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No Blood Angels Unit Out-Damages Vanguard Veterans! (11th Edition) — Transcript

by BA Commander · 6,632 words · 1,044 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Hello my friends. I'm sure like me you
0:01started making some of these new
0:03Vanguard veterans from the Armageddon
0:04box. You were super excited about them.
0:07You thought Vanguard veterans were going
0:08to be really good. Then of course after
0:11we'd already bought these, they
0:12announced that there's a version with
0:13shields. So now we're working out how we
0:16can convert them. I'm actually still not
0:19fully sure of their loadout because
0:21there's a loadout in the app that says
0:23it's valid, but people are telling me in
0:25Discord it's not valid. But so anyway,
0:27there's a lot to talk about. We're going
0:29to talk about Vanguard veterans. Can
0:31strength five
0:33at cuz that's what they are now,
0:34strength five swords. Can we actually
0:37make those usable and good and and
0:39compare them to Death Company and
0:41Sanguinary Guard?
0:43Are these guys worth actually doing
0:44anything with or do these gray models
0:46need to go back into the pile of shame
0:48for another 6-12 months? I don't know.
0:54So hello friends and welcome back to the
0:56channel. Do the Vanguard veterans still
0:58have fangs? That is the question. I mean
1:01they used to have claws. They now have
1:03swords. So in this video we're going to
1:04discuss the Vanguard veterans. We're
1:06going to see if they're any good for
1:07Blood Angels. We're going to look at how
1:09we should run them. Someone actually put
1:11in a really interesting list this week
1:13and the list included the Chaplin with a
1:14jump pack using the Carnage spear tip
1:17detachment that is usually typically
1:19reserved for Sanguinary Guard, but does
1:21give the Chaplin the ability to get
1:23lethal hits or sustained hits on his
1:25unit for 20 points. So that's going to
1:27be the most interesting combo. But we
1:29are going to look at just a Chaplin with
1:31Vanguard veterans as a cheaper option
1:34most typically than the Death Company
1:35and Sanguinary Guard. And obviously I've
1:37just done videos on Death Company and
1:39Sanguinary Guard, so we're going to be
1:40able to compare the damage really easily
1:42and we're going to be able to see point
1:44for point who's doing the most damage.
1:46And the results have surprised me. So if
1:48they've surprised me, they're probably
1:50going to surprise you. Uh let's start
1:52with the Chaplin with a jump pack. Now
1:53this is a new model sort of. He has a
1:56Crozius and a bolt pistol.
1:59Um
2:00he gives you a line so on the charge and
2:03if your unit is below half strength, you
2:05get to reroll wound rolls. Now, we're
2:07going to come back to this um because
2:09this basically makes their weapons
2:11twin-linked when you're below half
2:12strength.
2:13Uh for 75 points, I mean the cost isn't
2:15the most exciting, but you will get an
2:18extra attack from being attached to the
2:20Vanguard Veterans on the charge, so
2:21you'll go to six attacks and he does
2:23have cleave one, so it'll be very easy
2:25against a five-man unit. He's on seven
2:27attacks with lance. Now, his AP isn't
2:29great, but seven attacks with lance
2:31potentially all the way up to 10 attacks
2:32with lance into a 20-man unit. Um he
2:35hits on twos as well, nice.
2:37Um strength six, a little bit better
2:39than the strength five. Um
2:41sure. If he's leading Vanguard Veterans,
2:43then I would recommend that you're
2:44probably going to run them in an uh
2:4610-man squad, so there would be uh 11
2:48guys in the squad including the Chaplin.
2:50Then, when you get to five models
2:52remaining, wound rolls become
2:53rerollable.
2:55Uh if you're leading a five-man squad,
2:56when you get to three models left, again
2:59wound rolls become rerollable. I think
3:00the interesting thing here and we're
3:02going to come back to it at the very end
3:04of the video, we're going to look at how
3:05much damage that five-man with
3:07rerollable wounds does against the base
3:1011-man.
3:11Keep that in mind.
3:13And then the idea as well here is you
3:15could give the Chaplin a 20-point
3:17enhancement in the Sanguinary Guard uh
3:19detachment to give them sustained hits
3:21or lethal. So, they're already going to
3:23have lance. They're going to be strength
3:24five lance. They're going to be four
3:26attacks per guy. But, we are going to be
3:28able to get sustained. We are going to
3:30be able to get lethals. And we are going
3:32to compare this to both Sanguinary Guard
3:34and Death Company. I mean, the
3:36interesting thing about them is four
3:37attacks per guy on the charge
3:40uh with a master-crafted power weapon is
3:42going to be 40 attacks. You know, you
3:44compare that to Death Company, they
3:46aren't getting anywhere close to 40
3:47attacks. You compare that to Sanguinary
3:49Guard, uh six-man Sanguinary Guard are
3:51getting 24 attacks. So, that's 16 more.
3:54Um so, that's what's going to be
3:55interesting, right?
3:57Uh the downside is obviously they hit on
3:59threes.
4:00Uh
4:01ironically, they finally took away the
4:03plus one to hit from Dante and that
4:04would actually be amazing for this unit.
4:06But,
4:08that's it. They hit on threes. There's
4:09no real way to buff that. Maybe you can
4:12buff it if you've got a dreadnought with
4:13the aura.
4:14So, you could get rerolls of one. But,
4:16for this video we're not going to be
4:17counting that. We're just going to
4:18assume they hit on threes.
4:20They're 220 points.
4:23Um,
4:24you know, but an average a Sanguinary
4:26Guard unit that's like 275
4:28points
4:30is only going to end up with 20 hits,
4:32right? Because they only get 24 attacks.
4:34So, the Vanguard Veterans are 55 points
4:36cheaper and they will end up
4:38statistically with 20 6.6 hits. So, it's
4:416.6 more hits for 55 points less.
4:45They'll both still have lances. So, the
4:46only real and they'll both still have AP
4:48two. So, the only real difference is the
4:50Vanguard Veterans on strength five,
4:52Sanguinary Guard are on strength six.
4:54Now, into a meta at the moment where
4:56like there's a lot of like toughness
4:58seven, toughness eight, toughness nine.
5:00There's no difference between those two
5:02units. So, I guess if you're we're
5:04fighting against toughness six, seven,
5:06or
5:07sorry, seven, eight, or nine,
5:10the Vanguard Veterans going to
5:11outperform the Sanguinary Guard in every
5:12situation.
5:14Uh,
5:15and I think that's going to be you're
5:16going to see how they perform throughout
5:18the video as we get to the math section.
5:20It's probably always worth taking the
5:22thunder hammer. The thunder hammer
5:23actually gets four attacks. There's not
5:25many character
5:27not There's not many non-character
5:29models. I don't think there's any
5:30actually they can get four attacks with
5:31a three damage thunder hammer. So, give
5:33the thunder hammer to your sergeant is
5:36probably the right call. But, I mean if
5:37you want to keep the relic blade, that's
5:39actually kind of okay as well.
5:41He will have four attacks with a
5:42potential cleave and he'll also have
5:44lethal hits baked in.
5:47Uh, the combat shields
5:49are a confusing one cuz it says all
5:51models in this unit can have their heavy
5:53bolt pistol replaced with combat shield.
5:55But, the app will let you replace the
5:58sergeant's
6:00heavy bolt pistol with a plasma pistol
6:02and then the app will let you replace
6:04four more models
6:06bolt pistol with plasma pistols. So you
6:08have five plasma pistols in the unit and
6:10then you can replace all the remaining
6:11heavy bolt pistols with combat shields.
6:14Now, I am not aware of any specific
6:16order you have to do in this. Somebody
6:18said you
6:20If you want to take combat shields, you
6:21need to take them in the whole unit. But
6:23like right now, a valid loadout in the
6:25app is five plasma pistols, five combat
6:27shields. Arguments have been made.
6:30Uh the app has been pretty buggy since
6:32the new Space Marine codex released. Who
6:34knows what's valid? But if the app says
6:36it's valid, I think for at least for
6:38now, that's valid. So if I was fielding
6:40them, I'd probably take five plasma
6:42pistols
6:43and five um
6:45combat shields.
6:46But I mean
6:48I guess five plasma pistols and five
6:49bolt pistols isn't the worst thing. 10
6:52combat shields also isn't the worst.
6:54Combat shield gives you that five up
6:55invulnerable could be useful.
6:57Keep some of them alive in some
6:59situations, right?
7:00Especially if you're playing Death
7:01Guard. Oh my goodness, I'm getting
7:03flamed by a million anti-infantry two up
7:06flamers with like AP3. Well, combat
7:08shield will help with that, you know?
7:10So anyway, that's what Vanguard Veterans
7:12are bringing. We're basically getting 40
7:14attacks, 36 of them with the power
7:16weapons, and then four of them with the
7:19relic blade or thunder hammer. I mean
7:21I feel like the thunder hammer you
7:22probably take, but the relic blade isn't
7:24a horrible option. Okay, uh their tactic
7:27is they have grenades, they fly, all
7:30that good stuff. So we're leading with
7:32the chaplain. We know that, right? So
7:34what does that give us? Um like I said,
7:3636 weapon skill three, five up two two
7:38lance, plus
7:41the four attacks weapon skill four up
7:42strength nine
7:45AP2 damage three lance devastating
7:47wounds. I think that's a typo uh by me
7:49because thunder hammers aren't strength
7:51nine anymore. My mistake.
7:54Uh okay, uh or you could take the relic
7:56blade.
7:57622. You got the cleave in there and
8:00lethal against non-monsters or vehicles.
8:02And then your chaplain, five attacks.
8:05Uh I mean I guess I forgot to add the
8:07plus one for charging. Excuse me. Um,
8:09six attacks
8:11uh with strength six, AP one, damage
8:14two, lance, and lethal. Right. We have
8:16the potential, obviously, to add lethals
8:18or sustained, and depending on your
8:20detachments, there's other ways to get
8:22that as well.
8:24Um,
8:25so if we do add the angelic
8:29executioner attachment, this unit's 315
8:31points. So, 11 Marines, 350 points,
8:34three up, five up on
8:37half or all of them, uh toughness five,
8:39and then reroll wounds once half
8:41strength or less. Unfortunately, half
8:43strength is going to be five guys
8:44remaining from the 11. And like I know
8:47there's more ways to buff these guys.
8:48Like I said, um
8:50there's ways to get lethals and
8:51sustained based on what strategems you
8:53play and stuff, but like we're just kind
8:55of wanting to see what they can do base
8:57versus the Sanguinary Guard and Death
8:58Company because we can buff those units
9:00as well. So, if we know what the base
9:01is, we can compare it all together.
9:03Uh and also, I want to see what the base
9:05is without going crazy and spending all
9:06our CP, right?
9:08So, uh if you think you're going to get
9:10some value or you do get some value
9:12later on in this video, please do
9:13subscribe. I would appreciate it or like
9:15the video. Um and like the video if you
9:17do enjoy my content in general. So, like
9:20the last two videos, we've tested all
9:22these enemies for the Death Company and
9:24Sanguinary Guard. So, that's super
9:25useful. So, that gives us like
9:28the two, I guess, poster boys or the two
9:30big Blood Angels units. Do they do Can
9:33the Vanguard Veterans compete with them?
9:36Uh so, let's get into it. So, the very
9:37first slide, we'll take the against the
9:4010 Ork Nobz, the toughness five, three
9:43wounds per model, four up save, Chaplain
9:45plus lethal hits, Chaplain plus
9:47sustained. We're always going to be
9:48doing the Chaplain. We're always going
9:49to be procking the extra thing.
9:51Uh and then, we're going to work out
9:54damage per 100 points, and I've got last
9:56week's numbers as well. So, for this
9:58unit, damage per 100 points is 8.9. It
10:02would be best, however, if you focus on
10:04sustained hits against these lower
10:06toughness enemies.
10:07Um so, you just get more hits. So, your
10:09damage per 100 points with um
10:12executioner
10:14is 9.2.
10:16So, if you compare that to Death
10:17Company, that's a whole one extra damage
10:19per 100 points. Compare that to
10:20Sanguinary Guard, that's like two and a
10:21half extra damage per 100 points. So,
10:24just because you've got those extra
10:26guys, you're making extra hits, you've
10:27got more attacks. We're going into
10:30toughness five, which is kind of fine.
10:32Um you can see straight away Vanguard
10:34Veterans are outperforming both Blood
10:36Angels units into Nods. Uh let's move on
10:39to Custodian Wardens. They're now
10:40toughness seven with uh six wounds, two
10:43up, five up, sorry, two up, four up.
10:46And they also have a baked-in minus one
10:48AP. Now, this is a very durable unit. Uh
10:51and we saw last week that the Sanguinary
10:53Guard and Death Company really struggled
10:55to kill them. Damage per point for the
10:58Vanguard Veterans again is a good bit
10:59higher, 1.2 damage per 100 higher.
11:03Uh and one whole damage per 100 points
11:06higher on than the Sanguinary Guard. If
11:08we have lethals and sustained again,
11:10we will indeed make more damage. We go
11:13up to all the way to four points of
11:16damage per 100. Again, 1.5
11:19more damage per 100 points than the
11:22Sanguinary Guard. So, I mean, the way to
11:23look at that is when you charge in this
11:26unit,
11:30you know, you could just times this by
11:313.6, right? So, you're expecting like
11:34seven damage.
11:36Fine. Times the Vanguard Veterans with
11:39sustained hits by like three, you're
11:41getting 12 damage. So, that's seven
11:44damage from the Sanguinary Guard, that's
11:4512 damage from the cheaper unit, the
11:4850-point cheaper unit
11:51of Vanguard Veterans. I It was at about
11:54this precise point when I'm making these
11:56slides that I twigged in my head that
12:01obviously, Codex Space Marines has come
12:03out.
12:04And what we should probably be doing as
12:06Blood Angels player is taking most of
12:08our units from Codex Space Marines. Cuz
12:10I do not really think
12:12within the lore of Warhammer anyway that
12:15a unit of Vanguard Veterans
12:18should be
12:20doing, you know, five
12:22It's almost double at that point, right?
12:24We said seven damage from the Sanguinary
12:25Guard, 12 damage from the cheaper
12:28Vanguard Veterans. So, like
12:31I don't think we should be in a
12:32situation where Vanguard Veterans are
12:33out damaging the Sanguinary Guard. I
12:36mean, it's not quite two to one, but
12:37it's like 1.8 to one or something. Like,
12:39it's 80% more damage. 12 versus seven.
12:42Um I mean
12:45I was going to say my uh
12:47my math skills are decent, but maybe not
12:49that good. 12 / 7? Okay, 71% more
12:52damage.
12:53So, uh and remember this unit is 50
12:56points cheaper as well. So, I mean, it's
12:58um
12:59it's interesting, right? Like, I kind of
13:01write written Vanguard Veterans off
13:02because of their strength five. But, I
13:04guess if Sanguinary Guard are really
13:05only strength six
13:07and Sanguinary Guard are super
13:09expensive, which I think we know they
13:11are, super expensive, then um
13:13let's keep going. Into a Rhino.
13:15Toughness nine, 10 wounds, three up
13:18save. Uh point for point again
13:22Vanguard Veterans are 3.4, Death Company
13:25coming in at 2.9, Sanguinary Guard
13:26coming in at 2.6. If we've got lethals
13:28are sustained
13:30doesn't help all that much into a
13:32toughness nine uh attack
13:34it's 3.2. So, um
13:38I mean, I think one of the reasons that
13:40these guys do more damage as well is we
13:41got to remember that a thunder hammer is
13:43there and that you get four attacks on
13:45the thunder hammer. So, you know, like
13:47every single situation the guy with the
13:49thunder hammer is doing some decent
13:50damage because he's got four attacks.
13:52And you that can spike a little bit.
13:54It's It's enough attacks that could
13:55spike up and on average it's going to
13:58bring out some good damage. Um let's
14:00keep going. The Silent King, toughness
14:0210. Now, toughness 10 is the absolute
14:04worst number for Vanguard Veterans,
14:07right? Because Vanguard Veterans only
14:08wound toughness 10 on sixes, where
14:11Sanguinary Guard will still wound on
14:12fives and they've both got lance. So,
14:14Sanguinary Guard will wound toughness 10
14:16on fours. Vanguard Veterans will wound
14:18toughness 10 on five. So, this is the
14:20worst match up. So, uh we can do the
14:22lethals and we can do the sustained
14:24hits. And what we can see again is that
14:27Vanguard Veterans will once again, with
14:29no buffs, still outperform both Death
14:31Company and Sanguinary Guard. And if we
14:33do lethal hits, which is really going to
14:35be useful when our wound rolls are bad,
14:37like our wound rolls are fives,
14:39um
14:40we're actually going to do 4.5. Again,
14:43that's all not quite 50% more than the
14:46than the Sanguinary Guard, but very
14:47close to 50% and into the Death Company
14:514.5 / 2.6, you're probably talking like
14:5570%.
14:56So, I think um last week when we looked
14:58at like the Sanguinary Guard, they
15:00really struggled to kill two men here's,
15:02while the Vanguard Veterans in both
15:03situations will kill the two men here's.
15:06Um
15:06and then into the Custodian and Wardens,
15:09again, they really struggled to kill two
15:12Custodian Wardens, again, the Vanguard
15:14Veterans will be killing two Custodian
15:15Wardens. So,
15:17in every of the first four with first
15:19four we've looked at, in every
15:20situation, the Vanguard Veterans are
15:22doing a lot more damage than both the
15:24Death Company and the Sanguinary Guard,
15:25and they are cheaper.
15:27So, I get my brain at this point, I'm
15:28like, should I just be getting the old I
15:31think I've got 20 Vanguard Veterans. Do
15:33we just need to break them out? Like, is
15:35that what we should be running? Like,
15:37um
15:40it's interesting because you have to
15:41take the Sanguinary Guard detachment to
15:43get this. You could You know, like if
15:44you if you're ever in a situation where
15:46you're paying that tax on that third you
15:48know, like a quite a few people have
15:49been running three units of Sanguinary
15:50Guard, they're paying that extra 15
15:52points for the third unit of Sanguinary
15:53Guard. Why are you doing that? Why
15:55aren't you taking a unit of Vanguard
15:57Veterans that's like cheaper anyway and
16:00is going to do more damage? The negative
16:02side of Vanguard Veterans, obviously,
16:03they're not minus one to hitting uh in
16:05shooting or they're not minus one to be
16:07wounded, but here's the thing, they
16:09still do have advance and charge and
16:10they still do have a 12-in move. So, you
16:12can still hide them very effectively and
16:14you can still make the offer strike,
16:16right? Like, most of the time your
16:18sanguinary guard get killed after
16:20they've made a charge.
16:22So, if we're talking about making a
16:23charge and and wiping out an enemy unit,
16:26the vanguard veterans are the unit
16:27that's more likely to do that. So, you
16:29still hide them. You still advance and
16:31charge when you need it.
16:33But, when you advance and charge when
16:34you need it, you're not going to get hit
16:35back nearly as hard because you're
16:37killing twice as much stuff.
16:40Okay, let's go into Mortarion. Again, a
16:42really bad match up for vanguard
16:44veterans. I mean, you could argue it's a
16:45bad match up for sanguinary guard and
16:47death company as well. And the numbers
16:48say that pretty much is. Vanguard
16:50veterans 2.5
16:52against 1.7. So, you are getting like
16:5540% more damage per 100 points into
16:58Mortarion
17:00with the vanguard veterans. The lethal
17:03hits, obviously, are the best against
17:04like a big nasty toughness thing
17:07where your wound rolls are low, but
17:08sustained hits still gives you
17:11you know, a good amount of more damage
17:13than what the sanguinary guard or death
17:14company. And like I said, there is ways
17:16to combo these up. There is a strategem
17:17you could use to get both lethals and
17:19sustained. So, you could argue the
17:21vanguard veterans can hit even harder if
17:23they need to.
17:25Into stompa,
17:26the vanguard veterans are actually able
17:28to do 15 damage to stompa with the
17:30lethal hits. They go all the way to five
17:33damage per 100 points. Sanguinary guard
17:37are doing two and a half. So, in this
17:38situation, the vanguard veterans are
17:41literally two to one-ing them.
17:43So, if you charge a stompa with six
17:45sanguinary guard
17:46uh
17:48plus a character, 365 points. And you
17:51charge them with a chaplain with lethal
17:53hits plus 10 vanguard veterans, 315
17:56points.
17:58Um you know, you are doing not quite
18:00double, but like it's up there, right?
18:03Like it is crazy. These guys will do 15
18:05damage to a stompa.
18:07Um
18:07sustained hits helps, but
18:09lethal hits will talk about it. I've
18:11worked out the break point for when to
18:13use lethal hits and when to use
18:14sustained hits. We've got a slide about
18:15that just coming up. Uh and into the
18:18stompa, but company only do 2.3 damage,
18:20right? Like, I mean, here's the thing,
18:22these units are much more durable than
18:24they were before, right? Like, I don't
18:26want to count off durability, and maybe
18:28we'll do another video where we take all
18:30three of these units together, and we'll
18:32include durability, and you know, Death
18:34Company have a feel no pain, and
18:36Sanguinary Guard have minus one to
18:37wound, and they can get
18:40minus one to hit, as well. But, like, if
18:42we're just talking about damage, and we
18:44just want to be fast, and we want to be
18:46sort of glass cannon, and we want to
18:48kill things on the charge, then
18:51it's it's a really hard argument, like
18:54I've I've played three games since the
18:56new Codex, and every game I've really
18:57felt like my Sanguinary Guard or Death
18:59Company just haven't been good enough.
19:01And I think potentially the
19:04the numbers have been staring me
19:05straight in the face. I should have just
19:06looked at
19:08the Vanguard Veterans with the extra
19:09attacks,
19:11and the sustained or lethal, or both.
19:13So, if we're going to do this, sustained
19:16and lethal is also on a stratagem in
19:18tactics as attack force. Tactics lets
19:20you reroll all your advances, right? So,
19:22you've got two of these units, two
19:24Chaplains, 20 Vanguard Veterans. That
19:26means both of them have advanced and
19:27charged. Potentially, both of them
19:29reroll their advances, you know? And
19:32then,
19:33both of them can have sustained hits or
19:36lethal hits, or maybe you can put both
19:37onto one unit.
19:39Um
19:41They also still have potentially big
19:42consolidation movements, as well, and
19:45also the ability to fight first for one
19:47CP. So, if we talk about all that,
19:53there's a real interest here for me on
19:55these Vanguard Veterans, like, have we
19:56been sleeping on them?
19:58Um
20:01So, Vanguard the vets plus the Chaplain,
20:03right? So, if we include like no
20:04enhancements, how much damage do they do
20:06to these things, right? Like, so, we're
20:08not we're not going to use angelic
20:09inheritors, we're still going to just
20:11look at like the base, what they can do.
20:15Uh and it and it comes back down to
20:18these guys still outperform Death
20:19Company and Sanguinary Guard point for
20:20point into every target. Now, they're
20:24not going to outperform typically maybe
20:26on survivability, but in raw damage,
20:29they are better into every target.
20:31Um
20:32>> [snorts]
20:34>> We're killing eight almost nine knobs.
20:36We're killing almost two Custodes. We're
20:38killing that Rhino.
20:40Uh we're
20:41destroying both men here's. We're doing
20:44seven damage to Mortarion, and we're
20:46doing 11 damage potentially to the
20:50Stompa.
20:51When do we use lethal and sustained,
20:53right? Uh if we wound on threes, we
20:56should always take sustained hits.
20:58Uh if we wound on fours,
21:01um we should take sustained hits. If
21:04we're
21:07Sometimes on fours, it can actually make
21:09no difference. Lethals and sustained
21:10math out the same. The second that our
21:12wound rolls become fives to wound, then
21:15we should move on to lethals. Uh and
21:17into the Silent King, we should do
21:18lethals. Into Mortarion, we should do
21:20lethals. Into Stompa, we should do
21:22lethals. So, lethals when you're
21:24wounding on fives,
21:25sustained against anything before before
21:28that.
21:29Um
21:30cuz at fours, it's kind of 50/50, right?
21:33Like the sustained is a little bit
21:34better into this one, but for the most
21:36part, it's the same.
21:37So,
21:38uh
21:39the sixes from the lethals obviously
21:40skip a wound roll that you would mostly
21:42fails on fours. It's that coin flip,
21:45right? So, use sustained every time you
21:47go into infantry, use lethals into any
21:49everything toughness 10 and above. And
21:52if we bring back the
21:55stratagem, you'll see here that the
21:57stratagem is sustained hits into
21:59non-monsters and vehicles, or lethals
22:02into monsters and vehicles. So, you
22:04could have two units using this, two
22:06Chaplains, 20 uh Vanguard Veterans, 10
22:09with each, and both units can basically
22:12optimize to do maximum damage at all
22:15situations. And if we go back to the
22:18maximum damage in all situations, you
22:20see like into a Stompa, it's literally
22:22double the Sanguinary Guard, more than
22:24double on the Death Company. into
22:26Mortarion, what do we say? It was like
22:2740% better into the Silent King. It's
22:30[snorts] like
22:31Mhm.
22:3210% No, with the lethal hits, yeah, it's
22:34like 40% better. Uh into these guys,
22:38maybe it's into Rhino, it's maybe 10%
22:41better. Into the Wardens, again, if
22:43we're optimized, which both units could
22:45be, uh
22:47>> [snorts]
22:48>> we're like 70% better and into the Nobz.
22:51And then we're not massively better, but
22:52we're we're still a good bit better. So,
22:54it's like
22:58Shoot, Blood Angels players just be
22:59running two squads of Vanguard Veterans,
23:0110 mans plus Chaplains, because
23:05that is the optimized damage output. I
23:07mean, the math doesn't lie. So, the tool
23:09that I used for this video is literally
23:11uh
23:11a tool that I made. I made a video about
23:13it. It's free. You can just come over
23:15here. You can load in your different
23:16units. You can save them. It's all
23:18stored locally, and you can calculate
23:20out all this damage. So, I use it every
23:22week for the math video. And so, please,
23:23if if you think it would be interesting
23:25to you, check out. But, I use the tool
23:27one last time to do Vanguard Veterans um
23:31vs. the Death Company vs. the Sanguinary
23:33Guard for the pure damage per points.
23:36So, basically, what this means is for
23:37every 100 points, uh we show you the
23:40amount of damage you've done, and
23:42whether it's better to be using
23:43sustained and lethal. So, it pretty much
23:46uh aligns with what I said, but you can
23:48see here like the Death Company and the
23:50Sanguinary Guard,
23:51they don't win in any situations. Um
23:55they're not even really close in most of
23:57the situations. Uh so, the Vanguard
23:59Veterans outdamage both Blood Angels
24:01units into every target. Uh and into the
24:03big targets, it's like 30% overall
24:06damage better
24:07uh by having the lethal hits at the
24:09right time. So, that's your two
24:11stratagems that you probably want to be
24:12using, right? Like, stack lethal and
24:15stack lethal and lance or sustained and
24:17lance on both units, do maximum damage,
24:21and then hope, I guess, that those storm
24:23shields uh no, combat can protect you,
24:26or hope that you killed so much more
24:28than the Sanguinary Guard that you you
24:30know
24:31and because you've got a big unit,
24:32losses aren't quite as expensive. Now,
24:35here's the interesting thing. What about
24:37when half strength, right? What when
24:38there's only five of 11 left. So, you've
24:41got your chaplain, you've got your
24:42hammer hammer sergeant, so it's your
24:43thunder hammer sergeant. You've got
24:45three veterans left. You're still
24:46charging and you're re-rolling all
24:48wounds, right? So, your full squad
24:50versus half squad of damage kept. So,
24:53into the orc knobs, your full squad did
24:55like 26 damage. You do 71% of the damage
24:59when you only have five of 11 left. So,
25:01that re-rolling wounds is bringing back
25:04like 21% of the damage. Into the
25:06wardens, it's bringing back 20% of the
25:08damage. Into the rhino, it's bringing
25:11back like 46% of the damage. Into the
25:13silent king, it's bringing back 84. Into
25:16mortarian, it's bringing back 82. Into
25:19the stompa, it's bringing back 83. And
25:21that's with no buffs. That's no lethal
25:23and no sustained.
25:24So, basically what you're telling me is
25:26that like this unit on half strength,
25:29if you averaged all those numbers there,
25:31it's about 80%, right? 96, 80 80 80 70
25:3570. That is about 80 So, they are
25:38keeping 80% of their damage when they
25:41have taken six casualties.
25:44If that's not really meaningful,
25:47especially in a detached like you are
25:49playing an army that gives you advance
25:51and charge and fall back and charge. So,
25:54for the most part you should be able to
25:55make those charges. You should be able
25:56to fall back and charge. We don't care
25:58about their pistols. I mean, shoot their
25:59pistols if you want, throw a grenade if
26:02you want. We care about doing damage
26:04with these units in melee. And they're
26:06keeping 80% of their damage. If we go
26:08for lethal hits, it's a little bit less,
26:10of course, right?
26:12If we go for sustained hits, it's
26:14actually surprisingly similar because
26:16you just get more hits and your wound
26:17rolls are super reliable. So, uh with
26:20less than half of the models left into
26:22basically every situation apart from
26:25some of these lethal hit situations.
26:26Remember, these were situations you
26:27should not be using lethals on. You
26:29should be using the sustained. Uh so,
26:31it's just some of these ones down here.
26:33So, lethals become slightly less
26:35valuable when you get to re-roll wounds.
26:38So, basically, once you get to re-roll
26:40wounds, you should just sustained hits
26:42all the time. So, you want to be
26:43sustained hitting on all the time. And
26:45if you do that, then the lowest number
26:47you get is 72%.
26:50So, basically, what that tells you is
26:52you've lost six casualties.
26:55I feel that's significant with a five-up
26:57invulnerable save, right? So, with a
26:58five-up invulnerable save, you should
27:00pass about a third. So, you've had to
27:02take 10 saves at AP2 two damage, right?
27:06And you failed statistically like six of
27:08them. That's about average, right?
27:10Because you've got the five-up invun.
27:12So, if you've taken 10 saves on that
27:14unit at AP2 two damage or AP3 or AP4,
27:17whatever, it doesn't matter. You've got
27:18the combat shields.
27:19That unit can still do
27:22a minimum of 72% of its damage, but in
27:24some cases it can do like 80 85% of its
27:29initial damage. Uh the reason being that
27:32the chaplain is getting lots of attacks.
27:34He's getting to re-roll everything. And
27:35that thunder hammer is getting lots of
27:37attacks. And he's getting to re-roll
27:39everything. And if he's re-rolling his
27:41wounds, he's getting an extra six or two
27:43devastating wounds. So, you keep those
27:45those models safe.
27:47So, like re-rolling wounds takes the
27:49value out of the lethals. So, what you
27:51just want to do is at half strength, go
27:53sustained everywhere if you can.
27:55Obviously, you can definitely do it on
27:56the one unit. On the other unit, which
27:58the stratagem only lets you use
27:59sustained in certain situations. But,
28:03you are keeping that wound re-rolls is
28:05keeping so much of your initial damage.
28:08So, you know, like you're losing uh
28:11I feel like losing six vanguard veterans
28:13is pretty meaningful. You know, like if
28:14you were in a combat and they attack you
28:16back and it's like plague marines or
28:18something, you take 10 saves at AP2 two
28:21damage. So, basically, 21 damage fails.
28:25Yeah, 20 damage 20 individual one
28:27damages. Or could be six three damage,
28:29right? You're going to get attacked by
28:30something big like a demon prince that
28:32does 10 attacks. He does 10 attacks at
28:34damage three. You pass three or four of
28:36them. You're still keeping 80% of your
28:39damage.
28:40Um obviously you need to get lance, so
28:42you need to fall back and charge back in
28:43to to to to achieve that. But that's
28:46totally doable I feel like, right? Like
28:48if you if you have a turn one advance
28:50and chart, well you're not going to turn
28:52one you're going to stage, turn two
28:53you're going to advance and charge, turn
28:54three you're going to fall back and
28:56charge, and then turn four maybe you
28:59you advance charge again. You might not
29:00need it, but you get my point, right? Um
29:03and if if if these guys are going to go
29:05in for an alpha strike in turn two and
29:07survive with like half strength or you
29:10know, they're going to take casualties
29:11after that alpha strike and be able to
29:13fight back with 80%
29:16I think this is what we should be doing.
29:17Um maybe this will solve my problems of
29:19like feeling my units don't do enough
29:21damage. But uh this is eye-opening and I
29:23I didn't expect to be able to keep eight
29:25like if in my brain if I've lost six
29:27Fang or Veterans, I'm not expecting to
29:29keep 85% my damage against the Silent
29:31King or 84% of my damage into Mortarion.
29:36That's crazy.
29:37Um cuz I think if you've lost half your
29:40unit of Sanguinary Guard, you've just
29:41lost half your damage output. Simple as
29:43that, right? Like you every model that
29:45you lose in the Sanguinary Guard hurts
29:47so much.
29:48In this unit
29:50you lose over half
29:52and you lose 20% damage. So arguably
29:55when these units are down to like three
29:57guys left they will still do some
29:59damage. Um I mean they won't do much,
30:02but the re-roll wounds is doing so much
30:04heavy lifting it's crazy. I mean twin
30:06hits good, right?
30:07That's what it essentially becomes.
30:09Uh so what the math says for this unit
30:11is like they are the best of the three
30:13even unbuffed. Like big monsters are
30:15still a problem. Like you know, you
30:17still only do 10 damage into Mortarion,
30:19you still only do 16 damage into stompa,
30:21but they're just so much better than
30:23than what damage output you'd get from
30:25the Sanguinary Guard or the Death
30:26Company.
30:27Uh the executioner adds about 30% per
30:29point into toughness seven seven
30:32uh and also use lethals if the full
30:34squad is hitting high like the second
30:36you wound rolls move to fives, start
30:38using lethals.
30:40Um
30:42That also takes the normal white chance
30:44from 44% to 80% with a sustain. So like
30:48you just you just
30:50you get lots of options here. At half
30:52strength we get to keep 70 to 85% of
30:54their damage.
30:56Um
30:57Also always go sustained when your model
30:59count is below half because
31:02plus one to wound with reroll wounds is
31:04just really powerful. You just want more
31:05hits at that point.
31:07Uh you keep the chaplain and hammer
31:08alive. I mean that's like a no-brainer.
31:10And like make sure you charge so you get
31:12lance and that extra attack. That's
31:14what's possibly making them good. Um So
31:17the question is the question was do they
31:19still have fangs? Are they still a good
31:21unit? Why are we not playing them?
31:23Uh I think they're the best of the three
31:25and I feel like I'm short-sighted. Like
31:27I should have seen this. I should have
31:28math'd it earlier. Of course the unit in
31:31Space Marine Codex was going to be
31:32better than the unit in the Blood Angels
31:34Codex cuz we didn't Well, we didn't get
31:36a Codex, did we? We just got like a data
31:38slate update that let's be fair was like
31:42phoned in. You know, like nobody looked
31:44at it too seriously. There was a lot of
31:46problems with it. The points are all
31:47over the place.
31:49So of course we should be looking at
31:51units in the Space Marine Codex. I mean
31:54I already I needed to do a video on
31:55Outriders next because I found out that
31:57basically Outriders with a chaplain
31:59every time they they go to shoot,
32:01they're going to do like seven
32:02devastating wounds before they even get
32:04into combat, which is
32:06quote unquote a little bit silly. But
32:08again, it comes down to the they now hit
32:10on twos. They now have twin linked. Um
32:13They now have devastating wounds on
32:15their shooting. So um
32:18of course we should be looking harder at
32:19Space Marine units for now.
32:22Play them
32:23in a Blood Angels army if you want.
32:27Um
32:28I don't necessarily think you need any
32:30Blood Angels characters.
32:33Um I mean I mean maybe you'd still want
32:35a couple of small units of Sanguinary
32:37Guard in there. Maybe you want the
32:38Sanguinary Priest to make the the
32:40company heroes toughness six. But, yeah,
32:42Vanguard Veterans, I think if you
32:44haven't fielded them,
32:45you probably should.
32:47And I think I'm going to field 20 of
32:48them with two Chaplains in my next
32:50battle report. I think I haven't played
32:52the tactical tactic assault force, I
32:55think is the name of the
32:57the detachment. Um
32:59I haven't I've done assault brethren,
33:01I've done Encarmine spearhead. I haven't
33:03done Encarmine spearhead with tactics as
33:04tact force. I think I'm doing these two
33:06together.
33:07And jury's out yet on if we're doing the
33:10Imperium sword one. We might cuz I like
33:12Imperium sword. Um
33:14But, yeah, I think this is interesting.
33:17This is something that
33:18is worth considering and worth trying.
33:22If you didn't watch last week's video on
33:24the Sanguinary Guard, you can check it
33:25out and see if you think they are elite
33:27or overrated. I think last week I was
33:31very much on the fence.
33:33In the middle.
33:34I guess you can go watch that video, but
33:36now based on what we've just seen from
33:38Vanguard Veterans, I think the
33:39Sanguinary Guard might be overrated. Uh
33:41like I said, if you want to check out
33:43any of the links in the video
33:44description or support the channel, I
33:46would appreciate that. There's Patreon,
33:48there's affiliate links if you're buying
33:50some new models. Um
33:53Thank you so much for watching to the
33:54end of the video. Leave me a comment.
33:55Have you tried Vanguard Veterans? Are
33:57you going to?
33:58Uh I think I've got some that I need to
34:00get painted. I think I'm going shields.
34:03Because I think most of the time I end
34:04up shooting my jump infantry. I usually
34:06regret it because then they not able to
34:08get hidden and they get killed from long
34:10range by guns.
34:12So, I think maybe if I go all shields,
34:14it will stop me shooting.
34:16Because I won't have anything to shoot
34:17with. So,
34:19so I can't I can't be tempted to make
34:21the wrong play to try and kill something
34:22when shooting, which normally doesn't
34:24happen. Um I mean, I do like the new
34:26Sanguinary Guard inferno pistols. The
34:289-in The 9-in lets you shoot them a lot
34:30more. The assault lets you shoot the
34:32Sanguinary Guard a lot more. But, my
34:33god, are they costly. And these guys are
34:35pretty cost you know.
34:37If I'm going to field 20 Vanguard
34:38Veterans and two Chaplains,
34:41and that that's only going to be 600
34:42points. So, that's that's going to be
34:44cheaper than 12 sanguinary guard. I feel
34:46like that's a lot
34:49Yeah, that's a lot more potential damage
34:51output.
34:53I think that's I think that's what I'm
34:54missing in my in my Blood Angels melee
34:57is just not being good enough this
34:58edition.
34:59So, maybe that's what we're trying next.
35:01Guys, thanks for watching. Have a great
35:03week. I hope you enjoyed the video. I
35:04will talk to you all soon. By the blood
35:07are made strong.
35:08Peace.
35:10>> [music]

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