YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → OJ Simpson Trial - March 20th, 1995 - Part 2 (Last part)

OJ Simpson Trial - March 20th, 1995 - Part 2 (Last part) — Transcript

by OJ Trial Uncut · 14,286 words · 2,753 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:05Looks like there was a total of
0:07approximately 24 people at the crime
0:09scene before my arrival.
0:12And it was important for you to
0:15determine whether any of those people
0:17had been
0:19in the general area of the crime scene.
0:21Is that correct?
0:24Yeah, I made that determination.
0:25And had any personnel been inside the
0:28general crime scene area?
0:31Inside the tape?
0:33Inside what you would describe Do you
0:34know what the general crime scene area
0:36is in police parlance?
0:38Yeah, that would be inside the security
0:40the area that's secured.
0:42Okay. Were any uh
0:45officers inside that area before your
0:47arrival according to what you
0:48determined?
0:49Yes.
0:50How many?
1:00I would say six. Six or seven.
1:04Are you familiar with a uh
1:07man by the name of William Bodziak?
1:10Yes.
1:11Is he one of the experts that have been
1:13employed by uh
1:15the prosecution in this case?
1:18Yes.
1:19And he's a member of the FBI?
1:20Yes.
1:21And is he one of the leading experts in
1:23the uh country on crime scene
1:25investigation?
1:29I think his specialty is on uh
1:31shoes. I I wouldn't say crime scene
1:33investigation.
1:34Footwear impression evidence?
1:36Yes.
1:38Have you read his books?
1:39No, I have not.
1:42Would you agree
1:43Objection.
1:46Premature at this point. Haven't heard
1:48the question.
1:49Would you Would you agree as a part of
1:52your education
1:53Pardon me, your honor.
1:55Counsel, how can I tell the question
1:58would you agree? How do I know what's
1:59coming?
2:03I'm saying it's premature until I hear
2:04the question, Counsel. I'm not
2:07I can't
2:08guess what the question's going to be.
2:11Mr. Shapiro.
2:12Thank you very much, your honor.
2:14Would you agree as an an expert in crime
2:16scene investigation that you should not
2:19allow anyone, including other law
2:21enforcement personnel, into the general
2:24crime scene area except when it is
2:26necessary to tend to victims?
2:29What's the objection?
2:30Leading the witness.
2:31What's the objection?
2:32He's leading the witness. He's asking a
2:33question that I'd like to see answered.
2:34Sustain.
2:40Would you agree
2:42that a crime scene should be secured
2:46immediately?
2:48Yes.
2:48Is that the most important thing to do?
2:51Yes.
2:51Is that the first rule of thumb for
2:54crime scene investigators?
2:58That's normally not done. That's the
2:59first rule of thumb for uniformed
3:01officers, yes.
3:03It should be done, but it's not done.
3:05No. Normally, investigators are not the
3:08first on the scene.
3:10Um
3:11it's been my experience in 26 years the
3:13uniform is there first. They secure the
3:15site crime scene and notify us.
3:17Aren't police officers all trained
3:22personnel?
3:23Trained in what, sir?
3:26Of course, they're trained personnel.
3:28Basic crime scene investigation?
3:30Definitely, yes.
3:31be something elementary that what
3:33happens if you arrive on a homicide
3:34scene, what to do?
3:36Yes, sir.
3:38That's just common sense, isn't it?
3:40Certainly is.
3:41And would you agree that
3:44a crime scene should be sealed and no
3:47one should enter it except to tend to
3:49victims?
3:52No one that's not involved in the
3:54investigation, yes.
3:55No. No one should enter it except to
3:58tend to victims. You can disagree with
4:00that.
4:00I do disagree with that.
4:01with that.
4:03And
4:05you've told us you haven't read any
4:07books by experts in the field. Have you
4:09consulted experts in the field as to the
4:12proper uh
4:14procedures
4:16regarding entrance into a crime scene?
4:21Have I consulted experts?
4:25I've met with many experts over 26
4:27years, yes.
4:28Is it very easy to disturb things within
4:31a crime scene?
4:37What are the dangers of entering a crime
4:39scene if you're not trained properly?
4:44Destruction and contamination of
4:45evidence.
4:51And
4:52when you're dealing now in the area of
4:54DNA, you're dealing with minute
4:57pieces of evidence, all right, true?
5:01Ultimately, they're minute, yes.
5:03Sometimes microscopic.
5:05Yes, that's correct.
5:06Sometimes they can't even be seen under
5:08a microscope.
5:10I don't know. That's way out of my field
5:12of expertise. I really don't know that.
5:15Didn't you learn about this
5:17in your continuing education?
5:19What, learn about doing testing on DNA?
5:21Wait, wait, wait. Wait, you're arguing
5:23with the witness. He says some things
5:25you can't see.
5:27All right?
5:28What is your What is the importance of
5:30footwear impression evidence?
5:36Is there Is Are you familiar with the
5:38term footwear impression evidence?
5:41Yes.
5:43Have you read any books?
5:45Well, first of all, do you know if there
5:46any books written on footwear impression
5:48evidence?
5:49Well, I'm sure there are collection of
5:51evidence, yes.
5:51And that would be something that To to
5:54be a homicide investigator, you have to
5:56have a broad knowledge of lots of
5:58things, don't you?
6:00Yes.
6:01And you have to understand basic
6:02forensic pathology?
6:07Uh
6:07that's probably a fair term, yeah.
6:09You have to understand the basic
6:12workings of a criminalist?
6:14Yes.
6:15You have to understand fingerprint
6:17analysis both latent and patent?
6:19Yes.
6:20You have to understand footwear
6:22impression evidence both latent and
6:23patent?
6:25Well, I'm not sure that you have to
6:28You You have to know what you're looking
6:30at, what you're seeing. Yes, that's why
6:32we have experts that assist us in these
6:34investigations.
6:35And you direct the experts, don't you?
6:37We point out the items, they do the
6:39collection, they do the uh the uh
6:45the comparisons and so on and so forth.
6:47I don't do that.
6:48the one who's walking by with a
6:50magnifying glass saying, "This is what I
6:52want to preserve."
6:53Like Sherlock Holmes with a magnifying
6:55glass, no. Yeah, I Yes, I go into the
6:58crime scene to acclimate myself to the
7:00scene,
7:01to know what's there so I can direct the
7:04criminalist when he gets there
7:06for the search for obvious evidence as
7:08well as
7:09latent evidence that may be there.
7:13Well, you said two things that are
7:14interesting. This search to know what's
7:16there.
7:16Mhm.
7:17Some things that are there
7:19are not apparent, isn't that correct?
7:21Oh, yeah, that's
7:22where your expertise comes in.
7:25Isn't that true?
7:28What are we talking about here?
7:30Fingerprints?
7:30Things that are not apparent.
7:32Well, what are What I mean
7:33Anything that may not be apparent to
7:36somebody who is not an expert detective
7:39like yourself.
7:42I
7:43I don't know what we're talking about.
7:45There's things that are not apparent
7:47here on this floor. What are we talking
7:48about?
7:49Well, let's say you were investigating a
7:50crime scene and something happened here.
7:52Would you want to
7:54cordon off this area of the floor for
7:57any reason?
7:58Absolutely, yes.
7:58Why?
7:59For uh
8:01for a examination by a criminalist, for
8:04trace evidence, for uh whatever may be
8:06there.
8:07What about footwear impression evidence?
8:09Is that something that has been emerging
8:10in the last 5 years?
8:13Has becoming very important in crime
8:15scene investigation.
8:16I think it's something that's been
8:17around for a long time, longer than 5
8:19years.
8:20When I say emerging, that there are
8:22recently developing new techniques to
8:25find latent footprints.
8:28Yes.
8:29To find impression footwear impression
8:32evidence.
8:33Yes.
8:33Do you know what I mean by that?
8:34Yeah, I sure do.
8:35That if somebody stepped on a carpet,
8:37that there are now techniques available
8:39to determine
8:41what shoe was used to make that to step
8:43in that area, even though you can't see
8:45anything with the naked eye?
8:48Well, I'm not sure about carpet.
8:49Normally they they lift those from hard
8:51surfaces. Uh
8:53not porous surfaces like a carpet.
8:56Do you have Have you read any materials
8:58in keeping up with the scientific
9:00literature on what impressions can be
9:02drawn from carpet?
9:04Is there any carpet in this case?
9:05Yes, in two locations.
9:08Proceed.
9:10No, I haven't.
9:12Is this the first time you've heard
9:13about that?
9:15First time I've heard about what?
9:16That you may be able to get very
9:19valuable evidence from carpet.
9:22No, it's not the first time I've heard
9:23that.
9:24So, I take it any area that there was
9:26carpet in, nobody would be allowed to go
9:28in.
9:32Sustain.
9:34Rephrase your question.
9:35If there was areas
9:37in a crime scene that had carpet,
9:39would you prevent people from going in
9:42there?
9:45Well, I would prevent
9:47anybody that wasn't working the crime
9:48scene from going into the crime scene,
9:50yes.
9:51But, to investigate a crime scene, you
9:54have to go into a crime scene to
9:56investigate it.
9:57But, you have to go in carefully, don't
9:58you?
9:59Extremely carefully, yes.
10:00And you have And you have to be aware of
10:02where potential evidence is.
10:05Absolutely.
10:06And if you're not aware of where
10:07potential evidence is, you could destroy
10:09potentially exculpatory evidence.
10:13That's a possibility, yes.
10:15And protective clothing is very
10:18important with the advancement of DNA
10:22collection of evidence, isn't it?
10:23Objection.
10:25Sustained.
10:26Are you aware of what is recommended for
10:29collecting and preserving DNA evidence?
10:32Objection.
10:33Overruled.
10:35I don't do the collection and testing of
10:38it, so I
10:40No, I I would have to say no on that.
10:43You're not aware of what should be done.
10:46I I just said no, I don't do the
10:48collection or the testing of it, so no,
10:50I'm not aware.
10:51Well, before you get to collection of
10:53evidence, it can also be destroyed or
10:56contaminated by even somebody as expert
10:59as yourself going into that area, isn't
11:01that true?
11:01Well, that's always a possibility, yes.
11:04And for that purpose, it is recommended,
11:06is it not, that footwear protection be
11:09used before entering a bloody crime
11:11scene?
11:12Objection.
11:14Grounds.
11:15Speculation.
11:16Sustained.
11:19Are you aware
11:21that
11:23professional standards
11:25require investigators to wear footwear
11:29covering
11:30when investigating sensitive areas where
11:33DNA evidence may appear.
11:36Objection.
11:37Grounds.
11:38May I ask the question?
11:40Sustain.
11:48It's obvious, is it not, that if you
11:49walk in with dirty shoes that you may
11:51contaminate a
11:52crime scene. Isn't that true?
11:55If you step in the evidence, yes, it is.
11:57And if you had dirty shoes that you may
11:59bring trace evidence from outside into
12:01the crime scene. Isn't that a
12:02possibility?
12:04Again, if you step in the evidence, yes.
12:06What if you walked into a crime scene,
12:07walked on a hair outside, and walked in?
12:10Is there a chance that hair could be
12:12moved from outside inside?
12:13Say that.
12:15Hold on.
12:16Say that again, please.
12:18You walk up to a crime scene, and there
12:20is a
12:21hair that you can't see on the sidewalk.
12:24Is there a chance that hair might stick
12:25to your shoe, and then you carry it in,
12:27and it can be discovered inside the
12:29crime scene?
12:30Objection.
12:31Speculation. Sustain.
12:37What effort does it take to wear
12:39footwear coverings?
12:43There wouldn't be much effort to it, I
12:44don't think.
12:45Is there any reason not to?
12:48No. Is there any reason not to wear head
12:50coverings in a crime scene?
12:53No. Is there any reason not to wear
12:55coveralls or other protective clothing
12:57in a crime scene?
12:59No. Is there any reason not to wear
13:01gloves within a crime scene?
13:03No.
13:04Are these things that would be overly
13:08burdensome to do?
13:10No.
13:19When you uh
13:22went through your training
13:24at homicide school, wasn't that one of
13:25the first things you were taught that
13:27when you enter a potential crime scene,
13:30don't pick up the phone?
13:34Yeah, that's a basic rule. Yes.
13:37What's the reason for that rule?
13:39Because you may have the telephone used
13:41by the suspect. You may have
13:42fingerprints on it. You may have trace
13:43evidence on it.
13:50What about using any of the facilities
13:53within the crime scene?
13:56Turning water on or off.
13:58That should not be done.
14:03Putting out candles.
14:09Nothing should be disturbed until the
14:10investigation is completed.
14:14Did you determine whether any of those
14:15things were done in this case?
14:18I found out later that the telephone was
14:20used. Yes.
14:22And that shouldn't have been done.
14:23That's the violation of
14:25It shouldn't have been done.
14:26rule of crime scene investigation, is it
14:28not?
14:28However, in this case
14:31the house did not appear or was not
14:33related to the crime scene.
14:36There was nothing to indicate that
14:38that the suspect had ever entered or
14:40anything had ever occurred in that the
14:42residence.
14:43So, your opinion today is the suspect in
14:46this case has never entered the Bundy
14:48residence.
14:48Oh, no. I didn't say that at all. It
14:51didn't appear that any aspect of the
14:52crime had occurred within the residence
14:55itself.
14:56When you start investigating a crime
14:58scene, you don't know what you're going
14:59to find, do you?
15:00Absolutely not.
15:01Therefore, everything is potential
15:02evidence, isn't it?
15:03Yes.
15:04And proper procedure would dictate
15:05following proper rules, would it not?
15:07Yes.
15:08And if there was evidence that uh may or
15:11may not have some value, what's the rule
15:14that you adhere to?
15:15It would be protected, collected, and
15:17booked.
15:18All right. When you walked through the
15:19crime scene, one of the first things you
15:21saw was a Ben & Jerry's ice cream cup
15:24and a plastic spoon.
15:26Correct?
15:28One of the first things that was pointed
15:29out to me, yes.
15:32And that was something that was reported
15:33in the notes of the previous homicide
15:36investigator.
15:39That he took note of, correct?
15:41Yes.
15:43So, obviously in doing your detailed
15:45note analysis, that's something that he
15:48deemed important. Is that correct?
15:53Well, I don't know whether he deemed it
15:54important. It was something that he
15:55noted.
15:56Is a plastic spoon something that is
15:58capable of getting latent fingerprints
16:00off of?
16:01I would think so, yes.
16:02What about a paper cup?
16:04Yes.
16:06Is there any reason why those items
16:07would not be taken into evidence?
16:10Yeah, they didn't appear to be connected
16:11to the crime scene from what I saw.
16:13But you didn't know at that time, did
16:14you?
16:16They didn't appear to be connected.
16:17But as of today, it's become an issue in
16:19this case, hasn't
16:21Sustained.
16:23Is there any reason What would What
16:25effort would it have taken
16:27to
16:29take those items into evidence?
16:31There would have been no effort if it
16:33was deemed necessary. They still to this
16:35day don't appear to have any connection
16:37to this case.
16:38But you don't know that, do you?
16:41Well, I think that's a fair assumption.
16:42Could you determine, perhaps, who was
16:45eating that ice cream by finding
16:47fingerprints on the cup?
16:50If they were there, yes.
16:51Might that have some importance?
16:54Well, I think it's been determined who
16:56was eating ice cream that night.
16:57Might that have some importance is my
16:59question.
17:03I still don't think it's connected to
17:04the crime scene. I don't see any
17:05importance to it.
17:07So,
17:09initially upon walking into a crime
17:11scene, you see something that's
17:13potential evidence, you determine by
17:15yourself
17:17as an experienced detective it probably
17:20doesn't have anything to do with this so
17:21we're just going to ignore it throw it
17:22out.
17:23Is that what you're telling us?
17:26I I don't I don't understand that. What
17:27do you mean? Are you speaking about a
17:29certain item or are you speaking about
17:31any crime scene or
17:32about this specific item.
17:34About the ice cream?
17:35Yeah, you saw it you didn't think it was
17:36of evidentiary value even though you
17:39have told us it could have a fingerprint
17:41on it and therefore you simply ignored
17:44it and had it thrown away.
17:46Objection.
17:47Sustained as to the last question.
17:56You immediately make decisions, don't
17:58you?
18:02Not all the time.
18:03You make them very quickly, don't you?
18:06No, not all the time.
18:07And you're not easy to change your
18:09opinion, are you?
18:10No, that's not true. I am.
18:12And if you had to do it all over again,
18:14you still wouldn't take that ice cream
18:15cup.
18:18Gee, money money money money
18:19quarterbacking is wonderful. Uh
18:22I still at to this day don't believe the
18:24ice cream is connected to the crime
18:26scene at Bundy.
18:27Your honor, may this be an appropriate
18:29time for recess?
18:30Yes.
18:30Thank you.
18:31All right, ladies and gentlemen, we're
18:32going to take our recess for the morning
18:34session. Please remember my admonitions
18:35to you. Don't discuss the case amongst
18:37yourselves. Don't form any opinions
18:38about the case.
18:39Don't conduct any deliberations without
18:41the matter being submitted to you. Don't
18:42allow anybody to communicate with you.
18:44We'll stand in recess until 1:30 and
18:47Detective Van Otter, you may step down.
18:49You're ordered return at 1:30. Thank
18:50you, counsel.
21:26All right, good afternoon again, Ms.
21:27Clark.
21:29Um in our discussions after you left to
21:32do some research on that issue we were
21:34discussing in chambers,
21:36uh Mr. Shapiro suggested that he would
21:39uh
21:40alter his order of examination. And
21:44we'll take that matter up uh first thing
21:45tomorrow, but
21:48but I'd like to put I'd like to put in
21:49at least an hour or so,
21:52get as much done as we can this
21:53afternoon. We're going to go past the uh
21:553:00 hour.
21:58Thank you, all.
21:58All right.
22:01All right, anything else? Any other
22:02surprises?
22:05All right, Deputy Magnalla, stand for
22:06your oath, please.
22:09Members of our jury panel,
22:11Detective Van Atter, would you resume
22:12the witness stand, please?
22:19All right, good afternoon, Detective.
22:20You're reminded you're still under oath.
22:22Mr. Shapiro, you may continue.
22:24Thank you, Anna. Good afternoon again,
22:25ladies and gentlemen.
22:27Detective Van Atter, over the noon hour
22:30uh
22:30you were requested to find your notes of
22:33the activities that took place at Bundy
22:36and Rockingham on the uh 12th through
22:39the 13th of uh June. Have you been able
22:42to locate those notes?
22:44I didn't realize I was supposed to do
22:45that, but as far as actual physical
22:47notes, there aren't any other than the
22:50partial statement I was doing on Kato
22:52Kaelin.
22:53And that consist of two paragraphs?
22:55Approximately, yeah.
22:57And that's the extent of uh
22:59what was what took place as far as
23:01recording information by you?
23:04I directed other information be
23:06recorded, but yes, that's true.
23:10Now,
23:11when you went through your uh
23:15walk-through at the Bundy crime scene,
23:19you told us that took approximately 10
23:20minutes.
23:22Yeah, yeah, approximately 10 minutes, 10
23:25to 15 minutes.
23:26You testified 10 minutes on your direct
23:29examination yesterday. Are you more
23:30comfortable with 10 to 15 minutes?
23:33That's an approximation, 10.
23:36You weren't keeping any log records of
23:38the time you entered the actual scene
23:40and left.
23:41No, sir.
23:42Did you check in with somebody at the
23:44Bundy address who was keeping such time
23:47records?
23:49When I arrived there?
23:50When you arrived and everything and when
23:52you walked through, yes.
23:54I signed in on the crime scene log when
23:56I arrived, yes.
23:57Would that be something that would be
23:58proper to maintain in the crime scene
24:00log, how long you spent inside the crime
24:03scene?
24:04No.
24:06How long did Detective uh
24:09Lang spend inside the crime scene?
24:13In his walk-through?
24:17I believe it was about 15 minutes,
24:19approximately 15 minutes.
24:21He was there a little longer than you?
24:22Yes.
24:24And you were not accompanying him at
24:25that time.
24:26No, I did not.
24:27outside on Bundy and Dorothy.
24:30Yes.
24:33And after he finished his walk-through,
24:35did you then immediately go to
24:38Rockingham?
24:44It was within a few minutes. We left
24:45there at approximately 5:00 that
24:47morning, yes.
24:49So, we discussed it before we left.
24:51He came out, you discussed it for a few
24:53minutes with him as to what he saw?
24:55Yes.
24:56And then uh
24:58the decision was made to go make the
24:59notification.
25:01That's correct, and you left immediately
25:02thereafter. Yes.
25:04Now, according to the logs, Detective uh
25:07Lang arrived at 4:25 in the morning.
25:11That's correct. And so, if he did a
25:1215-minute walk-through, that would uh be
25:16about 4:40, correct?
25:20If he immediately went on the
25:22walk-through, I'm not sure that that was
25:23the sequence of events. Well, how long
25:25did he wait before he went on the
25:26walk-through that you recall?
25:31I really couldn't answer that. I really
25:33don't know. Weren't you concerned with
25:34trying to get this thing going and start
25:36your investigation?
25:39That's what we did, yes.
25:41So, don't you now have about uh 20
25:43minutes unaccounted for when nothing is
25:45being done while you and your partner
25:47are there?
25:50I don't understand that.
25:53Well, if you arrive if Lang, according
25:55to the chronological record, arrived at
25:59uh
26:004:25,
26:03did a 15-minute walk-through,
26:05spent a few minutes before and a few
26:07minutes after,
26:09uh
26:10let's say even to That would make it
26:114:45,
26:13and there's 15 minutes before you leave.
26:15Was there an investigation that you
26:17people were doing uh during that 15
26:19minutes of Bundy?
26:21I think part of the investigation is
26:23myself and my partner conversing so we
26:26so we know what we have and so we sort
26:28of understand what's going on at that
26:30point. And I take it you notified a
26:32criminalist at that point because you
26:34now had determined it was a bloody crime
26:36scene, did you not? Not at that point,
26:38no. And you notified the coroner because
26:41you wanted to uh
26:42clearly ascertain the time of death.
26:45Not at that point.
26:47And you called for a photographer to
26:48videotape the entire uh crime scene in
26:51the most undisturbed way, did you not?
26:55A photographer was there when I got
26:56there.
26:57And did you direct the photographer to
26:58take an overall view of the complete
27:01pattern of all the uh
27:03footwear impressions that you had seen?
27:07I believe my partner did that.
27:08And was that done
27:12Was that done?
27:12Yeah, did the photographer do that?
27:14Follow those orders?
27:15To the best of my knowledge, yeah.
27:16And so you have seen a photograph that
27:18shows the entire pathway
27:20with
27:20all the footprints that you intend to
27:23talk about in this case?
27:25I believe it does, yes.
27:27And
27:28did you call for someone to videotape
27:30the entire crime scene?
27:31No, sir, I did not.
27:32And did you call for a light truck to
27:36illuminate the area so that you could
27:37better ascertain whether or not there
27:40might be another matching glove
27:43to the one that you had seen by the body
27:45of Ronald Goldman?
27:47I did not.
27:49And did you cause a grid search to be
27:52done at the location to look for
27:55uh
27:56a matching or second glove at that
27:58location?
28:00No, I didn't.
28:03As a detective, would you agree that it
28:06is important for you to be able to
28:08prioritize
28:10what you're going to do regarding a
28:12crime scene investigation?
28:14Yes.
28:15Some things are more important than
28:16others, is that correct?
28:19Yeah, they're all important. That's a
28:20general statement. Uh
28:23Everything's important.
28:24But you can't do everything at the same
28:26time, can you?
28:27No, I wish I could.
28:29So therefore you have to prioritize,
28:30don't you?
28:32According to what the scene is, yes.
28:35Each one is different. Each one has
28:37different priorities.
28:38And if you had to prioritize between
28:41notifying
28:43the ex-husband
28:45of a victim and beginning a crime scene
28:48investigation, what one of the two would
28:51you feel would be more important?
28:55Putting it just in those terms with with
28:58the other circumstances left out, I
29:01would say start the crime scene
29:03investigation, but there were other
29:05circumstances that came into play in
29:07this.
29:09And how many officers uh
29:13would you
29:15use to make a death notification?
29:19Personally.
29:23That would depend on the circumstances.
29:27And is there any criteria as to who can
29:30make a death notification within the Los
29:32Angeles Police Department?
29:37As to who?
29:38Yes.
29:40I would think any sworn personnel could.
29:43Now, Commander Bushy is the commander of
29:47the West Bureau. Is that correct?
29:50He's the assistant commander, I believe,
29:52of West Bureau.
29:53And West Bureau does not encompass the
29:56robbery-homicide
29:58division, does it not? Does it?
30:00No.
30:00It does not, I should say.
30:02It does not.
30:03Uh
30:05And that order that you heard about
30:07secondhand was from Detective Phillips,
30:10who was told by Commander Bushy that he
30:12should make a personal notification.
30:13Isn't that correct?
30:14Yes.
30:17And during the hour and 5 minutes that
30:20Detective Phillips was waiting for you,
30:22did you ask him if he had gone to make a
30:25personal notification?
30:28He told me that he hadn't.
30:30Did you ask him why he didn't, why he
30:31was just deciding to stand out in the
30:33middle of the street for an hour and 5
30:34minutes?
30:35No.
30:36Isn't that something that could have
30:38easily have been done by Detective
30:40Phillips, to your knowledge?
30:43That could have been done, but that
30:45would not be
30:48the proper way to do it without us being
30:50present.
30:54What about Detective Fuhrman? Could he
30:56have gone with uh
30:59Detective Phillips to make a death
31:00notification?
31:02Of course he could have, but it still
31:04wouldn't have been the proper way
31:05without us being there.
31:06Well, what about Lieutenant Rogers, who
31:07was your supervisor? Could he have gone?
31:10Certainly.
31:10He's not a homicide investigator, is he?
31:13No, he's a supervisor.
31:14He's not an investigator, is he?
31:17He's a lieutenant.
31:18Is he an investigator?
31:21Is it Is
31:21By rank or or
31:23Is it his job to investigate homicide
31:25scenes?
31:26No, it's his job to supervise.
31:28So, he he from your bureau could have
31:30gone and made the notification.
31:32Certainly.
31:34And the 25 other people that were there
31:36could have gone to make the
31:37notification.
31:39That's correct.
31:43And as far as directions to that
31:46location, once you were at Bundy, would
31:48you have any difficulty if somebody
31:51there said the location that you want to
31:54go to is at Rockingham and Sunset, take
31:58Sunset about 2 miles and turn right on
32:00Rockingham, three blocks. Would you be
32:02able to follow those directions?
32:04Me personally?
32:05Yes.
32:05Yes.
32:06So, you didn't need anybody to take you
32:08to that location, did you?
32:09Well,
32:11yeah, because we didn't know where the
32:12location was and we thought it would
32:14speed up the process.
32:16Plus, we needed their assistance.
32:18As I had explained before.
32:20Just where the location was.
32:23You've already conceded that if somebody
32:25told you to go
32:26west on Sunset to Rockingham and turn
32:29right, go up three blocks, you would
32:31have been able to follow that and find
32:32that, would you not?
32:33Certainly I could have.
32:35And it's not a difficult location to
32:36find, is it?
32:37No.
32:38Not hidden in any way?
32:39No.
32:42And at the time you arrived, you had for
32:44the first time met uh
32:47Detectives Phillips and Furman. Is that
32:48correct?
32:49That's correct.
32:51And you were there to notify them that
32:54uh
32:54or to officially take over because they
32:56had been notified they'd been relieved.
32:59That's correct.
33:00And in police uh
33:02practice, I take it that this is a big
33:05case.
33:07Would you agree with that?
33:11That's a very subjective term. Uh
33:15It's a big case because the
33:17the press and the media has made it a
33:19big case.
33:20All All homicides are to me are big
33:23cases.
33:25And that to be involved in a case like
33:26this from a detective's point of view is
33:29a feather in your cap, is it not?
33:32Not in my cap, no.
33:34And to be relieved from a case like this
33:37uh would be a tremendous disappointment
33:39for uh a a young detective, would it
33:42not?
33:42Objection.
33:44Sustain.
33:53You've also told us that you went over
33:55Did anybody tell you you should go to
33:58Rockingham to check on the welfare of
34:00the children?
34:06That question, I don't follow that
34:08question. The children's welfare was not
34:11The children were at uh West L.A.
34:13station.
34:14Did anybody tell you to go to Rockingham
34:16because the children's welfare was at
34:18issue?
34:19No, that was a a uh determination that
34:22myself and my partner made.
34:24And so you determined with all the
34:26officers in the juvenile division, all
34:28the officers at West Los Angeles, all
34:31the members available to take care of
34:33juveniles, you were going to take it
34:35upon yourself to prioritize
34:38and put that interest first. Is that
34:41your testimony?
34:42That was one of my priorities,
34:44absolutely.
34:44You're not a juvenile officer.
34:47No, but I think we went through this
34:49once before. Uh
34:51I had two very young children
34:54that had been taken from their bed, from
34:56their home
34:57by uniform police officers
35:00at a scene that their mother had been
35:02murdered at.
35:04And uh that's very, very traumatic for
35:07adults
35:10besides thinking about minor children.
35:13To me,
35:14these children are very, very important
35:16people and they have to be cared for.
35:18And to be sitting in a police station
35:22is a very traumatic thing for children
35:24and and that was very important to me to
35:27try and get them with family members.
35:29And I And I agree with you. But in
35:32balancing that against the 25 other
35:34officers who were at the scene who could
35:36have performed the same function
35:38and you being the only person who could
35:40mit admit people into the crime scene,
35:45is it your opinion that others could
35:47have equally satisfied the requirement
35:50of taking care of these young children
35:52who are in such desperate uh need of
35:55being reunited?
35:59Well Uh
36:01I'm sort of lost on the question. Could
36:03Could someone else have done what I did?
36:06Regarding the children.
36:07Certainly someone else could have.
36:08Yes, no one No one else other than Lang
36:11and yourself could have allowed access
36:13into the crime scene.
36:17At that point I would say no.
36:20But yet you chose to leave the crime
36:22scene not only by your with yourself and
36:25with your partner, but with the only two
36:27other investigators in the homicide area
36:31who could have also had some seasoning
36:34regarding the entry and exit into a
36:37crime scene. Is that correct?
36:39Yes.
36:41So, the scene is left now
36:44not to be
36:46investigated at all
36:48with the four people who have expertise
36:50in homicide investigations, so you can
36:53go do two things: notify the ex-spouse
36:57of the death
36:58and to provide in West LA for the care
37:03and comfort of the two young children.
37:06Sustain.
37:11Your purpose
37:13in taking four officers to go to the
37:16Rockingham estate was for solely for the
37:18notification. Is that correct?
37:21Our purpose for taking four officers was
37:24was actually twofold. Number one, they
37:26could direct us to the location because
37:28Fuhrman had been there before.
37:31And number two, we intended on them
37:34helping us with the notification,
37:37helping Mr. Simpson
37:39to
37:41make a disposition of the children, for
37:43us to meet Mr. Simpson
37:46for a later interview.
37:48Well, this wouldn't be a good time to
37:50establish a rapport with Mr. Simpson,
37:51would it?
37:54It's as good a time as any time.
37:55So, you're going to knock on the door,
37:57tell Mr. Simpson you have horrible news
38:00that his ex-wife has just been
38:03murdered, and plus we'd like to get to
38:06know you and talk about this. So, let's
38:08just sit down and talk for a while. Is
38:10that what you're telling us, sir?
38:11No, we didn't intend interviewing them.
38:13We intended to meet him,
38:16go back, do the crime scene, and set up
38:18a later interview with him.
38:20Well, you had additional information
38:21regarding Mr. Simpson when you went over
38:23there, didn't you?
38:27I had information Detective Furman told
38:30us that he had been at the location
38:32before on a 415 dispute call, yes.
38:35And he told you that arrest that
38:37resulted
38:39Did he also tell you that there had been
38:42previous incidents of domestic violence
38:45regarding O.J. Simpson and Nicole Brown
38:48Simpson?
38:49He didn't tell me that, no. He told me
38:52he had been there on a previous
38:53incident.
38:53Did he tell your partner there had been
38:55previous incidents of domestic violence?
39:00Detective Kaelin called the residence.
39:03Oh.
39:06There could have been some conversation
39:07about an '89 incident. The main what I
39:11recall most
39:13is he stated that he had been there
39:16on a previous radio call and knew where
39:19the location was. And that the radio
39:21call was
39:23in regards to a 415 family dispute.
39:28You have reviewed the uh
39:31report that's entitled the follow-up
39:33report, have you not?
39:34Yes.
39:35And that's really a misnomer because it
39:37doesn't follow up to any other report
39:38that was done by your Detective Lange,
39:40does it?
39:43A misnomer?
39:45Well, it says follow-up report, doesn't
39:46that tend to cause one to think that
39:49there was a report before this that this
39:51follows?
39:52Well, there was a report before that.
39:54Detective
39:55you and Lange?
39:56Yes.
39:57At the preliminary hearing you were
39:59asked that question. You said there
40:00wasn't. Do you recall that testimony?
40:04No, I don't recall saying that, no.
40:07We'll show that to you in a minute.
40:19So, you're telling me now that it was uh
40:21Fuhrman who gave you the information
40:22regarding the domestic violence. Is that
40:24correct?
40:25Or Lange?
40:26It was a conversation that was had in
40:28the street and I believe all four of us
40:30was there and
40:33as I recall Fuhrman
40:35said something to Phillips and then and
40:38I'm not sure whether it was Fuhrman or
40:39Phillips that relayed the information.
40:42My information was that Fuhrman had been
40:44there earlier.
40:49Do you have any information that Mr.
40:50Simpson had previously been arrested?
40:53Or just that they responded to a 415?
41:00Well, I think my information is Mr.
41:02Simpson was never arrested on that case.
41:05I think that's the information.
41:08And uh isn't it true, sir, that one of
41:11the reasons that you wanted to leave the
41:15crime scene and go to the Simpson
41:17residence was because you had
41:19information that there had been previous
41:21instances of domestic violence and you
41:25immediately suspected the ex-husband as
41:28being the person responsible in these
41:30cases?
41:31No, that's not true.
41:34Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
41:36Actually, let me put this up on the
41:37Elmo. We've already talked about this if
41:39you want.
41:57Is this the last sentence?
41:59No, this is on another report.
42:03All right. I don't believe we took that
42:04up specifically.
42:05All right, let me let me approach it
42:06another way. Do you object to this, sir?
42:08Let me ask you this. You have read the
42:10murder follow-up report, have you not?
42:12Yes.
42:13And are there any errors or omissions in
42:15that report?
42:19Errors and omissions?
42:25I I'm I'm comfortable with the report if
42:27that's what you're asking me.
42:28And you stand by that report, do you
42:30not?
42:31Well, I think it's a general overall a
42:33general overall view of what occurred,
42:35yes.
42:36Well, it's more than that. It's the only
42:37recordation that you and your partner
42:38have done regarding this case, isn't
42:40that correct?
42:42No.
42:44You'll show us later what other
42:45recordations you and your partner have
42:47done.
42:47Well, I think I I think I testified
42:49earlier that there's been death reports
42:51made on both victims and uh murder
42:53reports made on both of
42:54I'm talking about the facts surrounding
42:57the investigation and the information
42:58you have.
43:01Are there any other reports in along
43:03those areas that were done by you or
43:04your partnership?
43:05Well, there's been reports done through
43:06the entire investigation. There's three
43:09books full of reports.
43:10Well,
43:10your reports for us, okay? The ones that
43:12you and your partner have done.
43:14Is that Is that a question?
43:15Would you do that for us, please? That's
43:16a request. Not now.
43:18There's three books of reports.
43:20I don't know if you can do that tonight.
43:22Uh let me uh draw your attention to the
43:24second paragraph and ask you to read
43:26that.
43:37Okay.
43:40Did you have a chance to
43:41To read that?
43:41Yes.
43:43And does that refresh your memory as
43:45what Detective Phillips told uh you and
43:47Detective Lang?
43:49That's a possibility that he said that,
43:51yes. But again, my information is Mr.
43:54Simpson was never arrested on that case.
43:56What What does your report indicate in
43:58that regard, sir?
44:00Do you want me to read it?
44:01Yeah.
44:02Okay.
44:03The entire paragraph?
44:05Well, let's read the part with what you
44:07said to Phillips soldier.
44:12Phillips stated that victim Brown was
44:14the ex-wife of O.J. Simpson, a
44:15well-known athlete actor.
44:18Additionally, Phillips stated that Mr.
44:19Simpson and victim one had been
44:21embroiled in a previous domestic
44:23violence situation.
44:25One of these resulting in the arrest of
44:26Mr. Simpson.
44:28You said in a previous domestic violence
44:30situation. Is that what it says, sir?
44:34That's what the report says, yes.
44:35It doesn't say in previous domestic
44:37violence situations, plural?
44:40Situations, yeah.
44:41Is there a difference between situation
44:44and situations, sir?
44:45One is plural and one is singular, yes.
44:48Is there any significance to that in
44:49putting that in a report?
44:55Significance? I I
44:58I don't know I don't know how to answer
45:00that. Apparently, that's referring to
45:02more than one incident.
45:38Now, the location that you were going to
45:40was Rockingham, is that correct?
45:44360 North Rockingham from Bundy?
45:46From Bundy, yes.
45:49And you came down Rockingham as you
45:50showed us in that nice video that uh
45:54you prepared, is that correct?
45:57What's the question?
45:59You came down Rockingham
46:02when you were going to the house
46:05at when you were trying to locate the
46:07address of 360 North Rockingham.
46:10We drove north on Rockingham, yes.
46:12Yes, okay.
46:12Yeah, and I I didn't I didn't understand
46:15your question.
46:16You guys have to stop talking over each
46:17other here.
46:18I want to make it clear.
46:20And when you drove up
46:23you uh
46:25saw a gate
46:27and an address 360 uh North Rockingham,
46:30did you not?
46:34Yes, I did.
46:36Why didn't you park on Rockingham?
46:41I don't know. I followed uh Detective
46:42Phillips and parked behind him.
46:44I
46:45If you were looking for a reason
46:47I'm sorry.
46:47Did you finish?
46:48No reason.
46:53Clearly there was an entrance on
46:54Rockingham.
46:55Yes.
46:56And clearly the front door faced
46:57Rockingham.
47:00I don't think I could tell that as I
47:02drove up the street. I couldn't see the
47:04front door.
47:04Well, you could see the front door
47:05through the gate, couldn't you?
47:07Um
47:08when I when I walked over and looked,
47:10yes, but when I was driving up I didn't
47:12see it.
47:22Isn't it true, sir, that uh
47:25you were going over to Rockingham
47:28in addition to
47:34making what you have said as a
47:36notification to look for criminal
47:38activity?
47:42Um
47:43I think I think it crossed my mind not
47:45criminal activity. I think it crossed my
47:47mind to check on the welfare because of
47:49the
47:50closeness of the scene and the violence
47:52of the scene.
47:53The welfare of whom?
47:54The welfare of the occupants of the home
47:56since there was a tie to the to the two
47:59uh locations.
48:00And who did you determine were the
48:01occupants of the home?
48:04Which home, sir?
48:06The home you were going to check on the
48:07welfare of the occupants in.
48:09Mr. Simpson's home.
48:10Well, who were the occupants of that
48:11home that you went to check on?
48:14At that point?
48:15Yeah.
48:16Anybody that was there.
48:19Well, didn't you have something fixed in
48:20your mind when you say you were going to
48:22check on the welfare of somebody? Whose
48:23welfare were you going to check on, sir?
48:27Mr. Simpson.
48:31Cuz you were concerned about him,
48:33weren't you?
48:35I I wasn't so much concerned about him.
48:37I was
48:39I had concerns for the children.
48:44I wanted to meet him.
48:46I was informed that a commander of the
48:48police department had ordered a
48:51in-person
48:52notification.
48:56And uh I knew it was going to be a uh
49:00very newsworthy case.
49:02And I thought it best that we make a
49:04notification before the press did.
49:07Have you memorized that response? It's
49:09about the third time you've given it to
49:10us.
49:12Sustain.
49:14Jury is to disregard that last question.
49:16Is that the verbatim response you gave
49:17at the preliminary hearing?
49:19I I don't know.
49:22Sustain.
49:26Mr. Darden, I caution you on something.
49:27I don't expect the next question to be
49:29the same thing.
49:29Thank you, all right.
49:30I apologize.
49:36My question was
49:37were you concerned with the health and
49:39welfare of O.J. Simpson when you went to
49:42Rockingham?
49:46Not until I got there. I mean, there's
49:48there's always a concern when you have
49:50relatives, but not until other criteria
49:52was met.
49:54Okay.
49:56In order to make this notification now,
49:58four detectives
50:00arrive at Rockingham.
50:03Before you went there, because of these
50:05concerns, I take it you notified the
50:07communications department as to where
50:08you were going.
50:10No.
50:15Because of your concerns about welfare,
50:17I take it that you called for black and
50:19whites to meet you there.
50:22After I got there, I did, yes.
50:24Upon arrival, you called for black and
50:25whites?
50:26No, after after other circumstances were
50:28met.
50:29How long did it take for you to call for
50:30black and whites?
50:36Probably 15-20 minutes.
50:38What time did you call for the black and
50:39whites?
50:41I I didn't do it. I don't know exactly.
50:45Is that recorded in your log somewhere?
50:47No.
50:52You testified that for 10 to 15 minutes,
50:55four detectives took turns ringing the
50:57buzzer.
50:58To that activated a telephone that you
51:02could hear ringing from outside.
51:04Is that correct, sir?
51:05Yes.
51:07And would you say that that telephone
51:09rings
51:10for about a second
51:14before another ring comes on?
51:17Ooh, I don't know. There were five or
51:19six rings
51:21before it stopped.
51:24Would you say that uh
51:27since you could hear it outside,
51:30it would be your opinion that clearly
51:31somebody could hear it inside if
51:33somebody was inside. Is that correct?
51:37Yes.
51:39And would you say that 10 to 15 minutes
51:41is a very long time to ring
51:47someone.
51:52At 5:00 in the morning, I don't know. I
51:54don't know whether that is or not. Have
51:56you ever called someone to try to get
51:59someone on the telephone and let the
52:00telephone ring for 10 to 15 minutes?
52:08I don't think so. No, I don't know for
52:10sure.
52:12And the four detectives are now taking
52:14turns pushing uh this buzzer device on
52:17the gate?
52:19Well, I think there were three of us
52:21that rang it. I don't ever recall
52:24Fuhrman ringing the bell.
52:26Now, Fuhrman's role in coming there was
52:28purely to show you how to get there. Is
52:30that your testimony?
52:31And assist.
52:33Overruled.
52:35You can answer it.
52:36No.
52:41Was he coming as a backup unit for you?
52:43No.
52:46Was he coming to help you investigate?
52:48No.
52:49Was he coming to introduce you to Mr.
52:51Simpson?
52:52No.
52:55Was he coming to help you in the
52:56notification?
52:59He was coming we were going to make the
53:01notification. He was coming to assist
53:02Mr. Simpson if he needed assistance.
53:05And he had volunteered for that?
53:08No, we asked him to accompany us.
53:10You asked him to come with you to help
53:12Mr. Simpson in case Mr. Simpson needed
53:14something.
53:16Is that correct?
53:18That was part of the reasoning, yes.
53:20And Detective Phillips, why was he
53:22coming?
53:23Same reason.
53:24He was coming to see if he would help
53:26Mr. Simpson.
53:28Yes.
53:28And where in your reports did you
53:30indicate
53:32that this was your state of mind, sir?
53:36I don't know that I did.
53:39And where in your previous testimony
53:41before the grand jury, did you indicate
53:43this was
53:46I think I testified they were there to
53:48assist us.
53:50And where in your previous testimony
53:51under oath at a preliminary hearing did
53:54you indicate
53:55Uh the reason they were coming was to
53:57help Mr. Simpson, sir.
54:00I again testified they were there to
54:01assist us.
54:08After uh ringing the bell for 10 or 15
54:11minutes, which activated a telephone
54:13that you clearly heard ringing, then you
54:15decided to try to call Mr. Simpson on
54:18another telephone?
54:22That was Yes, after after noticing that
54:26the place had private security.
54:29Requested that that we get a telephone
54:32number from them, yes.
54:33How would that assist you if the uh
54:35telephone that was currently ringing was
54:37not being of any uh
54:39value?
54:40We were trying anything to make contact
54:43with
54:43uh within the uh residence.
54:46And as a policeman, do you have the
54:47ability to get the phone numbers of
54:50residents of homes?
54:54Sometimes, not all the time.
54:56Do you have Did you attempt to get the
54:58phone number of O.J. Simpson through
55:00police channels?
55:02Yes.
55:03What police channels did you use?
55:05Contacted the watch commander and asked
55:07him to contact uh West Tech Security to
55:09see if they had any phone number for
55:10him.
55:11the telephone company? Anybody think of
55:12calling the telephone company?
55:14Well, if it's a published number, you
55:16can get it. If it's non-published, you
55:18cannot get it.
55:19So, the police even policemen can't get
55:21that.
55:21That's correct.
55:22So, if you called up the supervisor at
55:25uh
55:26the telephone company that services that
55:28area and said uh this is an emergency
55:30situation, identified yourself, we have
55:32to get in touch with Mr. Simpson, can
55:34you get the a number, they would not be
55:36able to help you?
55:37They would tell you to get a search
55:38warrant if it was a non-published number
55:40for an emergency, for anything.
55:46In contacting Westec, did you ask them
55:48to come out to the location?
55:52I didn't contact them. I think I think
55:54the thrust of it was to attempt to find
55:57out if there was any travel plans and if
55:59uh
56:00and if they had a phone number.
56:01Did anybody ask Westec to come out to
56:03the location?
56:07I don't know that.
56:11Did anybody check with Westec as to uh
56:13whether it was Mr. Simpson's habit and
56:15custom to notify Westec every time he
56:18went out of town?
56:21Not to my knowledge.
56:28You eventually got another number that
56:30rang
56:32with the same type of ringing that you
56:34were getting from the front door, is
56:35that correct?
56:38From the front door?
56:39Well, from the door from I'm sorry, from
56:41the buzzer
56:42outside the gate.
56:43It was a telephone number that rang,
56:45yes. And it was the same type of ring
56:46that you heard that when you pressed the
56:49uh
56:50button at the gate.
56:54I didn't make the phone call, but I
56:55would say that was probably a good
56:57assumption, yes.
56:58And
56:59are you aware of uh
57:03getting a recording from an answering
57:05machine?
57:06I was told that, yes.
57:07And you were told that the answering
57:09machine said, "This is O.J. I'm out of
57:11town.
57:12I'll be back on Monday."
57:16No, I don't recall that. I just I was
57:18told that there was an answer uh
57:22something to the effect "This is O.J.
57:24I'm not home now." or something like
57:26that.
57:27You testified at the grand jury that the
57:30only response that came on the machine
57:32was OJ.
57:35Do you recall that testimony?
57:37No, I don't.
57:42Did you uh
57:46try to use any type of uh
57:50bullhorn
57:51to uh get Mr. Simpson's attention?
57:54No, sir.
57:55Did you try to flash any lights uh
57:58into the house to get his attention?
58:01Other than shining my flashlight into
58:03the driveway, no.
58:06Regarding the lighting in the driveway,
58:08uh you told us that the front door was
58:10well lit when you arrived. You arrived.
58:12Isn't that correct?
58:14No, I didn't say that.
58:15Were there Aren't there coach lights on
58:17the front door?
58:21I don't know that. I recall a light
58:23being on toward the front door,
58:25someplace inside the residence, and then
58:28toward the south side of the house.
58:30And then as I recall, there was one on
58:32upstairs that could have been the same
58:34light that was illuminating
58:36up and down.
58:37How many times have you been to that
58:38location?
58:40Twice.
58:41How many times have you seen photographs
58:43of that location?
58:48Several times. I don't know.
58:50And it's your testimony that you don't
58:51know whether or not there are coach
58:52lights at the front entrance?
58:54Well, that's a possibility. I I I don't
58:56recall right now that there are coach
58:58lights there.
59:00And isn't it true, sir, that there is a
59:03halogen street light
59:05at the adjacent corner of uh
59:08Ashford and Rockingham that completely
59:11illuminates the front door?
59:15No, that wouldn't be true. The front
59:16door is recessed, as I recall.
59:19There may be a light there that
59:21illuminates part of the driveway, but
59:23the front door itself is recessed.
59:25Does it illuminate the area walking
59:27immediately up to the front door, the
59:30brick area?
59:31I could see up to the up to the front of
59:34the house, yes.
59:35And it's very bright in that area
59:36because of that halogen light, is it
59:38not?
59:40I I I don't know whether it's real
59:42bright. I could see up there.
59:44See clearly?
59:46I could see up there. I could see there
59:47was no one there.
59:50Now, at any time did you give any
59:52directions to Detective Fuhrman to
59:57conduct an investigation outside
1:00:00the residence?
1:00:04No.
1:00:05You're in charge, is that correct?
1:00:08I'm one of the people in charge, yes.
1:00:10Detective Lange?
1:00:11Yes.
1:00:11And the other people are there only to
1:00:14assist you?
1:00:15Yes.
1:00:16They're working at your direction now?
1:00:19They're experienced police officers.
1:00:21They uh
1:00:23They don't necessarily work at my
1:00:25direction.
1:00:26Well, you would not allow them to
1:00:27independently
1:00:29do anything at the Bundy crime scene,
1:00:31would you?
1:00:34I don't know what you mean by that,
1:00:35independently do.
1:00:37Any type of investigation at the Bundy
1:00:38crime scene. All they were allowed to do
1:00:40was stand in the street and wait for you
1:00:41to come up. Isn't that correct?
1:00:44Well, I I I wasn't there. That was not
1:00:46my order.
1:00:48And so therefore you wouldn't allow them
1:00:50to do anything at the Rockingham crime
1:00:52scene, would you, without your
1:00:53direction?
1:00:53No, that's not true. They're experienced
1:00:55police officers.
1:00:56So they can do whatever they want?
1:00:58No, no, no, no, that's that's
1:01:00misreading.
1:01:01Experienced police officers have the
1:01:03ability to work without direct
1:01:06supervision at all times.
1:01:09So, in your opinion, Mark Fuhrman could
1:01:12do whatever he wanted based on his
1:01:14experience at the Rockingham scene.
1:01:20Ask me that again, please.
1:01:24Based on Mark Fuhrman's experience as a
1:01:27detective, which you were unaware of, he
1:01:29had the
1:01:32implicit permission from you to do any
1:01:34investigation he wanted at the
1:01:36Rockingham location.
1:01:40I think the four of us were were
1:01:41working. Yes, we're all police officers.
1:01:45I want to make sure I have your answer
1:01:47correctly.
1:01:48That Mark Fuhrman
1:01:50had the independent right to do any
1:01:52investigation he wanted at the
1:01:54Rockingham crime scene.
1:02:00Sustained. Rephrase the question.
1:02:04Was it your state of mind
1:02:06as one of the two lead detectives that
1:02:10Mark Fuhrman had the right
1:02:12based on the fact that he was a
1:02:14detective to do an independent
1:02:16investigation at Rockingham?
1:02:22Sustained. Rephrase the question.
1:02:24Perhaps, your honor, can
1:02:26Problem here is independent.
1:02:29Did Detective Fuhrman have the right to
1:02:31conduct an
1:02:32an investigation at Rockingham without
1:02:34your precise direction?
1:02:37Of course, he did. He's a Los Angeles
1:02:39police officer.
1:02:40And that's what he did, isn't it?
1:02:42Yes.
1:02:44Even though he had been removed from
1:02:46this case
1:02:48and told by you that the only thing he
1:02:50could do was at Bundy
1:02:53was to secure the scene and stay
1:02:56outside. Now, at Rockingham, he can do
1:02:58whatever he wants.
1:03:00Sustained.
1:03:02He's free to conduct an investigation at
1:03:03Rockingham. Is that correct?
1:03:06He's there to assist me in the
1:03:07investigation, yes.
1:03:09Did you hear his testimony, sir?
1:03:10Yes, I did.
1:03:11Did you hear him testify that uh while
1:03:14you guys were ringing the door, he
1:03:15decided just take a walk down
1:03:17Rockingham?
1:03:18Yes.
1:03:21Was that something that uh you asked him
1:03:23to do?
1:03:24No, but I don't have him on a leash,
1:03:26either.
1:03:27He's a capable man. He's capable of
1:03:30walking around and uh I don't follow him
1:03:32at all times.
1:03:33Isn't he there to help you?
1:03:35That was part of his uh part of his
1:03:37assistance at that point.
1:03:39He's just walking around?
1:03:42Taking Taking a little walk?
1:03:43Sure, why not? I did, too.
1:03:46I thought this was became uh
1:03:49a situation where you were really
1:03:50concerned about people's welfare.
1:03:53This was a situation I was concerned
1:03:55about people's welfare.
1:03:56Isn't it inconsistent if you're
1:03:57concerned about people's welfare that
1:03:59you'll just simply take a walk?
1:04:01Well, I'm not sure that he simply took a
1:04:03walk. Uh he walked down toward the uh
1:04:08Rockford gate
1:04:10or I'm sorry, Rockingham gate. Uh uh
1:04:15I don't know what his state of mind was
1:04:16when he was walking down through there.
1:04:20Did he call you over to uh the Bronco?
1:04:24He did at one point, yes.
1:04:26How did he do that?
1:04:29I was standing
1:04:30in the intersection or near the
1:04:32intersection of Ashford and Rockingham
1:04:35and I saw him
1:04:37walk a little way toward me from the
1:04:39vehicle and call, "Hey, Phil, come over
1:04:41here."
1:04:42What were you doing standing in the
1:04:43intersection?
1:04:44I was standing
1:04:46adjacent or close to Detective Phillips
1:04:48who was talking with one of the Westec
1:04:51people.
1:04:53And where was uh Detective Lange?
1:04:59Believe he was
1:05:03Believe he was between me and the
1:05:06intersection and the Ashford gate at
1:05:08that time.
1:05:10So, you had abandoned your attempts to
1:05:11try to get in?
1:05:13No, we were we were working with Westec
1:05:16uh trying to get additional information
1:05:19at that point.
1:05:19What information were you trying to get
1:05:21from Westec?
1:05:22If there were travel plans, if they knew
1:05:25whether there was anyone home,
1:05:27if they had uh access to the location.
1:05:31And you had to wait for somebody from
1:05:32Westec to come out. Couldn't you get
1:05:34that uh via your police radio and
1:05:36communication system?
1:05:40Could I have?
1:05:41Yeah.
1:05:44Well, I don't know why we were trying to
1:05:46secure that through the watch commander.
1:05:47A Westec unit drove up.
1:05:51Just just drove by the location and we
1:05:54stopped
1:05:54coincident- coincidentally, huh?
1:05:56Coincidentally, he drove by and we
1:05:57stopped him.
1:06:00Had the black and white arrived at that
1:06:02time?
1:06:11I believe it was in the same time frame
1:06:13that the black and white arrived, yes.
1:06:15When you drove up to Rockingham, did you
1:06:17notice the Bronco initially?
1:06:19I saw the car parked, yes.
1:06:21Did you see it parked unusually?
1:06:23It looked like it was hastily parked.
1:06:26Hastily parked?
1:06:27Yeah.
1:06:30Do you find that people who lock cars
1:06:32hastily park cars?
1:06:36That's subjective, too. I guess I guess
1:06:38that could be a yes or no either way.
1:06:41How far from the curb was the uh front
1:06:43wheel of the car?
1:06:44Of the vehicle.
1:06:45Yes, it's
1:06:47truck-like vehicle.
1:06:49Closer than the rear wheel.
1:06:51What's the difference? Couple inches?
1:06:54I don't know.
1:06:55Did you measure it?
1:06:56No.
1:06:56Did you ask anybody to measure it?
1:06:59To this day?
1:07:00No.
1:07:01From your photographs?
1:07:02No.
1:07:03Isn't it true, sir, that the curb area
1:07:06where there is concrete is 1 ft.
1:07:11That's a possibility.
1:07:12And that tires on the front and the back
1:07:14are both touching that area?
1:07:18As I recall from the picture, the tire
1:07:19in the back is sitting on the asphalt
1:07:21portion of the street.
1:07:22How close is it to the concrete?
1:07:24I I don't know.
1:07:28The fact that it was hastily parked, did
1:07:30that cause you any concern?
1:07:32Not at that point, no.
1:07:35Is it something you observed as a
1:07:36policeman?
1:07:39Something I I was driving the car, I
1:07:41would have either had to see the car or
1:07:44probably run into the car, yeah.
1:07:46Have you described that as the rear end
1:07:48jutting out more than the front?
1:07:50In any official reports?
1:07:52Probably.
1:07:54And you think that's a fair
1:07:56description?
1:07:57Well, I think the rear end was sticking
1:07:58out farther than the front end, yes.
1:08:02Did Mark Fuhrman have a flashlight when
1:08:04he was over at the Bronco?
1:08:07Mark Fuhrman carried a flashlight on his
1:08:09belt, yes.
1:08:10What kind of flashlight?
1:08:12Small Streamlight.
1:08:14What size?
1:08:16A small Streamlight that was carried in
1:08:19a little leather holder on his belt.
1:08:22And you had a more powerful flashlight?
1:08:24Yes.
1:08:26Did he talk to you when he asked you to
1:08:27come over?
1:08:29To the Bronco?
1:08:30He did when I got there, yeah.
1:08:32Did he signal to you over in any way?
1:08:34No, he called me over.
1:08:35What did he say?
1:08:36He said, "Come come here, I want to show
1:08:38you something."
1:08:39And what did he show you?
1:08:41He showed me a spot above the door
1:08:42handle.
1:08:43That's the first thing he showed you?
1:08:45Well, I had been there previously.
1:08:47Is that the first thing Mark Fuhrman
1:08:49showed you, yes or no?
1:08:50At the Bronco.
1:08:52At what point, sir?
1:08:55The time you were at Rockingham, is the
1:08:57first thing that Mark Fuhrman shows you
1:08:59a spot of blood?
1:09:01No.
1:09:02What's the first thing Mark Fuhrman
1:09:03shows you?
1:09:06I walked over there previously. Mark
1:09:08Fuhrman was there. I saw
1:09:11he shined a light and I shined my light
1:09:13into the back of the vehicle.
1:09:15And then I walked back toward the
1:09:17intersection and that's when he called
1:09:18me back.
1:09:19Did he show you into the back of the
1:09:22vehicle? Did he direct your attention to
1:09:25the back of the vehicle and tell you to
1:09:26look at something or is it your
1:09:28testimony that both of you
1:09:29simultaneously
1:09:31were at the back of the vehicle, both
1:09:33had your flashlights and both looked in
1:09:35and saw the same thing at the same time.
1:09:37Is that your testimony, sir?
1:09:38No, he directed me to look in the back
1:09:40of the vehicle.
1:09:41What did he do when What did he say to
1:09:42you when he came over?
1:09:57I
1:09:58I really don't recall a conversation
1:09:59other than he directed me to look in the
1:10:01back of the vehicle and uh
1:10:04as I walked up, I saw a piece of wood
1:10:05lying on the parkway.
1:10:18Just excuse me for one moment.
1:10:40And what did you see when you first
1:10:41looked into uh that vehicle?
1:10:44From the rear window.
1:10:46I saw package.
1:10:48I believe addressed to Orenthal
1:10:49Productions or something like that.
1:10:52Or something like that?
1:10:53Well, I I don't recall the actual the
1:10:56actual address. It was Orenthal
1:10:58Productions or O.J. Simpson Productions,
1:11:00something like that.
1:11:01Now, didn't you make a big point of
1:11:03saying it was Orenthal Productions and
1:11:04you knew that meant O.J. Simpson?
1:11:07Well, I knew I knew that meant O.J.
1:11:08Simpson, yes.
1:11:13And I take it you've you took that as
1:11:15part of the evidence in this case?
1:11:19Well, the entire car was impounded with
1:11:21it in it, yes.
1:11:22So, that package is in evidence?
1:11:24I I don't know that.
1:11:29You would assume that it's in evidence.
1:11:31Well, the entire car was impounded, yes.
1:11:33And everything in it should be in
1:11:34evidence then.
1:11:35Is that correct?
1:11:42Did you see anything else at that time
1:11:43in the back of the car?
1:11:44Yes.
1:11:45What did you see?
1:11:46A shovel and a piece of plastic. What
1:11:48appeared to be a folded-up piece of
1:11:49plastic and a white cloth.
1:11:52Let me show you, Detective Lang, in your
1:11:54report again.
1:11:55That was Detective Van Adder.
1:11:57I'm sorry.
1:11:58Detective Van Adder.
1:11:59I said Detective Lang and his report,
1:12:01I'm sorry.
1:12:01Oh, I'm sorry. All right.
1:12:02I I misheard you.
1:12:03He's Detective Van Adder.
1:12:04Yes, I know. I thought you said I
1:12:06thought you were addressing him
1:12:06Detective Lang.
1:12:07No, no, no.
1:12:08All right.
1:12:09That's Detective
1:12:11Yes, I recognize him.
1:12:13All right. I want you to I want to
1:12:15direct you to the report that you have
1:12:17talked about before.
1:12:19That is the follow-up report and ask you
1:12:21to tell us where in that report it
1:12:23indicates that you observed the shovel
1:12:26in the back of the Bronco.
1:12:29I think we've had this discussion
1:12:31previously. It doesn't.
1:12:33And uh
1:12:35You kind of say that like laughing. Is
1:12:37there something funny about it not being
1:12:39in there?
1:12:39Nothing at all, sir. It isn't in there.
1:12:41Is there anything funny about this
1:12:43examination?
1:12:44Not nothing whatsoever.
1:12:49Did you find any plastic? Did you
1:12:51indicate in your report there was any
1:12:53plastic in there?
1:12:54No.
1:12:56Those are important things for
1:12:58observations for a detailed report,
1:13:00aren't they?
1:13:03If they're important to the case, yes.
1:13:07In fact, you indicated in that report at
1:13:09that time Detective Furman showed you
1:13:11blood.
1:13:15That's what the report says, yes.
1:13:18That's not true, is it?
1:13:20Why was there twice? He showed me blood
1:13:21at one point, yes.
1:13:22But the report is not accurate
1:13:26and is not consistent with what you've
1:13:28just told us, is it?
1:13:29The report is an overview of the
1:13:31investigation. It's not a
1:13:34second-by-second account of what
1:13:36occurred.
1:13:37Well, whether it's second-by-second,
1:13:39there are crucial things that are not
1:13:40included in this report that you
1:13:42testified to.
1:13:43Is that correct?
1:13:44That's possible, yes.
1:13:45And you told us earlier that when you
1:13:47wrote this report, it was uh an accurate
1:13:50report and there were no errors or
1:13:51omissions in the report, did you not?
1:13:53Objection, your honor.
1:13:55Sustained.
1:14:10Did you ask Detective Phillips to
1:14:13look around that truck to see if he
1:14:15could find any evidence?
1:14:21Detective Phillips, no, I did not.
1:14:23Did you ask Detective Furman to look
1:14:24around that truck to see if he could
1:14:25find any evidence?
1:14:26No.
1:14:27Did you ask Detective Lang to look
1:14:29around that truck?
1:14:30No.
1:14:30Did you look around that truck?
1:14:32Yes.
1:14:33After you were directed by someone else.
1:14:36Well, I walked down there first and then
1:14:38was called over to the truck.
1:14:40So, what you're telling me is there are
1:14:41four detectives, two lead detectives,
1:14:43that are there and none of you
1:14:46examined the truck with the exception of
1:14:49Detective Mark Fuhrman. Is that correct?
1:14:52He was the first one that did, yes.
1:14:56And he's the one who discovered the
1:15:00blood
1:15:01drop on the door handle.
1:15:03That's correct, yes.
1:15:04Now, you heard him testify that there
1:15:06were blood smears on the bottom of the
1:15:07door, didn't you?
1:15:09yes.
1:15:10Did you see those?
1:15:12I did at a later time. I don't recall
1:15:14him showing them to me that night.
1:15:17You previously testified you didn't see
1:15:19them, did you?
1:15:21I saw a report that was done by the
1:15:23criminalist. I don't recall seeing them
1:15:25that that evening or that morning.
1:15:28In fact, you previously testified you
1:15:29didn't see any blood on the bottom of
1:15:31the Bronco, didn't you?
1:15:33That I didn't?
1:15:34Did not.
1:15:35I
1:15:36I don't recall seeing any blood on the
1:15:37bottom of the Bronco.
1:15:39And where in your report did you
1:15:40indicate that there was in addition to a
1:15:43spot on the
1:15:46door handle that there was blood on the
1:15:48bottom of the Bronco, sir?
1:15:52Where did I indicate that?
1:15:54Yes.
1:15:58Sustained. Rephrase the question.
1:16:00Did you indicate it in your report?
1:16:05I don't know. I would I would have to
1:16:07read the entire report to tell you that.
1:16:12Well, I don't want to interrupt the
1:16:13valuable jury time now. Maybe you can do
1:16:16that tonight and read that report and
1:16:17ask give us that answer tomorrow. We'll
1:16:20go on to something else.
1:16:21Objection. The witness is trying to
1:16:23Jurors to disregard the comment.
1:16:58The time sequence
1:17:00of arriving at Rockingham was at about
1:17:035:05.
1:17:06Between 5:05 and 5:10, yeah. Then
1:17:10You went to the front
1:17:11gate on Ashford and rang the bell for 10
1:17:14to 15 minutes.
1:17:16That's correct.
1:17:18That takes you to about 5:20 or 5:25.
1:17:22Approximately, yes.
1:17:24And
1:17:26at that point in time
1:17:30Detective Furman starts to walk away
1:17:33from your group.
1:17:36At what point in time?
1:17:37Well, I'm going to ask you, at what
1:17:39point in time does Detective Furman
1:17:40start to walk away from the group?
1:17:42Well, we were all moving around there.
1:17:44We We weren't standing in a real tight
1:17:45cluster. We were We were all moving
1:17:47around.
1:17:48Well, but he went down Rockingham.
1:17:52Yes, he did.
1:17:56At one point, I believe when we
1:17:58originally stopped the first Westec
1:18:00unit, I saw him walking down the street.
1:18:03What time was that?
1:18:07It would have probably been around 5:30
1:18:09in the morning.
1:18:115:25, 5:30.
1:18:12That he first walked towards the Bronco.
1:18:14That I saw him, yes.
1:18:15And the first time that you looked in
1:18:17the Bronco was what time?
1:18:19Just shortly after that, I walked down
1:18:20there.
1:18:21Give us an estimate.
1:18:235:25, 5:30.
1:18:26And then you came back.
1:18:28Then I walked back toward where the
1:18:30Westec unit was with Detective Phillips.
1:18:38And
1:18:39how long did you spend there?
1:18:41Short time. He made a phone call inside
1:18:43the residence and told me that he'd
1:18:45gotten a uh
1:18:47answer phone.
1:18:48And that's when you were trying to
1:18:49locate O.J. Simpson?
1:18:51Still trying to this entire time, yes.
1:18:54And why didn't you ask Westec for an
1:18:56emergency number for O.J.?
1:18:59Well, I think that was the purpose of us
1:19:01asking them.
1:19:02And didn't they have, in case of
1:19:03emergency
1:19:05to contact his secretary?
1:19:07I don't know that.
1:19:08Because you didn't ask, right?
1:19:10I didn't ask, no.
1:19:11And you didn't ask anyone to ask.
1:19:13I didn't even know that he had a
1:19:14secretary.
1:19:15And nobody thought of that question, did
1:19:16they?
1:19:17I don't think that was asked, not to my
1:19:18knowledge.
1:19:22And then you went back the second time
1:19:23to look at the Bronco?
1:19:24I was called back, yes.
1:19:25What time was that?
1:19:28Around 5:30.
1:19:34And how long did you spend at the Bronco
1:19:35at that time?
1:19:37Not very long, short time.
1:19:41We spoke.
1:19:50Maybe 5 minutes, I don't know.
1:19:52That takes you to 5:35.
1:19:54Approximately, yeah.
1:19:57And when you saw that little speck, I
1:19:59take it at that point in time you
1:20:02wanted to check the entire Bronco to see
1:20:04if there was any other blood
1:20:06or any other possible evidence, did you
1:20:08not?
1:20:10At that point
1:20:12I was becoming very concerned about the
1:20:15location.
1:20:18And uh I could see that the vehicle was
1:20:20locked.
1:20:21And my concern at that point was that
1:20:23maybe I had another crime scene or
1:20:25someone injured or hurt.
1:20:26How could you see the vehicle was
1:20:27locked?
1:20:29You could see the lock knobs on the
1:20:30door.
1:20:31What about the rear gate latch? Did you
1:20:34check that?
1:20:34No, I did not.
1:20:36So, you don't know if that was open or
1:20:37locked, did you?
1:20:38No, I don't.
1:20:40What was the difference whether the
1:20:41vehicle was locked or not?
1:20:43Well, I was
1:20:44want to get into it?
1:20:45No, not at that point.
1:20:48You had just come from a bloody crime
1:20:50scene.
1:20:51You were now at the home of somebody who
1:20:54had previously
1:20:55been involved in domestic violence
1:20:58situations. You see a shovel in the back
1:21:01and blood on the car and you do not want
1:21:02to look in that car. Is that your
1:21:04testimony, sir?
1:21:05No, my testimony is I was concerned with
1:21:07any possible occupants that may be at
1:21:09the home.
1:21:10You've already told us that you were
1:21:11concerned about O.J. Simpson's welfare
1:21:13when you saw that, right?
1:21:14O.J. Simpson and possibly a maid that
1:21:16was supposed to be there, yes.
1:21:19And so, you voiced that concern to the
1:21:21Westec people, didn't you, and say this
1:21:22is an emergency, we've got to find O.J.
1:21:24and the maid, didn't you?
1:21:27I believe that was related to him by
1:21:29Detective
1:21:30Phillips, yes.
1:21:30And you asked them to find emergency
1:21:32numbers so you could find O.J. because
1:21:34an now an emergency had developed, did
1:21:35you not?
1:21:37I didn't know.
1:21:38You asked other officers to do that,
1:21:39didn't you?
1:21:41I believe Phillips was doing that.
1:21:42Was doing that?
1:21:43Yeah.
1:21:44Do you have any information that he did
1:21:46do that?
1:21:47Phillips was talking with Westec. Uh
1:21:51I don't know that he asked him for
1:21:53emergency numbers. I I don't even know
1:21:54that they have to this day that they
1:21:56have an emergency number on
1:21:57You haven't checked that, have you?
1:21:58No, I have not.
1:22:00That wouldn't be something you'd want to
1:22:01know, is it?
1:22:05At this point, I I
1:22:07I don't think so.
1:22:09Your Honor, do can you just tell me how
1:22:11long you would like me to continue? I
1:22:13have a lot more material to cover.
1:22:15A lot more?
1:22:16Yes.
1:22:16About we just talked about two other
1:22:18subject matter areas,
1:22:19Yes, but it's going to take a while to
1:22:20get to those two subjects.
1:22:24Well, I I you go at least to the quarter
1:22:26quarter till.
1:22:27Thank you. give us the full afternoon
1:22:29session.
1:22:29Thank you. I appreciate that. You're all
1:22:30right. Thank you.
1:22:33I take it at that point in time you
1:22:35immediately called the command post and
1:22:37said we have a potential emergency
1:22:39situation here. We're going in.
1:22:41No, I didn't.
1:22:42Isn't that proper police procedure?
1:22:49That would depend on the situation.
1:22:51Well, you've previously testified under
1:22:53oath that you thought there might be
1:22:56uh suspects
1:22:58related to the murder of Nicole Brown
1:23:01Simpson at the O.J. Simpson residence,
1:23:03have you not?
1:23:04Well, I was not really concerned with
1:23:06suspects at that time. I was concerned
1:23:08with the welfare of the occupants of the
1:23:09home.
1:23:10My question was have you previously
1:23:11testified there may be suspects there?
1:23:13Well, there could have been suspects
1:23:15there. I didn't know what was there.
1:23:17My question was have you previously
1:23:18testified there were suspects there?
1:23:21Like I said, sir, there could have been
1:23:23suspects there. There could have been
1:23:24victims. I didn't know what was there.
1:23:27And it could have been a murder another
1:23:29murder scene. You've testified to that
1:23:30previously.
1:23:31Certainly could have, yes.
1:23:33And people could be dying there. You've
1:23:35heard uh testimony to that by other
1:23:38officers, have you not?
1:23:39Well, that was my feeling, too. That was
1:23:41one of the possibilities.
1:23:42People could be bleeding.
1:23:44Absolutely.
1:23:44You could have a hostage situation.
1:23:47That was a possibility.
1:23:49You could have a kidnapping.
1:23:56I don't know that that related to a
1:23:57kidnapping of
1:24:00any possible scenario is possible. It
1:24:02could have been anything. I didn't know
1:24:03what was there.
1:24:04No, I I'm asking about what you or
1:24:06others have previously testified could
1:24:09have been the situation of the regarding
1:24:12your state of mind when you were at
1:24:14Rockingham.
1:24:16Is that a question?
1:24:17Yes.
1:24:19My state of mind was I was concerned
1:24:21with the occupants of the home.
1:24:23I was concerned that I could have
1:24:25another crime scene.
1:24:27People could be injured.
1:24:29This could have been an extension of the
1:24:31of the murders that I had just left.
1:24:35There could be people down. There could
1:24:36be injured people. It could have been
1:24:38any scenario.
1:24:40So, this is where
1:24:42your adrenaline really starts to rush,
1:24:43isn't it?
1:24:46Yeah, I don't know that that's a fair
1:24:47statement with me. I I don't have big
1:24:50adrenaline rushes.
1:24:51No, you've been doing it long enough
1:24:53that
1:24:53Well, I don't even think it's that. I
1:24:54just
1:24:57I I don't have big adrenaline rushes.
1:25:00Must have been a pretty scary situation
1:25:01to go in that location not knowing
1:25:05uh what was there with your experiences,
1:25:06isn't that correct?
1:25:11Every situation you go into, you you
1:25:14have you have butterflies because you
1:25:16don't know what you're going into.
1:25:19And there are people who are specially
1:25:21trained for the situations you've just
1:25:23uh enumerated, aren't there?
1:25:27There's people specially trained for
1:25:28tactical situations, yes.
1:25:31Aren't there people specially trained
1:25:32for hostage situations?
1:25:35Tactical situations, yes.
1:25:37I don't know what that means, but
1:25:38hostage situations I know what that is.
1:25:40situation is a tactical situation.
1:25:42saying the same thing.
1:25:43Yeah.
1:25:44And aren't there people specially
1:25:46trained if somebody is dying or
1:25:47bleeding?
1:25:51How to uh save lives? You're not trained
1:25:53in that, are you?
1:25:55Well, I'm CPR certified.
1:25:57Are you Are you paramedic?
1:25:58No, no, no.
1:25:59I Excuse me, first aid certified. I'm
1:26:02sorry, I misspoke that.
1:26:04I think I to to take the time to call
1:26:08someone from another location to come
1:26:10and check that would be a
1:26:12dereliction of duty. I think it was our
1:26:14duty to go in there and look and see if
1:26:15there was something wrong.
1:26:16Well, you've already been out there for
1:26:1735 minutes and seem to be pretty casual
1:26:20about what was going on. Now, all of a
1:26:22sudden you don't have time to make a
1:26:23phone call with one of four officers to
1:26:26call for either a backup unit or call a
1:26:28command post and say, "Hey, I don't know
1:26:31what we have, but we better get some
1:26:33more support here. We better get some
1:26:34paramedics. We better get some emergency
1:26:37equipment. I really don't know what we
1:26:39have, but I'm telling you my instincts
1:26:41as a detective tell me it is serious."
1:26:44We called for a backup unit. We had a
1:26:46black and white vehicle there.
1:26:48Well, that was already there.
1:26:49We called for them.
1:26:52That was before you decided it was an
1:26:53emergency.
1:26:55No, that was part of the process. That
1:26:57was
1:26:58the
1:27:00emergency came back from a set of
1:27:01circumstances that didn't all occur at
1:27:04one time. That was a set of
1:27:06circumstances that occurred over a
1:27:08period of time.
1:27:09So, you had a patrol vehicle there.
1:27:11Yes, that's correct.
1:27:12Specially trained officers or not?
1:27:14Uniform police officers.
1:27:15How many?
1:27:16Two.
1:27:18And did you give them any direction at
1:27:20the time they arrived?
1:27:34I don't think I talked to them when they
1:27:35first arrived.
1:27:37I don't think I actually spoke to them.
1:27:38You called for them. It was an emergency
1:27:40situation. You had to come out, but you
1:27:42didn't tell them what to do?
1:27:45I think
1:27:46I think we're talking semantics. I think
1:27:49you're relating to a tactical situation.
1:27:51I'm talking about an
1:27:53an emergency situation. They're two
1:27:55different things.
1:27:57Well, let's say it was an emergency
1:27:58situation that you're referring to.
1:28:01In an emergency situation, you've called
1:28:04for a black and white backup. They come
1:28:06and rush to the location and you don't
1:28:08tell them what to do, what the emergency
1:28:10is?
1:28:14Again, I think I think we're talking
1:28:16semantics.
1:28:18I think what you're
1:28:19what you're relating to is a tactical
1:28:21situation where you know the situation
1:28:23that you have.
1:28:25And you could say that you have a
1:28:27tactical situation that's an emergency
1:28:30if you know you have a suspect
1:28:33or you know you have a hostage
1:28:36or you know for a fact that you have
1:28:38someone that's injured. We didn't know
1:28:40all these things. This was a situation
1:28:42that had to be determined.
1:28:45So, you don't believe in being prepared.
1:28:50I don't I don't understand I don't
1:28:52believe in being prepared. I think I
1:28:54think I go into every situation
1:28:56attempting to be prepared.
1:28:58So, at that point in time
1:29:00did you
1:29:02alone determine that it was time to jump
1:29:04over the wall?
1:29:05That was a decision that was made from
1:29:08speaking with my partner and the other
1:29:10two detectives.
1:29:11So, it was a joint decision by you, Mark
1:29:14Fuhrman, and Detective Phillips?
1:29:16Mainly myself and Detective Lange.
1:29:18Well, when you say mainly, did all of
1:29:19you discuss it or just the two of you
1:29:21discuss
1:29:21standing there talking. It was a
1:29:23decision that was left up to myself and
1:29:25Lange.
1:29:26And you both said, "Let's go in."
1:29:28Exactly.
1:29:30And you elected Mark Fuhrman because he
1:29:32was the youngest and the most athletic
1:29:34to climb the wall.
1:29:36That's part of the reason, yes.
1:29:39Did uh
1:29:42he have any protective gear on when he
1:29:44went over the wall?
1:29:45No, he did not.
1:29:46Did you have any protective gear on
1:29:47backing him up?
1:29:49No.
1:29:49Did any of the two other officers
1:29:51detectives there have protective gear
1:29:52on?
1:29:53Not to my knowledge.
1:29:54Did anybody pull out any shotguns to
1:29:56back them up in case you were going to
1:29:57encounter a
1:29:59suspect or suspects inside?
1:30:01No.
1:30:04Did you notify the two uniformed
1:30:06officers to come up and back you up that
1:30:08you're going in now.
1:30:10I think they were called to the gate to
1:30:11stand by the gate, yes.
1:30:13They were?
1:30:13Yes, I believe so.
1:30:15Where in your report did you indicate
1:30:16that?
1:30:17I don't I don't know that I did.
1:30:18Where in your previous testimony have
1:30:20you said that?
1:30:23I th- I said I think they were called to
1:30:26the
1:30:28Ashford gate
1:30:30or they came over there on their own
1:30:31when we went over the fence.
1:30:35Are you telling this jury that you did
1:30:37not sit down with two uniformed
1:30:39officers, tell them what the emergency
1:30:41was, and give them instructions to cover
1:30:43your back because you four guys are
1:30:45going in?
1:30:46They were told we were going in.
1:30:48Did you tell them what to do?
1:30:50To stand by the gate.
1:30:51Just to stand there?
1:30:52Yeah.
1:30:53Did you tell them to get shotguns, get
1:30:55ready, this is what we've got, guys,
1:30:57this is a potential emergency?
1:31:00You never said that, did you?
1:31:02No, again, Mr. Shapiro, I think you're I
1:31:05think you're confusing an emergency
1:31:06situation with a tactical situation. If
1:31:09I would have had
1:31:11a tactical situation and knew that I had
1:31:14a suspect or knew that I had a hostage
1:31:17or knew that I had a murder suspect in
1:31:20there, it would have been handled
1:31:20totally different.
1:31:22This was a situation where I was worried
1:31:24that something had occurred there
1:31:26possibly like had occurred at Bundy.
1:31:28So now you're concerned with the health
1:31:31and welfare of O.J. Simpson and the
1:31:33maid, and you're going in to say,
1:31:35"Where's O.J. and where's the maid?"
1:31:37Right?
1:31:38Where is anybody that may be at that
1:31:40location.
1:31:41Well, you didn't know who was expected
1:31:42to be there, did you?
1:31:43I had no idea, no.
1:31:44So
1:31:45you didn't know what you were looking
1:31:46for, is that your testimony?
1:31:48I didn't know what it what if anything
1:31:50had occurred there, that's why
1:31:51know what you were doing there, did you?
1:31:53Yes, I did.
1:31:53What were you doing there?
1:31:55I was I went there originally to make a
1:31:58notification
1:32:00to meet Mr. Simpson.
1:32:02The two detectives were assisting me.
1:32:05Once I got there, the situation changed
1:32:08with the information we we had received
1:32:10and the evidence that we saw.
1:32:19And now you're going in to look for
1:32:20people.
1:32:22That's correct.
1:32:24You go to the front door and ring the
1:32:26front doorbell.
1:32:27Yes.
1:32:28You get no response.
1:32:30That's correct.
1:32:31Do you force entry?
1:32:32No.
1:32:32Why not?
1:32:35Because at that point I didn't think it
1:32:37was appropriate.
1:32:38Wait, you were very concerned at that
1:32:40point in time, weren't you?
1:32:43Yes, we were making a we were making
1:32:45arrangements for a possible forced entry
1:32:47of the place.
1:32:50Where have you testified to that
1:32:51previously? You didn't tell the grand
1:32:53jury that, did you?
1:32:54Judge, sustained.
1:32:57Where in your reports did you indicate
1:32:58that you were making arrangements for a
1:33:00forced entry, sir?
1:33:02I don't believe it's in the reports.
1:33:04Who did you notify at police
1:33:06headquarters or communications that you
1:33:08were preparing a forced entry?
1:33:10No one.
1:33:14What preparations did you make for a
1:33:15forced entry?
1:33:18Detective Phillips contacted the watch
1:33:20commander and asked him to send a Westec
1:33:22unit back to the location that we may
1:33:24have to make forced entry into the
1:33:25location.
1:33:27So, for an emergency situation like
1:33:29this, now you're going to have the
1:33:31security of Westec going in with you. Is
1:33:33that your testimony?
1:33:35Well, we had at that point we had six
1:33:37police officers there, sir.
1:33:39Well, you had 25 standing around a
1:33:40murder scene, didn't you?
1:33:42Yeah, that's correct.
1:33:44Did you call any of them over?
1:33:46No.
1:33:47They were only 5 minutes away, weren't
1:33:49they?
1:33:49That's correct.
1:33:54When you went in, did you start making
1:33:56some noise to try to arouse the
1:33:58occupants?
1:34:00Yes, we were talking. We were knocking
1:34:02on doors.
1:34:02Were you yelling?
1:34:05No.
1:34:07Were you making your presence known?
1:34:09Well, I think our presence would have
1:34:11been known. We had flashlights, we were
1:34:12talking, we were knocking on doors, we
1:34:14were moving around the grounds.
1:34:16You were talking to each other, weren't
1:34:17you?
1:34:17That's correct.
1:34:18knocking, OJ, are you here? Is there any
1:34:21problem? Are you okay? Were you doing
1:34:22those things?
1:34:23No.
1:34:26Did you decide where to go? Were four
1:34:29officers coming in, virtually
1:34:31unprotected,
1:34:33are going to walk around this enormous
1:34:35estate
1:34:36in the darkness? Did you make any plan
1:34:38as to how you were going to protect
1:34:39yourselves?
1:34:41That's part of our job to do things like
1:34:43that. The protection is probably by
1:34:45numbers.
1:34:48There was no set plan.
1:34:49So, you didn't say, you know, one guy
1:34:50will go to this side and I'll back him
1:34:52up and you and your partner go here,
1:34:54we'll back you. Yeah, but just okay,
1:34:56guys, let's see what we can find. You
1:34:58guys started walking around.
1:35:00I never had the feeling
1:35:01that that I was in a dangerous situation
1:35:04at any point. I felt that I may have an
1:35:06emergency situation, but I never felt a
1:35:08personal danger
1:35:10at that location.
1:35:16Did you
1:35:18want to move quickly?
1:35:24I don't know that that's true. I was
1:35:25trying to look the grounds over to see
1:35:27if I could see anything on the grounds
1:35:29as I was moving.
1:35:30Did you tell everybody, let's check the
1:35:32grounds first? Was Was that your plan?
1:35:35Well, I think that's I think that's just
1:35:37typical police work. As you're moving,
1:35:39you're you're looking. I was shining my
1:35:41light under the trees and everything to
1:35:43see if I could see anything.
1:35:44All right. Well, first of all, when you
1:35:45come in, right to the right, you see a
1:35:47playhouse.
1:35:49Is that correct?
1:35:50Yes.
1:35:51And you've been inside that playhouse,
1:35:52haven't you?
1:35:56I've been beside of it. I don't know
1:35:58that I was inside.
1:35:59seen people inside it? Is it big enough
1:36:01for somebody to walk into?
1:36:02Yes.
1:36:03I take it that's the first place where
1:36:05you'd want to look inside that playhouse
1:36:07to see if there was any problem.
1:36:09Is that correct?
1:36:10We were looking all over the grounds.
1:36:12So, you went in the playhouse, is that
1:36:14correct?
1:36:14No, I didn't.
1:36:15Did you open the door of the playhouse?
1:36:17No.
1:36:18Did you knock on the playhouse?
1:36:19No.
1:36:21Did you just simply ignore the
1:36:22playhouse?
1:36:23The main concern was the residence at
1:36:25that point.
1:36:27And all four of you went to the front
1:36:29door of the residence together?
1:36:30That's correct.
1:36:33How long did you stay at the front door?
1:36:39Two or three minutes, something like
1:36:41that.
1:36:41Ringing the bell?
1:36:42Ringing the bell, knocking on the door,
1:36:43yeah.
1:36:44But not yelling or shouting or asking
1:36:46for anyone inside.
1:36:47No.
1:36:50And then where did you go?
1:36:52Myself personally?
1:36:53Yeah, you.
1:36:55I walked back out to the driveway and
1:36:57walked
1:36:58north to the east-west walkway that
1:37:00walks along the north side of the house.
1:37:03Shining your flashlight, looking in the
1:37:04bushes, looking in the shrubbery?
1:37:06That's correct.
1:37:07Was it dark back there?
1:37:08Yeah, it was dark.
1:37:10Was that
1:37:11kind of unnerving for you?
1:37:13No.
1:37:14Not knowing what you had back there?
1:37:16I
1:37:18I think I testified I didn't feel any
1:37:20personal danger at any time that night.
1:37:24So, there'd be no need at any time for
1:37:25you ever to draw a gun at that location,
1:37:27would there?
1:37:28I never felt that need, no.
1:37:35Did you tell anybody to go knock on any
1:37:37other doors?
1:37:39Was there any instruction given by you
1:37:41or Detective Lang as the lead detective
1:37:42there?
1:37:49What that a question? Was there any
1:37:51instruction?
1:37:51Right.
1:37:54No, I think we were working as a group.
1:38:01Kind of improvising as you went along.
1:38:04Looking Looking the grounds over and
1:38:05looking for people, yes.
1:38:08How long did you spend looking in the
1:38:09grounds looking for people?
1:38:12Well, this happened until uh
1:38:16This happened the entire time we were
1:38:17there. When I was outside, I was looking
1:38:19around.
1:38:20How long were you outside looking for
1:38:22people?
1:38:26I don't know exactly. That's That's a
1:38:28We walked around the side of the house
1:38:30to the back.
1:38:32I was shining my light. Maybe Maybe 5 or
1:38:3410 minutes total. I looked the grounds
1:38:37over.
1:38:38Was that enough time to look everywhere
1:38:39in those grounds?
1:38:42Well, at some point there, everybody
1:38:45that was supposed to be on the location
1:38:46had been accounted for, and that's when
1:38:48I stopped looking around.
1:38:49No, but you were looking for people who
1:38:51might be injured.
1:38:53Again, at a point, people that were
1:38:56supposed to be there were accounted for,
1:38:57and that's when I stopped looking
1:38:59around.
1:38:59When was O.J. Simpson accounted for?
1:39:01What time?
1:39:02After 6:00 in the morning.
1:39:04What time was he accounted for, sir?
1:39:06I don't know what time the phone call
1:39:07was made.
1:39:08You don't have any records regarding
1:39:10what time the phone call was made?
1:39:11Yeah, there are phone records, yes.
1:39:13You haven't looked at those?
1:39:14No, I had I haven't seen them in front
1:39:16of me.
1:39:17You don't think that's an important
1:39:19aspect of this case?
1:39:20I can look at the phone record and tell
1:39:21you exactly what time the phone call was
1:39:23made.
1:39:24You didn't keep any records regarding
1:39:26what time you did anything at the
1:39:28Rockingham location, did you?
1:39:33Keep any records as to time Time
1:39:35anything happened at Rockingham.
1:39:37Oh, that's not true.
1:39:39You did keep such records?
1:39:41There's a There's a search warrant that
1:39:42indicates items that were found there,
1:39:44yes.
1:39:44No. Did you keep any records as to what
1:39:47time you did things at the Rockingham
1:39:51location? What time you arrived, what
1:39:53time you went to the Bronco, what time
1:39:54you did everything you have testified
1:39:56to? Are there any such records, sir?
1:39:59Other than phone records, no.
1:40:03And isn't that part of good record
1:40:05keeping to make sure that the
1:40:06chronological record is in order for all
1:40:09important aspects of this case?
1:40:11That's part of record keeping, yes.
1:40:14This is a good place to stop, Your
1:40:15Honor.
1:40:16Yeah.
1:40:18All right, ladies and gentlemen, we're
1:40:18going to take our recess for the
1:40:19afternoon session. Please remember my
1:40:21admonitions to you. Don't discuss the
1:40:23case amongst yourselves. Don't form any
1:40:24opinions about the case. Don't conduct
1:40:26any deliberations
1:40:27until the matter has been submitted to
1:40:29you. Do not allow anybody to communicate
1:40:31with you.
1:40:32Uh Detective Vinater, you may step down.
1:40:34You're ordered to return at 9:00
1:40:36tomorrow morning.
1:40:38Uh we will stand in recess as far as the
1:40:40jury is concerned until 9:00 tomorrow
1:40:43morning.
1:40:44And I'd like to see counsel on the
1:40:46discovery matters after a short recess.
1:40:49All right, that's your order. Thank you,
1:40:50counsel.

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of OJ Simpson Trial - March 20th, 1995 - Part 2 (Last part) by OJ Trial Uncut, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 14,286 words across 2,753 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to translate the transcript into 100+ languages.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, translation to 100+ languages, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.