YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → Out of control? Mark Zuckerberg and the power of Facebook

Out of control? Mark Zuckerberg and the power of Facebook — Transcript

by FRANCE 24 English · 7,466 words · 1,084 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:02now that we've heard the apologies let's
0:05cut to the essential is Facebook out of
0:08control on the first of two days of
0:10testimony on Capitol Hill the social
0:11networks 33 year old founder and CEO
0:13Mark Zuckerberg certainly convinced Wall
0:15Street Facebook's worth soared by five
0:17billion dollars in five hours Zuckerberg
0:20says it doesn't feel like his empire
0:22constitutes a monopoly he insists he's
0:25hard at work trying to keep up with the
0:28kind of targeted content that may have
0:30undermined the u.s. election fanned the
0:32flames of intolerance during the brexit
0:35vote or more recently helped egg on a
0:38genocide in Myanmar Zuckerberg claims he
0:42is for regulation but under certain
0:45conditions what our lawmakers going to
0:48do about it in the u.s. well probably
0:51not much
0:52what with deregulation religion for many
0:55under Trump and the current majority but
0:57what about Europe and the rest of the
0:59world what to do how to go about it and
1:02well is it already too late for a human
1:05race that may cheer when they hear news
1:08of a delete Facebook hashtag but is
1:11doing well almost nothing about growing
1:15it's a growing curbing a growing social
1:19media addiction today in the france24
1:21debate is Facebook out of control
1:23Facebook which by the way declined our
1:26invitation to join us there lost because
1:28with us we have Sebastian Callen CEO and
1:30founder of how do you pronounce it map
1:32stir map sir what does mobster do map
1:34sir is a place one app to save all your
1:37favorite places all over the world the
1:39one that friends told you about you want
1:41to remember and to share that with your
1:43friends we don't trust it once ok with
1:45your trusted friends we'll pick up on
1:47that point a little bit later on Fadwa
1:49adaboost co-founder of zayeed o which is
1:52an anonymous it's basically like a forum
1:55kind of concept right as i do is the
1:57first social anonymous social network
2:00completely dedicated to due to the
2:03professional area it's so professionals
2:06can exchange about what it's like in
2:07their workplace yeah professional who
2:09are working in the same industry can
2:11exchange messages about
2:13so their career promotions salary is
2:17evolution etcetera all right and with us
2:20as well is a fabulous Belvoir lecture
2:23and who teaches information warfare at
2:26the French political science institute
2:27Aeons paul also an entrepreneur your
2:29co-founder of yoga sha which does well
2:32it's a platform where you as a company
2:35you can ask a community-made of ethical
2:38hackers to find security flaws and they
2:40will sell it to you it's called bug
2:42Bunty all right so you test test your
2:45cybersecurity you're defending their
2:47immunity approach from San Francisco
2:50California Peter Eckersley chief
2:52computer scientist at the Electronic
2:55Frontier Foundation thank you for
2:58joining us to defend the rights and
3:06liberties of ordinary people and
3:08Internet users in this modern era as the
3:11web focused book on privacy and freedom
3:14of speech and on getting the design and
3:16balance right with new artificial
3:18intelligence privacy versus freedom of
3:21speech something we'll be talking about
3:23the france24 debate on facebook and
3:25twitter the hashtag f2 for debate in the
3:28wake of the cambridge analytic a scandal
3:30where facebook gave away the data of an
3:32untold number of users to political
3:34consultants said political consultants
3:36who then targeted those users with
3:40customized messages and ads and also
3:43that us special investigator looking
3:45into Russian troll farms it's day two of
3:48testimony for Mark Zuckerberg this time
3:52before a committee of the House of
3:54Representatives to counter fake news and
3:57the invasion of privacy
3:59Zuckerberg answer on Tuesday before the
4:02Senate was well you need more algorithms
4:06and computer generated controls so we've
4:11deployed new AI tools that do a better
4:14job of identifying fake accounts that
4:17may be trying to interfere in elections
4:19or spread misinformation the nature of
4:22these attacks though is that you know
4:25there are people in Russia whose
4:26job it is is to try to exploit our
4:28systems and other internet systems and
4:30other systems as well so this is an arms
4:32race I mean they're gonna keep on
4:34getting better at this and we need to
4:36invest in keeping getting better at this
4:37- it sounds like kind of like an arms
4:41race between him and the Russians what
4:44did you think of what you just started
4:45there well Facebook site it's definitely
4:47an arm race when it comes to social
4:50control and they are defining this
4:52global social infrastructure within
4:56Facebook they are deeply in rooted
4:59American this way of life like for
5:02example community as a social contract
5:04in the melting pathway and a free speech
5:08in the sense of the First Amendment and
5:10those value have expand globally using
5:13Facebook for example in France we are
5:15not facing real problems when it comes
5:18to freedom of speech because we don't
5:19really have the same kind of freedom of
5:21speech as the Americans but we now gave
5:24the French population the American Way
5:27of freedom speech and is causing a real
5:29problem we also gave the French
5:31population the melting pot a melting pot
5:33concept easy to create communities and
5:36to live inside a community which it is
5:38not at all the French were living and
5:40this has been going on globally social
5:43Facebook is becoming a global social
5:46infrastructure but his his the way he
5:50describes it how look I'm in a race with
5:52the Russians to try to keep keep
5:55everything aboveboard well I guess Mark
5:58Zuckerberg sees Facebook as the ultimate
6:01soft power tool for the US and it is
6:04probably going to become this will you
6:08convince Peter Eckersley about what you
6:10just heard
6:11what's talking about is saying is that
6:13he's going to try to use artificial
6:15intelligence to recognize fabricated
6:18news and propaganda and other forms of
6:20abusive content and the reality is that
6:24President artificial intelligence
6:26technologies have the reading
6:28comprehension ability of a second grader
6:30in primary school elementary school now
6:32that's very impressive
6:34have a a machine learning algorithm read
6:37as well as a child is very impressive
6:40but it's not going to be at all adequate
6:43for telling the difference between
6:47propaganda and parody or telling the
6:51difference between bullying and bragging
6:54and so if facebook yours ahead with this
6:57arms rights and they use artificial
6:59intelligence what we're going to see is
7:01enormous numbers people look at people's
7:04legitimate speech being censored by an
7:06algorithm and that's completely
7:09unacceptable what Facebook needs to do
7:11if they're going to go down this path of
7:14moderating all the content on that
7:16platform is they need to make sure they
7:18have real humans with journalism and
7:20literature background and cultural
7:22awareness to every other and in fairness
7:24Mark Zuckerberg did say he was gonna
7:26hire what some 30,000 extra people yes
7:31and he'll need to make sure that those
7:32people are working on the terrible
7:35working conditions which is you if you
7:37read the reports with the contractors
7:39who are currently doing this work the
7:41the job is terrible it leads to massive
7:44significant mental health problems
7:45straight away I think there's a you know
7:47a role for European regulators and
7:52European government to hold Facebook
7:54accountable for what it's doing with
7:57this suppose take care will you agree
8:00hmm that's a very hard subject I mean
8:04obviously can't be done all by human so
8:07for me that the point is we have on
8:10Facebook is the exact same thing that we
8:12have an Internet and people are internet
8:14can see a lot of news and some of them
8:17are fake some of them are I don't know
8:19you know just propaganda some of them
8:21are very reliable force but you can't
8:23really know on the internet that's your
8:25issue with the internet so you have just
8:27the same thing on Facebook so the
8:29question is do Facebook have a
8:32responsibility with that and do the need
8:35to file the solutions themselves or is
8:37it so net as the internet globally who
8:40needs to find a solution or an easy to
8:42you man or is it you know computerized I
8:45mean it's not the point for me the the
8:47real question is who's only if it's up
8:49to the user to be discerning is what
8:51you're arguing it would be it would be
8:53of course
8:53that very hard because you're impacted
8:56in your the way you read news you're
8:58impacted with your friends with the
8:59likes with the aggregation from Facebook
9:02Google Twitter and anything so so it's
9:05very hard for us the user as users to
9:08make our own judgment so the whole point
9:10is who can help us and how and easy
9:13Facebook I don't know and is it a I or
9:16is it human really I don't know you for
9:18you the jury's out on this yeah for me
9:21that the real question is whose job it
9:23is to control the media on the internet
9:25and media in facebook outside Facebook
9:27in Google in Twitter in Instagram in
9:29every platform I mean we haven't an
9:31issue with source and real ability of
9:34the information we have an Internet
9:36fatwa a de Bush we should I think that
9:40we should remind the public that before
9:43the internet was anonymous and because
9:47of tools like Facebook and YouTube etc
9:50it's becoming more and more it's
9:53becoming more and more clear during the
9:55first decade it was more forums and
9:59exactly it was anonymous users weren't
10:02forced to to display their identity
10:08publicly so that's why today I think
10:11tools like zidle or others like escape
10:15or blind in the US are trying to go back
10:20to the anonymity era and the to the
10:25users want that anonymity don't users
10:28you know you've been on a nice vacation
10:29somewhere sunny you want to show off and
10:32say hey everybody look where I've been I
10:33think it depends on the tool I think for
10:39example for the workplace it's very
10:40important to be anonymous because it
10:45allow more free from a more speech
10:48freedom and more access to the
10:51information and I think today people are
10:55very very aware of the importance of
10:58data privacy and
11:02I think maybe the solution today is to
11:04go back to this anonymity era where
11:10anonymity is a really interesting topic
11:12on the Internet
11:13there is a very famous place for
11:16anonymity called 4chan and lots of stuff
11:19came out of 4chan anonymous some of them
11:22yeah for certain activities it's really
11:24interesting meansa came out of anonymity
11:27it's a very interesting cultural
11:29phenomenon the anonymous the the
11:32activist anonymous came out of this so
11:34there's lots of interesting thing coming
11:36out of anonymity but to follow up on
11:39your or on your analysis we knew before
11:43that before Facebook an internet
11:45centered on content and we now live
11:47since facebook on an Internet centered
11:50on people and it's a very different
11:52Internet and the internet centered of
11:55people is really changing the way people
11:57assemble the way commedia created and
12:00the way the social infrastructure in
12:02every different culture every different
12:04country is created and is changing today
12:07and Facebook has a huge impact on this
12:09and it's definitely out of control
12:11thanks god Facebook being in control on
12:14the way people assemble themself
12:16worldwide would be terrifying Peter
12:19Eckersley we have a comment on the
12:20hashtag f2 for debate I'm gonna read to
12:22you Zuckerberg said for quote security
12:25reasons Facebook tracks which webpages
12:27you visit even when you're signed out he
12:29said it was like self evidence how does
12:32it benefit me to be trapped we believe
12:36that it does have an enormous all over
12:42the web for sucking up data about not
12:46just what you do on facebook.com and
12:48maybe there are some arguments having
12:50Facebook know what you do on
12:52facebook.com can benefit you but
12:54Facebook sees every time you see the
12:56like button whether you click it or not
12:58Facebook is in a position to measure
13:00what page you're on and they've also
13:03purchased this company called Atlas
13:05which is an advertising network with
13:07billions of ads sure and every day all
13:09over every time you see one of those
13:11happens Facebook is cracking here and we
13:14believe we to win
13:15which Facebook would to which Facebook
13:17would answer hey it's free to use the
13:20service there has to be some trade-offs
13:21so we can make money delay run
13:25advertising on facebook.com and maybe
13:27that's fine we recommend that people
13:28install privacy protection till we make
13:30one ourselves of privacy badger that
13:32watch that third-party tracking it
13:35doesn't do very much yet to block
13:37tracking on facebook.com maybe we need
13:40to do more there as well but at least on
13:42Facebook thumb you know that that's the
13:44bargain you didn't sign up to be tracked
13:48on on the Mon or France 24 you know my
13:53facebook and that's what's what's
13:55happening I think we need to just take
13:58steps to prevent that CBS interviewed a
14:01former Facebook platforms operations
14:03manager who explained how the network
14:05wasn't built with user privacy in mind
14:10it's important to remember that apps on
14:12facebook when you use them they ask you
14:15for permission to access specific kinds
14:18of data you know whether it's your name
14:19or your email address or your friend
14:21lists or photos or other information and
14:24once you once you click allow or tap
14:27allow all that information passes from
14:30Facebook to the application developer
14:33and the problem is that once the data
14:35goes to the developer there's no insight
14:38into what the developers doing with the
14:39data and there's no control by Facebook
14:42as to what they do it you know this has
14:44been a known problem since this has been
14:48a known problem since 2010 he says but
14:52the privacy settings were really changed
14:55in 2015 is there discrepancies Mark
15:00Zuckerberg telling PI's I mean very
15:04important with what he says there
15:06because when we have three actors we
15:09have Facebook we have the developers and
15:11we have the users and what I've been
15:12told here is that the user below the
15:16developer or Facebook to give his
15:18information to the developers and then
15:21issue that Facebook have is that they
15:23can't control what is going on with
15:25these data afterwards but
15:27the the user was asked for this data and
15:30he said hello and he said yes I want to
15:33give that data to this developer so the
15:36reach issue is here I mean it's not just
15:39Facebook and of course Facebook had an
15:41issue with this kind of it let's access
15:43data from your friends and that's what
15:46has been changed in 2014 or 15 and now -
15:50for developer because as for myself I'm
15:53a developer and with map sir we access
15:56some Facebook information because we
15:58want for our users to have a quick
16:00access to the app with just one button
16:02click connect and and we access the name
16:06first name last name and picture of the
16:08user and for that we need their
16:11permission and if we want to access for
16:13example the friends of our users the
16:16Friends of Facebook we need them to say
16:18yes I'm going to give you access to my
16:21friends but I will only have access to
16:23those friends who have already accepted
16:25to be on master so it's very very
16:27limited now I mean it was not before - -
16:31- and 2015 but it really is limited now
16:34yeah one one reaction on the hashtag F -
16:36for debate the Zuckerberg witch-hunt is
16:37a smokescreen
16:38the truly illegal damage is done by
16:40those down the line like Cambridge
16:41analytical that's that consultancy we
16:44were talking about all the stuff we put
16:46on Facebook is out there and we know it
16:47and that's what we've always wanted
16:48because what it's 87 million people who
16:51are getting or 87 million users who are
16:54getting these letters saying or whatever
16:57these announcements saying watch out
16:59your privacy may have been tampered with
17:00but it wasn't 87 million people who read
17:04to give their their data away it was not
17:06a much smaller number but friends of
17:08friends of users not friends of friends
17:11just friends of users right those
17:13friends of users did not accept but
17:16their friends their users they said yeah
17:18I'm going to give my friends data and
17:21that's a real issue and that's what I
17:23would have been changing into and - 13
17:26are we letting facebook off the hook a
17:28little too lightly if we're saying look
17:30it's the fault really of third parties
17:34that abused the data can I just want to
17:39go back
17:40what my colleague said I think that the
17:43problem here is that yes user accepts to
17:47to that Facebook gets access to the
17:52positions and it's all the other
17:54information but I think the users aren't
17:58aware of how this data will be used
18:00after and I think that that's the
18:02problem
18:03I think it's more it's more is it's
18:07easier to accept the that's a facebook
18:11access to accede to you to this
18:14information but I think it should be
18:18there should be more work about
18:21explaining how this data will be used
18:23after I can say is no point of view it's
18:26called informed consent and this was
18:28nothing like information but what
18:30Facebook was doing or is doing right now
18:33with our data nobody really knows and
18:35nobody really knows how to read those
18:37users agreement because it's way too
18:40complex so lots of people have been
18:43giving away information without really
18:45realizing not only what they were giving
18:47but what could be done with those
18:49personal information and Cambridge
18:50analytic is definitely proving that
18:52really nasty things can happen with your
18:54personal information not only for you
18:56but for the whole community for the
18:58whole democracy and when we come back
19:00we're gonna see how this has people
19:02worried all over the world in places
19:04where you have elections coming up like
19:06India and Brazil stay with us you're
19:08watching the france24 today
19:15[Music]
19:23welcome back or welcome if you're just
19:25joining us
19:25it's the france24 debates and we're
19:27speaking as Mark Zuckerberg speaks
19:31before lawmakers in the US Capitol for
19:36apologies saying perhaps that there
19:38should be some form of regulation we'll
19:42ask our panel where that regulation
19:46should come from and in what form with
19:48us a Sebastien Cowell CEO and founder of
19:51mobster an application that helps you
19:55track where you're not tracked know it
19:58lets you bookmark all the places you
20:00want to remember in the future either
20:02places you went and you loved it and you
20:04you just want to remember those places
20:05because it was no trip or something like
20:07that or because someone told you about
20:09like this new bar or you just read a
20:11magazine and you see this fabulous place
20:13you want to try or for your next action
20:14so just like a very big bookmark map
20:17where you're going to save all your
20:19places and then share those places with
20:22your friends if you want to not all the
20:24social networks by the way our American
20:27Fadwa da bouche yours is called zayeed
20:31Oh first anonymous social network about
20:36the workplace in Europe and the idea
20:41here is to allow professionals to talk
20:44about their career compensations it's a
20:48trap freely and honestly without a fear
20:51in the hierarchy is it for example all
20:54right with us as well sublease if it
20:55were no teachers at the French Political
20:57Science Institute sensible co-founder of
21:00yoga Shah which tests the cybersecurity
21:02for firms of with with the aid of raging
21:06white hat hackers community and from
21:10Pittsburgh not San Francisco is Peter
21:13Eckersley chief computer scientists at
21:15the Electronic Frontier Foundation
21:18welcome back to the show Peter we were
21:22talking yes I normally San Francisco
21:24normally San Francisco today Pittsburgh
21:26Pittsburgh which is also a big tech hub
21:28by the way Facebook Abia moth by the way
21:32that also owns Instagram
21:34SAP that controls 80% of social media
21:37traffic on mobile phones says French
21:40newspaper - moans now in this new age
21:43for global capitalism where information
21:45is the commodity the power of a
21:48Zuckerberg is sometimes compared to that
21:51in his day of a Rockefeller / Big Oil
21:55you don't think you have a monopoly all
21:59right certainly doesn't feel like that
22:00to me okay all right chuckles there from
22:05Senator Lindsey Graham
22:06but tell me Peter Eckersley does Mark
22:10Zuckerberg have a monopoly well it's
22:13gotta be awfully close because there are
22:15a lot of things that Facebook does for
22:17people that it does honestly quite well
22:19and there's work well because all your
22:22friends are already there and so the
22:24challenge for a new company to come in
22:26and organize event invitations and
22:30finding an online connection with
22:32someone you just met at a party and
22:34having the stream of information about
22:35your photos from your friends lives all
22:38of those things having to be able to do
22:39them all at once is a very daunting
22:41challenge for a new company to enter the
22:44market when those companies have
22:45appeared like Instagram or whatsapp
22:47Facebook has bought them and so I do
22:50think that it appears as though Facebook
22:52has built a durable position of market
22:55power maybe not a monopoly maybe a
22:57monopoly but definitely enormous market
22:59power fed why is it a monopoly I think
23:04that Facebook has today I think 40 40
23:10more than around 40% of the social
23:15network market today so and you think
23:19yourself or power tomb that's great or
23:22wish I wish I could could have those
23:25kinds of numbers or do you save itself
23:27hey wait a minute that's too much I
23:28think that concurrence is competition
23:32competition is always good for the
23:36market and people should have the right
23:39to choose between many tools instead of
23:43being some somehow forced to use the one
23:47one too
23:48Sebastiao I've got more mixed feelings
23:52about it I mean I'm not sure if on
23:54Facebook but what what do we define the
23:58market I mean for to define a monopoly
23:59we need to define the market first Anna
24:01and what is the market of Facebook
24:03that's very huge and for me we are
24:05talking about a free product for users
24:07so to change from this product to
24:10another product would be very easy user
24:12so of course all your friends are not on
24:14others other networks but the issue is
24:17not having friends there it's having had
24:19in value and for now there haven't been
24:22any other network bringing enough added
24:25value for the users to change platform
24:27so the issue is not is not about really
24:29the silo of course it's it's big it's
24:31huge and we can be concerned about them
24:34buying other networks but if I believe
24:37them what whatsapp and Facebook are very
24:40separated and there is no transfer of
24:41data between them so it's the same
24:44company yeah is it good or not I don't
24:46know and I'm not here to judge and how
24:48about the how about the power of Mark
24:50Zuckerberg himself 33 years old and the
24:53set up at Facebook is such that he's the
24:56decision-maker nobody can really kick
24:57him out yeah even if they wanted to come
25:01one person of that much power in their
25:02hands that's a very big kitchen I mean
25:05Facebook here it's bigger than the
25:06country and has more power than the
25:09country so so how that it has to be you
25:12know decide and govern what should be
25:15the governement of something like that I
25:16don't know and but I think the subject
25:19is not just Facebook I mean the subject
25:21more prouder than that and it's really
25:24internet and Internet is so huge and
25:27there is so many freedom and internet
25:29that you can do a lot of great things
25:31but a lot of bad things to Facebook
25:33isn't part of that but all other
25:35companies are part of that too so the
25:37real question about data privacy about
25:39tracking is not just Facebook which
25:41brings us to the subject of the earth
25:43febrile TTIP at one of the European
25:46Union's reaction to the Cambridge
25:48analytical scandal has been we're gonna
25:51regulate well what are they gonna do
25:53well they're gonna apply the GDP are and
25:56explain with the GDP GDP are is a set of
25:58European laws that is going to be an
26:00application in France in a few weeks
26:02and basic the basic principle is that
26:05companies are in charge of protecting
26:08personal data and they cannot spread
26:12away personal data or have data leaks
26:14all over the place without facing
26:16consequences and very serious
26:18consequences things I can go up to four
26:21percent of the global earnings are from
26:24a company which Mark Zuckerberg by the
26:26way who in testimony a few hours ago
26:28before the house represent him saying
26:30quote he doesn't know when Facebook will
26:32launch those new European privacy
26:34controls but we're working on it well he
26:37better speed up things because the law
26:40will be an application in a few weeks
26:42and regulators in Europe will be
26:45ruthless with Facebook they are waiting
26:48to put Facebook control lots of people
26:51are waiting to trial Facebook and I
26:53guess the e FF here is very sorry to be
26:57only American for not being able to put
27:00her on Facebook in Europe and it's a
27:02good argument for the FF to come and
27:04Europe Peter Eckersley are you gonna
27:06take that up look we have some presence
27:10in Europe and we've been trying to work
27:11on the GDP are and how it interacts
27:13without do not track proposals and
27:15privacy better and so forth but I think
27:17there's a deeper question that goes
27:18beyond the GDP are that that Europe and
27:21and actually everyone on the planet
27:22needs to grapple with and that is what
27:25objective to giant corporations internet
27:28corporations advertising corporations
27:30like Facebook have from the market from
27:33capitalism and the objective they have
27:35right now is to make as much money as
27:37possible how do they make as much money
27:39as possible that they do that by making
27:41people spend as much time as possible on
27:43Facebook and click on as many ads as
27:46possible on Facebook and it was the
27:48optimization for that objective that
27:51created the incredible dangers that we
27:53see with this platform with billions of
27:55users sophisticated AI the ability to
27:58see people's reactions and optimize
28:00things and then they sell sold that
28:02apparatus to the highest bidder which in
28:05this case included Cambridge analytics
28:08and all these political campaigns that
28:10we're very uncomfortable with it you
28:12know brexit arguably is in part a
28:14consequence of
28:15the power of this optimization process
28:18that Facebook has and so I think the
28:20question we need to ask ourselves is can
28:22we change facebook's objective and if
28:25Zuckerberg says he will change the
28:27objective how do we hold him accountable
28:29to that when the market creates
28:31incentives to do potentially the wrong
28:34thing and if the Europeans regulate but
28:36not the Americans what happens
28:38I think European regulators have a great
28:42opportunity here because the United
28:44States has failed to do anything
28:46meaningful with consumer privacy
28:48regulation the u.s. ad companies have
28:53too much power in Washington DC it's too
28:55hard to pass legislation there sir
28:57there's an opportunity I think for
28:59Europe if they can get the GDP to be
29:01right to be technically realistic and
29:04the e privacy directive that will follow
29:06it also needs to give people meaningful
29:09control and not useless boxes that they
29:11have to check saying yes I agree to the
29:13cookies it has to be no yeah I don't
29:15want the cookies you have to not track
29:17me and that has to be a meaningful
29:18action the user can take and if that is
29:21available in Europe US companies will
29:23have to comply with it I think and it'll
29:26become the meaningful roles for both
29:28consonants silverstern Carolyn do you
29:30believe European regulators can get it
29:32right and can I hope though gdpr is very
29:37interesting issue and again remind
29:39people with GDP ours yeah well basically
29:41it's it's going to help users to know
29:44where are their data and what like what
29:46the company can do with that data and
29:48what are they going to use but but there
29:51is some very good effect with that
29:52there's also some very bad effects good
29:54effect is that it's going to help us as
29:57companies to build something people are
29:59going to trust because we are going to
30:02say we are GDP are compliant because we
30:04don't sell you data we don't give it
30:06away we protect it so you can trust us
30:09and that's very good because there is
30:10some so many bad you know companies are
30:13doing very wrong stuff with your data so
30:15that's that's perfect but on the other
30:16side it's going to do to create kanafeh
30:19I would say bad panic but you know a
30:21fear of tracking and some of the
30:24tracking are very very useful I mean
30:26every website owner not
30:28Facebook want to increase the time spent
30:32on your website want to increase the
30:35money he's going to have if it's if it's
30:36a setting with that and and so we all
30:39try to optimize our site put into it to
30:41do that that's dangerous
30:43what is that is interestingly well it's
30:47potentially dangerous to have these
30:48incredibly powerful platforms that are
30:51trying to optimize the amount of time
30:53that users spend and of course we
30:55understand why you do this and the
30:57market gives you an incentive to do this
30:58to get paid but it may be the wrong
31:00thing to be paid for we might need to go
31:02back and say it would be better for a
31:04user to spend five minutes on the
31:06website rather than an hour and find
31:08that time satisfying and productive and
31:10get what they wanted and then leave to
31:11do something else shops I mean in in
31:17stores in real life in stores they don't
31:20have any impact on our politics there
31:22are no very minimal impact they have a
31:24very minimal impact on social structure
31:27when you go to the supermarket or the
31:28garden store they do everything in a
31:34don't they had nothing to do with
31:36political elections they don't set the
31:40rules of social relationship in a
31:42foreign country they respect some sort
31:45of sovereignty
31:45it's a totally different story so the
31:48issue is not really also how they work
31:51it's what the power we're going to give
31:53them and the issue with what the user
31:56are giving to fail the user doesn't
31:58realize what he's doing and that's an
32:00issue did you realize that your website
32:02a transman cat who is helping Facebook
32:04tracking users you probably didn't
32:06realize that before before today people
32:09do not realize how the internet is
32:11working this is it's extremely complex a
32:13very few happy few geeky people totally
32:17realized what's going on with Facebook
32:19and with Google and with all those huge
32:22internet companies including pound tear
32:24but ask the guy in street what pound
32:27tears he has no clue during his yeah let
32:31me ask you about this fatwa because if
32:33the answer as you just heard Peter
32:35Eckersley say is you know get people to
32:40pay for what
32:42the service they're getting yeah
32:43actually when the product is free that's
32:46if you put paywalls everywhere that's
32:48not gonna work is either so how do you
32:50do it it's the product is free if the
32:53product is free that means that you are
32:55you are the product as very known once
33:00in actual yesterday asked asked Mark
33:03Zuckerberg if it's there can be a paid
33:08version of premium version of Facebook
33:11where people can pay for not getting for
33:15example ads and Mark Zuckerberg asks
33:17that we think about it I think that
33:20other solution like Spotify or other
33:22other solution like that allow the final
33:27user to choose between pain pain and not
33:32getting ads or getting a free version of
33:37the product and finally it will not get
33:41ads I think the user finally should
33:43should have a choice mark zuckerberg
33:46who's testifying for two days in
33:48washington so far he's not accepted
33:51invitations to testify before the House
33:54of Commons and Britain it'll be he's
33:58also been he's also not said whether or
34:00not he would like to come to Brussels to
34:01testify during his testimony he had a
34:06message that was very much honed towards
34:08US lawmakers points to China's lock on
34:11its own social media networking
34:13Europeans take heed Zook makes a selling
34:17point of the fact that thanks to him and
34:19others America effectively owns the
34:21Internet
34:22one of the key issues here is Facebook
34:25too powerful are you too powerful and do
34:29you think you're too powerful so now I
34:32think most of the time when people talk
34:33about our scale they're referencing that
34:37we have two billion people in our
34:39community and I think one of the big
34:41questions that we need to think through
34:42here is the vast majority of those two
34:45billion people are outside of the US and
34:47I think that that's something that to
34:50your point that Americans should be
34:52proud of and when I brought up the
34:54Chinese Internet companies I think
34:55that's a real real strategic and
34:58competitive threat that in an American
35:01technology balls you another thing here
35:02real quick Peter Eckersley we should own
35:06the internet because otherwise the
35:07Chinese will your thoughts on that
35:09III think this is a pretty clever way
35:13for like to dodge that question about
35:15accountability for the enormous power
35:17that Facebook has built I think that
35:20Europe should ask itself can we be
35:22creative
35:23I don't think taking the Chinese model
35:25of cutting things off but you know is
35:27there a way that Europe could create a
35:29European alternative new competition for
35:31Facebook that's funded differently more
35:34creatively maybe like Spotify may be
35:36funded by European governments or the
35:39European people in some different way
35:41that shows that there's a different way
35:44to build technology I think I mean those
35:46are hot questions I don't have answers
35:47to them I think that those the questions
35:49that the people in Europe could ask
35:51themselves how do we build something
35:53creative in response to Facebook the
35:56Europeans tried it with a search engine
35:58they tried it many time and we know that
36:02we separate it always failed why does it
36:04always fail because we don't have the
36:06same kind of innovation as the US we
36:08don't have the same kind of money we
36:11don't have the same kind of incentive
36:12the same kind of killed it was saying in
36:14France we don't have whatever we have
36:15ideas oh well it's just words basically
36:19I think that's having a social network
36:21offended by the state
36:22considering lots of states in Europe are
36:25moving to the extreme right is not
36:29probably very sane it could turn out to
36:32be very very dangerous I'd rather have
36:35my personal later handled by a private
36:37company even though Facebook has deep
36:40relationship with other companies linked
36:42to the state then that my own state
36:46knowing that I live in a country well
36:48not a country in Europe and that one
36:51after the others all European state are
36:53moving to the extreme right I wouldn't
36:55feel comfortable with all those data in
36:57the hands of Markova government although
36:59they have we're under surveillance Peter
37:02Eckersley any yeah any new social
37:05network I think if you're trying to
37:06build one should use encryption so that
37:07the people running that
37:09can't spy on all of the communications
37:11that are happening that so if you're
37:14thinking creatively I think that's one
37:15of the things you should put on the list
37:16is structural protections against some
37:18of the surveillance service check on
37:20yeah my thought is that it failed for a
37:24European initiative because we try to
37:26build things and new products based on
37:28fear and I'm pretty sure that we can't
37:31build a new company based on fear and
37:33most of our users that don't really I
37:35mean they care about their privacy but
37:37not that much
37:38so thing I'm just going to do another
37:40Facebook or not a Google another
37:42platform just based on fear of privacy I
37:45mean that's not going to work if you
37:47want you to build something you just add
37:49some values for the user for example for
37:54professional context I think privacy is
37:57very very important if you're gonna
38:01judge your boss or your colleague I
38:04think it's very important that you
38:07should be sure that the data is
38:09protected and they will never be a leak
38:12of data actually as I do that's why we
38:15really believe at of privacy design we
38:21do a lot of efforts on privacy and
38:26security we work with a lot of security
38:30experts and now we are trying to we are
38:35working on the GD P R that's that will
38:40start in in May the regulation by Europe
38:42and we'll leave it there just with one
38:45more reaction on the hashtag f2 for
38:47debate I actually feel sorry for the guy
38:50there's nothing worse than having to
38:51explain Facebook to a bunch of seniors a
38:54reference to a Zuckerberg before those
38:56lawmakers in Washington fed while at our
38:59Bush I want to thank you want to thank
39:01as well Sebastian Cowen flatly said that
39:031 Peter Eckersley for joining us from
39:06Pittsburgh stay with us
39:07Media watches next
39:12[Music]
39:22and we say hello to Emma James hi Emma
39:27how's house day two going well on a very
39:31superficial level Mark Zuckerberg
39:33certainly looks more at ease today
39:35yesterday he looked very very uptight a
39:38lot of people talking about the fact he
39:40looked like a robot in fact many people
39:42likening him to earn a suit yes well he
39:46just seemed to have very little
39:47expression going on but having said that
39:49things really are going pretty well for
39:52Mark Zuckerberg because I think most
39:54people understand now that we're not
39:56going to get too many answers out of
39:57this congressional hearing and this
40:00cartoonist has focused on him attempting
40:03to fix the flow of data that is heading
40:05out of Facebook but but frankly he seems
40:09to be doing a pretty good job of fixing
40:11exactly what message he wants to get
40:12across in front of Congress and the
40:15Guardian newspaper has this article that
40:18says Facebook still has all the power
40:20and one of the things that they point
40:22towards it's really neatly illustrated
40:25you couldn't make this stuff up really
40:27two of the toughest questioners
40:29yesterday that Mark Zuckerberg had to
40:31face Richard Blumenthal and Kamala
40:33Harris took to Twitter to tell their
40:35followers to go to Facebook to be able
40:37to watch the hearing live and that
40:40really does sum up just how much it's
40:42still a huge part of all of our lives
40:44and the politicians and everyone else
40:47around the world are as tied in as many
40:50of its other users one person replying
40:52ironic I deleted my facebook account
40:55because of all of this there is a sort
40:58of it's a gray area how much the whole
41:01boycott Facebook delete Facebook hashtag
41:04movement has actually taken hold because
41:07Facebook themselves say they've not seen
41:09that bigger movement in terms of people
41:11deleting their accounts or the like in
41:13the wake of Cambridge analytical
41:15revelations did you did you delete your
41:17account and teaching that it's cool I
41:19haven't really that's the thing it is
41:26such an easy way and a very
41:28non-committal way to stay in contact
41:30with people around the world and it is
41:33free now Mark Zuckerberg undoubtedly has
41:36been very well drilled these notes
41:39everyone's fascinated by these he left
41:42them open he's got a big binder full of
41:44pages of notes basically ideas for
41:47whatever questions may come at him he
41:49left it open during a break
41:51photographers took pictures and they
41:52were put on the internet and people are
41:54fascinated this pretty user asking did
41:56he accidentally leave his prepared notes
41:59open for the press to take pictures off
42:01you know was this yet another five hours
42:03of hearings you take pictures of almost
42:06anything right
42:07well absolutely yes that is true but he
42:09did leave them unattended that's the
42:11interesting thing to note here this
42:13treaty is saying in gross privacy
42:15breached someone leaned over marks like
42:17over his shoulder and photographed his
42:18notes he didn't give them permission but
42:19maybe one of his friends did
42:23particularly nice take on it this is
42:25someone's idea of what may have been on
42:26those notes and you've got me my let's
42:28think about examiner holding handfuls of
42:30cash and everyone else there the hair's
42:32on fire and they are called suckers so
42:36it is interesting to note that it is it
42:39has been hugely stage-managed even down
42:41to the fact that he's been sitting on a
42:44cushion lots of people taking note of
42:47the fact that there's a sizeable cushion
42:49on that chair no joke says this woman
42:51Zuckerberg needed a booster seat for
42:52yesterday's Senate hearing can't keep
42:54that private
42:55and this Twitter user pointing out that
42:58as he's only five foot seven this has
43:00basically been engineered because they
43:02do not want him to look small or meet in
43:04photographs all right and of course the
43:08Zuckerberg as you say he's gonna ride
43:09out this storm in part thanks as we saw
43:12with that that reaction on the hashtag
43:15gifted for debate by the fact that the
43:17question is just aren't all that
43:20tech-savvy sometimes no absolutely there
43:22have been glaring moments where the
43:24lawmakers knowledge of how Facebook
43:27works has been wanting to say the least
43:29we've had questions like why am I seeing
43:32adverts for chocolate all the time on my
43:34Facebook page do I really have as many
43:37friends as I think I have on Facebook
43:39somebody I was talked about emailing on
43:41what's happened was would that be spied
43:44on well whatsapp is encrypted and you
43:45can't
43:46and e-mails fire it somebody else asked
43:48how do you make money now that's the
43:50most obvious question given what we're
43:52actually talking about here they make
43:54money from adverts not from charging
43:56people I think undoubtedly one of the
43:58high spots had to be the moment oh this
44:01as well
44:02many people joking about this mr.
44:04Zuckerberg a magazine I recently opened
44:06came with a floppy disk offering me 30
44:07hours as something called America online
44:09is that the same as Facebook because
44:11lots of people really just think they
44:13didn't happen no no no my is a joke and
44:17Stephen Colbert as well making jokes
44:19about this on always feel bad was like a
44:20bug there's no way he left that room
44:21full of old people without having to set
44:23up their Wi-Fi and but it is a real
44:26problem much as people are joking about
44:27it one of the other interesting points
44:30as well is that a lot of politicians
44:32have chosen to use their moment in the
44:34spotlight to kind of veer off topic
44:36including Ted Cruz who talked a lot
44:39about political bias and in particular
44:41the removal of conservative pages farm
44:45pages and the like and he talked a great
44:49deal about this and you really used up
44:51his five minutes to do that what is
44:53interesting to note is that there was a
44:55real echo chamber on Twitter if you're
44:57on Twitter at the time you would have
44:58thought Ted Cruz was doing the most
45:00amazing job of dismantling Zuckerberg
45:02the Columbia Beagle saying was
45:04absolutely glorious but it's worth
45:06pointing out the Ted Cruz was actually
45:08one of the biggest customers of
45:09Cambridge analytic a paymen five point
45:12eight million dollars before all of this
45:15news broke this was 2015 2016 for his
45:18presidential campaign so no wonder he
45:21didn't want to focus on data being
45:23leaked because of course he had such
45:25strong ties with that company all right
45:27we'll leave it there and we'll continue
45:29to follow the trail on this one it looks
45:32like it's not over yet many thanks Emma
45:34James I want to thank our panel once
45:36again thank you for joining us here in
45:38the France 24 to be
45:41[Music]

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of Out of control? Mark Zuckerberg and the power of Facebook by FRANCE 24 English, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 7,466 words across 1,084 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to translate the transcript into 100+ languages.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, translation to 100+ languages, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.