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Not Everything Is About Race | Coleman Hughes — Transcript

by Ben Shapiro · 12,084 words · 1,731 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00though we have different experiences we
0:02do live in an objective reality there is
0:05such a thing as truth there is such a
0:07thing as facts and those facts can't
0:09depend on the fact that you're you and
0:11I'm me so we have to be able to have a
0:14conversation where we can disagree with
0:16each other where no one by default
0:19trumps anyone else just by virtue of
0:21your skin color or your
0:23identity and um and that's the only way
0:26that we can actually have a
0:28conversation today we welcome Coleman
0:30Hughes a writer podcaster and opinion
0:32columnist known for his work in the
0:33fields of race politics and culture
0:35Hughes has quickly become one of the
0:37most influential young thinkers in
0:38America earning him widespread
0:40recognition including being names to
0:41forbes's 30 under 30 list in the media
0:43category in 2021 former fellow at the
0:46Manhattan Institute and a contributing
0:47editor at City Journal his writings have
0:49been featured in Publications ranging
0:51from The New York Times to the Wall
0:52Street Journal to The Spectator and
0:53National Review in 2019 Hughes testified
0:56before the United States Congress during
0:58a hearing on reparations where he
0:59eloquent argued against the idea citing
1:01concerns about its potential
1:02divisiveness and ineffectiveness this
1:04testimony further cemented his position
1:06as a significant voice in the National
1:08conversation on race in February 2024
1:11Hughes published his latest book the end
1:12of race politics Arguments for a
1:14colorblind America in this book Hughes
1:16advocates for a colorblind approach to
1:18politics and culture challenging
1:20contemporary anti-racist movements that
1:22he believes perpetuate Division and
1:24resentment he argues that we need to get
1:26out of the business of racial
1:27classification and rethink the longrun
1:29consequences of of race thinking and
1:30race-based policy today we cover a wide
1:33range of topics including Hugh's viral
1:35appearance on The View where he
1:36discussed race relations in America and
1:37the failures of Marxism when applied to
1:39race we also delve into the history of
1:41race-based riots implications of the
1:43George Floyd case he's his own
1:45experiences with racism in his life and
1:47so much more Coleman hughes's commitment
1:49to fostering dialogue and his Fearless
1:50approach to contentious issues make him
1:52a truly compelling figure in today's
1:54intellectual landscape plus he's an
1:56excellent guest on today's Sunday
1:57special
2:00[Music]
2:05[Music]
2:08Coleman thanks so much for joining us
2:09really appreciate the time my pleasure
2:11so why don't we start where everybody's
2:12been starting with you I'm sure the last
2:14couple of weeks and that is that
2:16interview on The View which has always
2:18been my lifelong dream I've been begging
2:19to go on The View for legitimately years
2:21at this point and they will never have
2:22me on to my shagrin and dismay but they
2:25did have you on at which point Sunny
2:27host declared that you were a charlatan
2:29and apparent a republican operative
2:31which seems kind of shocking since my
2:33understanding is that you have not voted
2:34Republican in any presidential election
2:37thus far why don't you take us through
2:38what actually that experience was like
2:40in person yeah so the view is not my
2:44audience uh it's it's I was excited to
2:47be able to reach a kind of listener that
2:49would never normally listen to my
2:50podcast or or buy my book so I was
2:52excited to go on and one of their
2:54producers warned me that Sunny hustin
2:56was going to come after me uh rather
2:59Hardon I I didn't know who she was so I
3:03had no expectations um I just had you
3:06know the typical level of anxiety going
3:08into a major TV appearance and uh what
3:12happened is that I had a pretty normal
3:14exchange with whoopy Goldberg we
3:15disagreed respectfully but Sunny host
3:19you know she claimed to have read my
3:20book twice which was clearly not true
3:22because she had no idea what was in the
3:24book obviously and she had an agenda uh
3:29to to come after me from a particular
3:31angle that she didn't realize wasn't
3:33going to land right she she she thought
3:35this was going to be some kind of
3:35knockdown blow to say that I've been
3:37co-opted by the right as if you know
3:40there's you know Koch brothers money
3:42being funneled into my bank account to
3:43get me to say what I'm saying whereas
3:45the truth is that I just believe what
3:47I'm saying uh and and I've done a lot of
3:49research on this topic I feel strongly
3:50about it you know in terms of politics I
3:54consider myself a moderate and an
3:55independent I've only voted twice
3:57because I'm I'm 28 years old uh both
3:59times for Democrats but I'm open to
4:01voting for republicans and so her
4:04critique had nowhere to land and the
4:06reason I think it went viral um and this
4:08is what I've gathered from people you
4:10know coming up to me telling me you know
4:13in some cases on the street coming up to
4:14me saying I saw you on the view is that
4:17so often on daytime television on cable
4:20news you see performative energy meeting
4:23performative energy it's basically all
4:26theater and you rarely see someone come
4:30with a kind of performative canned
4:32attack but the other person just respond
4:36kind of calmly with facts um and that's
4:40what I did there and I think that was so
4:42jarring to people that the moment went
4:44viral so I mean let's talk about that on
4:46a personal emotional level so obviously
4:48I've been in situations very similar
4:49where I'm under attack from you know
4:51people who disagree with me and it is
4:53very difficult to stay emotionally sort
4:57of calm and Placid when you're being
4:59accused of things that obviously are
5:01untrue so how how did you handle that
5:03was that difficult or was it more just
5:04puzzlement as to what was going on no I
5:07I guess uh it ended up really well
5:09obviously I I'm a normal human being I
5:11have anxiety I have you know my my heart
5:14rate uh gets up in moments like that but
5:18really the way I try to approach it is
5:20to actually listen to what she's saying
5:23right even someone who hates you even
5:25someone who is is you know a clown and
5:28someone who's bad faith they might make
5:29a good point so I always just try to
5:31listen to people actually understand
5:33what they're saying and then respond to
5:36it on the merits and if you do that and
5:38if you're uh very researched and very
5:41prepared there's really not much to be
5:43afraid of so to switch to the topic of
5:46your book which obviously is related to
5:47the interview one of the reasons I think
5:49that that Sunny host assumed that you
5:51were a member of the right is because
5:52you're making an argument that very
5:54often is associated with the right
5:55mainly because the left has abandoned
5:57what used to be its own argument with
5:59regard to race that the left argument
6:01for most of my childhood actually and
6:03most of my teenage years with regard to
6:04race was the old MLK argument which is
6:06that you were supposed to see people as
6:08individuals without reference primarily
6:11to their racial group that that was that
6:14was a piece of information that
6:15typically could only be used for ill and
6:18was very rarely used for good and then
6:20it seems like the left has shifted away
6:22from that MLK message and now has
6:24embraced much more racial Politics as a
6:27mechanism for electoral and and
6:29political success so why don't you talk
6:31a little bit about that why why do you
6:32think that first of all what is the
6:34argument that you're making and why do
6:36you think it is that this has now become
6:37more associated with quote unquote the
6:38right even though it was never
6:39historically a right-wing argument yeah
6:42my childhood mirrored yours in that
6:43sense I grew up in a liberal town I
6:45think I met one Republican my whole life
6:48as a kid and everyone took for granted
6:51that Martin Luther King's famous speech
6:53and his now cliched phrase judge people
6:57by the content of their characters not
6:59the over their skin everyone took that
7:01for granted as the
7:03obvious way to think about race it was a
7:06liberal position it was associated with
7:08the Civil Rights
7:09Movement however there's always been a
7:12fringe among academics Elite
7:15intellectuals the critical race Theory
7:17Fringe which since the 70s and 80s has
7:21said that actually the Civil Rights
7:23Movement was wrong they didn't go far
7:25enough and we have to think about race
7:27all the time American society is
7:29fundamentally racist the institutions
7:31are shot through with racism so we have
7:34to burn it all down and build it back up
7:36again that
7:38movement Kimberly Kenra is one of the
7:40big uh leaders of that movement and the
7:44whole movement defined itself in
7:45opposition to color blindness and what
7:47they did was very clever they wrote a
7:49completely false history of color
7:51blindness they said that color blindness
7:53was invented by conservatives in the 70s
7:56and reactionaries that didn't like the
7:58Civil Rights Movement wanted to reverse
8:00it but so they basically invented this
8:02Trojan Horse of color blindness and um
8:06uh so that they could sort of get racism
8:09in through the back door it's totally
8:11false and chapter two of my book is all
8:13about this I go back to the 1860s to
8:17this guy named wend Phillips who was one
8:18of the most important
8:20abolitionists uh and he believed black
8:23people should had full should have full
8:24rights right after the Civil Civil War
8:26so he was the more radical wing of the
8:28Abolitionist move movement and he's the
8:30first person to push the idea and the
8:32word color blindness he actually asked
8:34for a color blind government is how he
8:36put it in 1865 so I go from there and
8:39it's a straight line all the way through
8:40the Civil Rights Movement with where the
8:43the one of the central demands of the
8:45nwacp in the Civil Rights Movement was a
8:48colorblind race neutral regime of
8:50government this was at the core of the
8:52civil rights movement and so what
8:55happened is in the late 60s and 70s
8:57liberals abandoned this idea during the
8:59race riots very similar to what happened
9:02during George Floyd where you had every
9:03politician trying to outdo the other to
9:06show how much they cared about racism
9:08and implementing race-based policies
9:10everywhere from you know Microsoft to
9:13like a local Town
9:14ordinance um liberals abandoned
9:18colorblindness and starting in 2013 this
9:22trend really accelerates the trend
9:25accelerates because everyone has a
9:26smartphone starting in around 2013
9:28smartphone with a camera and social
9:30media and so we get this narrative false
9:33narrative people are seeing videos in
9:36their social media feeds of unarmed
9:38black Americans getting shot by cops and
9:41they're being told that this is a daily
9:42reality and that this never happens to
9:44white people both of which are false but
9:47people believe it and that leaves an
9:49opening in people's minds for these
9:51Fringe theories critical race Theory to
9:54seep into the public and that's been
9:57called Mt GLA has called it the Great
9:59awokening it was I think what many of us
10:01experienced starting in 2013 where
10:03suddenly everyone is talking about white
10:05privilege systemic racism how whiteness
10:07is evil how black people are inherently
10:09morally Superior and we get the whole
10:12complex of racial tensions and BLM that
10:16we've seen over the past about 11 years
10:20how much of that do you think is tied
10:21into the presidency of of Barack Obama
10:24because when he took office in 2009 he
10:26he came into office with a with with the
10:29basic argument which was that we were
10:31aiming toward the post-racial society
10:33and that he and his person was
10:35emblematic of that move in sort of the
10:37postracial society there wasn't Black
10:38America there wasn't White America there
10:40was just America no red States no blue
10:41States just the United States and then
10:43Circle about 2012 probably with the
10:46Trayvon Martin case you started to see
10:48the the president start to inject
10:49himself in some of these issues in a lot
10:51more loud fashion there was the Henry
10:53Louis Gates incident in in Cambridge
10:55Massachusetts where he suggested that
10:56the police officer had acted stupidly
10:59targeting Henry Lewis Gates over his
11:01race it turned out was a little bit more
11:02of a complex situation than that and he
11:04started sounding off a lot more loudly
11:06about these issues and it it for a lot
11:08of Americans it was kind of an Abrupt
11:10reversal and I I think that abrupt
11:12reversal sort of carried on into 2013
11:15and then in 2014 with the Ferguson riots
11:17in which the president again said people
11:18aren't making things like this up even
11:20though the Ferguson case actually was
11:21largely made up in terms of the original
11:23hands up don't shoot narrative and all
11:24of this yeah so you're exactly right
11:26about Barack Obama's trajectory his
11:28first term he was he sounded a lot like
11:31me I mean if you if you go back to his
11:33speech on race in 2008 it almost looks
11:36like something I would write um by 2013
11:40he was already drinking the Kool-Aid on
11:43BLM and so forth so my view is he didn't
11:46cause that Trend he rode he rode the
11:49political winds essentially the trend
11:52was because of social media and Camera
11:55enabled smartphones that changed the
11:57political Winds of the country fun
11:59mentally and Barack Obama was like a
12:01Weather Vein he he felt he could no
12:03longer get away with the kind of old
12:06school mentality that that he had in
12:092008 so he rode the winds in the
12:11direction of identity politics but he
12:13didn't cause it so when you look at sort
12:15of the roots of the radical Fringe of
12:18the civil rights movement that you're
12:19that you're talking about that was
12:20calling for a a rejiggering of America
12:23based on group instead of based on
12:25individual and sort of the post-racial
12:27society that streams very heavily with
12:31with Marxist thought and there there are
12:32a lot of people who have suggested I
12:34think correctly that basically what
12:36happened in the late 60s early 7s is
12:39that many of the arguments that had
12:40historically been made about class and
12:42did not work in the United States
12:43because America is is pretty obviously
12:46not a class-based society unlike say
12:48many elements of Europe historically
12:50where classes were were basically baked
12:51into the cake where you had a House of
12:52Lords for example people with historic
12:54wealth you never had that in the United
12:56States to toille talks about the idea
12:58that the United States was shockingly
12:59middle class that there really was no
13:01boundary between the middle class and
13:02the upper class and that people could
13:04move freely within the classes and so
13:06the failure of Marxism in the United
13:08States a class-based system was
13:10transmuted into a a race-based system
13:13where instead of making the argument
13:14that people were inherently a part of a
13:16lower economic strata the argument was
13:18that if one group racially was
13:21disproportionately a member of a lower
13:22economic strata that is because Society
13:25was racist as opposed to being classist
13:27and so they grafted many of the Marxist
13:28AR arguments into a much more fragile
13:31area for the United States historically
13:32which is Ray I think that's right I
13:35think if you go back and read a lot of
13:36the critical race theorists they were
13:38very much steeped in Marxism they all
13:41swam in those Waters they all admired
13:43Marx and the Litany of Scholars who came
13:47out of the Marxist
13:49school but they were dissatisfied with
13:51one aspect of Marx which is that Marx
13:53didn't care about race I mean he was a
13:55bit of a racist and an anti-semite
13:57himself but in his philosophy he didn't
13:59Focus very much on race and they didn't
14:01like that so they added race to a
14:04broadly Marxist framework of of looking
14:06at the world and that's those are the
14:09waters out of which critical race theory
14:12was born now there's another similarity
14:14to
14:15Marxism which is when you look at IAM
14:17kend's school of thought ibram kendi
14:20believes that if black people are 133%
14:23of the American population black people
14:25should be 13% of everything that is 13 %
14:29of people in the bad parts of society
14:32prisons uh you know being punished and
14:35juvenile detention so forth 133% of
14:38wealth 133% of every profession 133% of
14:43professors 13% of people in the media
14:46and so forth on down the list this is an
14:50idea very similar to the kind of marxist
14:53diagnosis of society that led commun uh
14:56communist countries to ruin on on almost
14:59every continent um throughout the 20th
15:02century so there is a there's an that's
15:04the other similarity to to to Marxism is
15:06the the false dream of equal
15:10outcomes we'll get some more on this in
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15:23sectors like mining oil and shipping but
15:25his lack of diversification became a
15:27significant issue when commodity prices
15:28started to fall and the Brazilian
15:30economy slowed by around 2014 Batista
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16:20that's Ben to 98
16:229898 one one of the things that's been
16:24fascinating to watch inside the
16:25Democratic party is the Embrace of this
16:27by people who are pretty openly Marxist
16:29Bernie Sanders in 2016 runs and he meets
16:32with shocking levels of popularity
16:34inside the Democratic party running on a
16:36class-based platform and then he
16:38basically gets shellacked for not being
16:40racialist enough and by 2020 he's now
16:43mirroring many of the arguments of of
16:45black lives matter specifically in an
16:46attempt to sort of fill in that Gap how
16:50much do you think the Democratic party
16:52has been captured by this is it is it
16:54possible for the Democratic party to
16:55self-correct here well I hope that I can
16:58be you know I can be part of the the
17:01solution here I mean the the fact that I
17:03was received so well by the views
17:05audience I mean that's the other part
17:07that was interesting that audience is
17:09mostly Democrat if not completely
17:11Democrat and they were clapping uh for
17:14me despite the fact I was getting
17:15attacked by Sunny hustin so I think
17:18people confuse the positions of the
17:19Democrat Elites and Democrat leadership
17:22with the position of rank and file
17:24Democrat voters Rank and file Democrat
17:26voters often believe in colorblind
17:30policy uh and believe in my message that
17:33where we do have where the government
17:35does have a legitimate interest in
17:37helping the poor uh and the
17:39disadvantaged if they want to do that
17:41and if it works they should do it on the
17:43basis of income not on the basis of race
17:45right if you're going to tell me you're
17:46going to help pay for the college
17:48tuition of someone whose parents make
17:50$30,000 a year that makes sense to me
17:53and you don't need to pay for the
17:54tuition of someone who whose parents
17:56make half a million dollars a year those
17:58sorts of income based policies don't
18:00receive very much backlash if they work
18:03when they work well um so to the extent
18:06that the Democrats can go back to that
18:09kind of message I think they'll have
18:10more success electorally and they'll
18:12have a better uh profile of public
18:14policies unfortunately I think the
18:16Democrats are far too easily swayable by
18:21the activist Fringe the easiest way to
18:23see this is with the word Latin X I mean
18:25many people have made this point but the
18:27word Latin X makes no sense with the
18:29Spanish language um almost no Hispanic
18:32people have heard of it yet you heard it
18:34coming out of the mouths of Elizabeth
18:35Warren and even Joe
18:37Biden when Pew finally did a poll and
18:40asked American Hispanics do you like
18:43this word Latin X 96% said either never
18:46heard of it or I don't like it now I
18:50could have told you that but um the the
18:53this is it's basically that 4% that
18:574% who are who comprise the subculture
19:01and the bubble of democrat Elites and
19:04are often unable to get outside that
19:06bubble and realize uh that they have a
19:08totally different set of values
19:10different way of speaking a different
19:12language than the voters that they need
19:14to reach it does feel like an insular
19:16click and this isn't true for just one
19:18party but it's certainly true in this
19:19matter for for the Democratic party
19:21there's an insular click that uses the
19:23language or uses sort of faith-based
19:26skin in the game attempts to demonstrate
19:29cultural solidarity with this ideology
19:32and so you mention latinx or another
19:34example would be using pronouns in your
19:35in your bio uh which you know unless you
19:38are a trans identifying person is
19:40completely irrelevant and everybody will
19:41just assume that you are exactly what
19:43you appear to be um what when it comes
19:45to some of the you know racial arguments
19:47I think there's some of this going on as
19:49well one of the things that that's
19:50occurred to me over the years and I've
19:51said it many times is that the black
19:53lives matter movement has historically
19:55picked victims who are actually not the
19:58Great examples of victims there are in
20:00fact black men who have been shot
20:02unjustifiably by the police and those
20:04are never the ones who are famous it it
20:06is always the the black men who are in
20:08at the very least controversial
20:10situations with the cops who are then
20:11made iconic by the black lives matter
20:14movement and the only reason to do that
20:15presumably would be as a show of faith
20:17that if you're willing to say that this
20:18too is an example of systemic American
20:20racism well then you're part of the club
20:22so Michael Brown is a great example of
20:23this obviously hands up don't shoot was
20:25completely a lie start to finish and
20:27Michael Brown ends up being an icon of
20:29the movement to the point where hands up
20:30don't shoot becomes the thing that
20:32people are saying years years later
20:34people are still paying homage to to the
20:36image of Michael Brown being an innocent
20:38victim of the police despite the fact
20:40that the federal government under Eric
20:41Holder found that that that was not in
20:43fact the case you've written pretty
20:44extensively about the George Floyd
20:47situation where there's basically two
20:49major questions one is there was never
20:50even the accusation that derck chovin
20:52killed George Floyd based on his race
20:54that accusation was never even made in
20:56court there was no evidence even
20:57presented to that effect and and then
20:58there's the secondary question which is
21:00whether Derek chovin actually even
21:02murdered George Floyd or whether George
21:04Floyd experienced some form of cardiac
21:07arrest based on the fact that he was
21:08saying he couldn't breathe before he
21:10even he couldn't breathe even before
21:11they had him on the ground outside the
21:13car what do you make of the the attempt
21:15to choose particular victims as opposed
21:17to others yeah I mean you're absolutely
21:20right I mean so a case like philando
21:22Castile was just kind of straightforward
21:24absolute tragedy uh that almost nobody
21:27who looked at it really disagreed with
21:29it and not not for any significant
21:31period of time but that became a
21:34footnote in the black Liv matter black
21:37lives matter story relative to these
21:38other examples like Michael Brown who um
21:42you know I mean the officer I'm not sure
21:45the officer could have done anything
21:46different in that in that scenario un
21:48unless he was a super cop um and and of
21:51course George Floyd which you know
21:53changed the world and which people uh
21:57you know people were so deeply pressured
22:00to take the line that he was murdered
22:03that people have ignored all the the
22:05counter evidence at trial so U you know
22:08I've been writing about this
22:10recently you know
22:12essentially so let's just first talk
22:14about the ways in which the trial was
22:15unfair and this is something I don't
22:17think anyone has even really tried to
22:19disagree with me about right you had one
22:21jury member who is wearing a shirt that
22:24said get your knee off our necks before
22:26the trial okay before the trial they
22:29attended a March in commemorating Dr
22:32King where George Floyd's family memb
22:34spoke and he was wearing a shirt that
22:36said get your knee off our necks and
22:37then he was selected uh to be in a jury
22:40about a trial about whether a knee on
22:42the neck constituted murder okay so you
22:45went to law school right Ben I did if
22:47you if you if you get this as a
22:48hypothetical with the names removed how
22:51many people in class are saying that
22:53that juror's objective zero I mean
22:55obviously that that that is a permet
22:57challenge immediately that is upell by
22:59the court okay so then add to that the
23:02fact that you have in their interviews
23:04you have several jurors seated jurors
23:06and unseated jurors saying that they
23:08were afraid for their safety if the
23:10trial were to come out one way we all
23:12know what that means if it were to be an
23:14aquid the the whole city was going to go
23:16up in Flames they knew that their names
23:18were going to come out some months after
23:21the trial and if you are associated with
23:24the aquid of a of May perhaps the least
23:27popular defendant in American history
23:30certainly in modern American history uh
23:33you know understandably you fear for
23:35your family okay so there's that uh
23:39there's the fact that the jury wasn't
23:40sequestered in one of the most talked
23:42about trials in modern American history
23:45there's a fact that everyone knew the
23:46City of Minneapolis was which had been
23:49traumatized historically traumatized by
23:51the Riots of the past year would go up
23:53in riots again if he was acquitted yet
23:56the trial wasn't moved every judgment
23:58call that that a judge could make to
24:00make it fairer went in the wrong
24:01direction okay so putting all that to
24:04the side actually looking at the facts
24:06of what happened you had two different
24:09theories of what killed George Floyd you
24:11had the positional asfixia Theory and
24:13the adrenaline surge Theory the
24:15positional aixia theory was that chovin
24:18had so much weight on his neck and back
24:20that he couldn't take full breaths Floyd
24:21couldn't take full breaths and he he he
24:25died in exactly the way you would
24:26imagine you know aixia he he l Lally
24:28couldn't breathe he couldn't expand his
24:29lungs because there was so much weight
24:30on his
24:31back um that was the prosecution's
24:34theory and they had Dr Tobin back it up
24:37not a crazy Theory it's
24:39possible um then there was the theory of
24:41the guy who did the actual autopsy Dr Dr
24:45Andrew Baker from hennipen County his
24:47theory was totally different had nothing
24:48to do with getting full breaths nothing
24:50to do with positional asphyxia he
24:52believed that uh George Floyd had an
24:55adrenaline surge because of the whole
24:57altercation he was
24:59physically uh struggling for minutes and
25:01minutes on end and his his what what
25:04happens is your body surges with stress
25:06hormones which a asks your heart to beat
25:08faster and the problem was George Floyd
25:10he had an En a very enlarged heart he
25:13had severe uh um a hypertensive U arter
25:18artery sclerosis which means his his
25:21arteries were constricted one 90%
25:23constricted one was 75% constricted very
25:26severe he he also had fent in his system
25:30um a significant amount of fenol in his
25:31system and Trace Amounts of
25:33methamphetamine and other drugs and you
25:35put all this together and his his heart
25:38could not respond to the demands of the
25:41adrenaline asking it to beat faster so
25:43that was Dr Baker's Theory also not a
25:45crazy Theory very much possible now
25:48these these were both plausible theories
25:50nothing ruled either one out uh and if
25:53you're a jury and you have two theories
25:56one of which implicates the defendant
25:58and one of which doesn't you were
26:00supposed to acit because that's that's
26:02reasonable doubt it could be the case
26:04that chovin could be the case that
26:05chovin killed him because of the weight
26:07could also be the case that he died
26:08because the struggle his heart gave out
26:11as a result of the adrenaline brought on
26:12by the whole situation in which case
26:14chovin didn't kill him so so that right
26:17there that's re that should be that
26:19should have been Reasonable Doubt on all
26:20three charges uh but of course uh uh you
26:24know this was one of the least Fair
26:26trials that that I've ever seen and and
26:29so that's my view of of of what should
26:32have happened I'm not saying chovin was
26:33a good cop I'm not saying he handled the
26:34situation well not saying he shouldn't
26:36have been disciplined in some way for
26:38for uh that arrest but um there was
26:42certainly Reasonable Doubt on the
26:43criminal charges now what did you make
26:45of obviously Bradley Bal came after you
26:47pretty hard uh over all of this what did
26:49you make of his critiques of your of
26:50your speaking out about all of this yeah
26:52so his critiques uh on the point of the
26:55autopsy were uniformly wrong um I think
26:59where he did make some good points was
27:01on the training so for
27:03example uh they were they were trained
27:06to be a be be aware of positional
27:09asfixia right they were trained to be
27:10aware of this and uh they were tra to
27:13roll them into the side recovery
27:15position as opposed to staying on their
27:17back what Balco doesn't talk about is
27:20the fact that they were also trained on
27:22a bunch of other stuff which is more
27:25favorable to Chin's defense for example
27:27they were trained that if someone is
27:29talking then they're breathing that's in
27:31their training okay Floyd was talking
27:33for 5 minutes in fact he was yelling so
27:36if you train officers to be aware that
27:39people often lie to get out of arrests
27:42which is true and you say no matter what
27:44they say if they're talking then they're
27:45breathing and then you see a guy that's
27:47breathing for five minutes and who
27:49claimed to be claustrophobic even though
27:51he was just sitting in a car locked car
27:54voluntarily uh obviously know it's very
27:58possible that officers are going to
28:00think he's fine he's talking this is my
28:02training my training is that if they're
28:04talking they're fine um they were also
28:06trained that there are situations in
28:07which you can stay on a suspect in the
28:10prone position not rolling them over if
28:12the situation isn't code for meaning
28:14there's a for instance there's a hostile
28:16crowd or something like that and that
28:18was that was they were very worried
28:20about the crowd encroaching and
28:21attacking and obviously hindsight is
28:232020 we know that Floyd died and that
28:25they should have their attention should
28:26have been fully focused on him but you
28:29don't judge officers with 2020 hindsight
28:31you judge them based on what was
28:32reasonable at the time so I think
28:34there's a lot of counter evidence even
28:36on what shovin was trained that make it
28:39uh more defensible or more
28:41understandable given what he was trained
28:43to do so let's talk about some of the
28:45myths that you talk about in your book
28:46with regard to race and and racial
28:50justice so obviously you know there are
28:53those of us who are Advocates of the
28:54idea that Justice there shouldn't never
28:56be a modifier to Justice there's just
28:57Justice there's no such thing as social
28:58justice or racial Justice there is just
29:00what is just or unjust in a particular
29:02circumstance and the minute you add a
29:03modifier you actually move into the
29:05realm of Injustice as soon as you say
29:07social justice you're doing so at the
29:09detriment of individual Justice if you
29:10say racial Justice then what you're
29:12doing so is it the detriment to the
29:15individual in circumstances because
29:16you're obviously substituting another
29:18priority for for that priority you go
29:20through a series of myths in the book
29:22about race why don't we go through some
29:24of those myths right now so that you can
29:25sort of fill in the audience on what
29:26those myths are the most obvious one is
29:29one that Thomas Sol has spent a lot of
29:30time on is the the myth that disparity
29:32equals discrimination that that just
29:34because things don't end up the way that
29:36e Max kendi wants where 133% of every
29:38industry is black this means that the
29:40industry is discriminating against the
29:43group that is disproportionately either
29:45underrepresented or over represented in
29:47that
29:48industry yes so let me let me start here
29:50with that people often mistake me for
29:54saying that racism doesn't exist it's
29:56one of the most common criticism I get I
29:58think it's one of the most common
29:59criticisms so has gotten as well it's
30:02absolutely not what we're saying racism
30:04does exist in the literature there is
30:06RAC racism against minorities in the
30:08labor market um Soul uh you know having
30:12grown up in the 1930s in the gim Crow
30:14South is highly aware that racism exists
30:17the argument however is that um if
30:20racism were the main reason why people
30:23succeeded or failed we would see a
30:25totally different landscape
30:28of success than in fact what we see so
30:31for example what we see is that Indian
30:35indian-americans uh South
30:36asian-americans face discrimination in
30:38the labor market yet indian-americans
30:40are the highest earning ethnic group
30:43however pakistanis and bang bangladeshis
30:45earn far less than average is it that
30:49one group is receiving more
30:50discrimination than the other well no
30:53Nigerian Americans do better than
30:54average and whatever races and black
30:57people as a whole experience Nigerians
30:59are also experiencing and yet they do
31:00better than average um you see different
31:03white ethnic groups uh make very
31:06different sums of money right if you
31:07look at russian-americans as opposed to
31:09French Americans you're talking about a
31:11difference of 80 cents on the dollar and
31:12I don't think anyone is discriminating
31:14against different ethnic white groups
31:17Chinese Americans earn something like
31:20it's like it's like 60 cents on the
31:21dollar between Mong Americans and
31:24Chinese Americans and you and I could
31:25not tell a Mong American apart from a
31:27Chinese American americ so what you see
31:29is that
31:30actually uh the vast majority of what
31:33determines whether a group is successful
31:35in America modern America are all the
31:38other things the human capital the
31:40social capital um the skills you bring
31:42to the table the level of Education not
31:45how much discrimination you face the
31:48Discrimination seems in the literature
31:50not to matter very much to determining
31:52outcomes that's the argument um what
31:56what's happened is that you have a whole
31:57group of Scholars a whole a whole
31:59portion of Academy that believes that
32:02discrimination uh that disparities are
32:05only caused by discrimination there's
32:07just no evidence for this belief if that
32:09were true we would see a totally
32:11different landscape uh of disparities so
32:14when it comes to sort of a a subset of
32:17that fallacy or maybe an extension of
32:19that fallacy there's an attempt very
32:21often to redirect from statistics where
32:23this is obviously true to statistics
32:25that are historically based so what
32:26you'll see is movement from you're
32:28talking about income statistics which
32:29are very real because they're in the
32:31here and now uh and so if one group has
32:34a lower income than another group or one
32:36income group has a one group has a a
32:38greater level of income Mobility than
32:40another income group you can see how
32:42current policy shapes the income of of
32:45these various groups and you can rule
32:46out whether discrimination is true or
32:48not and so then there's a misdirect and
32:50the misdirect typically is to wealth in
32:52communities and because wealth obviously
32:54is going to contain vestiges of the past
32:57obviously if your grandfather was
32:59wealthy and your grandfather is wealthy
33:00because he engaged in racism or or
33:03because your great great great
33:04grandfather engaged in racism you can
33:06carry that forward the the attempt is to
33:09suggest that because there are vast
33:10wealth differentials in American life
33:12that those are either largely or
33:14entirely due to discrimination
33:15historically and that it's impossible to
33:17overcome those those wealth
33:20differentials and what that misses that
33:22the way that wealth is typically built
33:23is through income so if you actually
33:24wish to fix that in the future you need
33:26to change income trajectories not wealth
33:28distributions there's an attempt to say
33:30for example with regard to reparations
33:33well the the way to fix the wealth
33:34disparities of the past is to is to
33:36Simply redistribute the wealth that
33:38already exists among different racial
33:39groups in order to make up for
33:40discrimination of the past without
33:43mentioning that if you don't change the
33:44income trajectories of the groups right
33:45now those income the wealth traj the the
33:48the wealth differentials will just
33:49reemerge incredibly quickly no matter
33:52what level of redistribution ISM you use
33:54yeah there's also uh I mean so I think
33:56the wealth argument they certainly have
33:58a stronger point to point out the ways
34:00in which black people were um uh
34:04disadvantaged in the booming how post
34:06World War II housing market I think
34:08that's a good point uh I think it gets
34:10taken too far however and if you just
34:13look at like the the building of wealth
34:15among asian-americans the vast majority
34:18of whom arrived after 1965 right after
34:20that glorious boom period um and arrived
34:24here with very little um coming from
34:27countries like China and and so forth
34:29which were largely still third world
34:33countries at that time um and the extent
34:36that they've they've almost caught up in
34:38median wealth with white Americans just
34:40in the in the past uh 50
34:43years is a testament to the fact that
34:46America is still the best place for
34:50someone who is poor to build wealth
34:53within two generations there there's no
34:56place better for for for that um on
34:58planet Earth right now and so um I think
35:02uh you're you're certainly right to
35:04point out that that uh this attitude
35:07which blames everything on the past it's
35:10it's anti-scientific it's just not it's
35:12not the truth and it's certainly not a
35:13helpful mindset in terms of encouraging
35:17people to to do the healthy things that
35:19are going to um get them to succeed in
35:22the only life that we do have and
35:24there's very rarely an attempt to
35:26actually try to measure create some sort
35:28of metric for how much has past
35:30discrimination contributed to
35:32current income trajectories for example
35:35that that that is Le somebody will say
35:37okay well there's racism for your
35:38parents and therefore there's an income
35:40trajectory now without attempting to
35:41actually measure to what extent that's
35:43true because it turns out that there's a
35:44vast panoply of answers from 0% to 100%
35:47and the answer is probably somewhere in
35:49the middle but the arguments seem to be
35:510% or 100% pick one and that of course
35:55is is really stupid and also doesn't get
35:57you to anything like the multifactorial
35:59analysis that's going to be necessary to
36:00correct the behavior what when you pick
36:02the 100% analysis which is what ibr be
36:04keni does and and his and his
36:06intellectual elk when when they make the
36:08100% argument that all disparities are
36:11attributable to either past or current
36:13discrimination that it's all
36:14discrimination the reason it seems like
36:15they're doing that is because they want
36:17to make then another false binary
36:18argument the false binary argument is if
36:20you argue the reverse if you argue that
36:22the disparities between groups are
36:24largely attributable at this point in
36:25time to individual decision making
36:28within groups being different that
36:31people make different if you pick any
36:32two groups in America age groups sex
36:35groups like literally any any groups in
36:37America there will be disparities
36:38because individuals within those groups
36:40make different decisions you could take
36:41a random room around the United States
36:42draw a line down the middle of it and
36:44there will be disparities between the
36:45two groups on a wide variety of topics
36:47because the individuals are different in
36:49the in those two groups what he instead
36:51suggests in another false binary he says
36:53well if you're saying for example that
36:55black Americans earn less than white
36:57americ and it's not due to racism then
36:59you must be suggesting that black
37:02Americans are inferior to white
37:04Americans then you're a racist right
37:06because anti-racism would be trying to
37:08correct for all the Discrimination if
37:10you say it's not discrimination it must
37:12be because you believe that black people
37:13have lower IQs or because you believe
37:14that black people are genetically
37:16inferior to white people or something
37:18like that what do you make of that
37:20argument the truth is that groups differ
37:24on all kinds of cultural attributes and
37:26we all know this
37:28um ethnic groups differ groups of the
37:30same race differ
37:32culturally uh what we mean by the word
37:34Multicultural Society is that there are
37:37many cultures in one society and if you
37:41believe that culture matters which most
37:44people do then you have to admit that
37:47culture matters plus cultures differ
37:50equals cultural differences
37:53matter um and there's so many ways you
37:55could look at this that don't even
37:57involve the question of race look at the
38:00historic differences between white
38:01Americans from the north and white
38:03Americans from the south on every
38:05outcome measure from income to
38:09Crime um to all all sorts of cultural
38:13and values
38:15differences uh between two groups of the
38:17same race in my group in my book I cite
38:20a study of ass sociologists who looked
38:22at different black American groups in
38:24New York Black Americans as opposed to
38:26black Caribbean
38:28and found large cultural differences uh
38:31in terms of you're looking at you know
38:32black immigrants from places like
38:34Jamaica who have a different uh carry a
38:37different culture and have different
38:38outcomes as a result these are two
38:40groups of the same race how can it be
38:42racist to say that the culture might be
38:44behind the outcome
38:46differences um so this is one of the
38:49biggest
38:50false uh kind of false arguments that
38:53people
38:54make smearing you as a racist for the
38:57common sense and highly empirically
39:00backed finding that culture matters if
39:03you if you raise people people in a
39:05culture that strongly values education
39:09where your parents are over your
39:10shoulders encouraging you to do your
39:12homework and helping you do your
39:13homework from a very young age reading
39:15you books when you're three years old
39:17giving you a head start um teaching you
39:19to read before you get into kindergarten
39:22in the modern world where those skills
39:24matter that culture is going to do
39:26better than a culture that is doing the
39:28opposite where very few people are
39:30reading to their kids before
39:31kindergarten for whatever reason and
39:34it's not racist to point out that that
39:35matters you one of the areas where you
39:38again I think that the reason that you
39:40got so much IR from Sunny hustin is
39:41because one of the things that you
39:42debunk here is a tool that is very
39:44frequently used which you call the myth
39:46of superior knowledge this basic idea
39:48which is that unless you're a member of
39:50the supposedly discriminated against
39:51group you can't even Define the terms
39:54that that are being discussed and so if
39:56you are white person and you talk about
39:58all of this stuff then your opinion is
40:01of no Consequence the problem for you of
40:02course is that you're not a white person
40:04and therefore when you debunk the myth
40:06of superior knowledge this makes you a
40:07sort of Race traiter To The Myth itself
40:10the myth itself requires a certain level
40:12of racial solidarity and support of the
40:13myth because if there's somebody who
40:15walks out and says well I'm black and I
40:17don't support what you're saying well
40:19then that suggests obviously that that
40:21the there there is no special knowledge
40:23held by held by black Americans about
40:25racism at least in terms of its def def
40:28right so I think what yeah what people
40:30do here is they take a kind of Common
40:32Sense truism and then they build it into
40:35a totally radical false belief the
40:37common sense truism is that you Ben
40:40Shapiro have some life experiences that
40:42I don't and I Coleman Hughes have some
40:44life experiences that that you don't I'm
40:47you know I'm from North Jersey um from a
40:49family that is half black and half
40:51Puerto Rican um I spent a lot of time in
40:54the Bronx with my family growing up and
40:56I've been to puer Rico and you you grew
40:58up in La is that right around there so
41:01there's a bunch of stuff local knowledge
41:03that you're going to have that I'm
41:05probably not going to have and there's a
41:07bunch of stuff from my life that is
41:09knowledge that I'm going to have that
41:11you're not going to have um now that's
41:13just always true as as a virtue of all
41:16of us living our own kind of unique
41:18paths in life and what people uh what I
41:22the people I call Neo rist in the book
41:24what they do is they take that grain of
41:26Truth and build it into a philosophy
41:29where I as a black person know certain
41:32truths about society that you couldn't
41:35possibly know and cannot refute me on no
41:37matter how much evidence you have so for
41:39example if I say as a black person
41:42because of my experience I know that I
41:46know that the the the reason that
41:50there's a disparity in police shootings
41:51is because the police are racist as
41:53opposed to because they're encountering
41:55black criminals much more often than
41:56white criminals I just know that because
41:59I'm a black person and for you as a non
42:01as a non-black guy as a Jewish guy to
42:04come at me with evidence or facts I can
42:06just dismiss it because well of course
42:08you're going to say that it's easy for
42:10easy for a White Guy to say and in fact
42:13I look at the I I cite in the book this
42:15hilarious example where um Thomas Soul
42:18had had a great book called
42:19intellectuals in society and he's made
42:22some of the points I'm making in this
42:23interview now and there was a famous
42:25review in the London School of econom
42:27comcs I believe where uh they dismissed
42:30him they said oh this Thomas solo guy
42:33easy for a rich white man to say now
42:35they didn't check to see that Thomas
42:38soul is the furthest thing from a rich
42:40white guy he is a black man that was
42:42born I think in 1933 in the Jim Crow
42:45South in a in a house without running
42:49water or or rather without hot water he
42:53uh moved to Harlem when he was 10 and
42:56and his teens at one point lived in a
42:57homeless shelter for
42:59teens so and yet he had come to the
43:03conclusion based on on um scholarship
43:06and evidence uh that racism didn't
43:09explain uh probably the majority of
43:12disparities that we were now seeing so
43:15this is uh this is all to say that
43:19though we have different experiences we
43:20do live in an objective reality there is
43:24such a thing as truth there is such a
43:25thing as facts and those facts can't
43:27depend on the fact that you're you and
43:30I'm me so we have to be able to have a
43:33conversation where we can disagree with
43:35each other where no one by default
43:38trumps anyone else just by virtue of
43:40your skin color or your
43:42identity and um and that's the only way
43:45that we can actually have a conversation
43:47so I mean I can ask you at this point on
43:49a personal level obviously you are as
43:52you say biracial uh black and Puerto
43:54Rican and what have your experience has
43:57been with regard to racism in the United
44:00States I've experienced a few examples
44:03of racism I mean I can I can give you
44:05the uh four or five times where I think
44:08I'm pretty sure I was treated
44:10differently um as a result of my race
44:12like so okay I'll give you two examples
44:14there was one time on Columbia's campus
44:17where I was I was wearing a wife beater
44:20uh I don't know if we call that the the
44:22the t-shirts that anymore and jeans and
44:25I went into uh some writing office and
44:28there was some ad this this kind of
44:30cranky old administrator who didn't
44:32think I was a Columbia student probably
44:34thought I was Riff Raff from from Harlem
44:37or something and didn't believe me when
44:39I said I'm here to see the professor so
44:41that was literally that was like one one
44:44incident in all four or five years of
44:47college for
44:48me okay and it had no bearing on
44:50anything it was just annoying for about
44:533 minutes okay I'll give you one other
44:55example uh the only other example that
44:58comes to mind post 18 years old is I was
45:01in Time Square and I bought something
45:04from uh you know some fast food joint
45:09and uh the security guard thought I was
45:11stealing on the way out and I got a
45:13little upset I was like screw you I I I
45:16just paid for this go talk to the person
45:19now the punchline is a security guard
45:21was African it was African guy it was
45:23not a white guy who thought I was
45:24stealing and then 20 seconds later he
45:27checked to see I bought it and then I
45:28went on my Merry way so those are two
45:31examples where I I'm pretty sure I
45:33probably would not have been uh
45:35suspected that way or or I white or
45:38Asian say they had no bearing on my
45:40actual
45:41success uh I think that there is a kind
45:44of um uh in the black community there is
45:48like a very deep
45:50focus there's on sharing these kind of
45:54stories where we were treated
45:56differently
45:57um building them into a narrative about
45:59how black people are still held back and
46:01also ignoring really dishonestly all the
46:04ways in which American society has tried
46:06to give black people a leg up right it's
46:10like many black Americans will share
46:13these kinds of stories I'm sharing but
46:16if a white guy were to enter the room
46:18and say actually can I share a story
46:20there was one time where you know my
46:22manager told me we really want to hire
46:25you or promote you um you're actually
46:27the best candidate for this job but but
46:29we actually we we need to get a Black Or
46:31Hispanic candidate and I'm I'm really
46:33sorry tons of there's tons of white guys
46:36who who who have shared these kinds of
46:37stories either on conservative podcasts
46:39where it's safe to do so or you know in
46:42Memoirs or or you know over a drink uh
46:45but those stories would be laughed out
46:47of the room so my uh my hope is that as
46:52Americans we can all share our
46:55experiences of being treated differently
46:57as a result of our race and have a
46:59really good faith honest conversation
47:01where no one's experiences are just
47:03dismissed as meaningless but they're all
47:05integrated into this shared reality
47:07we're living in um and we can talk to
47:09each other about them and rejigger
47:12Society um uh and and teach our children
47:15the right way to treat people and and so
47:17forth but the the conversation
47:19unfortunately uh you know from the left
47:23has been white people shut up listen to
47:26us black people and that that's just
47:28that can't be the the the template for
47:31um interracial Harmony so right now
47:34there's a lot of talk on on the right
47:36particularly about the idea that maybe
47:37wokeness and Dei have hit their high
47:38water mark that we're going to actually
47:40like hit the other side of the Hill very
47:42soon because things were so hot during
47:44the the George Floyd era and the post
47:46Floyd kind of ruckus that was happening
47:49around the United States that that now
47:50maybe there's the backlash is taking
47:52root and maybe there's going to be sort
47:53of a drawing away from the more extreme
47:56manifestation
47:57of of all of this I'm kind of doubtful
47:59of that only because it seems like it's
48:01so deeply embedded in so many of the
48:02elite institutions that that you've been
48:04discussing at the very beginning and it
48:05manifests in a wide variety of ways
48:06including I think some of the college
48:08protests that we're currently seeing
48:09over Gaza I mean it's it's a much
48:10broader sort of rubric the the Dei
48:13intersectionality rubric is obviously
48:15much broader than just black and white
48:17obviously it encompasses all sorts of
48:20purportedly victimized groups and and
48:23they're stacked up in a particular
48:24hierarchy and depending on whether they
48:26can form a coalition or not with other
48:28members of the victimized group against
48:29the pervasive the the so-called
48:31prevailing system alliances form do do
48:34you think that we've hit the other end
48:35of woke and Dei or do you think that
48:37this is going to continue to be kind of
48:38a bubbling and and burgeoning problem in
48:41society so I actually think both things
48:43are true I think wokeness and the Dei
48:47IDE ideology which casts white people as
48:49villains and and Blackness as goodness
48:53in inherent goodness that peaked around
48:562020
48:572021 perhaps into 22 and it has declined
49:01since then but it's not going away it's
49:05uh it's declined and perhaps plateaued
49:08but you're you're totally right to say
49:09it's it's so entrenched in so many
49:11institutions that it's not going to keep
49:14declining like we're not going to hit
49:16the other side of the Hill as as as as
49:17you said so it's both true it peaked but
49:20it's also here to stay at a certain
49:23threshold well what it feels like to me
49:25is that the the most acid forms of this
49:28thing burned everybody and so everybody
49:29moved off the most acid forms but then a
49:31slightly less acidic form has sort of
49:33diffused itself throughout the society
49:35and continues to diffuse itself even
49:37into the the halls of of power so much
49:40so that what seems like a pretty easy
49:42win for the the president of the United
49:44States Who campaigned as a moderate
49:45Democrat you voted for him in 2020 that
49:47that even he has has he has to kind of
49:51Pat it on the head he he refuses to sort
49:53of dissociate from the ideology as a
49:55whole because he seems to believe that
49:57it's still politically valuable for him
49:59to kind of wink and out at the ideology
50:01while maybe sort of dissociating from
50:03its most extreme
50:04manifestations right and and I think in
50:07in support of your point that we're not
50:09where we were before this whole thing
50:11started it's really useful to remind
50:15people just how good race relations were
50:17perceived in like 2012 right before all
50:20of this started before BLM you literally
50:22had 60% a clear majority of black
50:25Americans pulled by Pew saying that bias
50:29was not an issue they were facing racial
50:31bias was not an issue they were facing
50:33and that number had just been getting
50:34better and better every year since
50:36the90s we were just we were going on the
50:38path to a situation where the vast
50:41majority of black people felt good about
50:43the issue of racism that it was not a
50:45big problem in their life you had a
50:47majority of black Americans and white
50:49Americans and Hispanic Americans all
50:51saying race relations were good in the
50:53year 2013 then it all plummeted so we're
50:56not back to those numbers we're not back
50:57to the pre identity politics um pre pre
51:01great awokening world we're just better
51:04than we were in 2020 and 2021 so I guess
51:07the question becomes how do we get back
51:08to a better world here because what
51:11politics seems to have become in the
51:12United States is a series of reactionary
51:14ping ponging where the the woke react in
51:17a particular way and then people on the
51:19right react not sometimes with the with
51:22the sort of
51:24individualistic Co you know sort of MLK
51:28answer that we all used to grow up with
51:30but they've reacted also in group
51:32fashion because it turns out that when
51:33you're labeled a group very often people
51:34start to find a group identity and being
51:36labeled a group so if the basic idea is
51:38that white Christian males are the bad
51:40guys eventually what you might get is
51:42white Christian males considering
51:43themselves an actual interest group
51:45which is something that historically at
51:47least in the last 40 years white
51:49Christian males have not they've
51:50considered themselves a series of
51:51individuals who live in communities but
51:53when you have a targeting of white
51:55Christian males as a group it's not too
51:58hard to see how people could start
52:00thinking of themselves as an actual put
52:02upon group and that in turn reinforces
52:05the other side and so you have this sort
52:06of weird pendulum of swinging side to
52:08side as opposed to approaching the
52:10middle again yeah we need people with
52:12The Bravery to opt out of the pendulum
52:14on both sides right we need PE people on
52:17the left have to stop playing the game
52:19of black identity politics of accusing
52:21every uh everything they don't like of
52:24of being racist of uh doing you know
52:27what Sunny hustin did to me on The View
52:29and people on the right have to resist
52:31the urge to react to that by by going in
52:35the other direction and saying screw it
52:37we're all doing identity politics so
52:39let's do white identity politics we we
52:42need people with The Bravery to say no
52:44to all of that and get us out of this
52:46vicious cycle and um remember that you
52:49know America is you know it's it's it's
52:52one of the greatest countries on Earth
52:53it's where everyone around the world
52:55wants to come there's a reason that it's
52:58uh it's it's there's a reason people
52:59want to come here because we have
53:00something great we have a a great Credo
53:03a great philosophy and that's a large
53:06part of the reason for our success so
53:07let's not abandon the American ideal of
53:10judging people as individuals um because
53:14we're having an emotional tribal
53:16response to realities political
53:19realities right now get some more on
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54:29order so now let's do the the hard thing
54:32which is to take all of this principal
54:33talk and bring it down to the level of
54:34crft politics so we're facing an
54:37election in 2024 uh in which we have a
54:40series of wildly unpopular candidates
54:42facing one another uh the the two main
54:45candidates in Joe Biden and Donald Trump
54:47obviously are below water in terms of
54:49approval rating they're running neck and
54:50neck largely because very few people are
54:52deeply enthusiastic about voting in full
54:55disclosure I've been very open about
54:56this I'm a supporter of President Trump
54:57I've raised money for president Trump I
54:59did not vote for him in 2016 I did vote
55:00for him in 2020 I'm voting for him in
55:022024 against Joe Biden you know you you
55:05suggested that you voted the last two
55:07presidential elections for the Democrats
55:09for Hillary Clinton and then for and
55:11then for Joe Biden in 2020 when you look
55:13at the field of candidates in 2024 what
55:14do you see yeah but so I see uh I think
55:18I forget who it was that said this but
55:20they are two candidates that are defined
55:21by their
55:22weaknesses um Biden's weakness of course
55:25is that he is uh not just old in terms
55:29of the number but old in terms of how he
55:32speaks how he walks everything about him
55:35screams of someone you would not really
55:38let you you you you know if that were
55:40your grandfather you would be telling
55:41him you know Granddad you got to stop
55:43driving like you know he he's at that
55:46stage um and Democrats have been
55:50extremely tempted to just deny this
55:52right uh but it's there for everyone to
55:54see uh now in the case of Trump you have
55:57someone who tried to steal the election
56:00last time um who is not again not
56:02committing committing to a peaceful
56:04transfer of power necessarily and I
56:06think if he loses he's probably going to
56:08do the same thing if he loses it's not
56:10fair if he wins it was fair um you've
56:13got uh a lot of indictments some of
56:15which I think are just like law fair but
56:19um some of which are um you know
56:21legitimate and uh just like more
56:25generally you have someone who whose
56:27level of chaos I don't think is
56:29compatible with uh being in the Oval
56:32Office which has always been my biggest
56:34problem with him and so I think you have
56:36two candidates that are uh very much
56:38disliked you know like I'm someone that
56:40would I think be a very winnable voter
56:42for a a different
56:45Republican um and then you've got RFK
56:47who is uh you know very charismatic at
56:49least to me and uh tempting but also
56:52untested and so forth so it's a it's a
56:55very depressing
56:56scenario right now and I don't I have no
56:59idea who I'm going to vote for or if I
57:01will vote um and I think a lot of people
57:04feel that way so let let's put it
57:06differently in terms of this what would
57:08have to change for each of the
57:09candidates that you just discussed to
57:10earn your vote so I think uh Trump could
57:13probably earn my vote by saying look I'm
57:17done I'm done pretending I lo I won the
57:19last election I'm looking forward I want
57:22one more term and then I'm out Biden's a
57:25disaster he's too old um let's not
57:28relitigate the last
57:29election and to to kind of come clean
57:32about for him to come clean about that
57:35would be uh would go a long way to
57:38restoring my confidence that he is
57:40looking forward and wanting to govern
57:42the country rather than wanting to
57:44settle scores with all the people that
57:47that have been trying to persecute him
57:48and they have been trying trying to
57:50persecute him um so I don't want him to
57:52I'm I'm worried he's going to be a score
57:54settling bitter president because he's a
57:57small person and an egotistical person
58:00rather than be the the best qualities
58:03about him which is you know the guy that
58:05got the Abraham Accords the guy that
58:07gets things done the guy that's a strong
58:09president that can stand up to the other
58:11strong men of the world the guy that can
58:12kind of be our bastard against the other
58:14bastards of the world um I I don't think
58:17he's going to do that but that's how he
58:18could win my president pres uh my my
58:21vote how Biden could win my vote is by
58:24getting up there in front of the media
58:26Doing Hard interviews Felding all the
58:29questions not disappearing not doing
58:31like the lowest amount of public
58:33appearances and press conferences of any
58:36president in recent recent history but
58:38showing us that he is cognitively sharp
58:42uh that he's he's he's up there he's
58:44home um and that he is uh up to the task
58:48of governing for four more years so I
58:51don't think he's likely to do that
58:52either because I don't I don't think he
58:54can do it and I shudder to think at what
58:57what he's going to look like three years
58:58from now keep in mind he's going to be
58:59president three years from now how much
59:02worse is he going to look then
59:04so um you know as as for RFK I think he
59:09could win my vote very easily with um
59:11you know moderating a few of his
59:12opinions
59:13on um kind of his his attacks on our our
59:17on our military I don't I don't I don't
59:19totally jive with um but you know yeah
59:24so so that that's what it looks like for
59:26me right now when it comes to policy the
59:28argument that I've made with regard to
59:29the 2024 election is that many of the
59:32arguments that are made with regard to
59:33Trump about how he's a a fascist or a
59:35tyrant or all of the rest of this sort
59:36of stuff a lot of that is is wildly
59:38exaggerated we already have a term of
59:40him and and it wasn't that and meanwhile
59:42on the other side of the aisle you have
59:43a president who really has used
59:44executive orders in in truly
59:46unprecedented ways uh who's used the
59:48effectively used the the administrations
59:51of government in ways that are are
59:54pretty extreme so another words it's
59:56it's sort of smart person tyranny as
59:58opposed to dumb talk uh and so one of
1:00:00the things that that I've said before
1:00:02about President Trump is that if you
1:00:03were to think of of basically the if you
1:00:07were to if you were to think about
1:00:08politics as a sort of coffee filter uh
1:00:11that the the filter that is American
1:00:12government has been more effective with
1:00:14Trump than it actually has been with
1:00:15Biden that because Biden appears to be
1:00:17more moderate in Persona this has meant
1:00:19that more more poisons and toxins are
1:00:22getting through the filter of the of the
1:00:24coffee and with Trump because they're
1:00:26kind of like rocks as opposed to toxins
1:00:28they're actually getting filtered out in
1:00:29terms of actual political policy by the
1:00:32time the the coffee hits your mug what
1:00:34do you make of that argument that may be
1:00:36true yeah that may be true I mean I
1:00:37think all all the institutions were on
1:00:40absolute high alert uh during Trump's
1:00:43four years
1:00:44because to your point the way Trump
1:00:47spoke in
1:00:482015 uh was deeply concerning like some
1:00:53some of the things he was talking about
1:00:55doing uh were highly concerning and you
1:00:58know and I know this is like I was
1:01:01worried he was a fascist the way he was
1:01:03talking and then he had four years of
1:01:05governing like a typical Republican and
1:01:06in fact um doing certain policies that
1:01:11were to the left of what even Obama
1:01:13would have done um you know there are
1:01:15certain policies he did with the first
1:01:16step act for example commuting sentences
1:01:19for federal prisoners drug crimes uh
1:01:22making funding for black colleges
1:01:24automatic rather than having to re re-up
1:01:27every year had Obama done that I think
1:01:30Republicans would have accused him of
1:01:31playing identity
1:01:32politics so um Trump ended up governing
1:01:36very differently than he talked and I
1:01:39think that was uh maybe that was obvious
1:01:41to some people who really kind of got
1:01:43Trump but it was not obvious to me who
1:01:45didn't get Trump in 2016 and so I'm
1:01:48certainly much less afraid of a trump
1:01:50presidency now than I was in 2016
1:01:53because I understand that the vast Gulf
1:01:55between what he says and what he does um
1:01:58he talks in a stream of Consciousness
1:02:00way and so entertains idea ideas far
1:02:03crazier than what he would actually do
1:02:06um so so that that's that's definitely
1:02:09true and it uh it may be true that
1:02:12because he talks so crazy I think the
1:02:15institutions he's like the immune system
1:02:18of America reacts to him in a way that
1:02:20we react to no other president yeah so I
1:02:23mean the the case that I've made to
1:02:25people is that if you want to prevent
1:02:26Trump from denying the election outcome
1:02:28then he should win he would have to
1:02:30worry about
1:02:31it well Coleman I really appreciate the
1:02:33time uh the book is wonderful people
1:02:35should pick it up right now the end of
1:02:37race politics and thanks for what you're
1:02:39doing really appreciate it thanks for
1:02:41having me
1:02:48Ben the Ben Shapiro Sunday special is
1:02:51produced by Savannah morres and Matt
1:02:53Kemp associate producers are Jake
1:02:55Pollock and John Crick editing is by
1:02:57Chris Ridge audio is mixed by Mike
1:02:59Corina camera and lighting is by Zach
1:03:01ginta hair makeup and wardrobe by
1:03:04Fabiola Christina title Graphics are by
1:03:06Cynthia Angulo executive assistant Kelly
1:03:09carvalo executive in charge of
1:03:10production is David wormis executive
1:03:12producer Justin seagull executive
1:03:14producer Jeremy boring the Ben Shapiro
1:03:16show Sunday special is a daily wire
1:03:18production copyright daily wire 2024
1:03:24[Music]

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