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My 'Red Pill' suicide mission, with director Cassie Jaye — Transcript

by Rebel Wisdom · 8,970 words · 1,228 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:01[Music]
0:05the red pill was one of the most
0:08polarizing documentaries of recent years
0:11it showed self-described feminist cassie
0:14j going inside the men's rights movement
0:16in the US where she changes her mind
0:20about feminism the conversation is being
0:24silenced for a society to accept
0:27anything said on behalf of women's
0:30rights and then to shame any dialogue
0:33about men's rights and call it hate
0:35speech is precisely the problem I don't
0:40know where I'm headed but I know what I
0:43left behind I no longer call myself a
0:47feminist a word-of-mouth hit it also
0:51provoked protests some extremely
0:54critical reviews and was even banned
0:56from some cinemas in Australia so you
1:00brought out the red pill is it two years
1:03three years ago now yeah two tears and
1:07so there's one thing there's the film
1:08itself and I'd love to talk to you about
1:10that and your journey about making it
1:12and then there's another thing which is
1:13the reaction to the film why I'm really
1:15interested in that is that it shows a
1:17lot about the cultural moment that we're
1:20in when I watched the film as a
1:21filmmaker I I had a slight suspicion or
1:25just I wondered like how authentic the
1:28journey was because it was very like the
1:32narrative was was sort of very powerful
1:34you came in as a feminist and then work
1:37were sort of your mind was changed by
1:39the stories that you heard and you came
1:41out with a very different experience and
1:43I we interviewed Warren Farrell recently
1:46in in America and I sort of said that to
1:49him I was like well you know Cassie and
1:51how authentic was that journey and he
1:53said no it's completely authentic and
1:55told me a little bit about the backstory
1:56of what you were telling him as you were
1:58going through it so I'd love to hear
2:00more about that journey that you went
2:02through him making it I appreciate you
2:04being honest that you're skeptical of is
2:06this girl for real was she really a
2:08feminist and then sort of questioned her
2:10beliefs after talk
2:11men's rights activists and I think I
2:14would have had the same reaction if I
2:15didn't make the red pill movie and I
2:17watched it as a feminist I think I would
2:19have been very skeptical well first of
2:21all I don't know if I would have watched
2:22the red pill movie seeing how the media
2:24was talking about the film but yeah I
2:28definitely would have been skeptical
2:29because it is such a sensational idea
2:32for a story for a documentary and it's
2:35almost too strange to be true but yeah
2:42it was actually kind of a suicide
2:43mission for me where I had a hundred
2:46hours of footage after filming men's
2:48rights activist for a year and but
2:51working on the film for three and a half
2:53years and I I knew the journey that I
2:57went on was going to make me extremely
3:01vulnerable and open to critique and
3:04debate and and probably a lot of people
3:07would question you know
3:09Who am I and am I true and in my video
3:14diaries and and my interviews and all
3:16that and even men's rights activists
3:18were questioning me as a documentary
3:20filmmaker going in to interview them so
3:22really everyone was wondering is this
3:24chick for real so yeah I knew in making
3:29the film there was gonna be a lot of
3:31skepticism about me and I I just figured
3:35while I have to put it out there and
3:36whatever happens happens and I I say it
3:39was a suicide mission because if it
3:40completely flopped and failed knowing
3:43that I put the raw real journey out
3:45there then as well as having this stigma
3:49now against my name being a part of this
3:51highly controversial topic for a film I
3:53would have to go into hiding in it and I
3:56resolved that in my head as well I can
3:58just become a mother I'm already a
4:01hermit anyways I'm I'm a homebody so I
4:05was willing to take that risk and and
4:07luckily the film really resonated with a
4:11lot of people around the world so I'm
4:13I'm glad I took that risk could you
4:15describe that journey and what you went
4:18through what were your intentions going
4:20into it what happened during it and and
4:22where did you end up
4:24well my attentions going into it were I
4:27mean it talks a little bit about it in
4:29the film I was looking into the rape
4:32culture topic for a documentary and what
4:35really made me decide not to do a film
4:38about that was because it was so
4:39depressing when I started looking into
4:41the stories that I could cover and I I
4:43didn't know if I could put years of my
4:45mental headspace into that topic by when
4:49when I was trying to figure out the
4:51cause of the feminist view of rape
4:54culture I was pointed towards the men's
4:56rights movement and at the time a voice
4:59for men this online hub of men's rights
5:01activists was the largest and fasting
5:03fastest growing men's rights movement
5:05online and they were definitely the most
5:07controversial with Polly Elam being The
5:10provocateur of the movement and I
5:13thought well this is interesting and I I
5:17researched and found that no one had
5:19ever made a film on men's rights
5:21movement before it was fairly a young
5:23movement still so I thought I was gonna
5:25be the first and it was going to be a
5:28shocking piece and it would be a
5:30feminist going undercover into this
5:32misogynistic world and I would expose
5:35them for who they really are and and
5:39really that's what I thought the film
5:41was going to become and sure enough as I
5:45started interviewing men's rights
5:46activists I knew that that idea that I
5:50had of men's rights activist was not the
5:52truth of who they really were and what
5:54they cared about or why they were part
5:55of the men's rights movement and so then
5:58I had to put my own agenda aside and
6:01really start to listen to what they had
6:03to say and why they care about this
6:04movement and and ask myself is there
6:06still a story here and there were
6:09definitely moments while I was filming
6:11and editing I was wondering well who's
6:13gonna care about you know father's
6:15rights and suicide rates and male
6:17victims of domestic violence do we
6:19really have of all the issues in the
6:21world is this worth someone's two hours
6:23of their time to watch the documentary
6:24and the more I really started to dig
6:27into it I realized
6:29is a huge pervasive issue all throughout
6:32the world with gender relations and and
6:36what's happening for men opting out of
6:38marriage and you know the MiG town
6:40movement and feminism kind of dominating
6:45the the pop culture and the media and
6:49obviously I began to see that with the
6:52release of the film so I didn't know
6:54quite the extent until the film was
6:56released how much the average person's
7:00view of gender politics is really the
7:01the feminist ideology of gender politics
7:05so I and I think what really intrigued
7:10me was how when I started to realize how
7:15bias
7:15I was against men's issues and my
7:18knee-jerk reaction to wanting to dismiss
7:21them or victim blame male victims of
7:24domestic violence for instance I
7:26I realized that wow this is a lot deeper
7:28than that I thought I really do
7:31appreciate that you told me that you're
7:32skeptical of my journey making the film
7:35and whether or not it was a scripted
7:37plan for sensationalism and you know
7:42even if I never made the red pill movie
7:43and I just went on the journey of
7:45filming all these men's rights activists
7:47and questioning my own beliefs I I
7:49really do believe that I benefited from
7:52going going on that journey especially
7:54in my own relationship and also
7:57understanding my father figures and male
8:00friends better I think I could have been
8:03more private about my evolved views and
8:06maybe that would have saved me some
8:08stress over the past few years but
8:11because I chose to take my
8:13transformation public and show it and in
8:16this film it really kind of you know I
8:21guess I asked to be on the stage for
8:24stones to be thrown and
8:27I'm glad that I did it I hope I know
8:33that it helps a lot of people making
8:36this film and and but I don't think it's
8:40I don't think we're anywhere near where
8:43we need to be and I think the red pill
8:45movie was just a very early kind of
8:47icebreaker into these conversations but
8:49I think we have a long way to go with
8:51gender relations and and hopefully
8:54eventually finding a healthier
8:56relationship between the genders but
8:58mostly for children a lot of men's
9:01rights activists I'm hearing are
9:03becoming very anti marriage and kind of
9:07in the sense that McDowell is men going
9:09their own way our anti marriage a lot of
9:11men's rights activists are also moving
9:13in that direction because they believe
9:16the institution of marriage is so
9:18corrupt and divorce courts are so
9:20corrupt that they don't want to engage
9:22in all in it at all and the the danger
9:27and that is children because I I think
9:33we're men's rights activists don't are
9:36contradictory in their views as if
9:38they're anti marriage but they also
9:40stress the importance of present father
9:43figures father to child connection you
9:47need marriage to strengthen that
9:49relationship and men's rights activists
9:51have done a lot of work and even non
9:54men's rights activists have done a lot
9:55of work in showing the importance of
9:57present father figures and the danger of
10:00single mothers and I I would like to see
10:08marriage valued and and looked at from a
10:11scientific standpoint of building a
10:13healthy society rather than from a
10:15religious origin because I'm not
10:20religious and I wouldn't even call
10:22myself a traditionalist but I do think
10:26marriage is a very important part of the
10:29backbone of our society for children so
10:33I think we need a look in that direction
10:37helped to move in it in that direction
10:39you kind of had your focus on gender
10:41issues just before the me to movement
10:44started but in a way you took precisely
10:48the opposite perspective to to where the
10:50culture was going and I say yes I did
10:53yeah
10:54the me to movement really got traction a
10:58few months after the film's release so
11:01there was no way I could know that that
11:03was going to be the parallel media story
11:07along with the red pills release so that
11:10was interesting and I would have loved
11:12to have commented on that movement if I
11:14knew that was going to be coming your
11:18background I mean we talked a little bit
11:20before the cameras were rolling and you
11:21described herself as you live in
11:23California you're you're a liberal I
11:25mean can you sort of sketch out where
11:27you're from and and and what your
11:28personal sort of background is sure oh
11:30well I live in the San Francisco Bay
11:32Area sorry I live in the San Francisco
11:35Bay Area and I grew up in Seattle I went
11:39to high school in Las Vegas I lived in
11:41Los Angeles for about five years in the
11:43film industry pursuing acting at the
11:45time I never really made it I was a
11:47horrible actress but I did a lot of
11:50horror films in LA before moving up to
11:53the Bay Area to continue documentary
11:56filmmaking and I grew up fairly radical
12:03image a local Christian and now I
12:07consider myself agnostic but I left the
12:11church around my late teens around 20
12:15and around that time as I was leaving
12:18the church I was also becoming a
12:20feminist and and that was when social
12:22media was kind of really taking off
12:24around 2000 5 6 7
12:28and I think social media had a lot to do
12:30with me becoming a feminist just seeing
12:34those little info memes and getting
12:37sound bites of you know the pay gap
12:40which at the time I was eating up and
12:42believing and so I became an online
12:47feminist and and for about ten years I
12:50was a feminist before I started making
12:52the red pill movie and you at the end of
12:54the film you say you no longer consider
12:56yourself a feminist how what what did he
13:00mean by that and how would you describe
13:01what it means to say that well that that
13:07was definitely one of the biggest
13:08question marks in my whole journey
13:11making the film was do I keep the label
13:14feminists and try to work within the
13:16movement to make it more inclusive of
13:18men's issues because after learning
13:21about all these issues there's no way to
13:23then walk through the world ignoring
13:25that they exist I mean making the film
13:28and probably for viewers watching the
13:29film you can never see the world the
13:31same way again so I thought do I keep
13:35the title or the label feminist to try
13:37to work within the movement kind of like
13:39a christina hoff sommers the factual
13:40feminist and of course you know I've
13:43seen with her that it doesn't matter if
13:44she calls herself a feminist the the
13:47mainstream press will say what they
13:49wanted her and feminists will disown her
13:52and say you're not with us so I realized
13:56I'm just one person in my late 20s at
13:59the time I don't think I have the power
14:02to work with in a very giant highly
14:05funded movement to try to make it more
14:07inclusive immense issues and so I
14:11decided to drop the label feminist I
14:14[Music]
14:16think that's a good question why I mean
14:19I think I also I think I wanted to see
14:24how people would react I live in the Bay
14:27Area where all my friends and family
14:29consider themselves feminists and it's
14:31kind of a a given I mean the the idea is
14:35that if you're for gender equality then
14:36you're a feminist and it's you can't
14:39have one without the other and
14:42so that I knew that their labeling
14:44themselves feminists based on you know
14:46what they're reading and mostly liberal
14:49publications and and so I thought well
14:52if I make the red pill movie and I share
14:54with them because really in a one dinner
14:56conversation I cannot explain to them
14:58the journey I went on so hopefully I can
15:00make a film to at least be an icebreaker
15:02to these conversations and it did open a
15:04lot of their eyes and minds to
15:07considering men's issues but still many
15:09of them remained feminists identifying
15:12but some of them have gone on their own
15:15kind of rabbit little journey after
15:18watching the film and and started to see
15:21some of the male bashing by feminist
15:23scholars or educators or the media and
15:26started to question well is feminism
15:29really the movement the one and only
15:30movement for gender equality and you
15:34know personally for me I would want to
15:36be a part of a movement for gender
15:37equality that includes men and boys in
15:40in the discussion and I think the first
15:43step is to raising awareness about these
15:45issues which feminism is not doing so I
15:50dropped the label feminists I'm not a
15:52men's rights activists at all I
15:56understand their movement and sympathize
15:59with their cause I think what they're
16:01doing is valuable today I don't know I I
16:05hope it won't be necessary
16:0815 20 50 years from now but right now I
16:11think it is necessary to have this
16:13counterbalance in the gender political
16:15discussion but I'm not a men's rights
16:18activist and what was the reaction among
16:22your friends and kind of your immediate
16:24circle did you have any pushback or did
16:26he lose any friends I lost some friends
16:28and in a fade out kind of way where they
16:31they heard about the red pill or they
16:34saw many imprinted and didn't like what
16:36they read and thought that I'd become
16:38some crazy right winger or something
16:42which I'm not I'm still a registered
16:43Democrat and and I can it hurt myself a
16:46liberal but I've been printed alongside
16:49its white supremacist nationalists and
16:53you know if I read that about some one
16:57of my friends a few years ago back when
16:58I was a feminist I would have been
17:00alarmed too and thought well someone
17:02went off the deep end went crazy you
17:04know put him in a padded room and I
17:06think that's what many of my friends
17:08thought happened to me when we spoke to
17:10Warren Farrell in America recently he
17:12said that you came to him and said oh
17:15are people gonna turn against me and he
17:17said yes they are and at the time you
17:20were like I was looking for some
17:22reassurance and you're you're not giving
17:23it to me yeah I mean a lot of the men so
17:26it's activists and I don't think Warren
17:28Federal Ferrell considers himself a
17:30men's rights activists but but a lot of
17:32the people I talk to during making the
17:34red pill movie did warn me that I would
17:36be career suicide that I would lose
17:39friends and colleagues and and at the
17:42time I thought they were being overly
17:44dramatic and I I just thought the whole
17:48movement was had all these conspiracies
17:51that were unrealistic and maybe wanting
17:54to you know get thing on their movement
17:56riled up to excite people or feel like
17:59they were part of some underground
18:00secret society and so I really kind of
18:05brushed it off and didn't think much of
18:06it but sure enough years later a lot of
18:09their premonitions were correct
18:11what what do you make of the media
18:13response because I sort of looked online
18:15and quite a few that there's some really
18:18harsh criticisms of the film sort of
18:20especially from some of those sort of
18:22more maybe millennial outfits like Vox
18:25and Vice and all of those people that
18:28maybe put some quotes and on-screen here
18:31but what did he make of that response I
18:37mean it was really hard at the time you
18:40know I'm I take a lot of things you know
18:45personally I'm a fairly sensitive person
18:47and you know emotional at times and so
18:49whenever an article is published that's
18:52scathing of me or the film based on
18:55misinformation it's infuriating to me
18:58because I it's obvious they didn't do
19:01their due diligence as
19:02us to really research and and I know the
19:07how the snowball started and and then
19:11saw it rolling down the hill and it
19:13started with our very first review of
19:15the red pill movie in the Village Voice
19:16based on radical feminist bloggers blog
19:21and the misinformation he posted about
19:23me and the men's rights movement and so
19:25that is what had everything spiral out
19:28of control and how the the red pill was
19:30publicized and all the petitions against
19:33the film and the justifications for
19:35banning the film in Australia and Canada
19:37were all based on these lies and it just
19:41made me lose a lot of faith in the media
19:44and also you know social media and the
19:50power and and danger of groupthink and
19:56thought police and and I and I also
20:02acknowledged that I used to be a part of
20:04that and how easily I could have fallen
20:07into that had I never made this film
20:09myself and I don't know if anyone else
20:11would have made the film I would like to
20:12think someone out there is gonna be
20:14making more films about these topics
20:16because I think they need to be talked
20:18about but if I never made the red pill
20:20movie I would have been right alongside
20:22those other feminists trying to ban this
20:24film and based on misinformation whether
20:28any of the criticisms of the film that
20:30you think were justified hmm that's a
20:34very good question
20:37of course the you know my argument is
20:40time constraints is very you know
20:42there's only so much you can do with
20:44what I was aiming for hour and a half
20:46long film became 2 hours so I was
20:47already stretching it kind of long but
20:48there's never enough time to include
20:50everything and and one of I think one
20:53criticism that I would give credit to is
20:57how the red pill movie portrays feminism
21:02and it wasn't a you know malicious
21:06intentional effort to you know make
21:09feminism look any kind of way I actually
21:12think I have far more rational and level
21:15had a feminist but most people going to
21:17the movie theater to watch the red pill
21:19only remember big red with the bright
21:20red hair and so they think that's the
21:22only discussion of feminism is her as
21:24the as the the front of the movement and
21:30I didn't see it that way I think she's
21:32just very memorable but I don't think
21:34that's the you know of all the content
21:36included in the film there's a lot of
21:38other scholars that are feminists that
21:40talk about their views on the men's
21:42rights movement and feminism but I also
21:44didn't see the need to have a whole
21:46history lesson on feminism because there
21:48are for my one red pill movie
21:50documentary there's a thousand or more
21:53feminist documentaries that you can
21:55watch on the same online platforms so to
21:58take up - to take up time from the one
22:01and only documentary on the men's rights
22:03movement to date to take time out of
22:06that to discuss the history of feminism
22:08I I think would have been stolen time so
22:11the criticism was that it was a
22:14caricature of feminism because it was
22:16mainly through this character at big red
22:18is that yeah there was criticism that
22:21feminism moment wasn't portrayed in a
22:24positive light that that more
22:28level-headed feminists would have liked
22:30to see but you know we did have the
22:33executive editor of news magazine who's
22:35certainly very powerful in there and the
22:37feminist majority foundation and and in
22:40universities nationwide Michael Kimmel
22:43is very influential feminist author
22:45Michael Messner is a gender studies
22:48professor i USC and you know I had
22:53feminist friends included in the film so
22:56protesters as well of course the big red
22:58hat to be in there because she was the
23:00only feminist that had a run-in with
23:01men's rights activists face to face and
23:04so it was a kind of a historical
23:07milestone for the men's rights movement
23:08to have this one and only interaction
23:11between feminists and men's rights
23:12activists at an event so I had to be
23:14included and I was lucky enough to get
23:16an interview with her so you know I also
23:19got criticism for including Paul Elam in
23:22the film which if I didn't include Paul
23:26Elam in the film I would see that as a
23:29Aled criticism because he's the most
23:31known men's rights activists at least at
23:33the time when I was filming and why
23:36wouldn't you go to the source of all the
23:38controversy and so there there's even
23:44student groups who have screened the red
23:46pill movie and then have been banned
23:49from pride parades and participating and
23:52other events just because they screen
23:54the red pill movie which had Paul Elam
23:57in it so it wasn't the movie itself that
23:59was the problem but the fact that Paul
24:01Elam was in the film was the problem so
24:03there's just no way to win is the thing
24:05on you know I maybe eventually there
24:09will be a sequel who knows or another
24:12filmmaker I hope will be interested in
24:14tackling the men's rights movement and
24:16they can do their own treatment of how
24:17they lay the issues out there or the
24:21members but you know it's good to
24:25critique films though because that's
24:26that's what you wanted as a filmmaker is
24:28conversation do you think with with
24:32Pauly Lam you could have been a little
24:33bit more hard on him I mean my sense
24:36watching the film was that as you just
24:39said before you're not really a
24:41confrontational kind of person and I'm a
24:45journalist so I'm kind of used to kind
24:48of confrontational style of interviewing
24:50not that I particularly enjoy doing it
24:51that way myself but like I did come away
24:56thinking you didn't maybe ask some hard
24:58questions - Pauly Lam but it that but I
25:01got the sense that was your interviewing
25:02style you didn't really ask but you
25:04didn't really put anyone on the spot on
25:05either side and I but I guess that was
25:09and I know now that you weren't even
25:11sure like why you were gathering the
25:13interview you haven't really made up
25:14your mind about what you thought about
25:15any of them you were still in that
25:17process well I think it's good to
25:19distinguish between a Barbara Walters
25:21type interview and a documentary and my
25:25history and documentary filmmaking has
25:27actually been flying the wall and so
25:29rarely if ever my my voice has ever
25:32heard in the film so the red pill was
25:34the first film I ever included myself in
25:37the film at all in including as
25:40narrator and also asking a few questions
25:42but very few questions that I asked my
25:46interview subjects were included in the
25:48final film itself so for people who
25:51criticize that I didn't ask
25:52harder-hitting questions to Paul Elam or
25:55to feminists or to big red eyed you know
25:59all the questions that I did ask them in
26:02my two to five hour long interviews work
26:05cut out except for maybe one question so
26:07to criticize the questions I asked is
26:10you know a hundred questions I asked
26:13them ones shown in the film I think you
26:17have to acknowledge the format of a
26:18documentary especially when it's more
26:21fly-on-the-wall but you know it's I did
26:26release a lot of the raw footage of the
26:28red pill movie so I really stood on
26:30YouTube for free for people to watch to
26:32see if I edit in anything out of context
26:34or try to manipulate the way someone was
26:36portrayed and I think that really helped
26:40in showing that I did not have creative
26:43manipulation in my editing style so if
26:46anyone is wondering if I was
26:48hard-hitting enough to appalled a limb
26:50or anyone else they can watch the raw
26:51files so yeah but as far as being more
26:56confrontational I think I was really
26:59confrontational in the raw files that's
27:00just a matter of if it made it into the
27:02final film because of all the that the
27:06people in the film the one that the
27:07people do keep coming back to his Paul
27:09Elin and there are some things that he
27:11said like I find really difficult online
27:13like I've got a lot of sympathy with
27:15with with the men's rights perspective
27:18that it is something that's not really
27:20seen or part of the conversation but
27:23when I see him saying things like I
27:24would definitely let off and I would
27:26never find someone guilty in a rape
27:28trial for example I just think this is
27:31kind of difficult to defend yeah and you
27:34know I could have I could have gone
27:36through all the cherry-pick comments
27:38that are used to against Paul Elam and a
27:42voice for men and I think that would be
27:47a film I wouldn't want to watch because
27:49it'd be really boring it I think it's a
27:51valid piece to put on on
27:53people are really interested although I
27:55think that people who need to hear it
27:56wouldn't sit through two hours of just
27:58listening to rebuttals that the
28:00cherry-pick comments because the context
28:02of what's Paul what Paul is saying about
28:04if you were on a rape trial he would
28:07vote to acquit the the male that's
28:09accused no matter the evidence presented
28:12that entire article that he wrote what
28:15was really interesting food for thought
28:18and I do recommend anyone who you know
28:22thinks that's a horrible comment read
28:23the entire article and and no doubt he's
28:27you know angry and in the way he's
28:30explaining his point and he's reacting
28:32from that anger and also trying to
28:34incite anger in the reader but you know
28:38I think the the criticisms of Paul
28:43whenever I watched feminist
28:45documentaries I don't see those
28:47criticisms of well what about when
28:49Gloria Steinem said this in 1995 or what
28:53about when Hillary Clinton said this in
28:551992 you know that the media doesn't
29:00take the same kind of just what's the
29:05word I'm looking for there they're not
29:08as thorough in looking at every comment
29:11that they've said that could be taken
29:14offensively and asking the filmmaker why
29:18didn't you say when Hillary Clinton said
29:21that the biggest victims of war are
29:23women and children who lose their
29:25husbands and sons you know that that
29:29does sound like a horrible soundbite and
29:32maybe that should be looked at in
29:34feminist documentaries so you know and
29:37then the the fish in bicycle comment by
29:39Gloria Steinem was quoting someone else
29:41but she repeated it so you know that
29:45there was a hashtag kill all men on
29:48Twitter that was going around and being
29:50supported by feminist scholars and
29:52universities you know so I didn't bring
29:54up those in the red pill documentary and
29:57because if we if we just want to sound
29:59cherry-pick sound bites and analyze
30:02those we could have a ten hour
30:04that I think would be hard to sit
30:06through so I tried to make it more about
30:09the ideas and the issues and an
30:12interesting journey for the audience to
30:14go on and there is also this paradox of
30:17you being criticized by male journalists
30:21as a betrayal of of women which I've
30:27seen a few of my female friends who have
30:29a slightly different take on feminism
30:31are often accused by by men of letting
30:35themselves into either internalized
30:38misogyny or some kind of yeah this weird
30:42paradox of okay so as a man you are
30:44devaluing my experience as a woman by
30:46telling me that I'm that I've got the
30:48wrong views and it's that's this sort of
30:50weird paradox catch-22 that it seems
30:52that okay are you not doing exactly the
30:55thing that you're accusing me of doing
30:56by invalidating my experience as a woman
30:58yes yes I don't think I could put it
31:01better than that exactly yeah and you
31:05know I I have had a lot of you know
31:07experiences as a woman that I felt I was
31:09mistreated as a woman and that's why I
31:12became a feminist you know now 15 years
31:16ago so I you know a lot of feminists who
31:21would like to criticize me saying that I
31:23I've been in this bubble where I've only
31:25looked at the men's rights movement and
31:26I didn't look closely enough at feminism
31:28but I did I mean I was a feminist and
31:31never heard about the men's rights
31:32movement for ten years and that was the
31:34real iterator I read and the blog's I
31:35read but even the experiences I had
31:38before coming the coming of feminists I
31:40I know the struggles that women face
31:43absolutely you know more more than I
31:47think a lot of people would realize
31:49because I you know do try to maintain a
31:52level of privacy so yeah I mean for any
31:58male journalist to think that I
32:00I am betraying all women and that I am
32:04engaging and wrong think and and not you
32:11know believing women's stories or hey I
32:15don't
32:15no I yeah I I don't even know how to
32:19respond to people like that because um
32:24yeah I've looked through a lot so and do
32:27you ever ask yourself that question have
32:29I internalized misogyny how am i letting
32:31letting my sisters down any of that hmm
32:35I let my sisters down well one of the
32:42one of the hardest parts about releasing
32:45the film was I felt a loss of sisterhood
32:49and you know I'm not a men's rights
32:52activist and of the women I've met in
32:55the men's rights movement I don't feel
32:57like I'm a part of a sisterhood so I
33:01haven't found this sisterhood since
33:04taking away the label feminists from
33:07myself I I don't feel like I fit into
33:10any kind of sisterhood group now you
33:13know I met some women and a lot of them
33:15would call themselves egalitarian or
33:17equalist or humanists and I think I am
33:19close to the way they think but but
33:23there's not the same kind of camaraderie
33:24that I experienced in feminism and I
33:27don't think I let the sisterhood down
33:30because I think there are plenty of
33:32people who are fighting for valid
33:34women's rights you know sex trafficking
33:37and maternity leaves and you know a lot
33:39of issues that I do want to see address
33:41and people are talking about them and
33:43having conferences for them so I know
33:45that work is being done and I'm not
33:47preventing that work from being done but
33:51you know I think in the way that I am
33:55helping the sisterhood is possibly in
33:58relationships I think the women who have
34:01watched the red pill movie who were self
34:03identifying feminists have really
34:05benefited from opening their eyes to
34:07men's issues and seeing their own male
34:09relationships in new light and so you
34:14know I think I have done a lot for women
34:15another criticism that people have of
34:17the film is sort of why are you showing
34:19all of these angry guys you know that's
34:21why a lot of feminists become
34:22as they've had some personal experience
34:25that enrages them and possibly
34:28rightfully so you know there's I think
34:31when people are really involved in
34:34gender politics or a movement on any
34:36side of the fence
34:37usually it's it's coming from a very
34:39personal place maybe even a place that
34:42it's too hard for them to talk about and
34:44discuss so all you're seeing is the the
34:47bubbles on the surface of what's boiling
34:50underneath and you know I think to write
34:55off activists as just angry whiners or
35:00you know crybabies or ferment so it's
35:03activists that they need a man up or
35:04something like that you know it actually
35:07just kind of justifies what or it
35:11validates and supports what they're
35:13saying is that we we do have this
35:15resistance to having compassion for men
35:18and men's issues and you know even right
35:24now the men's rights movement is
35:25debating whether they should take men's
35:28rights out of their title and because
35:30it's been smeared so much in the media
35:33that there and the hearing men's rights
35:36makes people scoff and laugh and and so
35:40they're wondering should we rebrand it
35:41as a gender equality movement or
35:43something like that and I think that's
35:45very telling as well that just even
35:48having the word men in a men's group or
35:52a men's forum or any any kind of
35:55organization with the word men in it is
35:58already at a disadvantage and is open to
36:02you know being fired at and so you know
36:07I think that's worth looking into and
36:10thinking about that why why is our
36:14society so willing to make money mend
36:17the butt of all jokes and that's
36:19acceptable and you know for truly for
36:22gender equality shouldn't we care about
36:25all genders the me2 moment happened very
36:28soon after releasing the film what did
36:30you personally make of that
36:32oh well the me to movement did you post
36:35me too we know I didn't I think I think
36:45it's good that the movement started if
36:50it helps a lot of women open up about
36:54their their story and and their issues
36:57and feel more accepted and embraced and
37:01speaking about those stories with their
37:03friends or family I think the danger of
37:08the movement is in the language and
37:11identifying only female victims and male
37:14perpetrators and when there have been
37:17people have come forward wanting to
37:19participate in the hashtag me to
37:21movement as a male victim or accusing a
37:25female perpetrator I think you know
37:29there's been a lot of disappointing you
37:34know reactions to that where they are
37:35not openly embraced and and given the
37:37same kind of treatment as a female
37:39victim with a male perpetrator is given
37:41so I think you know just discussing
37:47these issues is really important and I
37:49have you know sexual assault and
37:52harassment was definitely one of the
37:53issues that made me a feminist so I have
37:56a big soft spot for that issue and even
38:00my first documentary called daddy I do
38:01about sex education largely talked about
38:05sexual assault and abuse and rape and
38:08you know these horrible stories that I
38:11know have been going on far longer than
38:14the me to movement has come out so you
38:17know I know it's prevalent and it sort
38:21of increasingly feels like the culture
38:23at large is a kind of dysfunctional
38:26relationship between men and women like
38:29through the me to movement of times art
38:31movement so that certainly the Trump
38:34Hillary election just looked like it
38:35kind of yeah these gender dynamics were
38:38playing out on the wider stage so my my
38:43question is what does the space on the
38:45other side of that look like
38:46and in a way what I guess we talked
38:49about this is Warren Farrell and mine to
38:51be with him like what seems to be needed
38:54as a kind of one's like relationship
38:55counseling on a on a wife cultural scale
38:58like how do how do you resolve this
39:00debate do you have a sense of what the
39:02space on the other side of these this
39:05dynamic looks like I think the best way
39:09for me to explain my view on that is to
39:12bring it down to a very small experience
39:16which is my relationship with my now
39:19husband over about four weeks we've been
39:22together seven years and the last five
39:26years I've been working on the red pill
39:27movie so he's seen me through quite a
39:30transition what really worked for our
39:35relationship was the first two years of
39:39our relationship I was very much in the
39:41feminist mindset and I did and I'm not
39:45saying this is all feminists and I'm not
39:47trying to you know put down feminists by
39:51saying what kind of feminist I was but I
39:54did most of the talking and he did most
39:56the listening and my moods really set
40:01the stage for how home life was going to
40:04be so if I was happy as I say happy wife
40:09happy life that was pretty much the case
40:11I I did the complaining and he did the
40:13resolving and I had a lot to complain
40:16about and mostly it was housework and
40:18what I thought were roles put on me by
40:23the patriarchy expected gender roles of
40:26doing the dishes in the laundry and
40:28cleaning even though we're both working
40:30roughly the same amount hours I may work
40:32at eight-hour day and he would work on
40:3411 or 12 hour a day but we get home and
40:36and it was I thought expected that I
40:40would have dinner ready in the house
40:41clean and I really resented that but he
40:45was also paying most of the bills
40:47because he did make more money and I saw
40:49that as another effect of the patriarchy
40:52and
40:53you know I did believe in the pay gap as
40:55being discrimination against women at
40:57the time I no longer believe that to be
40:59you know the short story of that but
41:03then I started making the red pill movie
41:06and a lot changed with that not only
41:10starting to hear men's issues and
41:12realizing all the ways that I have
41:14privilege as a woman a white woman in
41:16today's society but also seeing all the
41:20ways that men really are disadvantaged
41:23how would you explain that that you the
41:25privilege that you have as a white woman
41:27cuz that what some people won't
41:28understand what you mean by that or will
41:29react against it I well certainly if we
41:33had children I have I would have a lot
41:36of advantages there especially if you
41:39were going through a divorce but also
41:41social reactions if I were to take my
41:46kids to the playground alone there's no
41:48real question about you know me being on
41:50my phone or taking photos of them and
41:53walking along with them but if a man
41:56were to take his kids to the to the park
41:58and be taking photos of them on his
42:01phone there could be and there have been
42:03police called on fathers doing that
42:06let's say yeah in the dating world
42:08there's a lot of advantages you know I
42:11mean Warren throw maybe talk to you a
42:13bit about that but that men still have
42:16the risk of approaching and hitting on
42:20women for the potential of a date
42:22whereas women are I have to say yes or
42:25no and get that privilege and and I when
42:28I started to think would I rather be in
42:31the position of having to approach
42:32someone for a potential relationship
42:34versus be approached I would rather be
42:37approached and and it does feel like the
42:39power position to just say yes or no I
42:42mean if you're a royalty that would be
42:44the position you're sitting in not
42:46trying to plead your case and show your
42:48resume so I started to see that meant
42:54that I really do have a lot of issues
42:56that I never thought about before
42:57whether their rights or just societal
43:01and expectations on them obviously
43:03masculinity is is a really great for a
43:07lot of people where they don't know what
43:09is good masculine anymore we hear toxic
43:12put next to the word masculine any more
43:14than we hear good put next to
43:16masculinity or or positive masculinity
43:18so I think guys have a really hard time
43:22right now and and even if I'm you know
43:26in a work space and I'm the only woman
43:28out of you know ten people I I do feel
43:32that power of that my voice is the
43:34female voice in the room and you know I
43:38even making this film the red pill movie
43:40I was probably heard and listened to
43:44more because I was a woman making this
43:46film rather than a white man trying to
43:48make it film about men's rights so you
43:52know that's the culture that we're
43:54living in today and and I'm grateful
43:55that you know my voice as a woman is
43:58valued and heard certainly and but yeah
44:03I do see a lot of issues that men are
44:05facing so so when I started to
44:06understand the issues men face and apply
44:10it to my own relationship I I started to
44:14wonder what my at the time boyfriend was
44:17going through with maybe sleeping five
44:20hours and I working 11 or 12 hours a day
44:23in a laborious job and paying the
44:28majority of the bills and having that
44:29responsibility that if we can't make
44:31rent it's really on his shoulders to
44:34figure that out so after making a red
44:39pill movie it was the first time in my
44:41life that I switched gender roles with
44:44him and not consciously and not
44:46intentionally but it just turned out
44:48that I had a lot more to do for work and
44:51I was it made more sense for him to help
44:55me with my work than for him to work
44:59harder and we support him going to work
45:01so we focused on my work and he became
45:05the the homemaker type of gender role
45:09where he would take care of the
45:10and do the cleaning in the laundry and
45:12dishes and I noticed a lot of things
45:16that I hadn't seen before such as I
45:19wouldn't notice when he did those kind
45:21of tasks around the house and he would
45:24start saying did you see I did the
45:25dishes and I'd look around the kitchen
45:27like oh yeah oh thanks okay but the
45:29whole day I was focused on paying bills
45:31and getting the finances in order and it
45:34was really stressful and I I realized
45:36how much I hated being the provider I
45:40realized how hard it was to be the
45:43breadwinner and how stressful was and
45:46you know you are thinking months ahead
45:48and what is the financial plan whereas
45:51you know back when I didn't have to
45:53worry about the finances I was feeling
45:56underappreciated for for cooking the
45:58dinners but you know going to into both
46:02roles now I see that that both really
46:05have a lot to be stressed about and
46:08worried about and and both really just
46:09want to be appreciated by the other and
46:11recognized for their contributions to
46:13the household so long story short I
46:16think moving forward for the genders and
46:21for relationships is really trying to
46:23understand how the other person is
46:27walking in their own shoes and what
46:29they're going through and the struggles
46:31they face and the stresses they have
46:33day-to-day and the contributions they do
46:36make and you know that's another thing
46:38is I've I now see so all the sacrifices
46:43that men make for our society whether
46:46it's the road work and the power lines
46:47or the soldiers you know I have family
46:50members in the military and and war
46:53makes me extremely uncomfortable so I
46:55usually just choose to never think about
46:56it but when I really do start to think
46:59about the way that they're putting their
47:01lives on the line for people they don't
47:02even know but a country they believe in
47:05it's really powerful and it you know
47:08when you really think about it you can't
47:09help but get teary-eyed because it's
47:12they are they are doing so much for our
47:15society and for their families and it's
47:19just you know it really saddens me that
47:21so many
47:22men do go unappreciated in and I hate
47:26that women went underappreciated when
47:29they were you know the 50s housewife but
47:33I think we've changed positively in a
47:35new direction for women and I would like
47:37to see that happen for men as well yeah
47:39I guess for me it's that a space needs
47:42to be opened up that we we do listen to
47:44each other that and what you were doing
47:47with that with the film was showing
47:49there is another side to this and this
47:51is the same journey I guess that Warren
47:52Farrell went on that he was a big player
47:56in the in the women's liberation
47:58movement in the 70s and then started at
48:00the same time setting up men's groups
48:02and saying and then the stories he heard
48:04and there kind of turned him on to
48:07realizing wow there are some stories
48:08that are not being heard men's issues
48:10with custody and wanted to be there for
48:12their children and not being allowed to
48:13be and all of these sort of things
48:15and but it was when he was trying to
48:17bring those stories into into the what
48:20was then the women's moving the same
48:21look there are these stories they're not
48:23being heard as well
48:24suddenly they weren't interested he was
48:27sort of pushed out so I guess for me
48:29it's like in any dysfunctional
48:31relationship the only solution is to
48:34hear both sides of the story and have a
48:36dialogue between those two definitely
48:39and you know I think when I was a
48:43feminist the fear was that if you start
48:46giving credit to the men's rights
48:49movement or men's issues that somehow
48:51your issues are gonna be put on the back
48:53burner or that you're no longer gonna be
48:55cared about our funding is no longer
48:57even coming your way for resources and
48:59that that was a big fear of mine you
49:02know I think there is some debate about
49:04whether or not this is a zero-sum game a
49:06lot of people in the men's rights
49:08movement say it's not a zero-sum game
49:09compassion it's not a zero-sum game but
49:13then you can make the argument that
49:14there there is an allotted amount of
49:17finances towards you know any kind of
49:21social issue and if we are going to care
49:25and talk about men's issues and try to
49:28find ways to help them which may need a
49:29lot of funding where's that money going
49:32to come from
49:32so it's not an easy thing and I think
49:37there that's why there is so much
49:38resistance to the men's rights argument
49:41is fear over funding and and time to
49:47care about these issues and err time to
49:50talk about these issues and and also
49:54when you start realizing that men have
49:57so many issues of their own you can't
50:00really say it's it's one group an
50:02entirety that's oppressed by the other
50:05group now we're talking about we're all
50:07on this together we all have issues to
50:09care about if we're all if we all have
50:12issues is that going to just make them
50:15like there's a tie there is no game
50:18there is no race it's just a tie and now
50:21our are people not going to care about
50:23any of the issues because there's not an
50:25enemy with a victor I also as Paul Elam
50:30has shown that anger and polarization
50:33does drive people to to cover the issues
50:36and which is which is quite I guess
50:38disappointing in a way for me is that it
50:42does seem that it's a useful tactic to
50:45be able to drum up anger and response
50:47and reactivity yeah rather than creating
50:51a space for a genuine dialogue yeah and
50:54especially with social media and
50:56everything at the moment yeah and and
50:58the you know the best way to make a
51:00group organize and work together and
51:03have passion about their cause is to
51:06have a common enemy
51:07so if men's rights activists are not the
51:10enemy of feminists what is gonna be the
51:13enemy there needs to be something
51:14identified to keep that that machine
51:17running so maybe there is an an enemy
51:22that we can find that is that is
51:24preventing women from having equal
51:27rights and and I think that's the
51:28distinction that a lot of people need to
51:30look at when listening to feminist
51:33arguments is that equal rights or are
51:36they looking for ways women to have an
51:39advantage over men like in family court
51:42you know do we want shared custody
51:45or or feminist group really fighting for
51:48primary custody for the mother in all
51:49cases so if we're looking at equal
51:52rights and there's something preventing
51:54that from happening let's identify what
51:57is that thing but I don't think it's the
51:59men's rights movement preventing women
52:02from having equal rights you know as far
52:05as men's rights activist what's
52:07preventing men's rights activists from
52:09having equal rights you know and there's
52:12a lot of debate about could the word
52:15rights be used or is it just issues but
52:18there are rights that are being denied
52:21for men that women do have at least in
52:23the u.s. with genital integrity you know
52:26it is outlawed that a girl be
52:28circumcised but boys there is there is
52:30no limitation or restriction on that DNA
52:34testing should you as a person have the
52:37right to know that you are a father or
52:40that the child is in fact yours which
52:43are different story lines to know you
52:46have a child you know there are many
52:48women who get pregnant leave the state
52:50and never tell the father that he is in
52:52fact the father so should that be a
52:56right
52:56you know we've feminism never defined
52:58that as a right because they only looked
53:00at women's rights and that wasn't a part
53:03of the agenda but I would consider that
53:06a human right to know that you're a
53:08parent but only men have to deal with
53:10that problem
53:11so there are rights that are being
53:14tonight for men and who or what is
53:19preventing that from happening
53:20I think men's rights activists to do
53:24have a lot of valid points to make that
53:28feminism and the the mainstream view of
53:31gender politics is really the feminist
53:34ideology and they do have the most
53:36funding they do have you know a lot of
53:39people who become journalists or
53:42university professors are feminists are
53:46self identifying feminists or even self
53:49identifying radical feminists so those
53:52are positions of power in university in
53:55the media
53:56politicians so you know I think men's
54:00rights activists may have a valid point
54:03to make about that Cassie thank you very
54:04much thank you
54:06this film is part of a series from rebel
54:09wisdom on the subject of men and women
54:11including an interview with Warren
54:13Farrell we used to have a battle of the
54:15sexes that's been historical but now we
54:18no longer have a battle of the sexes we
54:21have a war in which only one side has
54:24shown up and with Hannah milling the
54:27creator of the viral film from women to
54:29men I am a woman
54:31[Music]
54:34who has been hurt by men I'm a woman who
54:40has hurt men who has heard men

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