years.
46:36Go up 50% or double, okay?
46:39It When you have a complete decoupling
46:41of like unimaginable wealth
46:45and normal and that unimaginable wealth
46:48and then this is where we're not really
46:49allowed to say this, but it's done by
46:52people that you don't really relate to.
46:54Like these are like very oddly shaped IQ
46:57specimens
46:59that, you know, you probably wouldn't
47:01want to have over for dinner. If they
47:02were over for dinner, you have nothing
47:03to talk to them about.
47:05And by the way, vice versa.
47:07And you know, and then our whole fabric
47:10is not like I got screamed at for like
47:13first of all, wasn't a draft. It was
47:14like we should have some kind of
47:15service. By the way, by that I meant
47:17hospital, taking care of old people.
47:19Our our fabric of our society's already
47:21strained.
47:22Wealthy people, it's not like in the
47:24'50s and '60s where people actually knew
47:26each other, went to the same schools.
47:28We're already totally separate
47:30societies. Right? It basically is. I
47:32mean, it's inflammatory, but we already
47:34live in a separate but non-equal
47:35society. And then you hypercharge it
47:38with like extreme economic wealth.
47:42Like like ex- egregiously extreme while
47:45everybody else is kind of growing and
47:47even if it's not true,
47:50people are afraid, even if it is true
47:52that most people are raised, the actual
47:54fear people have is I'm going to lose my
47:56job. Now,
47:58that fear, even if it's not true,
48:00the people running the lab companies,
48:03who are the leaders, told you it's true.
48:06They're telling you your life is going
48:08to suck, and they're also getting very
48:10wealthy, and you don't find them very
48:11likable.
48:12>> And people who used to be on the winning
48:15side of history are now suddenly very
48:19much afraid that they would lose their
48:20job. I traveled to the Silicon Valley
48:23three times over the last
48:25few weeks, and the the level of
48:28nervousness
48:29is really surprising. A lot of people
48:31think we have only 6 months until our
48:33jobs are going to be gone, and that is
48:36the tech community, that is developers,
48:38and they they work day and night in
48:41order to reinvent themselves because
48:43they are afraid that in a few months
48:45>> And and again, [clears throat] and then
48:46no income.
48:46>> And then and then the political version
48:48that scares me a lot, and I do think
48:51that I'm yelling at everyone in Silicon
48:53Valley in private and
48:54on public,
48:55I've been a Democrat, despite what you
48:57may be reading about me, most of my
48:59life. I'm still a '70s progressive,
49:02which is actually a real progressive,
49:03meaning I want to help the poor. I just
49:05don't want to burn the rich.
49:07The the Silicon Valley
49:09line basically is don't believe your
49:12lying eyes. Okay, this doesn't work
49:14politically. And by the way, it's the
49:15same problem Germany and Europe have
49:17about all these issues. And if you if
49:19you tell people don't believe your lying
49:21eyes, you know what they do? They
49:22protest vote.
49:24That's what happened, and they protest
49:25vote cuz what they're really saying is
49:28you are telling me not to believe
49:29everything I know to By the way, also,
49:32just overarching in Europe and in
49:33America, the political class has low
49:36legitimacy. So, what you know, what your
49:39version of reality is, they're always
49:40lying to me.
49:42I don't know why they're lying. That's
49:44hard to figure out, but you people
49:45believe they're always lying to me.
49:47And again, to just overly tie this in
49:49to, annoyingly, why I'll give you a
49:52different version. Why is Palantir the
49:54most popular brand in the world? People
49:56always frame it as the most unpopular.
49:58We have For every time you read someone,
50:00we have 100 times that. I'll tell you
50:01why we're the most popular brand in the
50:03world, and that's why they attack us
50:04often. We're the most popular brand in
50:06the world cuz I might be crazy. I am
50:08saying things you don't want to hear
50:09like the West is superior, national
50:12service, which means helping out old
50:13people. Doesn't mean no
50:15uh industry should be fully aligned with
50:17the country. Uh we have to fight for
50:19these things. We have real adversaries.
50:21If we're not competent, we'll lose.
50:23These things are Technologies are not
50:25perfect, and you have to listen to
50:26annoying people. And by the way, you
50:28can't blame everything on a country you
50:30hate, whatever. Okay. And you know why
50:33we're so popular? Because everybody else
50:36is telling you they're only trying to
50:38figure out what you want to hear so they
50:40can That's the felt version. And that's
50:42why when you when politicians in this
50:44country or anywhere else say, "Hey,
50:46don't believe your lying eyes on
50:48migration. Don't believe your lying eyes
50:50>> on nuclear.
50:50>> Don't believe your lying eyes on AI."
50:52They get up, and they vote for people
50:53like, "Screw these people. I'm going to
50:55burn down the house."
50:56>> What you are addressing is I think one
50:57of the most important topics. It is
50:59trust. It is about trust. Trust is lost,
51:01and trust has been lost in large parts
51:03of the political spectrum and the
51:06political scene, and trust has also been
51:09damaged with regard to media and their
51:11credibility. So, we could have a long
51:13discussion about that. Would be super
51:14interesting, but we have to come to an
51:16end sooner or later, Alexander. That's
51:17why I would like to touch upon
51:18geopolitics. And here the arms race
51:22mainly in AI, but not only also in
51:25conventional military
51:28aspects between America
51:30and China or perhaps even ideally
51:32between America and Europe on the one
51:34side and on the other side China and
51:37Russia and Iran and other
51:41evil forces. How do you see
51:43that thing going to develop?
51:46How is the chance
51:48that America is continuing to have the
51:53upper hand on AI and the developments
51:55and how likely is it that China, simply
51:58because there is no
52:00ethical limitation and there is more
52:03access to data of
52:05an incredibly
52:07large population. I mean, that China is
52:10going to win the race. Let me reframe
52:12annoyingly it as the inverse.
52:15That our moral standards, the advantage
52:18America has and Europe does have and I
52:21really hope and and Ukraine proves.
52:24Um, so it it's very deep in the European
52:26history and can be really exposed is
52:28that solving the moral issue often
52:30uncovers a technical issue about which
52:33you're not aware. So, again, Palantir is
52:35the data protection platform. It is the
52:37sovereign platform that drives our
52:39revenue. It is why Ukrainians did so
52:41well, why Israel against Iran over
52:43performed, why America over performed.
52:45And then in tech, there is an advantage
52:48if you've actually been on the
52:49battlefield that so that China has those
52:51they're actually disadvantages. Access
52:53to data, I
52:54I think actually honestly that might be
52:56roughly equal given signal collection on
52:59the battle but China has for example
53:02medical data of 700 million people.
53:05China has
53:06full
53:07You're talking transparency through
53:09complete surveillance with regard to
53:10behavioral data of their people. I think
53:12that's a different quality because
53:14there's simply no democratic
53:16Again, we we should have that's a longer
53:18technical and it depends what you mean
53:20by informatics, machinery, or
53:23battlefield. Battlefield I would push
53:25back on that. Um, and
53:28and I would also also there's not the
53:31correlation between
53:33too feel too much too much data can also
53:35be a problem. It really depends on their
53:37processing capabilities. Also, the
53:40depending on whether Europe and America
53:42changes, the the we there's a lot of
53:45complexity in that statement. It it is
53:46both true and not true. It depends on
53:48the thing. I I'll give you an advantage
53:50I think China really does have, which is
53:53these technologies pound chairs like
53:554,000 people
53:564,200 or something were were on every
53:59major battlefield. It
54:01The reality is there are very big
54:03hardware projects that are still about
54:05still valuable in in in in in
54:08if you look at Iran as opposed to
54:09Ukraine heavy hardware
54:11plane ships other things played a big
54:14role. Those things employ thousands
54:17millions of people.
54:18They they end up with a political
54:20constituency.
54:21One of the biggest problems we have in
54:23the West that China doesn't have is
54:25these technologies are clearly the
54:27future
54:28combined with others, but you just are
54:30feeding
54:31fewer families. And so it's much harder
54:34for us to shift the budget to exactly
54:37where it should go.
54:39Whereas in a like China and also China's
54:41run by more of an engineering class. So
54:43I think they they I would suspect they
54:46have a better like if you I I'm pretty
54:47sure if you went to the Chinese
54:50level like two levels below the person
54:53at the top and you did that in any
54:54European country, you would find
54:56somebody I could explain the technical
54:58issues to. I don't I don't know where
55:00that person is in Europe and it's harder
55:02in the West. So I think that that's the
55:04advantage. The disadvantage they have is
55:06one, people like you and me and the
55:08people that Europe could recruit
55:11really don't want to live in a country
55:12where they have no democratic rights or
55:14economic rights. Uh uh two, um the
55:18actual again, this is where I think the
55:20commercial and battlefield thing of
55:22American industry is at battle.
55:24These things are not theoretical. And
55:27China like America for again, I've been
55:28against I'm not pro-war despite what
55:31people think, but one of the advantages
55:33Ukraine Israel America has just quite
55:35frankly is we know a lot about war, what
55:38works, what doesn't, how it works, what
55:40products work, what products don't work.
55:42Um so, I would say knit knit, that
55:45again, the chief political the chief
55:48technological weakness we have in the
55:50West is kind of political. It's not
55:51technical.
55:52>> Okay, but if you had to
55:54take a bet now, would you rather bet
55:56that China is going to win the race in
55:5910 years down the road, or will the US
56:01keep winning?
56:02>> Well, again, it it 10 years too far out.
56:05We don't know That's impossible to
56:06answer because also,
56:07again, I think the chief problem we have
56:09is political. Like would China win if
56:12you start banning the ability to pure
56:14procure like Look, again, I'm not saying
56:16all the anti-poverty stuff is fine
56:18funded by our adversaries, but it's also
56:20funded by the adversaries. What is the
56:21best thing that can happen to Russia and
56:24China and Iran? Is you don't buy the
56:26things that work. So, like that these
56:29things And you know who knows this? I
56:31mean, these people, again, they are
56:33excruciatingly intelligent and ruthless.
56:36And if they find out that in your local
56:37culture, there people who view
56:39technology as witchcraft, you can bet
56:40your last dollar they're going to fund
56:42those people. And you see this in
56:43America on all sorts of issues. You see
56:45it vis-a-vis us everywhere. Like the
56:47most inane things that actually kind of
56:49work, but you know, so it's like does
56:52the Is the West able to continue to
56:55produce these things? By the way, but
56:57again, I think Silicon Valley in this
56:59country and your people who think
57:01they're advocating for sovereignty in
57:02Europe are, you know, could really have
57:04to do a better job. Um and so, but if
57:07you asked if we can mitigate that risk
57:10by by being more honest and more frontal
57:12and and more realistic both in America
57:15and Europe about our strengths and
57:16weaknesses,
57:18we have a very good chance of winning,
57:19but it is very good chance. Like it's
57:21like you can't Like just take the actual
57:23technical things. The best open models
57:26in the world now are Chinese. That's a
57:28problem also because the closed model
57:31some of the closed model providers are
57:33actually trying to monetize your data.
57:36And if you have China offering models
57:39that are where they're encouraging an
57:41application layer like ours,
57:42interestingly, and you can control the
57:45weights, and that's why we did this
57:46whole thing with with
57:48Nvidia, but it's like the the
57:52the openings here for China are very,
57:54very real. And again, I'm just repeating
57:56myself, but
57:57if they can control the political
58:00apparatus because it's one tribe, one
58:02person, one gender, and we somehow can't
58:05do that, that's a that's a problem.
58:08>> Alex, the very last question of our
58:09conversation. We are living in the world
58:12where most of the centrist
58:15countries and their leadership is
58:19stumbling or weak, where
58:21populists and autocrats are on the rise.
58:26We are
58:28challenged by
58:31opportunities, and there is a lot of
58:33fear, and anger,
58:36and at the time time,
58:38a lot of opportunity.
58:40We have
58:41an incredibly unpredictable geopolitical
58:44situation.
58:46Wars are part of daily reality.
58:51A couple of years down the road, do you
58:54think that what we're experiencing now,
58:56all these discussions, all these
58:58changes, are the beginning of the end of
59:02the open society model, and we will have
59:04in 5 to 10 years a more autocratic
59:06world, where strongmen
59:09and autocrats are dominant, or do you
59:12rather think that what we're
59:14experiencing now is
59:16the healthy wake-up call, is the
59:19beginning of a reinvention, of a
59:22rejuvenation, of the centrist,
59:25rules-based,
59:27open society model.
59:29>> Well, thank you. That's a great way to
59:31end. Like just if like when I'm saying
59:34China and our adversaries have an
59:36advantage in procurement because of like
59:39very narrow selection and
59:43like what I'm trying to say is we don't
59:46know the answer to this question, but we
59:47have to fight like hell to make sure we
59:50are not in societies where they're like
59:52the crazy thing is the functional allies
59:55of our adversaries now
59:57uh who claim to want these progressive
1:00:00things, both actually far right and far
1:00:02left, which are actually structurally
1:00:04very similar, are helping to fight for
1:00:06structures
1:00:08that would not include anyone like them.
1:00:10Like so I want a society where it is the
1:00:14best people succeed, those people every
1:00:16the inputs are very as as equal as they
1:00:19can be, the outputs depend on your
1:00:22aptitude and
1:00:24discipline and honestly and fortunately
1:00:26luck and other variables.
1:00:27Um where their rule of law is enforced,
1:00:31including if you do not like the person.
1:00:33So there's a right of free speech
1:00:35whether you like the person or not,
1:00:37there's a right of privacy whether you
1:00:38like the person or not, there's a right
1:00:40to put checks on the government whether
1:00:42you know they like you or not, where we
1:00:45are able to do creative things and the
1:00:47people who do them get to keep some
1:00:49portion of the proceeds, but where those
1:00:51proceeds are distributed enough so that
1:00:54everybody feels like they're
1:00:55participating, that we have an idea of
1:00:57national order, but that's actually
1:00:59national, but progressive. Like you
1:01:02know, you get to be Swiss if you're
1:01:03Swiss, but you also believe that people
1:01:06who aren't Swiss have a valuable
1:01:07culture.
1:01:08You get to be American if you're you
1:01:10know, the the the the people who are
1:01:13working the hardest to destroy that
1:01:15those concepts and are the most
1:01:17effective in destroying these concepts
1:01:19call themselves progressive. And they're
1:01:22not progressive. or they call
1:01:23themselves, you know, uh I don't know,
1:01:26super far right. They're not even
1:01:28right-wing. Like, you know, one of the
1:01:30one of the things I think is hilarious,
1:01:32though, on that score is, you know, I
1:01:34spent a lot of time in Germany uh
1:01:36talking to people who, you know, some of
1:01:38them regretted, some of them didn't
1:01:39regret their role in in history and dark
1:01:42times.
1:01:43I think they would be very amused to
1:01:45know that people who've taken up their
1:01:47mantle on the right are
1:01:49mostly uh
1:01:51uh people of color, gay, and or Jewish.
1:01:54So, we've had some progress in our
1:01:56societies.
1:01:57>> [laughter]
1:01:59>> We now people on the far right are very
1:02:01diverse
1:02:02on all fronts. And uh but um people on
1:02:05the uh and the people on the far left, I
1:02:07think in the people I hung out with in
1:02:09the Frankfurt School, which is
1:02:11a truly
1:02:12was left of center from where I was, but
1:02:14true progressives would be somewhat not
1:02:16amused to know that the the the actual
1:02:19philosophical background of most modern
1:02:23actual non-progressive progressive is
1:02:24not Marx, it's Heidegger.
1:02:26And it they're not actually left-wing.
1:02:28They're actually asking for things that
1:02:30are classically right-wing. What are
1:02:31those things?
1:02:33They're asking for we all get to be the
1:02:35same.
1:02:36We're all defined by who we are, by how
1:02:38we were born, or what we impute
1:02:40ourselves to be. There are only rights
1:02:43for a sect of people, the a sector of
1:02:46people. The rights do not apply to
1:02:48people who are not like us because of
1:02:50wealth or because they think
1:02:52differently. And that we want a society
1:02:54that is essentially looks communal and
1:02:56it is no way These These are like
1:02:58prototypical non-progressive
1:03:01classically right-wing thoughts, just
1:03:03reapplied to people who call themselves
1:03:05progressive.
1:03:07And that's the society that Palantir and
1:03:09I are effectively working against.
1:03:13By By How are we working against it? By
1:03:15by people giving people more
1:03:16sovereignty, whether they believe it or
1:03:18not, giving people,
1:03:20protecting people from terrorism with
1:03:21civil liberties,
1:03:22>> [music]
1:03:23>> by making businesses wealthier, better,
1:03:25where the businesses keep their actual
1:03:27alpha,
1:03:28by helping Ukraine, Israel, and America
1:03:31establish a dominant position.
1:03:34That's actually helping. [music]
1:03:35>> That's one of the most beautiful
1:03:36sentences
1:03:38of democracies. We agree to disagree. In
1:03:40that case, I have to say we agree. Thank
1:03:43you very much for the discussion.
1:03:44>> [music]
1:03:44>> Take care.

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