NSA Surveillance Whistleblower Interview Edward Snowden — Transcript

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9. 0:20bad
10. 0:30uh my name is Ed Snowden I'm uh 29 years
11. 0:33old I work for Booze Allen Hamilton as
12. 0:36an infrastructure analyst for NSA uh in
13. 0:41Hawaii what are some of the positions
14. 0:43that you held previously within the
15. 0:45intelligence Community uh I've been a
16. 0:47systems engineer systems administrator
17. 0:50uh senior advisor uh for the uh Central
18. 0:55Intelligence Agency Solutions consultant
19. 0:58and a uh telecomunication Information
20. 1:00Systems officer one of the things people
21. 1:03are going to be most interested in in in
22. 1:06trying to understand what who you are
23. 1:08and what you're thinking is there came
24. 1:11some point in time when you crossed this
25. 1:13line of thinking about being a
26. 1:16whistleblower um to making the choice to
27. 1:18actually become a whistleblower walk
28. 1:21people through that decision making
29. 1:25process uh when you're in positions of
30. 1:28of privileged access like a a systems
31. 1:30administrator for these sort of
32. 1:32intelligence Community agencies you're
33. 1:34exposed to a lot more information on a
34. 1:36broader scale than the average employee
35. 1:39and because of that you see things that
36. 1:42uh may be disturbing but uh over the
37. 1:45course of a normal person's career you'd
38. 1:46only see one or two of these instances
39. 1:49uh when you see everything you see them
40. 1:51on a more frequent basis and you
41. 1:54recognize that some of these things are
42. 1:55actually abuses and when you talk to
43. 1:57people about them uh in a place like
44. 2:00this where this is the the normal state
45. 2:03of business people tend not to take them
46. 2:05very seriously and you know move on from
47. 2:08them but over time that awareness of
48. 2:10wrongdoing sort of builds up and you
49. 2:13feel compelled to talk about it and the
50. 2:14more you talk about it the more you're
51. 2:16ignored the more you're told it's not a
52. 2:17problem until eventually you realize
53. 2:20that uh these things need to be
54. 2:22determined by the public not by somebody
55. 2:24who was simply hired by the government
56. 2:26talk a little bit about how the American
57. 2:28surveillance State actually fun F does
58. 2:31it Target the actions of
59. 2:33Americans uh NSA and the intelligence
60. 2:36community in general uh is focused on
61. 2:39getting intelligence wherever it can by
62. 2:41any means possible that it believes on
63. 2:44the grounds of sort of a
64. 2:45self-certification that they serve the
65. 2:47national interest uh originally we saw
66. 2:50that uh Focus very narrowly tailored as
67. 2:54foreign intelligence gathered overseas
68. 2:56now increasingly we see that it's
69. 2:59happening domestically and to do that
70. 3:02they uh the NSA specifically targets the
71. 3:05communications of everyone it ingests
72. 3:08them by default it collects them in its
73. 3:10system and it filters them and it
74. 3:12analyzes them and it measures them and
75. 3:13it stores them for periods of time
76. 3:16simply because that's the easiest most
77. 3:18efficient and most valuable way to
78. 3:21achieve these ends so while they may uh
79. 3:25be intending to uh Target someone
80. 3:28associated with a foreign government or
81. 3:30someone that they suspect of terrorism
82. 3:32they're collecting your Communications
83. 3:34to do so any Analyst at any time can
84. 3:36Target anyone uh any selector anywhere
85. 3:40where those uh Communications will be
86. 3:42picked up depends on the range of the
87. 3:44sensor networks and the authorities that
88. 3:46that analyst is empowered with not all
89. 3:48analysts have the ability to Target
90. 3:50everything but I sitting my desk uh
91. 3:53certainly had the authorities to to
92. 3:54wiretap anyone from you or your
93. 3:57accountant to a federal judge to even
94. 3:59the president if I had a personal email
95. 4:01one of the extraordinary Parts about
96. 4:04this episode is that usually
97. 4:06whistleblowers do what they do
98. 4:08anonymously and take steps to remain
99. 4:10anonymous for as long as they can which
100. 4:12they hope often is forever you on the
101. 4:15other hand have decided to do the
102. 4:16opposite which is to declare yourself
103. 4:19openly as the person behind these
104. 4:20disclosures why did you choose to do
105. 4:23that I I think that the public has owed
106. 4:25an explanation of the motivations behind
107. 4:27the people who make these disclosures
108. 4:29that that are outside of the democratic
109. 4:31model when you are subverting the power
110. 4:34of government that that's a
111. 4:36fundamentally dangerous thing to
112. 4:38democracy and if you do that in secret
113. 4:41consistently you know as the government
114. 4:43does uh when it wants to benefit from a
115. 4:46secret action that it took uh it'll kind
116. 4:48of give it its officials a mandate to go
117. 4:50hey you know tell the Press about this
118. 4:52thing and that thing so the public is on
119. 4:54our side but they rarely if ever do that
120. 4:56when an abuse occurs that falls to uh
121. 4:59idual citizens but they're typically
122. 5:02maligned you know it becomes a thing of
123. 5:04these people are against the country
124. 5:06they're against the government but I'm
125. 5:08not I'm I'm no different from anybody
126. 5:10else I don't have special skills uh I'm
127. 5:15just another guy who sits there dayto
128. 5:17day in the office watches what happening
129. 5:19what's happening and goes this is
130. 5:21something that's not our place to decide
131. 5:24the public needs to decide whether these
132. 5:26programs and policies are right or wrong
133. 5:28and I'm willing to go on the record to
134. 5:30defend the authenticity of them and say
135. 5:33I didn't change these I didn't modify
136. 5:35the story this is the truth this is
137. 5:37what's happening you should decide
138. 5:39whether we need to be doing this have
139. 5:41you given thought to what it is that the
140. 5:43US government's response to your conduct
141. 5:47is in terms of what they might say about
142. 5:49you how they might try to depict you
143. 5:51what they might try to do to you uh yeah
144. 5:54I I could be you know rendered by the
145. 5:56CIA I I could have people come after me
146. 5:59or any of their their third party
147. 6:00Partners uh you know they they work
148. 6:02closely with a number of other nations
149. 6:04uh or you know they could pay off the
150. 6:06Triads or you know any any of their
151. 6:08agents or assets uh We've we've got a
152. 6:10CIA station just up the road in the
153. 6:12consulate here in Hong Kong and I'm sure
154. 6:15they're going to be uh very busy for the
155. 6:17next week um and that's that's a fear
156. 6:20I'll live under for the rest of my life
157. 6:22however long that happens to be you you
158. 6:24can't come forward against the world's
159. 6:26most powerful intelligence agencies and
160. 6:30uh be completely free from risk because
161. 6:32they're such powerful adversaries that
162. 6:34that no one can meaningfully oppose them
163. 6:37um if they want to get you they'll get
164. 6:39you in time but at the same time you
165. 6:42have to make a determination about what
166. 6:44it is that's important to you and if
167. 6:46living uh living UNF freely but
168. 6:50comfortably is something you're willing
169. 6:52to accept and I think many of us are
170. 6:53it's it's the human
171. 6:55nature uh you can get up every day you
172. 6:58can go to work you can collect your your
173. 7:00large paycheck for relatively little
174. 7:03work uh against the public interest and
175. 7:06go to sleep at night after watching uh
176. 7:08your shows
177. 7:09but if you realize that that's the world
178. 7:12that you helped create and it's going to
179. 7:14get worse with the Next Generation and
180. 7:15the Next Generation who extend the
181. 7:17capabilities of this sort of
182. 7:18architecture of
183. 7:20Oppression uh you realize that you might
184. 7:22be willing to accept any risk and it
185. 7:24doesn't matter what the outcome is so
186. 7:26long as the public gets to make their
187. 7:27own decisions about how that's applied
188. 7:30why should people care about
189. 7:31surveillance because even if you're not
190. 7:33doing anything wrong you're being
191. 7:35watched and recorded and the the storage
192. 7:37capability of these systems increases
193. 7:40every year consistently by orders of
194. 7:44magnitude uh to where it's getting to
195. 7:45the point you don't have to have done
196. 7:48anything wrong you simply have to
197. 7:50eventually fall under suspicion from
198. 7:51somebody even by a wrong call and then
199. 7:54they can use the system to go back in
200. 7:56time and scrutinize every decision
201. 7:58you've ever made
202. 8:00every friend you've ever discussed
203. 8:01something with and attack you on that
204. 8:05basis to sort of derive suspicion from
205. 8:08an innocent life and paint anyone in the
206. 8:11context of a wrongdoer we are currently
207. 8:15sitting in a room in in Hong Kong which
208. 8:17is where we are because you've traveled
209. 8:19here talk a little bit about why it is
210. 8:22that you came here and specifically
211. 8:26there are going to be people who will
212. 8:27speculate um that what really intend to
213. 8:30do is to defect to the country that many
214. 8:33see as the number one rival of the
215. 8:34United States which is China and that
216. 8:37way you're really doing is essentially
217. 8:39seeking to Aid an enemy of the United
218. 8:42States with which you intend to um seek
219. 8:45Asylum can you talk a little bit about
220. 8:47that sure so there there's a couple
221. 8:50assertions in in those arguments um that
222. 8:53that are sort of embedded in the the
223. 8:55questioning of the choice of Hong Kong
224. 8:58uh the first is that China is an enemy
225. 9:01of the United States it it's not I mean
226. 9:03there there are conflicts between the
227. 9:05United States government and the Chinese
228. 9:07uh PRC government but the the peoples
229. 9:10inherently you know we we don't care we
230. 9:12trade with each other freely you know
231. 9:14we're not at War we're not uh in armed
232. 9:16conflict and we're not trying to be
233. 9:18we're we're the largest trading partners
234. 9:19out there for each other um additionally
235. 9:23Hong Kong has a strong tradition of free
236. 9:27speech uh people think oh China Great
237. 9:29Fire well mainland China does have
238. 9:31significant restrictions on Free Speech
239. 9:34but uh the Hong Kong the people of Hong
240. 9:37Kong uh have a long tradition of
241. 9:39protesting in the streets of making
242. 9:40their views known the internet is not
243. 9:42filtered here um no more so than any
244. 9:46other Western Government and I believe
245. 9:48that the uh Hong Kong government is
246. 9:51actually independent uh in relation to a
247. 9:54lot of other leading Western
248. 9:56governments if your motive had been to
249. 9:59harm the United States and help its
250. 10:01enemies or if your motive had been
251. 10:03personal material gain were there things
252. 10:04that you could have done with these
253. 10:06documents um to advance those goals that
254. 10:08you didn't end up doing absolutely I
255. 10:11mean anybody in the positions of access
256. 10:13with a te technical uh capabilities that
257. 10:16I had could you know suck out Secrets
258. 10:19pass them on the open market to Russia
259. 10:20you know they always have an open door
260. 10:22as we do
261. 10:24um I had access to you know the the full
262. 10:27rosters of everyone working at the NS
263. 10:29say the entire intelligence Community uh
264. 10:31and undercover assets all around the
265. 10:33world uh the locations of every station
266. 10:36we have what their missions are and so
267. 10:38forth uh if I had just wanted to harm
268. 10:41the US you know
269. 10:43that you could shut down the the
270. 10:45surveillance system in an
271. 10:47afternoon um but that's not my intention
272. 10:49and I I think for anyone um making that
273. 10:52argument they need to think if they were
274. 10:54in my position uh and you know you live
275. 10:56a privileged life you you're living in
276. 10:58Hawaii in paradise and making a ton of
277. 11:01money what would it take to make you
278. 11:04leave everything
279. 11:06behind the the greatest fear that I have
280. 11:09regarding um the outcome uh for America
281. 11:15of these disclosures is that nothing
282. 11:16will change um people will see in the
283. 11:19media uh all of these disclosures
284. 11:22they'll know the length that the the
285. 11:25government is going to Grant themselves
286. 11:27Powers unilateral
287. 11:30um to create greater control over
288. 11:33American society and Global Society but
289. 11:37they they won't be willing to take the
290. 11:40risks necessarily to stand up and fight
291. 11:44to change things to force their
292. 11:47representatives to actually take a stand
293. 11:50in their
294. 11:51interests uh and the months ahead the
295. 11:54the years ahead it's only going to get
296. 11:56worse until eventually there will be a
297. 11:59time where uh policies will change
298. 12:03because the only thing that restricts
299. 12:05the activities of the surveillance State
300. 12:07our policy uh even our agreements with
301. 12:09with other Sovereign governments we
302. 12:11consider that to be uh a stipulation of
303. 12:15policy rather than a stipulation of Law
304. 12:17and because of that a new leader will be
305. 12:20elected they'll flip the switch uh say
306. 12:23that
307. 12:25um because of the crisis because of the
308. 12:28danger that we face in the world you
309. 12:30know some some new and unpredicted
310. 12:32threat we need more Authority we need
311. 12:35more power and there will be nothing the
312. 12:36people can do at that point to oppose it
313. 12:39uh and it'll be TurnKey tyranny