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OJ Simpson Trial - March 20th - Part 1 — Transcript

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0:00present before the court with his
0:01Council Mr Shapiro Mr Cochran Mr Douglas
0:04Mr Bailey people represented by Miss
0:06Clark Mr Darden and Miss Lewis the jury
0:08is not present council is there anything
0:11we need to discuss before we resume with
0:14Detective van Adder I hope your greeting
0:16uh good afternoon was not a comment on
0:18my being five minutes late no it wasn't
0:20did I say that excuse
0:24me your H good morning good morning
0:27yesterday I'm sorry Friday afternoon
0:29weekend passed so quickly uh Friday
0:31afternoon following what I believe was
0:34an in camera hearing with the court by
0:36the defense we received a package of
0:38Discovery materials this morning I
0:41received from Mr braier um a few
0:44additional Discovery materials there is
0:46a noteworthy absence from these
0:48materials we've
0:51received of the notes of observations
0:54and testing and so forth from the
0:56defense domestic violence expert Dr
0:58Lenor Walker all right I thought that
1:00they had communicated with you uh in
1:03their discussions that some of the
1:05matters that my recollection is that Dr
1:07Walker was out of the office and would
1:09be faxing the matters to council this
1:12morning and they
1:13anticipated uh complying with those
1:15matters today or tomorrow was my
1:18recollection that was not exactly the
1:20way that my discussion with Mr braer um
1:22that's not exactly what I was told all
1:24right well Council let's take this is a
1:26discovery matter that we'll take up at
1:27our 3:00 calendar thank you all right
1:29but we will remind me to do that after
1:32we do the DNA
1:37matters all right anything else with
1:39regards to the jury matters that we can
1:40take up all right let's have the
1:51jury joined by all the members of our
1:54jury panel good morning ladies and
1:56gentlemen all right detective van Adder
1:58would you uh resume the witness in
2:05please all right good morning detective
2:08good morning your you're reminded you
2:09are still under oath Mr Darden good
2:11morning sir good morning you may resume
2:14with your direct examination thank you
2:16honor good morning ladies and
2:18gentlemen detective van Adder when we
2:20left off last
2:22uh last Friday you described for us the
2:25the trail of blood that led you to the
2:27defend and is that correct yes sir okay
2:30and you also testified that you uh
2:33believed that you had probable calls to
2:35arrest the defendant on June 13 is that
2:40right that's correct and this term
2:42probable cause what what does that term
2:44mean how would you define
2:47it probable cause is a strong and honest
2:51suspicion that would lead a reasonable
2:55person to
2:57believe that the suspect is involved in
3:00the crime that you're investigating okay
3:03and you harbored such a strong and
3:06honest suspicion that day that's correct
3:08yes but you also told us last
3:13week that you felt that you needed more
3:16before you can present the case to the
3:17DA's office is that
3:19correct I wanted more
3:22yes and why why is
3:27that oh
3:30knowing the filing policy of the
3:32District Attorney's office they want
3:34more than probable cause they want
3:36evidence that will lead to a conviction
3:39which is much farther than probable
3:41cause
3:46evidence you did not present the case to
3:48the DA's office on June
3:5013 no sir I didn't when was the case
3:54finally presented to the DA's office
3:56June the 17th
4:03how many items of evidence of physical
4:05of physical evidence that is were
4:08collected in this case at what point
4:11council at any point total how many
4:13items of
4:14evidence I believe there's approximately
4:17450 items of
4:20evidence I believe that that's a close
4:23number okay and each of these items were
4:26they collected all during the during the
4:29first week after the murders no sir okay
4:33when were they all
4:34collected they've been collected during
4:37the entire time that the that we first
4:40received the case
5:03may I put 123 on the uh Elmo please all
5:06right 123
5:20yeah good detective showing you what has
5:22been marked as people's 123 and may the
5:25record reflect that Mr Fa l
5:28is focusing the
5:30on the uh defend Dan's finger yes in
5:33particular uh is that the way the injury
5:36looked to you when you first saw it on
5:40June 13th
5:42yes was it
5:44bleeding it it appeared to have dried
5:47blood around the edge around the edges
5:49of the wound and it appeared to be
5:51seeping fluid uh not not blood at that
5:54point okay it wasn't dripping blood at
5:56that point no and what time of the day
5:58was it that you uh took this
6:01Photograph or had it taken rather I
6:04believe it was between 2 and 2:30 in the
6:08afternoon
6:10yeah and you also told us that you took
6:13or had a nurse take a sample of the
6:15defendant's blood is that right yes okay
6:17what time in the afternoon was that
6:19sample
6:21taken that would have been after 3:00 in
6:24the afternoon I believe
6:30where was the defendant when the blood
6:32sample was
6:33taken he was in the dispensary section
6:36of the Jail Division okay and the jail
6:39division is located over here on Los
6:41Angeles Street in downtown Los Angeles
6:44that's
6:45correct what did you do with the blood
6:47sample if anything after it was
6:51taken I maintained custody of the blood
6:54sample and turned it over to the
6:56criminalist and where was the
6:58criminalist when you turned it over to
7:00him he was at Rockingham finishing
7:03finishing the work there with the search
7:10warrant and so if I understand you
7:12correctly then detective you took the
7:13defendant blood sample out to
7:15Rockingham yes and why did you take the
7:18sample to
7:20Rockingham well I I couldn't book it at
7:23that point I didn't have any item
7:25numbers I didn't have a Dr
7:27number I knew that the criminalist was
7:30at
7:32Rockingham and as soon as the
7:34criminalist takes custody of a evidence
7:37item essentially I consider that booked
7:40I knew he was there I hand carried it
7:42for him for to him for the chain of
7:45custody and to protect that piece of
7:47evidence okay now you've used three
7:49terms that I'd like to discuss with you
7:50now detective first of all what is chain
7:52of custody chain of custody is to ensure
7:55that uh that at all times we know who
7:59has control of the evidence to maintain
8:02that that control of the evidence to
8:04know where it's going and what's going
8:06to happen to it okay well is it wise to
8:08limit the number of persons that that
8:10take control or possession of uh of
8:14evidence sustain phrase question what
8:19benefit is there if any in limiting the
8:21number of persons who maintain control
8:23and custody of a particular piece of
8:25evidence the benefit in limiting is to
8:28maintain the integrity of that piece of
8:30evidence okay could you have booked the
8:33evidence at uh at Parker
8:37Center I could have booked it but I
8:39didn't have again I didn't have a Dr
8:42number I didn't have a item number and
8:46uh if I would have done that it would
8:48have been setting there with no control
8:50over it that's why I controlled it and
8:52carried it to the criminalist okay well
8:54what is a Dr number detected Dr number
8:56is a division of Records number that's
9:00issued to all crimes each crime has an
9:04individual number okay you mean it's a
9:05file number that's a file number that
9:07identifies that incident yes okay does
9:10the Simpson investigation have a file
9:12number or Dr number
9:16excuse I assume
9:20so
9:24yes does the Simpson investigation have
9:26a Dr number or file number the Simpson
9:29in investigation actually has two one
9:31for each victim okay and when when were
9:34those numbers obtained if you
9:36know yeah I do know I bought those
9:38numbers myself
9:47the I believe the 15th of
9:52June okay you obtained the file number
9:54in this case on June 15 I believe it it
9:57was it was either the 14th or the 15th
10:07okay what is the
10:14ground and where where was uh the
10:17criminalist when you gave him the blood
10:19sample at
10:22Rockingham standing right inside the
10:24front door he was preparing to leave
10:26okay had the blood drops and and the
10:29other evidence that you described for us
10:30earlier been been collected at that
10:32point
10:47yes and the glove the glove detective
10:50Ferman showed you earlier that morning
10:53had it been collected
10:57yes had the Bronco been impact founded
10:59at that point
11:02yes do you recall whether or not the
11:04Bronco was still at the scene when you
11:06arrived back at Rockingham with the
11:08defendant's blood
11:10sample the Bronco was not there
11:30we uh we have copied a closeup
11:32photograph of the uh depiction just
11:34shown the jury that is of the theend
11:36dance finger
11:38may I was about to say 123 a
11:42thank
11:48B this Robertson says
11:51a a it
11:56is did you ever locate an extra set of
11:58keys to the Bronco
12:09no you told us Friday that you that you
12:12had a key to the handcuffs that officer
12:15Thompson placed on the defendant is that
12:18right yes did you give officer Thompson
12:21your handcuffs so that he could handcuff
12:23the defendant no how is it then that you
12:27had in your possession a key to the hand
12:30handcuffs handcuffs used by the Los
12:32Angeles Police Department have a
12:33universal key that every officer has a
12:36key to those handcuffs so your key will
12:39fit any other officer's handcuffs
12:49okay we have a a video tape
12:54of up the fan handcuff on June 13 1994
13:07don't believe we marked it all right
13:09this is the uh vide tape that we viewed
13:12previously all right is the matter
13:14submitted Mr
13:19spel
13:22audio without sound
13:32and have we marked this vide tape as an
13:34exhibit Mrs Robertson indicates no may
13:38be marked peoples
13:4012 all right peoples 124
13:58videotape
14:28for
14:58for
15:27e for
16:22go back to the beginning
16:36Detective When You testified Friday you
16:39told us that you asked officer Thompson
16:42uh to do something is that right yes
16:44okay and what did you ask him to
16:47do I asked him if to detain Mr Simpson
16:51at the front gate if he showed up at the
16:52location and not to let him enter the uh
16:55residence now you had a search warrant
16:56at that time is that right yes if you
16:59know detective does the fact that you
17:00have a search warrant for the
17:03premises uh does that allow you uh to
17:06prevent persons or other persons or
17:08civilians from entering the property to
17:09be
17:10searched yes it was a secured crime
17:15scene did you ever tell officer Thompson
17:17to handcuff Mr Simpson
17:22no and where were you when you first saw
17:24Mr Simpson
17:26handcuffed standing in the kitchen area
17:28of the president okay what did you do
17:31when you saw the handcuffs on Mr
17:33Simpson I immediately responded to his
17:40location I'm going to replay the video
17:44uh at a slower speed I'm going to ask
17:46you to identify some of the persons you
17:47see in the video
18:17now let me stop right there there's an
18:18officer in the background there who is
18:20that officer if you know I believe
18:22that's officer
18:23Thompson let it play some more
18:32is Mr Simpson handcuffed at this
18:35point
18:37yes okay now stop there and you having a
18:40conversation with Mr Simpson is that
18:42right yes okay now at this point had you
18:44remove the handcuffs no you did not
18:48immediately take uh take the handcuffs
18:49off Mr Simpson no I didn't immediately
18:53okay how much time elaps between your
18:56first contact with Mr Simpson and your
18:58removal of the
19:01handcuffs very short time
19:04uh a couple of minutes maybe two three
19:07minutes is there some reason that you uh
19:09delayed that uh two to three minutes
19:11before taking the uh handcuffs off Mr
19:14Simpson I was explaining the situation
19:18to him what was going on and was
19:21awaiting his attorney's arrival there
19:23you expecting Mr Weissman to approach
19:25you and Mr Simpson yes
19:42what are you doing
19:43now are you reaching for
19:46something
19:48stop
19:51st back up a little it looks like I'm
19:54putting my hand in my pocket I would
19:56assume at that point well I don't
19:58actually know at that point what I was
19:59doing I may have been removing my keys I
20:01don't know that for a fact Let it play
20:41stop now the there's another officer
20:43there in the photograph is that right or
20:45the video rather yes and who is that
20:53person I believe that's detective Brad
20:55Roberts okay let it play a little little
20:58more until you see Robert's
21:06face that detective keep watching it yes
21:09that's detective Roberts okay let it
21:22play Let's Stop Now is detective Roberts
21:26holding something
21:29it looks like it yes okay do you know
21:31what what that is that he's holding
21:34detective it looks like a notebook I I
21:36don't know for sure okay that looks like
21:39a notebook to you
21:47Detective from that angle from this
21:49picture it's very very hard to tell what
21:51he's holding don't take your eyes off
21:53that video screen until I say so
21:54detective van
22:07appears we just ran the tape backwards a
22:22little still look like a notebook in his
22:24left hand
22:25detector no sir that looks like the
22:27travel bag that Mr Mr Simpson returned
22:29to the location with okay was that bag
22:31seized by your detectives by myself yes
22:36okay continue
22:40please now someone else has joined you
22:42here is that right yes and who was that
22:44person would appear that it's attorney
22:47Howard whitesman
22:52okay now at this point is Mr Simpson
22:55still handcuffed no you remove the
22:57handcuffs
23:12yes is Mr Simpson under arrest at this
23:15point that is as you walk down the
23:16driveway no is he free to
23:19leave yeah he could
23:24have is that officer Thompson there the
23:27the African-American officer
23:34yes okay did you place Mr Simpson inside
23:37your vehicle
23:41no
23:56stop we've heard Mr cochan refer to a
24:00term uh rush to judgment
24:02detective yes I've heard
24:07that did you rush to judgment in this
24:10case
24:21no did you attend the autopsy on June 14
24:241994 yes bless you
24:29those would be the autopsies for Ron
24:30Goldman and Nicole Brown yes and during
24:33the autopsy were uh blood samples taken
24:37from both victims yes whole blood
24:40samples yes and were you present during
24:44that process
24:47yes and who took those whole blood
24:49samples Dr
24:52Golden the deputy coroner that's correct
24:55okay and what did he do with the samples
24:57after he took them if you
25:00know I know the procedure he took
25:03control of them and uh transferred them
25:05to the corers lab okay now at some point
25:08did you pick up those whole blood
25:09samples
25:15yes will these be items or evidence
25:18items 59 and
25:2160 I would have to look at the property
25:23report to confirm that
25:50please your property reports yes sir
26:13guess that would be it 59 and 60 of the
26:16property report that's
26:23correct and on June 15 the day following
26:25the all time see you picked those two
26:27items up from the uh Coroner's lab yes
26:31okay where did you take those two items
26:33I hand carried them to scientific
26:35investigation division
26:37uh corology Department okay and did you
26:41Calla them to be booked there at the uh
26:44LAPD crime lab I did
26:52yes you testified earlier detective that
26:55on the morning of June 13 that it took
26:57you approximately six minutes to drive
26:59from Bundy to rocking
27:01Hill I think I testified approximately 5
27:06minutes and since that date since June
27:0913
27:111994 have you been part of any
27:15uh attempt to uh ascertain how long it
27:19would take to drive from
27:21Bundy to rocking Hill yes
27:26okay you're on we have a
27:51video it is not on video it's on laser
27:58depicts uh detective vanad driving from
28:00Rockingham to Bundy and Bundy uh back to
28:03Rockingham it is a timed
28:06uh a drive may it be marked people's 120
28:11125 all
28:15right and before we show this uh
28:17detective on what date was this
28:20uh produced if you know what day did you
28:23drive from Rockingham to Bundy and Bundy
28:25back to Rockingham for purposes of this
28:27laser
28:28demonstration the evening of September
28:3125th
28:361994 uh Mr D Mrs Robertson was just
28:39reminding me that we previously marked
28:41the segment that is Rockingham to Bundy
28:43is 118 and Bundy to Rockingham is
28:49119 this would be then
28:55119 all right rece
29:27for for
30:2610 p.m.
30:42I'm detective an Adder Robbery Homicide
30:44it's uh Sunday evening uh 1 p.m.
30:49September the 25th 1994 where at the
30:53Ashford gate just east of the Ashford
30:55gate at 360 North Rockingham
31:00okay Ron go
31:06ahead we're proceeding East on
31:09[Music]
31:12Ashford approaching
31:26[Music]
31:41turning right South on Cliffwood from
31:44Ashford
32:27CLI approaching the signal at Sunset
32:29Boulevard to go
32:31left
32:56East for
33:29turning left East on the sunet
34:26turning right
34:30s
34:48k which turns into bunny
35:12we're approaching the intersection of
35:13Bundy and San
35:15VI we're going to turn left East and
35:20then a quick right turn South back on
35:22bunday
35:41we approaching the intersection of Bundy
35:43and Montana
36:10continuing South across Montana on Bundy
36:23Drive passing the intersection of Gam
36:37passing the location of 875 now turning
36:41right on Dy Avenue
36:46West right North in the alley to the
36:50rear of 875
36:58and stopping now right at the rear of
37:05875 now
37:09detective in producing this video did
37:11you honor the uh the traffic laws yes I
37:14did you honor the speed limit yes sir
37:17what was your approximate speed never
37:19over 35 miles an
37:22hour I noticed in the video that you
37:25stopped on a couple of occasions is that
37:27right yeah yes why did you stop for
37:29traffic
37:34lines and at the end of the video I
37:37heard you state that that you were that
37:38you were in the Northbound alley behind
37:40875 South Bundy yes sir okay and you're
37:44facing north yes was that the only alley
37:46that you drove through uh during this
37:48initial
37:50Drive yes
37:52okay have you attempted
37:55to drive from Rockingham to Bundy at a
37:58speed higher than 35
38:01mph no I have not have you attempted to
38:05time the drive from Rockingham to Bundy
38:07under circumstances where you where you
38:09haven't had to stop for stop Lines no
38:14sir now are you suggesting to
38:17us that this is the only route from
38:19Bundy to Rockingham or from Rockingham
38:21to Bundy rather no that's one of several
38:25okay do you know
38:29EXA defend took that
38:38night we play the second half of the
38:42video
38:47119 118 the return trip to Rockingham
39:01I'm detective vaner again it's 10:15
39:04p.m. uh September 25th
39:071994 at the rear of 875 South Bundy
39:11starting North in the alley to the rear
39:14okay go ahead Ron
39:41we're approaching Montana Avenue where
39:43we will turn right
39:50East and approaching the intersection of
39:53Bundy where we will turn left North
40:03we are now headed north on Bundy
40:04[Music]
40:13Drive approaching the intersection of
40:15San
40:17vien we will turn left West
40:43traveling west on sanin and making a
40:45turn right North on Bundy dve
40:54[Music]
41:06yes
41:39approaching the intersection of Sunset
41:41Boulevard where we will turn left West
42:11I'm proceeding West on Sunset
42:26Boulevard for
43:03approaching the intersection of Bristol
43:06turn right North
43:28approaching the intersection
43:32of Highwood Street we're turning right
43:36excuse me left
43:55rest approaching the intersection of
43:58Rockingham Avenue turning right North
44:28we are arriving at
44:31the Rockingham gate at 360 North
44:35Rockingham and stopping at the
44:50curb so detective in the uh video here
44:53it took you 5 minutes and 22 seconds to
44:55drive from Bundy to Rockingham
44:57yes that was the timing of it okay but
45:00it took you five minutes and uh 55
45:02seconds to drive from Rockingham to to
45:04Bundy is that right yes
45:07thereabouts there's a variation in the
45:10times is that right I would say so
45:17yes if you know detective are there
45:19shorter routes or other routes that
45:21could have been taken from Bundy to
45:23Rockingham well there's several other
45:25ways that it could have been driven yes
45:27okay and the route that you drove here
45:29in the video
45:31what were you attempting to give us the
45:33shortest time possible no I was just
45:36attempting to drive to the location to
45:39find out how long it took between the
45:41two uh addresses okay there are side
45:44streets that you could have taken
45:47yes in the map that we that we see here
45:50in the
45:51video does that map uh include
45:55Alleyways that are that are in the area
45:58area it doesn't appear to no are there
46:01alleys and Alleyways in that
46:07area well I'm sure there are I don't
46:10specifically recall them but I'm sure
46:11there are some alleys there
46:21yes thank you that's all I have your Mr
46:24Shir
46:34ladies and gentlemen of the jury good
46:36afternoon detective good morning Mr
46:38Shapiro oh still morning I thought we
46:41were going to start this afternoon
46:44thanks as an experienced detective uh
46:48you know that when
46:50you see something you want to make sure
46:53that you're correct in your evaluation
46:55don't you
46:57I would say that's a fair statement yes
47:00and you don't want to uh jump to any
47:02immediate conclusions do
47:05you no and you want to follow up uh on
47:09your initial Impressions to make sure
47:11they're correct In fairness do you not
47:15yes and in the case of observing the
47:18finger of Mr
47:20Simpson on uh June the
47:2413th you concluded that there was a
47:28laceration uh in the middle knuckle of
47:31the left hand finger as well as a
47:33smaller
47:34laceration and that uh that laceration
47:38had caused some
47:39swelling is that correct
47:42yes and I take it uh that you would then
47:46want to later examine Mr Simpson's
47:50finger to see uh what the normal
47:53condition of his hand was would you not
47:59I'm I'm not sure I understand that
48:02uh I'm not sure I understand your
48:05question well examine the same finger
48:08later or
48:14yes well I don't think it would be the
48:17same because I think the injury would be
48:19healed at a later dat right so you'd
48:20want to look at it and see if the
48:22swelling had gone down and returned to
48:23what you believed would be his normal
48:25condition correct I never did that would
48:29you like to do
48:31that I don't think I need
48:34to what if his finger
48:38uh was always swollen due to uh a
48:41medical condition and not due to any
48:43laceration would that concern
48:49you I guess that could be a possibility
48:52however it appeared to be swollen from
48:54the laceration that morning but why
48:56don't you take look at it with the
48:57Court's permission and uh tell us if you
48:59see any difference between the joint on
49:02the finger on the 13th when you first
49:05observed it and today would you mind
49:06doing that for us all right do you want
49:09the witness to step around yes please
49:11all right Detective
49:43your honor before I proceed with further
49:45questions May uh Mr Simpson show his
49:48finger to the jury before we do further
49:51examination thank you Mr
49:55Simpson for
50:55I believe they can see they're indicate
50:56they're not
51:05inly with
51:07court
51:25without e
51:57detective van Adder uh would you
52:00describe the finger of Mr Simpson today
52:03as being
52:04swollen it didn't appear swollen to me
52:11no I take it when um you observed his
52:16finger that you called for a medical
52:20person to come to determine whether or
52:23not there was any glass in that finger
52:29I had his finger examined yes was it by
52:32a doctor no it was by a register nurse
52:35was it by a pathologist no sir do you
52:37know the qualifications of the nurse to
52:39determine uh the cause of an injury a
52:42traumatic injury no sir did you inquire
52:46no sir do you think that might be
52:49important it appeared he had an injury
52:51on his left hand well you had
52:53information that he had injured himself
52:55with a piece of cut class did you not
52:57objection sustain assumes facts not in
53:01did you have information that he had cut
53:02himself with a piece of cut
53:05class
53:06sustain did you have information from uh
53:10police departments in
53:14Chicago
53:15call did he have information from no
53:18over that question he can answer and did
53:21that information include a thorough
53:23search of the room Mr Simpson was in
53:25before he had left left
53:28rection right in that territory now
53:34state did you have any uh reference
53:37whatsoever about uh the cause of the
53:41injury at the time you were examining Mr
53:44Simpson over yes or
53:47no I could you ask that again please did
53:50I have any reference yes I had
53:54information yes
53:56and did that information cause you to
53:58consider that the injury may have been
54:00caused by being cut with a piece of
54:13glass at no time did you make any
54:16determination with any
54:19scientific expert to determine whether
54:22there was any glass in that wound did
54:23you no sir
54:28since the time that uh you've become a
54:31police officer 26 years ago I would
54:34imagine that there have been drastic
54:36changes in
54:38uh scientific evidence in criminal
54:43cases yeah there's been changes yes
54:45would you describe them as
54:52drastic probably yes I mean you've gone
54:55from a time of using 3x5 cards to
54:58computers isn't that correct
55:03yes and uh your education took place at
55:07the Academy more than 25 years
55:10ago your initial education is that
55:12correct my initial education yes and
55:16then you got further education uh by
55:19something called homicide school that's
55:21correct when was
55:24that probably 20 years ago and I would
55:28take it that things that
55:31uh you learned in homicide school today
55:35may be very very out in homicide school
55:3820 years ago are are in fact out of date
55:42today some of the things yes and there
55:45have been things that have been changed
55:47uh since homicide school that you never
55:49even considered uh at that
55:54time been advanced ments that were never
55:57discussed in homicide school 20 years
55:58ago that are routine procedures today
56:01that's correct yes and did you take
56:03continued education courses to keep up
56:05with a change in Scientific
56:08Technology well I think that's a
56:10continuing education on a daily basis
56:12with the police department did you
56:14understand my question sir yes I did
56:17could you answer it please continuing
56:19education courses
56:22no have you uh taught any in the area of
56:27police science or police investigation
56:28or investigation
56:31techniques where anywhere at the police
56:35academy occasionally and at training
56:37days yes and when was the last time you
56:40taught at the police academy and what
56:41subject did you
56:47teach
56:52probably 10 years ago and it was officer
56:55involved shooting
56:58and prior to that when did you uh teach
57:00before that at the police academy what
57:02subject did you teach well I I used to
57:05teach
57:08uh quarterly officer involved shooting
57:11at the police academy and at training
57:14days for different divisions have you
57:16taught any other subject no have you
57:19read uh any books on crime scene
57:24investigation in the last 10 years
57:26no have you read any manuals on crime
57:29scene investigation in the last 10
57:34years recently
57:37yes prior to uh your testimony in this
57:42case recently yes when have you read
57:45well I just read the homicide manual
57:47within the last 6 months that's from the
57:49LAPD that's correct any Publications by
57:53other experts in the field no you've
57:56read no sir have you attended any
57:58seminars given by uh any experts in
58:01crime scene
58:06investigation at at any time sir in the
58:09last 10 years yes what have you read
58:12what have you what seminars have you
58:13been to California homicide
58:15investigators association when was that
58:19I've attended probably three or four
58:20times in the last 10 years maybe as many
58:22as five times when was the last time you
58:24attended
58:29three years ago maybe where was that
58:32Ventura and what was the subject
58:34matter uh there was there was a number
58:37of classes given
58:39uh case preparation uh there was a
58:42homicide case presented as I
58:46recall could it involve scientific
58:51evidence I don't recall if there was a
58:53class in that or not
58:57would you say that uh you are one of the
59:02old school type of
59:06detectives I don't think I know what old
59:08school means
59:12sir what uh training and experience what
59:15training have you had formally with DNA
59:19preservation of evidence
59:26well I presented a previous homicide
59:28case with DNA evidence if that if that's
59:32what you're asking do you recall the
59:34question I asked you yeah what formal
59:37training I've had can you answer that
59:39question yes also was also experience
59:41cancel training and experience what
59:44training have you had let's just limit
59:46it to training formal training regarding
59:48DNA no formal TR well that's not true we
59:52have quarterly homicide meetings in the
59:54city we have have uh roll call training
59:57where DNA evidence has been discussed
1:00:00many
1:00:01times are you familiar with the proper
1:00:04techniques of the collection of DNA
1:00:08evidence no I'm not a criminalist and
1:00:10I'm not an expert in uh and that
1:00:14no are you familiar with how DNA
1:00:18evidence can become
1:00:24contaminated oh
1:00:27well I think I'm familiar with the way
1:00:29any kind of evidence could be
1:00:32contaminated is there greater
1:00:34susceptibility for contamination of
1:00:37potential DNA evidence than other types
1:00:40of
1:00:45evidence what's the
1:00:49basis Witness
1:00:57is there more of a susceptibility for
1:00:59DNA type evidence to be contaminated
1:01:02yes why think I think there would be a
1:01:05lot of variables in that I think it
1:01:07would it would depend on where the DNA
1:01:09evidence is
1:01:12um the circumstances that it's found uh
1:01:16and so on and so forth uh that
1:01:19possibility I think would exist with any
1:01:21evidence it could be
1:01:23contaminated how can DNA evidence become
1:01:27contaminated we beyond the scope of the
1:01:29direct examination at this point this
1:01:31witness did not testify to the actual
1:01:35collection he is a homicide investigator
1:01:37he is the lead investigator so there's
1:01:39some par than take up jury time if we
1:01:43may approach the bench at the break then
1:01:45and I'll go into some some other
1:01:46questions thank you very much your honor
1:01:49are you familiar with uh the way to
1:01:51preserve evidence in a criminal case
1:01:58just name to preserve blood evidence in
1:02:01a criminal case yes and are you familiar
1:02:04with the techniques to preserve DNA
1:02:07blood evidence in a criminal
1:02:12case I think preserving blood evidence
1:02:15would go to DNA or any kind of testing
1:02:18that would that would be applicable to
1:02:21that you see no distinction between the
1:02:25preservation of evidence for standard
1:02:27blood testing or for DNA testing is that
1:02:31correct no distinction between the two
1:02:35yes I I DNA testing is a continuation of
1:02:39standard blood testing it has to be
1:02:42protected to ensure the
1:02:44non-contamination of the evidence are
1:02:47you uh familiar with the term
1:02:49cross-contamination yes I know what that
1:02:51means what is cross-contamination of
1:02:53blood evidence and how does it occur
1:02:55cross contamination would be if you take
1:02:58two pieces of evidence and mix them up
1:03:00and you get a mixing of the evidence
1:03:02together do you also could
1:03:05cross-contamination take place by
1:03:06bringing evidence from one location to
1:03:09another
1:03:11location
1:03:13sustain are you fam are you aware that
1:03:16cross-contamination can take place by
1:03:18bringing contaminated evidence from one
1:03:21location to another location sustain
1:03:31in your uh role as the lead investigator
1:03:36of this
1:03:37case are you the one who is ultimately
1:03:41responsible for all aspects of this
1:03:44investigation myself and my partner
1:03:49yes and everybody who does something
1:03:52regarding investigation Works under you
1:03:54or under your direction
1:03:59I would say that's a fair statement yes
1:04:02and the people that you want working
1:04:04under you or at your direction are
1:04:06people that you know are capable of
1:04:09doing the job correctly isn't that
1:04:14correct people that are sent to the
1:04:17crime scene I have no control over uh I
1:04:20would assume people that are requested
1:04:22and sent there are trained Personnel yes
1:04:25and after you take over do you have the
1:04:27ability to request your own backup group
1:04:32of people to help in your
1:04:35investigation backup group for what
1:04:37purpose I do you do you do all the
1:04:39investigation yourself or do you have
1:04:40people help you no I have people help me
1:04:43do you have any input in who those
1:04:44people are going to
1:04:46be sometimes not all times and in a case
1:04:50that involves something that's
1:04:51high-profile you want to make sure that
1:04:55the best investigation possible can be
1:04:57done isn't that correct I try to do that
1:05:00in all
1:05:01cases but uh in a case where there's
1:05:04going to be the media paying a lot of
1:05:07attention to you you have additional
1:05:09concerns do you
1:05:13not
1:05:16I I would say yes but to qualify that
1:05:20yes answer I have the same concerns with
1:05:23every case I handle that it's done
1:05:25properly I I appreciate that and I know
1:05:28that uh you want to be as professional
1:05:30as possible always when I'm just uh
1:05:34asking of you detective is when there is
1:05:37a case that has such intense
1:05:42media
1:05:44interest isn't there a desire on your
1:05:48part to make sure that the absolute
1:05:52ultimate best that can be done will be
1:05:54done yes
1:05:57and in that regard the team that you put
1:06:00together that are going to Aid you are
1:06:03people that you would want to have faith
1:06:05and trust
1:06:07in what's the
1:06:14basis I I would I would hope that they
1:06:17would be qualified Personnel yes so and
1:06:20it was no secret this was a high-profile
1:06:22case when you got the call was it
1:06:25turned out to be very high-profile yes
1:06:28but you knew immediately that it
1:06:30was I didn't think it would reach the
1:06:32parameters that it is reached but yes I
1:06:34knew it was going to be high-profile and
1:06:36you knew it was going to be Beyond most
1:06:37of the cases you ever handled in your
1:06:39career didn't you
1:06:42immediately that's very subjective when
1:06:44you say beyond the only thing that makes
1:06:46this different again is the amount of
1:06:49media coverage that's what I'm saying
1:06:51from a media perspective you knew
1:06:53instantly when you got that phone call
1:06:56that this case was going to have more
1:06:57scrutiny than any other case you've been
1:06:59involved in in your 26 years as a
1:07:02detective isn't that
1:07:05correct no I didn't know that
1:07:07immediately I knew it later in the day
1:07:12yes when uh would you with uh those
1:07:17thoughts in
1:07:18mind to do the absolute best job
1:07:22possible
1:07:24uh feel secure in having a trainee
1:07:29criminalist involved in this
1:07:32case 32
1:07:37objection I have no control over whose
1:07:39scientific investigation rols to crime
1:07:42scenes do you have any way of uh
1:07:45contacting the head of the crime lab and
1:07:46saying hey look uh we've got a real real
1:07:50delicate situation here uh the commander
1:07:54has even involved himself in this case
1:07:58to the degree of making personal
1:08:01notifications uh can you send out your
1:08:03top people would you be able to do
1:08:07that I could probably make that request
1:08:10but again I I don't have any control
1:08:12over who they send out I understand that
1:08:14but you do have the ability to make that
1:08:16request I oh yeah I could I could make
1:08:19any kind of a request whether it's
1:08:20followed or not is another story and you
1:08:23have in the past uh requested certain
1:08:25people who you know are the tops in
1:08:27their field have you not to crime scenes
1:08:30in any part of your investigations as
1:08:32this case was going on you you continue
1:08:34to do that don't
1:08:37you I no I wouldn't say that I've made
1:08:40individual requests of people no did you
1:08:43ask for the best people I wouldn't say
1:08:45I've done that I make requests through
1:08:48normal channels now you're aware that uh
1:08:51detective Phillips called down to the
1:08:53coroner and said we're not going to
1:08:54follow procedure procedure on this one
1:08:56did weren't you you're aware of that
1:08:59yeah I saw his testimony
1:09:01yes and that meant that there was going
1:09:03to be something different done didn't
1:09:07it I don't understand that something
1:09:09different what sir could it also um
1:09:12being requested of the coroner to send
1:09:15out uh the best corers investigators to
1:09:18the scene could you make that
1:09:21request certainly I could make that
1:09:23request I don't know how far it would go
1:09:25though do you have a good relationship
1:09:26with the corners yes do you work with
1:09:28them all the time yes do you know the
1:09:30coroner of Los Angeles yes what's his
1:09:33name Dr lakshmanan and if you called Dr
1:09:36lakshmanan and told him the situation
1:09:39you had and told him there was a
1:09:40particular uh forensic pathologist that
1:09:43you'd work with in the past and that you
1:09:45work with well together and uh you'd
1:09:48like him to be a signed uh would that be
1:09:50something he might be receptive
1:09:53to I doubt that very
1:09:57seriously I don't think he would honor
1:09:59my request no he wouldn't cooperate with
1:10:01you at all well I think I think their
1:10:02schedules are Set uh it's been my
1:10:06experience that there's uh the
1:10:08pathologist schedules are
1:10:10set and
1:10:16uh I don't think that's ever happened uh
1:10:18in in my attending autopsies who is the
1:10:22uh head of the crime
1:10:24lab at at the Corner's office no
1:10:26LAPD uh Michelle Kessler now do you know
1:10:29her yes I know her how long have you
1:10:31known
1:10:33her probably 10 years when you talk to
1:10:36her how do you refer to her Michelle and
1:10:39if you called Michelle and said I'd like
1:10:42uh your best criminalist out here we
1:10:44have a uh very uh difficult situation on
1:10:48our hands do you think she would honor
1:10:50that
1:10:52request she probably would yes
1:10:57are you aware that a trainee was sent
1:10:59out to the crime scene yes with no
1:11:03previous homicide
1:11:05experience well I found that out later I
1:11:08don't know whether that's a true
1:11:10statement I believe she had been on two
1:11:12or three scenes prior to that is that
1:11:15the type of person you'd like collecting
1:11:16your evidence under your
1:11:19direction that was the person that was
1:11:20sent is that the person you would like
1:11:23to have collecting your evidence a case
1:11:25like this what rule on that
1:11:29ground I think the person that was in
1:11:31charge of that was criminalist fun do
1:11:33you understand my question sir is that
1:11:35the person I would like
1:11:38yes
1:11:40oh I really have no control over that of
1:11:43course I would like to have the most
1:11:44qualified person do everything for me
1:11:46but that's not the Practical world do
1:11:49you view a trainee as the most qualified
1:11:51person no do you view a trainee as being
1:11:53qualified at all to do anything on a
1:11:55crane scene that's how they become
1:11:58qualified by doing it under more
1:12:01experienced people and is this a was
1:12:03this a good case for people to learn
1:12:14from in um conicting in conducting this
1:12:19investigation uh you've had access to
1:12:22many other law enforcement agencies have
1:12:24you not
1:12:31have you dealt have you dealt with other
1:12:33law enforcement agencies to Aid you in
1:12:35the investigation of the
1:12:37homicides
1:12:40yes have you dealt dealt with
1:12:43interpole no has interpole participated
1:12:47at all in this
1:12:49case not to my knowledge you haven't
1:12:51seen any reports generated from Interpol
1:12:54I have not you're the lead detective one
1:12:57of the lead detectives and and all of
1:12:58the reports that come into this case
1:13:00come through you no that's not
1:13:04true I would take it you'd want to see
1:13:06the reports that come in this case from
1:13:07other uh police agencies would you not
1:13:10yes and have you done that I've seen
1:13:14everything that's come to our office yes
1:13:16and so to your knowledge nothing has
1:13:17come in from interpole I don't recall
1:13:20anything from interpole has any
1:13:22investigation taken place uh in Europe
1:13:24on on this
1:13:37case
1:13:39yes has any uh investigation in this T
1:13:42in this case taking place in
1:13:49Canada I'm not aware of Canada has any
1:13:52investigation in this T in this case
1:13:54taken place in
1:14:01Florida yes has any investigation in
1:14:04this case taken place in New York yes
1:14:07has any investigation in this case taken
1:14:11place in uh
1:14:23Arizona I believe so yes what other
1:14:26states have uh been involved in the
1:14:28investigation of this case to your
1:14:31knowledge
1:14:40Connecticut that's the only other state
1:14:42that comes to mind at this point have
1:14:44you been out of state personally to
1:14:45investigate any aspects of this
1:14:47case yes Where Have You Been Connecticut
1:14:52and Washington DC
1:14:55and in Washington DC you met with the
1:14:57Federal Bureau of Investigation
1:14:59yes and is that the first time you've
1:15:03called upon them for help in a homicide
1:15:05investigation no how many other
1:15:07occasions have you used the Federal
1:15:08Bureau of
1:15:12Investigation many times probably
1:15:15probably or many times how many
1:15:19times I couldn't tell you over the 26
1:15:23years of I've worked with them on many
1:15:25many cases not that when you work with
1:15:27them that you as a lead detective have
1:15:29contacted the FBI to Aid in your
1:15:31investigation directly Aid in the
1:15:39investigation I I I'm not sure I
1:15:42understand directly Aid in my
1:15:44investigation yes anytime I contact him
1:15:46with a request for assistance that's
1:15:48direct Aid so I've done it many many
1:15:51times how many times have you gone to
1:15:52Washington to meet with the FBI in the
1:15:54past
1:15:57this was the first time I
1:15:59believe all right Mr Shapiro we need to
1:16:01change court reporters at this point all
1:16:04right ladies and gentlemen we're going
1:16:05to take a brief morning recess please
1:16:07remember my admonitions to you don't
1:16:08discuss the case amongst yourselves
1:16:10don't form any opinions about the case
1:16:11do not allow anybody to converse with
1:16:13you regarding the case do not conduct
1:16:15any deliberation so the matter has been
1:16:17submitted to you we'll be in recess for
1:16:2015 minutes and detective van Adder you
1:16:21may step down come back in 15 minutes
1:16:23please all right we'll be in Rec says
1:16:25for
1:16:2615 you were uh telling us that uh you
1:16:29were in Connecticut yes and in
1:16:31Washington DC have you been outside the
1:16:33United States on this case no
1:16:37sir have any uh members of the Los
1:16:41Angeles Police Department been outside
1:16:42the United States in this
1:16:48case I believe they were outside the
1:16:51United States on a companion case not
1:16:53this case
1:16:55have uh any members of the Los Angeles
1:16:57Police Department been to any other
1:16:59states than the states that you have
1:17:09mentioned yes there was one other state
1:17:11that I that slipped my mind Iowa I was
1:17:14in Iowa you were in Iowa yes sir and uh
1:17:18what about uh other members of the
1:17:20police department have they been to any
1:17:21other states that we haven't mentioned
1:17:26none come to mine right
1:17:28now uh anybody from your department
1:17:31visit Chicago Illinois yes I don't know
1:17:35if we mentioned that or not uh did you
1:17:37did not no sir I did not people went at
1:17:39your direction
1:17:41yes and how many uh other law
1:17:44enforcement agencies have you uh worked
1:17:49with in the course of this
1:17:53investigation just tell us what which
1:17:54ones they are rather than give us a
1:17:56number
1:17:57please Fairfield
1:18:00Connecticut uh Fairfield
1:18:03Iowa the
1:18:07FBI when you say Fairfield Connecticut
1:18:09that's the Police Department police
1:18:11department yes Police Department in both
1:18:14cities uh the Federal Bureau of
1:18:21Investigation a lot of Orange County
1:18:23agencies on the
1:18:2717th
1:18:32uh Department of
1:18:35Justice Department of Justice for the
1:18:38United States or for the State of
1:18:40California United States and the state
1:18:42of
1:18:44California and I I I just can't call to
1:18:49mind anymore at this point Chicago
1:18:51Police Department yes Florida Police
1:18:53Department
1:18:58I don't know if that was on this case or
1:18:59the companion case that they worked with
1:19:01the Department de but related to at
1:19:03least related to this related to some
1:19:06aspects of this case excuse me gentlemen
1:19:08thank you honor both Old Pros you're
1:19:10driving the court report NS let him
1:19:11finish the question let him finish the
1:19:13answer I apologize
1:19:18[Laughter]
1:19:34proceed in addition to uh dealing with
1:19:37uh well uh what did you do with the
1:19:39Department of Justice for the United
1:19:41States what role do they play in this
1:19:45case they helped me and my partner in a
1:19:49polygraph examination that we did of
1:19:51whom objection sustain
1:19:59and when you went to Connecticut was one
1:20:02of the purposes there to interview uh
1:20:05one of Mr Simpson's Witnesses uh Mr
1:20:08Fishman Dr
1:20:11Fishman I I I don't quite understand
1:20:14that to interview Dr Fishman yes no sir
1:20:17was he interviewed in
1:20:18Connecticut not to my knowledge
1:20:24have uh you or people at your direction
1:20:28interviewed Witnesses for Mr OJ
1:20:33Simpson
1:20:34sustain interviewed people who are on
1:20:36the strike
1:20:39that what Laboratories uh have been
1:20:44engaged to
1:20:46analyze potential evidence in this
1:20:50case Sark Laboratories where is that in
1:20:54Maryland that's a private laboratory
1:20:57yes uh the FBI Federal Bureau of
1:21:00Investigation where Washington
1:21:04DC and the California Department of
1:21:08Justice what about the Los Angel Los
1:21:10Angeles Police Department has also
1:21:11analyzed evidence
1:21:13yes are there also other Laboratories
1:21:17that have been consulted regarding this
1:21:19case and evidence in this
1:21:23case not that I'm aware of
1:21:26no and how many uh other cases have you
1:21:30engaged three outside Laboratories uh to
1:21:34Aid in analysis of
1:21:36evidence you
1:21:44personally I haven't personally done any
1:21:47in how many other cases have you
1:21:48personally engaged the Department of
1:21:50Justice of the United States to Aid in
1:21:53your investigation
1:21:58probably probably quite a few probably
1:22:01or certain well over the over the years
1:22:04I have worked with federal agencies a
1:22:06lot on cases uh I couldn't give you an
1:22:09exact number my question is particularly
1:22:12the Department of Justice on how many
1:22:14occasions have you personally cont you
1:22:17personally contacted them for an
1:22:19investigation you were the lead
1:22:20investigator
1:22:22on well I didn't personally contact him
1:22:25this time would you say that's a rare
1:22:34occurrence no I would not say it's a
1:22:36rare occurrence I worked with a lot of a
1:22:39lot of agencies over the years how many
1:22:43police officers from the Los Angeles
1:22:45Police Department have been engaged at
1:22:48one time or another in some aspect of
1:22:50this case
1:22:57uniform or detective across the board
1:23:00uniform
1:23:01detective and uh administrative do you
1:23:04want to include all the officers on our
1:23:06jury tour I'm sorry do you want to
1:23:09include all the officers on our jury
1:23:11tour no your honor all right no
1:23:14excluding the officers on the jury
1:23:17tour those are the ones that Court
1:23:18engaged I
1:23:20believe a little of this a little of
1:23:22that
1:23:25you know with all the collateral issues
1:23:27that's going on with this case as far as
1:23:29traffic control and things like that I
1:23:31would have no idea I don't know I I
1:23:34honestly don't know give us a general
1:23:37estimation of how many officers have
1:23:40been involved in this case to your
1:23:41knowledge you've got all your records
1:23:43here you could check it if you wanted to
1:23:44I take
1:23:47it I think he's described
1:23:49it you know what I'm talking about don't
1:23:52you that participated in the
1:23:53investigation oh I I would say that got
1:23:56you to the point you are in court here
1:23:59probably probably 15 to 20 15 to 20 yeah
1:24:04and how many officers were engaged in
1:24:06the search of the brenwood area looking
1:24:08for
1:24:10uh either gross evidence or trace
1:24:15evidence when anytime during this case
1:24:18from uh June 13th to uh 10:00 this
1:24:22morning
1:24:25how many officers were involved in the
1:24:27search of the Brentwood
1:24:31area well we had a group of recruit
1:24:37officers do a walk from Bundy to
1:24:39Rockingham I believe there were probably
1:24:4130 officers maybe recruit officers well
1:24:43that's on top of the 20 that you just
1:24:46mentioned well these people are not
1:24:48involved in all stages these are no no I
1:24:51no let me let me make my question clear
1:24:53later let him finish his answer I'm
1:24:56sorry I apologize to you sir that's
1:24:59that's quite all right Mr Shapiro
1:25:00there's a lot of collateral issues
1:25:02that's happened where we've used
1:25:04officers from other divisions or
1:25:07requested help at different times and
1:25:10they would be involved for one aspect
1:25:11and that would end the their involvement
1:25:14in it that's my question involveed for
1:25:19any aspect whatsoever from June 13th
1:25:221994
1:25:25to this morning how many members of the
1:25:28Los Angeles Police Department have been
1:25:31involved in any
1:25:33aspect of this case I think I answered
1:25:37that before I don't know can you give us
1:25:39an estimate I couldn't even give you a
1:25:41good estimate I don't know would it
1:25:44exceed
1:25:51100 that's possible that's possible I
1:25:55don't know would you say in your career
1:25:58this is one of the most thoroughly
1:26:01investigated cases that has ever been
1:26:03done by the Los Angeles Police
1:26:14Department no I wouldn't say that I
1:26:17would say it ranks up there with a lot
1:26:19of cases a lot of cases have been
1:26:21thoroughly investigated is there
1:26:22anything that you wanted done in this
1:26:24case that hasn't been done because of
1:26:26lack of resources or
1:26:28Manpower
1:26:31no is there any agency in the United
1:26:34States that you would like assistance
1:26:35for in this case that has refused to
1:26:38give you
1:26:39assistance not to my knowledge is there
1:26:41any agency in the world that you would
1:26:43seek assistance from who hasn't given
1:26:45you assistance not to my knowledge have
1:26:48you conducted the most thorough search
1:26:51that you could as a professional to look
1:26:54for the murder weapon in this case yes
1:26:58have you found it no I have not have you
1:27:01found any weapons that
1:27:04are consistent with the injuries on
1:27:08either Nicole Simpson or Ronald Goldman
1:27:12no I have not have you found any knives
1:27:17in the area of the Rockingham address
1:27:24yes with the cour board
1:28:01thank you Council for see are you're
1:28:03aware that a knife was recovered near
1:28:05the Rockingham address are you not yes
1:28:08and that knife had blood on
1:28:10it that's what I was told you and that
1:28:12blood came back a type B
1:28:17blood sustain do you know if that blood
1:28:21came
1:28:22back as the blood blood type of an
1:28:25individual who is not a person who's a
1:28:29defendant in this case
1:28:31sustain it's your
1:28:35say yes how many Knives have you booked
1:28:38into
1:28:39evidence in this
1:28:42case there's been quite a few booked how
1:28:45many I don't know exactly maybe five or
1:28:48six isn't that an important thing to
1:28:50know how many knives are booked in this
1:28:51case well sir there's been over I think
1:28:54around 450 items of evidence booked and
1:28:57it's hard to keep keep up with all of I
1:28:59bet it is but you keep lists for that
1:29:01don't you yes sir we do and you reviewed
1:29:04your records before you came here to
1:29:05testify didn't you I've looked through
1:29:08them yes you just look through
1:29:09them that's all for this testimony you
1:29:12just perused your uh Records before you
1:29:15got on the witness stand to testify
1:29:18that's
1:29:19correct stand do you need some more time
1:29:22to prepare yourself for cross-exam
1:29:25that is sustained I'm just being
1:29:30courteous proceed
1:29:36councel along the lines of
1:29:42uh the uh knife evidence what other
1:29:45efforts were made to uh look what were
1:29:47the efforts that that you
1:29:49have instituted to look for the
1:29:52knife that you believe was was the
1:29:54murder weapon in this
1:29:57case what efforts have I made yeah well
1:30:01a search war was obtained and the Mr
1:30:03Simpsons residence was searched as well
1:30:05as the grounds how many
1:30:08times
1:30:11twice a walkthrough search was done from
1:30:15Bundy to uh Rockingham by several uh
1:30:19recruit officers where we were searching
1:30:21the streets uh
1:30:24Shrubbery uh the storm drains uh so on
1:30:27and so forth would you describe how that
1:30:30effort uh was
1:30:32mounted and what instructions were given
1:30:34to the
1:30:37recruits how it was mounted yes we
1:30:41requested through the Los Angeles Police
1:30:44Academy for
1:30:47uh a number of recruit officers to
1:30:50assist us in doing a walkth through
1:30:52between Bundy
1:30:54and
1:30:56Rockingham we instructed the the recruit
1:30:59officers to look for any blood
1:31:03evidence any clothing that may contain
1:31:06blood any weapons that may contain
1:31:09blood or anything at all that appeared
1:31:12to be out of the ordinary or suspicious
1:31:15are you familiar with the term
1:31:17grid yes what is a grid is a way to map
1:31:22out certain areas to be searched to make
1:31:23make sure you don't miss anything isn't
1:31:25that correct that's correct and that's a
1:31:27very basic uh investigative technique is
1:31:29it not yes sir that's correct and I take
1:31:32it that you sat down with his recruits
1:31:34with a grid so the areas that you were
1:31:37interested in between Bundy and
1:31:39Rockingham could be thoroughly searched
1:31:41is that
1:31:42correct no the way it was done is the
1:31:45the area was set out in
1:31:49blocks we had groups with a detective in
1:31:52charge of each group
1:31:54and well essentially it would be a grid
1:31:56because we did it by blocks we didn't
1:31:58actually grid it but we set it out from
1:32:00a map by blocks and they were
1:32:02searched how many different blocks were
1:32:04searched I I can't tell you exactly do
1:32:07you have a diagram of the blocks that
1:32:09were searched I believe it's contained
1:32:11in the murder book yes uh would you uh
1:32:14would it take you long to locate that
1:32:16diagram if it would we'll wait I don't
1:32:18want it yeah it may because I don't know
1:32:21which book it's in at this point maybe
1:32:23your partner here maybe he can help us
1:32:25okay uh find that so we can go on how
1:32:28many uh detectives were there for each
1:32:35group you know I wasn't there but I
1:32:37believe there was one or possibly two
1:32:40assigned to each group and how many
1:32:41groups were
1:32:42there I can't tell you that right now it
1:32:45was done on two separate times I
1:32:49believe and the purpose was to track the
1:32:52area that you had shown us this nice
1:32:54video of you driving around on remember
1:32:57you just saw that yes that's correct and
1:32:59that's the area that you wanted to
1:33:00search yes that's correct yeah you
1:33:04looked in the storm drains the officers
1:33:07did
1:33:09yes looked under the
1:33:12manholes I don't know whether they did
1:33:13that or not well who instructed them
1:33:16what to look
1:33:18for the information was relayed from us
1:33:21to the detectives that was running the
1:33:23operation did you you're in charge you
1:33:25told us that mhm that's your search
1:33:29correct it's part of the collateral
1:33:31effort that's going on at that time yes
1:33:33your search I mean is that a fair term
1:33:34or not well I was there sir it was part
1:33:37of the collateral effort that was being
1:33:38handled at that time I understand you're
1:33:40not there with your flashlight on your
1:33:41hands and knees but you're directing the
1:33:43search are you not directing an X party
1:33:47yes I guess I guess you could say that
1:33:49yes well you're the one who called it
1:33:50was your idea to do the search wasn't it
1:33:52well it was it was a group idea between
1:33:55our supervisor and myself my partner our
1:33:58captain uh who was discussed and uh yes
1:34:02it was done right so this is a pretty
1:34:04high level
1:34:08decision I what do you mean high
1:34:11level to well let me go on if you don't
1:34:15understand that let's go to something
1:34:17else Mr the gratuitous comments aren't
1:34:21necessary thank you I'm sorry your honor
1:34:25this search as to what you were going to
1:34:28look for did you tell
1:34:31somebody what you wanted to look for yes
1:34:34as I told you before okay and did you
1:34:36tell them where you wanted the people to
1:34:38look for this yes okay where did you
1:34:41tell him you wanted him to look I told
1:34:43him I wanted the possible routes there's
1:34:45more than one possible route walked I
1:34:48wanted the Shrubbery checked I wanted
1:34:50the Lawns checked I wanted the streets
1:34:53checked
1:34:54and I wanted the drains checked what
1:34:57about the gutters and
1:34:59houses no what about rooftops no why not
1:35:03because I don't have the manpower to do
1:35:05something like that over a large area
1:35:07like that did you
1:35:08ask no I didn't
1:35:15ask and this was a foot search that's
1:35:18correct yes
1:35:24and nothing uh relating to what you
1:35:27would consider a murder weapon was found
1:35:29that's correct but weapons were
1:35:37found I don't know that's true you don't
1:35:40know if weapons were found or not no on
1:35:42that search I don't
1:35:45know were any weapons ever brought to
1:35:48your attention uh in that area that
1:35:51contained the blood of someone other
1:35:54than OJ Simpson Nicole Brown or Ronald
1:36:16Goldman were there any written
1:36:18instructions uh given to uh the recruits
1:36:21who were searching
1:36:27I don't know that for sure I wasn't
1:36:28there let me uh approach with an exhibit
1:36:31that has been pulled this appears to be
1:36:35a map of the area
1:36:54is that the area that
1:36:56uh you instructed uh others to
1:37:02search yes it's part of the area yes
1:37:05part of it the area exceeded that no I
1:37:08think the area would be a little smaller
1:37:10than
1:37:11this is there any map that shows what
1:37:13area that you wanted
1:37:15searched this was handed to me by Mr
1:37:20Darden I think I think what happened
1:37:24this would show the area that I wanted
1:37:26searched I think what happened or the
1:37:28way it was done is the
1:37:31detectives after we had asked for this
1:37:33to be done had mapped out the possible
1:37:37Roots between the two
1:37:40locations and had created groups of
1:37:43recruit officers that walked these
1:37:45certain areas and I believe each each
1:37:49group was given a map of the area that
1:37:51they were to search
1:37:53and
1:37:57uh I think that's in one of the books
1:38:00I'm not positive of
1:38:01that now regarding the search for a
1:38:04knife uh you were aware that Mr Simpson
1:38:07uh flew to Chicago yes did you cause
1:38:11that airplane to be
1:38:15searched I believe it was searched yes
1:38:18is there any question in your mind as to
1:38:20whether it was searched or not well I
1:38:22know we had an investigation going on in
1:38:24Chicago uh I know we had detectives back
1:38:27there doing
1:38:28searches and
1:38:31uh there was an airplane storage U
1:38:36facility that was checked because there
1:38:38was a broken knife found in it but as
1:38:40far as the airplane he
1:38:43took I don't know that I believe it was
1:38:45cleaned after it got there anyway so I
1:38:48don't think it was searched you don't
1:38:50think it was searched no I don't think
1:38:52the plane that he flew on was searched
1:38:54would you check did you take make any
1:38:55notes on this no I didn't did you make
1:38:58any notes in this entire case yes sir I
1:39:01did do you have those notes with you
1:39:03they're contained in the books your your
1:39:07personal notes
1:39:10yes and you made notes all along from
1:39:13the 13th
1:39:15on yes what notes did you take on the
1:39:1913th what did you record I wrote a
1:39:21search warant and I started a partial a
1:39:24partial statement of K cin is it search
1:39:26warrant
1:39:27notes uh it yeah you consider those
1:39:30notes okay well it was part of the
1:39:32investigation that I wrote a search war
1:39:34on yeah so that's part of your notes and
1:39:36then you uh had notes on a statement
1:39:39with k o Kalin yes what other notes did
1:39:42you take on the 13th I think the only
1:39:45thing the only other thing I did was a
1:39:47part of the chronological of the case
1:39:49part of the chronological record yes
1:39:51that's about all you the only notes
1:39:53you've taken in this whole case isn't it
1:39:55well I've written a lot of
1:39:57statements I'm talking about notes
1:40:00sir yeah that's
1:40:03correct did you write a report in this
1:40:06case
1:40:08yes how long is
1:40:10it the follow-up report or which which
1:40:13report how many reports did you write in
1:40:15this
1:40:16case well I made the death report I made
1:40:19the crime reports um for both victims
1:40:24I assisted my partner with the follow-up
1:40:27report and I've written several I don't
1:40:30know how many but a lot of statements on
1:40:31this case okay I'd ask you at the newon
1:40:33recess to pull everything you've written
1:40:35and I'll provide us with all your notes
1:40:37if you wouldn't mind
1:40:39objection well we'll take that up
1:40:44later in Chicago uh well you you uh
1:40:47indicated that there was a search of
1:40:49some type of trash that revealed a
1:40:52broken knife no I think it was a holding
1:40:54tank on a airplane that
1:40:57U that was found by Airline
1:41:00employees do you recall reviewing a
1:41:03report that said that there was a
1:41:06container that had all the Refuge for a
1:41:08month from all the planes that were
1:41:12flown by the airlines that transported
1:41:15Mr Simpson of all the Refuge and that
1:41:18was all searched that was a possibility
1:41:21yeah well do you recall that being done
1:41:23I said that was a possibility I I I had
1:41:26detectives back there doing the work wa
1:41:28you read that report didn't you I
1:41:31probably have yes and in that they found
1:41:33a broken piece of a knife I believe
1:41:36that's right yes that was not related to
1:41:38this case correct I don't believe it's
1:41:42related that was a pretty thorough uh
1:41:46way of searching it wasn't it pardon me
1:41:49that was a thorough search wasn't it
1:41:53well it's big did you consider that to
1:41:55be a thorough search of the
1:41:58uh
1:42:01trash sustain what other searches took
1:42:04place in
1:42:09Chicago
1:42:13basis
1:42:17overall there were several searches
1:42:19conducted by uh detective Looper and
1:42:21detective lefal tell us about those
1:42:24I wasn't there I can't tell you about
1:42:25them you've read reports about those and
1:42:28they're part of your investigation
1:42:29aren't they I've read notes on them yes
1:42:31things you reviewed yes okay what uh is
1:42:35your understanding of what took
1:42:38place were those thorough
1:42:41searches sustained calling for
1:42:43speculation he did you direct that there
1:42:45be thorough searches of areas in Chicago
1:42:48where Mr Simpson might have visited
1:42:54I don't think I was aware of areas that
1:42:56he may have visited other than the hotel
1:42:58well that's one area did you ask that a
1:43:00search be conducted of the hotel a
1:43:02search was conducted of the hotel did
1:43:04you ask that a search be conducted of
1:43:05any surrounding areas of the
1:43:08hotel no I was not aware of that that
1:43:11was done without my Direction so you are
1:43:14aware that a search was done of
1:43:15surrounding areas but not not at your
1:43:17direction well it was done as part of
1:43:20the investigation of the of the
1:43:21detectives that were there you didn't
1:43:23think that was necessary no sir I was
1:43:26not aware of it I wasn't there I didn't
1:43:28know what was going on in
1:43:30Chicago you wanted to know didn't you
1:43:32you wanted to be informed of what was
1:43:34going on in Chicago I take it I was
1:43:36informed after it was over with yes and
1:43:39you were informed that a search of the
1:43:40area and lots adjacent to the hotel were
1:43:43thoroughly searched were you not
1:43:46yes seriously justreg that that's your
1:43:49say Mr shabir receed thank you honor
1:43:54and in conjunction uh with all these
1:43:57searches for the knives that you've told
1:43:59us about would you say a equal search
1:44:01was done for bloody
1:44:05clothing that was part of the part of
1:44:07the reason for searching yes and has any
1:44:10bloody clothing that relates to this
1:44:12case ever been found
1:44:15yes other
1:44:20than what you found in your search of
1:44:22the Rockingham house was there anything
1:44:25found as a result of the search relating
1:44:28to bloody clothing no we'll get to that
1:44:31in a
1:44:37minute have you had enough resources to
1:44:40look for bloody
1:44:42clothing the same resources that I had
1:44:44to look for the murder weapon when you
1:44:47got your call at about 3:00 uh you were
1:44:50at
1:44:51home that's correct yeah on
1:44:55June the 12th June 13th early early
1:44:58morning of June 13th what area uh do you
1:45:02reside in I don't want to know
1:45:03specifically but what general
1:45:05area this how long did it take you to
1:45:08get from where you were to uh the Bundy
1:45:14location approximately 40 45 minutes did
1:45:17you shower uh before you came shave
1:45:20before you came or just uh get up and
1:45:22come I Char and
1:45:26shaved did anyone give you directions to
1:45:29get to Bundy or did you know how to get
1:45:33there I was given directions by
1:45:38uh detective headquarters on the
1:45:42radio are you familiar as a as a
1:45:45detective in West Los Angeles uh you
1:45:48worked there for three years is that
1:45:49correct yes and part of the requirements
1:45:52of it is detective is to become familiar
1:45:54with the area that you're working isn't
1:45:56that
1:45:56correct well I think that's for any
1:45:59police officer yes I me that was uh that
1:46:01applied to you
1:46:03also well I was not a patrol officer
1:46:05there so a lot of a lot of areas of West
1:46:07LA I was never
1:46:09in you wouldn't uh say uh s Venni is a
1:46:13uh San Veni is a main thoroughfare that
1:46:16s is well known that you were aware of
1:46:18yes sir and Bundy is a major street that
1:46:20you were aware of uh yes sir so when
1:46:23somebody said it's near San Ven and
1:46:25Bundy and here's the address you were
1:46:27able to find that without getting
1:46:29Specific Instructions from your home
1:46:31isn't that
1:46:32correct well yes I could but I asked for
1:46:37directions before I got there because I
1:46:39didn't know whether it was north or
1:46:40south of uh Wilshire Boulevard they just
1:46:42gave me a street address so you wanted
1:46:44location but you knew the general area I
1:46:47knew the general area yes and it wasn't
1:46:50difficult for you to find no sir it
1:46:52wasn't you found it with virtually no
1:46:54trouble that's correct when you got that
1:46:57call uh you were told that you were
1:46:59going to be taking over the
1:47:01investigation of the death of Nicole
1:47:03Brown Simpson is that
1:47:05correct that's
1:47:08correct did you issue any orders
1:47:11immediately upon receiving that call as
1:47:14to what people should do who were
1:47:16presently at the scene no sir I didn't
1:47:19and you were told there were already
1:47:21officers at the scene yes yes and you're
1:47:24aware that time is of the essence in a
1:47:26homicide investigation are you
1:47:30not as a general statement yes and that
1:47:33the more time goes by the greater chance
1:47:35of contamination of evidence or
1:47:37destruction of evidence isn't that
1:47:41correct I no I wouldn't say that's a
1:47:45total correct statement it depends on
1:47:46the evidence and uh normally when you
1:47:49talk about the more time that goes by as
1:47:51you're talking about a cold
1:47:54Trail now you know there are general
1:47:56rules to follow in a homicide
1:47:58investigation absolutely yes and you
1:48:01were chosen because you are one of the
1:48:02most senior homicide investigators isn't
1:48:05that correct no I was chosen because I
1:48:08was on call that weekend that happened
1:48:09to me my on call weekend well isn't your
1:48:12unit A specialized unit sir yes and
1:48:14isn't that the unit that handles all the
1:48:16special cases of
1:48:19homicide most of the time yes
1:48:22and aren't you one of the most senior
1:48:24members of that
1:48:27unit
1:48:29yes and immediately upon getting that
1:48:32call it was time for Action wasn't
1:48:35it yeah it was time to prepare myself
1:48:37and respond yes but there were things
1:48:40that had to be done because you knew you
1:48:41were an hour away didn't you that's
1:48:43correct so there were things that had to
1:48:46be done immediately to make sure that
1:48:49that crime scene was protected isn't
1:48:52that correct
1:48:54well I'm I it's been my experience in 26
1:48:57years that the crime scenes are
1:48:58protected by uniform that Ares there
1:49:00before
1:49:01anybody but you are going to have
1:49:04responsibility and you want it done your
1:49:06way don't you when I get there yes you
1:49:09don't want to rely on somebody else's
1:49:11judgment in doing something do you well
1:49:13I have to do that every day sir well
1:49:15didn't you tell us even regarding
1:49:17detective Ferman that you wouldn't rely
1:49:18on what he was doing not after I'm there
1:49:21but I have to rely on people before I
1:49:23get there
1:49:25definitely so it was not anything that
1:49:28you did to contact the people and say at
1:49:31least seal the crime scene and make sure
1:49:33no one enters until I get there did you
1:49:35give that instruction no I did
1:49:45not in your uh training
1:49:49as a police officer and homicide
1:49:52detective
1:49:53you have learned that it's important to
1:49:55keep detailed notes of an investigation
1:49:57have you not yes and you've told us now
1:50:00that you have kept detailed notes in
1:50:02this case I didn't say that
1:50:04no have you kept detailed notes this was
1:50:08an unusual circumstance normally I would
1:50:10this one I didn't have the chance to so
1:50:13your answer is no I did
1:50:15not did you designate somebody as you've
1:50:18been trained to do to be a designated
1:50:21notaker yes who did you designate as a
1:50:24notetaker the criminalist the
1:50:26criminalist that's correct and where in
1:50:28the Los Angeles Police Department manual
1:50:30does it say that the lead detective in a
1:50:33homicide case shall designate a
1:50:35criminalist as a
1:50:37notaker the criminalist in the
1:50:41homicide Manual of the Los Angeles
1:50:43Police Department is the Once he's
1:50:46assigned a case is the person that
1:50:49collects
1:50:50preserves notes measures and Records
1:50:55where evidence is found and where
1:50:57evidence is recovered from did you
1:50:59understand my question yes I did and
1:51:03that's why the criminalists did it so
1:51:05you're saying that that is designated in
1:51:07the Los Angeles Police Department manual
1:51:10that a lead investigator shall designate
1:51:13the criminalist as a notetaker I didn't
1:51:14say shall I said I could probably
1:51:17designate anybody that I wanted to that
1:51:19morning I did the criminals and is that
1:51:20what it says that somebody other than a
1:51:22sworn
1:51:23LAPD uh trained Personnel shall be
1:51:26designated as a notetaker it doesn't say
1:51:28notaker it says for collection
1:51:30preservation and
1:51:32uh and taking of the evidence didn't you
1:51:35tell us that the criminalist didn't get
1:51:37to Rockingham till 7:00 710 who was the
1:51:41notaker at
1:51:42Bundy my partner ultimately your partner
1:51:46yes so you designated detective Lang as
1:51:48the notaker no I didn't designate him he
1:51:52he volunteered for that job so he took
1:51:55the notes at Bundy yes and did he take
1:51:57the notes at Rockingham up until 7:00 no
1:52:00who took the notes up at Rockingham up
1:52:02until 7 o' no
1:52:05one that's a violation of Department
1:52:07procedure isn't
1:52:09it no I wouldn't say it
1:52:12is now many times the purpose of taking
1:52:16notes detailed notes in a criminal
1:52:19investigation is many time these
1:52:21investigations take a long period of a
1:52:22time do they not yes that's correct and
1:52:25many times cases that are filed don't
1:52:28come to trial for years isn't that
1:52:31correct for years
1:52:33yeah I guess I guess you could say one
1:52:36or two years yeah that's a fair
1:52:38statement and it' be very hard with all
1:52:40the material that you've had to uh
1:52:44digest in this case to remember all the
1:52:46important details wouldn't it without
1:52:50notes it's according to what details
1:52:52you're talking about I remember this
1:52:54case very very
1:52:57well so you took it upon yourself just
1:53:00not to take notes at Rockingham no that
1:53:03wasn't the situation at
1:53:08all when you um got to
1:53:13Bundy and arrived there at 4:05 I
1:53:16believe you told us in the
1:53:18morning
1:53:21you were
1:53:24now in charge of the situation for 1
1:53:26hour is that
1:53:29correct from 3:00 until 4:05 when you
1:53:32got the notification you now it was your
1:53:34case wasn't it at
1:53:393:00 I guess you could hypothetically
1:53:42say that yes I don't want to guess I
1:53:45want to know I think the jury wants to
1:53:47know more
1:53:48importantly whose case was it at 3:00 in
1:53:51the morning it wasn't my case case until
1:53:52I arrived there and was instructed by my
1:53:55supervisor that we were taking the case
1:53:57so your your case didn't begin until
1:53:59when till 4:05 okay whose case was it
1:54:03from 3:00 to
1:54:054:05 it was being secured for the
1:54:08arrival of Robbery Homicide division
1:54:10whose case was it from 3:00 to 4:05 sir
1:54:14Robbery Homicide division that's
1:54:17you yes but I can't physically take
1:54:20charge until I'm on the scene
1:54:26so for at least an hour and five minutes
1:54:30there is nobody in charge of the Bundy
1:54:34crime scene where two bloody murders
1:54:36have taken place that's not true well
1:54:38who was in charge West Los Angeles
1:54:40division had Security on the crime scene
1:54:42so they were in charge of the
1:54:43investigation at that time no they were
1:54:45in charge of securing the crime scene at
1:54:48that time so what you're saying is for
1:54:49an hour and 5 minutes nobody
1:54:52investigated Bundy that's
1:54:55correct when time is of the essence in a
1:54:57homicide
1:55:00investigation boy it would be a perfect
1:55:02world if I could have been there at uh
1:55:0410 1030 it would have been a perfect
1:55:12world how many members of the Los
1:55:15Angeles Police Department were there
1:55:16when you
1:55:21arrived approximately 15 all standing
1:55:25around that's correct
1:55:27yes with two people who have had their
1:55:30throat
1:55:33slashed is that
1:55:37correct yes nobody is looking for any
1:55:43suspects well I don't think that's a
1:55:45fair statement I think uh a canvas was
1:55:48going on in the neighborhood they were
1:55:50attempting to locate Witnesses
1:55:53uh attempting to elicit information that
1:55:56would help in the investigation up to
1:55:58that point you think or you know well I
1:55:59know it was going
1:56:01on what about uh beginning the crime
1:56:04scene investigation that hour and five
1:56:07minutes could important
1:56:09evidence become
1:56:13destroyed
1:56:15sustain what could happen to evidence in
1:56:17your estimation in the period of an hour
1:56:19and 5 minutes in a case like this
1:56:24sustain
1:56:26does do you have any experience in
1:56:29evidence degrading do you know what that
1:56:31term means degrading of evidence yes I
1:56:33do what does it
1:56:35mean that's the the quality of the
1:56:38evidence itself begins to deteriorate
1:56:41that could happen immediately
1:56:43upon for instance blood evidence
1:56:45striking pavement that could start
1:56:47immediately and would you agree sir that
1:56:49the longer you wait the greater the
1:56:51chance is that there'll be deterioration
1:56:54of
1:56:57evidence
1:56:58oh again I think that would depend on
1:57:01where the evidence was what about
1:57:03weather conditions could uh weather
1:57:06conditions move well let me ask you this
1:57:08as a foundational question do you know
1:57:10the difference between gross evidence
1:57:11and trace evidence M what yes would you
1:57:14tell the jury please okay trace evidence
1:57:16is uh hair fiber evidence uh of that
1:57:20type gross evidence is physical evidence
1:57:23like the glove or a murder weapon or
1:57:26clothing or what have you is trace
1:57:28evidence limited to her and fibers no
1:57:32tell us what else trace evidence can
1:57:34Encompass tra trace evidence could
1:57:36Encompass soil uh could Encompass
1:57:42uh minute or any any article that it's
1:57:47not uh that can't be seen by the human
1:57:49eye that could be attached to clothing
1:57:52to a person uh whatever and in your
1:57:56experience trace evidence is potentially
1:57:58important evidence Very Yes and in your
1:58:01experience trace evidence tends to
1:58:03degrade over time more quickly than
1:58:05gross
1:58:07evidence what's
1:58:12grounds
1:58:17oh I
1:58:20I I would say that's probably a fair
1:58:23statement yes that it will degrade
1:58:25quicker than a hard piece of evidence I
1:58:28mean something as simple as a uh wave of
1:58:31the hand could uh remove trace evidence
1:58:34from a body of an individual could it
1:58:38not probably a movement of the
1:58:43air probably a movement of the air could
1:58:45you biological conditions naturally
1:58:48cause trace evidence to degrade do they
1:58:50not
1:58:54yes are you familiar with the uh 24 by
1:58:5924
1:59:03rule no that doesn't mean anything to me
1:59:06what is
1:59:07that
1:59:09that's wait a minute lawyers asked the
1:59:15questions are you familiar with a rule
1:59:17that says the 24 hours before death and
1:59:21the 24 hours after death are the crucial
1:59:24times for a homicide
1:59:27investigator for capturing the suspect
1:59:30Yes actually actually I think actually I
1:59:32think it's uh 4848 instead of
1:59:362424 that's a rule you adhere to yeah as
1:59:40best I can certainly and also for
1:59:42excluding the innocent oh
1:59:45absolutely that's one of our basic uh
1:59:48basic functions that's what you really
1:59:50focus on isn't it no I I focus on trying
1:59:53to find out what actually occurred what
1:59:55the truth of the matter is and the more
1:59:58time that goes by the greater chance
2:00:00that evidence will be destroyed be
2:00:04eliminated be not be not be available or
2:00:06be contaminated in some way isn't that
2:00:10correct it's also about the third time
2:00:12we've asked the
2:00:18question when you arrived uh Detective
2:00:22Ferman and Phillips were standing in the
2:00:23middle of the
2:00:25street yes they were at the intersection
2:00:27of Bundy and Dorothy
2:00:30and it was your opinion that at that
2:00:33location what they were doing was
2:00:35securing the crime
2:00:39scene is that a question was that your
2:00:42opinion that they were securing the
2:00:43crime
2:00:45scene no they were not securing the
2:00:47crime scene were they preserving the
2:00:49Integrity of the crime scene by standing
2:00:51up there
2:00:53no they
2:00:55weren't what were they doing they were
2:00:57awaiting our
2:01:00arrival were there things as a trained
2:01:03homicide investigator if you were
2:01:05relieved from a case would you have some
2:01:08responsibility until your replacement
2:01:11showed
2:01:12up yes what was that
2:01:15responsibility to attempt to elicit any
2:01:18Witnesses in the area and maintain
2:01:20control of the crime scene until the
2:01:22handling detectives AR so now the only
2:01:24two homicide detectives there detective
2:01:26Phillips and detective Ferman are not
2:01:28trying to elicit testimony from anybody
2:01:30are they that was being done by uniform
2:01:33I'm saying they were there they weren't
2:01:34trying to do that as detectives were
2:01:37they elicit testimony elicit statements
2:01:41from potential Witnesses no I believe
2:01:43they testified they stood in the street
2:01:44and waited for us and they weren't there
2:01:47preserving the Integrity of the crime
2:01:49scene were they no they were just
2:01:52passing the time they were waiting for
2:01:56us had anybody notified them how long it
2:01:58would be until you got
2:02:00that I don't know so if you lived
2:02:04further away than 45 minutes or an hour
2:02:06and took two hours they'd be standing in
2:02:08the street according to what you uh
2:02:11observed for two
2:02:14hours that's a good hypothetical
2:02:17situation yeah I don't think I've ever
2:02:18taken two hours to report to a crime
2:02:20scene though but there are detectives
2:02:22you say that probably live two hours
2:02:24away don't
2:02:32they how many people had been inside the
2:02:35crime scene before you got
2:02:41there call for
2:02:43speculation I'm sorry calls for
2:02:46speculation did you are there any
2:02:48records to IND how many uh officers had
2:02:52been at the crime scene before you got
2:02:55there had been at or in the crime scene
2:02:59at the
2:03:00crime yeah there's a log

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