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Optimized HGH in Bodybuilding with Kurt Havens - J3U Podcast // Eps.164 — Transcript

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0:00welcome to the j3 university podcast I'm
0:02your host John jitt and I'm your co-host
0:04Luke Miller our mission is to elevate
0:06the physique coaching standard and
0:08deliver the highest level of competitors
0:10to the stage let's jump into today's
0:14[Music]
0:18episode optimizing growth hormone in
0:21bodybuilding today we have on Kurt
0:24Havens who is a physique coach also does
0:28a lot of research and also put out a lot
0:30of great information around um Androgen
0:33uh information growth hormone all all
0:36things PDS related I think that's kind
0:38of been the passion project for Kurt and
0:40so if you haven't seen a lot of this
0:42information out there happy to have him
0:44on the our podcast for the first time
0:46because that is a an area that we'd love
0:48to talk about and chat on but Kurt has
0:51his entire book that has come out on on
0:54growth hormone which was an excellent
0:55read and recommend everyone to pick this
0:57up if you have anything to do with
0:59growth hormone
1:00because it's delivers science and
1:03doesn't dilute it and as an
1:05understandable takeaway which is a hard
1:07thing to convey so Kurt um great to have
1:10you on how you doing excellent thanks
1:12for having me guys yeah I mean that's
1:15kind of been my passion I realized
1:16through both what was going on in social
1:18media what was going on in modern
1:21medicine is just a serious lack of good
1:23information on PS right and just stigmas
1:26behind a lot of these things
1:28and and just a lot of bror that just
1:31been carried on and carried on and it's
1:32not necessarily the best way to go about
1:34doing these things right because the
1:35goal is we want to be able to do this
1:37safely and do it long term and maintain
1:39our
1:40health yeah I think with growth hormon
1:43has always been so misunderstood and you
1:46know when I was coming up in
1:47bodybuilding it was like growth for was
1:49going to be the game changer like don't
1:51use this earlier on this is your Ace
1:53card to play like you turn pro use
1:55growth hormone it like opens up the
1:57gates right I think insulin he probably
1:59more misunderstood which is a whole
2:01another podcast of itself um but you
2:04know G absolutely is misunderstood so I
2:08I would love and a lot of our listeners
2:10they have heard us speak to growth
2:12hormone but um just uh I want to get
2:14into like the depths of the conversation
2:16around some some misapplications and
2:19understanding of problems that are
2:20coming up because that's where I think
2:21you could you really shine I know we
2:23could go a whole podcast probably on
2:24just mechanistic action and and Pathways
2:27of this but if you could just give like
2:29a fundamental breakdown of the role of
2:32growth hormone in the body with regard
2:34to bodybuilding right like muscle growth
2:36fat loss like what is this stuff
2:38actually doing and maybe what it's not
2:40doing what people are are say it might
2:42be doing totally so it's secreted
2:45Naturally by your anary pituitary gland
2:47uh usually in times of stress hunger
2:50right it's it's considered a stress
2:51hormone it's actually a cyto kind so we
2:54can get into that later because that
2:55plays into how you inject it and why we
2:58inject it certain ways versus other ways
3:00um and there are five uh unique genes in
3:04the human body for growth hormone and
3:06they're all on chromosomes 17 we are
3:08only really concerned with the the the
3:11first two that we see in adults the
3:13other three are placental growth hormone
3:15that you see in pregnancy and so that's
3:18a totally different thing and that plays
3:20into some of the long acting growth
3:21hormones that have come on the market um
3:24I touched on that in some other podcasts
3:26I don't that's probably a whole another
3:28Topic in and of itself as why that's not
3:30necessarily the most ideal drug either
3:32um it's so growth hormone is responsible
3:35for tons of stuff like uh total human
3:39body development right when you're
3:40growing uh and for bodybuilders
3:44specifically we're looking at a from a
3:46muscle building fat loss uh
3:49collagen um all tissue basically uh bone
3:54liver cells immune system
3:57sleep I I always joke
4:00that if growth hormone only improved my
4:02sleep as much as it did I would still
4:04use it even if it had no other effects
4:06because to me the Sleep benefits are are
4:08so profound especially when you get like
4:11I'm 50 so at at this point in my life
4:14sleep is not a great thing anymore you
4:16know I don't know if you guys get that
4:18yet but when you when when you get up
4:20there it it it becomes really
4:22compromising it becomes difficult to get
4:23through training and recovery and manage
4:26all these things you know and keep
4:27making progress um into later years
4:30because that's the the goal here right
4:31like I want to be able to do this until
4:32I'm in my 70s at least in some capacity
4:36um and that's you know and I think
4:39that's where using these things wisely
4:40and using things like growth
4:42hormone I think can really Aid in that
4:45right like the two see in my opinion the
4:47two
4:49healthiest things people could use would
4:51probably be testosterone growth hormone
4:52they're endogenous hormones and the body
4:54knows exactly what to do with them um
4:56they would produce in theory the less
4:58the least amount of C effects even
5:00though there's things like prabal that
5:01are very refined they're not natural
5:03hormones so we don't really know long
5:05term what those drugs actually do
5:07especially in the doses that
5:08bodybuilders
5:09take
5:11um would you say k like going through
5:13this because we talk about muscle
5:15building talk about body composition and
5:18with growth
5:19hormone there's you know everyone thinks
5:22about the growth aspect with its naming
5:25would you say there's a stronger role
5:27for growth hormone a more like limiting
5:29body body fat or reducing body fat over
5:32its muscle building capacity um or or is
5:36it vice versa you know so that's and and
5:38I state that in my book in the beginning
5:40it's kind of like a shocker is that
5:42growth hormone itself is not really
5:43building muscle directly right there it
5:45shows that it seems to prevent some
5:48level of protein breakdown through mtor
5:51activation at a muscle cell but it
5:53doesn't really increase muscle protein
5:54synthesis
5:55rates um and it's most of the effects we
5:58see are through igf one so igf1 is
6:02really kind of the drive and force
6:03between why most guys are using GH and
6:07not so much for the GH GH itself is more
6:09of like a fat loss agent right and the
6:12other things like the Sleep
6:15um and those sorts of effects uh soft
6:18soft tissue collagen those kind of
6:20things are more from growth hormone
6:21although igf plays a role there too um
6:25but yeah so it's it's it's growth
6:26hormone itself is not necessarily
6:27building muscle directly that's not why
6:29you're using it yeah I so I guess that
6:32kind of gets into like next question I
6:34had
6:35which some people the the access to
6:38growth hormone or it's you know still
6:40stated the cost limitations of accessing
6:43growth hormone might be what would cause
6:45someone to go down a different path
6:46right like I started because when I was
6:49going to use uh peptides right these
6:52growth hormones secreted gogs because
6:53they're very accessible this was back in
6:55like 2015 like nearly 10 10 years ago um
6:59Qui realizing like how I had to use
7:01these things and the amount that I need
7:02to use it's like damn I might as well
7:04just buy growth from them by this point
7:05but um you brought up a couple points
7:08when you're talking around
7:10differentiating effects between GH and
7:12igf-1 and it sounds like we definitely
7:15want both to be occurring for the fat
7:16loss aspects but also these muscle
7:18building effects collagen building
7:20effects and so you still see a lot of
7:24people asking about
7:26mk677 or ipam morelan and these other
7:31coges what what might you be limiting
7:35factors in some of these and uh be you
7:39be held back by trying to go this route
7:41like what are what are your opinions and
7:43thoughts around those so mk677 is really
7:46interesting so that as last I saw it's
7:49in stage three of clinical trials to
7:51become a pharmaceutical drug and the
7:54name is changing it won't be called M
7:56mk677 that name signifies a a joint
8:00venture between MC and another peptide
8:02company they joined to form a lot of
8:05these peptides years ago and that's how
8:07they were all named with those numbers
8:08and those letters uh those were like uh
8:11research same a lot of steroids actually
8:13have research numbers on them before
8:15they become like a chemical name um I
8:18think mk677 might be the most valuable
8:21of them but not necessarily for our
8:24population they're looking at children
8:26with delay growth or growth hormone
8:28deficiency and elderly so my father's in
8:32his 70s and he's had great luck with
8:34MK the the issue with MK and all of
8:38those
8:38secretagogues well especially the
8:40injectable ones is with the with the
8:42injectable ones like EP morelan you have
8:44to time your food and all these things
8:46around it right in order for it to even
8:47work um the the biggest limiting factor
8:52is it's basically like a test it's going
8:53to work similar to a testosterone
8:54booster its limiting factor is your
8:56pituitary gland so if your pituitary
8:58gland is not functioning
9:01ideally or or if you never had a huge
9:06amount like if your body wasn't
9:07producing a ton of growth hormone to
9:08begin with it's only going to take you
9:10to where you were naturally right so
9:12that's kind of the rate limit versus
9:13when you inject a hormone you're
9:15bypassing that thing right differ
9:17injecting testosterone versus taking you
9:20know a pro hormone or um one of those
9:24over-the-counter test boosters right
9:25like even if they increase your test by
9:2740% is that enough for us to see result
9:29in the gym probably not unless you're at
9:31the rock bottom of the of the range so
9:33that that's I think for bodybuilders
9:37most likely I would say the the secret
9:39aogs are pretty useless they don't
9:41really seem to do a ton I mean I guess
9:42it's better than nothing but in the
9:44current environment it seems that you
9:45can get underground lab GH pretty
9:49reasonable now it's changed a lot in the
9:51last 10 years right it's HCG is probably
9:53actually more expensive now than GH yeah
9:56probably so the ways the laws have
9:58changed with the pharmaceutical compan
9:59is making this stuff um that's I mean
10:03that's that's pretty much the yeah you
10:07know Luke wrote a bit more on this like
10:10in our j3u course but look looking
10:12around the research of the secog like
10:15you know it could get a guy maybe into
10:17maybe into the 300s like maybe High Norm
10:20but to get someone super physiological
10:22to where you really gain the benefits it
10:24just seems like that's not the role and
10:26then to to your point as well Kurt it's
10:28like what's your ability to produce
10:30growth hormone and if you're a young guy
10:32in your 20s you might already have a
10:34really good production so you're like
10:36just try taking this to probably maybe
10:38even produce the same amount it's like
10:40using trt when you're 20 years old like
10:42why would you do that unless you're
10:44truly hypogonadal yeah which is rare
10:46right right you can cause that by poor
10:48diet lifestyle overtraining those kind
10:50of things but like which you see a lot
10:52of this trt at these young Ages which is
10:54wild right I mean I didn't start trt
10:56till I was 40 but I was truly
10:58hypogonadal and my body just wouldn't
11:00respond anymore you know and I and I did
11:03beat the [ __ ] on myself so I you know I
11:05probably had lower test levels at a
11:07younger age but did it really affect my
11:08training I'd say probably not um and
11:12that's kind of where you know using
11:15exogenous growth hormone would make a
11:16much bigger difference than using these
11:18other things and the reason why I said
11:20before underground lab GH and not
11:23generic is just I think we have to be
11:26careful with the term because the term
11:28generic in a pharmacetical sense
11:30basically means it's manufactured to the
11:32same specifications as the
11:34pharmaceutical and unfortunately they're
11:36not made to the same specs they're
11:38similar right the drug itself is the
11:40same but what goes into it the process
11:41to manufacture that and bottle it and
11:43stuff is is vastly different and that's
11:46what we tend to see the difference
11:48between PHA G and the the underground
11:52lab stuff I don't know if you want me to
11:53go into what the difference is and
11:55there's nothing wrong with underground
11:56lab stuff especially affordability wise
12:00accessibility um abundance right most
12:03most people especially in this country
12:04don't have access to pharmaceutical
12:06growth hormone and even if they did the
12:08cost is not something they can really
12:10take on right because you're looking at
12:12basically a Mercedes S-Class a month to
12:14run any good amount of Pharma GH I I do
12:17want to hit that and this is one of my
12:18next questions but there there's a last
12:20point about like access and uh we talked
12:24about like a srog but also what's
12:27accessible I see this promoted a lot
12:28because
12:30people can sell them you can have a
12:31discount code and you can push it is
12:33igf1 Dez igf1 lr3 like these are all
12:36really popular as as well which there's
12:40limiting aspects around this and so I
12:43also wanted you to be able to to touch
12:45on those as well I I in in my experience
12:50and in my knowledge the those variants
12:53of igf are not going to be as effective
12:55in in rodent studies they seem to do
12:57much more than in humans in in the
12:59Practical realities I don't know anyone
13:01that's used any of those igf variants
13:03and really got much out of it I would
13:05say again if you're going to go the the
13:07pure igf route it seems that Inc relux
13:09is kind of the way to go but again the
13:11cost right abundance especially in the
13:13United States is it's really hard to
13:14come by and it's probably more for a
13:17very Advanced user I would say in my
13:20mind working with athletes at different
13:22levels I'd say incorporating something
13:24like ankux comes way at the later stages
13:27like where you are John when you're
13:29looking at the difference in 1% is the
13:32difference in you winning the Olympia
13:33versus you know not winning the Olympia
13:36versus at a local show I I highly doubt
13:39that that's going to be the game changer
13:40there for most of those guys yeah I'm
13:43just pounding down incr over here of
13:46course that's where you typically would
13:48see it but it's more in the European
13:49guys I think over there yeah I've seen
13:51like some Middle Eastern countries like
13:53have access around these things but e
13:55even the guys that I personally have
13:57never used incr but the guys that I have
14:00spoken to it's kind of the same thing it
14:01just doesn't have a real profound effect
14:05uh I do think and I think going back to
14:07our original thing where if you're just
14:09trying to take igf-1 we talk about oh
14:11this is what we're really after for
14:13bodybuilding and I I think that is not
14:15the only thing we are really after
14:17because I think the real benefit is
14:19growth hormone itself both right um to
14:23be able because my my experience is in
14:26the offseason this is the leanest I've
14:28ever been able to stay so the indirect
14:31effect to be able to partition more
14:34towards muscle is how I get the muscle
14:37building effects yes igf-1 has a role
14:40right but it's really I think the growth
14:42R owns indirect effects of partitioning
14:44ability that creates such a profound
14:46response and you're missing out on that
14:48I think with just taking like something
14:50like incx and youve probably seen the
14:52studies on incx because incx is actually
14:55utilized for um like children deficient
14:59in growth hormone that are
15:00non-responsive like they have some type
15:02of defect or um error to where they
15:05don't have igf-1 occurring and so they
15:07use incx um and and the dosage of those
15:10studies like man to have replacement
15:13amount of
15:14igf-1 you wouldn't be able to afford it
15:16and I see the protocols of what guys
15:18take it's like it's it's like a tinth of
15:21what's even effective so yeah it's
15:24hugely expensive and we try and in HIV
15:26the same thing we've we've studied IG
15:29incr luux versus using serostim and the
15:32outcome is just not as great like you're
15:34just getting so much more out of the GH
15:37you know in in those people and that's
15:38that's on an extreme end but if you look
15:40at that if it can grow new cells and
15:43stop wasting in someone that's
15:45terminally ill like that you have to
15:47figure for someone like us who's clearly
15:49not you know you're not sitting in a bed
15:51you're not wasting away you're not
15:52expressing all these cabon genes it's
15:54it's going to have a I just think an
15:57overall better effect than just using
15:58something like KF I think I think one of
16:01the things on the anecdotal side of like
16:03growth hormone usage is like John you
16:05mentioned like stringing like Seasons
16:07together like being able to manage body
16:09composition kind of being like the
16:10primary input of where we see the
16:13applicable usage being extremely high
16:16I've actually been using it pretty well
16:18though in keeping people training from
16:19an injury profile perspective on the
16:21collagen synthesis side of the equation
16:23um actually pretty robustly getting
16:26people back to training post injury with
16:28combination of like tv500 bpc alongside
16:31growth hormone usage kind of going down
16:33that collagen synthesis route so I kind
16:35of wanted to let you touch on that real
16:37quick before we got into the access
16:38stuff because
16:40like the secondary effects of growth
16:42hormone are where like it's so robust as
16:45a coach being able to manage someone and
16:47we talked about this in the previous
16:48podcast like John's body composition
16:51comments about I can take someone
16:53through an allseason phase longer I can
16:55keep them exposed to physiological
16:57androgens longer because I'm managing
16:59body composition better and as a result
17:00Health metrics I'm stringing along
17:03Seasons better because I can keep them
17:05in a better body comp but I can keep
17:07them training more effectively too
17:09because I'm getting them out of injury
17:10profiles or n niggles a bit quicker
17:13because of the collagen synthesis side
17:14of the equation so I just want to let
17:16you touch on that because I think that's
17:18a I don't say underutilized but maybe
17:20under discussed or under uh realize
17:24potential benefit of keeping that in
17:25play as well yeah and having seen in
17:29person in the middle of an offseason
17:31like I saw you last year at the Arnold
17:32your condition all year round is
17:34phenomenal I don't think the pictures do
17:36it that Justice that you post on
17:38Instagram I mean you you look like
17:40you're ready to get on stage all the
17:42time which is Quite a feat for someone
17:43your size and this your amount of food
17:46and you know that you have to eat just
17:48to just to make progress at your you
17:50know I wasn't like that before I've
17:51gotten fat so people you're just leaning
17:53I'm like no man I'm not like doing stuff
17:57correctly it's amazing that's I think
17:58how you were able to move up weight
17:59classes so quickly and so smoothly you
18:02know year after
18:03year yeah and you know I think Luke has
18:06a good thing to bring up around this
18:08we're talking about peptides right um
18:10and like everyone jumping on like bpc or
18:13tb500 to like oh I have this injury let
18:15me throw this in and I personally I've
18:18just seen so much more response at a
18:20growth hormone than bpc or
18:23tb500 it just seems like it's all over
18:25the place like some people notice it
18:27some people don't I think there's lot of
18:29placebo maybe happening there but yeah I
18:32I've never personally seen a ton of I I
18:34think that there is some Merit to using
18:36bpc and tb500 tb500 is very like acute
18:38like you literally just injured yourself
18:40that's a great time for tb500 bpc is
18:43probably more like a long like a nagging
18:45thing that's been around for a while it
18:46might Aid in that recovery to some
18:49degree right how much is hard to say and
18:51I think like you said it probably
18:52depends on the person and the injury
18:54right if it's something's fully torn
18:56it's not going to fix it yeah GH I think
19:00GH I think has a much more profound
19:02effect on recovery and healing it just
19:04needs to be used long term right it
19:07doesn't collagen synthesis doesn't
19:08really start to ramp up it's kind of a
19:09biphasic response doesn't really start
19:11to ramp up for about six months after
19:13use and then again at another big ramp
19:15up at a year so if you're if someone's
19:17using growth hormone for a prep or
19:19something they're only going to use it
19:20for two or three months they're probably
19:21not even getting anywhere near the full
19:22benefits of it it's just starting to
19:24build yeah at that point um but I think
19:27you could definitely use all all three
19:29together if you if you actually have an
19:31injury or coming out of surgery or
19:32something yeah you kind of weigh like
19:34what is the the risk of of not using
19:37versus using them right and like you
19:39know these aren't FDA approved drugs but
19:42we have quite a bit of research
19:44nonetheless probably more than in the
19:46past of what is even an FDA approved
19:48drug so uh people should keep that in
19:50mind when they're like we all use human
19:52approved drugs it's like yeah but even
19:54the current ones are probably even
19:55stricter to come to Market and for
19:58specific Reon reasons that sometimes
19:59they don't pan out but
20:01anyway yeah I think uh those those
20:04probably are be like lower from growth
20:07hormone probably like our our next like
20:09tier of of peptides that probably have
20:12some good good efficacy but the rest the
20:14stuff is who knows hit or miss right i'
20:17I've never really seen many people have
20:19much luck with a lot of the other stuff
20:21that's out there probably wasted money
20:22and if you're going to spend thousands
20:24of dollars on these random peptides I
20:25would probably just invest in growth
20:26hormone at that point yeah um now there
20:29there was a study I don't know if you
20:30recall I have to send it to you it was
20:32in in young individuals U do dosing I
20:35believe and they actually showed like
20:38within a 14-day period a ramp up of
20:41collagen synthesis with using growth
20:43hormone now this is just means like hey
20:45some mRNA increases of collagen
20:47synthesis but to pan out to an actual
20:51effect that you're noticing is going to
20:53be some time right like you're saying
20:55it's not going to be the next week it's
20:57like I'm Healed right it's uh takes some
21:00time to actually that's the issue with
21:02mtor and protein synthesis and nitrogen
21:05retention all these things these were
21:07metrics we used years ago to determine
21:09if a drug was efficient or not and it
21:10turns out that just retaining nitrogen
21:14while it might prevent some catabolism
21:16or stimulating mour like Lucine right
21:18stimulates mour that doesn't mean you're
21:19growing muscle from being Lucine right
21:21there's none so just stimulate and when
21:23they studied it's really difficult to
21:25figure out if that's protein synthesis
21:26in a muscle or if that's whole body
21:28protein synthesis right that's a big
21:30determining Factor too so it's it's not
21:32that you don't want to keep your protein
21:34synthesis elevated to some degree if
21:36you're trying to grow but in and of
21:38itself it's not going to be the stimulus
21:39for growth right there's only four
21:41Pathways that we know of that cause
21:42growth of muscle and humans and
21:45unfortunately mtor is not directly one
21:48of them right it's it's mechano
21:50transduction from exercise it's the
21:53andren receptor the igf-1 receptor and
21:55p13k which is an energy sensor that
21:58insulin and igf and all those things can
22:00interact with as well as food but it's
22:02it's Downstream from mtor but mtor
22:04itself is not going to cause right you
22:06could drink all the protein you want
22:07you're not going to grow it's with all
22:09these studies like we learn about how
22:10something works in a path it's not the
22:13thing that we want to just put all of
22:15our programming into right so it's like
22:17yeah like your your pi3k pathway right
22:20it it does influence inour great what
22:23does that actually mean for us to
22:25implement in our our routines but um
22:29to to to bring this back of something
22:30that you were about to get into that I I
22:33just kept us in a rabbit hole of
22:35peptides was um around growth hormone
22:40access and the question we get a lot is
22:43how do I know my GH is
22:46real which a is a is a simple answer yet
22:49a challenging answer because there's a
22:50lot of nuance there I would say
22:54from you could do a GH pulse right you
22:57could do you could do lab to see you
22:59could possibly test igf again igf we can
23:01touch on igf and serum if you want later
23:04and I can kind of explain kind of the
23:06misunderstanding there with that test um
23:09I would say I mean really simple growth
23:11hormone's fairly dramatic when it's good
23:14you you would know that your growth
23:16hormone is good I think the first sign
23:17is when the dose is adequate that your
23:19sleep should start to become much deeper
23:22and you start to have really vivid
23:23dreams and you see that even on things
23:25like mk677 they start to have really
23:27strange dreams
23:29um I think from a body composition point
23:31of view when you use an adequate amount
23:33of growth hormone for your body and
23:34everyone just responds to different
23:36amounts right there are guys that can
23:38use you know four or five units and get
23:40fantastic results or other guys that
23:41might use a bottle a day um I I would
23:45say it it's it's fairly apparent though
23:47when it's working when you're using the
23:50right amount I'm sure you noticed right
23:51when you when you started using it it
23:53became obvious really quickly enough of
23:56it and but I also Al I guess the
23:59challenge around that is you have to be
24:02fairly uh you know introspective in
24:06aware and someone earlier on might not
24:09have that kind of awareness right so
24:10like when I raised up my dosage this is
24:12when I'm I'm seeing things happen that
24:15wouldn't make sense before right like
24:17body weight's increasing I'm not seeing
24:19F and you're like wow okay I'm seeing
24:22this visually happen you feel Fuller
24:24right you got a fuller look veins right
24:27increases nitric oxide you bigger
24:28thicker veins on it I guess the
24:31thing that I would be careful with is
24:34that a lot of people see if drugs are
24:36working based on their also their we
24:40maybe we say effect other effects
24:42because they're not just side effects or
24:43negative effects they're just all
24:44effects right that oh man my hands are
24:46swollen or that my hands are tingling um
24:49or man my fasted blood glucose is Sky
24:52High it's like those aren't ways that we
24:54want to chase down to make sure your
24:56growth room is real like you don't
24:57really want the other effects to be
24:59happening same with like Trend ballone
25:01right oh man my sleep's terrible like I
25:03got some I got some good Trend now like
25:05no or you're just taking too much much
25:07or you don't tolerate it right I think
25:08that's that's another thing that people
25:10have to understand is like not everyone
25:12can take aspirin not everyone can take
25:13Tren not everyone can take growth
25:15hormone you might not tolerate it it's
25:18you know just because you get a negative
25:19effect doesn't mean that it's working
25:21right so if a guy and I'm not Haring on
25:24micro doing stuff but if a guy's taking
25:2510 milligrams of trend and he's Fe
25:28feeling it does that mean it's an
25:30effective dose because you get a side
25:31effect no if you took right amoxicilin
25:34is dosed at 500 milligram if you took
25:35half of an amoxicillin and you broke out
25:37in hives does that mean your your the
25:39bacteria in your body's going away no it
25:41means you have side effect you're
25:42allergic to the drug so you you
25:43shouldn't be using that drug that's kind
25:45of the same steroids we shouldn't be
25:47chasing sides to figure out what
25:49efficiency is yeah and that doesn't also
25:51mean you're going to have a great growth
25:53response to it right you could just have
25:55a poor resilience to side effects you
25:57get all I have clients where they get
25:59like take steroids they take all the
26:00negative effects and they do not respond
26:03like from a muscle building standpoint
26:04and but if you looked at if you went off
26:06side effects you're like man this guy's
26:07gonna have a great response like nope
26:09nope that's not always the case at all
26:11so no well because with with especially
26:13with the steroids you have multiple
26:15places for this Android receptors so
26:17non-genomic stuff on the cell surface is
26:19going to cause most of the side effects
26:21and those are located on organs in your
26:23brain that's when guys take Trend and
26:25they feel awful on it it doesn't mean
26:27that it's actually causing any sort of
26:28Gene transcription right you could be
26:31you could have a polymorphism or be
26:32totally lacking in a classic AR and and
26:36knock at any respon from Trend but you
26:37could really feel it right so me
26:39testosterone it can make you a nervous
26:40wreck it doesn't mean it's doing
26:41anything most likely the guys that seem
26:45to respond the best can will grow on the
26:47smallest amounts but they can also
26:49tolerate bigger amounts yes right and I
26:51think that's why amongst prob
26:52bodybuilders you see variations in
26:54amounts of drugs taken right and it
26:57because some someone like yourself could
26:59probably grow on 400 milligrams but you
27:00could also take 4,000 milligrams and be
27:02okay versus guys that have poor
27:04responses have it across the board right
27:06they have it at their first injection
27:07and no matter what you do with their
27:08dose it doesn't ever get any better and
27:10the response doesn't change you know
27:12same with GH like if your hands go numb
27:15at two
27:16units most likely something is off right
27:20we got to look at a couple things
27:20hydration sodium intake um maybe
27:24bringing it back down and then trying
27:25again or maybe it's just not the right
27:27drug for you yeah you could just have
27:28more robust that like uh sodium
27:31potassium atpa like influence that
27:35growth hormone has or even on
27:37aldosterone you retain more water that
27:40could be problematic um but to to go
27:43back around this testing piece because I
27:45remember like you used I used to read on
27:47the forums that was out of like well how
27:49do you test your growth fromone right
27:50like it was out that you you do 10 IU
27:53intramuscular injection and then you
27:55know the growth hormone Peaks around 3
27:56hours after this Administration you go
27:58pull your labs and you see what your
28:01serum GH level was and if you had a
28:04baseline to compar off of maybe you
28:05would just know like all right this is
28:07the response but you can't really say
28:09the amount of growth hormone that was
28:11being present but then also you later
28:14find out well these companies are like
28:16adding in peptides to their growth
28:17hormone to where maybe you're seeing a
28:19response and that's not just from rhgh
28:22maybe it's like also added with some
28:24ghrp6 or something in there or Dez you
28:27could put like cheaper igf or something
28:29in there right sure make than than
28:31growth hormone itself yeah that's and
28:34serum do you want me to touch on serum I
28:35I do I do I I think um before I guess
28:39the only real way that I would say would
28:42be an hlc test sending off your vial of
28:45growth hormone to be able to say like
28:47this is the Purity the potency uh the
28:50dimer you know all these aspects that
28:52would be there and geez if you get
28:56plugged into the right areas you can
28:57find a lot of these testings that have
28:59been already done
29:02Forest companies that have been out for
29:04a while it just be around the right
29:07people for long enough and you start
29:08will finding these these things out but
29:11um but but yes the testing piece so some
29:13people are also just looking at crmi gf1
29:17and so dive into this because if you're
29:19taking zous hor growth hormone it's
29:21going to raise up your CI gf1 what does
29:23that mean for us with response or even
29:27uh growth horm
29:28quality yeah well I'll back up one
29:31second with the testing before we close
29:33that out the um I think where the
29:36difficulty in understanding the
29:37difference between a Pharma and a and an
29:39underground lab gh2 is ideally you want
29:42it to be as as pure as possible right
29:44you're really looking for 98% pure
29:46better um and you ideally want as low of
29:49the dimer as possible in in this case
29:51that word can mean a ton of things
29:52depending on what science you're talking
29:54about in this case we're talking about
29:55like broken protein protein strands in
29:57there that are just not GH anymore
29:59they've there's something else who knows
30:01what they are um where the trouble
30:06starts even if you had an underground
30:07lab GH that's 98% pure 99% pure and it's
30:11just at the correct milligram amount
30:14what happens is they add some binders
30:16and fillers to it that can affect the
30:18absorption and the rate limit for growth
30:20hormone like you said about testing your
30:22blood is how much you can absorb right
30:25so when you put things like Baloo and
30:27188 which is a polymer into it it slows
30:29down the absorption so you're not
30:31getting the whole amount it'll stay a
30:33lot of times you can see it in cheaper
30:34GH when you inject it it'll leave a lump
30:37that'll last for a while um it's just
30:39not absorbing properly versus forag G
30:41when you put it in it'll leave a lump
30:42immediately and then it absorbs a couple
30:43minutes uh the other thing is manitol is
30:46typically added uh which is a diuretic
30:49it's a nonp potassium sparing diuretic
30:50and it's used to it the freeze drying
30:52process so when genotropin is made or
30:55serostim is made it's freeze red in very
30:58expensive equipment um and in the
31:00underground labs they don't have access
31:02to that equipment so what they do is
31:03they add manitol to it to speed up the
31:05drying process so they can make it into
31:07a little puck and put it in a bottle and
31:08get it out the door and that manitol
31:11screws with the Sodium pottassium ratio
31:13and can cause side effects to get worse
31:15so sometimes you might see guys will use
31:18three or four units of of an underground
31:20GH and they'll get incredibly numb hands
31:22that you wouldn't see on a Pharma one
31:23until you got to like eight or 10 right
31:25and it's not going to necess improve
31:27over time because the manats in there um
31:30because normally what I'd recommend when
31:31guys get numb hands with using PHA G is
31:35start reducing some of the sodium in
31:36your diet or just be very mindful of
31:38what you're of what you're taking in and
31:40increase your water intake if you're not
31:41already someone like yourself who's
31:43already very mindful of how many
31:44electrolytes you're taking in and how
31:46much fluid you're that's a time to start
31:48paying attention to it um and some of it
31:50will go away with time as your body gets
31:51used to filtering at a different rate um
31:55okay so with the igf serum stuff so so
31:59the test was not designed for athletes
32:03so it was never meant for us it was
32:06meant for disease States so when a
32:08doctor originally was looking at this
32:10which would primarily be an
32:11endocrinologist they were looking for
32:12acromegaly or giantism or growth Mor
32:15deficiency or a pituitary adona which is
32:18a non-cancerous tumor that's pressing on
32:21the pituitary that's causing either you
32:24know like a hypers
32:25secretion um that's really what they're
32:28looking for because there is no direct
32:30correlation between your serum igf and
32:32what you're going to look like right we
32:34we see this all the time in athletes
32:36Chase irons is a great example of this
32:37because when he was doing his 18 UNS of
32:40serm a day his serum igf was in the low
32:43hundreds he was growing like a weed
32:45because his but most of that that igf
32:47was going inside of his muscles so it
32:48wasn't detectable in serum and what
32:51really is going to determine that is
32:53your binding protein so in response to
32:56GH your liver Secret treats in humans
32:59seven binding proteins number seven is
33:01debatable if it exists or not or if
33:03that's actually what it is but so this
33:04there's that's that we know of six for
33:06sure your your liver will respond by
33:09producing these binding proteins and
33:10each binding protein has a different
33:12function they'll limit where it can go
33:13or what organ it goes to so your body
33:15can regulate how it's going to grow so
33:17there's just not this like free-for-all
33:19of growth um and certain things will
33:25increase or decrease them and one of the
33:27common ones you is in bodybuilding is as
33:29Sky's estrogen Rises their igf and serum
33:31Rises and they're like well this is why
33:33we run our estrogen high in the
33:34offseason because look at my igf it's at
33:36an
33:36800 and meanwhile that doesn't mean it's
33:38actually entering the cell it's
33:40completely bound so that is a that
33:43Nature's Way of preventing igf in
33:47pregnant women from going to the fetus
33:50so you see during pregnancy as a woman
33:53is as her estrogen goes higher and
33:55higher as she gets as the pregnancy goes
33:57on in
33:58stages the um it will bind up more of
34:02her natural igf and also her pituitary
34:04will produce less so the placenta can
34:07start producing more because you don't
34:08want that igf to cross over to the fetus
34:11uh but you see that in bodybuilders as
34:12well so they run huge amount of
34:14aromatizing drugs and they're letting
34:16their estren run wild you'll see their
34:17igf go up in serum which is rendering
34:19most of it useless so just seeing an
34:22inere might show that you have injected
34:24growth hormone but it's not showing that
34:26you're going to get any muscle growth
34:27out of it directly so I don't I don't
34:29really love to test it's like most of
34:31the serum tests don't really show us
34:32anything DHT in serum isn't really
34:35teaching us anything technically estradi
34:37and Serum is not is only telling us
34:38what's in the blood it's not telling us
34:40what the cell is doing with the estrogen
34:42how fast it's converting um so some of
34:45these tests are just
34:46misunderstood and they're you know and
34:48and the trt clinics are now using them
34:50as metrics to determine an outcome but
34:52yet it's not even it wasn't designed for
34:54that I I guess you have to kind of
34:58corroborate the story of if you have a
35:00sear marker it's not the sole thing to
35:02go off of but also what is the
35:04presentation response that you're
35:06noticing then what other markers might
35:08be helping you to assess that because
35:10like you said these intracellular
35:12conversion or expression of hormones is
35:16probably what's really deeming response
35:19um you know however there could be some
35:22Association right we see this with I was
35:24looking at some studies around uh bone
35:28growth and using growth hormone and also
35:32around estrad and suppressing estrad
35:35lowering serum igf-1 aqual lowered
35:39localized igf-1 in bone and didn't cause
35:42as much growth now is that a one to one
35:44ratio what is it we we don't know um
35:47could there be some like hey if your
35:48serum igf1 higher could you also get
35:50more local igf1 possibly could it be
35:54completely unrelated for someone like
35:55say Chase sure um it it it might give
35:59you some some marker of like okay you
36:02took this and it has a
36:03rise what does this mean it might not
36:06mean much um so again I don't think it I
36:10have people ask me all the time of like
36:12hey I'm taking this much growth for I'm
36:13look at my Ser my gf1 like is that good
36:15is that bad it's like gosh it's like not
36:19I wouldn't weigh much into it and like
36:20we just spoke to earlier is that I I
36:23really think still the big benefit here
36:25is is growth hormone um and that that
36:28response in igf1 to a lesser degree
36:32because with Chase right um you could
36:35make the case like is Chase getting more
36:36localized igf1 or is it just that he has
36:39a very great robust growth hormone
36:41response yeah probably both it it maybe
36:44it's both right it's hard to pinpoint it
36:46down so you're kind of looking at like
36:47okay what is just your response and and
36:50that's why you should be monitoring and
36:51tracking pretty pretty effectively so to
36:54just like give like like specific
36:57recommendation around like you mentioned
36:58right run your estal as high as you can
37:01to have more a gdf1 it's like that's
37:04kind of misguided U there's a lot more
37:07to that and we probably do a whole
37:09podcast is pulling that whole
37:11conversation apart um but yeah I think
37:15with [ __ ] igf1 testing is not gonna be
37:17your best guide to your response
37:21right thanks everyone for tuning in to
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38:01get back to today's
38:04podcast shows us something but what it's
38:06showing us it's it's a part of a puzzle
38:09right I mean like I said initially I
38:10think using the mirror is going to be
38:12your best guide right you know my igf so
38:16I have I have a kidney issue um I'm not
38:20going to go too much into it but when I
38:21so I have a prescription for growth
38:23hormone for that kidney issue so it's
38:25not necessarily on label but it can be
38:28used for chronic kidney disease uh when
38:30initially um I started using it my egfr
38:34was only a 40 which is pretty awful um
38:38and the my igf serum was really high was
38:41like almost an 800 and part of that is
38:43with one kidney you don't filter G I'm
38:45not breaking it down and excreting it as
38:47fast so it's basically recirculating
38:49again and then the body's trying to
38:50protect me from it by binding it more
38:52and and leaving it there but I wasn't
38:54large I was 140 pounds at the time so it
38:57clearly having an 800 igf wasn't causing
39:00any sort of growth expression
39:02there GH has actually almost completely
39:06fixed my kidney my egfr non adjusted
39:08with catin c is now
39:10108 interesting my one kidney functions
39:13better than most people's to kidneys
39:15especially at my age and that's not
39:16taking the 220 pounds that I weigh now
39:19into account
39:20either yeah I can't even it's probably
39:23too many variables for me to State along
39:25that lines but I usually would always
39:27have cring and we know that's not a
39:28great marker but nonetheless it's been
39:30normal for the past like year and a half
39:33and it could it be completely unrelated
39:35possibly I have really good argulus or
39:37something but very well maybe there's
39:40something is around that new nephrons
39:42that increases filtration rate I mean
39:44that's one of the benefits of using
39:46growth hormone uh an interesting thing I
39:48want to add on Kurt and is that during
39:51like my last two weeks for the Olympia
39:53prep I pulled my labs and this was like
39:57and I also pulled them like six weeks
39:58after the show the same estradi level
40:01same growth hormone amount but my serum
40:04igf-1 was vastly different like I was in
40:07the 300s versus being in the 600s and it
40:11it just goes to show that you have
40:12multiple influencers that going to
40:14probably affect this serum level like my
40:16cortisol was up pretty high like that
40:18could be an impactor or could have been
40:21like I'm in a more dieted State
40:24potentially there's less like binding
40:25proteins and you're seeing Less in the
40:27serum put maybe again like it's like
40:30does that reflect my my had a poor batch
40:32of growth hormone like no that that's
40:34not what that means either so no it's
40:37you know and one of the main factors in
40:39igf production is glucose right glucose
40:41and protein are going to be the two
40:42biggest stimulators of igf production so
40:44if you're dieting going into the Olympia
40:46most likely your carbohydrates were not
40:48at your normal amount I'm assuming that
40:51you pull them down so you're not going
40:52to see necessarily you know the same
40:55idea of response that you're going to
40:56see as you your offseason but again what
40:59is that there's no reflection on what's
41:00in that bottle of growth at all you know
41:03it might not even affect the outcome of
41:05how you look yeah right we don't know
41:08and that's the thing when we we all look
41:09at Labs right we all we all coach we all
41:11look at these things labs are much more
41:13complicated than just looking at a
41:14number in a range right there all of
41:16those things especially endocrine system
41:18play off each other and there's tons of
41:20ways that they all interact and it's not
41:23sometimes as simple as just one number
41:25right like what's causing something to
41:26be off
41:28we could do we could do a video one time
41:30on on how to read all the end markers oh
41:33my gosh right people love going over lab
41:35work um I I do want in this episode
41:38because I know I only have like 15
41:39minutes with left with you is to give
41:41some people some real takeaway that are
41:42utilizing growth hormone that run into
41:45problems because they're there it's real
41:47simple to take growth I I would have a
41:48great response but a lot of times what
41:50you're doing in the coaching world is
41:51like hey this happens what do I do like
41:53I can't tolerate this and so that's a
41:55lot of like the coaching tricks that
41:56start coming in play which there's I
41:59think the biggest one you'll hear about
42:01and I I guess I didn't have this on our
42:03question list but was uh hand numbness
42:05and issues waking up sleeping and that
42:08seems like I can't even tolerate this
42:09stuff um do you have any suggestions
42:13around this aspect to maybe make from
42:16not happening to begin with OR once it
42:18is happening what what do you do from
42:20there so I would say yeah I mean we can
42:23go over all the best practices as we
42:24know right and again there's no like
42:26most there's no absolute like the the
42:29response I'm going to give doesn't mean
42:30that that's 100% right all the time
42:32medicine is based in averages and I
42:34don't I can't speak to every person
42:36watching this video right because we're
42:37all unique and what even amongst the
42:39three of us we might respond totally
42:40different to different things I would
42:42say with the easiest way to
42:45just not even get the numb hands to
42:47begin with OR prolong it as long as
42:49possible is to start really low right
42:52now I was just going to back up for a
42:54second the majority of this conversation
42:56is geared toward so growth hormone like
42:59other hormones is sexually dimorphic
43:00meaning it responds differently in men
43:02versus women women's response to growth
43:05hormone is significantly different and
43:08the these dosing and and the advice
43:11isn't necessarily the same for women
43:12people could reach out to me if they
43:14have questions for females because the
43:15dosing is and the the utilization and
43:18the you know the tolerance all these
43:20things are very different um for so for
43:22men I would start low start at two or
43:25three units right and stay there for a
43:26couple weeks it doesn't if you don't
43:27feel anything it's fine stay there and
43:30then go up and go by single units right
43:32go up to if you start a three try four
43:35and then stay there for a couple weeks
43:37and go up really slowly if you reach a
43:40point where all of a sudden your hands
43:41start to go numb the first thing I would
43:43do is back off to the previous dose for
43:45a couple weeks a lot of times then when
43:47you go back up to that dose it's gone
43:50right it's just again your kidneys are
43:51getting used to this new amount of
43:52sodium so growth hormone causes sodium
43:55phosphorus nitrogen pottassium or I
43:58sodium is going to be outside of the
43:59cell and that's what's going to cause
44:01the hand numbness it's going to compress
44:02the medial and the brachial nerve inside
44:04the wrist it looks like an emergency
44:05break on a on a car like if you've ever
44:07seen emergency break it's a cable inside
44:09of a sleeve the sleeve is there to
44:10protect it the nerves run through a
44:11sleeve the sodium basically compresses
44:14the sleeve and pushes on the nerve and
44:16nerves taper as they get toward the ends
44:18of your hand so they're they're very
44:19tiny and they're going to be sensitive
44:20to that stuff it's not necessarily like
44:23a diabetic neuropa that you you know if
44:25you read some of these side effects
44:26those that's not exactly what that is
44:28and nor is it technically carpal tunnel
44:29syndrome because it's not causing the
44:31straps to grow it's just compression
44:34from sodium um so I'd start low and and
44:38re and like I said previously revisit
44:40like the amount of sodium and pottassium
44:42you're taking in your diet a lot of guys
44:44especially in the last five or 10 years
44:47have really increased their sodium
44:48intake expecting something out of that
44:51that sodium is probably not going to do
44:54just be cognizant of what you're taking
44:56in the seasoning you're using in those
44:57sorts of things you might need to
44:59significantly reduce that in order to
45:00not get those sides and Po and
45:03potentially either add potassium rich
45:04food in your diet or you can even use a
45:07supplement as long as you're very
45:08careful right you don't want to
45:09potassium is one of those things you
45:10have to be very mindful of the dose um
45:12and go by lab work like get get them
45:15both you know where they're in the
45:16proper range um we don't ever see anyone
45:20in the emergency room that comes in like
45:22you come into the emergency room labs
45:23are run right I've you never seen anyone
45:25sodium deficient unless this something
45:27severely wrong so it's in America at
45:29least or First World countries generally
45:31people are in sodium deficient so most
45:33guys probably don't need to add a ton of
45:34salt to their diet right unless they're
45:37sweating a ton or doing you
45:39know so that that's another place I
45:42would start um yeah usually your serum
45:44sodium is more reflective of uh fluid
45:47status over your actual sodium stat
45:50sodium intake status yeah someone super
45:53dehydrated their sodium level might be
45:54super but you see that in chloride as
45:55well too that generally goes down as
45:57well with fluid is off but I think you
45:59give great Insight here Kurt because if
46:01you know how something works kind of
46:03know what to address so what is the
46:04issue it's like water retention and so
46:06if you're retaining more water this is
46:08why those aspects are occurring to
46:10address it well yeah lower your dose and
46:13hold it there because I think with a lot
46:14of these issues around growth hormone
46:16say with blood glucose rise it's kind of
46:17transient like it kind of comes up and
46:19then it stabilizes and you start
46:21regulating it just like a new water a
46:24balance in the body like you regulate it
46:26you get used to it right um I think you
46:27bring up another great Point around what
46:30a bodybuilders do in the offseason that
46:32might be altering their fluid balance is
46:35like well food gets higher what do you
46:37drop out no veggies there's like no
46:38potassium uh then also you have more
46:41variations in your diet sodium fluxes
46:44that causes more more shifts in uh your
46:47water balance too and can can lead to
46:48those problems and I think the last
46:50thing that she brought up what I hear
46:52guys that have that problem is that they
46:53just jump in growth hormone with a high
46:55dose and and then yeah guaranteed you're
46:58going to have side effects if you go
46:59right to it and it's um and I did that
47:02myself I went from 3 to six and N within
47:03a month I couldn't even feel my hands I
47:06had to go back to six I stayed at six
47:07for a little bit and then I went back to
47:08nine I have not had problem since it
47:10just you know it was just dumb I was
47:12trying to rush something and it wasn't
47:15working now this is a lot of people
47:18knows this around sleep and so on the
47:19topic of sleep we do usually see the
47:22growth hormone improve sleep however I
47:25have these individuals that have reached
47:26out out in clients too where they have
47:29like poor sleep on growth hormone and
47:32and it's seems rare of course and it
47:34seems counterintuitive but nonetheless
47:37like you have them not take girl thr and
47:38they're like yeah I sleep better and I
47:40don't know if you've encountered this
47:42because it's rare and if if there's an I
47:46don't even know if we know the
47:47explanation around this maybe it's on
47:48blood glucose regulation or something so
47:51it's generally there going to be blood
47:53glucose right or they could be eating
47:54too late close to bed it's usually going
47:56be blood sugar thing or it's possible
47:58that the dose versus what the pituitary
48:01is putting out is not adequate so I've
48:04seen in younger guys if they take three
48:06units for instance even though that's a
48:08milligram it's possible that by the time
48:10they absorb it and it gets in the system
48:11that it's less than their brain was
48:12naturally producing and it's going to
48:14actually cause worse sleep right in that
48:16case um if all the other things are
48:19addressed something you could try maybe
48:21try to take it in the afternoon maybe
48:22try to take it in the morning then and
48:24see if that actually helps your sleep I
48:26would say best practice though with
48:28growth hormone Administration and this
48:30is just from the last 50 years of
48:33studying the drug and how it's used
48:34medically so you have risk versus reward
48:36with anything right not to say that that
48:38you couldn't use it other ways but it
48:41seems the most practical safest way to
48:43use it is to take your entire dose at
48:45night before bed right so you have no
48:46food by the time it absorbs your gut is
48:49clear you have no food in men
48:51specifically that's your biggest bolus
48:54that's going to be secreted so it's it's
48:56mimic what your body would naturally be
48:58doing your igf and stuff will still be
49:01elevated in the morning so if you're
49:02doing fasted cardio you're still in a
49:04great place versus if you take it during
49:06the day you can run into blood sugar
49:07issues right because now you're blunting
49:09some of the the ability to take in
49:11glucose into the cell uh fatigue I don't
49:14know if you ever got that if you I I
49:15tried to split up 18
49:17once um I was taking 18 units and I
49:19wanted to split it up throughout the day
49:21just to see and I I literally couldn't I
49:23couldn't stand for more than a couple
49:25minutes without feeling tired so I was
49:26sitting all day um so it's not a really
49:29practical use to do anything if you
49:30can't actually get anything done uh
49:32versus when you take it at night you
49:34typically don't experience those things
49:36if you talking about blood sugar I know
49:39you you mentioned this before with the
49:42video blood like blood sugar vers like
49:45is is the blood sugar rise a concern so
49:48it doesn't seem so so we're taught that
49:49we generally don't even look at fasting
49:51glucose outside of someone who's
49:53diabetic who has to figure out how to
49:54dose their insulin A1C is a much better
49:56predictor of what's actually going on
49:58because you have tons of things that go
50:00on in the human body that can affect
50:01glucose from stress to sleep to Dawn
50:04effect um so it's not always the
50:06greatest thing as long as your A1C is
50:08staying you know in the low fives
50:11generally not a concern because
50:12sometimes with Gran you will see your
50:13fast and glucose go up but as a
50:15long-term Trend as long as it's not
50:17staying like that it's not a
50:19concern right you get an average of 10
50:22points up from fast and glucose from
50:23growth hormone in most people but that
50:25doesn't he's going to increase you you
50:27take it at night it's in your system for
50:2910 to 12 hours you're going to wake up
50:31maybe eight hours later growth still
50:33having action of raising blood glucose
50:35and Insulin higher it's G to be there
50:37you kind of almost want that to happen
50:38as that is part of its uh transition to
50:41its anabolic role um interesting thing
50:44around sleep is like I was talking to
50:46someone and they were having problems
50:49with grow with feeling lethargic during
50:51the day and taking growth from at night
50:53kind of went down this you know path of
50:55like timing Etc and and I think even
50:57with our last topic around hand swelling
51:00is we look straight to like the root
51:01issue of like first is what it should be
51:04but a lot times we look at like the kind
51:06of The Superficial one like uh growth
51:08hormone what do I do with this well
51:09what's also happening the offseason
51:11right uh you're gaining body weight
51:13you're retaining more water Sleep
51:15Quality is probably going down
51:16potentially around sleep apnea so
51:18talking with one individual he had sleep
51:21apnea and he just wasn't wearing his
51:22mask and as he's gained like 20 pounds
51:25it's gotten worse he's more lethargic
51:27during the day it's like H that's
51:28probably your issue over the growth
51:31hormone which I think a lot of guys that
51:33could be the problem in the offseason
51:35and not your growth hormone making you
51:37feel lethargic all day y um it it I
51:40don't know if that is an application we
51:42talk about someone with poor sleep
51:44potentially and is it around blood
51:46glucose is uh maybe that is like a PM
51:49dosing of lantis for could be specific
51:52case um I haven't played around with
51:55that enough because that situ ation is
51:57very rare but but it it maybe
51:59potentially um also we've seen like
52:02split dosing of shifting a little bit to
52:05the am doesn't have as much influence on
52:07blood glucose and would just lower your
52:09total dose in the evening I'm just
52:11saying like if you if you to pick one
52:13simple way yeah agree one of the things
52:15I try to do with Fitness is I try to
52:17make it as simple as possible because if
52:19I'm going to tell people to inject
52:20something six times a day who is doing
52:21that like you're really traveling with
52:23your GH everywhere you go you're doing
52:24it work you know you're you're like I
52:27just to simplify it I think it's easier
52:29just to take it a night you're going to
52:30get the same effect as you would you
52:33know give or take by splitting it up and
52:35you're most likely less health problems
52:37at least for the average person that
52:38doesn't mean that that's always the
52:39answer for everyone though see the last
52:41thing I was going to see have best
52:43practices is with with all peptides you
52:46know and Insulin included you don't want
52:48to inject the intramuscular so when you
52:50you lose about 20% when you put a
52:52peptide into a muscle growth hormone
52:54specifically doesn't the growth hormone
52:56re ctor on muscle doesn't it's not
52:58translocating in like like an andren
53:01receptor it's a cell surface thing and
53:03it's acting on Downstream Pathways like
53:06mtor that are inside the cell when you
53:09put growth hormone into a muscle cell
53:11because growth hormone is related to
53:12It's a cyto Kind your body senses an
53:15immune response and it tries to kill the
53:17growth hormone and you might end up with
53:19so you see guys that get welts and and
53:21all sorts of strange side effects and
53:23growth hormone so generally not the best
53:26idea to be sticking it in a muscle it's
53:29it's why you see across the board in all
53:30the pharmaceutical Brands it always is
53:32used
53:34subq um but again it's it's you know if
53:38people want to do what I am then so be
53:39it you can do what I am uh you know that
53:42just doesn't make a ton of sense that's
53:44not how the drug was designed it's
53:46pretty similar to injecting testosterone
53:47subq I'm not really a big fan of putting
53:49oil under my skin either but again if
53:52that's it's super low tolerance like
53:53it'd have to be a very very low amount
53:57um is is what I've what I've found but
54:00change changes the phonetics as well a
54:01bit too same with growth hormone I know
54:05some people brought up the idea of like
54:06if you use an if you're going to do say
54:09a daytime dosing using intramuscular
54:11because you get a quicker rise put it
54:13around training maybe less impact around
54:15blood glucose for the entire day is that
54:18like looking at the tree and missing
54:19kind of the for aspect probably 20% like
54:23unless you just have money you know
54:25coming out of ass it seems like kind of
54:27a waste to make any drug less efficient
54:30and and really like i' I've done I've
54:32done it ejectable cartine right is
54:34intramuscular yeah doing subq oh geez
54:37who can tolerate it but what what do you
54:39stop I stop using it because I want one
54:42less damn intramuscular injection so
54:45just do it subq you're at your GH like
54:47it it's it's completely applicable that
54:49way that to be on the stomach tricep you
54:52do it on your thigh anywhere you can
54:53grab skin you can put it it doesn't
54:55matter it's going to absorb right
54:56there's no that's another broin there's
54:58no really like localized growth that's
55:00inflammation that you see when you stick
55:01it in when you stick a drug into a
55:03muscle that's not necessar causing some
55:05sort of cellular response at the muscle
55:07that's gonna there might be some tiny
55:10little acute amount but it's not over
55:11the course of your bodybuilding career
55:13it's not going to net you any more
55:14growth in fact it might just put Scar
55:15Tissue somewhere that's going to limit
55:17your growth or change the shape of that
55:19muscle right like you see guys with
55:21glutes that are really jacked up from
55:22too many injections or shoulders that
55:23are jacked up yeah um so so I would just
55:26minimize as like you said as many things
55:28as you can inject into your muscle as
55:31possible yeah no these are these these
55:33last segment are all great like
55:35takeaways for everyone Kurt and I I know
55:37we're at time so I want to just give you
55:39a moment because I I mentioned about
55:42your growth r book but also for people
55:44that want more information about you or
55:47if you do individual coaching or
55:48anything that you'd like to speak to um
55:51please uh take the floor let us know
55:53where we can find more information on
55:54you and your your business business uh
55:58I'm on Instagram at kurt. Havens uh
56:00YouTube kurt. Havens unfortunately I
56:02don't get a ton of time to make my own
56:03content anymore I need to start doing
56:06that again um I'm on a bunch of other
56:09people's podcasts like figure Steve you
56:11know here uh Dr
56:14Dean um I have a forum I so I I coach
56:18it's Atomic life coaching.com if people
56:20are looking for coaching or
56:21consultations and I have a form as well
56:24uh because I understand a lot of people
56:26can't afford to just hire a coach or pay
56:29for a console but they need some sort of
56:31help and I'm trying to help as many
56:33people as I can so forum is like a low
56:35price price point entry so that you can
56:38you know I I'll still interact I can
56:40answer simple questions and stuff um and
56:43it's a it's a good Community there
56:45that's forum. Atomic life.
56:48coaching
56:50um I think that's pretty much it most my
56:53on
56:54Instagram that's a huge value out it if
56:56you can get a forum with with one of us
56:58to ask us questions and Kurt is a is a
57:01wealth of knowledge around these
57:03topics it seems like an easy no-brainer
57:07thing that I would do like if I had that
57:08when I was younger hey join this forum
57:10for a cheap price and you could ask this
57:12guy that knows all the answers um and
57:15gets yours and have good application
57:16that would
57:17be so valuable so anyway Kurt appreciate
57:22everything you're doing and putting out
57:23information and just raising the bar for
57:26peed knowledge and uh just kind of dis
57:29dismantling all the Bro lore that's out
57:32there um and then thank you for your
57:33time to come on the the podcast I know
57:36you're a busy guy so we appreciate it
57:38thank you guys so much all right
57:40everybody we'll talk to you next time
57:42and thank you for tuning in

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