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Neuro-Spicy: Discussing ADHD with Dr. Kristin Carothers | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast — Transcript

by Trevor Noah · 18,826 words · 2,108 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00But this is my ADHD as well,
0:02When I'm in a dirty car, like a car that has everything in it,
0:07all I can see and hear is the trash moving while you're driving.
0:12So I don't know if you've ever taken the time to do it.
0:14Don't because it will throw you like depending on what type of car you have
0:17while you're driving around the like, the sand is jumping in the mud.
0:22It's like you don't see it, like bouncing.
0:24And then you see on the dashboard,
0:25it's like a little colony of dirt that's celebrating at every stoplight.
0:29Doesn't bother you like, no.
0:30And then and then and then there's a plastic.
0:32Cup that rattles at every turn, at.
0:34Every stop. And I'm like, how are you living like this?
0:37I got go, are you living.
0:38Like this extra pair of socks?
0:40Oh no. No.
0:41Oh. Nice knife. Just in case somebody tries to run up on me.
0:46I have, like, one of those things that you crack the window.
0:49I get it now.
0:51Like I'm in this pocket.
0:52And then in the middle pocket I have.
0:54Lotion and contact lens solution and an inhaler and like, oh my God.
0:58And then you open this door.
0:59There might be, like a greeting. Card in case I'm.
1:02Going to a birthday party. And I see you in the car.
1:04Wow. Wow.
1:05I make up like, if I don't get a chance to put on makeup in the morning.
1:08Yeah, there's foundation on my steering wheel.
1:10I shouldn't be proud to say it, but it's just.
1:12Like it's a like.
1:14It's like it's okay.
1:15It's.
1:20This is what now
1:22with Trevor Noah.
1:33Well, Doctor Carruthers, thank you for joining us.
1:34Thank you. Podcast.
1:36You're a clinical psychologist? Yes.
1:38Just to set the scene for for, like, the conversation I wanted to have today.
1:41Help me break down what you do and how it applies to ADHD.
1:45Okay. I'm a clinical psychologist.
1:47And when you work with children and adolescents, one of the predominant
1:51disorders or mental health presentations you're going to work with is attention
1:54deficit hyperactivity disorder. Yeah.
1:57And so for me I diagnose ADHD.
2:01And it's three forms.
2:03I provide intervention and I do consultation
2:06or coaching of parents when it comes to kids.
2:10Now, my practice has taken a bit of a turn,
2:13and I work a lot with adults who have just learned I had ADHD,
2:17or they have it and I'm teaching them how to manage,
2:20like parenting and having a relationship and having a career
2:24while you're trying to also live a life with ADHD.
2:28Does does everyone have ADHD?
2:30We all have characteristics,
2:33but that does not mean we meet clinical criteria for the.
2:37Diagnosis, but we meet tick tock criteria. We definitely meet.
2:40I mean, we.
2:41And. Everybody everyone has ADHD.
2:43Yes. Explain the difference because some people actually dismiss
2:47the validity of ADHD as a diagnosis that like, well, everyone has.
2:51And then some people inflate it the other way
2:53and they go like, oh, I definitely have it.
2:55And I'll say, no, you're just disorganized.
2:57So first of all, what is it that you have?
2:59Because there are three different forms. Okay.
3:01So there's hyperactive impulsive presentation.
3:04Hyperactive impulsive. And what does that look like?
3:06That looks like you are always on the go, Energizer bunny.
3:10You keep going and going and going. You talk nonstop.
3:13You're doing 15 different projects.
3:15You are, moving from one topic to the next.
3:18You're running when you should be walking.
3:20If you're a little kid, you're climbing
3:22when it's dangerous to climb, you're just acting before you think.
3:26Can this be presented like so?
3:27I know with some people it's like the persistent tapping.
3:30Is that. The high? Okay, so that hyperactivity.
3:33Like they need to be constantly moving
3:35or they can't sit still in a chair for a while.
3:37So people can be anxious and do that. People can do that.
3:39So there can be lots of different functions of certain behaviors.
3:42So that's another thing like the tapping doesn't mean you have ADHD,
3:45but what you will find is that people with ADHD tend to be a little bit louder.
3:50They tend to move their bodies more.
3:52They tend to have difficulty being aware of, like their body,
3:57and that their bodies are moving and that sometimes is restless energy.
4:00But that can you can also see that for people who have like anxiety,
4:03then you have the inattentive presentation, which is like space cadet,
4:07you are forgetting things. You're losing things.
4:09You're drifting off into space.
4:11You're supposed to be focused on one task and before you know it, like
4:15Bonnie runs across your path and you like.
4:18Yeah, but I mean. Everyone should look at the brain.
4:20I always worry about people who don't look at the money.
4:23If you're living your life and a buddy runs across your pocket,
4:25you don't look at the bunny.
4:26Who are you? Who are you? What life are you living?
4:29I don't know, but it's not a good one.
4:31And so you got. Hyperactive, impulsive type.
4:34You got inattentive presentation and then the third is the combination.
4:38Of all three. Oh, the big boss. Who?
4:40The big boss, which is where in some settings are hyperactive, impulsive.
4:45And those same settings. You might be inattentive.
4:47And this is when you see people really start to struggle
4:51and you have to have
4:55disruption in social and occupational functioning.
5:00What that means is this has to be negatively impacting your relationships
5:05or it has to be causing trouble on your job occupationally, right?
5:09If you're a kid, you don't have a job. You have schools.
5:12So what you see is difficulty, like getting through a test or forgetting
5:16to turn the homework. And even though you did the home. Right.
5:19Or losing the worksheets, with my kids that I work with,
5:22I'll have them bring the book back in and it looks like a war zone.
5:27I get that.
5:29But for adults, and I talk about myself.
5:33The house is organized, but if you open a drawer
5:37or you open the closet, it looks like it's chaos.
5:40Chaos?
5:42That's so I was.
5:43I was diagnosed with ADHD. I don't know when this was.
5:46Maybe it was definitely during the pandemic.
5:50Graduations.
5:52Welcome back.
5:54But what happened is one of my best friends,
5:56he was he was going through the most is the best way to put it.
5:59He he thought he had depression and then he thought he had something else.
6:03And then someone who was bipolar, he went through his whole journey
6:06and then came out on the other side of it, a almost completely different person.
6:10And then he told me, he said, hey man,
6:11I was diagnosed with ADHD and this is what it means.
6:14And I was like, okay, I mean, I took it seriously,
6:17but also we're friends, so I didn't take it seriously.
6:19And then he said, this changed my life.
6:21And and I felt so emotional and the world has never looked like it.
6:26And I feel like I've wasted so many chances in life now.
6:29And I was like, damn, this is getting deep.
6:31You know, you just forget things. Calm down, calm down.
6:33When he said no, now I take medication
6:36and then he explained some of the symptoms to me.
6:38Okay? And I was like, that sounds like me.
6:41But we're so different personality wise that I could not believe that
6:45we had the same thing, because in my head, he was describing a personality.
6:49And is not a personality disorder.
6:52Personal disorders, mood disorders, disorders of regulation.
6:58They are not the same thing.
6:59And I also kind of want to move away from the the term disorder.
7:02Yeah, right.
7:03Your brain is wired to function differently and in different settings.
7:08In some settings, the way that your brain functions
7:10is optimal in other settings is suboptimal.
7:13And so rather than saying like, oh, we're disordered
7:16because we can't focus, well, when it comes time to solve a problem
7:20and we're down to the wire, we don't have a lot of time.
7:23Your brain is willing to think creatively.
7:25Yes a problem. Yeah.
7:27But it can be depressing for you if you are in a setting
7:31where everybody seems to be able to go with the flow
7:35and go with the brain, and you're like, I am dying, I am miserable.
7:39Yeah, go on along with this.
7:41This is driving me crazy and nobody gets why you're so bother.
7:46And that's what I find, happens when you
7:50finally get validated or you get a diagnosis.
7:53You know, they're like, okay, I knew I wasn't crazy.
7:57This is actually more for me.
7:58This is not the way my brain is reinforced.
8:01This is not what I'm meant to do in life.
8:03And, the reason I say congratulations to you
8:06is because I think once people know what's going on with their brains,
8:10then they can, like, not just look at it from like a negative point of view,
8:13but almost like embrace it like, okay, so this explains it.
8:18And now that I know this, I've got to figure out how I work.
8:22I'm curious because you specialize in children.
8:25And the thing about early childhood
8:27is that it's very difficult to articulate your own experience. Yes.
8:31And what's going on in your brain? Yes.
8:33A lot of the things you describe, you're like,
8:34oh, that sounds just like a toddler, right?
8:36Well, that sounds like a bright five six year old. Right?
8:38So how for parents with young children that are displaying
8:41some of this behaviors, how can they know the difference between that being like,
8:44okay, this brain is wired differently and this is just emerging childhood okay.
8:49So a couple of different places.
8:51ADHD used to be diagnosed.
8:53You had to have the symptoms before age six.
8:55Now we say you have to have them before age 12.
8:58There are oh why. Do they make it.
8:59Because the researchers said I don't really know.
9:03But they're.
9:04Just sad what the new additions of like the manual that we use to diagnose
9:08a diagnostic and statistical manual for mental disorders.
9:10That's DSM.
9:11DSM, right, that it was based on the research
9:14that people were presenting with symptoms as late as age 12.
9:18And so they wanted to make sure that they could be I guess, more inclusive.
9:20Okay.
9:21So before what was happening is they said if you don't show it by six,
9:23you don't have it, you're good, you're good.
9:25But guess what happens at age six?
9:27Some kids are just entering formal.
9:29School and now you get. Exposed and then you see it.
9:31Now you see, now you get exposed.
9:33You don't send your kids to preschool.
9:35Oh yeah.
9:35And then you wait until they turn six for kindergarten.
9:38And then at kindergarten, it's like this kid can not stay in.
9:40I see this kid is I've walked into classrooms where I'm coaching
9:44and, looking for my client, and they're under the table.
9:47And the teacher was like. Okay,
9:49that's classic, right?
9:51And like, where is this kid? Oh, under the table.
9:53Okay, time to go with me. Right? Yeah.
9:56And so your original question was, how do parents know
10:00if it's like typical behavior or behavior that is different for us as a parent?
10:06You have to know what your temperament is.
10:08Is there a mismatch between your temperament and your child's temperament?
10:11That doesn't necessarily mean that there's a problem with your child.
10:14That's number one.
10:15I think what you want to look at is how that kid interacts with other kids,
10:19and what it takes to get that kid through a day, because typically,
10:23if you have a kid who's really hyperactive is going to take a ton of energy
10:26and organization and routine and planning and accommodating
10:31to get this kid through the day, whereas you may have other kids where you can say,
10:36put your shoes on, come back five minutes later, the shoes on with this kid.
10:40If you say,
10:40put your shoes on and you come back, they're going to be off to the next thing.
10:44But we want to look at this.
10:46I want. To show they stole my shoes. And
10:49all these things.
10:50Okay.
10:51My, my, my record with my mom, the story that she keeps bringing up
10:56is one day I came home from school.
10:59I had no backpack and I had no shoes.
11:04Come on.
11:06And then my mom said to me, and my cousin always
11:08tells a story as well, because that day I got one of the all time beating.
11:12And he says he remembers, like watching me going, but this could have been avoided.
11:16He was also a child, but he was like.
11:18This is he watched me and he thought to himself, but he could have avoided this.
11:22But what had happened was I came home and apparently my mom was like,
11:25where's all your stuff?
11:26And I said to her, I said, the bag got heavy, put it down.
11:31So I put it down. I literally left it on the side of the. Road up
11:35to. Me.
11:35Logically. Yeah. And then she said, and what happened to the shoes?
11:38And I said, the shoes were new and I didn't want to finish them.
11:41So I left them somewhere close to school so that I don't have to wear them
11:45out on the way home
11:47because, you know, like your shoes would get worn out on the sides, right?
11:50Like we couldn't afford new shoes the same way other kids would.
11:53So I noticed kids always had like a flat heel on their shoe.
11:56Look at how observant you are. That.
11:57Yeah, exactly.
11:58And then my shoes had the slant.
12:00Yeah, that looked terrible.
12:02So I was like, okay, if I can preserve my shoes,
12:05then I won't get laughed at as much.
12:07So I'll leave the shoes near school and then walk home barefoot.
12:11And we went back and everything was where it was.
12:13Which means my plan worked. Technically.
12:15Technically, yeah.
12:15But she she couldn't understand my brain.
12:18I remember thinking.
12:19This made sense to me.
12:21To me, it makes complete sense.
12:23Yes. Now, I don't have the kids, but I also have ADHD, right?
12:27So I find myself very comfortable with the. Child until daughter.
12:30Who has ADHD. I have a question. Yeah,
12:33so I have a bunch of friends,
12:35who are now the high performing girls in school super price men, nearly 40
12:40and they're like recently diagnosed and it came up in postpartum.
12:43Yeah. Everything for fell apart.
12:46And a lot of things that their therapists and the people that work with that
12:49we we miss it in girls. We miss it.
12:52Yes. I don't want to go into the gender binary, okay.
12:55But you know, the girls I see
12:57even in my son's preschool and my they behave very differently,
13:00even when they're energetic, they're energetic in a different way.
13:04How they mean. Yeah.
13:04How do parents of girls who may not have the same presentation
13:09make sure that these girls don't
13:10go under the radar for a long time and maybe never get diagnosed?
13:15What are you seeing in girls as children?
13:17So that story that I told you about the kid under the desk was a girl.
13:21And that four girls, unless their behaviors are so hyperactive
13:26that it is, like, really problematic girls tend to fly under the radar.
13:29I think because of confirmation bias,
13:31we expect that boys are going to be more likely to struggle
13:35with attention and focus or will say like, oh, it's part of being a boy.
13:38But then if it goes too far, it's like, okay,
13:40well then we probably need to look at this boy.
13:42I think a lot of girls present as inattentive initially
13:45and people miss in attention.
13:48Or the girls that get caught
13:50are the girls who are super talkative, super busy, super on the go.
13:56And, and so for girls you can meet those six out of nine criteria
14:00for hyperactivity.
14:01But if it's not at a level comparatively to like a boy who's hyperactive
14:05or another girl who's super hyperactive, you could get miss.
14:08It's like based on like our cultural expectations
14:11for girls, behavior for boys, behaviors which make it tough.
14:15Yeah.
14:15But there are girls are girls who are struggling. Absolutely.
14:18So what would you look for?
14:20I guess I think you would look for how the girl is doing in friendships.
14:24In friendships. Are they making friends?
14:27Are they sustaining friendships?
14:29Whoa, wait wait wait wait wait.
14:31Let's let's break this down. Yes.
14:33Why is that?
14:33One of the signifiers of potentially having ADHD?
14:37Because children with ADHD
14:40are most likely to struggle in social relationships.
14:44They're going to be the last to be picked to be on teams.
14:46And we've got research for this.
14:47Wow. What happens is they stay
14:51little and people developmentally move on.
14:54So it's a lot of fun to have a hyperactive friend when you're 3 or 4.
14:58When you're at 910, not so much, Okay.
15:02If we're 3 or 4 and you're breaking the rules and you're running, it's like,
15:06how have fun.
15:06This is so much. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm going to play.
15:09But by the time we get to playing like the video games or we get to like,
15:12there's a sport and you got to be really agile physically, that's another thing
15:16that kind of tends to co-occur for people with ADHD is physically.
15:20When it comes to sports and activities, they don't necessarily
15:23excel in some of those because coordination.
15:26Yeah. Right.
15:27So you may be more likely to be clumsy.
15:29And so you need a lot of input. Yeah.
15:31Like if you're playing baseball you got to stop. You got to watch.
15:34That can be really boring for kids.
15:36Soccer for a kid with ADHD.
15:37You out there and, and you out there?
15:40Yeah. There's there's moments where they're just watching. Nothing kick.
15:42They picking the flowers out of the dandelions. Hey.
15:46I got a basketball team.
15:48We got to get you to be able to look and and follow cues.
15:51And so your social functioning is major when you have ADHD.
15:55And so if you have a girl or boy and you're worried
15:59about them and wandering, look at their social functioning.
16:01How are they doing with friends and our sports and activities then academically,
16:06talk to the teacher about
16:08what's happening in the classroom.
16:12Is the kid able
16:14to sit in a chair or do they stand the whole day?
16:19When you put the kid under timed pressure,
16:23or do they do poorer or better finishing an assignment?
16:28Is this kid likely to stay on task, like to do the assignment until it's done?
16:33Or do you have to give constant reminders?
16:35Think about at home.
16:38How long does it take to wait to get up?
16:40How long does it take for the kid to get dressed?
16:43Does the kid lose things?
16:45Can they follow a routine without a constant reminder?
16:49And it takes a lot of,
16:51like, external stuff to be able to get them to that point where they can.
16:55So it's possible, but you're going to have reminders everywhere.
16:58So like for me,
17:01last two days I've been in New York,
17:03I've decided not to really set my alarm,
17:06which is not a good idea. But.
17:10I like winged it and I made it, but I made it down to the wire.
17:13That's another thing. Wait till the last minute.
17:16Oh yeah, that's classic ADHD.
17:18Yeah, that's completely.
17:19I can do this at eight minutes.
17:21Yeah, yeah. Time blindness.
17:22Time blindness. Completely time.
17:24You know, you know, what I'd love to do is break down
17:25each part to help us understand the whys behind. Okay?
17:28Because I think a lot of people will,
17:30you know, a lot of people recognize this stuff, right?
17:31Yeah. They'll go like, oh, yeah, that's me.
17:33I can't wake up or I'm late or I'm,
17:36help us understand the why.
17:37So why is it hard to wake up if you have ADHD.
17:42And you likely don't have great sleep hygiene?
17:44You know, you should go to bed at 8:00, but you really want to watch that show.
17:48And fixated go down. That rabbit hole.
17:51Why do you not go to bed then?
17:53Because your brain is like, but I could just watch this one episode
17:56and it won't be that bad.
17:57And then you get hooked on episode one you like, but now I want to watch another.
18:00Or you're like, I want to read this book, and my brain isn't tired yet,
18:04so I'm going to read a few chapters of this book.
18:06Like, I need my brain to be exhausted, to fall asleep and stay asleep.
18:10Okay, but then why is your brain wanting?
18:12Because your brain is reinforced by dopamine.
18:17Okay, what is happening with ADHD is your brain functions differently.
18:21Okay.
18:21And so the dopamine
18:22or the reward centers of the brain need a lot of input for reinforcement.
18:28Okay.
18:28And what's happening with a with a regular brain.
18:30With a regular brain.
18:31I like to call an office brain. And office.
18:33Yeah I didn't put it that just quarter I.
18:36Call it office.
18:37I call. It a non office. Brain.
18:38And my brain is like.
18:40What office brain people do.
18:42Office brain people are reinforced by being in the office
18:45and getting their work done.
18:46Okay. When an office brain person wakes up.
18:49Task. Oriented, they wake up easily because.
18:52Now they're happy to wake up.
18:53They're probably more organized or have better sleep patterns.
18:55Yeah, they're. Routine and structured.
18:57So they go to bed. They have a routine. Yeah.
19:00They sleep while they're in.
19:01Bed and their brains giving them dopamine for doing that.
19:04Yeah, I don't know. That is giving them dopamine.
19:06But their brains and bodies are reinforced by having that eight hours of sleep.
19:10They know they need it to function.
19:12It really helps them to get through the day.
19:14It makes them feel comfortable and secure, and so they prioritize it.
19:17For a person with ADHD, sleep isn't necessarily a priority.
19:22Getting stuff done and having fun is a priority,
19:25like doing as much as you can in a day as a priority.
19:28Like being able to multitask even though you might not be good at it.
19:31That's the priority.
19:32That's what's reinforcing.
19:33Like, usually I have to get up at 610 to wake my son up, but hey,
19:36got somebody waking him up because I'm not there yet.
19:40So you switch. Your I.
19:41Switch my alarm back 30 minutes.
19:43And before I left Atlanta one day, I decided, like,
19:47I'll just take them to school.
19:48Forget it. On the school bus. Right. That's me.
19:50Decided I'm not going to engage in routine because I just decided I didn't want to.
19:54But I am training my child to respond to an alarm.
19:58And so I was still on the bed and got a knock on my door.
20:02And my child is like, it's 630.
20:04And I was like, oh, I was going to take you to school today.
20:07He's like undressed.
20:08I was like, okay. You know, the buzzer. Yeah.
20:12So, yeah. So.
20:13So okay, so it sounds actually you you have ADHD.
20:16Absolutely. But I was like, good. Look at me.
20:18I'm making excuses.
20:19So the school.
20:20I don't think my teachers would have complained about me.
20:22I just talked.
20:24I just talked, and I had to do. Did you?
20:26But did you know when you got into clinical psychology.
20:28Did you did you know by that time would you know afterwards?
20:30I'm black.
20:31And when I got into my clinical psychology program, I had never been to therapy.
20:36All of my white colleagues, most of them have been to therapy before.
20:39They had seen psychologists.
20:40So I decided to do this.
20:42On saying I would never wanted therapy or nobody in my family went to therapy.
20:46It's like when. You just pray, you pray. I mean, that's what we did.
20:49And you say, is nothing wrong with anger, right?
20:51No. Wrong. Again.
20:52We just going to pray on.
20:53A pray that like get out of here, you know, had no problems.
20:56We got problems like.
20:57You know, like it's like that's how it goes.
20:59So like when I went to grad school,
21:02I used to take copious notes so that I could focus.
21:06And then I would doodle and then in undergrad
21:09I remember getting called out by a professor
21:11because they knew I was doing one, which is pretty embarrassing
21:14at the collegiate level to get called out for dude.
21:16And I like, I'm in college like this is my fifth great.
21:18But I got called out, but I've always just figured out how to make it work.
21:25Because that's
21:25like there's like different cultural expectations, right?
21:29And my grades were high.
21:30Yeah. I got everything done.
21:33But I just know that there's a there's a book
21:37that talks about ADHD and functioning and they talk about like brain glitches.
21:41And, one of the glitches is go ahead and forget it.
21:45Like go ahead, you're gonna have enough time later.
21:47Go ahead and do what you want. You're going to be able to calm down.
21:49Oh yes, I call that now and not now.
21:52Title that. Is. What is that?
21:54So for an ADHD brain there are only two modes.
21:57There is now and there is not now.
22:01Okay okay.
22:02So when I meet other people, I'm always really impressed and fascinated
22:06by how they are able to see time
22:10laid out in, in a more gradual fashion.
22:13So somebody says to me, let's say it's now like 5 p.m.
22:16and they go, dinner's at eight.
22:18In my head, what I've heard is dinner is not now, okay.
22:21Then at like 630 they'll start like dressing.
22:25They'll go, all right, I'm going to go get dressed.
22:27And I'll say to my friend, I'll be like, you're getting dressed. Why?
22:29I go so we can go to dinner. Then I go, wait, what's the time?
22:32They go at 630 and they're like, Caesar, Caesar!
22:34I have Caesar on the podcast all the time.
22:35He's like, the antithesis of it is he is the, like, the furthest thing possible.
22:40So he'll start getting dressed at like 6 p.m.
22:42or 630 with dinners at eight. Yes.
22:45And then I go, but dinner's at eight.
22:47And he's like, yeah, so I'm going to get dressed.
22:48Now I go, but that's not now. Like dinner is not now.
22:51Could do so many other things now.
22:52My brain is going I mean I could watch a movie,
22:55I could watch a few episodes of a TV show, I could read something.
22:58This is this makes no sense, because how long does dressing take?
23:01Dressing takes approximately six minutes.
23:04That's like six minutes to get your whole outfit together.
23:06That's what I'm going to. -30. You never know.
23:09It's like six minutes.
23:10You put your things on and.
23:12Then I'm like. And then what? To get out of the door.
23:13That doesn't even take time.
23:14That's like six 70s at best.
23:17And then when you're in the car, what does Google say?
23:19Oh 11 minutes. Okay. So it's going to take 11 minutes to get to the place.
23:21So if we combine all of this time, well 27 minutes is what I need.
23:26And I'll and I'll be this is what my brain says.
23:28Sit on the couch location location location location, location.
23:31And then at some point I even get anxious or I get
23:35I get annoyed that the time is not happening.
23:38So I'll look down and go, what's the time now?
23:40715 now I have to wait 15 minutes
23:43before I can start doing stuff, and I'll sit with that.
23:47I'll sit with that and look at it and look at it and look at it.
23:49And then finally at 730, I'll wait for that three minutes
23:53because I know I need 27 minutes.
23:55I wait for the three minutes, I'll be like, all right, time to go.
23:58And then like, my phone will ring.
24:01And then that now has thrown off everything
24:02because someone phoned me for like four minutes.
24:04Now you have just killed my 27 minute plan.
24:07And then now I'm not running.
24:08But then you're. Going to be late.
24:09Because it's not now.
24:10That's the thing.
24:11And like, I think that's why I say like with kids,
24:15part of it is because I don't take things that seriously.
24:17But when I talk to people's kids who have this, I articulated
24:21to their parents with them because I go, no, I know you're making it serious.
24:25And a lot of parents of ADHD children feel like their kids really undermine them.
24:31Yes, yes.
24:31That's like the biggest thing. Defiance. It feels like defying.
24:34But it also feels like prank defiance. Because think about it.
24:38You send a child into another room.
24:40Just just think of it from a parent's perspective.
24:43Please go into your room. Yes.
24:45And put on your jacket and put on your shoes.
24:47We're leaving. We're leaving in ten minutes.
24:50The kid goes into the room.
24:5215 minutes later, you're like, where's the kid?
24:54You go to the room.
24:56They have a. Plan.
24:58They do not have. A jacket on.
24:59They don't have the shoes on.
25:01They have books on the bed that if they've opened up,
25:04they've started reading something, they've started building Lego.
25:06They've stopped and you're going, what are you doing?
25:09And the child looks at you and goes, what
25:12are you like your jacket in there?
25:13Well, he's like, what are you I just need.
25:16And I see how many parents because it feels like you're being under my.
25:19It feels like somebody please go and grab something for me.
25:21They never come back. Yeah.
25:23You know, and so I like.
25:25I love that you're saying that thing of, like, the brain, the brain glitching.
25:28Because I think people take that for granted.
25:31And I also understand a lot of people are just like, this is this is bullshit.
25:35Come on. There's no way your brain works like that.
25:38Is absolutely not bullshit.
25:40If you've got a kid with ADHD or you have ADHD,
25:43you've got to do one thing at a time.
25:44You get one command in the room where you want it to occur.
25:47You wait for the person to start,
25:49so then you can reinforce the fact that they're started.
25:50Thank you for listening, cause I'm trying to get them to listen to you.
25:53Oh, I love this. Wait, so let's let's play the scenario out. Yes.
25:56You want the best result for your kid and from your kid. Yes.
25:59Or from. Your partner. Right. Who might have ADHD?
26:01Okay. Oh, I like we'll get to that. Yes. We're going to get.
26:03We got to.
26:04Get to that. Let's so we start with the kids.
26:06So you in the room. Yes. So you want something to happen.
26:09You want your kid to make their bed?
26:11Absolutely. Okay.
26:12You don't tell them to make their bed from the living room.
26:15You're saying you go with them, you.
26:17Go with them. And so nobody has time for that.
26:19That's our issue, right? We don't have time to go.
26:21I need you to go to your bedroom.
26:22Make your bed.
26:22Actually, you go to the setting where you want the behavior to occur.
26:25Okay?
26:26In order to increase the chances that the behavioral will occur.
26:28So ABC antecedent behavior consequence antecedent.
26:31We're going to go to the kid's room.
26:33We're going to say if you don't get some information you give it. Now
26:37I need you to make your bed the wrong mess.
26:39You don't have to throw in the rules mess.
26:40But I need you to make.
26:41Your bathroom and rooms a mess at the wrong. Time.
26:43I need to make your bed. Yes, please make your bed.
26:46And you can say please, because it models a social scale.
26:49Being polite when you make a command
26:50and it's not a question is now like, are we ready to clean up the room?
26:54It's like a question now. It's a command.
26:56So this is not gentle parenting where it's like, oh, I'm being nice to the kid
26:59for the sake of being nice.
27:00Okay. Got it.
27:01There's a difference. So please make the bed.
27:04You wait, you say nothing.
27:06The K starts to make the bed.
27:07Great job listener.
27:08I'll be back in two minutes.
27:09You think you can get this done in two minutes?
27:11Like, make it a little game?
27:12He's like, yeah, I got this in two minutes.
27:14You go, I. Like them, make. Them make it a game.
27:17Gamifying tasks that are non desirable.
27:21Yeah.
27:21For now reinforcement is a big thing for people with ADHD.
27:25You set that timer you see if you can beat it.
27:27So back to the kid. We want something done.
27:29We have to do the command in the setting where we want it done.
27:33If you do it from afar with multiple parts, they're going to lose it.
27:38They're just going to lose the task
27:39because their brain is not wired to keep up with multiple task at a time.
27:44I'm really curious because you said I'm black.
27:47Yes. Sorry. Said I'm. Not.
27:48I'm not sorry. I'm black.
27:51Yes. Your focus is children. Yes.
27:53And we know that black children,
27:55minority children in this country tend to be really under. Yes.
27:59And as a result that often expelled.
28:02It's like that's a bad kid.
28:04And we know about the school to prison pipeline.
28:06And there's some that I can't remember the statistic
28:08about how many people in the prison system actually have ADHD.
28:11Right. It's I think it's, 60 to 70%.
28:13It's like a huge.
28:15Huge swath of, like, black men in this country who were once
28:18black boys with ADHD who were never diagnosed.
28:20And because of, you know, historical and social factors so bad you're a bad kid.
28:25Systemic racism, systemic racism. Yeah.
28:28So we're in this kind of very negative loop that becomes multi-generational
28:31because I think culturally, sometimes we don't have the words someone's anxious.
28:35They may say my nerves is bad.
28:36They're not going to say that like I have anxiety.
28:38Yeah. So there's no none of the cultural language.
28:40So I'm wondering like, what can we do for those children around us
28:45where they actually have internalized the idea that they are bad?
28:49Well, the school is saying that
28:51there are bad kid and they're on that expulsion track.
28:53How do we get them out of that?
28:55Because it seems that once you're on that track, it's hard.
28:58It's hard to get off.
28:59I think the first thing and this is like what I learned as a behavioral
29:02psychologist is we don't discuss like, children as traits, characteristics.
29:07We talk about the behavior. Right.
29:09So we're externalizing a behavior from a kid.
29:11So it's not that you're bad
29:13because you won't sit down and listen is because it's hard for you to sit still.
29:17You have difficulty sitting still for long periods of time.
29:19That doesn't mean there's something wrong with you.
29:21It's just better for you to be able to move around.
29:24So getting parents to see behaviors as behaviors
29:26and not as children's personality or what they're going to grow up.
29:30Yeah.
29:31The other thing that we've got to be really aware of is like,
29:35messages.
29:35They get passed down through generations
29:37and through families that can be really kind of negative.
29:41And trying to, like, compare kids to people around them
29:45who we think that they are like.
29:47And we have all this anxiety and this angst
29:49and this worry about whether or not our boys are going to be okay or what
29:53the future is going to hold.
29:54And so we want them to, like, conform to all of these, like,
29:58behaviors that are going to ensure that they're successful.
30:01And now we're learning that there's no perfect recipe.
30:04I mean. Look at him. Come on.
30:06There is no recipe for this.
30:08But for black people, it's like, well, if there's no recipe, if you can't just be
30:12good and go to college and get a good job, what do we do now?
30:16And we're learning that that's not necessarily the recipe.
30:19Yeah. You know, but that's the recipe.
30:21This kind of being push, which is why I think a lot.
30:24And if systems around you I hate to go here, but whatever.
30:28If systems around you are built so that you don't succeed,
30:34then you got to wonder if people are going to be more likely
30:38to blow you off and dismiss you for any difference,
30:43rather than looking at it as like a positive or saying,
30:46this is my kid who likes to talk in the classroom, so I'm going to have him
30:51stand up and explain to the class what I just said in his terminology.
30:56And if this is my kid who likes to be on the table,
31:00then I'm going to say, if you all get through this assignment,
31:02I'm going to let
31:03you come up with a beat on the table and the rest of you all dance.
31:06If this is my kid who likes to challenge
31:09and question, then let's have a debate right about this subject.
31:12But you got to care.
31:14And you got to believe that this type of behavior is functional.
31:17Right.
31:18You've got to believe that there's functionality to being busy.
31:21There's functionality to thinking outside of the box.
31:23There's functionality to like
31:26thinking.
31:27And many systems are set up for that.
31:30We're going to continue this conversation right after this
31:33short break.
31:40And I'll often say to my friend, I say it a half joking, but I do believe it.
31:44I go ADHD isn't necessarily a problem.
31:47ADHD is just like the enemy of capitalism.
31:49I truly believe this.
31:51And what I mean by that is if you think of what how ADHD presents
31:56most of the things that ADHD presents,
32:00they're like sort of bad for a factory worker.
32:03Absolutely.
32:04I joke and I call people office thinkers, but I know some of my friends love
32:08organizing and being quiet and reading
32:11and looking at lists and putting numbers to get good for you.
32:14Good for you.
32:16But you have to admit that the world has just been designed that way.
32:18Absolutely right.
32:19So the world is great for people who wake up early.
32:22The world is great for people who wish to sit in a cubicle.
32:25But what does the world do for you if you do want to talk,
32:28or if you do want to run, or if you want to jump, or if you want to?
32:31Now luckily, there's some outlets, like for instance,
32:33in the same way that prison athletes overindex for ADHD.
32:37Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah a lot. Do they. Train? No, but.
32:40No, no, that's what reinforces that's what reinforces that okay. Yeah.
32:43The hyper focus is their sport.
32:44So I'm intrinsically internally motivated
32:47to do this activity that I love this athletic.
32:51So I can do it for hours. I can train for hours.
32:53I'm around my people who also love it.
32:55I'm so reinforced by that.
32:57I just want to be in this setting in and I can I can perform and I can excel.
33:01It does.
33:01Two things that I've seen firsthand is like, number one, it's
33:05it's routine and it's rhythm, right?
33:07But it's also not boring routine and rhythm. Yeah.
33:10So it's high intensity.
33:11Someone's throwing a ball at your face.
33:13This is not like like if you read a textbook
33:15and you miss a line, you're not walking out with a black eye.
33:17Do you know what I'm saying?
33:18Trevor, normally I agree with you when you say stuff about, like,
33:22capitalism and office workers.
33:23Yes, but an ADHD brain. I'm with you on that.
33:26But I think that ADHD brain can make you a bad partner.
33:30Like in a relationship. Definitely.
33:32You know, I mean, like,
33:33but imagine you didn't even have a job and you have all the money in the world.
33:37Oh, that's.
33:37Why you get. What your wife is saying to you.
33:40I need you to pick up the dry cleaning.
33:42But you know what's interesting about the at least,
33:44you know, before we move on to to talk is,
33:48a lot of athletes don't know that they have ADHD.
33:50That's what I've realized as well, because
33:53especially in America, like, sports started at such a young age.
33:56Yeah, yeah.
33:57So they just know that they excel.
33:59Yeah. Right.
34:01A lot of them don't even realize that it's their ADHD brain that makes them excel.
34:04So they're able to think of multiple plays at the same time.
34:07On the court.
34:08They're noticing it's.
34:09A level of. Genius. It is a level of genius, sure.
34:12But they never get diagnosed and they never present it.
34:15But maybe in their personal lives that I know.
34:17That's why I mentioned the partner thing.
34:19Tom Brady I'm not saying he has ADHD, but.
34:21Like this is a good.
34:23His life kind of fell apart when he retired, right?
34:26Yeah. And then he has to go back to the thing and then you know. Yeah. No.
34:29Look you never know. You never know with anyone.
34:31But that's what I mean.
34:31It's like because but I think also even in those situations
34:36like you,
34:36you listen to some of the, the top performing athletes,
34:40the ones who have, I would say, like the most rigid
34:43routines are generally the ones who do the best,
34:44because even in their personal lives, their meals are the time with the family.
34:48They they have this.
34:49So the family has to also fit into the schedule
34:51because the schedule is so intense.
34:53So then that to me goes to the conversation about partners, right?
34:56So the athlete is hyper focused in doing what they have to do
34:59to maximize what their bodies can do to maximize their amount of time.
35:02But then that is one part of your life.
35:06Yeah.
35:06And you miss
35:07out on the other parts of your life that are kind of orbiting around you.
35:11And that's not your life. Is your livelihood.
35:13But for many of them, it's their life. Yeah. It is their.
35:15Life is where they've been there
35:16it's been their life is finally where they feel secure and productive.
35:19And they may not have. And it is a way out.
35:23Poverty is a way out is a way to help family.
35:26You serve so many functions.
35:27But when it comes time to being a partner of a person,
35:31you've got to be able to be empathic and to understand
35:36what it is you need and what it is your partner needs.
35:40And so can you give me an example about what
35:44might make it hard to be in partnership with somebody with ADHD?
35:48I don't want to look at it strictly through a heterosexual lens, but I think
35:52domestic labor is something most couples, wherever you are, struggle with. Yes.
35:56Who does the washing up? Yeah. Who gets the laundry?
35:59Who's kicking today?
36:00Who's cleaning? Like the house needs to be in a certain way.
36:03And when you have children, that's even compounded, right?
36:06For the most part, women take on a lot of domestic labor.
36:09We talk about the mental load all the time. It's women doing that.
36:12And I speak to a lot of friends whose husbands have ADHD.
36:16And, like we're really dealing with the gender differences that come up.
36:20But I'm doing a lot of the domestic labor.
36:22But this man is also forgetful and but he's not being an asshole, do you know?
36:28I mean, because sometimes there's
36:29this idea that, like, you know, the lazy man is like, he's struggling.
36:32He he generally forgot to take out the trash, even though I can smell it.
36:36Right? Right. Stinky forgot to take out the trash.
36:38He didn't make the bed. He didn't pick up the dry cleaning.
36:41I organized the cleaner.
36:42You forgot to get the cash to pay the cleaner.
36:44Do you know what I mean?
36:45And like that can cause a lot of tension in relationships.
36:48And then you think that that person dislikes you?
36:51Because I think when you're in love with somebody,
36:53it's like, if you love me, you do this thing for me.
36:56But they're incapable of.
36:57But love is not transactional.
36:59Well, for some people it is. Okay.
37:00So that's one thing. So we have love is transactional.
37:03Then you need to know what the currency is.
37:06Yeah. My currency your currency is going to be different.
37:08Your currency is going to be organization. Yeah.
37:11You are going to be able to like make sure the kids have the schedule.
37:15Make sure that the cleaner is scheduled.
37:16Make sure that we know what day the trash goes out.
37:19We know how much money is in the bank account.
37:21The other person's currency may be like on stuff,
37:25and it can be hard when you are the person, the
37:28the currency of responsibility and the other person
37:30who seems like to do the yes to do the fun stuff,
37:31but is like making sure that you all are having family outings.
37:34The person who has relationships with everybody in the neighborhood,
37:38that might be the person who's able to make sure that they check in
37:41with the family, to make sure that you all are going to have a family vacation.
37:44So it may seem like one person is like day to day, like,
37:48what's happening right here on the ground.
37:51The other person may be bird's eye view.
37:53And I think you got to know what your strengths and weaknesses are in the couple.
37:59So if you are the partner of a person with ADHD
38:02and you know that money management is not their thing,
38:07then we don't want to put all money responsibilities on them.
38:11We want to make sure that they're knowledgeable.
38:13But we may say hey, so we have a system and there's a budget.
38:17Your budget is this we have a credit card that is set to this amount,
38:22and once that amount is over, we're done.
38:24There's going to be some tension there.
38:26But you are helping that person to structure,
38:29but then you're also reinforcing that by saying like, look says we were
38:32able to stay within our budget. We have this much more to take.
38:35That vacation you want and you want it to plan is great, but you can't.
38:37Go either way because there's a lot of wives who have the ADHD.
38:40Yeah, the husband doesn't like it.
38:42We can go either way.
38:42But I think really, you've got to be honest about who you are.
38:45You know, this is something that I know, like, I've struggled with, you know,
38:49after being diagnosed with ADHD, I then went back and I was like, oh, wow.
38:53Half of the issues I had in my relationships were from ADHD,
38:57and then 90% of the issues I had with my mom was just ADHD.
39:01Just me realizing, oh, oh, I was never I was never, quote unquote naughty.
39:05Oh, my brain was just trying to be stimulated.
39:07I wanted to see what would happen if I threw rocks at all
39:09the windows at the houses in the neighborhood.
39:12And I know now, as an adult, it's now the logic has caught up to it.
39:16But I still think it's an exciting endeavor.
39:18Right?
39:19But how do you find the difference between
39:24being incompatible slash
39:26an asshole and oh no, this is the person's ADHD
39:31because I can understand in anyone's defense who's with someone who has ADHD.
39:36To your point, they might just be ignoring your requests and they might not be.
39:41But then there's a person with ADHD
39:43who's going like, damn, I really, really, really didn't want to forget that.
39:47And I really didn't want to be late for dinner.
39:49And I really didn't want to be.
39:50Promising and under-delivering, which I think is another ADHD thing
39:54that could come up in relationship.
39:55Yeah.
39:55Like I, you know, the biggest thing that helped me genuinely, yeah, is now
39:59and I give this advice to anyone who has ADHD
40:03is I go start with no change my whole life.
40:07Start with no.
40:08Yeah.
40:09Let me think about it.
40:10Everything people ask you start with no.
40:13And you'll be shocked at how it like changes.
40:15Because that's what I realize happens to ADHD people.
40:17Our brains are moving so quickly.
40:19Someone says something, we love being stimulated.
40:21And so Christiana goes, hey, can you babysit my kid this week?
40:24Yeah, I'd love to see.
40:26I said immediately. Yes.
40:27And then I leave the conversation.
40:30I pull up my phone
40:31and I go, oh, this weekend I have a oh, I've got, I've got an my world.
40:35I've got a gig that I have to do.
40:36And I forgot about this thing.
40:38But now and then you send me a text going,
40:40thank you so much for agreeing to babysit.
40:42I'm like, oh damn, what do I do now?
40:45Thank you for letting everybody down.
40:46Yeah. Now I'm like, okay, wait, wait, wait, I think I can do this.
40:48So wait, what time is the actual babysitting?
40:50Yeah, okay.
40:51From 4 to 6.
40:52My gig is at 630, so I could make.
40:54It's a 2020 seven minute drive.
40:56I think I can, and now I'm back in the loop.
40:58I'm back in the 27 minutes. Right.
41:00And then what happens is I disappoint you on the day because I get overwhelmed.
41:05Because the day comes, my times aren't lining up.
41:08I can't get to you on time.
41:10And and then what?
41:12What happens
41:13to a lot of people with ADHD, I know is there's the shame that comes with it. Yes.
41:16Because you were because you were trying to do the thing for everybody.
41:21What happens is you fail everybody.
41:23Yeah. And because rightfully so on this, I
41:25they don't know what you were going through.
41:28And so they just go, why didn't you just tell me then why did you agree to do this?
41:32And why did you like it? Why do you want so much on your plate?
41:35Is this part of why people with ADHD have higher levels of depression and suicide?
41:39Let's talk about it. Is absolutely. Is it? Yeah.
41:41That I think so.
41:42Yeah. You internalize it.
41:44And I think already the research we don't technically
41:48I don't think we have a ton of it just yet.
41:50But anecdotally I believe that many people who struggle
41:54with ADHD often have underlying anxiety and depression for decades.
41:58Anxiety and depression tend to kind of co-occur.
42:00It's hard for us to tease them apart, but what happens a lot of times is kids
42:05who once they're medicated, once a person is medicated for ADHD
42:09with the stimulant medication, which actually slows your brain down,
42:12then we start to see all of these anxious thoughts come up.
42:15And it's not that the medication is causing
42:17those thoughts is that we can hear them now.
42:19Oh, the person was so busy or so distracted that all we were focused
42:23on was their behaviors, and we didn't know what was happening in their mind.
42:27Yeah.
42:28So on the partner side, what advice would you give someone like
42:32how does because I think like if I'm just being fair to everyone here,
42:36I would hate for some people to use ADHD or their.
42:41Diagnosis to get out. As an excuse.
42:43Like I use pregnancy not to do stuff.
42:45No, no, you should be able to use pregnancy to get like I.
42:49I can't, I can't breathe when I can.
42:50You switch on me like I'm pregnant. The life cycle. Right.
42:53Very like right now.
42:54Like I do ask excuse about.
42:57Pregnancy should be used as an excuse for.
42:59Everything.
43:00If you were talking to the partner who doesn't have ADHD
43:03and how would you counsel them and say, okay,
43:05this is where I think your your boundaries should be
43:07or this is what I think you should look for,
43:09and then we'll move on to the partner with ADHD. Okay.
43:11So anecdotally what I tend to notice is that we attract opposites.
43:16A person with ADHD is typically going to attract somebody who's more structured
43:20routine, right.
43:21It helps them a person who's.
43:23Monsters could pack bags very well.
43:25Are you expecting them to write?
43:28I do.
43:29They were just like you said it, not me.
43:31They were just like, no, I didn't pack my bag.
43:33I didn't know. If they did. You were.
43:35Happy? No. Can I tell you is the opposite? I think someone.
43:38Sorry to attack, you.
43:38Know, I hate, so I don't feel attacked.
43:40I had someone packing my bag
43:42because then I don't know if the thing I want is in the bag.
43:44You don't know I stuff do not pack my bag for me.
43:47Do you like that? You don't.
43:48That's your. Control.
43:49And that's what I was going to say.
43:51A lot of times, people who are with someone with ADHD
43:56start to get engaged in over controlling behaviors,
44:00because you are so worried
44:01about what happens when the person with ADHD forget something oh,
44:05so overcorrect okay, and then the person with ADHD
44:09becomes resentful because they think you're trying to control.
44:13And really, what you are
44:14trying to do is manage your anxiety about something being forgotten.
44:18Because they forget every time. Because they do forget everything.
44:21You forget they're not forgetting everything. To get at.
44:23You are to be annoying. It's just something that happens.
44:25But what then you may do is list out a schedule, make sure that everything
44:29is just so, and when that person doesn't comply, you lose it.
44:33When they do comply, you're happy.
44:35But what you're teaching them is not to engage in the behaviors on their own.
44:39So if I am scheduling all of your appointments, packing
44:42all of your bags,
44:43when do you have to think and when do you learn to do it yourself?
44:46Okay, so well, you had to watch for if you're the partner of a person
44:50with ADHD and you don't have ADHD, is that you could start to do too much,
44:55and then you start getting into this control dynamic,
44:57and then the person starts to resent you
44:58because they think you're trying to control them.
45:00And then you resent them doing double the. Work. Yes.
45:03Do you know something?
45:03You said that because I feel very ignorant to ADHD,
45:06because I think my brain is probably wired the opposite way.
45:09When you said that piece about the control and you're doing it for them,
45:13you're saying that people with ADHD are capable of doing these things,
45:16and they just you just need a system, okay?
45:18Because I in my mind I'm like, yeah, oh, you just can't do it.
45:21But they are capable.
45:22You're capable,
45:23but that your system may not look like the person who's over control system.
45:28Your system may be okay when it comes to packing a bag for me.
45:32I'm going to set that bag out three days in advance.
45:34But guess what? An hour before it's time for me to go to the airport.
45:37I'm still rifling through that bag.
45:38Yeah, because there's something I forgotten.
45:40Or I decided, like, I had two blazers and then I'm like,
45:43I don't like these Blazers. Throw the Blazers out.
45:45And then I'm like, well, maybe I don't need the Blazers.
45:47Put the blazer back in. So I start to question myself.
45:50My brain is getting busy.
45:51I'm getting distracted. I'm overwhelmed.
45:53So even though I had the goal of being prepared,
45:56I still find myself struggling an hour before I'm supposed to go.
46:01So because it's not now.
46:04Because it's not now.
46:05It's not now.
46:06But when it's now, I'm like, well, yeah, that wasn't as bad.
46:09Exactly. So yesterday I had to go by a blazer.
46:12So it required.
46:12So I got, I got what I love I guess about me.
46:17So I'm going to be real with you all. I'm not going to point fingers.
46:20Yeah. You know. Yeah.
46:21Do you know what I think that means for the person who is not neuro spicy?
46:26And his wife very was wired in a very typical way.
46:29It requires a lot of acceptance because part of me is judging.
46:32I'm like, what's wrong with you? But guess what?
46:34When you want to have fun.
46:36Who do you call exactly? Trevor.
46:38He probably says, and if he doesn't come, you're sad
46:42because you're like, I'm not going to be able
46:43to push myself to have fun the way I have. Yeah, yeah.
46:46It's true, it's true.
46:52Have you
46:53ever thought about all the crazy specific jobs out there?
46:56And I mean, like crazy and I mean specific.
46:58For example, did you know a company is currently
47:01hiring for a psychic in California?
47:05This is a real thing.
47:06Yeah, this job and others like it or what inspired a special part of today's
47:10episode next big Opportunity, brought to you by ZipRecruiter.
47:15Every day, ZipRecruiter helps 10 million candidates with their job search,
47:18which means no matter the role or industry,
47:21they can help your business find qualified candidates fast.
47:24And when they say no matter the role or industry, they really mean it.
47:29You can see for yourself by going to ziprecruiter.com/trevor
47:35Christiana.
47:35I always wondered what jobs do you think you would be good at?
47:37Like, do you think you'd be a good life coach?
47:40Oh no a good no. Wow.
47:42I would be a good life cut.
47:43No, because I would probably tell you that it's not going to go well for you.
47:48And you need someone, like, inspiring.
47:50You know, I think I'm just too cynical and real to be a life coach.
47:53I'm going to go the opposite way.
47:55And I say, I think we need a few more life
47:56coaches who tell people, hey, man, this is not work.
47:58I just can't do this, right?
48:01It's not.
48:01Yeah, yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, this rap thing.
48:03I actually think if we had more life coaches like you,
48:06people would be in better careers and the world would be a better place.
48:09And not everyone would try to go viral on TikTok.
48:12I just feel like.
48:13Medicine, medicine, accounting, engineering.
48:16We need more plumbers, electricians.
48:19I'm just going to tell you to do regular jobs and make some money.
48:22But the rest of the stuff now, not for me.
48:26I can't believe that people are hiring psychics.
48:29Like, yeah, well.
48:30Yeah, if you're going to get your wish, that's word of mouth,
48:33which is not something.
48:34You go against.
48:37What do you what.
48:38Do you even ask in that interview?
48:40I would just sit there and I'd be like, well,
48:41you know what my questions are, aren't they?
48:44Yeah.
48:44That's true. You know the questions.
48:46Maybe I'm a little too closed minded, but if I was working at a company
48:50and they said, hey guys,
48:51I know things have been going bad for the past few quarters,
48:54but the good news is we've hired a psychic.
48:56I'd be like, Okay,
48:59if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go on ZipRecruiter
49:02and see if there are any other companies out there who are hiring for my position.
49:06What?
49:06I do want.
49:07To work somewhere
49:08that is open to the spirit realm, but that's a bit too open, you know?
49:12I mean, I actually do like that I would love to work in a company
49:14that had a psychic on staff, just for the vibes.
49:18Yeah, yeah.
49:20Do you know what I mean? Just like lunchtime vibes.
49:21Just go check in with the psychic, see how things are.
49:23I like that actually, because we've worked in a dog office.
49:27Why not have a psychic friendly office?
49:28Well, whatever role you're looking to fill, ZipRecruiter can help with
49:31smart matching technology and handy tools like the Invite to Apply feature.
49:35You'll find a potential hire in no time.
49:38ZipRecruiter is the hiring site employers prefer most based on G2.
49:42In fact, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter
49:45get a quality candidates within the first day.
49:49See for yourself.
49:50Try it now for free at ziprecruiter.com/trevor
49:54that's ziprecruiter.com/tree the org ZipRecruiter.
49:59The smartest way to hire.
50:03It's also it's also difficult to try and explain
50:06to people how many fights in their relationship
50:10aren't necessarily fights, but they're a manifestation of ADHD.
50:13Meeting up with non ADHD.
50:16So I didn't until I like delved into all of this.
50:19I didn't know that for an ADHD brain for the most part
50:22not all brains, but for most ADHD brains
50:27arguments are fun.
50:28Yes, because this cycle of interaction there's a term for.
50:31Coercive cycle of interaction.
50:34Reinforced by your coercive behaviors.
50:36And this is what we teach in behavioral parent management training.
50:38Another plug for an evidence based intervention for ADHD itself
50:43and behavioral parent management training.
50:45The first step is teaching parents about the coercive cycle of interaction
50:48and how their kids are reinforced to continue arguing
50:51because they eventually get what they want,
50:53and parents are reinforced to be more punitive
50:56because they eventually get what they want.
50:57So when you get when you've done that as a child with your parent,
51:00and then you get into a relationship and you're like,
51:02I can prove that I'm right, I can get you to see
51:04that the way I'm thinking is the way you should be thinking.
51:07And you just continue to engage in this spiral until you win.
51:10And the other person is pissed. Oh, they gave up because they're
51:13desperate.
51:14They're example. So ADHD person can keep.
51:15Can they keep going along and you'll be like, can you just stop?
51:20And they're like, no.
51:21So instead of telling them to stop, you give them the positive opposite behavior.
51:25The two do behavior.
51:27So instead of would you stop talking?
51:29It's can we take a quiet moment?
51:32Can you be quiet? What do I want you to do?
51:34Okay, so instead of, stop arguing,
51:38can we change the subject?
51:40Or sometimes you got to kind of
51:41just turn away and, like, wait for to catch them being good and then turn back.
51:45Like, if you're taking me down that spiral where you're trying to argue with me,
51:48I'm going to, like, turn away, pretend to do something else.
51:50And then the minute you get quiet, even if is by accident.
51:53Thanks, driver, for being quiet.
51:56But I think.
51:56I think sometimes people take for granted.
51:58And I'm saying this from experience is like ADHD people.
52:02We are not. We are not arguing.
52:04And you're not an ADHD person.
52:06You are a person with a neurodivergent brain.
52:08Okay.
52:10First of all, I feel like you did.
52:12There was like, it's like going, you don't homeless you, unhoused you.
52:15That's what you just said.
52:16She said the poetic. But you really did.
52:18You really did you like.
52:19No, Trevor, you are not. A homeless person.
52:22You were a person who does not have a home.
52:24Live in you are now seriously makes a difference.
52:27Okay, okay, fine.
52:28You are Trevor.
52:29Yes. Happens to have a brain that is neurodivergent.
52:32Okay, okay, I'll take that. All right. So sorry I got.
52:35No, no, this is fine.
52:36So I think when people take for granted is this.
52:40And sometimes it's because we don't know to articulate it as people.
52:43Sometimes we don't even we don't even know what's happening.
52:46Some people think of it as an argument, but it's not an argument.
52:50You get what I'm saying.
52:51So the ADHD brain is just having fun.
52:53Yeah.
52:53And it's going, let's discuss the merits of and you just go.
52:57It's just so you can be exact.
52:58And you're spinning and you're spinning and you spinning and you spinning
53:00and you spinning, but you just having fun trying to figure this puzzle out.
53:03Now a non ADHD person goes like, no, but but but.
53:06What do you why you just let it go okay.
53:09They get it.
53:10They're getting. Angry.
53:11And then at the end of it and I've seen this happened like in my group of friends.
53:15All the ADHD friends will like hang out together.
53:18All the friends who have a neurodivergent brain. Yes.
53:24They thank you for.
53:25Using that. Term.
53:26They'll be energized
53:26at the end of a group argument and they'll go like, that was fun.
53:30And then all the friends who don't have a neurodivergent brain hissed,
53:34they are pissed.
53:35They're they're worn out.
53:37They're carrying it. I can't believe you. You said you.
53:40Why did we fight? You know what? I'm tired.
53:42And you and you and the rest of us are going. Wait, what?
53:44This was fantastic.
53:46This was fantastic.
53:47We argued the merits of Mesopotamian laws and.
53:50And from that, we understood why we shouldn't be eating fried chicken
53:53tonight.
53:54Just the understanding of it helps, because to your point,
53:59if you understand that I'm not doing something to you,
54:02yes, then you don't think of it that way.
54:05Like so, you know, some divergences, we'll call them, whatever they may be,
54:10physical or mental, are more apparent than others.
54:13If somebody's blind, we normally can see that they're blind.
54:17If that person bumps into you, most rational human beings will never go.
54:22You're right.
54:23What were you going to bump into?
54:25You'll be like, oh man, that person is blind.
54:28Oh, person's blind, you know what I mean?
54:30If somebody rolls up in a wheelchair and they can't go up the stairs,
54:33no one goes like, get up the stairs.
54:34You go like, oh, let's get the ramp.
54:36Or can we help someone?
54:37Because there's a signifier that tells us that this person is divergent physically,
54:43mentally, there's almost no signifiers for this.
54:46So you meet someone with ADHD, you don't realize
54:50that you started speaking.
54:52Their brain hadn't even started pressing the record button, right?
54:56You started a whole conversation.
54:57You got home, you started talking to your partner.
55:00Oh. Hey, honey, you know, I was just thinking we got to do.
55:02And don't forget the thing. And, you know, I can't believe as well.
55:04And then the person goes, like, what?
55:07What just happened?
55:08And they're like, oh, my God, did you listen to anything I just said.
55:11Oh, it's so annoying.
55:13Yes. And it's not that they're not listening to you.
55:17If there was a way for you to be, you know, if they could signify it,
55:20you'd realize, oh, the record button wasn't on.
55:23You hadn't paused for a moment,
55:24the same way I've seen people pull up their phones,
55:27stand at a concert and record a moment, and then I look at their phone.
55:30I realize they never press the record button,
55:32but then they they blame themselves. They go,
55:36I don't press record.
55:37I'm an idiot. Yes.
55:38And I sometimes say to people,
55:39I know it's a bit of a burden, but think of it that way.
55:42When you have an ADHD partner, ask yourself if you've pressed record.
55:45Like one of my best friends taught me this
55:47and he has ADHD, but he literally will be talking
55:50and he'll notice that my brain is I'm finishing an email.
55:53He'll say like, oh man, I got to tell you, this thing that happened.
55:56So the I was at the office and and then he'll pause and you'll go, like,
56:00I'll wait for you to finish.
56:01Yes. And I go, no, no, I'm here.
56:03He's like, no, no, no, finish the email.
56:05Do you know, the funny thing is I'm hearing you both speak today.
56:08I think there's something about if you're the non ADHD parent or partner,
56:14whatever you are in relation to someone with ADHD,
56:17I think it can really increase your empathy
56:20and your sense of patience if you really sit with the diagnosis.
56:24Yeah, because what you're saying right now, whether somebody has ADHD
56:30or not to say to your partner, let me just finish what you're doing.
56:33We'll talk when like, you can give me your full attention.
56:36Yeah. What changed?
56:37So many times or even dealing with your child?
56:40Because sometimes I, like you, just say things to a kid.
56:42But maybe the kid is like, with their Legos,
56:44with their dolls or whatever they had had. They.
56:46Have you pressed record? Yeah. Have you pressed record?
56:48You haven't pressed. Okay. We'll come back to it.
56:50Yes. It kind of just transform.
56:52Oh, I need you to press record. Right.
56:54That also helps me as well. Yeah.
56:55Someone goes like, hey, no, no. Can you put that down? Yeah.
56:57No, no, I need you. Then I'm like, oh okay.
56:59You even, even even signaling urgency helps an ADHD brain.
57:03Absolutely.
57:04So you say to me like if you as Christian I'll go like, oh friend,
57:07I need your help. Immediately.
57:09My brain goes like, yo, what's happening?
57:10I love that what's happening?
57:12And then I focus.
57:13I won't look at my phone, I won't, but if you just tell a story
57:16and it's like the music of it doesn't signal urgency.
57:19And then the name and then and
57:20and my brain just goes like, oh, she doesn't need me.
57:23And I don't realize my brain's doing this.
57:25I'm thinking of four things at the same time.
57:27Is how you communicate to an ADHD.
57:29It's ADHD. Complete.
57:30Make sure record has been pressed.
57:32Then you can like fight with them
57:33if they're not doing the things you hope them to do.
57:35But I promise you, the difference it makes is insane.
57:38You say, I need you to listen to me right now, or you say,
57:41let me know when you're done.
57:43And all of a sudden it just changes the dynamic that you have with somebody.
57:46And that's the antecedent intervention
57:48that's setting up the environment for success. Yeah.
57:51You say in person record or let me know when you're ready
57:53to press record signals to his brain that I've got to do something.
57:58I've got to behave differently. Yeah.
57:59And then he's able to follow through.
58:01And then you reinforce
58:02and because then you continue to talk to him, once
58:04you know that, he's ready to listen, okay.
58:06Consequences. You all are connected.
58:08So like right.
58:09What you are jazzy right now there was connection there.
58:11You gave feedback about when you are able to really hear her.
58:15And then you were like, thank you for giving me that feedback,
58:17because now I know how to come in when I need to talk to you.
58:20And that's what does happen in partnerships and relationships.
58:23Whether it's parent to child.
58:26Parent to child, spouse to family,
58:28family to family, that's what we don't that's like a process thing.
58:32We don't take time to process things because we're so focused on moving forward
58:36and getting to the next phase. Yeah.
58:37And so to have the opportunity to say, especially to your significant other,
58:42I need you to press record or I need you to say, hey, can you put your phone down?
58:47Because like with kids, we're accustomed to like
58:50snatching a tablet, turn it off screen to get them focus.
58:53As adults, we're just as guilty of being preoccupied
58:56with Instagram, with our screens, with our phones.
58:59And sometimes we need help to get away from those things
59:02so we can actually attend to each other, you know?
59:04And like one of the things I say to little kids that I'm working with,
59:07an intervention is, give me your art. Thank you for looking at me.
59:10Now that I know that you're looking, I think you can listen.
59:12Please pass me that.
59:13And then we continue to maintain eye contact.
59:16That really helps them to know that I'm engaged and so on a relationship,
59:20if you have ADHD or you don't have ADHD, I think that's a skill
59:24that we could all learn because many of us think we have ADHD
59:27because we are so wired to screens right now.
59:30We're so reinforced with screens with so reinforced by multitasking.
59:33We, are hearing a lot of noise, and we don't take a lot of time
59:37to be fully present and aware in this moment.
59:39I had to I have a question, yeah, about setting up for success that I,
59:45I've seen a lot of parents grapple with, and it's the question of medication. Yes.
59:48Now I'm a millennial and I and I think we're like the Ritalin generation as well.
59:54And there's a lot of millennials who felt that they were overmedicated,
59:58that they looked back at their childhood and they're like, I felt like a zombie.
1:00:01They're trying to figure out who they are
1:00:02without the presence of some sort of medication.
1:00:05And I think a consequence of that is that a lot of millennial people
1:00:08who are becoming parents now, who are medicated as kids, are maybe reluctant
1:00:12to medicate their children, do not know when they should introduce that modality.
1:00:16What are the effects of it?
1:00:18Can you even, you know, I struggle giving my kids Tylenol.
1:00:21I'm like, is. This a gateway to my dad now?
1:00:23Anyway, okay, so let me talk to you about that gateway drug thing.
1:00:26In my opinion, that is a cultural belief that comes out of the crack
1:00:29pandemic, right?
1:00:30We know that there were specific plans and things that were done to make sure
1:00:36that a certain group of people were destroyed by a drug.
1:00:41And over time, we have become very wary and suspicious.
1:00:45And it is healthy cultural paranoia about the use of medications and drugs.
1:00:50Yeah.
1:00:50How can we get hooked? How could this ruin life for us?
1:00:53Because we had a whole generation that this impacted?
1:00:56What I want you to know when it comes to stimulant medication,
1:01:01any of the psychotropic medications is consider the ways
1:01:05that you are self-medicating.
1:01:07Are you using gummies?
1:01:09And we just to get out of the bed half the time.
1:01:12How much alcohol are you drinking?
1:01:14How much are you indulging and overeating?
1:01:16Is this a symptom of some difficulty that you are having in your life?
1:01:20The medication you take for depression is not the same class of medication
1:01:24that we take to address ADHD.
1:01:25And so what you need to know is for stimulants.
1:01:29Stimulus can be abused and they're the same class like they're amphetamines.
1:01:33Those things amphetamines are similar to what's called cocaine right.
1:01:38It's an amphetamine as well.
1:01:39The difference is it's highly regulated.
1:01:41It's been studied.
1:01:42It's been studied in children.
1:01:43And we can pretty much tell that there have been there's at least 30 years
1:01:47worth of data about people being successfully treated.
1:01:50One thing about stimulant medication is once it's in your system, eight hours
1:01:54typically is out of your system.
1:01:55Unlike other classes of medication that take weeks to build up in your system.
1:01:59That's like anti-depressants. Takes about two. Weeks.
1:02:01You can't you can't go off of them right instantly.
1:02:04So I'll tell you one of the craziest, craziest things I learned
1:02:08actually made me really, really sad because then
1:02:10I had to go back and think about how it affected my relationships.
1:02:16I have had this
1:02:18crippling feeling whenever I travel
1:02:22day one of any trip,
1:02:25I'll fly somewhere,
1:02:27I land a vacation
1:02:29and immediately I go, I need to go home.
1:02:32Or anxiety. Immediately.
1:02:34And my brain is like, I need to go home. I need to go home.
1:02:36What am I? What am I doing here? I need to go home and go home.
1:02:37I need to go home. I need to go home. I need to go home.
1:02:39So what would happen is sometimes I'd be on a trip.
1:02:42I would be with my partner with somewhere.
1:02:44They couldn't get me to leave the hotel room. And.
1:02:46They couldn't get me. And they would be like, what is going on?
1:02:49I was like, I think, I think I need to go home
1:02:51and I can't imagine what they were going through.
1:02:53But for me, I was and I was, I was trapped.
1:02:55And until I understood how dependent and ADHD brain is on routine.
1:03:03Did I then understand
1:03:04what was happening was like, oh, because it's a new place.
1:03:08Time zones have screwed me over.
1:03:10I also have nothing to do, which is the most crippling thing.
1:03:13Funny enough for an ADHD brain.
1:03:15What are we doing?
1:03:16What do you want to do? Right? What do you mean what do I want to do?
1:03:18I don't know, my brain jams my brain.
1:03:21I know how to give me a schedule.
1:03:23That's from, you know, 8:00 am until midnight.
1:03:26I'm fine.
1:03:27Give me space.
1:03:28The brain panics, ADHD, you know, too many choices.
1:03:31And then now, literally, what I'll do
1:03:32is I'll only medicate most of the time when I'm traveling first day,
1:03:37because I just know for that first day it just brings my brain down.
1:03:41I don't think about what's tomorrow, what's the next day,
1:03:43what's the next day, what am I doing on the trip?
1:03:45What are the because I would rush to the conclusion of the trip.
1:03:47And I know a lot of people will do that with ADHD in the now and not now is
1:03:52your brain has the ability.
1:03:55But I mean infinitely.
1:03:57So do you know how many ADHD people I'll speak to as like kids or parents
1:04:01or just people?
1:04:02And I have such empathy for them
1:04:04because I go, you don't understand what you're experiencing.
1:04:07So you might think, for instance, you you are you have depression.
1:04:11But I go, no, no, your depression is from ADHD is not just like a depression,
1:04:14which it could be on its own.
1:04:16But sometimes this is what like my brain will do.
1:04:19And I've spoken to a lot of people who experience this.
1:04:22I'll wake up in the morning,
1:04:24I go, what time is it?
1:04:26Oh, it's 30 minutes before I need to get up.
1:04:29Okay.
1:04:30Should I sleep now? Maybe I'll wake up. Okay.
1:04:31I'll wake up then. What I do?
1:04:33I gotta go brush my teeth.
1:04:34Then I've got a shower.
1:04:36I want to get dressed, then I've got to leave the house.
1:04:39Then I've got to go to the office. Now.
1:04:41I got to have that meeting that I'm going to have that next meeting,
1:04:43that I'm gonna have that other meeting, then I'm going to do that thing.
1:04:45Then I've got to go to the dinner that that those people have planned.
1:04:47Then I had to come. Oh, then I've got to find time to work out.
1:04:49Then I got to my plan, my outfit for the way.
1:04:52Then you do it the next day.
1:04:54You do the same thing.
1:04:56You brush your teeth again.
1:04:57Oh, you got to get clothes.
1:04:58Okay. Wait. How many years does this happen for?
1:05:01Oh, wait.
1:05:02So we just going to do this for like 80 years?
1:05:0490 years?
1:05:05We're just going to keep on doing this.
1:05:07And then what the next generation does it.
1:05:09And then as well.
1:05:10Why am I waking up? Wait I'm going to come back to bed anyway.
1:05:12What's the point of leaving the bed? Why am I leave? Why am I waking up?
1:05:15What are we all doing? Why are we building these things?
1:05:17Why are we not?
1:05:17And you will be shocked at how
1:05:20ADHD brains can do this for everything, for people.
1:05:24So even in a relationship,
1:05:28you'll have a fight.
1:05:31And then your brain goes, oh, fight.
1:05:34This is. And this is how.
1:05:35And this is hard. And what's the point of relationships?
1:05:38And yes, everything ends with.
1:05:40And there's typically a time of day.
1:05:42There's a place where everybody's going.
1:05:44Yes, you're not wrong.
1:05:45It's time of. Day. Ruminate.
1:05:46And all the rumination is in as an anxiety thing, too.
1:05:49But that rumination as part of ADHD is made.
1:05:51It really is.
1:05:52And if there's a certain time of day I'm a nighttime person, I can lose my mind.
1:05:56And I can, I tell you
1:05:58so if there's one thing I've learned from my brain,
1:06:01the mornings is where I have the biggest feelings of
1:06:05what is the point of this whole thing we're doing right?
1:06:09The evenings.
1:06:10This is where I have the I mean, anything can happen.
1:06:13So it's like
1:06:15an existential morning.
1:06:17You're crazy. Evening. Yo.
1:06:19The morning, the morning. No. The mornings.
1:06:21Let me tell you something. In the morning.
1:06:23Can I tell you something?
1:06:24The worst thing you can do to me in the morning.
1:06:26The worst thing you can do to me in the morning.
1:06:28And I've experienced this.
1:06:30I remember someone turn to me in the morning and said, hey, do you love me?
1:06:34This is in the morning.
1:06:37What do you left me?
1:06:38Did you love them? And I did so, but.
1:06:40I did, but I did, but my brain went.
1:06:43Nuts.
1:06:45How does anyone define love?
1:06:47What is love?
1:06:48Oh, and that pissed that.
1:06:49Oh, you. Oh that poor.
1:06:51And what is it about my words that will make you feel like your day
1:06:54got better or worse? So you're like. I don't know.
1:06:56My brain was like, oh, and my brain did that.
1:06:58And in my brain, maybe this was two seconds, but it lasted a lifetime.
1:07:02A person, the. Person that went, oh, what was that pause?
1:07:04What was that past?
1:07:05And then I go, no, no, no. Yeah, of course I love you.
1:07:08Then they go like, no, what was that? Pause.
1:07:09And now we're in fight land.
1:07:11But they just started to fight. Right.
1:07:13But we were in fight land because the person like,
1:07:15I can't believe you put why do you put a knife?
1:07:16I explain it, it's terrible. Well, but why would you even think that?
1:07:19What kind of person would think.
1:07:20You just always have a message
1:07:21for the person of the person with a person with ADHD is not always about you.
1:07:25That's hard to learn.
1:07:26That's hard because it. Always should be. What it is about me.
1:07:29But it's not like that pause or that like what it says
1:07:33is not necessarily about you.
1:07:35It's about something
1:07:35is going on in that person's head that you don't even know about you.
1:07:38Yeah, the night time version is and I know this
1:07:42with like a lot of my ADHD friends, that's like, we call that sugar time.
1:07:47Is second time.
1:07:47Oh my.
1:07:48It's literally it came from start zooming.
1:07:50No, it came from the direct thing which was sugar.
1:07:52So we all start craving sugar, I can't eat sweet things in the morning.
1:07:57Pancakes or. I don't know how people do that.
1:07:59I'm like, no little sugar cereal, I can't I night time.
1:08:04Let me tell you something.
1:08:05If there is sugar hidden in your house, I will find it.
1:08:08Okay,
1:08:09if you think there's sugar in your house and you're not sure where it is,
1:08:12call me over night and I will find that sugar for you.
1:08:16And then my brain then goes like but for.
1:08:18And we call it sugar time because it's like the
1:08:21it's sort of the manifestation of sugar as a concept.
1:08:23Is it like sugar? Time for everything.
1:08:25Then it's like, what's happening? Where's it happening?
1:08:28Who's it happening with, and where are we going?
1:08:30What do we do?
1:08:31Oh yeah. Oh, this is sleep is terrible.
1:08:34Nothing good has ever happened during sleep. No.
1:08:36Tell me one great story that involves sleep. None.
1:08:39What about what about a good dream?
1:08:40History is there's no.
1:08:42I mean, okay, MLK had a dream.
1:08:44Okay.
1:08:45Yes. Oh, wait.
1:08:47No. When he first had the dream.
1:08:48He had the dream. So maybe.
1:08:50That's. The one.
1:08:50That's the only great thing that's happened in sleep was his dream.
1:08:54The rest of history happened when people were awake.
1:08:57I love that you said that because it's it's
1:08:59it's learning yourself, being honest with yourself.
1:09:03And if there's one piece of advice I would give people think of the ADHD
1:09:08as this little gremlin passenger in my life who I have a fun relationship
1:09:11with, by the way.
1:09:12I don't resent it. Yeah, I don't hate it.
1:09:15But what I will I'll do is I'll call it out.
1:09:17Like I'll actively say at times.
1:09:19You'll find if you leave a microphone in my home randomly, you'll hear me going,
1:09:24hello ADHD, I just say this every now and again.
1:09:27I'll just be like,
1:09:29there you my mom's going to be like, yeah, you're.
1:09:31Yeah, my mom.
1:09:33Is the spirit.
1:09:35My mom actually, love it. Yes.
1:09:38But I promise you.
1:09:40I promise you I do that all the time. Yes.
1:09:43Because I've also learned
1:09:44for people with ADHD, it's nice to to to remove the shame.
1:09:48Yeah.
1:09:49Because people will tell you the thing you're experiencing is bullshit.
1:09:53They'll tell you that it's not real. You need to get over it.
1:09:55You just need to work just to function, function, function.
1:09:57But people just say this to you, but it's like, no, just trust me.
1:10:01Take it out of yourself and say,
1:10:05Hello, old friend. Eliza. Hello. Yeah.
1:10:07You just like, look at you. You want some ice cream? Do you.
1:10:09Know ice cream for. You? You know.
1:10:11And then I'll.
1:10:11I'll even play the game. I'll be like, okay, how about this?
1:10:14If you have very cold water and you still want ice cream, 30 minutes
1:10:17later, you can do it.
1:10:19And then I'll go and drink like a cold glass of water
1:10:21and see what happens in 30 minutes, 90% of the time I don't want the ice cream.
1:10:26You've you've moved on.
1:10:27Yeah, but it's also because I've started to learn.
1:10:29I've started to learn that sometimes the thing that you look like
1:10:33this is for everyone.
1:10:34The thing that you craving is oftentimes the manifestation of lacking
1:10:38something else. Yeah.
1:10:39So what I've tried to learn to do is go, what is happening right now?
1:10:44I'm craving ice cream.
1:10:46But what is ice cream?
1:10:47It's a cold thing to sweet thing.
1:10:49Let me try. Break it down.
1:10:50Start with the cold. You're a thinker.
1:10:52Yeah, I am a overthinker. Yeah.
1:10:54So I start with a cold.
1:10:56And then I go. And also. What does it do? Okay.
1:10:58It also does hydrate me.
1:10:59So I'll go with something cold and hydrating that has no sugar.
1:11:02See how I feel.
1:11:04And most of the time I find those small things.
1:11:07But I gamify everything in my life.
1:11:09Too, right? So that's 80s brain again.
1:11:10The superpower. You're a thinker.
1:11:13You think very deeply, and then you are willing to try
1:11:16different interventions to solve your problem.
1:11:19So you don't just give up and give in to the ice cream.
1:11:22And a brain that's like, maybe depressed might just say, well,
1:11:25forget it, it's hopeless. It's worthless.
1:11:27I'm just going to give in to the ice cream.
1:11:29You're like, no, this is serving a function.
1:11:31I need to try to figure out what the function of this craving is.
1:11:34How can I come up with a plan so that I don't engage in this behavior?
1:11:37Like there's multiple levels, and that can be exhausting
1:11:41if you have to do it with every decision you make, which some people
1:11:44get into like analysis paralysis when it comes to that ADHD,
1:11:47because they're over thinking whether or not and it's not
1:11:51necessarily anxiety, but it's like trying to plan out the consequences.
1:11:55Yes, because. You're a problem solver. Yes.
1:11:57And problem solvers are very tied to consequence of behavior.
1:12:01So it's like, well, if I did it this way,
1:12:04this might happen in this way, this might happen if I did it this way.
1:12:07And then you've lost track of time while you're doing all of that.
1:12:10So I think is good.
1:12:11That would be a thinker.
1:12:12Yeah.
1:12:12Which is also why the capitalistic societies are.
1:12:16Right to bring. It back. Yeah.
1:12:17Why this has been so useful for me.
1:12:19I just think for people that are in community with people
1:12:23and with ADHD, whether you're a parent, partner
1:12:26or a friend, it's like our job is to like understand the superpower.
1:12:29Like understand how you how it works.
1:12:32Understand if you're drinking some water late at night.
1:12:36Oh, they probably wanted ice cream. They're having the water.
1:12:39Leave them. Don't be like. Why are you drinking?
1:12:41Yeah, glass. Of water at 1230 in the morning.
1:12:43To be like this is their way of coping.
1:12:46And you just say to our community, yeah, we need to be in community
1:12:49with people and other people who have
1:12:52similar and dissimilar experience because it can get very lonely.
1:12:56Yeah, it sounds like a lonely.
1:12:57It can be very lonely.
1:12:58You got to be in community, like you got to find your tribe
1:13:02and this is a big thing for me right now with the young adults
1:13:06I'm working with who have ADHD.
1:13:08It's like they have not found their tribe. Yeah.
1:13:10And then they internalize it, and then they feel super depressed, like,
1:13:13what is wrong with me? Why does it never work?
1:13:16And so I want I want to tell young adults with ADHD and teens with ADHD,
1:13:20you will find your tribe, but you have got to seek them out
1:13:23and that tribe may not be the people who like, look like you all
1:13:28who have the same interests.
1:13:29But the superpower of having ADHD is you're willing
1:13:32to put yourself out there and take a risk.
1:13:34And so you may have to take a risk with different people.
1:13:37You have a tribe. You haven't found it yet.
1:13:40Because you have found your tribe.
1:13:41Doesn't mean you'll never find your tribe,
1:13:43because I also get worried about those people in terms of suicide out.
1:13:46Because there's the loneliness, there's the like, does anybody care about me?
1:13:49I can't get anything right.
1:13:50What's your relationship and what's wrong with me?
1:13:53And so just like having some hope and knowing
1:13:56there is you've got to try and then parents leave them alone.
1:13:59If the tribe is online like they have a try.
1:14:02Yeah.
1:14:03I just want you to have some social connections, safe social connections.
1:14:05I want you playing with like adults of your kid.
1:14:08But we need to have, that's why we have kids in sports and doing activities.
1:14:13We want them to build relationships with different groups of people.
1:14:15But as adults, once we get into our careers, we can become isolated.
1:14:20And so you have got to have community.
1:14:22You got to have a tribe.
1:14:24You have to have community. Yeah.
1:14:25You guys are a tribe. Yeah, reluctantly.
1:14:30I love it.
1:14:31And any other way you guys.
1:14:33Don't go anywhere because we got more.
1:14:35What now?
1:14:36After this.
1:14:44You know,
1:14:45there's an idea that I have often say to Christiana,
1:14:48I go, there's moments where I dream of being a dictator, just like a
1:14:52like a small island. Said this.
1:14:55You said this is not the time.
1:14:56Yeah. I'm not Pakistan.
1:14:59I would I would love to be a dictator of a small island, though,
1:15:02like just a small place, because I think the small number helps
1:15:05you be a little more nimble, you know, like like like Sweden, for instance.
1:15:08I would love you as an advisor, you know, Swedes, 4 million people or whatever.
1:15:11It's like, it's easy.
1:15:12It's easier to do things and see how they work.
1:15:15300 million people is chaos.
1:15:17And, and
1:15:18one of the experiments I would love to conduct
1:15:21because I, I, I'm sure
1:15:23there will be second system effects, don't get me wrong.
1:15:26But I wonder what would happen.
1:15:28Two things.
1:15:28One, I wonder what would happen if we treated almost everybody
1:15:34who we think is an outlier in society just for ADHD.
1:15:38And I know this is a gross mal practicing of science and medicine,
1:15:42so don't cosign this at all.
1:15:44I'm just telling you about my crazy world.
1:15:47I would love to see what would happen.
1:15:49No joke if everyone who is
1:15:52homeless gets ADHD medication like people in the street.
1:15:56Like we don't want people like that person is crazy.
1:15:57I genuinely would love to see what I just want to see what would happen.
1:16:00You give all of them ADHD medication, you give everyone in prison,
1:16:04ADHD medication, or every kid who's been expelled ADHD everyone.
1:16:08I'm willing to bet money.
1:16:10Yes they will be.
1:16:11Please terms and conditions apply.
1:16:13There's obviously gonna be something for you.
1:16:14I want him to be making this exact ADHD medication.
1:16:16Will go very bad.
1:16:17There you. Go. So that's. Why I'm sure they have a hard. Problem.
1:16:19Terms and conditions. Apply. Right. Those are terms. And conditions apply.
1:16:22I'm not saying, but I'm willing to bet you will see a massive amount
1:16:27of that population no longer have the problem.
1:16:30And I can't help but think to myself, how many people in our society
1:16:35are one intervention away and not a massive one, by the way, right?
1:16:39One intervention away from being fully back in society, fully
1:16:44part of a community, and fully being back to who they wish to be as a human being.
1:16:49Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
1:16:50So I'm from Chicago originally
1:16:53and Cook County Jail at one time.
1:16:56They are the person who was in charge of the director was a clinical psychologist.
1:17:00And I think this was a few years back, and she did a program where she had
1:17:05when people came in and they were repeat offenders, they got a psych eval
1:17:09as part of the psyche vows, they were able to determine
1:17:12that many of the people who were coming through this system,
1:17:15this program actually had met criteria for diagnoses,
1:17:19and then they were able to get them medicated, right.
1:17:21They were able to get them on. Even if it wasn't medication.
1:17:23They were able to get them some psychotherapeutic intervention.
1:17:26Yeah.
1:17:26And the types of gains that can be made from doing that type of intervention.
1:17:30Right.
1:17:30So even if you don't have an island, what will happen
1:17:34in terms of reform in the justice system?
1:17:37If people had access to high
1:17:40quality mental health care before they got there?
1:17:43Right. I'm in private practice.
1:17:46People will ask, why don't you accept insurance?
1:17:48Insurance companies don't value mental health right now.
1:17:51So they're starting to understand that if we can treat depression,
1:17:55you're more likely to follow through on your medication regimen when it comes
1:17:59to the hypertension, when it when it comes to like the diabetes, right.
1:18:03If you're not depressed, if I've treated your depression,
1:18:05you're going to be more likely
1:18:06to change your lifestyle factors exercise, diet, etc..
1:18:11So if we address mental health first, we can actually do medicine,
1:18:15physiological medicine, a big service because people would be engaged
1:18:21and invested in taking care of their bodies
1:18:23and making different choices about the way they ate, etc., etc.
1:18:26but it's almost like mental health care is an afterthought.
1:18:29And so I think there are many different avenues
1:18:32to actually make what you want to see have it happen.
1:18:34It could be school systems. It could be like,
1:18:38juvenile justice systems.
1:18:40It could.
1:18:40I just think there's ways I don't think that's a far fetched idea.
1:18:44May not be an island.
1:18:45Yeah. I mean.
1:18:45You know, I think it's a far fetched.
1:18:48In. South Africa without foundation.
1:18:49The thing we did was we we brought in psychiatric
1:18:53help to the schools because they didn't have it.
1:18:55And we found the results were in it was exponential.
1:18:59Just.
1:18:59And here's one of the most interesting ones we learned.
1:19:03We learned that our foundation
1:19:05just having someone to talk to improved kids scores.
1:19:09You literally didn't have to fix the problem.
1:19:11They were kids who were coming from homes where they were neglected,
1:19:14they were abused, they were beaten, they were whatever it was.
1:19:17And we were like, what do we do?
1:19:18How do we fix this?
1:19:20And then we were humbled
1:19:21to realize that most of the kids weren't looking for someone to fix it.
1:19:24They just needed somebody to speak to,
1:19:28and all of a sudden their grades would improve.
1:19:30They just needed somebody to say, you're not crazy.
1:19:33Your parents aren't
1:19:34treating you well, your community isn't looking after you.
1:19:38And yes, you're validated and the kids
1:19:41scores would go up and you're like, this is come on.
1:19:45This is this is beyond basic.
1:19:47The other thing I think of and, you know, we we've said it
1:19:50multiple times in this conversation, and I love how you've tied in.
1:19:54There was a beautiful conversation that I had on The Daily Show
1:19:59with a woman who is one of the foremost, like disability advocates,
1:20:02advocates in the US. Right.
1:20:04So she was part of the team that was behind the Disability
1:20:07Rights Act in America. So people take for granted.
1:20:10There was a time when places didn't have ramps right?
1:20:13Places didn't have any accessibility features at all.
1:20:16It was like, oh, you can't come up stairs. Tough luck. Right.
1:20:20And she said something really fantastic to me.
1:20:21She said, you know, the biggest arrogance a mistake
1:20:25people make is one they always assume that they will never be disabled.
1:20:29Right?
1:20:29This is like, no, you just it can happen to you
1:20:31through age, through accident, through whatever it is in life.
1:20:34It can always it's it's an opt in service.
1:20:37Surprisingly.
1:20:39And she said, you also take for granted how
1:20:44the idea that seems like a burden today because you're doing it
1:20:47for others is actually the thing that's going to help you.
1:20:51So they designed ramps at supermarkets
1:20:56for people with disabilities.
1:20:58Do you know who uses ramps more than anyone now
1:21:02is people who are fully able bodied and have found it's
1:21:05an easier way to roll things up and down into a supermarket.
1:21:08I'm always with my with you, with my stroller.
1:21:10Yes. Ramps again. Yeah, but changes for me.
1:21:13I can take my kids into a supermarket because as a yes.
1:21:16Because there's a ramp.
1:21:17And then you go, thank you. Disability advocacy.
1:21:20Do you get I'm saying all the things and it's like it seems and I think of it.
1:21:24Let's let's go through everything we discussed today.
1:21:27We start with the kids. Yeah, right.
1:21:29You go everything you're talking about for an ADHD kid, if we learn
1:21:34how to implement those systems for ADHD kids, other kids benefits, right?
1:21:39Yeah. How do you make a classroom more engaging? Yeah.
1:21:42How do you talk to your child?
1:21:44How do you engage with your child?
1:21:46How do you empathize with them?
1:21:47You apply that to a non ADHD brain.
1:21:51It's still going to be rewarded.
1:21:52It's still going to reward you.
1:21:54The things that you said about athletes and finding purpose
1:21:57on the other side of life and the pivot. Yeah.
1:22:00Yeah, that's great for ADHD. But you know who is also grateful?
1:22:02Everyone else people are going to switch careers.
1:22:05People are going to change what they're doing in life.
1:22:06People are going to find themselves a little unmoored.
1:22:09And this is the same thing.
1:22:10All of a sudden, you found a path.
1:22:12You go to relationships.
1:22:13Yes, your partner might have ADHD.
1:22:16And so it helps to say, hey, are you listening to me?
1:22:18Or I need you to listen right now.
1:22:20Or actually, hey, I noticed you in your trigger right now.
1:22:23Go relax. Go sleep.
1:22:24Let's not do this now because you're going to spot,
1:22:27you know, that also helps people in normal relationships.
1:22:30Yeah, it's just ADHD is the most acute example I find.
1:22:34And it's also the most obvious at times.
1:22:36But I think like if we solve the world for ADHD people,
1:22:40it solves the world for everyone.
1:22:42We're almost like the Canaries in the coal mine, I think where, you know,
1:22:46I genuinely. Think we are. You're showing like the sickness.
1:22:48And I think. Let me tell you something. No, I'll tell you now.
1:22:51If a kid thinks it's boring, they're right.
1:22:54As do you know, because people with, like kids don't.
1:22:56Kids can't.
1:22:57Pay attention.
1:22:57Yo, kids can play 18 hours a fortnight.
1:23:00They can definitely pay.
1:23:01I was in, I took my son to a like a dinner and we were like
1:23:0545 minutes through and he said, how do you guys listen so long.
1:23:10Like ten more minutes?
1:23:11Can we have those? Right.
1:23:14Like it was just going on and on and.
1:23:16On and it was like, yes, we don't have to do all of it.
1:23:19Yes. Do you know what?
1:23:20I was never bored as a kid where, you know, I was never bored.
1:23:23Black church never so much because.
1:23:26Someone would be like,
1:23:26no, it's about listening, yo, when we would go to White Church.
1:23:29Yeah, it was just.
1:23:31All right, here we go.
1:23:32John 316 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son,
1:23:35that whosoever loved him shall not perish but have eternal life as I all.
1:23:38I have a black church.
1:23:40I don't care if you were four years old or 40 years old.
1:23:43That pastor made that sermon come alive in response.
1:23:48Yeah, exactly.
1:23:49Yeah. You're engaged.
1:23:50Standing up, you're standing, you're in.
1:23:52And even as a child, I was like, yes.
1:23:56In Jesus name.
1:23:58I was like, wow. Wow, right, right.
1:24:00I might not understand all these concepts, but I'm you.
1:24:03And that kid says, what is happening like this.
1:24:05And this is a god.
1:24:06And then I'm like, hey, and the pastor will like, repeat something.
1:24:09You know, I don't think you heard me say it again.
1:24:11I'm gonna say it again, right?
1:24:12I'm gonna say it. Again because he knows we have ADHD.
1:24:15You see what I mean?
1:24:15But no, that works for the whole congregation.
1:24:17And so I feel like like in these things, sometimes people I can understand
1:24:21if you don't have ADHD, you're going like,
1:24:24this silly sounding because it really
1:24:27sounds like a little quirky little, you know, disorder that people have.
1:24:31Everyone has ADHD. Yeah. Everything good. Everybody does.
1:24:33Well, I also struggle to get out of bed.
1:24:35Get over it.
1:24:37You think I like the office?
1:24:39Get over it.
1:24:40Oh, please.
1:24:41You can't pack your suit. Get over it.
1:24:44I understand where you're coming from, but mark my words,
1:24:47if you listen to ADHD people and you quote unquote
1:24:50fix the world for them, you will live in a better world.
1:24:54I grew up sometimes that was not quite as loud at night, but our brains can exist.
1:24:58I think they can't.
1:24:59And I think sometimes if you take that so I'll I'll challenge
1:25:02my friends who are parents of ADHD kids and I'll say this to them, I'll go and I
1:25:06go, please.
1:25:07I say this with all the compassion in my heart because I know you're busy.
1:25:10I know you're tired. I know, I know all this.
1:25:12I'm not saying you're not.
1:25:13And even a person who's in a relationship with someone with ADHD,
1:25:16I know it's I know it's annoying.
1:25:18I know how much you hate repeating yourself.
1:25:20I know how much you feel like you, you know, going through the same cycle of,
1:25:23I say, all of those caveats,
1:25:26but you'll be shocked at how much fun you can have
1:25:29and how much it can benefit you to take it as as a fun challenge.
1:25:32So, for instance, I say to parents of ADHD kids, sometimes
1:25:36your child with ADHD who's like climbing on the couch
1:25:40and then like standing on a thing and then doing somersaults in the living.
1:25:43You know what they might actually expose for you if you're willing to listen to it,
1:25:47they might show you how little you move.
1:25:50Do. You know what I'm saying?
1:25:53Because you're living a sedentary lifestyle,
1:25:56you barely move.
1:25:57You sit at the office, you sit in your car, and then you sit at home.
1:26:02Now another child is able
1:26:04to mold themselves to match what you're doing.
1:26:08An ADHD kid cannot.
1:26:09They need to get the thing out of their body. It's cool.
1:26:12It's got some image on them.
1:26:14Yeah, pent up energy, but now they're exposing it
1:26:17like like you, you you go like, this kid can never sit still.
1:26:20But sometimes you ask yourself like,
1:26:23I've noticed that we sit still quite a lot. Yes.
1:26:26Like, look at that as a challenge and go like, okay, every time they do that,
1:26:29do 20 squats with them, do jumping jacks with them for a minute. Do.
1:26:33Yes, exactly.
1:26:34But this is. Already in good shape.
1:26:36This is my point.
1:26:37This is exactly my point is that sometimes you can find things
1:26:43that you've taken for granted that can actually help you as well.
1:26:47And that, like the gamification can go both ways, is what I'm saying.
1:26:50But it's like, yeah, solve the world for others and solve the world for yourself.
1:26:54I love it. That's a beautiful refrain. Yeah.
1:26:57This has been so much fun.
1:26:58It was so much fun. Thank you.
1:26:59I hope we have you back again at the end.
1:27:01By the way, thank you for being a bridge as well.
1:27:03You know, I think as you said, you know, like, black
1:27:07people just take for granted how culturally
1:27:10certain cultures are going to catch up to certain ideas in different ways.
1:27:13Right.
1:27:13And I remember when I was diagnosed, my first time
1:27:16actually was when I was diagnosed with Aids. Back then, they.
1:27:19Just called in deficit disorder when I was just 80, in fact.
1:27:21No, that back then they called it hyperactivity.
1:27:24That's all they called it. Okay. So that was like.
1:27:26This was I was like 6 or 5.
1:27:29So you know what it probably was was that ICD ten,
1:27:32which is the international system.
1:27:34Probably. Was calling it one thing.
1:27:36And then the United States system was calling it aid.
1:27:39Right.
1:27:39And so now they try to be on the same page.
1:27:42So they said to me, your title, your they said to my mom,
1:27:45so the school said to my mom, I guess they did a good job.
1:27:48They said, hey, you need to take this kid for evaluation.
1:27:51He's very smart, but he's chaos.
1:27:53But not he's not rude, he's not anything.
1:27:55He's just chaos though.
1:27:56And she took me in and they told her that.
1:27:59And when we came out by mom, I said, what did they say?
1:28:02And mom said, I suck at these people.
1:28:03They they said, you, you you, you hyperactive.
1:28:06I said, this is a child.
1:28:07And they said, no, but he's very hyperactive.
1:28:09And I said, so what do we do when she says, honey, we pray.
1:28:13We pray.
1:28:14Right, let's move on. And I said, but we've been praying.
1:28:16And she said.
1:28:17That's we've been praying.
1:28:19And it hasn't worked. And she said, yes, sweetie.
1:28:21And that's then once
1:28:23the praying doesn't work, then that's what the beatings are for.
1:28:26Then we will, she said, we'll we'll beat it out of you, my child.
1:28:28Don't worry.
1:28:29And your rules?
1:28:29My favorite thing is she made it seem like it was going to be a team effort.
1:28:33My mom didn't make it seem like I was going to get.
1:28:35She was like me. She was afraid. She was like.
1:28:37Honey, I'm not even a threat.
1:28:39She made it like, honey, you know what, baby?
1:28:41We're going to beat this thing.
1:28:43We will take a stick and we will beat this thing out of you, baby.
1:28:47We're not going to let it win.
1:28:48And I'm like, this sounds like a team talk, but I'm the one.
1:28:54Who's going to be beat you in the same job.
1:28:56But no, I
1:28:57the reason I say thank you for bridging the gap is because it doesn't matter.
1:29:00Black, Latino or, you know, you name it might you know
1:29:04how many of my Asian friends have told me in a different way
1:29:07they've had like a it's not the spiritual one.
1:29:09Their one is like a no no, suck it up, keep moving vibe. Yeah.
1:29:12That's like up on my brain.
1:29:13No, no, no. What do you mean, your brain? Hey, you make it work.
1:29:16And I think.
1:29:16Right, I think it would be great for us to find those bridges
1:29:19because somebody sees a doctor who looks like them.
1:29:22Sounds like them is.
1:29:23So you don't roll your eyes when someone says that's the.
1:29:26That's a spirit. That's a that's a demon. You don't go like.
1:29:29They bring up a spirit.
1:29:30Yeah. I'm totally I'm gonna be like, okay, you did it first.
1:29:34But you see I think yeah, I think so.
1:29:36You see, that's what I was going to say.
1:29:38Yes, that's what I was going to say.
1:29:39We take for granted that most of the ideas of professionalism
1:29:43that we've adopted in society are a homogenous idea of professionalism.
1:29:47Right. So we go that's not professional.
1:29:49What we mean is that's not stock standard white men like WASPy
1:29:53white men as well, because southern white men are my southern friends.
1:29:56They have a different vibe of what professionalism is.
1:29:59They'll say thing, hey darlin.
1:30:00There's like, hey, hey, that's not professional.
1:30:02You don't call people darling.
1:30:03Yes, but then you do. Yes.
1:30:05You know, and then you go.
1:30:06All around the world, Italians have different professionalism.
1:30:08French people have different professions.
1:30:10And I think that's something we take for granted when we're treating
1:30:13people, helping people, discussing things with people.
1:30:16We forget that guy is an African doctor.
1:30:19We'll joke with you in a setting where no joke would be told, you know what I mean?
1:30:24Like a white person would go, I cannot.
1:30:26Believe that an African.
1:30:29Doctor can come in and just be like, so you're dying
1:30:32and you're like, what?
1:30:33Yeah, you're dying. You're dead this week.
1:30:35No, I'm joking, I'm joking.
1:30:36No. I'm joking.
1:30:37No. The blood test came back. You're looking. Good.
1:30:40Like that is unprofessional, right, African?
1:30:42There's an element of, like, you. Come on. Okay.
1:30:44You can't be serious all. The time, right?
1:30:47And I think those things are beautiful to examine.
1:30:49It's like it's fun to be in a space
1:30:51with somebody who knows you, even though they've never met you.
1:30:54Because then I think they can help you get to the place where they helping
1:30:58you fix the problem.
1:30:59But they're not seeing who you are as part of the problem.
1:31:01They're not seeing your culture as part of the problem.
1:31:03They're able to split it and go, oh no, no, no, that's not a problem.
1:31:07That's just black.
1:31:09This is the thing we're actually trying to solve.
1:31:11Yeah. So I'm it's been really wonderful meeting you.
1:31:13Thank you. You're doing.
1:31:14That.
1:31:14You're doing the good work.
1:31:21What now with Trevor Noah is produced
1:31:23by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions.
1:31:27The show was executive produced by Trevor Noah, Samas Yamin and Jody Avigan.
1:31:32Our senior producer is Jess Hackel.
1:31:34Claire Slaughter is our producer.
1:31:37Music mixing and mastering by Hannah Brown.
1:31:40Thank you so much for listening.
1:31:42Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?

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