Paddy Hill - BBC HARDtalk — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:01foreign
2. 0:03[Music]
3. 0:07since the British legal system
4. 0:10acknowledged one of the greatest
5. 0:12miscarriages of Justice in modern times
6. 0:15six men known as the Birmingham six were
7. 0:18finally freed after spending 16 years in
8. 0:22prison for two murderous Ira bomb
9. 0:24attacks which they did not commit I've
10. 0:28come to Glasgow to meet one of those six
11. 0:31men Paddy Hill it's 20 years since he
12. 0:34ceased to be in his own words a hostage
13. 0:37held by the British state has he managed
14. 0:41to rebuild his life
15. 0:45[Music]
16. 0:59[Applause]
17. 1:12police told us from the start that they
18. 1:15knew we hadn't done it they told us they
19. 1:17didn't care who'd done it they told us
20. 1:20that we were selected and that they were
21. 1:22going to frame us just to keep the
22. 1:24people in there happy
23. 1:26that's what it's all about
24. 1:29this
25. 1:30Paddy Hill Welcome to Hard talk thank
26. 1:33you very much Stephen's pleasure to be
27. 1:34here it's almost 20 years now since your
28. 1:37release
29. 1:39do you feel like a free man today no
30. 1:42never
31. 1:44[Music]
32. 1:46when when you're in jail fighting you're
33. 1:48wrongful conviction
34. 1:50and through the experience of ourselves
35. 1:52and of course other prisoners
36. 1:54you never think of the outside world
37. 1:57and of course everything is just geared
38. 2:00up for getting to the court of appeal
39. 2:02and praying that and wishing that
40. 2:05you win your case
41. 2:06you don't have any plans really about
42. 2:08the outside world
43. 2:10and of course uh there's a nonsense
44. 2:12Stephen be very careful what you wish
45. 2:14for for when you get it you may not know
46. 2:16what to do with it and that is very very
47. 2:19up for us we're wishing to get our
48. 2:22freedom back
49. 2:23and then suddenly you get it and believe
50. 2:25me it is nothing like you imagine it
51. 2:28uh if you would have told me today I got
52. 2:30released
53. 2:31that I would not be able to handle the
54. 2:33outside world I would have laughed in
55. 2:35your face after what I've been through
56. 2:37living the maximum security prisons
57. 2:39which to be honest with you nothing more
58. 2:41than War zones
59. 2:43violence is Rife life is cheap
60. 2:46the cold brutal
61. 2:49places that are filled with nothing but
62. 2:51anger rage frustration and violence
63. 2:54and then suddenly you get out
64. 2:56and in present if somebody wants Indian
65. 2:58prison
66. 2:59the first thing to think about is
67. 3:01stabbing them how do you know he's going
68. 3:03to stop you it's all about face Macho
69. 3:05and you come outside and you walk down
70. 3:07the street and everybody's bumping into
71. 3:09you
72. 3:10and the panic attacks
73. 3:13we know nothing about money
74. 3:15we got 50 000 poem when we first came
75. 3:18out three weeks after we got out I'd
76. 3:19love to sit here and tell you I spent it
77. 3:21I didn't I squandered it I was giving it
78. 3:24away but but it is 20 years now yeah I
79. 3:28am amazed that the ferocity of
80. 3:32your anger and and the complications
81. 3:36about your feelings which you've just
82. 3:37described are still there 20 years on
83. 3:40yeah because when we got out of course
84. 3:43you found out so many things after you
85. 3:45get out
86. 3:46and it fuels the anger uh
87. 3:49when I convert my anger
88. 3:53was at this level up here
89. 3:55but that was in respect of myself
90. 3:58I like to think that over the years that
91. 4:01anger has now subsided a bit
92. 4:03but in its place has come another anger
93. 4:06because when we got out I've always said
94. 4:08if what happened to us
95. 4:10meant that no one else would be wrongly
96. 4:13convicted and tortured and framed
97. 4:15you could walk away
98. 4:17but there is more innocent people in
99. 4:19prison today than there was 50 years ago
100. 4:2230 years ago 20 years ago well we'll
101. 4:24talk about that we'll talk about your
102. 4:26work with other miscarriages of justice
103. 4:28but before we get there
104. 4:31I cannot help but turn to something you
105. 4:34said only a few weeks ago you said every
106. 4:36day all I think about is getting a gun
107. 4:39and killing cops shooting police exactly
108. 4:43how can you say that because that's what
109. 4:46I think about my worst time is a morning
110. 4:48I don't sleep
111. 4:50I went to bed this morning at a quarter
112. 4:52past one
113. 4:53I was in the kitchen having a cup of
114. 4:55coffee at 25 past three
115. 4:57I went back to bed at four o'clock I'm
116. 5:00back up again at 10 past six we don't
117. 5:02sleep we just caten up and I don't know
118. 5:05what happens when I go to sleep I don't
119. 5:07remember
120. 5:08what I dream about very very rare
121. 5:10sometimes I have little snatches
122. 5:13but I have people like Jerry Conlin
123. 5:14who's been out Jerry Conlin refuses to
124. 5:16stay in a hotel room with me
125. 5:18he says you're crazy when you go to
126. 5:20sleep Jerry tomlin's another victim
127. 5:22and as he says in my sleep I'm killing
128. 5:25people I'm slicing people I'm kicking
129. 5:27I'm screaming I don't remember any of
130. 5:30this but what I do remember is when I
131. 5:32wake him up
132. 5:34when I come round and
133. 5:36the blood is pumping through your veins
134. 5:39and the tension and the adrenaline flow
135. 5:42and all I think about is walking into
136. 5:45that police station in Queens Road and
137. 5:47Austin and Birmingham
138. 5:49just like one of them like Arnie and
139. 5:51what have been one of them filmed with a
140. 5:52big machine gun and gone here take this
141. 5:54and shooting everyone and believe me I
142. 5:57sit there and I smell at it and do you
143. 6:00recognize that that is extraordinarily
144. 6:02damaging to you exactly exactly I mean
145. 6:05that is corrosive you are trapped I know
146. 6:08I'm trapped but one of the things that I
147. 6:11can't get out of my head that triggers
148. 6:12it all the time
149. 6:13what I can't forget is that I'm an I
150. 6:17went into the police station I've never
151. 6:18been arrested I went into a police
152. 6:20station on my own free will be
153. 6:23eliminated from their inquiries
154. 6:25I'd already been eliminated by special
155. 6:28Brands a quarter past six
156. 6:31at Hyson police station
157. 6:33they told the Haitian police to let us
158. 6:35go T14 the security forced in the north
159. 6:38of Ireland told him to let us go they
160. 6:40knew he'd be war and we weren't involved
161. 6:43life brought us around the British army
162. 6:44fighting the Iowa then
163. 6:46and this of course happened in November
164. 6:501974 but you speak to me as though you
165. 6:53can still feel the pain of that
166. 6:56you bet I can't forget it you used a big
167. 6:59word you called it Torture we're talking
168. 7:02about Britain we're talking about a
169. 7:05country which has signed every single
170. 7:07International Convention against the use
171. 7:10of torture exactly and still being used
172. 7:15you know they just taught they told us
173. 7:16right from the beginning what they were
174. 7:18going to do with this
175. 7:19and that's exactly what they did they
176. 7:21had a free hand
177. 7:22do you remember
178. 7:25signing the confession the whole point
179. 7:28of their operation on you is to get you
180. 7:31to sign a piece of paper that's right
181. 7:34they told me to say it under the the
182. 7:35right hand corner of the at the top of
183. 7:37the page under the caution and the
184. 7:39bottom right hand corner I never sanded
185. 7:42Troopers didn't say me and Jerry Hunter
186. 7:44the other four did
187. 7:46they send false confessions
188. 7:48and when you look at the confessions a
189. 7:51blind man can see thought that a Lord of
190. 7:53Robbies and one confession there's a 12
191. 7:56or 14 bombs and another one there's
192. 7:58eight and Johnny Walkers is two brown
193. 8:01paper bags that pop parcels
194. 8:04come belly power statement the bombs of
195. 8:06Prelude said that the mulberry bush but
196. 8:09an actual Factor were put inside and
197. 8:12what matters more to you what damaged
198. 8:14you more because we've talked about the
199. 8:15corrosive anger what damaged you more
200. 8:17was it all of that that went with the
201. 8:21gross Injustice that was done to you or
202. 8:24was it then living in a prison system
203. 8:28which you've described as evil as a
204. 8:31living hell for 16 and a half years
205. 8:34afterward which was in the end worse for
206. 8:37you to live with
207. 8:40uh the Cubs
208. 8:43that's the hardest part
209. 8:45uh I can't speak on behalf of the other
210. 8:48five uh only in respect of the fact that
211. 8:51the other five don't have any criminal
212. 8:52convictions
213. 8:53I'd been in trouble with the police
214. 8:55before I've been in trouble in place and
215. 8:56take them over to the country since 1960
216. 8:58and violence was nothing new to me you
217. 9:01were a criminal no I wasn't I was
218. 9:03fighting and you know the usual and
219. 9:05Petty things you know uh would you call
220. 9:08it the so I'd been in prison for
221. 9:10stubborn people and slicing people so I
222. 9:13knew what prison life was about but I
223. 9:15accepted because you weren't a nice guy
224. 9:18oh no no I tell people everywhere like I
225. 9:20was not a good guy
226. 9:22I would have sliced you as quick as look
227. 9:23at you and I'd been in prison so I was
228. 9:26you I knew what prison life was about
229. 9:27but at least I was guilty of it
230. 9:30and it's acceptable uh you heard this
231. 9:32fallacy about everybody in jail claimed
232. 9:34their innocent that's a load of rubbish
233. 9:36most people that are guilty will tell
234. 9:39you they're guilty and they could just
235. 9:40buy their heads and get over it and for
236. 9:43so-called professional criminals going
237. 9:45to prison is like paying tax
238. 9:48that's part of the job and they accept
239. 9:50it but they don't cry and moan about it
240. 9:52but when you're innocent whoa and of
241. 9:55course when you're in prison and you
242. 9:57tell them you're innocent
243. 9:59the only thing you're guaranteed is a
244. 10:01hard time on the merry-go-round
245. 10:04and I had plenty of that moving from one
246. 10:06prison to another
247. 10:07out of the 16 and a half years that I
248. 10:09was in prison I probably spent at least
249. 10:11eight of that in solitary confinement
250. 10:14because I wouldn't conform to the prison
251. 10:16system
252. 10:18prison conditions you
253. 10:20so subtly you don't even know you're
254. 10:23being conditioned
255. 10:25it's like a soldier the only thing is a
256. 10:28soldier has a choice it joins the army
257. 10:30of his own free will
258. 10:32but when he joins the army
259. 10:34on Monday they don't send them to Iraq
260. 10:37or Afghanistan on the Tuesday
261. 10:40they train them to what he's going to be
262. 10:42involved in to the best of their ability
263. 10:45so he knows what he's getting in with us
264. 10:48we were just suddenly plucked off and
265. 10:50then thrown into the prison system and
266. 10:52we were the most head of prisoners in
267. 10:53the prison system prison officers were
268. 10:56offering people hundreds of pounds to
269. 10:57stab us
270. 10:59they were putting in our food
271. 11:01spitting in our food during Newton and
272. 11:04it's you you name it we had it all
273. 11:06putting glass in it
274. 11:07when you went out and accessories yard
275. 11:09were thrown out jam jars full of excreta
276. 11:11trying to Smite them against your head
277. 11:13when you walked on yet by the prisoners
278. 11:15this is what we had to contend with
279. 11:1824 7 in the prison system
280. 11:22but as I say you become conditioned
281. 11:25to live in prison and it's like a
282. 11:27soldier who's living in a battle and in
283. 11:30a battle Zone
284. 11:31hey sooner or later he'll adopt his
285. 11:34surroundings he has to if he wants to
286. 11:36survive and we have to do to see him and
287. 11:39prison not only that but prison kills
288. 11:41your emotions you die a little bit every
289. 11:43day and then one day you waking up don't
290. 11:46ask me what day but one day you were
291. 11:49waking up and you know that you are
292. 11:51changed forever you know that nothing
293. 11:53will ever ever hurt you again
294. 11:56you named specifically named several
295. 12:00police officers whom you say were
296. 12:05specifically responsible for
297. 12:08manufacturing evidence everywhere losing
298. 12:10you would it have made a difference to
299. 12:13you if those individuals had been
300. 12:16pursued through the court oh definitely
301. 12:18definitely that's you know that's the
302. 12:20one thing that we thought and when we
303. 12:22had five of them charged uh two of them
304. 12:24the charges against two of them were
305. 12:25dropped after I think it was the third
306. 12:27court appearance
307. 12:29and the other three carried on
308. 12:31and
309. 12:33after about the sixth or seventh
310. 12:35appearance they were appearing at their
311. 12:37solar Crown Court in London
312. 12:39and then after the sixth or seventh
313. 12:41appearance suddenly
314. 12:44a magistrate from outside greater London
315. 12:47said that day
316. 12:49and he made a ruling that they wouldn't
317. 12:51get a fair Trail because of all the
318. 12:54adverse publicity
319. 12:57adverse publicity
320. 12:59hey
321. 13:01before I even set foot in the court
322. 13:04you had the assistant chief Constable
323. 13:05mortis Buckman World television telling
324. 13:08everybody we caught the people who done
325. 13:10it the covered from head to toe
326. 13:12nitroglycerin
327. 13:14adverse publicity
328. 13:17so please how does it work for couples
329. 13:19doesn't work for us the public
330. 13:21and remember one thing
331. 13:23we're all supposed to be equal under the
332. 13:25eyes of the law
333. 13:27what Appliance do you applies to me
334. 13:29applies to everybody right across the
335. 13:31board but in this country no there's two
336. 13:34sets of laws one for them and one for us
337. 13:36in the public
338. 13:37but I come back to that word
339. 13:39reconciliation clearly
340. 13:42these men abused the notion of justice
341. 13:45and they abused you but in the end
342. 13:49wouldn't it be in your interest in Paddy
343. 13:51Hill's interest
344. 13:53to get beyond that maybe maybe even to
345. 13:56find a way years after
346. 13:58to come to terms with it even to forgive
347. 14:01well quite a few of them are dead and I
348. 14:03saw you couldn't do nothing about them
349. 14:04you know
350. 14:05how given the strength of that how do
351. 14:10you relate to family how do you relate
352. 14:13to friends now now that you are and have
353. 14:16been for a long time a free man uh my
354. 14:20own family my kids
355. 14:22uh
356. 14:24when I when I got out
357. 14:27you come and you see your kids and
358. 14:30just like talking to strangers
359. 14:33in fact you'd rather be in the company
360. 14:35of strangers because you don't expect
361. 14:37nothing from strangers you'd rather be
362. 14:39in the Courtney strangers than being a
363. 14:41company of my family I realized that
364. 14:44very shortly after I got out and
365. 14:47I felt nothing for them
366. 14:49and I had to tell my kids that in fact
367. 14:52they came about through an argument
368. 14:54and my daughter just went into one she
369. 14:56started screaming at me and she was
370. 14:58crying hysterically and she said me Dad
371. 15:01you come up here
372. 15:03said you spend a half an hour with us
373. 15:05says and then you go and don't drive for
374. 15:07hours to your prison to spend time with
375. 15:09people
376. 15:10I said I don't have many memories of you
377. 15:12before you went away and I've waited 16
378. 15:14and a half years for you to come home
379. 15:16said and you've been here just over a
380. 15:18year it doesn't let me tell you
381. 15:19something says I'm never going to get
382. 15:21you back he says I don't know what's
383. 15:23happened to you I don't know where you
384. 15:24belong
385. 15:33but as you said you don't belong to us
386. 15:36could you say nothing back to her
387. 15:40I just stood there
388. 15:43and I bust into tears
389. 15:46that means nothing for you and I still
390. 15:49don't feel nothing from my kids
391. 15:52my Facebook
392. 15:54sorry
393. 15:56I feel so sorry for them because they
394. 15:58never ever gonna have a relationship
395. 16:00with me
396. 16:01but never how can you know that I mean
397. 16:04it is 20 years you've been wrestling
398. 16:07with
399. 16:08the deepest feelings
400. 16:11but is there not a part of you
401. 16:13that does believe you can
402. 16:16reconnect
403. 16:18it's too far it's gone too long
404. 16:23if I had some help when I first came out
405. 16:25maybe
406. 16:26but now
407. 16:29I don't think so
408. 16:32what about the others in the Birmingham
409. 16:35six one is now dead but yeah Mitchell
410. 16:38died five years ago is there anything
411. 16:40you get from talking to them because
412. 16:43after all they are the men who've been
413. 16:45through the same experience you've been
414. 16:47through
415. 16:48no because I hardly ever speak to my
416. 16:50Jerry Hunter I believe is living
417. 16:52somewhere in Portugal
418. 16:54I haven't seen the last time myself I've
419. 16:56seen Jerry once
420. 16:59in about 10 years in opposite Richard's
421. 17:01Funeral
422. 17:02and Ireland when he died five years ago
423. 17:04and uh
424. 17:06Johnny Walker I haven't seen Johnny for
425. 17:08about 10. I've seen him at the funeral
426. 17:10as well that was the first time I've
427. 17:11seen John even about five years and I
428. 17:13haven't seen him since
429. 17:15and I haven't seen it all for about 10
430. 17:18years
431. 17:19and is that because you don't want to uh
432. 17:22I'm too busy getting on with my own
433. 17:24thing and trying to keep myself together
434. 17:26and I know that they're all having their
435. 17:27own problems I hope this doesn't sound
436. 17:29right but you know what's in my mind
437. 17:32an image of of Nelson Mandela locked up
438. 17:35for so long by the apartheid regime in
439. 17:39South Africa
440. 17:40who'd suffered terrible things at the
441. 17:43hands government
442. 17:45he came out and his message was one of
443. 17:48reconciliation
444. 17:50Truth and Reconciliation
445. 17:53does that mean anything to you
446. 17:56no
447. 17:57because the one thing you'll never get
448. 17:58from the British establishment is the
449. 18:00truth
450. 18:02the British establishment as far as I am
451. 18:04concerned is one of the most dirtiest
452. 18:05evilest corrupted perverted
453. 18:07establishments in the world
454. 18:09and I say that without any fear of
455. 18:11contradiction but can you not in any way
456. 18:14after all this time distance yourself a
457. 18:17little bit from the terrible things that
458. 18:19happen to you and understand
459. 18:21why things happen I mean for example in
460. 18:241974 understand that
461. 18:28in Britain there was a profound fear of
462. 18:31Ira bombs the police were under enormous
463. 18:34pressure dozens and dozens of innocent
464. 18:36people were being killed and that's why
465. 18:39in the end the police were desperate to
466. 18:43nail somebody from the crime of the
467. 18:45Birmingham public does that not make any
468. 18:47difference do you putting it into some
469. 18:48sort of a context no why should it
470. 18:52just because the police were on the
471. 18:53price they didn't go and torture people
472. 18:55and frame and fed them up and send them
473. 18:56to jail ruined their legs their families
474. 18:58lays does that give the people in
475. 19:00Ireland the right to go out and kill
476. 19:01soldiers
477. 19:03which you condemn because they killed
478. 19:05people in Ireland Tit for Tat no way
479. 19:09it doesn't work that way after all you
480. 19:11want to remember we paid the police for
481. 19:14the do a job and to do it properly
482. 19:16we expect him to be honest
483. 19:19we don't expect them to then become the
484. 19:22terrorists and the torturers and if they
485. 19:25do then something should be done about
486. 19:26it I want to ask you something else
487. 19:29which is connected but a little bit
488. 19:31different it's about
489. 19:33the political mood and whether you see
490. 19:36any parallels between the 1970s when you
491. 19:39were a young man from Northern Ireland
492. 19:41trying to make a living in England at a
493. 19:45time when there was profound public fear
494. 19:47of Northern Irish terrorism or in
495. 19:50Mainland Britain whether you see any
496. 19:52parallels with what we've seen in the
497. 19:55last decade profound fear in Western
498. 19:58Community of profound fear of Jihadi
499. 20:01islamist Terror and laws passed
500. 20:05anti-terror laws passed policing
501. 20:07operations undertaken which
502. 20:10some in the Muslim Community have
503. 20:13claimed were discriminatory toward them
504. 20:15do you see parallels oh yeah but the
505. 20:18Irish yeah I've been saying it for years
506. 20:20I've been standing for the last 10 years
507. 20:23the same thing is going to happen to the
508. 20:25Muslim communities that's what happened
509. 20:26to the Irish the only thing is as I tell
510. 20:29people when I'm speaking don't do to the
511. 20:31Muslim Community what you did to the
512. 20:33Aries they allowed the Irish communities
513. 20:35in England to be isolated
514. 20:38don't do it to the Muslim Community
515. 20:39because that only breeds terrorism
516. 20:42before we end I want to just quote to
517. 20:45you something that you said as you
518. 20:47walked out of that court 20 years ago
519. 20:51high on adrenaline
520. 20:53you were very angry and you explained to
521. 20:56the public how you'd been scapegoated
522. 20:58and misused but you also said
523. 21:00now it's our turn exactly to tell the
524. 21:04public the truth and I've been doing it
525. 21:07and telling it the public since a day I
526. 21:09got out
527. 21:10of how rotten evil and corrupt and I'll
528. 21:13tell you what you see when I get people
529. 21:15come to me as just uh
530. 21:17a member of the family's just been as
531. 21:20they claim being fitted up just been
532. 21:22found guilty and they're innocent right
533. 21:24and I tell the people listen
534. 21:27you see the government you see all the
535. 21:29so-called good people
536. 21:31but when you go to them you're going to
537. 21:33be very very shocked and you're going to
538. 21:36be sickened by the response you get from
539. 21:38the good people because the people that
540. 21:39you think are there to help you will
541. 21:41turn their back on you but there's a
542. 21:44good side of it you're going to get help
543. 21:46from the most unexpected sources you
544. 21:48ever thought of and that's perfectly
545. 21:50true and let me tell you something we
546. 21:52didn't get out of court we didn't get
547. 21:55our convictions overturned because of
548. 21:57the government or the courts
549. 21:59I'll tell you what we got our conviction
550. 22:01of returned public outcry
551. 22:04the one thing about the British public
552. 22:05when they see an injustice they are not
553. 22:08afraid to stand up and scream about it
554. 22:10and thank God we were put into prison
555. 22:13just
556. 22:15satisfy and to Quail public outcry
557. 22:19and in the end it was the public outcry
558. 22:22that got us back out again
559. 22:24Patty Hill thank you very much for being
560. 22:27on hard talk it's been a pleasure
561. 22:28Stephen thank you for inviting me thank
562. 22:30you very much
563. 22:33[Music]