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Once You Understand This, Talking to People Becomes Effortless — Transcript

by Mark Manson · 7,908 words · 1,358 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00This is a topic that I actually I don't
0:01touch very often uh of communication,
0:04how to how to be more charismatic, how
0:06to connect with other people really
0:08well. It's something that I talked about
0:09a lot in early in my career, but I
0:12haven't really gone near it for many
0:14many years. Uh and so I think you're the
0:16perfect person to have here.
0:18>> Okay.
0:18>> Thank you for coming all the way
0:20overseas.
0:20>> Thank you. And I'm excited to talk about
0:22this topic that you haven't talked about
0:24for so long in your career because
0:25you're so good at the craft of
0:26communication.
0:27>> Thank you.
0:28>> So I think it's going to be cool for
0:29both of us to jam on this topic.
0:30>> Yes.
0:31>> To see both perspectives of someone
0:33who's a practitioner
0:34>> Right.
0:34>> who teaches it. And I kind of draw it
0:36out.
0:36>> Please.
0:36>> So the way the way I think of it is I
0:38think of well, why do most people want
0:40to learn communication? It's because
0:42they want more influence.
0:47They want more influence. And when I
0:48think about influence, I I I think of it
0:51as
0:52well, what what makes somebody really
0:54influential?
0:56Well, it's
0:57it's you have to be able to do the
0:58following. You've got to be able to
0:59influence the way people think, [music]
1:04you've got to be able to influence the
1:05way people feel,
1:07the way they behave,
1:09and you also got to be able to influence
1:10their beliefs.
1:13And when you can influence
1:15all these things,
1:16>> [music]
1:16>> that's what then allows you to be
1:18influential.
1:18>> Mhm.
1:19>> Right? And there are key skills I think
1:21that are really important to learn to
1:23become more influential and be able to
1:24influence in these four areas. And the
1:26first one is V.M. [music] which stands
1:29for vocal mastery.
1:30>> Okay.
1:31>> The next one is B.L. which is body
1:33language. And over here
1:35S.T. which is storytelling. And then
1:38A.L. which is active listening. These
1:40four skills
1:42make influence in these four areas
1:46much easier.
1:47>> Mhm.
1:48>> So if you're trying to influence people
1:49and and you notice you notice this when
1:50you see people who are overly loud, it's
1:53because voice is their main method that
1:55they're trying [music] to use to
1:56influence you.
1:57>> Mhm.
1:57>> Or some people who are just body
1:58language like overly touchy.
2:00>> Right. Because they're just using one
2:01skill to try to achieve this.
2:02>> Right.
2:03>> [music]
2:03>> So, I think it's it might be useful for
2:05us to talk to these four.
2:06>> Sure.
2:07>> Because that's what leads to more of
2:08this.
2:09>> Right.
2:10>> And [music]
2:11>> So, where That's how I view it. Where
2:12where do you see First of all,
2:15where do you see
2:17people mess up the most? And then I'd
2:19also be curious when you see somebody
2:21who is like a master communicator,
2:22[music]
2:24what do you What do you think that they
2:25lean into the most? What makes them so
2:27good?
2:28>> [music]
2:28>> Oh, okay.
2:29Mess up the most?
2:31>> Mhm.
2:34>> I would say it's listening.
2:36Uh the way I think of it is
2:38voice and body language is how you play
2:40your instrument.
2:40>> Right.
2:41>> Storytelling is the music that you
2:43write.
2:44>> Okay.
2:44>> And then listening is you learning how
2:46to appreciate the music that other
2:47people sing.
2:49So, as I think of it in that sense.
2:50>> Very cool. I I love that I mean, as a
2:52former musician, I love that analogy.
2:54>> Oh, okay. Cool.
2:55>> Yeah. I love that analogy. It's seen
2:56kind of seen
2:57almost the body as an instrument, right?
2:59Which in many ways it is.
3:00>> Well, it is because your voice is
3:01connected to your body and your body is
3:02connected to your voice. So, you learn
3:04how to play the instrument really well,
3:05then you learn how to write music that
3:07moves people.
3:07>> Yeah.
3:08>> But then you
3:08>> [music]
3:09>> But then some people who who only do
3:10these three, they become the person
3:11that's always storytelling, always about
3:13them, me me me me me, and they never
3:15learn how to appreciate other people's
3:16music.
3:16>> Yeah.
3:17I I find it interesting that the active
3:19listening
3:21is situated between beliefs,
3:23>> [music]
3:23>> change all influencing people's beliefs
3:25and influencing how they think because I
3:27I think everybody's
3:29base assumption is that the way that you
3:30influence other people's beliefs and how
3:32they think
3:33>> [music]
3:33>> is to just yell at them and and tell
3:36them that they're wrong and explain like
3:38how your idea is better. So, it this is
3:40a little bit counterintuitive. I'm I'm
3:41I'm curious to hear more about this. I'm
3:43curious to listen
3:44to you explain more about
3:46>> good. That's That's a good That's a good
3:47segue. The reason why I think listening
3:49is such a critical part of communication
3:51is that if you're not listening to the
3:53person, well, then how do you know what
3:55songs you should be playing?
3:57How do you know what's going to be
3:58relevant to the other person? How should
3:59you How How should you adjust the way
4:01you're playing your instrument so that
4:03you can create more harmony with what's
4:04happening in front of you?
4:06So I think a lot of the times
4:06miscommunication is just
4:09the pitch is off. You're not in harmony.
4:11One person's saying this in this way
4:13with a certain delivery mode. The other
4:14person's saying something else in a
4:16different delivery mode. You completely
4:17miss each other and the the music sounds
4:18terrible. And I think when there's
4:20harmony, there's connection.
4:22>> Right.
4:22>> And when there's connection, you're much
4:23more likely to change the beliefs
4:26your beliefs because now you know they
4:27care. You can show them you care. They
4:30they seem like they care. And then
4:31you're much more willing to change the
4:32way you think and the things you
4:33believe.
4:35But that all starts with you actually
4:36knowing what the hell is going on.
4:38>> Right.
4:39>> Which I don't think we do this much
4:40anymore. And I I'm I'm I still suck at
4:42this.
4:42>> Yeah.
4:43>> I'm still learning to be better at this.
4:45And it's it's a skill that we don't get
4:47taught.
4:48>> Yeah.
4:48>> I don't think we get taught any of this.
4:49We've been given one of the most given
4:51one of the most complex instruments in
4:52the world.
4:53>> Mhm.
4:53>> And no one teaches us how to play any of
4:55it.
4:55>> Yeah.
4:55>> Nor how to appreciate other people's
4:57music.
4:58>> There's something interesting about this
4:59too psychologically. So
5:02if you go way back in the Freudian days
5:05when when Freud first peop- put people
5:07on the couch and had them just talk
5:09about their dreams and their fantasies
5:11and all sorts of stuff.
5:14They couldn't really explain why, but
5:16they noticed that if you put somebody on
5:17the couch and just had them talk about
5:19their lives and their thoughts and their
5:20feelings,
5:21they started to feel better. And
5:24at the time they actually called it the
5:25talking cure. And it was simply having
5:28somebody in the room
5:30actively listening.
5:32Occasionally asking a poignant question.
5:34>> Yeah, I'm like, "Oh, why why do you feel
5:35that way?" Or like, "Oh, that's
5:36interesting. Where does that come from?"
5:38>> And it's funny because this is how
5:40therapy functions. Like the therapist in
5:43in a lot of situations isn't actually
5:46doing a whole lot. They're just letting
5:49giving you a container to express
5:51yourself and sort through your own
5:54[ __ ] and beliefs, you know? And cuz
5:57there's something about verbalizing
5:59things that
6:00that, you know, maybe if something's
6:02rattling around in your head, it seems
6:03like this kind of catastrophic problem
6:05or this huge deal or you're really
6:06insecure about it, but then as soon as
6:08you say it out loud to somebody else
6:10and they just sympathetically smile,
6:11you're like, "Oh yeah, it's not really a
6:13big deal, is it? I think I'm totally
6:15fine. I don't I don't need to believe
6:16that anymore." Right? It's it's kind of
6:18magical in a way.
6:19>> It's why I have a psychologist on my
6:21team.
6:21>> Okay.
6:22>> Dan's a psychologist. So, one of my team
6:23members is a psychologist of 14 years
6:25and that's why we love talking to him.
6:28>> Mhm.
6:29>> Because he listens.
6:30>> You need to hire somebody like this.
6:32>> Yeah, nobody else on my team ever
6:33listens to me. Whereas Dan listens to
6:35me, he cares, right? [laughter] And I
6:38think that's what makes him such a
6:39beautiful human being because we always
6:41feel so cared for around him. And then
6:43sometimes it's weird because as as men,
6:46we always try to solve problems. Got to
6:48solve a problem and I just remember
6:49sometimes I just talk to him about our
6:50problems and I I kind of I kind of feel
6:52better.
6:53>> Yeah.
6:53>> But we didn't solve it though.
6:54>> [laughter]
6:54>> That's such a or such a weird experience
6:56for me because I've never been around
6:58somebody who listens
6:59>> Right.
6:59>> really well. And when you're around
7:01somebody who listens really well, then
7:02you go, "Oh wow, it it just feels good
7:04just to be able to talk about it."
7:05>> Yeah.
7:05>> I don't necessarily have to solve it,
7:07which revolutionized my marriage, man.
7:09>> Oh yeah.
7:10>> Oh dude, it changed.
7:11>> Yeah.
7:11>> Cuz I always was in solvent mode.
7:13>> Yes.
7:13>> But now I realize, hey, I can just
7:14listen
7:16and I can just be that sounding board
7:18and I don't have to solve it. Yeah.
7:19Takes the pressure off me. She loves me
7:21more.
7:21>> Mhm.
7:22>> So, I think I I did not know this.
7:25Yeah, it's not something I innately was
7:27good at. I wasn't innately good at any
7:28of these.
7:29>> Right.
7:29>> So, I think for context, that's why what
7:32you said at the very beginning of the
7:33video is so important is because this is
7:34a skill.
7:35>> Yeah.
7:36>> English is my third language.
7:37>> But what is your origin story?
7:39>> My origin story?
7:40>> Yeah, yeah. Give us the lore of of Vin.
7:43>> Oh. [laughter]
7:45Okay, so I I started life not knowing
7:49English in a school where everybody
7:50spoke English.
7:52So, then I think when I use the word
7:54isolation,
7:55it has a slightly different meaning cuz
7:57I truly felt isolated cuz I didn't know
7:59what they were saying.
8:00>> Right.
8:01>> know what I was saying. I knew
8:02Vietnamese and Chinese and
8:06I mean, the saddest part was I used to
8:08feel so ashamed of not knowing what the
8:11hell was going on. I still remember Mom
8:14making me an egg sandwich with cucumbers
8:17and soy sauce, fantastic. And I used to
8:19sit and eat it in the toilet
8:21cuz I didn't want to be seen alone.
8:24>> Wow.
8:24>> And I remember slowly picking up the
8:27language, but the way that I picked up
8:28the language was hearing my name and
8:31then very quickly hearing laughter.
8:33I was like, "Oh man, that that's That
8:35just means they're teasing me."
8:36>> Yeah.
8:36>> And I was able to pick up based on how
8:38they were using voice, I was able to
8:40pick up how their body language was
8:41towards me. That's how I started my
8:43journey.
8:44>> Mhm.
8:44>> And then to the point where to build
8:46confidence, I got into magic.
8:49And I didn't learn magic because I
8:50wanted to
8:52astonish people. I learned magic because
8:55it was honestly one of the most
8:56fraudulent ways to get attention. Yeah.
8:58So, if I did something, people go, "Wow,
8:59you're amazing. I've never experienced
9:01that before in my life."
9:02>> Mhm.
9:03>> Then it became a crutch in my life where
9:05then I couldn't have a conversation with
9:07you if I didn't show you magic.
9:09>> Right.
9:09>> So, then I had to comp- always do magic,
9:12always do magic, and it became
9:13nauseating.
9:14>> Mhm.
9:14>> So, it helped me, then it hurt me.
9:17And then I
9:18did accounting and law
9:20because I wanted to please Mom and Dad.
9:22And then I hated it and dropped out
9:24final year
9:26and became a professional magician.
9:28So, I became a professional magician and
9:30I think the whole journey of my life of
9:33becoming a professional magician to
9:34professional speaker
9:37was always because I never got
9:38attention.
9:39>> Mhm.
9:40>> And being a speaker was like the
9:41ultimate way to get attention. So, I
9:44realized my whole journey has been
9:45trying to solve the problem of how do I
9:47get people's attention? How do I get
9:49people to care?
9:49>> Yeah.
9:50>> How do I get people to like me?
9:52Because I starved it as a kid.
9:53>> Yeah.
9:54>> I starved it so much as a kid. So, it
9:56came out of desperation
9:58learning all these skills.
10:00>> This kind of ties back to the
10:01authenticity piece, but it also relates
10:03to the getting attention. Like I I think
10:05there are healthy and unhealthy ways to
10:08maximize these sorts of things, right?
10:09Like, I could
10:11use effective body language in a just a
10:15really dickish way, right? And and
10:17>> like how?
10:18>> Uh like just you know, be like, "Oh,
10:21what's up, bro?" Like, you know, start
10:22doing the
10:23>> Like like sitting on a pillow like this.
10:26>> I don't know. I don't know what you're
10:27talking about. I don't know what you're
10:29talking
10:29>> If you don't know this about Mark, Mark
10:30sits on a pillow.
10:32I just want I just want to just call
10:33that out for a second. He sits on a
10:35pillow. Do you notice how I seem a bit
10:36shorter?
10:37Do you notice how I seem a bit shorter?
10:40So, talk you know, tell us about the
10:41dickish ways in which you use it.
10:42>> Oh, man.
10:44>> [laughter]
10:46>> Well, you know, when you have a
10:47sensitive
10:48ass at that end.
10:50>> [laughter]
10:52>> Sometimes you need to help sitting up
10:53straight.
10:53>> Right. Now he's making up vulnerable.
10:55Now he's trying to win you back over,
10:57but I I I know what you're doing.
10:59But I but I I I appreciate that, I
11:00think. Thank you for your vulnerability.
11:03I appreciate that. It's age. It's what
11:05happens.
11:06Yeah.
11:07>> [laughter]
11:08>> But But back to what we were saying, the
11:10the dickishness of the
11:11>> Speaking of dickishness, yeah.
11:13>> [laughter]
11:14>> Thank you for demonstrating So, that was
11:16a verbal form of dickishness.
11:19>> And he showed you the body language
11:20form. I showed you the verbal. Yeah.
11:21[laughter]
11:22>> I I So, one of one of the things I talk
11:24about a lot in my work is is kind of
11:28communicating unconditionally. And so,
11:30you you brought up a really interesting
11:31point there where you were saying early
11:33on when you were doing magic, it was
11:35very much motivated you there was kind
11:37of this desperation for attention and
11:39approval and validation
11:41um and probably to impress people. It's
11:43It's a very natural human need.
11:46But what's interesting is that
11:49it's
11:50when all of your communication is done
11:52very conditionally,
11:54um it's
11:56it ends up feeling kind of empty and
11:57superficial.
11:59Whereas
12:00when you act unconditionally, um
12:03that's kind of when like genuine
12:05connection seems to feel very natural
12:08and authentic. And I think there's like
12:11Now, if I can draw something actually. I
12:12wasn't planning on doing this, but have
12:14you ever seen the uh like that skill
12:16matrix of like uh
12:20Hopefully, I don't [ __ ] this up.
12:23It's like
12:27unconscious
12:31and conscious
12:33and then it's like
12:35uh unskilled
12:37skilled.
12:38>> Mhm.
12:39>> And it's whenever you're adopting a new
12:40behavior, you start here. You're bad at
12:43it. You don't realize you're bad at it.
12:44Then you go to being bad at it, but you
12:46realize you're bad at it. And then you
12:47go to
12:49I'm good at it, but I still have to
12:50think about it. And I'm like doing it
12:52>> [music]
12:52>> I'm doing the magic tricks cuz I know
12:54I'm going to get approval, but then the
12:56last step is you have to come here,
12:58which is
12:59you're being natural. It's like an
13:01unconscious habit that's now kind of
13:03been installed in your brain, and you're
13:04you're now acting
13:06>> [music]
13:06>> unconditionally. There's a vast
13:07emotional difference between these two
13:09things. Cuz it's like if I'm like
13:12consciously altering my behavior cuz I'm
13:14like, "Okay, this is going to make Vin
13:15like [music] me."
13:17Even if you like me, it's going to feel
13:19really unsatisfying.
13:20>> Yeah. [music]
13:20>> Whereas, you kind of have to get to this
13:22point where it's just you're just
13:24{quote} being [music] yourself.
13:25>> Yeah.
13:26>> Right?
13:26>> Yeah.
13:26>> To feel the satisfaction of like, you
13:29know, actually having that relationship.
13:32>> What you drew gives us an insight into
13:34where people feel that fake and phony.
13:36>> Yes.
13:36>> They feel the fake and phony here.
13:37>> Yes. [music]
13:38>> Because you're so conscious of the
13:40technique.
13:41>> Mhm.
13:41>> And when you're purely focusing on the
13:42technique, [music] it feels off. It
13:44almost And this is where my students
13:45struggle, too. This is when they go, "Am
13:47I manipulating the other person?"
13:49>> Right.
13:49>> Like, what am I doing?
13:51>> [laughter]
13:51>> Because they folded their arms, do I
13:52fold my arms now?
13:53>> Right.
13:54>> I doing? And And I think that's where
13:55people feel that. That's why most people
13:56don't get to this. Because there's so
13:58many psychological obstacles that live
14:00here and here. Right here, you don't
14:01know anything. Here, you the unknown
14:03unknown. You don't even know you're a
14:04bad communicator. You don't even know
14:05you're bad at the thing you want to do.
14:06But here, as you start to become
14:07conscious of it, you become hyper
14:10self-aware.
14:11Which is often it could be a good thing
14:12and a negative thing. Yeah. this is
14:14where most people stop. They don't get
14:16to this part. But if you think about
14:17this beautiful picture you drew, right,
14:18which is
14:19yours is drawn bigger than mine, which
14:20is fine.
14:21>> [laughter]
14:22>> Everything is a power play. Hey, I mean
14:24a lot of everything.
14:25>> Your book is bigger.
14:27>> It is bigger than yours.
14:27>> You had to put it
14:28>> We could just quickly do a size
14:29comparison.
14:30>> [laughter]
14:30>> It's quite But it's only subtly bigger.
14:32I've got that much on him. It's that
14:34much on him. I've got that much on him.
14:35>> It's pretty good. Sometimes Sometimes,
14:37you know, we need to overcompensate.
14:39>> He has sold way more copies.
14:40>> [laughter]
14:43>> You got You got to get the inch in where
14:44you can find it.
14:45>> Hey,
14:45>> [laughter]
14:46>> I
14:50>> [laughter]
14:51>> We've got to focus, Mark.
14:52>> Yeah.
14:52>> We've got to focus, Mark.
14:53>> What is this video?
14:54>> I don't even know what's up.
14:56>> [laughter]
14:57>> Or
14:59I feel that the the the best analogy
15:02when we think of this is driving.
15:04>> Yeah.
15:05>> Driving is a skill that most likely
15:06we've all mastered, hopefully.
15:07>> Hopefully.
15:08>> Hopefully.
15:09And if you have mastered it, when you
15:11think about you wanting to go to the
15:12grocery store, do you still think about
15:14I've got to put my seat belt on? I've
15:15got to make sure the rearview mirror is
15:16right. Oh, wait, your handbrake,
15:18obviously, after you turn on the car.
15:20>> Yeah.
15:20>> You don't think about that anymore. Now
15:22you just think, oh, grocery store.
15:24And sometimes you forget the driving
15:26process while you're driving.
15:28>> Yeah.
15:28>> You don't even think about it. It feels
15:29natural when you're indicating and
15:31turning. And then there are times when
15:32people fall into a trance driving and
15:34then they get there and they're like, I
15:34don't even remember driving.
15:36>> Mhm.
15:36>> That And that's when it starts to feel
15:38super natural and authentic. But the
15:41price you have to pay is you've got to
15:42go through that.
15:43>> Yeah.
15:43>> And not stop yourself while you're going
15:45through this part of the process and
15:46going, oh, that's not me. Oh, I'm
15:48manipulating. Just just check in.
15:51Because if your intentions are creating
15:53a win-win situation,
15:54>> Mhm.
15:55>> you're not trying to lie and and and
15:58withhold information, then you're not
16:01manipulating.
16:02>> Yeah. [music]
16:02>> And then if the person doesn't agree
16:03with what you're saying and chooses a
16:04choice that you didn't want them to
16:07choose, that you wanted them to choose
16:08this, they chose this. And when that
16:10happens, you don't get upset, but you
16:11respect it.
16:12>> Mhm.
16:13>> Well, that's all right. You're not
16:14manipulating. Manipulating is when they
16:15don't choose what you want. You go, oh,
16:16but I've been your friend for 17 years
16:18As if you can do this to me."
16:19>> Okay, that's kind of manipulating now.
16:20>> Yeah.
16:21So, I think as as just just be careful
16:23you're not the one stopping yourself.
16:25And it's what it's what I often say to
16:26my students all the time.
16:28Don't be so attached to who you are in
16:29the present.
16:30>> Yeah.
16:31>> You don't give the future version of you
16:32a chance.
16:33>> But first, I'm excited to share today's
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17:06Most of us never find out which paths
17:08those are, but that's the kind of thing
17:10that 80,000 Hours digs into. They've got
17:12dozens of articles answering questions
17:13like how much difference can one person
17:15actually make, and which jobs actually
17:17help people the most. They've got a
17:18podcast with experts on the world's
17:20biggest problems, and a job board full
17:22of roles that have real impact.
17:24Everything 80,000 Hours provides is
17:26completely free. Their only aim is to
17:28help you dream bigger about your career
17:30and the impact that you could have on
17:31the world. So, if you go to
17:3380000hours.org/markmanson,
17:35they will send you an extensive career
17:37guide that walks you through building a
17:39career that energizes you and fulfills
17:41you.
17:41>> [music]
17:41>> That's 80000hours.org/markmanson.
17:45>> We just shot a podcast on manipulation.
17:47It should be on the channel now,
17:48actually.
17:48>> Okay.
17:49>> And one of the things that we talked
17:50about is what is the difference between
17:52influence and manipulation? Like you
17:54could argue that
17:56all communication is kind of a
17:58>> Such a fine line.
17:59>> You are influencing the people around
18:01you, and so what makes it good or bad is
18:03I think the intention behind
18:06the communication, not the not the
18:09you know, whether the communication
18:10feels fake or forced or or whatever
18:12itself. But I I I do want to talk about
18:14your big beautiful book over here.
18:16>> Yeah.
18:17>> It is
18:18So, it's titled Before We Forget How to
18:20Connect. It It What is it about this
18:22that you think
18:24we're [snorts] losing?
18:26Or we're forgetting.
18:27>> I think when it comes to communication
18:29specifically,
18:29>> Mhm.
18:30>> it's these are the four things I worry
18:32about. Because when I I think about when
18:35my students come into our classes and
18:37I'm pushing them to play with their
18:38voice differently,
18:39>> Yeah.
18:40>> there's so much friction there.
18:42Right? And when I push them to use their
18:44body like there's so much friction
18:45there. And I think often about my my
18:47kids. And when I see them play when
18:49they're young with their voice and their
18:50body, they're so free with their
18:52instrument. They have so much access to
18:54that. But then as we get older, we start
18:56to limit ourselves. We lose certain
18:57notes. We shrink ourselves. We become a
19:00lot smaller. We share less stories. You
19:02just see the way my kids just share
19:04stories. They're outrageous. They're
19:06beautiful in in in their their own way.
19:08But then we stop sharing stories. Uh so
19:11I worry a lot about because we're out
19:13there dating less, because we're out
19:15there connecting less with our friends,
19:17because we're engaging with our devices
19:18more and more and more. We're using the
19:20instrument a lot less.
19:21>> Right.
19:21>> So, if you're using it less, that means
19:23you're probably here
19:24>> Yeah.
19:25>> with how to use the instrument. So, then
19:26[music] when you meet somebody and they
19:28invite you to play a song, you're like,
19:30"Oh, [ __ ] I I And you don't even know
19:32how to hold a chord."
19:33>> Right.
19:33>> And then you'll play something terrible
19:35and then you immediately label that
19:36with, "Oh, I suck at this. I suck at
19:38this." So, then you hide more.
19:40>> Mhm.
19:40>> You [clears throat] hide even more. Or
19:42you might play the instrument well and
19:43then someone invites you to play a song
19:45and share a story and then you tell it,
19:47they get bored, they don't listen, they
19:48don't engage, and you go, "My stories
19:50suck."
19:51>> Yeah.
19:51>> I don't want to share more about myself.
19:53So, I think I think it it all comes
19:55together because these are these are the
19:58foundations for connection. Because you
20:01could say the right words, but if you
20:03say it in the wrong way,
20:05then people receive it
20:07incorrectly.
20:08>> Can you give us an example?
20:10>> The the
20:10>> Like like demonstrate.
20:12>> So so with my with my wife, for example,
20:14>> Mhm.
20:15>> I wanted to play games with the guys cuz
20:18we love to game. And two words, she can
20:21say, "It's fine." So, she could say,
20:23"Yeah, it's fun."
20:24>> Mhm. That means it's okay, Mark. But, if
20:26she goes, "Yeah, it's fine."
20:27That's not okay, Mark.
20:29Right? That's not okay. And like I never
20:32realized the difference when I was
20:33young. When I was young, I never
20:35listened to the vocal differences.
20:37I just heard the words. So, if she said
20:40it's fine, then it's fine. Then you come
20:41back the next day, you're in trouble.
20:42And you're like, "Why? You said it was
20:43fine." And that's just such a basic
20:46version of an argument. And it comes in
20:49so many different forms.
20:51You know, it's "Hey, why are you late?
20:53Is everything all right?" It's concern.
20:55"Why are you late?
20:57Is everything all right?" Now, suspicion
20:59and annoyed and pent-up resentment
21:02because you didn't take out the trash on
21:04Thursday, and now we're stuck with more
21:06trash.
21:06>> Yeah.
21:07>> Yeah, just done it. Yeah, done that.
21:08>> It's the story of my life.
21:09>> Yeah, here it is.
21:10>> Okay, last question. Where should people
21:12start? Like, if if somebody Okay,
21:15struggles with communication, is in in
21:18has no idea where to begin.
21:21What do you think they should do ask
21:22themselves first?
21:24>> The first thing you should do is know
21:26where you are. Okay. So, if you if
21:28you're here, if you're basically here
21:30and you you unknown unknowns, well, it's
21:32time to develop self-awareness, and
21:33you've got to record a video of
21:34yourself.
21:36You've just I mean I mean, how many
21:37times have you watched yourself back? I
21:38think a huge part of the process of you
21:40being so great is you watch yourself
21:42back.
21:43>> Yeah.
21:43>> And and I think that's what I encourage
21:46the listener to do is that make sure you
21:47record a video yourself.
21:48>> Yeah.
21:49>> And just answer the question. Why do you
21:51want to improve your communication
21:52skills? It's
21:53>> painful, by the way.
21:54>> It is.
21:54>> It's like I hate watching Even
21:57Even now, even like I've been doing this
21:59for so many years, and I still every
22:02It's funny, every time my editor sends
22:03me a cut, and they're like for my my
22:05feedback and my notes, there's like this
22:07little resistance in the first 5 seconds
22:10where I'm like about to hit the play
22:11button, I'm just like
22:12>> You still feel that?
22:13>> Yeah. Yeah.
22:14>> And then what happens after 5 seconds?
22:15>> Oh, it's fine.
22:16>> Oh, okay. Okay, it's fine. It's just
22:17that initial friction. Like, I love
22:19watching myself on camera.
22:21It's fantastic.
22:22>> [laughter]
22:23>> So, uh
22:24I think I think what's important is
22:27start with that video. Answer the
22:28question, speak for at least 5 minutes
22:30just non-stop, and just go. Be And it
22:33has to be improvised. Yeah. Don't script
22:35it. Don't over plan it because we're
22:37trying to tease out well, what are the
22:38non-functional behaviors?
22:39>> Mhm.
22:40>> And you'll be shocked when you watch it
22:41back, then this now becomes powerful.
22:44>> Right.
22:44>> Because as you watch it back, well, just
22:46pick one thing when it comes to your
22:47voice.
22:48>> Mhm.
22:48>> What What do you feel is a limitation?
22:50What do you like?
22:51>> Yeah.
22:52>> And just note it down. But the way you
22:53listen to it is really important. You
22:55have to isolate it. So, while you're
22:56listening to it back,
22:58the first time you listen to it back,
23:00turn up the sound,
23:01press play, turn your phone over, and
23:02just listen. Isolate the auditory.
23:04>> Yeah.
23:05>> And then same thing with visual.
23:07Take the phone over, mute it, press
23:09play, and just look at yourself. And
23:10then isolate the visual. Pick one thing
23:12you like, one thing you want to improve.
23:14And then after that, get it transcribed,
23:15and listen to
23:17the structure of your speech. What do
23:19you like? What you don't like? Take the
23:21transcript, pop it into AI. Right? If
23:24you had to give me feedback on my
23:25communication ability and clarity, what
23:27would you say is the one thing I should
23:28work on first? What's my 80/20?
23:30>> Yeah.
23:31>> And then I share it with you. Maybe
23:32you're rambling. Maybe you got lots of
23:34non-words and filler words. That one
23:37thing that you do, you'll pick up three
23:39things to improve.
23:39>> Mhm.
23:40>> It will transform you immediately just
23:43from one simple exercise.
23:45>> I actually have a funny story about
23:46this. So, when I first started YouTube,
23:49probably like 4 or 5 years ago,
23:51uh I started watching my videos back,
23:54and I was like, "Wow, I seem so low
23:55energy all the time." And it was And it
23:58was funny because I would sit in front
23:59of the camera, and in my head, I'm being
24:01high energy. I'm being like I'm speaking
24:03loudly. I'm enunciating all these
24:04things.
24:05And I remember there was one day I sat
24:08down uh with a script, and I was like,
24:10"Okay, I'm going to shoot three versions
24:11of this."
24:12>> Oh, cool.
24:13>> I'm going to shoot my normal version.
24:14>> Mhm.
24:14>> I'm going to shoot a high energy
24:16version.
24:16>> Mhm.
24:17>> And then I'm [clears throat] going to
24:17shoot a version where I feel like I'm a
24:19[ __ ] insane person. Like like a man
24:22ranting at the camera with his fist in
24:25the air.
24:25>> Okay.
24:26>> And I shot all three versions, and I
24:27went back and my expectation was was
24:29that the the normal version would be
24:31boring, and then the crazy version would
24:33be crazy, and then the one in the middle
24:35would be good.
24:36>> Mhm.
24:36>> What turned out was the the normal
24:39version was terrible. The high energy
24:41one was okay, and then the one that I
24:43thought I was being crazy was really
24:46engaging.
24:46>> Oh, wow.
24:47>> And what I realized is that like my
24:50conception of, you know,
24:53let's say
24:54high energy, low energy. Like this is
24:57what my conception of it was, and I
25:00thought I was over here, but reality was
25:04high energy was like
25:06>> Yeah.
25:06>> actually over here.
25:08>> Yeah.
25:08>> And I was
25:09barely getting 50% of the way, right? Um
25:13>> You have to recalibrate it.
25:14>> Yes.
25:15>> That was a recalibration process.
25:16>> Like my assumptions were just completely
25:18off base, and it was it was very
25:21eye-opening.
25:22>> And the most common one that it has to
25:23happen with
25:24is is actually
25:26>> This is a [ __ ] marker.
25:28>> Yeah.
25:30>> [laughter]
25:31>> Volume.
25:31>> Volume.
25:32>> Yeah. And that's the one that people
25:33have often a terrible internal
25:36perception versus an external reception.
25:38>> Right.
25:39>> There has to be a calibration, because
25:40this happens all the time. When I take a
25:42student in and I help them improve with
25:43their voice, and to them they're
25:46speaking, let's say, at a two out of 10
25:48volume. So they're speaking like this,
25:49very quiet, very relaxed.
25:51And this is all they've done their
25:52entire life. And then I get them to try
25:54to do this. And when they do this, they
25:57they try it, they go, "I'm shouting."
25:59>> Yeah.
26:00>> And then the whole class is like, "No,
26:01you're not shouting." But that's exactly
26:03what you're saying here, and it's often
26:04with volume.
26:05>> Interesting.
26:06>> think a really good activity that you
26:07can do that that allows them to do what
26:09you just did on camera is just write
26:11down a number in your head. Where do you
26:12think you sit on the volume scale from
26:13one to 10?
26:14>> Mhm.
26:14>> Like 10 is just like freaking obnoxious,
26:17right? And just just and then one is
26:19just whispering. Right. So write down
26:21where you think you sit.
26:22And then in your next three
26:24conversations, go out, and at the end of
26:27the conversation just go, "Hey, if you
26:28had to put me on a scale of one to 10,
26:29where do you think I fit?
26:31And you're the average of what they say.
26:34And I think you'll be shocked often what
26:36you think you're at is often what you're
26:39not at.
26:39>> Yeah.
26:40>> You might be quieter or And there's the
26:41other The opposite is a problem There's
26:43There's the other the person who's too
26:44loud.
26:44>> Yeah.
26:45>> They think they're at a five, but
26:46they're just always loud.
26:48>> Yeah, my wife's Brazilian, so her
26:51understanding of normal voice volume is
26:53like an 11. And I'm like,
26:55>> They you're screaming at me.
26:57>> We're in bed alone. You don't have to
26:59You don't have to yell at me.
27:01>> [laughter]
27:01>> Oh, that's awesome.
27:03Oh, well. But but that but I think I
27:04think that's that's why that sensitivity
27:07is so important.
27:08>> Yeah.
27:08>> And then having access to that range.
27:09>> Yeah.
27:10>> Otherwise, you're stuck here all the
27:11time, which I think it can be
27:13exhausting.
27:13>> Yeah.
27:14>> Or you're stuck here all the time, which
27:16makes you invisible.
27:17>> Right.
27:18>> And it So it So then my my my students
27:20then ask the question. They go, "Well,
27:21where should I live then?" And it's like
27:23it it's not about where you should live,
27:25it's about you having access to the
27:26entire scale.
27:27>> Right.
27:28>> in the right moment with the right
27:29context, because I saw you do this. When
27:31we were meeting with all these different
27:32people in Adelaide,
27:33>> Mhm.
27:34>> you you you adjusted slightly as you met
27:37different people. When someone who was
27:38really introverted who came up to you,
27:40you were a little more quiet with them.
27:42>> Yeah.
27:42>> And then when someone who was like me
27:43came up, again, you were a little
27:45louder.
27:45>> Mhm.
27:46>> So as you've got access to more range,
27:48you can more easily adapt in more
27:50different situations. Which again is
27:52it's not manipulation. I don't think
27:53it's being fake. I don't think it's
27:56>> No, it's it's the the musical instrument
27:58analogy.
27:58>> It's harmonica, right?
27:59>> Right. It's like you should know how to
28:01play your instrument quietly. You should
28:03know how to play your instrument loudly.
28:05You should know how to play rock music.
28:06You should know how to play quiet jazz
28:08music, right?
28:08>> There's There's range with body
28:10language, too. And I think often what
28:12happens is once we repeat a behavior for
28:14so long,
28:15>> Okay.
28:15>> we we get stuck in
28:17Like I I A simple one is elbows are
28:19often stuck into our sides. I see this
28:21in my students all the time. And you get
28:22them to do this, and they go, "Ah, that
28:23feels off. That feels wrong. That
28:24doesn't feel" It's like it's the same
28:26thing.
28:27And and I think whether it's with voice,
28:29with body language, you want to A A part
28:31of what I wrote in the book is I get
28:33them to stretch the range in five core
28:35areas with voice. So, that's your rate
28:37of speech.
28:38Learn how to speak slowly. Learn how to
28:40speak really fast.
28:41Volume, we just spoke about.
28:43Emotional quality. Right? That's the
28:45your tonality. The pauses.
28:49Like what we just did. And I think as
28:51you as you learn all the qualities, as
28:52you learn how to do all of that, now you
28:55you maximize your range.
28:56Which is great. Doesn't mean you'll use
28:58all that range, but you have access to
28:59it. Same thing with body language. So,
29:01so learn how to be more playful. Learn
29:03how to increase your gesture vocabulary.
29:05Learn how to move your face more.
29:08Because both instruments are connected.
29:10So, you what you'll find is we go back
29:12to this example, when I get my students
29:13to be louder, what naturally happens,
29:16their face comes to life. They use their
29:18hand gestures now. Right? And then the
29:20opposite is true. When I get them to use
29:22larger body language, then now they're
29:23moving their body. Their voice is louder
29:25and and they they've got a more emotion.
29:27>> So, I did this project with Audible a
29:29number of years ago called Love Is Not
29:31Enough. And they actually hired probably
29:33cuz I was boring as [ __ ] on a
29:34microphone, they hired a they actually
29:36hired me a voice coach. And it was this
29:40wonderful woman. She worked on Broadway
29:41for like 30 years. And she came in and
29:43we spent a few weeks together. And one
29:45of the first things that she told me is
29:46she said, "I realize it's an audiobook.
29:48I realize you're just reading into a
29:50microphone." She said, "You need to talk
29:52with your hands."
29:54And so, she's had me start practicing
29:56talking with my hands as I was going.
29:57And immediately my voice became twice as
30:00interesting. Like all these different
30:02dynamics started coming up, all these
30:03different pauses, and it's
30:05it is crazy how it is just all linked
30:08together inside of our brains.
30:10>> And look how beautifully he's using his
30:11gesture vocabulary. It's amazing. It was
30:13like it was there was there was so much
30:15there.
30:16And that's true. Yeah, thank you. That
30:17was a bit weird.
30:19>> [laughter]
30:20>> I I think it's it's so beautiful once
30:22you start to unlock it because why why
30:25do this, right? Why learn all this? So,
30:27that you can express the ideas. You can
30:29start to share how you truly feel. You
30:31can start to share your thoughts.
30:33Because I think with what you're saying
30:34with the book is that you you you could
30:36have you could have the most beautiful
30:37piece of sheet music.
30:38>> Right.
30:39>> But if the musician sucks and doesn't
30:40play it well, the world will not
30:42perceive it to be great music. And that
30:43music could be an idea, it could be a
30:45pitch, it could be your business, it
30:46could be your offering, it could be the
30:48service that you provide.
30:50That's why it's it's often not the best
30:52business that wins, it's the person
30:54who's able to communicate their idea the
30:56most effectively and excite people that
30:58wins.
30:58>> Right.
30:58>> And then we always get stuck in that
31:00thing where we're like, "Ah, [ __ ]
31:01Steven got the promotion.
31:03>> Yeah.
31:03>> Barry got the promotion. Susan got the
31:05promotion. I'm smarter than them, better
31:07looking than them, and yet they win.
31:09Why?" It's because they've learned how
31:11to play their instrument better with
31:13shittier music.
31:14>> Mhm.
31:15>> And then you're pissed because you've
31:16got a great song, but you've just never
31:17learned how to play.
31:18>> [ __ ] Barry. [ __ ] Barry.
31:20>> Yeah, dude.
31:20>> Yeah. Uh
31:21yeah.
31:22Yeah. We all have a Barry in our lives.
31:25>> So when you see a super engaging
31:26speaker, which of these are they leaning
31:29into?
31:31>> I feel they're using these
31:34equally as well. But what they're doing
31:35that's outside of this is they're
31:38extremely clear, coherent, and concise.
31:41I think super communicators
31:43have beautiful songs,
31:46but they're just succinct.
31:47>> Mhm.
31:48>> As opposed to being long-winded,
31:50all over the place. I feel like they're
31:52able to capture a lot of information in
31:54a very short amount of time. And to do
31:56that, you need to understand how to use
31:58frameworks.
31:59>> Right.
31:59>> I think you've got to put all these
32:01crazy thoughts into a framework.
32:03That's a very important part of the
32:04process. Yeah.
32:05Can I give you an example?
32:06>> Of course.
32:07>> So I think a a really important
32:08framework that that I love doing when I
32:10I teach my students this, because the
32:12problem with people who are extremely
32:13smart is you have this idea that lots of
32:17information equates to lots of perceived
32:19value.
32:20>> Mhm.
32:21>> Whereas I think often you need to
32:22distill it. So I love this framework
32:24called 321.
32:27And with 321, it's essentially just
32:29three steps,
32:32uh two types,
32:34and one thing.
32:36And this is a framework where if you get
32:38put on the spot and you get asked to
32:41speak on a topic,
32:42>> Mhm.
32:43>> you can immediately structure your
32:44thoughts
32:46into one of these components of the
32:49framework. So,
32:51is there a random topic you can think
32:53of?
32:53>> Let's say sales pitches.
32:55>> Okay.
32:57There are two types of sales pitches
32:59that I see.
33:00>> Okay.
33:00>> There's a There's a type of salesperson
33:02that only speaks to the value that they
33:05want, right? So, they speak to you know,
33:06they they want the investment from
33:08people. They want people to buy their
33:09product. And then there's a second type
33:11of salesperson who's thinking about your
33:13benefit. What Why it benefits you. So, I
33:15think there's two types of sales people
33:17out there. Two types of people who pitch
33:18you.
33:19So, again, you you can speak to that
33:21topic straight away because now you
33:22you've got you've got frames. You know,
33:24is it Is it two types? Is it three
33:25steps? Or maybe you said sales pitches.
33:27Like then you can go, "Well, there are
33:28three steps to sales pitches." Or the
33:30one thing that's the most important
33:31thing when it comes to sales pitches is
33:34understand how you can help the person
33:35that's in front of you.
33:36>> Yeah.
33:36>> So, it just allows you to be able to
33:38speak on any topic at a moment's notice
33:40right as opposed to thinking to
33:42yourself,
33:43"Oh, [ __ ] Sales pitches. Do Do I talk
33:44about the way you dress because it's
33:46important for first impressions? Do I
33:47talk about our unique value proposition?
33:49Do I need to talk about our deep
33:51understanding my product or service?"
33:52>> Mhm.
33:53>> And that's when your brain goes crazy.
33:55>> Right.
33:55>> So, I think it's it's important to have
33:57simple frameworks like this in your back
33:58pocket
34:00that allows you to take a complex idea,
34:02use a simple framework to distill the
34:05information.
34:05>> Anything else you want to You want to
34:07leave us with before you go?
34:09>> Look, I I I think
34:10the coolest part about the writing
34:12experience
34:12>> Mhm.
34:13>> was that
34:14I learned that as an author,
34:18I can end a chapter whenever I want.
34:21And I can
34:22include whatever story I want and I can
34:24take the meaning of that story and shape
34:26that meaning however I want. So, this is
34:27my first journey as to to to being a
34:29writer. Right. So, what I loved about
34:31that whole process was this beautiful
34:33lesson in all of that is that
34:35you know, this is different to
34:36communication or can communication if
34:38you want. And it's that
34:40you're the author of your own story.
34:41>> Mhm.
34:42>> You get to write whatever story you want
34:45to write. You If you don't like the
34:46chapter that you're in, then just full
34:48stop, turn the page, start a new one.
34:50And we Though we can't control the
34:52stories that happen to us, we can
34:53control what they mean. So, shift the
34:55meaning. I had some stories that I wrote
34:56in this book. I'm like, "Oh man, that
34:58story's all about shame and it sucks."
35:00But then I I I went, "Oh no, it doesn't
35:02just mean that. [music] It could also be
35:03about courage. It could also be about
35:05bravery."
35:06>> Right.
35:06>> So, that whole process of writing this
35:08has told me that
35:10you know, take your pen back if you've
35:12unfortunately given it away to society
35:13or people or your parents or whoever,
35:15take it back and write your own damn
35:18story. Write a chapter where you do go
35:20on the journey of this beautiful picture
35:22that Mark drew and and and move through
35:24the different levels of mastery and and
35:26and write a chapter where you go on that
35:27journey and you become an incredible
35:29communicator. You become influential.
35:30You learn how to shine your light, play
35:32your music, and and like Steve Martin
35:34says, be so good the world can't ignore
35:35you.
35:36>> Thank you so much for being here, Ben.
35:37It's a pleasure. Um
35:39>> Thanks, Mark.
35:39>> We have another video on his channel.
35:42>> I know.
35:42>> Which we talk about the loneliness
35:45epidemic, people not connecting anymore.
35:46So, check that out. Be sure to subscribe
35:48to him and then
35:50go get the books, man.
35:51>> Go go get his book.
35:52>> Yeah, definitely get mine, but also get
35:54that so you know the difference between
35:55the two.
35:56>> Yeah.
35:56>> Experience the difference between the
35:58two.
35:59You might find size does matter.
36:04>> [laughter]

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