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Nos vendieron que ser iguales es ser idénticos | María Calvo | Rebeldes Podcast #41 — Transcript

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0:00Mary loses Jesus. I mean, what mother
0:02loses Jesus? I mean, she lost the
0:04Savior because she wasn't a
0:05super-protective mother, obsessed with
0:07the child, no. Mary was with Joseph,
0:10meaning, first comes her husband and
0:13then the child. It is very powerful to
0:16say, "I am a scholar of masculinity and
0:18Jesus is the most sublime model of
0:19balanced masculinity there can be,
0:21which at the same time I am sure is the
0:23face of his father Joseph. I think it's
0:25that perfect mix of tenderness and
0:27strength. We give much more importance
0:29to the blood relationship with the
0:31family of origin and with the children
0:32than the relationship with the partner,
0:34with the husband, with the spouse. That
0:37is to say, the spouse comes first; the
0:39mold of the successful woman that has
0:41been imposed on us is a mold of a
0:43sterile ideal of femininity. That is
0:47the successful woman, the woman who
0:49grows professionally, exhaustively, who
0:51develops her part,
0:53>> ends up, ends up alone. There is a
0:55phrase I always say, because I have
0:56lived it in my own flesh. Nothing
0:57prepares you to be a mother. Nothing,
0:59nothing. But being a mother prepares
1:00you for everything. Before we start,
1:08one quick thing. We have noticed that
1:10many of the people who watch our
1:12podcast are not subscribed to the
1:13channel. That is why I have a favor to
1:16ask you, which is to hit the subscribe
1:18button, because subscribing and sharing
1:20is also evangelizing and that way we
1:21can reach more people. Let's begin.
1:24Hello everyone and welcome to Rebeldes
1:26Podcast, this space where we want to
1:28share our Catholic doctrine, so deep,
1:30so beautiful, and which leads us on
1:32this path of fulfillment and happiness.
1:34And today I am with Mother Olga.
1:36Welcome, Mother Olga.
1:37>> Hello. How nice, what a joy to be here.
1:39I love it. You know that anything that
1:41involves cooperating with you, well, as
1:43a good rebel, well, here I am.
1:44>> Well, thank you very much, Mother. I am
1:46very excited about this podcast because
1:48today we have a conversation with us
1:49that is going to be different. Our
1:51guest is a university professor, uh, a
1:54jurist, and one of the best-known
1:57voices in Spain on education, family,
1:59and the difference between men and
2:02women. She is admired by many and
2:04questioned by others. She has spent
2:08years at the center of the cultural
2:10debate that touches on the most
2:11sensitive issues: motherhood,
2:13adolescence, feminism, masculinity, the
2:15family. She is María Calvo Charro, a
2:19tenured professor of administrative law
2:22at Carlos III University and author of
2:24such interesting books as" The Feminine
2:26Woman "or" Father and Mother in Woke
2:28Society. "That is why being able to
2:31talk about these things in the 21st
2:33century is a true act of rebellion.
2:35Well, welcome, María.
2:36>> How are you? Good morning. I love being
2:38here. Thank you.
2:39>> Well, thank you so much for coming to
2:41this podcast; we were really looking
2:42forward to sharing this time with you.
2:44Uh, and I wanted to start by asking you
2:46why you decided to jump into society to
2:49talk about these issues at this moment.
2:52>> Yes, wow, this started a long time ago,
2:54it started years back, I’d even say
2:5625 years ago. Uh, as you well said, I
3:00am a professor at Carlos III University
3:02, and a series of bills started to
3:04arrive there: uh, well, the abortion
3:06bill, same-sex marriage, and, later on,
3:09more recently, the comprehensive
3:11sexuality law, the family law—well,
3:13not family, because the word family
3:15doesn't appear, but the law for the
3:17protection of childhood and adolescence
3:20. So, a series of laws that, uh, made
3:24me question whether they were actually
3:26based on a correct anthropological
3:28concept. I was a legal expert; I never
3:31thought of studying sociology,
3:33anthropology, or psychology. Uh, I
3:35never had any special interest in the
3:36human being. I did have it for animals.
3:39I started in environmental law and
3:41wrote my doctoral thesis on the
3:42environment; I was very focused on the
3:44environment, and yet, curiously, in the
3:46end, I realized that I am indeed an
3:47environmentalist, but a human
3:49environmentalist, right? Human ecology,
3:51the defense of the human species. So,
3:54the Iberian lynx and the northern
3:56shoveler led me to man and woman,
3:58curiously, evidently guided by the Holy
4:00Spirit, because it’s true that I
4:02didn't have a path where I purposefully
4:04said," No, right now I'm leaving the
4:06environment to focus on the human being
4:08, "but rather, well, I let myself be
4:10carried along a bit while truly seeking
4:12whether those laws were just, whether
4:14those laws adapted to the
4:16anthropological concept and the
4:17rational human being, and for the
4:19common good. And well, by studying the
4:22laws, I realized that there has been a
4:23very serious anthropological rupture,
4:25right? A metaphysical revolt, and that
4:28they are laws that fragment us,
4:29deconstruct us, and do not seek the
4:31common good,
4:32>> right? How wonderful, María. I really
4:34want to share with everyone following
4:36us on the podcast why we wanted to have
4:37you here, and it's because listening to
4:39several of your interviews has really
4:41helped me to remember these foundations
4:43of Christian anthropology, especially
4:45in the middle of the 21st century,
4:46where we've been fostering a culture of
4:48death for decades. Right? Abortion,
4:52euthanasia, parents killing their
4:53children before they are born, children
4:54killing their parents before they die.
4:57I say, well, and instead, seeing
4:59someone who wants to propose a culture
5:01of life, as Saint John Paul II said,
5:03and at the same time speak with
5:04seriousness, with historical,
5:06philosophical, and psychological
5:08foundations about what a man or a woman
5:10is, in order to try to live in fullness
5:12and joy. I loved it. But let's go back
5:14to the beginning. Listen, María, you
5:16are Catholic.
5:17>> Yes. And, and what were you like as a
5:19child? How was your childhood? Tell us
5:21a little bit about it.
5:22>> I'm the youngest of eight. I was born a
5:25bit out of sync, as usually happens in
5:26large families, very out of sync. So,
5:28my parents were a bit like grandparents
5:30to me. They were already there. I
5:31always say that my mother was a mother,
5:33a relaxed mother, a carefree mother,
5:35right? Sweetly carefree, which is how I
5:37think we mothers should be a little bit
5:39, right? Stop controlling so much, stop
5:40protecting our children so much, and be
5:42more carefree, let ourselves go a
5:43little, right? Look a little more at
5:45providence. So, like a good eighth
5:47child, I grew up a bit wild, let's say,
5:49because obviously they had so many
5:52others to attend to who caused quite a
5:54few problems, as we all have, right?,in
5:56life. So, it was a very happy childhood
6:00, truthfully, I remember it as very
6:02happy, with many material needs, but
6:05that gave me the capacity, a creative
6:07capacity that I believe is fundamental.
6:11That is why right now I demand, let's
6:13say, I demand, I propose above all the
6:15need, right? The right to lack things.
6:17A child must have the right to lack, to
6:19go without things, because it awakens
6:20your creativity, it also awakens the
6:22desire to achieve things, and then you
6:24set out the means, right? I remember as
6:27an anecdote, well, as we lived on the
6:29edge economically, right? My father,
6:32for example, would grate the stale
6:33bread that was left over from the day
6:35before and give it to us as cereal. I
6:36mean, cereal was just stale bread, like
6:38breadcrumbs that had gone hard, you
6:40know? With horsetail tea. That was our
6:42cereal. To me, it seemed like something
6:43wonderful. That made me, for example,
6:45breakfast is the best meal of the day
6:47for me; it's the meal I love most. Give
6:48me a croissant and I think it’s gold,
6:50you know? It’s wonderful. And I also
6:52remember, for example, that since we
6:54didn't have the means—it was the time
6:55, when I was little, when
6:57battery-operated toys were starting to
6:58come out, you know? So there were these
7:01battery-operated dolls that walked or
7:02moved or took a bottle, and I wanted a
7:03battery-operated doll that could take a
7:04bottle. And of course, my mother said,"
7:07Look, María, we're not going to buy
7:09you one, just the typical doll that’s
7:10stiff, stiff and doesn't do anything. "
7:13And I remember making a hole in my doll
7:15. I said to myself, my doll is going to
7:17eat just like all my friends ', so I
7:19made a hole and stuffed regular food in
7:20there, you know? And, well, until it
7:23started to smell horrible, but I look
7:25back on it with happiness, that
7:27creative capacity, you know? Like, well
7:30, they won't give me this because I
7:31can't have it, but I'm going to get it
7:33somehow, you know? So, well, it’s a
7:35lack that ends up enriching you, I
7:37think.
7:37>> And you had a happy childhood,
7:39>> a very happy childhood, truthfully,
7:41with
7:41>> despite certain lacks, right? I'm
7:43listening to you and I think, for
7:45example, I recently spoke with a
7:46multi-millionaire,
7:47>> yes,
7:48>> who sold a company, has two children,
7:49and he told me," Look, Father,
7:51>> I have a 12-year-old son; his birthday
7:53arrived, and I asked him,' What do you
7:55want for your birthday? '"And he told
7:56me," Nothing. "
7:58>> Yes.
7:58>> And he says," I got worried. "I said,
8:00well, you should be worried because a
8:01child without desires...of course, in a
8:03welfare society where we want to give
8:04our children the best, and that's
8:05phenomenal, right? But when you say if
8:08they have so much that you kill their
8:09desire and their spark, whereas what I
8:11hear is that you lived in a home with,
8:13yes, certain lacks, though you surely
8:15had the essentials, right, but it
8:16awakened a desire, a strength, a
8:18toughness in you. Absolutely,
8:20absolutely. And also e What I
8:24definitely didn't lack was the presence
8:27of my father and mother, right? I mean,
8:29my mother was a very careless mother,
8:30careless in the sense that, well, she'd
8:31had eight, she was already like" I
8:32can't take any more, "but she was
8:33phenomenal. But yes, very tender, very
8:36loving, very sensitive, she knew how to
8:38listen very well, she would ask, she
8:40was interested, but she also gave a lot
8:42of freedom, I mean, she was very
8:43involved with us, she listened, but she
8:45gave freedom, right? She gave you those
8:48wonderful pieces of advice. Wonderful
8:49ones that I appreciate now, because
8:51before, when—especially in my
8:52adolescence—I was super rebellious,
8:54and my father was a very present father
8:55, very present. I had the fortune of
8:58being born when he was already quite
9:00old and, well, wonderful stories about
9:02El Cid Campeador, we would pick
9:04mushrooms and I remember, I remember
9:06the walks with him and washing dishes
9:08with him; I mean, a man who was an
9:10aviation general and would put on an
9:13apron, wash the dishes, I mean, he was
9:15a very involved man, right? So, I have
9:18a wonderful memory of my father and my
9:20mother.
9:21>> Was your family Catholic?
9:22>> Both Catholic, and my siblings have
9:24each gone their own way because my
9:26parents always respected our freedom,
9:27right? So, well, they gave us a great
9:29example, but
9:31>> And in what way were you rebellious?
9:33>> Phew, uh, let's see, uh...I was
9:35rebellious because, uh, my father,
9:37despite how wonderful parents they were
9:39, they were parents after all. So, well
9:42, they set limits, they said:" No. "Uh,
9:43they frustrated me a lot:" You're not
9:44going to this party dressed like that,
9:46you can't go. "Uh, you'd like to go to
9:48such and such school, but you're not
9:49going to go because we don't have the
9:50money, or to this place for the weekend
9:52, I don't know where, right? I mean,
9:54the" no, "the limit, uh, frustration
9:56was the order of the day. So,
9:58>> Did you run away from home like Mother
9:59Olga or not? But of course, let's see,
10:04any summer night, that was—and winter
10:06, too—that was a given, right? Yes,
10:09yes, because my father, let's say, uh,
10:11especially my father, what he exercised
10:13was authority, right? Power. So, within
10:15that authority, he gave freedom. So, uh
10:18, it was a relationship of reciprocal
10:20trust, right? I mean, I trusted my
10:22father that the limit was for my own
10:24good, but at that moment I didn't
10:25realize it. I thought that limit was
10:27just to annoy me, obviously,
10:30>> but he gave me a vote of confidence;
10:31he'd say," You can't go out tonight, "
10:33but he wouldn't lock the door. In other
10:35words, if you sneak out, it's your own
10:36responsibility and there will be
10:38consequences, right? And so, well, I
10:40was indeed rebellious in the sense of
10:42pushing past those limits, of
10:44disobeying, of being told no and doing
10:47it anyway. But in the exercise of my
10:49freedom, right? Of saying," Well, these
10:51are the limits. "The good thing, what I
10:53see as wonderful, is that I had those
10:55limits, which for me were like, well,
10:56those markers in the snow, right? And I
10:58knew what the path was, and within my
11:01freedom, I decided to go off the path
11:03and crash, but I was free to leave the
11:05path, yet I knew where the markers were
11:07, the guardrails, and that I could
11:09return, right? So, uh, I learned that
11:12later on, right? It seemed that way
11:14because, of course, I tried to break
11:15the guardrails, but the guardrails were
11:17still there. That always gives you a
11:19sense of security, a feeling of
11:20protection; it frees you from chaos and
11:22anxiety, right? So,
11:23>> you know, I’ve heard you talk about
11:24these guardrails and I remembered a
11:26drawing that showed the 10 Commandments
11:28,
11:29>> and it showed a road along some cliffs,
11:32and it says the...it lists the 10
11:34Commandments, right? And it makes you
11:37turn so you don't fall off the cliff.
11:39And when I heard you mention the
11:40guardrails, I thought a bit that it was
11:41like this. Listen, but, uh, have you
11:43always believed in God, or has there
11:45been some moment that was a turning
11:46point? Yes, well, I've had the fortune
11:49of always having faith, always. But a
11:52faith—interestingly, my youngest son
11:54asks me this a lot, he says," But, but,
11:55Mom, what kind of faith do you have? "
11:59Because I see my husband, he tries to
12:00enrich his faith a lot by reading, he
12:02reads incessantly, uh, well, the Desert
12:04Fathers, and he reads, anyway, really
12:06strange things, too, and in very rare
12:08languages, because he looks at many
12:10languages. So, I always see him reading
12:13intense things, right? And and and I
12:15read very little, I mean, I read a lot
12:17about psychology, sociology, but I read
12:19little theology and religious training
12:22because, let’s say, I have a very
12:24childlike faith,
12:26>> a very childlike faith. I I really
12:28identify with Thérèse of Lisieux,
12:32>> uh, because let's say I've always felt
12:34accompanied, I mean, it's a gift, it's
12:36a blessing I've always had, uh, I've
12:38always felt that God was with me,
12:40>> right? This is very beautiful. I think,
12:42Mother, you have also always had faith,
12:43haven't you?
12:44>> I I understand you perfectly on that
12:46because many people say to me," Hey,
12:47tell us about your conversion. "
12:49>> I say," I'm sorry, I don't have a
12:51specific moment to point to, like I
12:52left the church and then came back. "I
12:54mean, in that regard, I'm realizing as
12:56I listen to you that there is a part
12:58that they shared with you, right? It's
13:00the" nos, ""
13:02>> you can't have this, "" I want this
13:04thing, "well, like any girl might have
13:06asked for or wanted,
13:08>> no, it can't be because this month we
13:09have to do this and that, and we don't
13:11have the money for all of that. So that
13:14initially, as you say, it feels like,
13:16what a drag. But in the end, I think
13:19it's the same for you. Uh, I have been
13:21very grateful that my parents told me
13:23many times," It's not possible, ""
13:25>> we don't have the money, it's not
13:27possible. "No.
13:29>> Because I believe that, as a woman,
13:31that has forged me. It has forged my
13:33will, it has forged my heart. It didn't
13:36make me feel less loved, rather I
13:37learned that life is like that, and
13:38just because someone loves you doesn't
13:40mean everything has to be smooth
13:41sailing, sometimes the answer is no.
13:43>> And then the relationship with your
13:45father. I also had a very special
13:47relationship with my father because,
13:49for me, my father was the best. I love
13:51my mother very much, but for me, my
13:53father was something superior, it was
13:55almost akin to adoration, right? It was
13:57>> and I was the girl of
13:59>> and he was my father. For me, my father
14:01was the best. So for me, understanding
14:03that God was a father, that God is a
14:04father, was very easy. Yes.
14:05>> I mean, since there are people who have
14:07many wounds and it's complicated. For
14:09me, that has been easy and I think that
14:11has been part of my journey. I mean,
14:12it's like I never drifted away,
14:14>> because I had a father who served as a
14:16reference for me to understand what the
14:18other Father, who wasn't as close, was
14:20like, right? And in my child's mind, I
14:23understood it. So,
14:24>> you didn't have any kind of turning
14:26point, it was a process
14:28>> uh, in terms of faith, right? Well,
14:30faith matures and you go on changing,
14:32right? You stop being. But it also
14:34happens to me a bit like Mary, right?
14:36For me, Saint Therese, I mean, she says
14:38," Your love, Jesus, grew with me. "And
14:40that is the same as how I was growing
14:42biologically, psychologically, well,
14:45faith did too, really. There comes a
14:47time when it is true that you have to
14:48make that inherited faith your own,
14:50right? And say:" Let's see, I am Roman
14:52Catholic, Apostolic; not because my
14:53parents baptized me, but because I
14:55decide I want to follow this path. "I
14:57want to be Roman Catholic, Apostolic,
14:58and I take responsibility for it; it's
15:00no longer my parents taking
15:01responsibility; I mean, there comes a
15:03time when you have to assume that.
15:04>> but I don't have a moment in my life
15:06where I drifted away and then came back
15:08.
15:08>> No, I say this because many people are
15:10encountering God now, they do an impact
15:12retreat, right? Emmaus, Bartimaeus, I
15:15go to a Hakuna retreat, spiritual army,
15:17or a pilgrimage, and I convert. And I,
15:20myself, my family is very Catholic, and
15:22I remember, I've been going to daily
15:24Mass since I was 7. I mean, I think
15:26about it now and say, but at 15 I
15:27thought the best decision of my life
15:29was to stop going to Mass. Yes,
15:32>> But it didn't last long, because of the
15:34emptiness, and then I looked for the
15:35chapel and had a moment of conversion.
15:37And for me, it was a moment, but
15:38perhaps some people say:" I haven't
15:40converted from zero to a hundred or
15:41fallen off my horse like Saint Paul,
15:43right? "But this process is important,
15:45though it may take a few years for you
15:47to see it by the fruits. A few years
15:48have passed, and I say," And now I have
15:49Jesus Christ at the center of my life,
15:50right? "
15:50>> Yes, yes, yes, yes. I truly feel very
15:52privileged there because I have always
15:54felt very accompanied. So I have always
15:56assumed, perhaps even abusing God's
15:58presence, right? Saying," Well, you are
16:00with me, I know you sustain me, I know
16:02you are there and if I stray, well, I
16:03will come back. "I mean, with a lot of
16:06peace, with a lot of innocence, right?
16:08A, I mean, a very childlike faith, but
16:10one I still have because every day I
16:12see Him very present. Nature helps me a
16:14lot, I mean, for me nature is
16:16fundamental. Eh, I take huge walks
16:18because I have two huge dogs; eh, dogs,
16:20not" fur babies. "But, but I take them
16:22out to the countryside every day: a
16:24wonderful countryside, mountain, wild
16:26mountain. And, and seeing the flowers
16:28that come out in spring, seeing it dry
16:30up in summer, seeing the rain, seeing
16:32the...That is God to me. So, I see Him
16:34very close. I think I couldn't do it in
16:36a city, in a big city, it would be much
16:38harder for me. So, seeing God in nature
16:41, wow, it revitalizes me every day. I
16:43see Him, I see Him very, very close.
16:46And
16:46>> and what helps you today to hear the
16:48voice of God?
16:49>> Oh my goodness, the voice of God, I
16:51mean, I hear it at all, at all hours. I
16:53mean, I feel very accompanied always,
16:55right? So I always have, what I call, a
16:58coffee with Him and with Mary. I always
17:00have my coffee hour and my coffee hour
17:01is, well, what am I going to do today?
17:03What did I do yesterday, how awful was
17:05I? How terrible, and so on. So, hm hm
17:08it the readings I do as well, phew, are
17:14leading me a lot into research on man
17:16and woman; in the end they lead you to
17:18God, there is no other way. There is no
17:21other way. It could be sociology,
17:23psychology, eh pedagogy or psychiatry,
17:25but in the end it's God.
17:27>> And why? Why does it lead you to God?
17:29Well, for example, I have written, I
17:31have searched and I have researched
17:34about woman, I have researched about
17:37motherhood and I arrive at Mary, I mean
17:43, all the, all the paths, all the
17:45investigations lead me to Mary, all of
17:47them. It's impressive. It's impressive.
17:50Whether you are a believer or not a
17:52believer, Mary is a model of woman and
17:55mother that is absolutely modern,
17:57progressive. Eh, it's amazing, it's
18:00revolutionary.
18:02>> Look, to give you an example, Mariolina
18:04Ceriotti, a magnificent Italian
18:06neuropsychiatrist, wrote a book where,
18:08based on her experience, she concludes
18:10that women have two parts: an erotic
18:13part and a maternal part. And that is
18:15what the book is called, right? Erotic
18:16and Maternal. A maternal part, a
18:17psychological maternal imprint that is
18:19unavoidable, because we are prepared to
18:20bring life into the world, right?,and
18:22to transform the world, which is an
18:23immense power we have, even if we don't
18:24perceive it. And then an erotic part as
18:27a woman, and a woman's balance lies in
18:29those two parts, right? So I always
18:31tell young people when I speak to them:
18:33" Do not lose your maternal side, which
18:35is the side of tenderness; you can be a
18:36mother without being a mother
18:38physically, because clearly, it is not
18:39a woman's inescapable end, but rather
18:41you can be a spiritual mother and, even
18:43if you are not a mother and even if you
18:45are, you must mother the world, right?
18:46". Seeing the world with eyes of
18:48tenderness, with a mother's eyes, which
18:49is also something we have lost a lot
18:51because they make us believe it is a
18:52weakness and a defect, but no, that is
18:54our greatest power. But then an erotic
18:56part of self-love, of love for myself,
18:58first as a wife, as a woman, and as a
19:00professional; I have to love myself, I
19:02can't be only a mother, all mother, too
19:04much mother. So, it is true that in
19:07every woman's life process, there is a
19:09moment when one of the two parts
19:11prevails. The self-love part comes in
19:13and consumes the maternal part, saying,
19:14" I don't want to be a mother, I don't
19:15want to know anything about children, I
19:16want to advance myself. "Of course,
19:18self-love is very good, you have to
19:20love yourself, but without the maternal
19:22part of tenderness, which is openness
19:23toward others, you become
19:24self-referential. And there is another
19:27possibility, which is that when we are
19:28mothers, the maternal part devours the
19:30erotic one, and then you are only a
19:32mother, all mother, you live for your
19:33children and because of your children,
19:35and you have a child-centric life where
19:36the children are the reason for your
19:38existence. That is a mistake. If you
19:41look at Mary, Mary is the perfect
19:43balance. It actually gives you
19:45goosebumps to think about it. She is
19:48the mother of God, mother of the Savior
19:49. Well, she would be all mother, only
19:51mother. I mean, if someone told me I
19:53was the mother of God, I would go crazy
19:55controlling, protecting, overprotecting
19:57, because that creature is God and I
19:59have to preserve Him. Well, no. Mary
20:02was extremely balanced; Mary had her
20:04erotic side, that is, her side of
20:06self-love.
20:07>> Hey, excuse me. The erotic concept, we
20:11aren't talking about the eroticism
20:14derived from self-love, are we? No,
20:17indeed, it is love for oneself. That's
20:19why we must clarify
20:20>> and love as something passionate. Plato
20:22called it the divine madness where the
20:24other person attracts you and you want
20:25to possess them, but you have to mature
20:27it, right? With agape, love. Okay. This
20:30is the ero—because sometimes we
20:31confuse it today, due to pornography
20:33and our hyper-sexualized society, with
20:35Freud's eroticism, right? But it is
20:36much deeper. That's why one wanted to,
20:42to know you, to embrace you. Well,
20:44Saint Thomas Aquinas said it, didn't he
20:45? Only if I love myself can I resist
20:46that which could destroy me. And that
20:48is a reality. I mean, loving myself by
20:50embracing my miseries, my flaws, my
20:52shortcomings, right? So, saying," Well,
20:54this is who I am, and I have to embrace
20:56myself this way to change what I can
20:57change and accept what I cannot accept,
20:59"right? Because often, then, Mary is
21:01seen as a mother and as a woman, a
21:03balance, some details from the Bible
21:05that we don't think about. Many times,
21:09Mary was not just a mother, all-mother;
21:11the motherhood of Jesus didn't make her
21:13go crazy as a mother. Mary, only a few
21:17months pregnant, goes to see Elizabeth;
21:19she is a woman too, and as a woman, she
21:21has a cousin who needs her help, and,
21:23okay, I am waiting for the Savior, but
21:25this woman needs me and I am a woman
21:27too. So, I see young women now who get
21:30pregnant and seem fragile, like they
21:32can't do anything, saying," I can't
21:33lend a hand "and" I can't help because
21:35I'm so pregnant, "and no...and you say,
21:37" But let's see, you have to continue
21:39being a woman if you feel well. "Right.
21:41Mary, on dirt roads, risking her life.
21:45She went to see Elizabeth, fully
21:47pregnant with the Savior.
21:49>> And Mary, forgive me, but if I start
21:50talking about Mary, she loses Jesus. I
21:53mean, what kind of mother loses Jesus?
21:55I mean, she lost the Savior because she
21:57wasn't a super-protective mother,
21:58obsessed with the child, no. Mary was
22:02with Joseph, I mean, her husband comes
22:03first, and then the child. It’s very
22:06strong to say, and right now we women
22:08go crazy with our children and the
22:09children come first. We lead a life
22:11super-centered on the children, and for
22:12our husband, it's over when they're
22:14born. So you say, Mary, Mary is my
22:16reference. I mean, how modern to say, I
22:19mean, right now you lose your child for
22:20three days, you go to jail. Mary lost
22:23Jesus. She lost Jesus for three days
22:26because she had a relationship of trust
22:28with Jesus, and because she was with
22:29Joseph, and because she wasn't just a
22:31mother, she was a woman, a friend, a
22:32partner, she did other things. So you
22:35say," How great, how great, what a
22:37woman. "
22:38>> I can say another another thought.
22:42>> It's just that, of course, I've arrived
22:43at this, I've arrived through
22:45psychology and sociology and you say,
22:46well, in the end, it leads you to Mary.
22:49We mothers have a very serious problem,
22:51which is that we take ownership of
22:53their lives, especially now that we
22:54have few, planned, scheduled late, and
22:56this child is my child. We are like the
22:59mother in King Solomon's judgment, the
23:00judgment of Solomon, that it's my son
23:01and if you want him you have to cut him
23:03in half. We are like that. So it costs
23:06us a lot, let's say, we give biological
23:08life, but it costs us a lot to release
23:09our children to society, to take them
23:11out, to give them freedom so they can
23:13get lost, so they can stray, so they
23:15can suffer, so they can overcome
23:16obstacles, so they can develop their
23:18life's project. It costs us a huge
23:21amount. So, we keep them a bit in a
23:23limbo of the unreal and we want to keep
23:25them close to us always. Oh, Mary is
23:28the model of a woman, of a perfect
23:30mother in that sense, because the
23:32wedding at Cana impacts me. It impacts
23:35me how Mary tells Jesus," It's your
23:37moment, you have to go out. "" And how
23:39Jesus says,' Hey, hey, hey, no, 'it's
23:41dizzying, because of course, it's the
23:42moment, it's a second birth, right? "
23:44The birth to the public world, to the
23:45outside world. You're not coming back
23:47home and you're going to end up how
23:48you're going to end up, I mean, it's,
23:49it's tremendous. I'm going to have my
23:51heart raw. Because for mothers, when
23:53our children leave us, it's raw, right?
23:55And how few mothers do that, saying,
23:57well, son, go ahead, take the leap,
23:59it’s your moment, you’re going to
24:01suffer, but I mean, how few mothers,
24:03right? And Mary, despite everything,
24:05come on, bring some water. Jesus,
24:07it’s your moment, it’s your moment,
24:08you have to go out there, right? I mean
24:10, you say, how incredible. I mean, a
24:12role model.
24:14>> She was clear about it from the
24:15beginning, because now that you say
24:17that, there is another little detail in
24:18the Gospel that has always caught my
24:20attention, right? It says that when
24:22Jesus is born in Bethlehem, she wraps
24:24him in swaddling clothes and lays him
24:26in the manger. I mean, she’s already
24:29giving him to us, because any new
24:30mother just wants to take her child and
24:32hold him close and say he’s my baby,
24:33right? Especially a firstborn who just
24:36arrived. She wraps him and lays him
24:39down. I mean, she’s clear that
24:40she’s his mother. Obviously, she just
24:42gave birth to him, but he isn't just
24:44for her. I mean, she gives him away. He
24:45is my son, but he is for all of you.
24:47That’s it, we start losing them from
24:49the moment they are born, and as
24:50mothers we aren't aware of that, but
24:52Mary was. Mary, he isn't mine, he isn't
24:54mine. The thing is
24:55>> she knows it, she is clear about it
24:56from the very moment she conceives him,
24:58right? But well, in the end, what is
25:01human and normal is to hoard your child
25:03. And the child is like—I wouldn't
25:06know because I’m not a biological
25:08mother—but from what I’ve seen and
25:09what you biological mothers tell me,
25:10the child is like your little idol as
25:12soon as he is born.
25:13>> Absolutely.
25:14>> From having him in your womb to having
25:15him outside as close as possible, right
25:17? Uh, letting go of that must not be
25:19easy. And she, as you say—I love what
25:22you’re saying about the Virgin
25:23because few women speak about our
25:25mother like that, right? She is the
25:27perfect woman,
25:28>> perfect. What—what modernity, what
25:30tremendous modernity. And—and what
25:32maturity, what impressive maturity,
25:34right?
25:35>> Hey, speaking of the Virgin—we hadn't
25:36planned this, but I want to dive in
25:38because your words have inspired me.
25:39>> Mary loved Jesus, but also with a
25:41healthy emotional independence that
25:43gives you freedom. Now there is a
25:45hyper-emotional dependency on the
25:46husband, the children, the boyfriend,
25:48but that healthy emotional independence
25:50gives you the freedom to love. But I
25:52want to talk to you about a topic, and
25:54it is—uh—you mentioned the Wedding
25:55at Cana.
25:56>> And it impresses me because Jesus also
25:59teaches his mother, Mary, that she is
26:01going to be the mother of all men. And
26:04to me, when you talk about Cana, there
26:05is a moment when, uh, Mary says to
26:07Jesus," They have no wine, "she notices
26:09our needs, right? And then Jesus said
26:11some words to her that people sometimes
26:12don't understand. He says," Uh, mother,
26:14what is that to me and to thee? "
26:16>> That is.
26:17>> No, the literal in Greek is what
26:18between you and me, that is, what
26:19relationship between you and me?
26:21Because, and I learned this from the
26:22Venerable Fulton Sheen, who is in the
26:24process of beatification, he said,
26:25paraphrasing: Mother, once I perform
26:27this miracle, you will no longer simply
26:29be the mother of Jesus, the carpenter
26:30of Nazareth, but you will begin a
26:32process to be the mother of all men,
26:34the mother of all humanity. That is why
26:37he calls her woman, what between you
26:38and me, the same word woman that
26:39appears in Genesis when it speaks of
26:41Eve. She is the new Eve, right? So I
26:43love it. There is a process I learned
26:45from Fulton Sheen who said how Mary
26:47says do whatever he tells you, right?
26:49He performs this miracle and there it
26:50begins by an invitation from his mother
26:52with that motherly love but at the same
26:54time free, as Mary was. And another
26:56moment arrives in the Gospel in which
26:57they bring Jesus his cousins and he is
26:59with a lot of people and they say," He
27:01has gone mad. "" He has gone mad. "No.
27:03And so, and they say to him," Hey, your
27:04mother and your brothers are there. "He
27:06says," No, my mother and my brothers
27:08are those who do the will of my Father.
27:09"Those are my brother and my and my
27:11mother and my brother and my father,
27:13all my family are those who do the will
27:14of God. Yes.
27:15>> And it takes you directly to John 19:
27:1825-27 on the cross,
27:20>> which is when Jesus says to her," Woman
27:23, behold your son. "The same word woman
27:25, the new Eve, right? So it is a
27:27process in which Jesus is leading his
27:29mother to be not only his mother, but
27:31the mother of all humanity, right? And
27:33when I was listening to you, I really
27:35remembered what a wonder this process
27:36was that Jesus did with his mother and
27:38how Mary has been the perfect woman,
27:39right?
27:40>> Yes, yes, yes. Well, uh, also, look, I
27:43have derived from those texts, uh, the
27:46idea of the idea of the relativity of
27:51blood ties. Really the idea of the
27:53relativity of blood ties,
27:55>> that is, we have...it's just that right
27:56now we are living in a moment where
27:58blood has thickened significantly. Um,
28:00we place a lot of importance, for
28:02example, in marriage. I think that
28:05marriage has that problem because we
28:07give much more importance to the blood
28:08relationship with the family of origin
28:10and with the children than to the
28:12relationship with the partner, with the
28:14husband, with the spouse. That is to
28:17say, the spouse comes first; the spouse
28:19comes first and then the blood
28:21relationship. So that...that
28:23relativization, let's say, of the blood
28:25relationship that appears in the
28:27gospels, well...we have actually
28:29thickened it, and we prioritize the
28:31children over the husband and we
28:33prioritize my family of origin over the
28:35husband or over the wife, right? You
28:38say, we are making a mistake. We are
28:39making a mistake, aren't we? Correct me
28:41, please. But in your errors, where
28:43does it lead you, for example, to place
28:45>> prioritizing? Prioritizing, uh,
28:47forgetting your spouse in favor of the
28:49children; that is, uh, whatever the
28:50children want, whatever the children
28:52need. Children first: what are we doing
28:54on the weekend? Whatever the children
28:55want. What's for dinner? Whatever the
28:56children want. Is the child crying? The
28:58child comes first. And maybe your
28:59husband is, or your wife, having a
29:00serious problem and demanding your
29:02attention, but your world revolves
29:03around the children. Or" I can't attend
29:05to you because, well, my parents, "and
29:06I go to my parents' house, and my
29:07parents first, and my parents, and my
29:09parents, and my parents, and my parents
29:10are perfectly fine. I mean, what I want
29:11to say is, when there is no serious
29:13need for care, prioritizing the family
29:14of origin. Sure, it's just that my
29:16parents did so much for me, yes, but if
29:17they did so much for you, now they have
29:18to give you your freedom. Indeed, that
29:20freedom that María Jesús gives of fly
29:22, fly. That is, the family of origin
29:24cannot be sclerotizing, right? We also
29:26see that in the gospel itself. It's
29:27just that, you see, the gospel is
29:29really something, uh, sorry, but we
29:31forgive you completely. I mean, I don't
29:35do it, I don't do it on purpose, but it
29:36keeps leading me to the gospel. It is
29:38the good news. At the end of the day
29:40you say, it's incredible, it's just
29:42mind-blowing, but all that is
29:43well-covered in psychology books. I
29:45mean, I could start listing them here,
29:46uh, psychologists, psychiatrists who
29:48tell you:" No, no, your spouse has to
29:50come first, "and even non-believers:"
29:52Put your spouse first so that the
29:53marriage... "And we even have the
29:55gospels: Joseph and Mary, uh, God, the
29:56divine plan, placed them miles away
29:58from their original family, in Egypt.
30:01They didn't understand a word, pagan
30:02gods with a child, there alone,
30:04completely on their own to build a
30:05marriage, right? They didn't bring
30:07their in-laws along with them. So we
30:08don't end up here setting up a clan. So
30:10you say, in the beginning it wasn't
30:11like that, was it? Adam and Eve in the
30:12beginning weren't born with in-laws or
30:14children, right?
30:14>> Maria, why do you think?
30:16>> Oh, correct me, please, because, of
30:17course,
30:18>> why do you think that in this moment we
30:20are living in, exactly what you are
30:21saying is happening, right? That people
30:24lean so much towards, well, your blood
30:26relatives, your parents, family, or
30:28your descendants
30:30>> and push aside the only one you've
30:32chosen, which is your spouse, because
30:33the others were given to you. I mean, I
30:35didn't choose my parents, they just
30:36came to me. My children, well, God gave
30:38them to me. They just came that way.
30:39The only one I have truly chosen is my
30:41spouse. So, if it's the only person I
30:44have truly chosen,
30:46>> why does it happen? Why do you think
30:49it's happening that we push aside what
30:51we have freely chosen and somehow
30:52prioritize what has been given to us or
30:54what we've been dealt, I mean, what you
30:56haven't chosen? Why? Why is there
31:00>> that stance now? Why do you think this
31:01happens? Yes, I think we have lost the
31:03ability to love within marriage. I mean
31:06, we don't realize what marriage is,
31:07honestly. Marriage is saying yes to one
31:10person exclusively and perpetually and
31:12saying no to others to a large extent,
31:14even to your family of origin if it has
31:16to be, and to your children. That hurts
31:19a lot. It seems unnatural, but it's not
31:21. It is what is natural. It is Mary who
31:24leaves Jesus in the manger; effectively
31:25, children are descendants, they are
31:27not property, and they have to leave.
31:29And you were saying, the only person we
31:30have freely chosen, and yet we discard
31:32them, right? In the end, many times we
31:35know how to love our parents and our
31:36children, even when our feelings aren't
31:38there; I mean, love as an exercise of
31:40will, which is what it is—deciding to
31:42love and saying," I'm going to make you
31:44happy. "And many times we can't stand
31:47our parents, yet we don't abandon them;
31:48we stay right there by their side,
31:50thinking," well, this will work out, "
31:51and our children—what can I say? I
31:54mean, we let ourselves be mistreated,
31:56shall we say, by our children many
31:58times, right? When they are teenagers,
32:00we love them even when they least
32:01deserve it, because that is when they
32:03need it most, and we stay by their side
32:04; why don't we do that with our spouse?
32:06The spouse does some little thing that
32:07hurts us, and we immediately distance
32:09ourselves and want nothing more to do
32:10with them. So, I think we have lost
32:13that capacity to love precisely the
32:15person we have freely chosen, and we
32:17don't realize that they are the person
32:19we have to die with, right? We have
32:22lost that capacity to see that this is
32:25the person, well, the one I am going to
32:29grow old with and die with, the one I
32:31will spend the best and worst moments
32:32with, the one I will share everything
32:34with; I always cite a book by Mark
32:36Twain called The Diary of Adam and Eve,
32:38right? And I always say that my ideal
32:42in life is to be able to say what Adam
32:44is supposed to have said in that little
32:45book when Eve passed away:" Wherever
32:47she was, there was paradise. "Well, I
32:49hope I can say that when my husband
32:51passes away, if he passes before me, or
32:53that he can say it, even with all our
32:55crises, conflicts, and constantly
32:56throwing plates at each other. But I
32:59also have to say one thing: the
33:01conflicts we have had, and this is
33:03something very personal, have always
33:05come from a misinterpretation of blood
33:08relations. That is to say, from
33:10prioritizing our family of origin,
33:12which has created conflict in the
33:14couple, or from prioritizing the
33:15children, which has created conflict.
33:19So you say, we have to be very clear
33:20because it's true that love has its
33:22place, and the spouse's love, the place
33:24of the spouse's love must be a priority
33:26, and we lose sight of it, we lose it
33:28quickly, right? And we lean towards my
33:31parents who have loved me so much, love
33:32me so much, my children need me so much
33:34. Well, if they love you so much, let
33:36them give you freedom. Freedom to leave
33:37, to uproot yourself, right? I mean,
33:39sometimes to find yourself again you
33:41have to lose yourself a little and
33:42uproot yourself a little, separate
33:44yourself and
33:45>> And don't you think, María, that what
33:47educates children most is seeing that
33:48their parents love each other, that
33:50they are in love, that they even have a
33:51bit of an erotic spark in the good
33:52sense of the word, right? It is, I
33:54think that is what educates the most.
33:56But I wanted to ask you, uh, what is
33:58love, because many people, right? This
34:00word is perhaps a bit distorted, there
34:02are many meanings. What is love?
34:04>> Yes, yes. Love, of course, can be
34:08accompanied by feelings or not, but
34:09there are many occasions when it is not
34:11accompanied by feelings. Uh, love is
34:12thinking of the other before oneself. I
34:15mean, love has a lot of cognitive, a
34:17lot of rational, because among other
34:19things if we are Catholic, it is the
34:21only way to love our enemies. How am I
34:23going to love my enemy if I let myself
34:24be carried away by feelings? It's
34:26impossible. If an enemy of mine makes
34:28my stomach turn, I can't be guided, I
34:30can't love him. Uh, to love is to think
34:32of the other. So, I think of the other,
34:34doing things for the other, doing good
34:36things for the other, even if feelings
34:37don't accompany it, right? And
34:39sometimes, uh, this happens with
34:40children and it happens with parents,
34:42but it happens a lot in marriage, right
34:43? That in marriage, sometimes the
34:45feelings don't accompany it. Why? Well
34:47because, uh, if we have built that
34:49marriage well on a love of friendship,
34:51which is a love of intimacy, which is a
34:53love of opening up, which is a love of
34:55you being my best friend, me being your
34:57best friend; then you know me, uh, in
34:59all, in all my good facets, in my
35:00virtues, those I might have, but you
35:02also know me in my weaknesses,
35:04imperfections, miseries. So, that makes
35:06you very vulnerable, very vulnerable.
35:09And I wanted to share with you, Maria,
35:11one of the things that impacted me most
35:13when I was young, in my second year of
35:15college, I was studying business, I had
35:16a girlfriend at the time, and I read an
35:18encyclical by Benedict called Deus
35:20Caritas Est, right? Where he explains
35:22the two-thousand-year-old Catholic
35:24concept of love that we have, right?
35:26And he says that love, the best
35:27definition we have, right? Which
35:29Aristotle takes and Saint Thomas uses
35:30in the catechism, which is what you're
35:31saying, right? Is to seek the good of
35:33the beloved. Love is seeking the good
35:34of the beloved, but that feels too
35:35small for us, right? Yes, so we use the
35:38word love in a way that is a bit too
35:40broad, and we say," I love soccer, I
35:43love Real Madrid, I love a friend, I
35:45love a family member, I love God, "but
35:48of course, the meaning is very
35:50different. So, in Greek, three are used
35:53, right? Which are eros, philia, and
35:55agape. And then there is storge, but
35:57it's used less, right? And eros, which
35:58is the concupiscible love that awakens
36:00when you see the other and want to love
36:02them, right? Like that infatuation,
36:04that passion, those butterflies in the
36:06stomach. Philia, which is love between
36:07equals, I learned it with C.S. Lewis.
36:09And then agape, which is the love that
36:11seeks the good of the beloved, giving
36:13oneself unconditionally for the other,
36:15right? And so, how eros, that initial
36:17love—for me, it was enlightening to
36:20read this—
36:22>> has to mature with an agape that seeks
36:23the good of the other, but agape also
36:25needs eros, that erotic dimension you
36:26mentioned, because otherwise, we seem
36:27like robots, right? it's love. And
36:33really, I understand that while the
36:34Church is fundamentally about will,
36:36it's about the whole human being:
36:37intelligence, will, affections, body;
36:39you must love with everything you are,
36:41because a Catholic is neither repressed
36:42nor a libertine slave to their passions
36:44, right? How do you, how do you...
36:46>> Of course, of course, well, I am
36:47passionate about the Song of Songs,
36:49right? King Solomon fascinates me. And
36:51he plays with those three loves very
36:53well, right? Love of friendship first,
36:55love of commitment second, and then
36:57erotic love, sexual love, right? And
36:59once again, you see the light, you see
37:01the light, and you say," How well-made
37:03this is, how well-thought-out it is. "
37:05First, love of friendship, which is the
37:06love of intimacy, right? I share, I
37:08share my intimacy, I make myself
37:10vulnerable, I open up to you, you know
37:11my flaws, shortcomings, weaknesses, and
37:13then I embrace you as you are. That is
37:16to say, I love my husband with all the
37:18virtues he has, which are many, that I
37:19could mention here, but also with all
37:21his shortcomings, which he also has. I
37:25mean, I don't try to change him, I
37:26don't try to, eh, throw anything in his
37:28face, I don't try to complete him; he
37:30is how he is, he has some shortcomings,
37:31some imperfections—which I also have
37:33—brutal ones, but I love them, I love
37:34them, I embrace them, right? And and
37:37now I I start to laugh because I think
37:39about them and I think about them
37:40smilingly, about how grumpy he is or
37:42his lack of empathy or whatever, and I
37:44think of it with affection, of course.
37:45I mean, I give them a touch of
37:46affection and also of wonder, right?
37:48And I think we have lost the capacity
37:49to be amazed, right? After all, that
37:51love of knowledge also implies knowing
37:53that the other is a man, that he is a
37:56man, that he is not like me, who am a
37:58woman. And so he is going to do things
38:00in that way, he is going to think in
38:01that way, and I cannot love what I
38:05understand. Of course I can love what I
38:06do not understand. I believe that
38:08matrimonial love, and perhaps spiritual
38:10love as well, is faithfulness in
38:13incomprehension.
38:14>> Yes.
38:15>> I don't understand many of the things
38:16he does. Well, Joseph and Mary did not
38:17understand Jesus. It also happens with
38:19children, right? I don't understand
38:20many things he does because he is a man
38:22, because he is a man, eh? And he does
38:24them in a totally different way, his
38:25own way, and yet I love him in that
38:27incomprehension.
38:28>> And how do you fall in love with those
38:30limitations and defects of your husband
38:32?
38:33>> Well, come on,
38:34>> is it like a resigned acceptance, or
38:35what is it?
38:35>> No, no, no, no. Eh, eh, you look at it
38:38with tenderness, with tenderness,
38:40because of course, I also have those
38:42shortcomings. So, this is bidirectional
38:44. If he is capable of loving my
38:46miseries—which I won't mention here,
38:48I have some dreadful ones—and he
38:49loves me, and he loves me. I mean, it's
38:51a transgression, it's such a
38:52transgressive love, it's brutal. I mean
38:54, who loves us with our defects,
38:55shortcomings, weaknesses, imperfections
38:57, while being a mess? God, and that's
38:59really it, isn't it? So, if you find a
39:01person who embraces you with all that,
39:03it's brutal. It's brutal. I remember at
39:05a funeral where they told the widow,"
39:08Oh, your husband was so affectionate
39:10and patient. "And she stopped the
39:12person who was saying it. She said," No
39:13, excuse me, he had a horrible temper,
39:15he was unbearable, but I loved him. I
39:17loved him. "I mean, that is the reality
39:18. It's a love that isn't ideal; we
39:20shouldn't idealize it. I mean, we are
39:22who we are, but we love each other. And
39:24after that love of friendship, of
39:26intimacy, where we've made ourselves so
39:27vulnerable, I mean, he knows things
39:29about me that only I know, I know
39:30things about him that are...So, of
39:31course, that is a treasure. No one
39:34knows things about me that he knows. I
39:36mean, that's tremendous, right?
39:37>> Hey, well, tell us when you met your
39:39husband. Wait, I need to know this.
39:41>> Come on, tell us.
39:43>> Uh, well, at university I arrived at my
39:46first year and you studied
39:48>> law at the Complutense
39:51>> and then my husband, the rascal that he
39:53was, came in to do the famous hazing.
39:56He was in his fourth year and we had
39:58canon law at the time, and he came in
40:00dressed as a priest to teach the class.
40:03>> What a character, right?
40:04>> What a bad, bad, bad, bad character. He
40:06really wasn't a good person. Well, my
40:08father already warned me, my
40:11>> he came in to teach the canon law class
40:13, so he came in scaring the living
40:14daylights out of us, and we were
40:15first-years, all scared stiff, him
40:17scaring us, saying we were all going to
40:18fail, and I don't know what else. So,
40:22well, that was a hazing and that fake
40:23priest, who would have guessed I'd end
40:25up with him, right? Your life is
40:29amazing.
40:29>> 30-something years later. And then
40:31later we started running into each
40:32other at parties, right? The typical
40:35parties in the basements of the
40:36Complutense and, well, he tried to make
40:39certain approaches to me and I was very
40:41tough because I didn't like the hazing
40:43he did at all.
40:46>> I didn't like him, I didn't like him. I
40:48didn't like him. I also remember that
40:50on one occasion I, of course, as the
40:51eighth child in a large family, didn't
40:53have money to buy my books and I said
40:54to him, I approached him and said," Hey
40:56, would you lend me your first-year
40:57books? "And he told me no. And then I
41:00said," But what kind of person are you?
41:02I mean, I don't want to know anything
41:03about you.
41:03>> How rude.
41:04>> Yes, horrible. "So, when he started
41:05making moves on me, I was like, no."
41:08And well, eh, he stayed there, standing
41:10his ground for many months, until
41:12finally, I started seeing him and such,
41:14and that's where the love began. The
41:18love of emotion, of feeling, the virus
41:21love, as I call viral love. The
41:24falling-in-love virus bit me, I mean, I
41:25went crazy for him, but crazy, I mean,
41:27just crazy, crazy, to the point where
41:29my heart ached when I wasn't with him.
41:31I mean, that love of feelings where you
41:32say, "My God, I can't be away from him
41:34for even a second.""And in fact, he
41:35started studying for his board exams
41:36when he finished. Of course, he was in
41:38his fourth year and I was in my first."
41:39He started studying for exams, he shut
41:41himself away in the convent of El
41:43Paular, in Rascafría, they accepted
41:44him there with the Paúles. And I, I
41:47suffered the separation so much, I mean
41:50, I suffered physically, it was a
41:52passionate, passionate love.
41:54>> You were very dependent, as they say
41:56now, weren't you? Or was it simply
41:57passionate? It was, uh
42:00>> or did it mature? It matured, obviously
42:03, but at that moment, I just wanted him
42:05to pass his exams, get married, and
42:07spend the rest of my life with him. I
42:08mean, I had that passionate and
42:10uncontrollable love that I suffered
42:12from. Indeed, you were in love. In love
42:15>> with every fiber of your being, well,
42:16the way one falls in love, right?
42:18>> And when did you get married?
42:20>> Well, look, he passed his exams, and
42:22the next day I told him, look, either
42:23we get married now or—indeed, indeed,
42:25indeed. So, well, immediately after he
42:28passed the exams, we set...we got
42:30married in January, in the freezing
42:32cold, and we didn't care because he had
42:34just passed his exams and we wanted, we
42:36wanted to live together, obviously, to
42:38commit to each other. An idea comes to
42:40mind, as such a passionate woman,
42:42because it shows a little, you know? So
42:45much so, eh, why did you choose a law
42:47career? Yes, I don't know, maybe I'm
42:50biased, but I imagine all the jurists
42:52in the world with very rigid,
42:53square-minded heads and very little
42:54passion, so I just don't see you
42:56fitting in. And why did you think about
42:58studying law? And the other question
43:00that comes to mind is, at what point in
43:03your life did you, uh, make that
43:05decision? Because I imagine it must
43:07have been a decision to speak publicly
43:09about all these topics
43:11>> that are linked to anthropology,
43:13>> to the defense of human beings and of
43:15human dignity, which is so beaten down
43:17and which, in principle, don't have
43:19much to do with the law, and even less
43:21the kind of law you do, because you
43:23told me you were dedicated to solving
43:25things like, if you have a fine, I'll
43:27tell you how...
43:28>> you told me that once.
43:29>> Yes, yes, well, I don't know why I
43:31studied law, honestly. I studied law
43:32for two reasons: one, to go against my
43:34father, because my father was military,
43:36but he was also a psychologist. He used
43:38to tell me, "María, you would be a
43:38good psychologist." I said, "What are
43:39you talking about?" No, I mean, my
43:40father said, "Be a psychologist." I
43:42said, "No way.""
43:45>> Because you're not a psychologist, but
43:47you live like one."
43:48>> I would have loved it, and now I think
43:49about it and say, "Oh my God, why don't
43:51we ever listen to our parents?" So, uh,
43:53well, law was...my choice was limited:
43:56either veterinary medicine or law, I
43:59mean, nothing else at all. So,
44:02veterinary medicine, I loved animals,
44:03I'm passionate about them. And, uh, but
44:06not veterinary medicine because, in
44:07physics and chemistry, it’s dreadful,
44:09I’m terrible at it. So then I said,
44:11well, nothing, veterinary or law, so,
44:13law. I don't know why, I have no family
44:15background in it, I don't, I don't know
44:17why, I have no idea. So, uh, it had to
44:19be law because I already knew my
44:21husband, and I don't think anyone could
44:24love me like he does, honestly. But to
44:28love in the sense that's no longer just
44:29passionate, because of course, we
44:30actually get married and one marries
44:31and realizes that suddenly that whole
44:33soufflé just...it passes, the passion
44:38fades, and suddenly you say, "Oops, but
44:40where is all that wonderful stuff I
44:42used to see?""And now you start to see
44:44the flaws and now I can't stand you,"
44:45and that’s when love begins, right?
44:47Saying, "Now that I can't stand you,
44:49here I am going to love you, here I am
44:51going to stay." You are my harbor, my
44:53refuge, I’m not taking another step,
44:55you are my rock. So, uh, I'm going to
44:57make the soufflé rise again. And how
44:58does it rise again? Well, by doing
45:00things people in love do, right? So,
45:01love is renewed by doing things people
45:03in love do. Spiritual love, I think, is
45:06very similar. I mean, times of drought,
45:08of desert, of dark night, we all have
45:11them, right? And how do you renew
45:13yourself? You don't just disconnect
45:14from the church and say, "Well,
45:16everything is over, the feelings are
45:17gone, the love for God is gone, there's
45:19nothing left to do." You frequent the
45:21sacraments, you fight for it, you go to
45:23confession, prayer, and it emerges
45:25again, right?
45:26>> But what comes after is better,
45:29>> it is much deeper, much more stable.
45:30And I love that Catherine of Siena says
45:32in the dialogue, because one must move
45:34from a mercenary love to the love of a
45:36true lover. She says, "For is he not a
45:38mercenary who seeks God for what He
45:40gives him?""I don't seek the
45:41consolations of God, but the God of
45:43consolations." But she says, "It is
45:45then that God no longer gives you so
45:46much 'eros' in that sense, right?" And
45:49your love can mature, you have a deep
45:51peace, your relationship with God is
45:53much more stable, and she says that
45:54then God begins to reveal His secrets
45:56to you.
45:57>> That's it.
45:58>> And you start to feel vulnerable, and
45:59God begins a much deeper relationship
46:01with you, right? I don't know if
46:03perhaps we are talking about spiritual
46:05love, right?
46:05>> No, but spiritual love is just like
46:07marital love. I see a tremendous
46:09parallel, it's the same thing. So, now
46:11it is, well, when that passion has
46:14passed, right? And when you see them
46:16with that realism and you have lost the
46:18idealism and the heart palpitations,
46:20and well, when you see those defects,
46:22that is when you say, "Wow, I love them
46:25too, I love them too because you are a
46:27whole." I mean, I can't dissect your
46:29defects from your virtues; you are a
46:30whole, and as that whole, you
46:32compensate me or you don't. What I mean
46:34is that I don't look for compensation
46:35either. Simply, you are my friend, my
46:38life partner, right? And then there is,
46:41effectively, saying, "Well, you are
46:42exclusive, forever, permanent," which
46:44gives an immense peace and tranquility,
46:46right? There are other wonderful men,
46:49there are other younger men, there are
46:51other men who might understand me
46:53better, but you are exclusive and you
46:54are unique and I have chosen you, and
46:56dying with you is worth it, right?
46:59>> And building a life together. Hey, and
47:01then then sexual love, hey, we also
47:02have to talk about marriage because it
47:04seems like, well, like we’re a bunch
47:05of prudes here, like it seems like you
47:07get married and it all ends, everything
47:09,
47:09>> right? Yes. Now, now we are going to
47:11talk about marriage and all that. But
47:13first, I wanted to ask you, where does
47:14that intellectual curiosity come from?
47:16That desire to read, to educate
47:17yourself, to be cultured—it’s a joy
47:19to listen to you, isn’t it? And going
47:21and quoting great authors, right? In a
47:24world, in a university setting, where
47:25we sometimes just want to learn a set
47:27of techniques to get a job and make
47:29money, you know that university has to
47:31give you a criteria, right? A Christian
47:34worldview of reality, right? And that
47:36you can forge your own criteria by
47:37knowing that truth, right? Where did
47:39this curiosity come from? Not just for
47:41administrative law, but to study
47:42psychology, anthropology, and so on.
47:44>> Of course, of course, but it came to me
47:45through law. I mean, looking at a law
47:46like the abortion law, looking at laws
47:48like the trans laws. I realized that to
47:51be a jurist, it’s not enough to just
47:53be a jurist, I mean, to judge a law, I
47:55need to know what it is regulating. It
47:57is regulating the human being. What is
47:59the human being? So I had to dive into
48:02anthropology, psychology, theology, and
48:03when you start investigating the human
48:05being, you never finish. Was there a
48:09moment you decided to start speaking
48:11publicly about these topics, or did it
48:13happen little by little? Has it been
48:16hard for you to take on that public
48:18exposure? Because I imagine you pay the
48:21toll that everyone who wants to tell
48:23the truth pays. Yes, yes, yes, yes, of
48:25course, of course. No, there wasn't a
48:29specific moment, but it is true that
48:34when I started to see the light, let's
48:36say, and to marvel at the human being,
48:38I felt the need, more than the
48:40obligation, the need to spread it, to
48:42talk about it, and to try to explain it
48:44, and to try to reach the widest
48:46audience possible, because this must be
48:49shared. It really must be shared, to
48:52shed light, shed light, because these
48:53are topics that are very mediatized. In
48:57the worst sense of the word, because
48:59those media are dominated by a group
49:00with a very clear ideology that we
49:02don't agree with at all, very murky,
49:04but it is there continuously bombarding
49:06us. And what you say is really needed,
49:09you used a word that I think is
49:11fundamental: light, meaning the truth
49:13of what is certain, and speaking it,
49:15transmitting it, and presenting it,
49:16right? Because there are so many lies
49:21or half-truths that we are continually
49:23living with. I mean, it reaches a point
49:26where young people, I sometimes talk to
49:28kids, they say, "No, that's normal now.
49:30" What do you mean it's normal now? I
49:32mean, the truth is the truth, and it's
49:33always true, and the truth doesn't
49:34change, right? "But before it was like
49:36that, and now it's different." I say,
49:37don't be mistaken, that's what they're
49:39telling you, but the truth doesn't
49:41change. Then they stare at you as if to
49:42say, "Seriously, it doesn't change?"
49:44I'm referring to kids, 15, 16-year-old
49:46teenagers who are starting to think,
49:49>> but they don't think; they sort of
49:50absorb it, and I don't know if they
49:52assimilate it—I want to think they
49:54don't really assimilate it much—but
49:56since they are submerged in it, they
49:57are soaked
49:59>> in that false relativistic ideology of
50:01half-truths, of "anything goes,""it's
50:03all the same,""what difference does it
50:06make?" The word "forever,"
50:10>> right? The word "commitment," terrible.
50:13So
50:14>> yes,
50:15>> that someone
50:17>> with intellectual preparation, right?
50:19And also with human experience, because
50:21you're not an alien, you're a woman who
50:23has her family, who has lived, who has
50:24suffered,
50:25>> can bear witness to all these things
50:27and explain them, it seems fundamental
50:29and very necessary to me, especially,
50:31as you said, the light, because we live
50:33in a dark world in that sense,
50:35>> right? Totally. Jesus is the light of
50:37the world. Hey, a question for both of
50:38you, because I'm really enjoying this,
50:40as you are two women I listen to a lot,
50:41and I enjoy listening to both of you,
50:43whether on social media or in person,
50:44shedding this light. But, what is the
50:46fundamental truth, uh, María? Because,
50:49for example, when I went to study at
50:50the seminary, I had already studied
50:52economics, I was working, and I was
50:53fascinated by anthropology, meaning
50:55anthropology and why it is about
50:56understanding the human being. I
50:58started to understand and I said, but
51:00how have I not been told this before,
51:02and how do you make a part—I would
51:03like to delve into this with you—a
51:05philosophical part. I am into Thomistic
51:07anthropology, but nourished by
51:09everything from the Greeks, right? And
51:11so you say: "Okay, we start explaining
51:13that the human being has spiritual
51:15powers, has intelligence, has a will,
51:17has cognitive capabilities that are
51:19above space-time conditions, and with
51:20the will I can autodetermine myself
51:22toward what the intelligence presents
51:24to me as good, and at the same time I
51:26have a body in which the unity of the
51:28person resides, this conception of the
51:30unity of the person and so on, and then
51:31I have feelings, the affections that
51:33move me and that I learn to master."
51:35Then I started to understand what the
51:37human being is with the powers that you
51:39have all united in the person, because
51:41we have the body is spiritualized,
51:43right? The spirit is channeled,
51:45everything is united, but knowing that
51:47although we are a unit, we
51:48nosologically divide the part of
51:50knowledge to understand ourselves. But
51:52then I started this part of philosophy
51:54that fascinated me. Besides, I had a
51:56fascinating anthropology professor and
51:58then I started studying theology. I
51:59must admit that while you read about
52:01psychology, I really read about
52:03theology and the saints, I must admit.
52:05There is an older priest who cares for
52:07me a lot, he says: "You have to read
52:08something other than..." I know, but I
52:10see the Church fathers, I see the
52:11doctors, the Bible, and it's very hard
52:12for me. But well, every now and then I
52:15try to read something, but I say,
52:16because I read Scripture and in Genesis
52:18it says that God created man in His
52:19image and likeness, and people say: "
52:21Well, this doesn't...this means a lot."
52:24It's not that God has a beard and is in
52:26heaven, but that we have intelligence
52:28and will, a spiritual soul; we have
52:30spiritual powers as God Himself has. We
52:33can have a personal relationship with
52:34Him. And I also keep reading Genesis
52:38and it says that God took Eve from
52:40Adam's rib.
52:42>> And Adam says, "This is bone of my
52:43bones and flesh of my flesh." So I am
52:45saying, "Sure, but what does it mean?"
52:47It means that Eve is of the same
52:49dignity as Adam, the man. We are
52:52talking about the second millennium
52:53before Christ. Then it seems it was
52:55compiled during the exile in Babylon,
52:56six centuries before Jesus Christ. But
52:59it is telling you in an era when women
53:00were second-tier, the Bible is saying,
53:02"No, no, she is of the same dignity."
53:04They are complementary in terms of
53:06their sexuality and different in terms
53:08of their sexuality, but equal in
53:09dignity. Sure, I was beginning to
53:11understand anthropology, all this part
53:13of theology that was coming, and how it
53:14combines and complements. It fascinated
53:16me. How did you discover this? How
53:18would you put it into words? Because I
53:20think many people would really
53:22appreciate this. Uh, there is a word
53:25that anthropologists use that is very
53:26significant, which is neoteny.
53:28>> Neoteny.
53:29>> Neoteny. Neoteny means that we are born
53:31raw, that is, we are born premature.
53:34Every human being is born premature.
53:35And it's true, it is true. We are born
53:38primitive, we are born wild. That is to
53:40say, being human is a biological event;
53:42we are born human, but becoming fully
53:44human is a duty, it is a cultural event
53:47. That is why anthropologists say we
53:50are born premature, because, of course,
53:52you have a human being biologically
53:54speaking, but a human being not fully
53:56developed, because they have not
53:57developed physically, as you said,
53:59intellectually, nor spiritually. It is
54:02a little primitive.
54:03>> What is happening? That we are staying
54:05that way. There has been a movement of
54:08regression, that is, uh, coming to know
54:10that anthropologists have been able to
54:12say, "There are three dimensions: a
54:13spiritual dimension, an intellectual
54:15one, and a physical one, and all three
54:17must be developed to their fullness to
54:19become fully human.""Becoming fully
54:22human, uh, which is a duty; I mean,
54:23being human is a biological event, but
54:25becoming fully human is a duty of the
54:27human being, primarily of the parents,
54:28right?" Humanizing that creature is a
54:31duty of the parents, right? So, how
54:34have we managed to come to know that?
54:37Through centuries of knowledge from the
54:40Greeks, the Romans, the Judeo-Christian
54:42tradition that has been teaching us
54:44timeless guidelines by which the human
54:46being can reach their fullness.
54:49>> And what are, what are those guidelines
54:50?
54:50>> Well, to their physical fullness. Uh,
54:52first to physical fullness, evidently
54:54the child's body has to become an
54:56adult's body, right? And mature. But no
54:59, that, that process of becoming an
55:01adult body implies not only a physical
55:03process, but also, uh, psychic, in the
55:05sense that the girl becomes a woman,
55:07starts preparing to be a mother, and
55:09acquires a series of responsibilities
55:10to prepare for that. With the male, we
55:14have a problem there, and a serious
55:15current problem, because of course, the
55:17male is born male, sex is constitutive
55:18of the person, masculinity permeates
55:20every single cell of his body, even if
55:21gender ideologues do not want to
55:23acknowledge it, but the little boy is
55:24not a man. I find this fascinating. He
55:27is not a man, he is a promise of
55:29manhood in the making. And we could say
55:31that of any human being. In other words
55:32, every creature that arrives is a
55:33promise of humanity in the making. We
55:35must strive for them to become truly
55:37human. But the male, the male has a
55:40problem, which is that he is born male,
55:42he is masculine, he has testosterone,
55:44but he is not a man. Becoming a man is
55:47very complex. It is a path full of
55:50obstacles, of problems; for starters,
55:52because he has to separate from his
55:54mother, he has to experience a
55:56de-mothering. The girl does not have
55:58that problem because the girl is born
56:00into a feminized world, she is feminine
56:01, she continues in the maternal
56:02feminine world quite happily. A day
56:04will come when the father must
56:05intervene precisely to strengthen her,
56:07to face her toward the outside world,
56:09to masculinize her a little, right? So
56:11that she isn't capricious, a victim,
56:13and so on, and so on. But for the male
56:15to be a man, he needs another male to
56:17guide him by the hand, to lead him by
56:19the hand to manhood; because he needs a
56:21special initiatory rhythm, he needs to
56:22be separated from the mother, because
56:24there is a fusion with the mother and
56:26the maternal feminine world that must
56:28be broken, because he has to connect
56:30with the masculine world. He needs his
56:32aggressiveness to be channeled. Boys
56:34are aggressive and that aggressiveness
56:36is wonderful when channeled, but he
56:37needs a man, preferably his father, to
56:39channel it, because a male becomes a
56:41man through self-control, through
56:43self-mastery. Women do too, but for us
56:44women it is somehow simpler, right? It
56:46is true that the capacity to have
56:47children makes us more responsible. So,
56:49it is like nature, our initiatory rite.
56:53But the male needs a father, primarily
56:55a father who teaches him to channel
56:57that aggressiveness, self-control,
56:58mastery over oneself. That is freedom.
57:01Freedom is what is possessed by the one
57:03who controls himself, who controls his
57:05impulses, his instincts. It is what is
57:08possessed by the one who gives himself
57:10and therefore is free. There is no
57:13greater freedom than he who gives his
57:14life for love. In reality, he is free.
57:15In other words, helping a son to
57:16control his impulses is helping him to
57:18be free and therefore helping him to
57:20love, right? And also the third factor,
57:23validation. I believe that for that
57:26little male to be a man, he needs to be
57:27validated by his father. There is an
57:29event in—and everything leads me to
57:31the gospels and I don't want it to. But
57:33we do want to, we really do. For
57:35example, we want to
57:37>> uh Jesus, Jesus could have not had a
57:39father, and God made sure he had a
57:40father, not a biological one, but a
57:42father,
57:43>> a man, a male reference,
57:46>> to lead him toward manhood, because he
57:47was born a boy, born carnal, a child,
57:49primitive like everyone else. So Joseph
57:52had to lead him toward manhood, be his
57:54model, be his leader, channel that
57:55aggressiveness Jesus would have had
57:57because he had testosterone, he had
57:59muscular growth, and he had that drive.
58:01To say no to the one who can do
58:02everything, to set limits for the one
58:04who has no limits. Joseph's role is
58:06very strong, but uh hm they also need
58:08validation, to feel validated in their
58:11masculinity because, and especially
58:13today, right? I return to the gospels.
58:16When the sky opens and God says, "This
58:18is my beloved son in whom I trust.""
58:21Every male son needs his father to tell
58:23him at some point," I trust in you,
58:24you're a mess, you're disobedient, you
58:26do this, but I trust in you, right? "
58:29That trust which is, is wonderful. So,
58:31well, I'm rambling a bit." So you were
58:33saying, "This is the physical dimension
58:35, how does it arrive?" Well, it
58:36develops the physical dimension. Well,
58:38we need a father and a mother who help
58:39us become a man and a woman, uh, by
58:41embracing our essence, which Aristotle
58:42said, is what makes us be what we are.
58:45Well, that, the essence of, or as John
58:47Paul II said, "Family, become what you
58:49are.""No, well, I really like to say
58:50man, woman, become what you are,
58:51because we are something specific,
58:53concrete, determined, right? Not just
58:55any crazy androgynous thing,
58:56>> right? That's where I want to step in,
58:58because you spoke of essence, right?
58:59And so when we first explain what a
59:01human being is, well, that development
59:03you have expressed, right? And you have
59:05developed, it is founded on a truth. H
59:07>> no, and it is what your essence is,
59:09right? Which is a human being, but
59:10above all your nature, which is your
59:11essence as a principle of operations so
59:13I can act in the world. I have a nature
59:15. So, first I have to accept my nature.
59:18Like, I am a male, I am 1.72 tall, I am
59:20white, I like soccer, but that is not
59:22nature, but that's aside, but I am this
59:24. And if I wanted to play in the NBA
59:27now, be two meters tall and
59:27dark-skinned, they would tell me, well
59:29no, this is what you have to do. You
59:31are going to be happy this way. And our
59:33nature comes sexed. And that is why I
59:36believe that when we study anthropology
59:38, they tell us that a person is an
59:39individual substance of an intellectual
59:42nature, right? So, you are yourself in
59:44how you operate in the world, having
59:46that capacity for intellectual
59:48operations, and therefore, for will,
59:50knowledge, love, and acting within the
59:52world. But we also see that in this
59:55person—no, the human being—you have
59:58a sexed nature, and I really liked how
1:00:00everything develops with personalism,
1:00:02but you also have your history.
1:00:05>> And you also have your circumstances,
1:00:06right? And phenomenology also told me
1:00:08about that, meaning everything that
1:00:10appears in your life and how you deal
1:00:11with it, right? But I believe the
1:00:13Thomistic structure, the Thomistic
1:00:14anthropology, is fundamental to knowing
1:00:16a little bit how to govern myself. So,
1:00:17it is a human being, right? Where the
1:00:19first thing you have to accept is your
1:00:20nature, because I think this is perhaps
1:00:22the concept, and I wanted to ask you,
1:00:23since you are more of an expert on the
1:00:25subject regarding gender ideology and
1:00:26so on, don't you think this concept of
1:00:28nature has been lost?
1:00:29>> Of course, of course, of course. That
1:00:30is what is lost. That is what is lost.
1:00:32That is to say, it is assumed that we
1:00:33are not born as man and woman, that we
1:00:35are not biologically man and woman, but
1:00:36rather that we are born with certain
1:00:38physical, external, physiological
1:00:40characteristics that do not condition
1:00:41our sexual identity. In other words,
1:00:43they are an ornament that can also be
1:00:44transformed through surgery, hormonal
1:00:46blocking, and, well, the pumping of
1:00:47cross-sex hormones, and so on. I mean,
1:00:50it is an external accident that can be
1:00:53fixed, right? Because the law allows it
1:00:55and the legal system permits it. So,
1:00:56sexual identity does not exist. It is a
1:00:59cultural construction that they have
1:01:01made us believe since the dawn of time,
1:01:03especially to keep us dominated,
1:01:04enslaved, and, well, subjected to the
1:01:06tyranny of procreation, which is
1:01:08motherhood. I mean, what ideas.
1:01:10>> Maria, we have arrived at a topic that
1:01:11I find extremely interesting because no
1:01:13one talks about it, right? Or, at least
1:01:15, I haven't heard practically anyone,
1:01:16which is the subject of single-sex
1:01:17education. You are one of the people
1:01:20most dedicated to that defense.
1:01:23>> Why? Why do you consider single-sex
1:01:25education important? I imagine that as
1:01:27a mother with both boys and girls, you
1:01:29have experienced both. You must have
1:01:32seen evident, significant differences
1:01:34in your own children and the need for
1:01:36that differentiated education. Why do
1:01:38you defend it when it seems like
1:01:40something very old-fashioned, right?
1:01:42Like something very strange. Well, I
1:01:44think I think it is an idea whose time
1:01:46has come, right? Victor Hugo used to
1:01:47say, there is nothing more powerful
1:01:48than an idea whose time has come. It is
1:01:50the time for single-sex education, not
1:01:51the 60s, not the 50s, no, no, no, right
1:01:53now, because it is precisely when
1:01:55sexual identity is being questioned,
1:01:57right? When there is a confusion about
1:01:58am I a man, am I a woman, what is it to
1:02:00be a man? What is it to be a woman? The
1:02:02other day in a course with psychology
1:02:03students, they didn't know how to
1:02:05answer the question. I told them,"
1:02:06Don't answer me biologically with
1:02:08chromosomes and such. "" No, how would
1:02:09you define a man? "" What definition
1:02:11would you give of a woman? "They didn't
1:02:12know. And they were psychology students
1:02:14, right? So, I think right now, knowing
1:02:16, evidently, in a school they know what
1:02:18a boy is, a male school, and they know
1:02:20what a girl is. And we were talking
1:02:22earlier about the physical dimension;
1:02:24the physical dimension impacts the
1:02:25intellectual and impacts the spiritual
1:02:27and then it will impact our way of
1:02:28seeing the world and life in general,
1:02:30right? Because boys and girls have
1:02:32differences since the eighth week of
1:02:35gestation. It is really striking. In
1:02:37that week of gestation, the influence
1:02:40of certain hormones will cause that
1:02:42little person to have natural
1:02:43inclinations. Evidently, culture, that
1:02:46is, education, is there to channel
1:02:48those inclinations one way or another
1:02:50toward equal opportunities, so that
1:02:52they are equal in rights, duties,
1:02:53dignity, humanity, opportunities,
1:02:55obviously, but respecting and knowing
1:02:57those differences. We had spoken about
1:02:59the physical dimension; we haven't had
1:03:01time to speak about the spiritual and
1:03:02the intellectual, about anthropology,
1:03:03right? But that physical dimension is
1:03:06of immense importance because it has
1:03:07been proven that there are different
1:03:09cognitive maturation rhythms between
1:03:10boys and girls, and if we don't take
1:03:12them into account, we are being unfair.
1:03:14I mean, that saying our grandmothers
1:03:16used, which those of us who are parents
1:03:18or teachers see constantly, that girls
1:03:20are sharper from a young age, is a
1:03:22biological reality because the female
1:03:24brain matures up to two years earlier
1:03:25than a male brain. In other words, when
1:03:28a boy or a girl is born prematurely,
1:03:30the premature girl has a much better
1:03:32chance of thriving than a premature boy
1:03:34, because his brain is more immature.
1:03:36They were both born prematurely at the
1:03:38same time, yet his brain is more
1:03:39immature. I mean, there is, especially
1:03:42in the left hemisphere area dedicated
1:03:43to linguistic and verbal skills—which
1:03:45is what they need in preschool and
1:03:46primary school for reading
1:03:48comprehension, to read, and to express
1:03:49themselves, which is what is evaluated
1:03:51—the boys are two years behind.
1:03:53Meaning, at 20 months, for example,
1:03:55girls have triple the vocabulary, and
1:03:56for boys—this is something I always
1:03:57say—it is tremendous, 20 months and
1:03:59they triple their vocabulary. Later you
1:04:01catch up to us in vocabulary, but never
1:04:02in speed of speech. Of course, there
1:04:05are other small, seemingly trivial
1:04:06biological details, which highlights
1:04:08the importance of keeping the physical
1:04:10dimension of the human being in mind.
1:04:12That is to say, girls are born with
1:04:14developed fine motor skills; they find
1:04:16it very simple to hold a pencil and
1:04:17write beautifully. Boys are born with
1:04:19axial motor skills, which is the kind
1:04:21used for throwing objects. They find it
1:04:23very easy to throw a book, but holding
1:04:24a pencil is, well, it's a huge struggle
1:04:26for them. So, not understanding this is
1:04:28leading to, well, frustration,
1:04:30disillusionment, and injustices, isn't
1:04:32it? The boy is" bad, "the boy is"
1:04:34hyperactive "—three out of every four
1:04:35disciplinary reports involve boys. The
1:04:37boy is not bad, the boy is not
1:04:38hyperactive, the boy has muscle growth
1:04:40that we don't have; it's biology,
1:04:41muscle growth driven by testosterone.
1:04:43So, between the ages of 6 and 12, that
1:04:45muscle growth makes them need to move,
1:04:46to shift in their chairs, to mess with
1:04:48their hair, to need to run. He is not
1:04:50bad, he is not hyperactive. Not
1:04:51understanding this is leading us to a
1:04:53great deal of frustration, especially
1:04:55among boys. So, well, I primarily
1:04:57defend the freedom of parents to be
1:04:59able to choose the educational model
1:05:01they want, right? Because right now it
1:05:02is an educational model that is
1:05:04respected in some places like the
1:05:05Autonomous Community of Madrid, but in
1:05:07other autonomous communities they have
1:05:08removed the subsidies and above all my
1:05:10great fight is for public schools. I
1:05:11wish there could be public schools.
1:05:13because they would fill up. There is
1:05:15demand. There is demand. Every time a
1:05:16charter, single-sex school opens, there
1:05:18is a waiting list. Parents want it
1:05:20because we, uh, want the best for our
1:05:22children and we don't want identity
1:05:24oddities, we want them to have clarity.
1:05:26Later, when they are of age, let them
1:05:28do what they want and experiment, get
1:05:29lost to find themselves, right? Well,
1:05:31that's it. they will go down wild paths
1:05:34like we all have to end up finding
1:05:35ourselves, right? But
1:05:37>> Hey, and what would you say to those
1:05:39who say that single-sex education is
1:05:40missing an essential part of
1:05:42development, which is interacting with
1:05:43people of the opposite sex?
1:05:45>> Yes. Well, it's single-sex education,
1:05:47not a single-sex life. Right.
1:05:48>> Right. I mean, it's just a few hours a
1:05:51day that will be very good for them to
1:05:53focus, to get to know themselves,
1:05:54because they will focus more on their
1:05:56inherent peculiarities, so they don't
1:05:58have to pretend who they are in front
1:05:59of the opposite sex. Because that is
1:06:02the lifelong flirting game that will
1:06:03always exist in front of the opposite
1:06:05sex; you want to pretend to be
1:06:06something you're not, be in a way
1:06:08you're not, and right now there is a
1:06:09lot of tension, disagreement, and
1:06:11frustration in the relationship between
1:06:12the sexes. There is a lot of fear.
1:06:14Males are afraid, uh, from a certain
1:06:16age to approach girls because they
1:06:18could be labeled as, well, a pervert, a
1:06:20harasser, or something weird. If you
1:06:22talk to me nicely, then you're a sexist
1:06:23. Because you talk to me nicely?
1:06:24Because you open the door for me?
1:06:25Because you let me sit down, you're a
1:06:26sexist? Exactly. So the boys say," Well
1:06:28, what do we do? I don't know, I don't
1:06:30know how to approach this girl. "And
1:06:31the girls also have a, uh, superiority
1:06:34complex, because it is also true that
1:06:36at the same age they surpass them
1:06:38mentally; at 12 years old, a girl is a
1:06:41woman and a boy is a boy. So that
1:06:45social superiority we have right now is
1:06:47radicalized much more, and then they
1:06:49despise them, and it can simultaneously
1:06:52lead the boy to, well, radicalize his
1:06:54virile stereotypes and actually become
1:06:56a sexist because he is being looked
1:06:58down upon. It's a cycle we get into
1:07:01that is absurd, isn't it? So, let them
1:07:02be calm, so that you have a moment.
1:07:04Differentiated life, right? It's just a
1:07:06little bit of time differentiated. Then
1:07:08there's the playground, then there are
1:07:09friends, then there's life, their
1:07:11father and their mother, who are the
1:07:13most palpable example of a relationship
1:07:14between the sexes, right? We learn,
1:07:17let's say we are what our parents
1:07:19taught us when they didn't want to
1:07:21teach us anything at all. That is, we
1:07:24learn by observation; we watch how they
1:07:26relate, as Pep Morrel says, how they
1:07:27dance in the kitchen, how they tap each
1:07:29other, how they kiss, how they argue,
1:07:31hug, and so on. That is the
1:07:32relationship between the sexes that
1:07:33they learn. You can take your son or
1:07:36your daughter to a co-ed school, but if
1:07:37their parents are fighting tooth and
1:07:39nail all day, they won't learn respect
1:07:41between the sexes. Or a co-ed school
1:07:44where, if that boy or girl lives with a
1:07:46mother who despises the father, who
1:07:48criticizes and censures him, well, they
1:07:50won't learn that harmonious
1:07:52relationship between the sexes. So, the
1:07:55school of life for sexual respect is
1:07:57the home, obviously, not the school.
1:08:00>> Totally. Hey, Marí, regarding the
1:08:03gender ideology we've discussed, which
1:08:05you said defines the human being and
1:08:07their sexuality as a cultural construct
1:08:10that you define based on your
1:08:11inclinations, right? And many children
1:08:15who don't even know themselves, an
1:08:17adolescent girl who is more or less
1:08:18learning to know herself, right? But we
1:08:21often forget, don't we, that everyone
1:08:24has infinite dignity, right? That's the
1:08:27first thing, but we all have a nature,
1:08:29a sexual nature. I, at least,
1:08:32understand it in terms of being happy
1:08:34and developing in fullness according to
1:08:37my nature, not as slavery or a
1:08:39limitation, but as a gift from God to
1:08:41be able to reach that fullness and be
1:08:43happy. And it is in accordance with my
1:08:46nature. I am a man, I am white, this is
1:08:49my height. Yes.
1:08:51>> And if I develop it and within this
1:08:52path, well, I have disorders, which we,
1:08:54well, we attribute to original sin,
1:08:56right? That disorders are produced.
1:08:58There are disorders in social
1:09:00relationships, there are disorders
1:09:01within oneself, and I have disorders in
1:09:03eating, disorders in sleep, my own
1:09:05disorders, and disorders in affectivity
1:09:07and sexuality. And God invites us not
1:09:09to be repressed, but to order ourselves
1:09:11according to our nature. It has helped
1:09:13me a lot, since I am celibate, you are
1:09:15celibate, and I don't feel repressed,
1:09:17>> right? So, since gender ideology
1:09:19doesn't give me an answer, but
1:09:20Christian anthropology does, telling me
1:09:21," Hey, this is your nature and if you
1:09:23order it, "and maybe I have a friend, I
1:09:25say," Hey, I think you'll be very happy
1:09:26ordering your diet,
1:09:28>> I think you'll be happier ordering your
1:09:30sleep, I think you'll be happier
1:09:32ordering your love toward a woman and
1:09:33being happy. "" And I believe the model
1:09:36I propose now is one where I think
1:09:37you'll be happier, okay? Ordering it in
1:09:39a concrete way toward a person of the
1:09:42opposite sex where you can live that
1:09:44intimacy, that complementarity, and
1:09:46proposing this without stripping anyone
1:09:48of the respect for their freedom, right
1:09:50? I don't know if I'm explaining myself
1:09:52and I would like you to be able to
1:09:53develop, right? This idea of gender
1:09:55ideology and how you put it in your
1:09:56books.
1:09:56>> Yes. Uh, well, gender ideology is truly
1:09:59deconstructive; it fragments the human
1:10:02being and, and loses them, loses them,
1:10:04right? Because when you renounce your
1:10:05essence, it is impossible for you to
1:10:07come to know yourself, accept yourself,
1:10:08respect yourself, and love yourself. So
1:10:10, renouncing accepting oneself with
1:10:12one's feminine or masculine sexuality
1:10:15leads you to fragmentation, to
1:10:17frustration, to constant
1:10:19disillusionment, because we are man and
1:10:21woman. Uh, it is imprinted in every
1:10:24single cell of our body. Sex is
1:10:25constitutive of the person. Sexual
1:10:27alterity is our essential
1:10:28anthropological foundation. So, man, if
1:10:30we see it from a religious point of
1:10:32view, uh, evidently if every cell,
1:10:34every skin of our body was thought of
1:10:35by God, evidently our sexuality has
1:10:37also been thought of by God. So, uh, it
1:10:40is a way of, of destroying the human
1:10:43being tremendously, right? Uh, when I
1:10:45said the words of Saint Thomas Aquinas
1:10:47earlier, right? Which, for me, are very
1:10:49instructive, right? Only if I love
1:10:50myself can I resist that which could
1:10:52destroy me. So only if I love myself
1:10:54can I resist, for example, these
1:10:56ideologies that can radically destroy
1:10:58me and are destroying me, right? not
1:11:01accepting my femininity is not
1:11:02accepting my essence, it is not
1:11:04accepting, for example, that I have a
1:11:06maternal side that I develop in action;
1:11:08it is not a part of tenderness, it is a
1:11:10part of developing the ethics of care
1:11:12in a special way. It is that feminine
1:11:16genius that John Paul II spoke of,
1:11:17which is what will complement me and
1:11:19elevate me, but right now if we
1:11:21consider that a cultural construct as
1:11:23it is being considered, then no, no, no
1:11:25. The maternal side is an invention.
1:11:27The maternal side has been a cultural
1:11:29construct to keep us subjugated, kept
1:11:31at home. Motherhood is, as Simone de
1:11:33Beauvoir said, the tyranny of
1:11:34procreation. So, what they want is for
1:11:36us to be kept at home, for men to be
1:11:37the masters of society. In short, an
1:11:39absurd conspiracy that they have
1:11:40invented, obviously, because there was
1:11:42a distribution of roles that was more
1:11:43than consensual throughout the
1:11:45centuries. And historical circumstances
1:11:46were not, let's say, unfavorable to
1:11:48that distribution of roles in which
1:11:49there was more collaboration than
1:11:51confrontation; but here there was
1:11:52confrontation where there was really
1:11:54collaboration, right? And they make us
1:11:56believe that, and the terrible thing is
1:11:58that many women have believed it. So,
1:12:00they have believed that that maternal
1:12:02side does not exist. It has really been
1:12:04a cultural construct, they have
1:12:05deceived us. It is a weakness, I must
1:12:07not show it, I must castrate it, I must
1:12:09repress it, but repress it in the most
1:12:11Freudian style, right? Repress it by
1:12:14putting it into the subconscious, be
1:12:15ashamed of it, feel guilty. I have
1:12:18lived in my house with my daughters the
1:12:21feeling of shame and guilt when one of
1:12:23them got pregnant and had to tell them
1:12:25at work. Why does a woman have to feel
1:12:28shame and guilt for getting pregnant?
1:12:31The other one is getting married in
1:12:32September. She also had a horrible time
1:12:33saying she was going to get married.
1:12:35Horrible. Because she knew they weren't
1:12:36going to accept it, they weren't going
1:12:38to take it well. So they repress it
1:12:40because they also feel weak, they say,
1:12:42"No, no, no. I am a professionally
1:12:45successful woman, because the mold of a
1:12:47successful woman that has been imposed
1:12:49on us is a mold of a sterile ideal of
1:12:51femininity. That is the successful
1:12:55woman, the woman who grows
1:12:56professionally, exhaustively, who
1:12:58develops her part,
1:13:00>> ends up alone. Exactly. In other words,
1:13:02she is the sovereign of her own
1:13:04pleasure. She inevitably suffers the
1:13:06loneliness that comes at the same time
1:13:08from her inability to love. Because if
1:13:10you destroy your maternal side, you
1:13:11destroy your capacity to love. Then,
1:13:13you become self-referential. And in the
1:13:15name of freedom, they lose their
1:13:16freedom, because they are slaves to
1:13:18their impulses, their desires,
1:13:19professional advancement, sexual
1:13:21relationships, travel, consumption,
1:13:22more travel...And all very fast, all
1:13:24very quickly, because the layer of ice
1:13:25is very thin and, if they stop, it
1:13:27breaks, they fall, and they fall into
1:13:29introspection, and they break apart.
1:13:30>> You wrote a wonderful book titled
1:13:32Mother's Pride. Why did you write that
1:13:36book and what is the greatest thing
1:13:38that you, Maria, have learned from your
1:13:40motherhood? What is the greatest thing
1:13:42you have learned? I...the book is
1:13:44called Mother's Pride. guilt-ridden
1:13:48consciousness of motherhood and we have
1:13:49to change it for a proud consciousness
1:13:51of motherhood. Just as we have to
1:13:53assume a proud consciousness of being a
1:13:55man, a proud consciousness of being a
1:13:57woman, that is, not letting ourselves
1:13:59be redesigned, right?,by those perverse
1:14:01intentions that part of society has to
1:14:02redesign us as androgynous and to
1:14:04redesign, no, no, no. a proud
1:14:06consciousness of my motherhood, of my
1:14:08femininity, with all my weaknesses and
1:14:10my imperfections. So, starting by
1:14:13recognizing our imperfection, right? I
1:14:16mean, I think that right now they also
1:14:18give us a mold of a successful woman
1:14:20who can do everything and that we have
1:14:22to be perfect physically and perfect
1:14:24mentally and perfect. a perfect
1:14:25marriage, a perfect home, everything
1:14:27perfect and no, let's see, this breaks,
1:14:29this is a house of cards that no one
1:14:30can hold up because we are imperfect. I
1:14:32mean, original sin, let's see, is that
1:14:34we are imperfect. What we have to try
1:14:36is for it to be a sensible imperfection
1:14:38, right? That it doesn't get out of
1:14:40hand for us. But when we love ourselves
1:14:42imperfect, then we will be at
1:14:44tremendous peace. Let's see, if I don't
1:14:48have time to finish this report because
1:14:50I have four children, well, this report
1:14:52will be just okay, eh? And I don't have
1:14:54time to look gorgeous and I have bags
1:14:55under my eyes here because I woke up to
1:14:57feed the baby eight times, well look,
1:14:58this is how I am, this is how I appear
1:15:00on social media with these bags under
1:15:01my eyes and with my hair just like this
1:15:03. I mean, we are imperfect. Loving
1:15:04ourselves imperfect, that is
1:15:06fundamental. So, we must revalue
1:15:07motherhood because, regarding
1:15:09motherhood, we have been deceived.
1:15:12Motherhood does not subjugate us, it
1:15:13does not enslave us. Motherhood
1:15:15liberates us in an impressive way. It
1:15:18is the power of woman. We say," Now
1:15:19that we are so empowered, I am very
1:15:21empowered. "Well, let's see, power is
1:15:23not having titles, degrees, or being a
1:15:25law firm partner, no, no, no. I mean, a
1:15:27woman's power is motherhood, whether
1:15:30spiritual or physical. But physically,
1:15:33there is a phrase I always say, because
1:15:35I have lived it in my own flesh.
1:15:37Nothing prepares you to be a mother.
1:15:39Nothing, nothing. But being a mother
1:15:41prepares you for everything, everything
1:15:42. I mean, suddenly you are someone else
1:15:44, radically. I have seen it, I've seen
1:15:47it in myself, I'm seeing it in my
1:15:48daughter, I see it in my students every
1:15:49time they become mothers, and in Red
1:15:51Madre you see it with women who, well,
1:15:52who have decided to be mothers in
1:15:53terrible, terrible circumstances, that
1:15:55anyone would say, any normal person
1:15:56would say:" Hey, no, no, abort, because
1:15:58you're looking for trouble. "Because
1:16:00they are mistreated and on the margins
1:16:01of society. They decide to have a child
1:16:03. Hey, they move forward, boom, boom,
1:16:04boom, boom, boom. They become warriors
1:16:07of life, heroines. I mean, right now we
1:16:10need women. We need holiness and
1:16:13heroism more than ever, because they
1:16:15are the opposite of what exists right
1:16:17now, which is victimhood and narcissism
1:16:20; holiness and heroism. I mean, even if
1:16:22it's just everyday, ordinary ones,
1:16:23right? Let's try it, uh, in the face of
1:16:25the victimhood and narcissism that
1:16:27exists. And so the mother's power is
1:16:30not just that it changes you, because
1:16:32suddenly you stop being
1:16:33self-referential and you say," This
1:16:35creature needs me. "And, suddenly, you
1:16:39become centrifugal; you stop being
1:16:41centripetal, you start giving, you stop
1:16:43taking, and therefore, you start loving
1:16:45and stop desiring. I mean, you stop
1:16:48desiring, for desire is
1:16:49self-referential, centripetal, and also
1:16:51narcissistic and nihilistic, because
1:16:53nothing ever satisfies you and you move
1:16:55from one desire to another. You move to
1:16:57love, right?,which is fulfillment and
1:16:59tranquility. That is to say, well, how
1:17:01did I not discover this sooner, right?
1:17:02So, women, how do they let themselves
1:17:04be deceived so much? Because this
1:17:05generates total and absolute
1:17:07fulfillment. And yes, to bring back, I
1:17:10mean, to say again:" Hey, being tired,
1:17:12having messy hair, not being able to
1:17:14get my nails done every week, eh,
1:17:15having a horrible face, not being able
1:17:18to get a promotion at work until who
1:17:19knows when, eh, having the house in
1:17:21total chaos, "these are good things,
1:17:23these are good things. We've been sold
1:17:26that they are bad, right? Because it is
1:17:29good. Oh, I went to bed yesterday at 4
1:17:30in the morning doing a report for my
1:17:32boss. Oh, how cool you are. Eh, I went
1:17:35to bed yesterday at 4 in the morning
1:17:36giving seven bottles. What a loser you
1:17:38are. No, no, no, I honestly prefer
1:17:40changing a diaper to writing a report.
1:17:42Because then that smile, that little
1:17:44foot, that is an epiphany, and my
1:17:46boss's face is not going to be an
1:17:47epiphany. So, let's see, we have to
1:17:49reset ourselves, right? And realize
1:17:51that they are indeed good things. We
1:17:54are really eh pushing that what is good
1:17:57is eh what gives me well-being once
1:17:59again. We hadn't spoken about the
1:18:01physical dimension, but then we've lost
1:18:03the rational dimension. We have lost
1:18:05the rationality that ultimately helps
1:18:07us love, to give a cognitive vision to
1:18:09emotions, right? Saying, well, eh, we
1:18:11have become emotivist and sentimental,
1:18:14we are guided by impulses, but
1:18:16curiously, emotivism is characterized
1:18:18by hardness of heart. It's a curious
1:18:21paradox, I mean, I am guided by
1:18:23emotions, by impulses, but only as long
1:18:25as they generate satisfaction and
1:18:27well-being for me. If not, I discard
1:18:29you, I undo you. I don't want a child
1:18:30because they will cause me, I don't
1:18:32want this partner, the love in the
1:18:33marriage ended because the feelings no
1:18:35longer follow, and then you say," Oh,
1:18:36you are missing out on what love in its
1:18:37fullness is, right? "That is
1:18:39>> and the meaning of life is also lost.
1:18:41There are more and more people with
1:18:43less meaning in their lives, I mean,
1:18:44they don't know, I mean, it gives me
1:18:46chills and well, I believe Father
1:18:47Ignacio also has experience with that,
1:18:49>> the amount of people, young people, eh,
1:18:52>> who have eh supposedly everything to be
1:18:55happy
1:18:57>> and who say, well, they don't know what
1:18:58they are doing in this world, that
1:19:00nothing motivates them,
1:19:02>> that on more than one occasion suicide
1:19:04has crossed their minds and finishing
1:19:06it because, what for?
1:19:07>> Yes, yes. Eh, saying," It's just that
1:19:09in the mornings I open my eyes and I
1:19:11don't have a reason to get out of bed.
1:19:14"" I mean, in the end, all of that is
1:19:15because you have nothing that fulfills
1:19:17you. If you have love in your life, and
1:19:19love means, well, what you say, giving
1:19:21up a bunch of seemingly interesting and
1:19:23successful things,
1:19:24>> which are real sacrifices, yes, but you
1:19:27are happy. I mean, you are happy if you
1:19:29love, and you love when you are giving
1:19:31of yourself, even if they call you a
1:19:33loser, right? You say, well, fine, but
1:19:35I am happy, I mean, I know that even in
1:19:36this world, regardless of whether you
1:19:38have faith or not. Of course, we have
1:19:41faith, but there are people who, even
1:19:42if they don't have faith, can have a
1:19:44good, healthy motivation that humanly
1:19:45makes them happy and fulfills them. And
1:19:47there are so many people
1:19:49>> completely lost. They have a degree,
1:19:51two master's, a ton of money, they’re
1:19:53gorgeous.
1:19:54>> Yes.
1:19:55>> And they don't know what to do with
1:19:56their—have you met people like that,
1:19:57María? But, but the problem, I think,
1:19:58lies in the concept of happiness, right
1:20:00? You’ve talked a lot about happiness
1:20:01; they aren't happy. They aren't happy.
1:20:03What is happiness? No, because
1:20:04happiness had never been a goal until
1:20:06nowadays. Nowadays you ask young people
1:20:07, "And what do you want? To be happy?""
1:20:09I want to be happy." But for the Greeks
1:20:11, it wasn't a goal; it was the result
1:20:13of a virtuous life. It was the result
1:20:16of a virtuous life, right? So, and for
1:20:19us Christians, it is also the result of
1:20:21a life according to our commandments
1:20:24and according to the mandates of divine
1:20:26love, right? Sometimes we will fall a
1:20:29thousand times, we will stray from the
1:20:31path a thousand times, we will break
1:20:33the railings and knock over the markers
1:20:35in the snow because we can't stand them
1:20:37, but we know what the path is, and in
1:20:39the end, we know what gives us peace,
1:20:41right? So, the concept of happiness is
1:20:43a concept that is very worn out and
1:20:45very distorted, right? There is a—
1:20:47there is, in this emotivism, also a
1:20:48positivism that is very harmful. "Smile
1:20:51and you will be happy.""If you have a
1:20:53lemon, make lemonade." Um, no, sorry,
1:20:55if I have a lemon, maybe I won't make
1:20:58lemonade. If I have cancer, don't tell
1:20:59me to make lemonade out of the cancer.
1:21:01I mean, I will be very sad, but what
1:21:03you have to give me are the tools to be
1:21:05happy with cancer, to be happy with my
1:21:06husband who has so many problems, to be
1:21:08happy with the miscarriage I had, with
1:21:10another child who has some issue or
1:21:11other. So, I mean, I have this lemon, I
1:21:14embrace the lemon, that's what
1:21:16happiness is going to be. Saying, make
1:21:18lemonade, smile. No, that’s not going
1:21:19to solve anything for me. What will
1:21:21solve it for me is having the tools to
1:21:23manage that suffering. So, happiness,
1:21:25Miguel d'Ors is a poet who has an
1:21:27expression about happiness that I love,
1:21:28and he says, "Happiness is not being
1:21:30happy and not caring." Meaning, not
1:21:32being happy according to the current
1:21:33standards of having everything,
1:21:35everything perfect, well-being,
1:21:36wonderful sensations. No, not being
1:21:38happy in the sense that I have problems
1:21:40, I have suffering, I have illnesses, I
1:21:42have, uh, confrontations, uh, and I
1:21:43don't care; I don't care in the sense
1:21:45that I handle them, I embrace them,
1:21:47they are my day-to-day life and I keep
1:21:49moving forward, and I also have the
1:21:51necessary tools to overcome those
1:21:53obstacles and keep growing, right? We
1:21:55have an image of suffering like, ugh,
1:21:57not suffering because suffering breaks
1:21:59me, it dislocates my plans, it prevents
1:22:01me from being happy, no. Suffering
1:22:03makes you grow. Growth and suffering, I
1:22:05think they always go hand in hand.
1:22:07Children suffer when they are born.
1:22:08When they leave the mother's womb they
1:22:10suffer, but they grow, they see the
1:22:11light, they move to another higher
1:22:12stage, right? So, I think if we know
1:22:14how to embrace that suffering, we will
1:22:16grow. The important thing is to
1:22:18transform that suffering into learning.
1:22:20If it gets stuck there and we start to
1:22:22enter a loop of self-referentiality and
1:22:24how bad my life is going and what
1:22:25problems I have and that no, no, no.
1:22:28embrace it. I know it's complicated,
1:22:30but of course, with a transcendent
1:22:32vision of life, with a Christian vision
1:22:34, well, suffering has another
1:22:35expressiveness, right? Another facet of
1:22:39growth, of offering, of greatness and
1:22:42of fullness, right? And it seems hard
1:22:45to believe, but it actually leads you
1:22:46to happiness and to fullness.
1:22:47>> Hey, the concept of happiness that you
1:22:49have talked about, I think that
1:22:50sometimes it is not distinguished well,
1:22:51but I think everyone wants to be happy,
1:22:53right? It is, everyone wants to be
1:22:55happy. Aristotle said it, right? That
1:22:57we seek true goods, apparent goods, but
1:22:59everyone seeks happiness, which the
1:23:00classics found in virtue, right? But
1:23:04notice that there is a first-century
1:23:05sage called the carpenter of Nazareth,
1:23:07named Jesus, and his first great sermon
1:23:08was about "Makarios," right? Blessed,
1:23:11happiness is here, isn't it? I was
1:23:13struck by the Last Supper, John says, "
1:23:15so that my joy may be in you and your
1:23:17joy may be complete." God wants us
1:23:19happy, [he eliminates] this canal. God
1:23:20loves you and wants you happy, but not
1:23:22a superficial happiness, right? And I
1:23:25was struck when reading Saint Thomas,
1:23:26the Summa Theologica, in the second
1:23:28part, the part that speaks of morality,
1:23:30he says, what is the ultimate end? The
1:23:33ultimate end is blessedness, happiness.
1:23:35But of course, not a superficial
1:23:36happiness, but rather, for me, it's a
1:23:38central theme in theology, as it's the
1:23:39first humility of Jesus, right? In the
1:23:42book "God's Praise," it said, "We have
1:23:44the secret to happiness and Jesus gives
1:23:46it to us because he truly wants us
1:23:48happy and tells us it will be in love,
1:23:49in giving one's life for love.""He
1:23:52tells us what the deceptions of
1:23:53happiness are and so on, right?" But
1:23:55for me, a phrase from the Christian
1:23:57tradition says it is "gaudium pace,
1:23:59" joy full of peace, which you cannot
1:24:01buy with money, which you cannot
1:24:02achieve through your own efforts or
1:24:04many master's degrees, but is a gift
1:24:06from God when you live in love and
1:24:07service to others, which is the
1:24:09fullness of the virtues, right? That is
1:24:12why, for me, it is an essential topic
1:24:13you are talking about and one I share,
1:24:15that it is sometimes confused, right?
1:24:17But I wanted to ask you something. The
1:24:18other day I had dinner with seven young
1:24:20married couples. They have two or three
1:24:22children, fantastic, devoted mothers,
1:24:24and they tell me: "Vale, we want to
1:24:26talk to you because we are exhausted;
1:24:28we have to work and have a job that at
1:24:30least earns this money, look beautiful,
1:24:32uh, have I don't know how many children
1:24:34, do..." And she says to me: "It's just
1:24:36that sometimes I don't, I don't know, I
1:24:38don't know how to be happy.""We live at
1:24:40a fast pace, with anxiety, exhausted."
1:24:43So, I don't know, is it perhaps a
1:24:45matter of expectations you place on
1:24:46yourself, or society, or, or these
1:24:47things being imposed? What would you
1:24:49answer these women to reach that
1:24:51happiness?
1:24:52>> Yes. Uh, well, let's be practical,
1:24:55right? Because I could start with
1:24:57theories about embracing your reality,
1:24:58all those things that sound beautiful,
1:25:00but then you say, "Well, in day-to-day
1:25:01life, let's see, I wake up here with
1:25:03messy hair, the baby crying, work, my
1:25:04boss, and so on, my husband.""Well, I
1:25:06think that, uh, to be practical, here
1:25:08are several pieces of advice. First, uh
1:25:09, first piece of advice: uh, trust your
1:25:11husbands, trust, trust, trust, trust,
1:25:13or open the door, let them in, because
1:25:15I think this is a generation of, uh,
1:25:17wonderful men who want to, uh, get
1:25:19involved in the home and want to be
1:25:21involved, and we have to let them be
1:25:23involved. But we have to let them get
1:25:24involved as who they are, which is
1:25:26masculine men who aren't going to do
1:25:27things the way we do. So, of course,
1:25:29many times we set the limits ourselves
1:25:30because, oh, you're doing it wrong, oh,
1:25:31you're doing it terribly, you're
1:25:32raising your voice too much, it's all
1:25:34censorship, corrections, criticisms,
1:25:35and in the end, I'll do it, I'll do it,
1:25:36since you do it terribly. Man, that
1:25:38happens to me with my mother. I load
1:25:39the dishwasher and I know she's going
1:25:41to redo the whole thing. No,
1:25:42>> of course, of course, of course. But
1:25:43let him, let him do it terribly, let
1:25:44him do it his own way. let him do it.
1:25:46>> No, indeed, plus it's freedom for you,
1:25:48you're setting yourself free, right?
1:25:49This is, this is a phenomenon that is
1:25:51very widespread. The Hipopet has
1:25:53studied it and made some, some, has
1:25:55even compiled statistics in a book
1:25:56called" The Third Woman, "and 80%of the
1:25:58women surveyed—university-educated,
1:26:00professional women—80%thought, had a
1:26:02prejudice of male uselessness; they
1:26:03thought their husbands were useless.
1:26:06Useless, because they didn't do things
1:26:07like they did. Like them. Exactly. Of
1:26:09course, but that is a mistake. Look,
1:26:11>> you're useless. Of course, of course.
1:26:12Uh, I have suffered from that prejudice
1:26:15of male uselessness. I thought my
1:26:16husband was useless, that he did
1:26:17everything wrong, especially that he
1:26:19raised his voice too much, set too many
1:26:20limits. I didn't like his rules, I
1:26:21didn't like them. So I, uh, wouldn't
1:26:23let him stay with the kids, I would
1:26:24stay instead. So I have given up many
1:26:27things. Uh, I was invited to a
1:26:28conference, I don't know at what time,
1:26:30at 8 o'clock. Oh, I can't, I have four
1:26:31kids, I'll stay with them, I'm not
1:26:33leaving them with my useless husband,
1:26:34right? Or a trip. No, no, no. My
1:26:36husband would tell me," Just go, go,
1:26:37I'll stay. "No, no, no. How am I going
1:26:39to leave the kids with you? I mean, I
1:26:40wouldn't say it to him, but I thought
1:26:41it. I'd say," No, honey, I'll stay. "
1:26:42And inside you were thinking," This is
1:26:44going to be a disaster. "Until you
1:26:45realize and say," It's just that he's
1:26:47not, he's not me. "No, he's not, he's
1:26:49not a woman, he's a man. He will do
1:26:52things his own way; to me, it's chaotic
1:26:54, but it's the masculine-paternal way
1:26:56and we have to allow it because the
1:26:57kids need it and, for me, it's freedom.
1:27:00I mean, if I let my husband step in and
1:27:02do things how he wants, then I am free.
1:27:05It’s unbelievable that we don't
1:27:06realize that, right? For us at the
1:27:07university, for example, there is
1:27:09something that is very, very real. Now
1:27:11that there's paternity leave, when a
1:27:13father takes paternity leave, he comes
1:27:15back with research, a book under his
1:27:17arm, having used the paternity leave to
1:27:19write a book. When a professor returns
1:27:21from maternity leave, we come back
1:27:22exhausted, tired, worn out, and with a
1:27:24significant delay in our research
1:27:26because we haven't been able to do
1:27:27anything. Has the father taken poor
1:27:29care of the child because he wrote a
1:27:30book? No, no. The father is more
1:27:33relaxed, the father controls less. The
1:27:34father puts the kid on the floor and
1:27:36gives him a few toys, checks on him
1:27:37every so often to make sure he isn't
1:27:39drinking bleach, but he has time to do
1:27:41his work, and the child is more
1:27:42autonomous, takes more risks, but
1:27:43becomes stronger and more independent.
1:27:45We mothers control so, so, so, so much
1:27:47that we can't do anything other than
1:27:48control the child, and that is a
1:27:50mistake. So, I believe in opening the
1:27:52door to the man, letting him be as he
1:27:54is; if the house is a mess by our
1:27:55standards, then let it be a mess, but
1:27:57you are freer. Trust him more, trust
1:28:00him more. And it's not like there’s
1:28:02an economic factor, or economic
1:28:03pressure as well.
1:28:04>> There is also a factor, obviously,
1:28:06let's see, uh, I would recommend that
1:28:09couples who get married live their
1:28:11lives as if they were going to live on
1:28:13a single salary, that is, don't start a
1:28:16life with two salaries. Even if they
1:28:18have two salaries, she will surely
1:28:19already be a great professional. He is
1:28:21also a great professional because
1:28:22normally when they get married, well,
1:28:24they both work, things go well for them
1:28:26, and then they start dreaming big—a
1:28:28mortgage based on two salaries, some
1:28:30trip based on two salaries, and so on.
1:28:33And then there comes a time when maybe
1:28:34she has children, or simply, uh,
1:28:36whether they have difficulties or not,
1:28:37she wants to stay home after maternity
1:28:39leave to continue being a mother for
1:28:41whatever reason, because it happens to
1:28:43many of us women; that is," Well, now
1:28:44that I'm a mother, my brain
1:28:45neurochemistry and priorities have
1:28:47changed, and it turns out I don't want
1:28:49to leave this four-month-old baby at
1:28:50daycare, I want to stay with them and
1:28:52slow down. "I, who was super cool, a
1:28:55partner at such-and-such firm, want to
1:28:56slow down my professional pace, and
1:28:58suddenly you realize that since you've
1:28:59invested two salaries, you can't. Yes,
1:29:02no, well, it's a piece of advice.
1:29:04>> Advice, material advice: uh, buy a
1:29:06house or rent a house or whatever you
1:29:08want, and plan everything as if you
1:29:10only had one salary, even if you have
1:29:12two, so that the day she or he wants to
1:29:14take maternity or paternity leave, or
1:29:16stop working for a season to be with
1:29:18the kids, they can do it. Because if
1:29:22you invest big, as if we were going to
1:29:23live like that forever, there comes a
1:29:25time when, for starters, you can't even
1:29:26have children. Right, it's a trap. Then
1:29:30you suffocate, then the anxiety of," I
1:29:32have to leave the child because I have
1:29:34to keep paying for our house, paying
1:29:36for the loans we took out. "Start out
1:29:39poor; wealth comes from other places,
1:29:41and this will give you a lot of peace
1:29:43and much more tranquility.
1:29:44>> Okay. Any other factor you would
1:29:46highlight? I mean, the economic issue,
1:29:48the issue of letting the man be,
1:29:50>> the economic issue, the issue of
1:29:51letting the man be himself, and the
1:29:53issue, uh, the issue that children
1:29:54don't need us as much as we think. We
1:29:56have become very overprotective mothers
1:29:58, so we are driving ourselves crazy. Uh
1:30:00, it seems that to be a mother right
1:30:01now, you have to have a perfect
1:30:03instruction manual. And the child has
1:30:04to eat this way, and has to be this way
1:30:06, and no, that’s not it. I mean,
1:30:08that's why I said my mother was
1:30:09neglectful, a sweetly neglectful woman.
1:30:12I think we need to return to that bit
1:30:13of neglect, don't you? Donald Winnicott
1:30:15, a pediatrician from the 50s, used to
1:30:17say," You don't have to be a perfect
1:30:19mother; a perfect mother is not a good
1:30:22mother, you have to be a 'good enough'
1:30:24mother. "Good enough. Meaning, well,
1:30:27you do what you can and you worry about
1:30:28the things that actually matter. The
1:30:30child is well-fed and the child is more
1:30:32or less clean. I'm not saying they have
1:30:35to be spotless, just more or less clean
1:30:37; but everything else is secondary, and
1:30:39look, understand that if they can't go
1:30:41to school in a traditional Madrid '
1:30:43Chulapo' vest, well, they just can't go
1:30:45. The thing is, there are mothers who
1:30:48are, we are, going crazy. Mothers who
1:30:50haven't slept because they had to sew a
1:30:52'chulapo' vest for their kid because it
1:30:54was May 15th at school and the kid had
1:30:56to be dressed as a 'chulo'—it just
1:30:58can't be like this, because we can't
1:30:59live at that level. Indeed. So, well,
1:31:04give importance to what truly has
1:31:06importance, right? If the kid has to
1:31:07eat store-brand cookies, let them eat
1:31:09cookies, and if they have to eat stale
1:31:11bread, let them eat stale bread; I mean
1:31:13, it’s not the end of the world.
1:31:15Another pediatrician gave three pieces
1:31:17of advice. Leave them alone, leave them
1:31:19alone, leave them alone.
1:31:22>> I think leaving them alone in the
1:31:23purest masculine style—meaning, well,
1:31:25don't let them drink bleach, obviously,
1:31:27and don't let them fall out of a window
1:31:29—but otherwise, leave them alone; let
1:31:31them fend for themselves a bit, right?
1:31:34Especially, well, if they haven't done
1:31:35their homework, then you haven't done
1:31:36your homework, that's your problem,
1:31:37right? We mothers tend to be so ready;
1:31:38you haven't done it? Well, come on,
1:31:40let's start doing it at 4 in the
1:31:41morning. No, no, that's not our problem
1:31:42. If they've forgotten their backpack,
1:31:43well, they've forgotten their backpack.
1:31:44That is very masculine. We are always
1:31:46there, ready at the front line, right?
1:31:47And no, no, no, no. Being a little more
1:31:49masculine in that sense, I think, will
1:31:50give us a lot of peace.
1:31:51>> Hey, and one of the things I wanted to
1:31:54ask you is that we often see that
1:31:56women's self-esteem is very low.
1:31:59>> And it surprises me because I often see
1:32:01it in young girls who tell me," We just
1:32:03put out a YouTube video, right? Of, 'I
1:32:05don't feel enough, I don't feel valued,
1:32:06I don't know if it's worth it.' "Mother
1:32:08Olga was saying that earlier, wasn't
1:32:09she? This strikes me, because I see
1:32:12beautiful girls with tremendous ability
1:32:14, and I say," But, where does this
1:32:15deception come from? "So, what is your
1:32:18opinion on this? How can one foster
1:32:20that humble Christian self-esteem in a
1:32:21Christian woman? Especially in an era,
1:32:24it strikes me, an era in which
1:32:26everything feminine is being glorified
1:32:28to the highest degree, I mean, being a
1:32:30woman is the best and being a man is
1:32:31the worst,
1:32:34>> you find more than ever women in the
1:32:35situation Father Ignacio is describing,
1:32:37who don't know what to do with their
1:32:38lives.
1:32:39>> Yes, yes, but well, they don't love
1:32:41themselves. Well, I am finding so many,
1:32:43so many saying" I am not enough, "that
1:32:45phrase," I am not enough. "So, with
1:32:47fear of not being enough at work, with
1:32:49fear of not being enough in a
1:32:51relationship, with fear of, fear of,
1:32:53with fear, with fear. It's just that
1:32:55they love themselves so little, they
1:32:57don't love themselves, right? So they
1:32:59haven't taken that step to stop, to get
1:33:01to know themselves:" I have these
1:33:03defects, I have these shortcomings. "
1:33:04Sometimes it is precisely that
1:33:05shortcoming that must be embraced,
1:33:06right? To say, stop, you don't love
1:33:10yourself. And dive a bit into
1:33:12introspection; what factors, what is it
1:33:15that you don't love about yourself? And
1:33:18embrace, embrace those factors. Try to
1:33:20modify what you can, but what you can't
1:33:22, embrace it because that is who you
1:33:24are. And there is also an obsession
1:33:26with pleasing everyone, right? That has
1:33:28a lot to do with social media. So, you
1:33:30are not going to please everyone. When
1:33:33you embrace yourself and know that I am
1:33:35vain, I have little patience, I am
1:33:37short-tempered and, well, this is what
1:33:39it is. This is what it is. And I think
1:33:42this way, my values are these, they are
1:33:45Christian. You aren't going to please a
1:33:47lot of people, and many will criticize
1:33:49you, and many will stop speaking to you
1:33:51, and, well, that's just the way it is.
1:33:53First, you have to love yourself, like
1:33:55yourself, be authentic,
1:33:57>> right? And this is very biblical,
1:33:58because it appears in the scriptures
1:33:59and Jesus says it, right? Love your
1:34:01neighbor as yourself. And sometimes a
1:34:03girl said to me," Okay, Father, you say
1:34:05that happiness is in love, in giving
1:34:06your life, in giving yourself
1:34:08completely, but you also have to love
1:34:09yourself. "I say, of course, but not
1:34:11loving yourself in a narcissistic,
1:34:13egomaniacal, or self-centered way, but
1:34:15rather I love myself because I consider
1:34:17my life a gift from God, and I want to
1:34:19take care of myself and be well to
1:34:21serve God and others. To say," I love
1:34:23myself, but for a higher motive that
1:34:25doesn't lock me within myself. "This
1:34:26helps me. I try to go to the gym, I try
1:34:29to be well, rest, and so on, but I try
1:34:31to love myself as a gift from God—my
1:34:32life—but in order to be able to serve
1:34:34others, right?
1:34:36>> When people tell me things like that,
1:34:38right? I always tell them," Look, you
1:34:40are saying that God made you wrong, "
1:34:42>> God made you perfect for your purpose.
1:34:45He made you wonderful, exactly as you
1:34:47need to be for the plan He has for you.
1:34:49The problem is usually that we make
1:34:51separate plans, parallel plans. And
1:34:54above all, we look for, or we set goals
1:34:56for ourselves, because when they say,"
1:34:58I am not enough, "but enough for what?
1:35:01>> Maybe I am not enough for this,
1:35:04>> but perhaps you don't need to get there
1:35:06, but rather your happiness, your
1:35:07fulfillment, your maturity is to be
1:35:09here. For that, yes, you are enough.
1:35:12Sometimes we demand things of ourselves
1:35:14that no one else demands, certainly not
1:35:16God, nor even the people around us,
1:35:18right? But it's because we have entered
1:35:21this dynamic of competing, competing,
1:35:23competing, competing, when in reality I
1:35:25believe what is great is to love and be
1:35:27who you are. I mean, God has made you
1:35:29precious, God has made you perfect. The
1:35:31scripture also says it: you are
1:35:32precious in My eyes." I think the other
1:35:34person is more handsome, more wonderful
1:35:35, and cooler. "Well, maybe so, but you,
1:35:38in yourself, are enough. I think the
1:35:41most serious mistake is comparing
1:35:42ourselves, right? And it's also true
1:35:44that, nowadays, the world of social
1:35:46media is the great lie that many people
1:35:49fall into. I mean, you can't look to
1:35:50social media for reflection. Look at
1:35:52the woman next to you, your mother,
1:35:54your sister, your friend, your teacher.
1:35:56Look for real role models,
1:35:58>> not someone on social media.
1:36:00>> Yes,
1:36:01>> because on social media we show what we
1:36:02want and we don't show what we don't
1:36:03want, right?
1:36:04>> Listen, now that I have you here, we
1:36:06are running out of time, and I want to
1:36:07cover a topic before the final
1:36:08questions, and it is the following.
1:36:10>> One of the things that has affected me
1:36:12the most
1:36:13>> since I was a seminarian and then a
1:36:15priest, honestly, has been the
1:36:16mistreatment I've seen women endure,
1:36:19>> especially in Africa and some countries
1:36:22in general, okay? Latin America, but
1:36:24also Spain, and it has, it has, it has
1:36:25hit me, uh,
1:36:26>> and I have felt very moved, and
1:36:28honestly, I believe that the Lord has
1:36:30given me the grace to be able to defend
1:36:32those situations, so much so that I
1:36:34remember that, well, in Africa, right?
1:36:36In the NGO Comera, we built a hospital
1:36:38for women and children, right? Uh, and
1:36:40helping so many women who have gone
1:36:42through this situation, but at the same
1:36:44time, uh, I believe that from the
1:36:46Christian perspective, this does not
1:36:48lead me to hate men, but helps me to
1:36:49love women, right? And to strive for
1:36:52the care of women, but not by hating
1:36:54men. There are men; I have fantastic
1:36:55friends, right?
1:36:56>> But I think in this sense, the defense
1:36:58of women is very important with all
1:36:59this feminism topic that I want to ask
1:37:01you about, two women here, but I have
1:37:03encountered this, okay? And for me, it
1:37:05has been a blow, and I have seen it in
1:37:06the most extreme situations.
1:37:08>> And at the same time, I believe we must
1:37:10raise our voices completely, but I also
1:37:11saw a danger: what unites me is not
1:37:13hatred of men, it is the defense of
1:37:15women, it is the love for women, it is
1:37:16the richness that women possess. And it
1:37:18is a topic that for me is very personal
1:37:20, but I have also seen another danger,
1:37:22you said it before, right? Which is the
1:37:23subject of victimhood, which I didn't
1:37:25know was such a powerful temptation,
1:37:26the Church Fathers of the century, that
1:37:28thing your husband likes, right? I'm
1:37:29going to give him this book, the one
1:37:31about your husband's world, because I
1:37:32see he loves the same readings. But,
1:37:34were you saying the temptation of
1:37:35victimhood? The thing is, we all have
1:37:37wounds, and it’s when you turn your
1:37:39wounds into an identity. Mother Olga
1:37:40talks about that a lot, right? And how
1:37:42unintentionally, because I have a wound
1:37:44and have suffered, I use it as a
1:37:46justification to be sad, to not be my
1:37:48best version, or to treat others badly,
1:37:50right? So, I think this is a danger; I
1:37:53would like to bring it up so that one
1:37:55can give their opinion regarding women,
1:37:57that care for women, and at the same
1:37:59time, the danger of victimhood.
1:38:01>> Well, I believe that victimhood is the
1:38:02great, the great perversion of current
1:38:04feminism. Uh, they want us as victims,
1:38:06they want us infantilized, they want us
1:38:08as victims, they want us submissive,
1:38:10and therefore, if there is a victim,
1:38:12there is a pervert, which is you men,
1:38:14right? Who are to blame for us being
1:38:16victims and suffering all day long. Uh,
1:38:18we have to put a stop to it, evidently,
1:38:20we have to end that. Uh, regarding
1:38:23wounds, um, everyone has wounds. We all
1:38:27have wounds because, uh, Jesus learned
1:38:29obedience through suffering. I return
1:38:32to the, to the, to the Holy Scriptures.
1:38:34Jesus learned obedience through
1:38:36suffering. We don’t talk about Jesus
1:38:37'wounds from having learned obedience.
1:38:39No, we all have family wounds. We have
1:38:42all had wounds caused by our parents'
1:38:44mistakes, because we are all imperfect
1:38:46and we make mistakes, some more serious
1:38:48and others less serious. Uh, drawing
1:38:51from Freud, Freud said that we mature
1:38:52when we learn to forgive our parents,
1:38:54and that is a great truth. Uh, it is
1:38:56one of the great truths. Uh,
1:38:58psychologically speaking, the day you
1:38:59realize that all those things your
1:39:01parents did, they did with good
1:39:02intentions, without the desire to harm
1:39:04you, and you start not blaming them for
1:39:05everything that happens to you, that
1:39:07day you have finally matured, right?
1:39:10You were asking me before about my
1:39:11childhood and my childhood was very
1:39:13happy, but I had a very considerable
1:39:15list of grievances with my parents, and
1:39:17I’m going to say something that is
1:39:19very hard, but I didn't understand them
1:39:21until after they passed away. I mean,
1:39:23once they had passed away, I realized
1:39:25that everything had been wonderful, all
1:39:27for my own good, and that I had to
1:39:29thank God and them constantly, but
1:39:31it’s true that sometimes you realize
1:39:33it too late, right? I mean, you forgive
1:39:36your parents late, and therefore you
1:39:38become a victim; I was infantilized, I
1:39:40blamed my parents for what they said to
1:39:42me, for what they did to me. Why didn't
1:39:45they forbid me from doing this or that?
1:39:46Why did they allow me to do this or
1:39:47that? I mean, I channeled everything in
1:39:50relation to my parents, and therefore,
1:39:52there was no maturity, just total
1:39:55infantilism. Dostoevsky, whom I like
1:39:58much more than Freud, has a beautiful
1:40:00line in*The Brothers Karamazov*that
1:40:02says," The world will be saved the day
1:40:04children accept to redeem the sins of
1:40:06their fathers. "I believe it's true. I
1:40:09mean, the world will be saved the day
1:40:11that what is true within a family
1:40:13becomes real—the day children accept
1:40:14to forgive their parents from the heart
1:40:16. Not just those little mistakes; there
1:40:18are times when you have to forgive
1:40:19terrible things, right? Terrible,
1:40:21because there has been real abuse and
1:40:23horrible things. Well, then, the day
1:40:25children accept to embrace their past
1:40:28critically, right? A critical
1:40:29appropriation of their past; as I was
1:40:31saying, we talk about knowing yourself,
1:40:33but knowing yourself is also your past
1:40:35with all those wounds, those traumas,
1:40:37you have to embrace it too, make it
1:40:39your own to master it, right? Well, it
1:40:41is indeed an intra-family reality, but
1:40:43it is also a generational reality, I
1:40:46think, right? The day this generation,
1:40:48the new sentinels of humanity, right?
1:40:51The new heroes, the new saints, accept
1:40:52to redeem all the errors we are
1:40:54committing in this generation of gender
1:40:56ideology, the woke movement, victimhood
1:40:57, all these atrocities in the culture
1:40:59of death—the day they accept to
1:41:01redeem all this, the world will be
1:41:02saved. And I am sure of it, right?
1:41:04Because I think there is a great hunger
1:41:08for transcendence. We have touched upon
1:41:11the intellectual dimension, the
1:41:13physical dimension, but we were left
1:41:14with the spiritual dimension of the
1:41:16human being, which is basic, it is
1:41:17essential, because otherwise we
1:41:19navigate, we journey toward nothingness
1:41:20, right? We become puppeteers of the
1:41:23world and we lack that life-giving
1:41:25warmth that sacred rites provide, right
1:41:27? Even if they are just rituals, right?
1:41:29Sometimes you can start with rituals,
1:41:31that is, with a, well, I go to mass,
1:41:33but I don't know why I go to mass, but
1:41:35then that sacred rite generates that
1:41:37warmth that, you know, gradually
1:41:39generates an authentic spirituality,
1:41:41right?
1:41:42>> Regarding victimhood, I wanted to ask
1:41:44Mother Olga, what is your opinion on
1:41:46this love and defense of women, their
1:41:47dignity, and not falling into
1:41:49victimhood? But at the same time
1:41:51defending against injustices, uh, going
1:41:52against injustices. I believe that
1:41:55injustices objectively exist, no one is
1:41:57going to deny that and they are
1:41:59regrettable and we must fight against
1:42:01them, but any injustice, not only those
1:42:03committed against women, but against
1:42:05children, against men. There are many
1:42:07men who also suffer. I mean, I think we
1:42:10always have to fight against injustice
1:42:12because God wants us to fight. I mean,
1:42:14this is part of our faith, right? But I
1:42:16would always say one thing, hm,
1:42:19victimhood is disastrous. Disastrous.
1:42:22It is one of the worst cancers, because
1:42:24it also annuls people, I mean, they
1:42:26stop being themselves. These people
1:42:28neither love themselves, nor do they
1:42:30love anyone. They live crushed and they
1:42:32crush everything that moves around them
1:42:34and on top of that they live in a
1:42:36continuous, continuous reproach. I mean
1:42:39, sometimes I have met people who tell
1:42:40me," You have to understand me because
1:42:42I have many wounds. "I say," Let's see,
1:42:44I have to understand you because you
1:42:46are a human being, because I also have
1:42:48many wounds and I perceive things from
1:42:50my wounds and you from yours. And I
1:42:52express myself from my wounds and you
1:42:54from yours. "Why? Because it is as
1:42:56human to have wounds as it is to have
1:42:58eyes on your face and a nose and common
1:43:00sense or no common sense. Well, you
1:43:02understand me, right? Or intelligence
1:43:04or or sensitivity. I mean, having
1:43:07wounds is part of our nature. It goes
1:43:10there. What do we have to do? What is
1:43:13it that victims don't do? Use those eh
1:43:16wounds for good. I mean, I have a wound
1:43:19, this is a potential to learn. This is
1:43:21a school. I am going to see what I
1:43:23learn from this pain. Above all, I have
1:43:25to learn that if this hurts me, I will
1:43:27not do it to you.
1:43:29>> If someone replies to me like that, or
1:43:32treats me this way, or hurts me a lot,
1:43:34noted, learned—I shouldn't do that to
1:43:37anyone else. But no, it's just the
1:43:40opposite. Since I'm treated this way,
1:43:41now you have to take it, and I'll do it
1:43:43to you. But well, it's what I sometimes
1:43:45think—that’s the issue with
1:43:47narcissism and victimhood, that
1:43:48victimhood is ultimately a kind of
1:43:50narcissism taken to the extreme, right?
1:43:52A type of narcissism.
1:43:54>> I mean, in the end, you're not a
1:43:56wounded person, you're just selfish,
1:43:59period. I mean, let's call things by
1:44:02their name. Don't justify the harm you
1:44:05do to others by shielding yourself with
1:44:07the harm that was done to you, right?
1:44:10And
1:44:11>> And this, mother, deep down, is only
1:44:12possible from a vision that there is a
1:44:14God who will put things in their place,
1:44:15as Kant said, a rewarding God; I also
1:44:17understand it from Catholic theology,
1:44:19but a God who also knows how to bring
1:44:20good things out of everything, *omni
1:44:22enim bonum*, even from the suffering of
1:44:24the cross, from your sufferings you can
1:44:25draw his wounds.
1:44:27>> By his wounds we have been healed. He
1:44:28didn't have wounds of his own because
1:44:31he is the perfect man, right? The one
1:44:33who wasn't born marked by the original
1:44:36sin with which we all arrive wounded.
1:44:39But he chose to go through pain, he
1:44:41chose to go through wounds first
1:44:43because he truly came to be one of us
1:44:45and so that we know that in our wounds,
1:44:48we are not alone. But above all, he
1:44:52taught us that good can be drawn from a
1:44:54wound.
1:44:55>> And you, mother, have you had any
1:44:57temptation? I have, especially once, a
1:44:59strong temptation of victimhood.
1:45:02>> Well, temptation, yes, it has crossed
1:45:04my mind to be loved a little, for them
1:45:05to pay a little attention to me. Oh,
1:45:07look how sick I am. I think we've all
1:45:08had that more or less, right? Yes, yes,
1:45:11yes, yes.
1:45:11>> And how do you get out of that? Well,
1:45:13by giving
1:45:14>> Well, with realism, with realism, right
1:45:16? I think victimhood also stems from a
1:45:18lack of strength that comes from a lack
1:45:21of limits, from not managing
1:45:23frustration in one's upbringing. I mean
1:45:26, when we are educating narcissists, we
1:45:27are raising narcissists and victims
1:45:29because we are giving them everything
1:45:31they want, how they want it, when they
1:45:32want it, and therefore we are creating
1:45:34people who have never faced frustration
1:45:36, not even with a bottle, because now
1:45:37it's feeding on demand, nor with a meal
1:45:39, like some well-prepared chard,
1:45:40because now it's whatever the child
1:45:42wants. So, of course, when" no "doesn't
1:45:46exist for them, the first frustration,
1:45:48the first failure, the first external"
1:45:50no, "traumatizes them terribly. No,
1:45:53they are not prepared for it. But you
1:45:55were talking about scars earlier, about
1:45:57scars. Scars are, well, I heard this
1:45:59from Eginio Marín, I love how he
1:46:01speaks, but scars are the cartography
1:46:03of our written biography, right? Scars
1:46:07are something I love because, for
1:46:08example, they are healed wounds, and
1:46:10how you are recognized by those wounds,
1:46:12I mean, how that suffering from the
1:46:13wound that has healed constitutes who
1:46:15you are. So it is your identity, right?
1:46:18Jesus Christ is recognized by Thomas
1:46:20through his wounds. Put your finger
1:46:21here, these are my wounds. You put your
1:46:23hand in, put your hand into my side.
1:46:24That's how he is recognized, right? But
1:46:26if we go further back, in the Odyssey,
1:46:29Ulysses is recognized by his nurse when
1:46:31he returns after 20 years dressed as a
1:46:33beggar; no one recognizes him, but his
1:46:35nurse recognizes him because of a scar.
1:46:38I mean, wounds that heal, well-healed
1:46:40wounds, are what give us our identity,
1:46:42right? So, don't run away from wounds,
1:46:44right? But learn to heal them well,
1:46:46that, yes, of course.
1:46:47>> Hey, that’s great. I think this is
1:46:48going to be for a second podcast,
1:46:50because having these two women here is
1:46:51enough for a hundred podcasts. But I
1:46:53wanted to finish with a series of quick
1:46:55questions we wanted to ask you, María,
1:46:57and the first is: what phrase and what
1:46:59message would you give to so many young
1:47:02girls who sometimes don't feel enough?
1:47:04>> Yes. Well, for them to love themselves,
1:47:06to get to know themselves, and to be
1:47:07fond of themselves. That the first
1:47:09people they have to please are
1:47:11themselves, but to please themselves
1:47:12with all their flaws, shortcomings, and
1:47:14weaknesses, which we all have, and to
1:47:16embrace, embrace those imperfections
1:47:18that are wonderful, that are the
1:47:19originality of life and make us human.
1:47:21That is to say, don't seek perfection,
1:47:23but rather embrace your imperfection,
1:47:24for that will give you so much, so much
1:47:26peace.
1:47:27>> And what would you say to your 14 or 15
1:47:29-year-old self?
1:47:31>> Oof! So many things, you know? Listen
1:47:36to your father and mother a little more
1:47:38, a little more, because they love you,
1:47:39they want the best for you, and anyway,
1:47:44don't go off the trail markers they've
1:47:46set for you in the snow so often, and
1:47:47forgive them too, right? So many things
1:47:51, because I had a very rebellious, a
1:47:52very rebellious adolescence. And like I
1:47:54say, well now that my parents have
1:47:58passed away, I would have liked to be
1:48:00able to give them a hug and thank them
1:48:01for everything they did. Tell me, what
1:48:04place does God have in your life?
1:48:06>> He is with me at all hours. So, He is
1:48:08with me at all hours. That is what I
1:48:11feel and what I perceive every instant.
1:48:13Perhaps one day I might notice a
1:48:16spiritual void. I hope not, and I know
1:48:18that I will have to struggle at that
1:48:20moment, but right now He is making it
1:48:22very easy for me, isn't He? It is true
1:48:25that He has given me many gifts, right?
1:48:30He has given me many gifts: my children
1:48:32, my parents, my husband, my work, my
1:48:34friends. So, well, how could I doubt
1:48:36the existence of God? And this has been
1:48:39wonderful. There have been three
1:48:40occasions where I was about to lose my
1:48:41life, but truly about to lose my life.
1:48:44And yet, not one...I cannot say," That
1:48:47was for me a, a radical change, "right?
1:48:50No, I mean, my life...I have always
1:48:52thought how dense we human beings are,
1:48:53that God puts us on the brink of death
1:48:55and we stay the same, because for me,
1:48:57nothing has changed. I had an ectopic
1:48:59pregnancy; I didn't know I was pregnant
1:49:01, or rather, I knew I was pregnant but
1:49:03didn't know it was ectopic, and that
1:49:05was a horror, and I arrived at the ER
1:49:07practically dead. And the doctor even
1:49:09said," We don't know why this lady is
1:49:10alive. "" We don't know why she is, "
1:49:13and my life has continued the same,
1:49:15because I always felt the presence of
1:49:17God. So, since God has never...I
1:49:19haven't had, I mean, I can't come here
1:49:21and say it was a conversion and the
1:49:22next day I was someone else; my life
1:49:24continues the same, right? So perhaps,
1:49:27the, the ordinary life, right? God in
1:49:31my ordinary and extraordinary life has
1:49:34always been at the same level, let's
1:49:36say, without
1:49:37>> and, and who is Jesus to you? Well, for
1:49:40me, masculinity—I am a student of
1:49:42masculinity—and Jesus is the most
1:49:45sublime model of balanced masculinity
1:49:47there can be, and at the same time, I
1:49:49am sure he is the face of his father,
1:49:51Joseph. I mean, I believe that if Jesus
1:49:54endured 40 days and 40 nights in the
1:49:56desert, it was because his father
1:49:57strengthened him with limits, with
1:49:59frustration, with managing failure; he
1:50:01taught him that he was God, but he was
1:50:03a child, and a man, and an adolescent
1:50:05and. And I believe it is that perfect
1:50:08mix between tenderness and strength,
1:50:10that strength to overcome the obstacles
1:50:12he had to overcome in the passion and
1:50:15in the desert, and yet, that tenderness
1:50:17with the woman, with the adulteress,
1:50:19with the children. That is what a man
1:50:21is, right? The perfect mix. That is why
1:50:23, again, we can study pedagogy,
1:50:24psychology, whatever you want. Go to
1:50:26the Gospels, go to Jesus Christ. Jesus
1:50:27Christ is the model of masculinity,
1:50:28tenderness, and strength. For what? To
1:50:30provide protection and security to the
1:50:32weak, the beautiful, the sublime, the
1:50:33sacred, the mysterious. The world needs
1:50:35men like that. The boldness and daring
1:50:37of Jesus is the boldness and daring of
1:50:39a man with a capital M. That is what it
1:50:40means to be a man. How beautiful.
1:50:43>> And Maria, who is the woman who has
1:50:45most influenced your life? Because
1:50:47doing an internet survey on who passed
1:50:51on the faith to you, 99%say my mother,
1:50:54>> right? How nice that is. Is there any
1:50:56woman, for example, Mother Teresa
1:50:57changed my life? Any woman who has
1:50:58especially influenced your life?
1:51:02>> My mother influenced me a tremendous
1:51:03amount, a tremendous amount, because my
1:51:05mother had eight children, eight
1:51:06horrible pregnancies. Mine had to be 9
1:51:09months without moving because if she
1:51:11moved, she would miscarry. And so,
1:51:13after having become a mother myself, I
1:51:15don't understand how my mother was able
1:51:17to do that. And not complain, not be a
1:51:21victim, never, never a word of
1:51:23complaint about a pregnancy, and all
1:51:25eight were high-risk. Eight. Never a
1:51:28complaint about her situation. Never,
1:51:31never, never. So, anyway, I am
1:51:34fascinated by her.
1:51:36>> Hey, what is your favorite book? Oh, I
1:51:39have many, but I love Dostoevsky’s
1:51:41The Brothers Karamazov, and by Han, I
1:51:44would read everything, everything he
1:51:46has, because I’m passionate about it.
1:51:51And then, well, if someone wants a good
1:51:52book on pedagogy, they should pick up
1:51:53the Bible; and if someone wants a good
1:51:55book on marriage, they should pick up
1:51:56the Song of Songs, because that is...
1:51:57well, we haven't talked about sexual
1:51:59love, but another day...that is, well,
1:52:00the fullness of the spiritualization of
1:52:02the body. It’s a thing, a gift that
1:52:04God has given us, a little piece of
1:52:05heaven on earth. Well, we’ve run out
1:52:07of time; we could stay here talking for
1:52:08hours. Thank you all very much for
1:52:10joining us. Thank you, Maria, for
1:52:12coming. Thank you so much, Maderga. I
1:52:14love doing this podcast with you. And
1:52:16well, leave us a comment below letting
1:52:17us know what you thought. Do you agree
1:52:19or not? If you want a second or a fifth
1:52:22part, because honestly, I think we’re
1:52:24going to have to invite Maria back, and
1:52:26well, hit the like button and share it
1:52:28with people who could be helped by
1:52:29these ideas to live that fullness,
1:52:31right? Understanding that masculinity,
1:52:33that femininity, is that whole vocation
1:52:35to love that we all have. So that’s
1:52:37it, thank you both very much for
1:52:38watching this podcast and don't forget,
1:52:39God loves you and wants you to be happy
1:52:41.

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