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Opening Theoretician David Vigorito on How to Study Openings — Transcript

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0:00The London systems can be used like
0:01Magnus Carlson has played it like as a
0:03weapon. Like good players will use it as
0:04a weapon. If you're a beginner rated
0:06below a thousand, like playing like like
0:09the ready opening, what are you going to
0:10do with it?
0:10>> What openings do you recommend for
0:12beginners?
0:12>> Yeah. Gambit play like like younger
0:14players or developing players are going
0:16to learn faster in a tactical battle.
0:19>> Are there any openings at club level
0:20that you feel are just overpowered?
0:23>> To me, Blitz is like a very good way to
0:25practice your openings.
0:28Hey folks, welcome to the Chessible
0:29YouTube channel where today we're
0:31speaking with international master David
0:33Vigorito. [snorts] David is a six-time
0:35state chess champion, a chess coach, an
0:37opening theoretician, and the author of
0:39the gold standard 184, which just
0:41dropped on Chessable a few weeks ago to
0:43much acclaim. Today, we're speaking with
0:45David about all things related to
0:47openings training, how to choose an
0:49opening, how to progress with your
0:50opening studies as you progress through
0:52the skill ladder, and more. David,
0:54thanks for being on the show.
0:55>> Hey Drew, thanks for having me. Good to
0:57be here.
0:57>> So, your opening courses are
0:58extraordinarily deep, but let's say
1:01you're a beginner, maybe a club player.
1:04How deep should your opening repertoire
1:06be?
1:06>> I mean, I think for for beginners, it's
1:09a lot less important. Um,
1:12you just have to make sure you kind of
1:14survive the opening. Like when I was uh
1:17first started playing tournaments, I was
1:18kind of afraid to play like double king
1:20pawn openings with black because uh you
1:24know I was afraid of all the gambits and
1:26and things like that. You know, Evans
1:27gambit, fried liver, stuff like that. Um
1:31but I think if you can navigate some of
1:33those things, the opening is a lot less
1:36important than like tactics and stuff.
1:38Do you have a sort of move
1:40recommendation like how many moves deep
1:42you should prepare various lines, what
1:45lines you should cover, anything like
1:47that?
1:47>> Yeah, I mean it depends like if you're
1:49going to play like like I said like E4
1:51E5 with black, you have to uh make sure
1:54you can avoid like the the fried liver
1:56attack. You can just play like the
1:58Italian game with like bishop c5 instead
2:00of knight f6. Um you know, don't allow
2:04scholars mate, things like that. But I
2:06think once you uh avoid some of the
2:09traps then in a lot of other openings
2:12it's it's not so important. So I'd say
2:14in those openings maybe you need to know
2:16like five to 10 moves deep.
2:18>> And as you get better how should the
2:21depth and the breath change?
2:23>> It depends like what level you're at. Um
2:26I remember when I first started even
2:28maybe before I was playing tournaments
2:30like when I learned that there were
2:31different openings I found it all very
2:34interesting. Like I remember a a friend
2:36in middle school playing like E4 E6
2:39against me and I thought he was just
2:41like being silly. I didn't realize like
2:43it was the French defense and it was it
2:46it was a real opening. Um I mean I think
2:48it goes hand inhand with other things
2:50like uh you know you don't necessarily
2:52have to learn how to mate with like a
2:53knight and a bishop if you're a
2:56beginner. You know at some point you do
2:58but I think it's the opening is just one
3:00part of the game. So you have to just
3:02integrate it into into everything, but
3:04it shouldn't be the only thing.
3:05>> How much should the ratio of how much
3:07you study openings change as you go up
3:09the rating ladder? I would imagine that
3:12Well, certainly at world champion level,
3:14it's almost all they study. As you start
3:17out, maybe it's much less, maybe 10% or
3:1920%. Um, what are your your views on
3:21that?
3:22>> Yeah, I mean, it's always been thought
3:23like that people spend too much time on
3:25the opening. Um, and yeah, like you
3:28said, like, all right, be beginners,
3:30it's probably not so important. You have
3:31to make sure you don't like hang all
3:32your pieces, but at the highest level,
3:34it's probably almost all openings. Um,
3:39I mean, I I think that it's important. I
3:42remember like a long time ago like
3:44reading like Anan said, he actually made
3:45big improvements when he started setting
3:47a lot of uh different openings just cuz
3:49he he learned a lot of ideas. But yeah,
3:53things are are a lot different than they
3:54were maybe 1015 years ago. I think the
3:57opening is actually more important
3:59because uh a lot of players like young
4:02players, they're good tactically and
4:05they're using tools like chessible to
4:07[snorts] learn their openings really
4:09well. So if you get caught out in the
4:12opening, you can be in trouble. Like
4:13everybody just knows it better. Cuz I
4:15remember, you know, 10 years ago, um I
4:18could beat like masters right out of the
4:19opening. uh and now it's like you can't
4:22even beat like 1900 players out of the
4:25openings. So I think it's actually grown
4:28in importance.
4:29>> You mentioned that Anan thought it was
4:31better to study a multitude of openings
4:33to get more experience and variety. Do
4:36you generally agree with that statement
4:38or is it better to learn just one very
4:40well?
4:41>> Yeah, I mean I've seen different
4:42approaches. Um I've always kind of been
4:46interested in a lot of different things.
4:48I get bored easily, which perhaps led me
4:51to being like a a jack of all trades,
4:53master of none. Uh, meanwhile, I had a
4:56friend that only played like one or two
4:57openings and he knew them really well,
5:00but if he was out of his element,
5:04um, he really, you know, didn't know how
5:06to handle like other openings. He was
5:08shielded against that cuz he simply
5:10didn't play openings that that weren't
5:12part of his repertoire. But I just kind
5:14of found it um you know to be kind of
5:17boring to just play the same thing over
5:19and over again. I think the best thing
5:21that I've heard is like you should know
5:23something about everything and
5:25everything about something which you
5:26know makes a lot of sense. Be an expert
5:28on what you're going to play but it's
5:29also good to have some general knowledge
5:32of of everything especially because some
5:35some ideas overlap. I actually remember
5:37another thing. I think it was something
5:39in like Anun's best games or something
5:42that was uh like a game and like a
5:44Sicilian
5:46like classical Sicilian like rouser
5:49and he did some idea and I think it was
5:52like Ivanchuk or something said like oh
5:53I see you use my idea from the Catalan
5:55like two like totally unrelated openings
5:58but there was still some kind of you
6:00know tactical device that applied to to
6:03both. So very unusual case.
6:06>> And so would you discourage a beginner
6:08from learning system openings like the
6:10London system or Kings Indian attack?
6:12>> Yeah, it depends like how beginner I
6:15guess. I mean I think like like the
6:18London system to me it's uh of course
6:20like it can be used like Magnus Carlson
6:22has played it like as a weapon. Like
6:23good players will use it as a weapon. Um
6:26but for lower rated players I think it's
6:28I don't know. It's almost like a crutch.
6:30like it's going to get you to like move
6:32what move eight or 10. You just make the
6:34same moves every game. Like nothing too
6:36bad can happen, but I don't know how
6:39much you're going to learn and you're
6:40going to get like the same type of
6:42position every game. So it's not going
6:43to expose you to different kinds of uh
6:46you know middle games. So and Kings
6:49Indian attack kind of kind of similar. I
6:52think it's I don't know inherently kind
6:54of passive. So would you discourage uh
6:57beginners and intermediates from
6:59learning the hyper modern openings
7:02>> like the ready and stuff?
7:03>> Yeah, like the ready modern opening 1
7:06B6.
7:07>> Yeah, I mean to me it's like these
7:09openings uh which I've played like you
7:11know they require they require like some
7:13degree of like sophistication
7:16to be able to fight for the initiative.
7:18Um whereas if you're playing like like
7:21E4 aggressively
7:24uh or you know D4 and C4 like
7:27aggressively, it's going to be much more
7:29natural in fighting for the initiative
7:31rather than kind of creeping around the
7:33edges with like you know knight f3 and
7:35b3 and moves like that. I just I I think
7:38it's like too slow, too sophisticated if
7:40you're trying to really improve. So
7:42would you say there's like a strategic
7:45understanding that you need to build
7:46first before playing those openings?
7:49>> Yeah. Yeah. I I think so. Um because
7:52when you when you play that way, even if
7:53you get an advantage, like you have to
7:55know how to how to prosecute it. Now, of
7:57course, it's all relative like, okay, if
8:00you're if you're a beginner rated below
8:03a thousand, like playing like like the
8:05ready opening, like uh what are you
8:08going to do with it? It's it's hard for
8:09me to imagine, but okay, maybe if you're
8:11like a 1800 or 2000, then that might be
8:13a different story, you know, but I've
8:16played various openings where there's
8:17just like all these like little
8:18subtleties and you're you're still like
8:21kind of memorizing things, but instead
8:22of trying to like knock somebody out uh
8:25like we do in my my uh E4 course, like
8:28you're you're learning all this stuff to
8:30try to just get some like little
8:31advantage and stuff. So, I guess I grew
8:34kind of tired of that. Going back to
8:37system openings, do you think somebody
8:39who learns them as a beginner might hit
8:42a a wall at some point? How how does
8:45that dynamic work?
8:46>> Oh yeah, absolutely. like if you play
8:48the London system like you'll be pretty
8:51safe but
8:53um I guess it's hard for me to picture
8:56like playing an opening like that that's
8:59that's very solid but uh doesn't expose
9:03you to different positions doesn't fight
9:06directly for the initiative like how are
9:08you going to improve like in in leaps
9:09and bounds like um you know if you play
9:13like open Sicilian with white or
9:15something you know maybe you have like
9:16an epiphany at some point where you
9:18you're learning how to attack and stuff,
9:20but um you know the London everything's
9:23going to be like like fairly closed up.
9:26>> So you would advocate even just going
9:27for the open Sicilian or Roy Lopez or
9:30all those main lines even as
9:32>> Yeah, I mean it doesn't have to be those
9:35specifically. You know, you could play
9:36like D4 and C4. And even if you do that,
9:39there's like a lot of different ways to
9:40play. Um, you know, you can play
9:43something like a Catalan fianto setup or
9:45you can play something like really
9:47aggressive like uh F3 and the Nimzo
9:51or or something like that. And I was
9:53kind of playing in an attacking way like
9:54trying to pawn storm almost like you
9:57would uh almost like a close Sicilian
9:59but like with my pawn also on on C4. So
10:03I was I was trying to attack. Um,
10:06but you know, I I played that like for a
10:09while, but then I I started learning
10:11other things, too, cuz I I get bored,
10:13like I said. So, I'm always trying to
10:14kind of learn new things. Even now, as
10:16like a uh a experienced old-timer, I'm
10:20still uh curious about openings that I
10:23never like played in tournaments, you
10:25know, and still like looking at just
10:27like random things uh you know, just for
10:30something new.
10:31>> And you're learning now?
10:34Oh, well, I don't know if I can tell you
10:36that. [laughter]
10:37Well, I mean, you know, it's like at
10:39different points. It's funny because uh
10:40you know, when you're a beginner, you
10:41learn like E4, E5 for black. Then I was
10:43like scared of all the gambits, right?
10:45When I started playing tournaments, I
10:47remember even I was like,400 and some uh
10:50very old-timer played like the Evans
10:52gambit against me and I didn't know what
10:54was going on. And uh I think it was like
10:57a draw, but there was like blunders for
10:58both sides were both winning at
11:00different points. I didn't know what was
11:01going on. And uh then later when I
11:04became like I don't know 2400 I was like
11:06I am I started playing a like learning
11:09E4 E5 again. Um so I think it was
11:14actually something like missing from my
11:16development that I didn't really play E4
11:19E5 for black like from almost from
11:23like400 to 2400. And I think it it would
11:26have probably helped me if I had played
11:27it in there somewhere.
11:29>> Um well that brings up an interesting
11:30point. You said that you thought that
11:34certain openings don't really warrant
11:36any worry. I I thought maybe it might be
11:38the opposite in the engine era where
11:42almost everything feels playable
11:43nowadays. New openings all the time are
11:45being invented where it's like, okay, we
11:47found a way to make, you know, two queen
11:48H5 playable and and that kind of thing.
11:51You're not worried about it or what?
11:53>> Someone's going to do something like
11:54that.
11:56You you might see it like once a year if
11:59that, you know. Um, yeah. Okay. If you
12:02have a local at the club and he likes to
12:04play E4, E5, queen H5, you're going to
12:06spend like a little little more more
12:08time on that. But, uh, you know, I think
12:12it's like you should spend like
12:1499% of your time on the stuff you're
12:17going to see 99% of the time.
12:20>> How do you feel about uh preparing
12:22towards players? Like, you know, a club
12:25player is going to study their
12:26repertoire. They go into a tournament. I
12:30think a lot of them just play their
12:31repertoire and they're fine. At what
12:33level should you start really preparing
12:34for the opponent that's going to be in
12:36front of you?
12:37>> Well, if you're if you're at a a local
12:39club and you're going to play like the
12:40same person all the time, like all
12:42right, then you might have to prepare.
12:44But let's say you're playing in like a a
12:45region like I am like in in
12:47Massachusetts, New England, but it could
12:49be anywhere. It could be Southern
12:50California, could be in in France, could
12:53be anywhere. Um I think actually a lot
12:56of it depends on your level. um not
13:00because you have to prepare more at a
13:03certain level but because
13:05uh certain levels like your games aren't
13:07even going to be available.
13:09>> How much of a advantage that does that
13:11confer and in what way does that appear?
13:14So in other words, is the preparation
13:17mostly understanding what opening to
13:19choose or is it understanding their
13:22style of play? What does preparation
13:25even look like? Usually I don't have
13:27time to like study the style of play.
13:30Like I know I mean in American
13:31tournaments like Swiss tournaments round
13:33robbins are different but in a Swiss
13:35tournament like sometimes you get the
13:36pairing like half an hour 45 minutes
13:38before the round. So you can't like
13:41really study their games for stylistic
13:45uh weakness. But even in like the early
13:492000s I played in Budapest a few times
13:51and uh you play around Robin. You know
13:54who you were playing. But the openings
13:56weren't as detailed then and it was
13:57almost like you were just trying to get
13:58a sense of what they would play and just
14:01like almost like choosing. So let's say
14:04I see they play E4 and this happened
14:06many times not only in Europe but if I
14:08see they play E4 and I'll say all right
14:10what do they do against a Sicilian? What
14:12do they do against E5? Or you know any
14:14opening that I might might consider
14:17might affect uh my choice. But I think
14:21yeah, a lot of times when I would have
14:22this half hour to prepare, almost the
14:24whole half hour was spent deciding what
14:26to play, not actually
14:29trying to prepare uh deeply. When you
14:32prepare multiple openings, how is it
14:34good to vary your repertoire? Do you
14:36want like one aggressive option and one
14:38solid option for each case? So one one
14:42for white, you know, one for against one
14:44E4 as black and one against one D4 as
14:47black and so forth.
14:49How do you think about how players
14:51should develop their repertoire in that
14:53way and at what level?
14:55>> The level might be like a little tricky.
14:56I think for a long time you can just
14:58have one opening and you know like like
15:00I said like know everything about
15:02something right before you know
15:03something about everything. I for a long
15:05time like for black I had like my main
15:08openings were quite sharp was knight of
15:10Sicilian and Kings Indian like an
15:12influence of uh Fischer who was actually
15:14before my time believe it or not and
15:16then later like Kasparov did the same
15:18thing and then I also started playing
15:20like the Kokan and the and the Slav and
15:23semislav a lot. So, I kind of had like,
15:25you know, the sharp knightf and the
15:27solid koan and um and then I had like
15:32the sharp kings Indian and like the the
15:35bunch of the Slavs and stuff. Uh so that
15:37I could vary a bit. It was interesting
15:39because I had like a really good record
15:40with a Karo Khan like even against good
15:42players and I had a bad record with the
15:44Slav. And I'm not sure why. The only
15:47thing I can think of is like that I
15:51tended to play the Slav only against
15:54like really strong players and so maybe
15:57you know they were just better than me
15:59and um
16:01you know there were also some like
16:03theoretical lines there. But I think it
16:04can be useful to have like something
16:06like kind of solid and something kind of
16:08sharp. You'd be surprised though
16:10sometimes like you know people think
16:11like oh I don't want to play like the
16:13Slav or the Kakhan against like a weaker
16:15player because it's like hard hard to
16:16win. You want to play sharp against
16:17them. But sometimes that's the case. But
16:19sometimes I I kind of have the opposite
16:21feeling like if you're playing someone
16:22lower, you don't want it to be like
16:25really sharp and random. You want to
16:26like keep control
16:28uh so nothing can go too wrong. Whereas
16:30if you play somebody like very strong,
16:32you might want it to be like really
16:34sharp or like any mistake um might like
16:38run into trouble. Uh you know what I
16:40mean? So it's kind of like um it can
16:43also make sense to play like classically
16:46against a lower player. I guess like if
16:48you play sharp against a lower player,
16:50you're you're more likely to win, but
16:52you're also more likely to lose like
16:54have an accident. Whereas if you play
16:56like really solid against a lower
16:57player, you're, you know, much less
17:00likely to lose, but maybe like a draw
17:01becomes also a lot more likely, you
17:04know.
17:06But I think like having a couple things
17:08is good idea.
17:09>> When it comes to game time, is the
17:11choice of your opening more influenced
17:13by who you're playing or the tournament
17:15situation?
17:16>> Probably by who I'm playing. Yeah,
17:19there's certain times like maybe
17:22uh I think they're rare. like let's say
17:23you like have to win with black and
17:25you're half point behind or something.
17:26Maybe you don't want to play something
17:28that's like likely to be uh drawish. Um
17:33but you know, I've done all kinds of
17:36things that didn't make any sense at the
17:37board. Like I've made all kinds of like
17:39bad decisions uh at the board and I've
17:42also made like very spontaneous
17:43decisions that like worked out well. So
17:46[laughter]
17:47>> sometimes that's a factor too. It
17:49depends on how you feel that day. you
17:51know, I've had days where I think, you
17:53know, maybe I didn't get a good night's
17:54sleep or something like that and, you
17:56know, I'm not sure if I want to play a
17:57sharp tactical opening in that scenario,
17:59you know.
18:00>> Yeah. I mean, I think usually like you
18:01should just if you you should just play
18:03what you know best and uh because the
18:05thing is like like when you play the
18:07like when I played this perk like and I
18:10lost like I I leave the board with
18:11nothing like I just played a bad game
18:13and I lost. It's like if you play your
18:14stuff and your opponent prepared
18:17um and and something goes wrong and you
18:19lose at least like you learned something
18:21right for for the next time. But if you
18:24just play some kind of junk and it
18:25doesn't work out like you know what have
18:28you done?
18:28>> So David, you're a coach. Uh I imagine
18:30you take on beginner students quite a
18:32bit. What openings do you recommend for
18:34beginners?
18:35>> Well, I usually just have them playing,
18:37you know, the double king pong stuff.
18:39Um,
18:41you know, uh, something like the Scotch
18:43Gambit is kind of nice. Um,
18:47because if if black doesn't know what to
18:49do, then the position is open quickly
18:51and it's various traps and stuff like
18:53that. Uh, I noticed like a lot of times
18:57when kids play because everyone tells
19:00them to play like double king pawn. Uh,
19:03when someone plays like D4, a lot of
19:06players with black like have very little
19:07experience. Um, but the the upside there
19:11is even if they don't have much
19:12experience, like if you play like D4 D5
19:15and don't really know what you're doing,
19:16like nothing too terrible will happen
19:18compared to, you know, the something
19:21like the Italian game or the Scotch
19:23Gambit where, you know, it's all the
19:24accidents on on F7. So, yeah, I mean, I
19:28think just playing double king pawn for
19:30a long time, um, you know, until you're
19:33a certain level. I'm not really sure
19:35what that level is. Like if it's like a
19:36thousand or something. I've always kind
19:39of found it hard to
19:41to tell like what's the difference
19:43between like a let's say a 400 player
19:45and an 800 player. Like I can't really
19:48tell by by looking at the games. It's
19:51only kind of when you break a thousand
19:53that you can,
19:55you know, figure out what's going on
19:57there. I feel like up to there a lot of
19:59it just who, you know, who's taking the
20:00free pieces and who's not, stuff like
20:02that.
20:04but it's not necessarily an opening
20:06battle.
20:07>> I've heard uh from some coaches that
20:09they like to recommend gambits because
20:10it teaches the the value of time in the
20:14opening. Do you basically agree with
20:16that statement or do you think that you
20:17can learn from just about any opening,
20:19any decent opening?
20:21>> Well, I think I think the answer is yes
20:22to both. like like a a lot of openings
20:24you can learn something from, but like
20:26because of the dominance of like the
20:28double king pawn games like you know uh
20:31yeah gambit play like like younger
20:33players or developing players are going
20:35to learn faster
20:37um in a tactical battle where things
20:40like open up. So if you're like a
20:43beginner like I don't think you should
20:44be like playing the French and be
20:47studying pawn chains and stuff like
20:49that. You have to make sure you know
20:50you're you're taking care of your
20:52pieces. because you're getting your your
20:53king castled, right? In the French, like
20:55you don't even always castle. Uh some
20:58you put your king on D7 or something
21:00like that. Uh so yeah, the gambits can
21:03help. Like I mean the Scotch gambit is
21:05like
21:08I I think it's good. It's not like some
21:09like wild gambit where you're just like
21:11giving everything away. Um I have a
21:14student who sometimes plays like he
21:16learned it on his own. when he starts
21:17studying the Evans Gambit and it works
21:19well cuz uh you know people take on B4
21:22and then he plays C3 and it's it's
21:24almost like he gains a couple tempe um
21:28on a normal position that's dangerous
21:30for black and if they don't know what to
21:32do uh then it's risky like it it works
21:36very well I think at lower levels
21:37because people aren't like so good at
21:39defending it's easier to attack at
21:41defend
21:41>> are there any gambits you would say are
21:43maybe too dubious like maybe Danish
21:45gambit or something like that.
21:47>> I mean, the Danish gambit is probably
21:49like quite playable. I remember like the
21:51the theoretical answer, right? Uh the
21:55Danish gambit's where you give up all
21:56the pawns, right, on C3 and B2. The
21:59theoretical answer was like this this
22:01kind of comical line where black like
22:03gives back both pawns and gives away the
22:05queen and then wins the queen back and
22:07stuff. White probably could play that
22:09way, but you know, some things can be
22:11declined too. Like uh my whole life
22:13sometimes I had to deal with like the
22:14Moa gambit in the um Sicilian, but
22:19that's a gambit you can just like very
22:21easily make a practical decision to
22:23decline and you end up in like a C3
22:25Sicilian. So I used to take the pawn and
22:29you know I did pretty well there too,
22:30but it's like just very practical to
22:32just decline the pawn and go into a C3
22:34Sicilian. Are there any openings at club
22:36level that you feel are just
22:38overpowered? Like they just get amazing
22:41results at club level somehow?
22:42>> No, I mean I think the Scotch Gambit
22:44does well uh when players get a little
22:47stronger. I think like the dragon
22:49Sicilian dragon's like a very good
22:50learning opening. Um I used to play it.
22:53There's just like a lot of lot of uh
22:56tactics of course like with opposite
22:58castling like battle for the initiative.
23:00There's a lot of material sacrifices.
23:02you know, white often sacrifices a pawn,
23:04black often sacrifices the exchange. So,
23:07I think that kind of opening can kind of
23:09help like strong developing players
23:13uh kind of get in touch with the fact
23:14that like material is not the only uh
23:18consideration like in in the middle
23:20game, you know, that that other things
23:23count too. But I don't think there's
23:25anything you can win really quickly
23:27with. I know sometimes people play with
23:29like the Stafford gambit and win quickly
23:31or I think like the Vienna gambit like
23:34E4, E5, knight C3, knight F6, F4, like
23:38you might be able to like crush people
23:40with that until they figure out what to
23:42do. But in a way, the answer is no,
23:43because once the opponent learns what to
23:45do, then it's not going to be
23:47overwhelming anymore, right?
23:48>> Do you play blitz chess?
23:49>> Do I play blitz chess?
23:50>> Yeah.
23:51>> Yes, of course.
23:53>> Do you have a different repertoire for
23:54blitz versus classical?
23:56>> No, not really. cuz I think blitz is
23:58like good for practicing out the
23:59practicing the openings you want to
24:01play. I've probably done some things
24:03like some silly openings kind of like
24:05you know like when you're on tilt you
24:06lose some games and you start playing
24:08angry chess but that usually means it's
24:10just time to stop. But to me blitz is
24:13like a very good way to to practice your
24:16openings. But I remember like you know
24:18you study like let's say you study the
24:20knight or Sicilian for black and then
24:21you go you go online to play and like
24:24all your opponents will play like the
24:26London system or B3 on move one and
24:28you're like I just like I want to
24:29practice the Sicilian. Everybody starts
24:31doing like silly things, you know?
24:33>> All right, David. Well, it's been a
24:35wonderful conversation. Anything else
24:37that uh players should know when they're
24:39studying the opening? Well, just uh you
24:41know, work hard and go get uh the gold
24:44standard E4 or some of my other courses.
24:49>> Absolutely. It's an excellent course.
24:50Highly recommend everybody checks it
24:52out. Uh international master David
24:54Vigorito, thanks again.
24:55>> All right. Thanks again for having me.

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