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Motion Design as a Subscription Service? Austin Bauwens of Ravie Studio — Transcript

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0:00If there's someone like working at Apple
0:02or something like that, okay, and they
0:03see a budget like that, they're like,
0:04"There's no way I can trust what's going
0:06to come out of this if it only cost this
0:07much, you know?"
0:13If you follow motion design Twitter,
0:15you've probably encountered today's
0:17guest. Austin Bauwens is the co-founder
0:19of Ravi Studio in North Carolina and a
0:22bonafide motion design influencer. He's
0:24also 21 years old and running an
0:26eight-person studio, which is insanely
0:28impressive. In this chat, we dig into so
0:31much. Austin is a super interesting guy.
0:33We talk about how he started teaching
0:35himself to design when he was 12, how he
0:38dropped out of college two years early
0:39to focus on Ravi, the studio he was
0:41starting to build, and how he seemingly
0:44cracked the code of using social media
0:46to actually get client work. We also dig
0:48into a business model that Ravi tried
0:50out where they offered clients a
0:52subscription to motion design services,
0:55a crazy idea that's gotten more popular
0:57lately, especially in the world of web
0:59and product design. Austin is an
1:01incredibly sharp guy and an awesome
1:03example of the new generation of motion
1:06designers who are starting to make
1:07waves. It was an honor to chat with him,
1:09and I think you're going to love this
1:11episode. So, let's get to it. Austin, it
1:13is amazing to finally have you on the
1:15podcast. You've been like a a really
1:17long requested guest, so I'm glad to
1:18finally have you, and thanks for doing
1:20this. Oh, sweet, dude. I'm glad to be
1:22here and and just honored that people
1:24wanted to hear me chat.
1:25The first thing I want to ask you about,
1:26actually, is your age. I had no idea how
1:29young you were until you filled out like
1:30the pre-interview questionnaire, and you
1:32know, I and I say it as a compliment.
1:33Like, you know, you you've accomplished
1:35a lot, and you're you're pretty well
1:36known in the industry for someone who
1:38hasn't been in it for very long. And so,
1:40that's really impressive, but I'm
1:41curious, you know, like do you feel
1:44young in this industry? Do you feel like
1:46the young guy when you're talking to
1:47your clients and stuff? I did for a
1:48while. I mean, Ravi's been around for 3
1:51years-ish, but I started design when I
1:53was 12. Like, I mean, just as a hobby.
1:56So, back then, I'm like 14, DMing people
2:00on Twitter trying to get like small
2:01projects and stuff, and I'm just like,
2:02"Hey, yeah, I'm totally like 18 or
2:04something. It's fine." And so, now, it's
2:07a little bit easier now that I've had
2:08more meetings under my belt and those
2:10sorts of things. Like, client relation
2:11side, it's a lot easier. And I think
2:14it's funny.
2:15Um most of our clients also think that
2:18uh
2:18Noah and I are like 28, almost 30-ish.
2:22So, it's pretty well kept at this point.
2:25I mean, we're not like trying to hide
2:26our age or anything, but I think our
2:27mannerisms and stuff just hide it pretty
2:29well.
2:30Interesting. So, okay, so if you started
2:32when you were 12 and you're 21 now,
2:34correct?
2:34Yep. Okay, cool. So, you you just
2:37recently like were able to buy alcohol
2:39legally and you're running the studio
2:41for 3 years. That's amazing, man. So,
2:42okay, so you've technically almost been
2:44doing this for a decade professionally,
2:46which is really cool. So, I'd love to
2:47just kind of hear your story. Like, how
2:49did you start doing design? You know,
2:51like I remember, you know, getting like
2:53a cracked version of Photoshop when I
2:55was in high school and just like putting
2:56all the filters on everything and
2:57figuring out how it works. Um it it was
2:59a lot harder when when I was 12. So, I'm
3:0142. I'm I'm literally twice your age. It
3:03was a lot harder to like find out how to
3:05do stuff. There wasn't really tutorials
3:07back then. So, how did you get into
3:09this? I'd love to kind of hear the story
3:10of how you went from 12-year-old Austin
3:12to 21-year-old, you know, founder of
3:14Ravi Studio. I got you. So, you can
3:17thank my seventh-grade friend Matt. He
3:21started a a deodorant company, of all
3:24things. And you might wonder how like a
3:26seventh-grader can make deodorant, but
3:27you know, you got to do it. And he was
3:29getting super popular in school, and I
3:31was getting super jealous cuz this like
3:33business is being cool thing was like,
3:34"Oh, shoot, I got to have my thing." And
3:36so, I was like, "I'm going to start my
3:38own thing, and it's going to be making
3:39mice and keyboards somehow." But you
3:42find out that like between Texas history
3:44and biology class, that's kind of
3:45difficult. It kind of spiraled into just
3:48making templates online for people. I
3:50had like posted on a a Minecraft forum a
3:54long time ago cuz I was making gaming
3:55YouTube videos at the time, as you do.
3:58And I got a lot of people just willing
4:00to help out for for free. I mean, we're
4:01all just kind of volunteering to try
4:03this out, and we were originally going
4:05to make games after we decided tech
4:07wasn't for us. Uh but then, somebody on
4:09the team, uh I can't even remember their
4:11name, honestly, lived in Sweden, and
4:13they had some design sensibilities. So,
4:15they made like YouTube banner templates
4:17and those sorts of things. And he didn't
4:19show up to the Skype chat one day. So,
4:21since we had a new 99-cent order, I
4:23wasn't just going to let that sit. I'm
4:25like, "I'm rich. 99 cents, let's go."
4:27man. Yeah. And so, then I downloaded
4:29and just knocked it out, and the
4:32rest is kind of history. I just started
4:33making a bunch of like small-time
4:35projects, YouTube banners, profile
4:37pictures, you name it, for different
4:39social media creators, YouTube
4:41personalities, all that sort of stuff.
4:43And eventually,
4:45I got into animation just as a next
4:48step. I was seeing all these people make
4:49stream alerts and those sorts of things
4:50for gaming live stream graphics, and I
4:52was like, "Well, crap, I want to learn
4:54how to do that. That seems so fun." And
4:56not wanting to learn After Effects cuz I
4:58was terrified, I thought the easier way
5:01would be frame by frame, like, you know,
5:04little ants marching, you select your
5:06text in Photoshop or something, and just
5:07like
5:08take my brush, fill up a little piece,
5:10save that image, fill up another little
5:12piece, save that image, whatever. And I
5:13was like, "This is so much easier than
5:15learning After Effects, whatever." And
5:16it's not until I'm in my high school
5:18news program that my teacher's finally
5:21like, "Dude, you just got to take time
5:22to just try out After Effects, okay?"
5:24Cuz I'm doing the calendar
5:27segment on the show, and so it's like
5:291,800 frames a week or something. I'm
5:31just sitting there by hand trying to
5:32just knock the frames out and stuff. And
5:35then, I think it was I mean, as soon as
5:37I found the power of After Effects, I
5:39was just immediately like, "Yeah, why
5:41was I using After Effects? Like, how
5:42what at what age were you? I it's I'd
5:45say it's like senior year of high
5:46school. I was probably 17 at that point.
5:50And so, only like 4 years ago, maybe
5:52almost 5 years now.
5:53But yeah, it's from there, I actually
5:56started using After Effects. I started
5:58posting some of the work I was doing for
5:59that high school news program on
6:01Twitter, and just fell into this world
6:04of motion design, doing a lot of
6:05freelance projects at first. Let let me
6:08pull you back a little bit. So, you
6:09you mentioned something I'm actually
6:10pretty curious about. So, like when when
6:12I was starting out,
6:13Yeah. there was this, you know, like the
6:15cool thing that everyone was doing that
6:16led them into motion design. A lot of
6:17times, it was like making skateboarding
6:20videos. So, that was a big thing, and
6:21and that really influenced the aesthetic
6:24of what, you know, sort of like early
6:26motion graphics artists, as we called
6:28them back then, were doing. And you
6:30know, I I have kids, so I have like a
6:3113-year-old, I have an 11-year-old, and
6:33an 8-year-old son who's obsessed. He's
6:35obsessed with Minecraft, and he watches
6:37YouTube all day long and loves watching
6:39Minecraft videos. And I'm blown away by
6:43some of the production value that people
6:45will put into like music videos about
6:47Minecraft and stuff like that. And so,
6:49you know, you're telling me about, you
6:50know, like you wanted to make streaming
6:53animations, you know, these these sort
6:54of, you know, live stream notifications,
6:56and you're you're playing Minecraft, and
6:58you're running sort of like a
6:59Minecraft-ish design sort of thing.
7:01Like, what were your
7:03Does that influence the work you're
7:04doing now as a professional running a
7:06studio? I think so. And it's funny that
7:09one of our team members is from this is
7:11from that community now, actually. But
7:14there was graphic designers in the
7:16gaming space, and they'd handle all of
7:18the banners and profile photos and those
7:20sorts of things. Um but then, there were
7:22the intro makers, okay? And those were
7:25like the hot commodity, okay? Everybody
7:28wanted a cool like a Minecraft intro to
7:30put on their YouTube channel with their
7:32player skin in there and their name and
7:33whatever. And there was just tons of
7:35people out there that were just doing it
7:36for free, just practicing their skill
7:37sets, and
7:39I was just super jealous. Like, I was
7:41out there trying to be like, "Can you
7:42make me an intro still? Like, I have no
7:43idea how to do this, but I can do some
7:44design stuff." And I think that a lot of
7:48the work that Ravi is known for at this
7:51point is just like snappy mograph is
7:52what I hear a lot from other studio
7:54owners and things. And I think a lot of
7:55that comes from the same sort of motion
7:58design principles that were happening,
7:59unbeknownst to me, with these Minecraft
8:01intros. I mean, it's like, boom, bang,
8:03got to get to the point pretty quick.
8:05It's like gaming focused, there's lots
8:07of impact. And so, yeah, I think at
8:09least from my design sensibilities and
8:11things, there's still a lot of that
8:13that's rooted there. That's really cool.
8:15And how did you actually go about
8:17learning After Effects? I mean, if it
8:18was only 4 years ago, you could have
8:20taken a school motion class.
8:22Yeah, but I'm always curious because I
8:23mean, you know, I I I watched some of
8:25your videos that you put on social
8:26media, those little mini tutorials, and
8:28and other people on your team are doing
8:30that, too, and they're really, really
8:31good. And the work you guys do is
8:33amazing. I mean, it's designed really
8:35well, the animation's awesome. So, where
8:37did that come from? I mean, 4 years is
8:38not a long time animating. So, how did
8:41you get those skills? How much of what
8:43am I I'm looking at on your website is
8:44you versus the rest of your team? So,
8:47now, the website that we've updated in
8:48like the past couple weeks is the whole
8:51team. There might be a video on there
8:53that is still just Noah and I, but the
8:55vast majority of it is the whole team. I
8:57spent a lot of time in in branding and
8:58static graphics to start with. Okay, so
9:00like composition and a lot of the design
9:02principles, I'd already kind of just had
9:04down because of just, you know, you put
9:06shapes on a page so many times, it's
9:08just kind of instinctual after a certain
9:09point.
9:10Animation-wise,
9:12I had already been doing some frame by
9:14frame, like I said. So, like that gave
9:16me some idea of like I didn't have a
9:18graph or anything, but I was actively
9:19like already thinking about the
9:21acceleration and the easing without
9:22knowing the terminology. So, when I had
9:25been told about After Effects, I had
9:27found all these I found all the buttons
9:29and the graphs and other things, and I
9:30made it my mission that like every day
9:31in class, if we didn't have an
9:33assignment, I was going through every
9:35single tab and every effect, and I would
9:37just put it on a solid and try it and
9:39just see what it did. Until like it just
9:40building up that library, sort of just
9:42experimenting and messing around with
9:44it. And then, of course, YouTube
9:46tutorials. You know, I mean, I think a
9:48lot of tutorials I sort of struggle with
9:50if it's really prescriptive, like put in
9:52these values and these numbers because
9:54it's so hard to be like, "Okay, well,
9:56now I know how to do that specific
9:57sequence, but like what do I do from
9:59there? Yeah. So, there was this one
10:01tutorial I watched
10:03that I think it's by this guy called Tip
10:05Tut. They had like a couple free videos,
10:07and what I loved at the start of the
10:09video was that he said, "I'm not going
10:11to give you any values. I'm not going to
10:12show you any of the stuff that I'm
10:13doing. I'm just going to be like in the
10:15panels. I'll make some things, but I'm
10:16not going to be like belaboring over the
10:18specific settings or anything like
10:19that." And what that forced me to do was
10:21have to experiment and mess with the
10:23things myself to sort of get what I felt
10:26worked. And so, you know, I sort of took
10:28that mindset and just tried to get
10:30through every element of After Effects
10:32until I felt like I was solid enough at
10:35it. And then I was like, all right, let
10:36me take those skills and try and make
10:37some things, you know?
10:38Yeah, that's interesting. So, I I
10:39noticed like looking at especially some
10:42of the you know, the quick like you
10:44know, three, four, five-hour things that
10:45that you post on social media. There are
10:48a lot of like glows and blurs and and
10:51you know, effects on it. And you know,
10:53there was kind of a thing for a few
10:55years like I guess a trend of animators
10:57trying not to use many effects.
10:58Mhm. You know, like you know, the guy
11:00that that teaches our our beginner After
11:02Effects class, his name is Noel. Mhm.
11:04You know, and he's he's a little bit
11:05older than me, but he lives in New York
11:06City, and he's an amazing animator. But
11:08he doesn't really use effects very
11:10often. Like it's pretty rare. He'll use
11:11like like a few. And but the work you're
11:13doing, I mean, I could see like you
11:15know, some deep glow and all kinds of
11:16stuff on
11:17Got to do it. So so I I definitely like
11:18I I feel that influence. So, that's
11:20interesting that you Do you have any
11:22formal animation training or did you
11:24really just kind of figure it out Yeah.
11:27It's just a trial and error process,
11:28honestly. I went to college for I mean,
11:31two years and then decided to drop out,
11:33but that was for graphic design cuz at
11:34that point I still I was dead set. I'm
11:36like, all right, I've sold so many logos
11:38at this point. This is what I'm going to
11:39be doing forever, whatever. And so I I
11:41thought the graphic design was just
11:42going to be my thing, but at the point
11:44where I decided to leave school, I was I
11:47mean, I'd already been animating for a
11:48little while. So, I just kept on
11:50experimenting and sort of just gut
11:52instinct has taken me in good places is
11:55I guess, luckily. Yeah, that's good. So,
11:57you you mentioned in the pre-interview,
11:59I I asked you know, I ask every guest
12:01like what's one of the biggest mistakes
12:02you've ever made, and you said not
12:03dropping out of college sooner. So.
12:06Which like that you know, and it's
12:07funny. I mean, you know, I I I mentioned
12:08I have a a 13-year-old daughter, and
12:10she'll be college age in five years. And
12:12like I feel totally differently about
12:14college than I did growing up and then
12:16most of my friends with kids do. So, I'm
12:18curious, you know, as someone who like
12:20just left college pretty recently
12:22Mhm. and and dropped out, and now you're
12:24successful, right? And and I mean,
12:26you're you're successful in the field
12:27that I tell people you don't need to go
12:29to college for. You know, I beat that
12:30drum. So, talk talk to me about your
12:32college experience and what made you
12:33realize you didn't actually need to
12:34finish. Yeah.
12:36So, throughout all of primary school and
12:39and high school, I was very focused on
12:41grades. I mean, if if it wasn't A's, I
12:43was not happy with it, you know? And so
12:46it was instilled in me very early on
12:47that like college, like that's what
12:49we're doing. That's what we're here for.
12:50We're going to go get into school. And
12:52so grades were like super big focus, AP
12:54classes, whatever. All that a whole
12:56thing. And within that same mindset,
12:58when I decided I wanted to do graphic
13:00design as my major around like the
13:01beginning of my senior year of of high
13:03school, I went and toured a ton of
13:05different schools. I mean, my my parents
13:06were kind enough to take us on this like
13:08cross-country road trip and go look at
13:10like nine different schools. Nice. And
13:12so I I'd actually been swayed a lot by
13:14the dining halls. A lot of them.
13:16It wasn't really the programs as much.
13:18But eventually, I sort of like whittled
13:20the list down, and it really came down
13:22to the school's marketing. So,
13:25now I realize there's a lot of different
13:27places where schools can pay to have
13:29like their name listed as like top blank
13:31program and that sort of stuff. And so
13:34I thought I'm like, I'm right. I'm If
13:36I'm going to go to school, I'm going out
13:37of state. I'm going to the best graphic
13:38design program in the country.
13:40And I decided to go to NC State
13:43University.
13:44Part of the reason being a lot of other
13:46schools when I looked at their
13:47portfolios online were doing a lot of
13:49similar work that I was already doing in
13:51like their senior classes and things.
13:52So, I'm like, if I'm going to be doing
13:54the same thing, like what's really the
13:55point? But this one was talking about
13:56like VR and AR applications and maybe
13:58some more interactive things.
14:00And so I I'm coming from Houston, Texas.
14:02I'm going to Raleigh, North Carolina.
14:03I'm not going to know anybody there. And
14:05so I'm doing the Gen Z thing, and I'm
14:06like making group chats. I'm trying to
14:08find people that are in like the same
14:09program as me. And in doing that, I
14:11actually luckily found my co-founder
14:13Noah or would-be co-founder.
14:15But I was like super shy in high school,
14:18didn't know anybody. I just kind of kept
14:19to myself. But some of my work gets
14:21around at the school before I get there.
14:23And suddenly, I'm like walking on
14:24campus, and like people are verbally
14:26calling me like design guy, whatever the
14:28hell that means. Nice. Uh and so it's
14:30like a complete 180 in my social life.
14:32I've got a bunch of people who are like
14:34actually caring about the stuff I cared
14:36about my entire school experience. Cuz
14:38if I'm not in class, I'm I'm working on
14:40whatever studio I studio I was running
14:42at the time.
14:43And as a result, I was coming in with a
14:46lot more experience than I thought I had
14:48at the time. And you know, a lot of
14:51colleges have their first semester be
14:53this like all-rounded art course. And so
14:56I spent the first three months making a
14:58paper wearable costume. I mean, it
15:00looked ridiculous. I'm really bad at
15:02physical craft. It's just not my
15:04interest, and so the skill set's not
15:06there. Uh my professors would get mad at
15:08me because I was spending like more time
15:10on my presentation slides because I was
15:12like there for graphic design than my
15:14paper wearable costume.
15:15Yeah. And so I had this kind of rift
15:17early on. I was like, I don't know if
15:19like graphic design is the program for
15:21me or like what the issue is here, but I
15:23was feeling kind of funky about it. Noah
15:25and I had had made friends at this
15:26point. So, we're we're kind of feeling
15:28the same thing. But I decided to ride it
15:30out cuz I'm like, it's college, you
15:31know, I'm going to get my degree. These
15:32things happen. Maybe I'm just not
15:33adjusted to it yet. And so then I'm
15:35thinking
15:36a little more creatively. I'm like, all
15:38right, what if there's a way to
15:39potentially test out of some programs or
15:41something cuz this is a very regimented
15:43thing. I mean, you had like you had to
15:45do the all-rounded art course with a lot
15:48of exploratory things. Then you'd get to
15:50start your graphic design classes, which
15:52were really just either typography and
15:54print focused or modeling things to like
15:573D print and laser cut and stuff. It
15:59just wasn't making sense to me for the
16:01track I saw career-wise.
16:03And so it gets to a certain point where
16:06the school actually ends up deciding
16:08that they want to change the major in
16:09the middle of us being there, which is
16:10like, okay, how are we going to deal
16:11with this?
16:12Where it was going to be much more
16:13experience design focused. So, we're
16:15talking like wayfinding systems, museum
16:17exhibits, and those sorts of things. And
16:19I'm like, that's not really what I'm
16:20here for.
16:22And so a lot of other students were
16:23understandably concerned about that as
16:25well.
16:26But Noah and I were really the only ones
16:27that were freelancing out of the student
16:28body. And I mean, we're only sophomores
16:30at that point still. But we're meeting
16:32with alumni. They're saying like, man, I
16:34got out of school and like I'm just not
16:36able to find jobs in this. I'm having to
16:37like relearn everything about the field
16:39once I get out into like the real world.
16:41I'm like, oh shoot, this is rough.
16:43So then as you do,
16:45we started a like accountability group
16:47essentially so that we could bring in
16:49people that I was meeting at my
16:51internship at the time and that we just
16:52met in the field to sort of help out our
16:55our classmates and uh get advice and do
16:57Q&A's and that sort of stuff. And then
16:59at the same time, we were like, oh crap,
17:01they're going to change the major.
17:03I don't know how we feel about this. So,
17:05we all decided to write up a potential
17:08curriculum suggestion here. And uh
17:10traditional academia did not take too
17:12kindly to that. We had this town hall
17:14talk about it. I mean, it was like a
17:16third of the whole student body of
17:17graphic design signed on to this thing
17:19being like, hey, we got to figure
17:20something out here or we're going to
17:21have to leave.
17:23And the school was real crafty. They
17:26like waited until nobody could get
17:28tuition refunds before they talked with
17:30us about it. And then when they did talk
17:31to us about it, we were like scoffed at
17:33for our concerns and stuff. I mean, it
17:35was it was abysmal. And so we were like,
17:37all right, nothing's changing. We
17:38thought they kicked our asses handily.
17:40And then when we thought it was over,
17:42we're like, all right, we're going to
17:43Noah and I are going to drop out. We've
17:44already been running Review for a little
17:45bit at this point. The school sends out
17:48a letter to the whole graphic design
17:50student body.
17:51Essentially just trying to give a bunch
17:52of like reasoning on why they want to
17:54change the program and whatever. And
17:56keeping in mind Noah and I are really
17:57the only ones freelancing in the program
17:59at this point, they have this little
18:01bottom section, the very bottom of the
18:03email. I mean, it's like the founder of
18:04the program sending this thing out.
18:06And I don't remember the exact quote.
18:09However, they said essentially,
18:12"It seems to us that some beginning
18:15petitioners are using their freelance
18:17level experience to like justify changes
18:19in the curriculum and will have little
18:21to no upward mobility in their entire
18:23career." And it was like, oh.
18:25All right. So, we definitely weren't
18:28welcome there. But we just had to kind
18:30of wait it out until the end of the
18:32semester to just, you know, move on
18:34after that point. But it, you know, it
18:36gives a good like hey, here's what they
18:40said we couldn't do it, and now here we
18:41are type thing, I guess. It's a good
18:43motivator, you know?
18:44Yeah. You know, you've got you've got a
18:45pretty big, you know, social media
18:47following, and I I think it's I think
18:48it's going to grow a lot. So, I'm hoping
18:50that there's a lot of artists your age,
18:53maybe even a little bit Yeah, yeah.
18:54listening to this. And you know, your
18:56your your answer is interesting because
18:58I was I was expecting the first part,
19:00which was you get there and you realize,
19:02wait, what I'm learning isn't actually
19:05really applicable Yeah. in a lot of
19:07cases to what I'm doing. And and the
19:08only reason you knew that was cuz you
19:09were doing work
19:10Right.
19:11already. Right? And I I've heard you say
19:13this before in like a video you posted
19:15once. It was like, look, you know, going
19:17to school, taking classes, those can be
19:19useful things if you need the structure
19:21and you have no idea where to begin.
19:22Mhm. But the fastest way to learn is to
19:24actually just jump in and start doing
19:25it. That's what you were doing. I didn't
19:27expect to hear the politics part of it,
19:29which you know, I I I I taught at a
19:31school for one year. So, I have I have
19:32some experience with that. Um but it's
19:34gnarly, man. And I'm sure the tuition
19:36was super high, and you were out of
19:37state. So,
19:38Yeah. Um you know, I I I got to imagine
19:40if you took out loans, you're still
19:41paying those back. Wild experience, man.
19:44Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay. Um well,
19:46interesting. Well, I I brought it up
19:47because, you know, I think that's still
19:49a big question to a lot of people who
19:51you know, I I think it's
19:53it's a lot easier now to look around as
19:55a young person and see that you can have
19:57a career being an artist, designer,
19:59animator, stuff like that. You know,
20:01when I was growing up, it wasn't all
20:03that clear that that was going to be
20:05possible. And I certainly wasn't clear
20:07that you can actually like make money
20:08doing it.
20:09So, I hope people are listening and and
20:11they hear about your experience and it
20:13causes them to think a little bit before
20:14they just, you know, sign that sign that
20:17Sallie Mae form and take on, you know, 2
20:20to 300K debt.
20:22Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't have to be that
20:23way. And I think my favorite way to
20:25think about it now
20:27is I'm just terrified at the thought
20:29that there's like a version of me that,
20:32I mean, I would have graduated this year
20:33in like May of this year that would have
20:35had to learn all of the things we've
20:37learned in the past 2 years with like no
20:39strings attached just doing Rev starting
20:41now. Like that
20:42Yeah. Woo. Woof. I feel really glad that
20:45I and kind of lucky that it feels like I
20:46have a head start a little bit in that
20:48aspect.
20:48Yeah. Well, so let me ask you this, too.
20:50I mean, you know, starting it doesn't
20:52matter. You start a studio, start any
20:53kind of business, it's really hard. And,
20:56you know, the the the hardest hump to
20:57get over is like getting enough traction
21:00where the thing makes enough money to
21:02actually like stand up, right? And, you
21:04know, I was lucky when I started School
21:07of Motion that I had the ability to
21:09freelance because School of Motion made
21:11no money for years. You know,
21:14being 21 it you may and you may
21:16disagree, but I mean, to me it's a lot
21:18easier to afford life as a 21-year-old.
21:21I assume you're not married yet, you
21:22know, versus if I if you tried to do
21:25that after a few years and maybe you
21:26were married, maybe you had a kid
21:27already, maybe you had a mortgage, it
21:29becomes almost impossible, you know,
21:31without without basically not sleeping.
21:33So, I don't know. I I I really admire
21:34what you did. I mean, I think that, you
21:36know, it's a good model for the way
21:39creatives should approach their career
21:40these days. I don't think that
21:42I really don't think a degree in design
21:45or animation means much anymore. And I
21:47know I'll probably get blasted for that,
21:48but go go ahead. Give me give it to me.
21:49Give me your YouTube comments,
21:50Let's go. Bring out the pitchforks.
21:51Yeah, bring it on. So, okay. So, let's
21:53get into to to Rev a little bit. So, you
21:56were doing it in school. Yep. And the
21:59you know, the most obvious kind of
22:00unique thing about Rev to me, aside from
22:02the fact that you're 21 and you founded
22:04it with someone I assume is also the
22:06same age, Yeah. you you have a big focus
22:09on creating content.
22:11And, you know, I know a lot of studio
22:13owners who have like directors of
22:14business development that are literally
22:16like outbound sales experts, right? And
22:18they're using salesforce and they're
22:20doing all the things you traditionally
22:21do.
22:22You know, you come from the the
22:24generation where you've probably grown
22:26up online most of your life, if not your
22:28entire life, right? So, I'm curious like
22:30did that start in college like making
22:32videos, posting, trying to build a
22:33following? Like when did that start and
22:36when did you start to incorporate that
22:38into Rev? I think we were just sort of
22:42misguided for a little while. We had the
22:44rose-colored glasses of like, oh, look
22:47at this motion design industry. Like the
22:49way to do this is this specific path.
22:51And that path looked like
22:53make amazing client work that you can
22:56then post and have other motion
22:57designers appreciate and that sort of
22:59stuff. But in childhood, I mean, like I
23:00said, I'd I loved making Minecraft
23:02YouTube videos. I just liked making fun
23:05content. But there was some point where
23:08the business part of me, whatever I
23:10expected a business to look like and
23:11what that meant to be a real business,
23:13took that over and was like, no, you
23:15have to do it this way. And so, for a
23:17while we're like trying to get clients
23:19that will make us look good rather than
23:21the focus should be like making good
23:23stuff for clients regardless of who it
23:25is, you know? And of course, that has
23:27other ramifications of like if every
23:29project that you're doing is just a like
23:32this cloud of but it has to be really
23:34good so I can put it on my portfolio.
23:36That's going to make for some awful
23:37experiences for the client, you know?
23:39But anyway, at some point the business
23:41was at a real low, both financially and
23:45from a creative a creative perspective.
23:47And this is probably like at the end of
23:49our
23:50at the end of our real first year. And I
23:54was just so tired of the same old
23:56corporate video that we were getting
23:58made every single time. Everything was
24:00just super slow. And I was feeling that
24:03like Minecraft intro maker in me wanting
24:06to come back out and just like, can I
24:07just make some stuff that feels punchy
24:09and fast, you know?
24:11And I did that and and posted to our
24:13like 700 followers at the time I made
24:15this fun little like colorful grid that
24:17moves around or something. And we would
24:19usually get, I mean, like a couple
24:21hundred views on something on Instagram.
24:23And this thing got like 1,500 overnight
24:26or something like that. I was like,
24:27okay, that's weird cuz I wasn't posting
24:29it intending on it getting the audience.
24:30I was just like, hey, I I just made this
24:32thing, you know?
24:33Because the only things I thought about,
24:35oh, I want to make sure we get views is
24:36posting a client project, you know?
24:38And so then I was like, all right, I'm
24:39going to do this again. I'll I'll make
24:41another one next week, whatever. And
24:42then I made another one. People loved
24:43that one even more. And I was like, holy
24:45crap. Wait, we're getting like leads
24:46from this, too? This is crazy. Like
24:48people are just coming in just saying
24:49like, do your thing. Like we just want
24:50you to make your video for us. And it's
24:52like, whoa, this is a crazy thing. Like
24:54I have a big red sales button I can hit
24:56every week now. Like that feels insane.
24:58And so, it's at that point that we
24:59really I sort of got brought back. I was
25:01like, hold on a second. I just did this
25:03because I thought it'd be fun. Like this
25:05is just coming from a place of passion
25:06and interest. And as a result, I not
25:08only could make things that I just felt
25:10captivated by, but also I had the energy
25:13to come back to it week after week after
25:15week and do it, not because I felt like
25:18I had to make a sale, but because I was
25:19still enjoying it, you know? And it's at
25:21that point we're really like, oh my god.
25:23Like we'd run some paid ad campaigns on
25:24Google and other things like that before
25:26and it's just like sinking money into
25:28these things. But then you post on
25:30organic social and if you can find
25:32something that works for you, it's just
25:33like a night and day difference in your
25:34business. I mean, it was a complete
25:36turnaround. So, what kind of clients,
25:38you know, if you're posting
25:39some really interesting animation
25:41exercise that you just did or even if
25:43it's even if it's like an internal
25:45project. It's you and your co-founder
25:46and and maybe I don't know if you had
25:47employees at the time. And you just
25:49posted right? And there's no logo at the
25:50end. It's not for anything. It just
25:52looks cool. What kind of clients is that
25:54attracting? So, it's actually a pretty
25:57mixed bag. I would have thought
25:58initially it would have just been other
26:00studios or something like that. But we
26:02actually got a lot of larger agencies
26:04that would reach out as well as just
26:05direct to brand. Like I mean, we had a
26:07we've always had a type form on our
26:08website. And sure, it'd be people from
26:10like some local agencies that we knew or
26:12those sorts of things that would show
26:13up. But then you get like
26:15[email protected] and I'm like,
26:16why is this giant real estate company
26:18showing up in our contact form just like
26:21offhand, you know? And it the thing was
26:24it wasn't pushing it from an ad
26:26perspective. It was making it just
26:28purely from an artistic standpoint. So,
26:30what that meant was realistically
26:32anybody could enjoy that.
26:34And if it gets pushed well enough and
26:35has enough views, then you could reach
26:37people that are sure just like your
26:39average everyday person that might not
26:41be able to hire us or something, but you
26:43could also reach a creative director
26:44somewhere. And it just kind of gets
26:46passed around, you know? That's
26:48interesting. Now, did you find that as
26:50you did that, your following grew? Cuz
26:52then, you know, people are now aware of
26:54you, which means each post you make gets
26:56more reach. So, now there's even more
26:58leads. Did Did it work that way? Was
27:00there sort of a flywheel effect to it?
27:01It really did. It was like an infinite
27:03energy machine. It was kind of wild. I
27:06mean,
27:06I think when I posted the first ones we
27:10I might have had like around 700 to
27:121,000 followers on Instagram or
27:14something. And I mean, like a month from
27:15then I had 10,000. And it was just like,
27:18where did this come from? And then a
27:19month after that it's up to like 28 or
27:21something like that. And I mean, I wish
27:23I could reach the views that one of our
27:24video editors is able to get on his
27:26stuff. But I mean, for motion design
27:27content, we were getting like 150,
27:29200,000 views a a post for like a solid
27:33month straight. And it was just wild cuz
27:35that's so many eyeballs just over and
27:37over again on that stuff. That's really
27:39interesting. Okay, so
27:41what did that do and and be as specific
27:43as you can. So, like for your business,
27:45right? Like before you're doing that,
27:48you know, how many jobs you getting?
27:49What kind of revenue is Rev doing? And
27:50then how did it grow year over year as
27:53you started, you know, implementing that
27:54strategy? So, we started in August of
27:572020, like right in the middle of the
27:58pandemic. And so, from August of 2020 up
28:01until December of that year, we might
28:03have made like $7,000. Like it really
28:05wasn't much. That's not a lot. No, it's
28:07really not. And then that that next year
28:09we had done 100,000 in revenue by the
28:12end of the year. And that was without
28:13any of the social media stuff. And then
28:152022 is when we start posting some the
28:18loops. And that year was 500,000 last
28:21year. And it was I mean,
28:24we went from having a project at a time
28:28that would last for maybe 2 months or
28:30something. And then you just kind of go
28:32on that cycle to every single week we
28:34were getting new leads in our inbox that
28:36were qualified, valuable leads to where
28:39we were working on like three projects
28:41at a time. And those would switch out
28:43every 2 months instead of one project
28:44every 2 months. And the the actual value
28:46is way higher. I mean, we were initially
28:48charging like sub-10K for projects. And
28:51then once that starts happening, I mean,
28:53we got up to like 30,000 average on
28:56those deals. I mean, they're still a lot
28:58of them are just explainer videos and
28:59they're kind of short. So, it wasn't
29:00like huge money makers like a package of
29:02assets or anything like that. But we
29:04could get there eventually, you know?
29:06Yeah. And so, how is 2023 looking cuz,
29:09you know, we're it's kind of a weird
29:10time right now. 2022, that's kind of
29:12when the the economic bubble that was
29:15inflated during COVID burst. And I think
29:17it's still kind of bursting in real
29:19time. So, how's this year been for you?
29:21So, we've already sold as much as we did
29:23last year. So, we're already looking at
29:25at the 500,000. Initially, if you would
29:28ask me middle of the year, early year, I
29:32would have said that we were looking to
29:33hit a million this year.
29:35I am still hopeful that that happens
29:36because the end of the year is usually a
29:38lottery for us. Like just a lot of work
29:40comes in. However, I am seeing across
29:42the board that that's not happening
29:43nearly as much even in Q4. So, I don't
29:47know. We might We'll still hit more than
29:48we did last year, but it might end up
29:50being around like 750 rather than a
29:53million. But even so, in a downturn,
29:55that's a huge win to me at that point,
29:57you know? Yeah, that's amazing. And how
29:59how big is your team right now? So,
30:01we're eight people now. Noah and I are
30:03co-founders, and everybody else is
30:05essentially contracted, but everybody's
30:07around all the time cuz we got
30:09That's great. So, you're right at the
30:10cusp, man. I mean, you know, eight
30:11people, I'm kind of doing like some
30:13rough math in my head. I mean, it's
30:15profitable. It's probably not like super
30:16over the top profitable yet, but but
30:18you're you're on track. Okay. And has
30:20that strategy worked as well this year?
30:23Are you seeing like any diminishing
30:24returns with it or anything? Well, so
30:27all right, there's Instagram loves to
30:29Instagram especially loves to give you a
30:31big boost, okay? And we've been able to
30:33replicate that pretty well. I mean, my
30:34co-founder Noah had a very similar
30:36journey this year that I had last year.
30:38However, it seems like and I don't know
30:40any actual statistics on this,
30:42you get up to like 25,000 followers or
30:44something, it'll give you a nice push,
30:45and then like the faucet turns off in
30:48some way. I don't know why. It can be
30:50you making the same content. You can be
30:52making stuff that you think is better.
30:54It's just a weird numbers game
30:56algorithmically on some of these things.
30:58But the thing is now that we were able
31:01to capitalize so well during that time.
31:03Like we weren't just riding the wave so
31:05much. We were trying to future-proof
31:06some things in terms of like building
31:07community and like really getting
31:09integrated with those connections we
31:10were making so that if that did happen
31:13and we were getting less of a return on
31:14social, it's not as big of a deal now
31:16cuz now we've got the thing that a lot
31:17of other people had and we didn't, which
31:18is a network, you know?
31:20And I would say like we're still not
31:21getting bad numbers by any means. I
31:23mean, it's we could post I could post
31:25anything on my personal and still get
31:28like 10,000 views or something minimum.
31:31But it's definitely not as potent as it
31:34was back then. We're not We're not in
31:36the big red sales button territory
31:38anymore, and that's made this year
31:40difficult in a lot of ways just in terms
31:41of trying to relearn how to be a sales
31:44person and not just like having a bunch
31:45of stuff coming in, you know? Yeah, so
31:47the thing that, you know,
31:49like like I've talked a lot about how I
31:52got work and and I coach other people on
31:53how to do it, mostly freelancers, but
31:55you know, I ran a studio for 4 years.
31:57And you know, the strategy that you're
31:59using primarily, the social media
32:01strategy, I've seen it work so well for
32:04certain people. I think, you know, you
32:06have to have like a certain caliber of
32:07work for that strategy to really work,
32:09and you guys definitely do. But I was
32:12I've always I've always been a little
32:13bit afraid of it because of what you're
32:15talking about. It's like when it works,
32:17it works. When it doesn't, it's hard to
32:20identify why it's not working. It's hard
32:22to know, is it is it us? Is our work not
32:24as good? Is there more competition? Did
32:26the algorithm change, right? So so that
32:28is interesting. I wanted to ask you
32:30this, too, because this is something
32:31that I kind of selfishly want to ask you
32:33this cuz I cuz I wonder about this. So
32:34like, you know, when we post certain
32:37things as School of Motion,
32:40it does okay. But if I posted as Joey,
32:42it does way better. Because there's kind
32:44of this dynamic of like, oh, I'd rather
32:46follow a person than a company. So, when
32:48you're when you're posting things, like
32:49how do you think about that? Like
32:50posting as Austin versus posting as
32:52Revie?
32:53That's been
32:54a a struggle in the sense that we have
32:57wanted to not have it be so just
33:00associated with me. Like having a team
33:02and it not just being me and Noah
33:04anymore,
33:05it's hard for people on the team if it's
33:07just like I'm getting the credit for
33:09these things, you know? And that doesn't
33:10feel right to me, either. We've tried to
33:13brand things as more Revie. A lot of
33:15what we've been doing this year has been
33:16collaborations as a team to sort of be
33:18like, "Hey, this is the actual set of
33:21people, not just me." But you are right
33:23that I think just naturally
33:27these platforms are able to understand
33:28if it's a business that's trying to say
33:29something, and they want those ad
33:31dollars, you know? So even from like a
33:33Yeah, there's the personal standpoint
33:34where like I would rather follow a
33:36person than a brand, but also I think on
33:37a platform level, that's probably the
33:39case in some ways, too. What that means
33:42to me now is that I just try not to be
33:45as reliant on the brand. Like I
33:48initially when I started in in business
33:51even as like a 12-year-old, like the
33:53initial thing for me, like the golden
33:55goose was like, "Oh, I want so many
33:56people to care about my company, you
33:58know?" But I just think that's a facade
34:00in some ways these days, you know? It's
34:02just not super achievable, and I
34:05I think it's healthier for us as a team
34:08now. Revie is is what we have in its
34:10current form as a production arm of
34:12motion design services, you know? But
34:13there's other things that we want to do.
34:15And so if we just become shoehorned into
34:17like blah blah blah Revie, like this
34:19motion design thing, it limits our
34:22options to be able to do other things.
34:23And so instead, coming at it from wait a
34:26second, instead of just instead of a
34:28brand account that's just putting things
34:29out for all of us, why don't we have
34:31eight accounts because we're eight
34:33people, and we can have our own
34:34audiences? It's like the sitcom effect
34:36kind of, you know? There's your cast of
34:38characters, and people will resonate
34:40with some more than others. And it's
34:41just eventually it's a huge network
34:43effect because even though
34:45I might have the faucet turned off on me
34:47a little bit now, it feels like, we as a
34:50company now have like 200,000 followers
34:53across everybody's stuff. And that gives
34:55us way more reach than if we were just
34:57focused on like, "How can we make Revie
34:59this household name or something like
35:02that, you know?" So we're trying much
35:04more to have people just care about us,
35:05the team, as people, and Revie is just
35:08kind of like the banner we fly under
35:10rather than trying to make that work if
35:12it's just not as much on social. I love
35:15that. Yeah, I mean, there there's one of
35:16your staff, I think his name is Will.
35:18British guy, really young, and really
35:20talented. And I see his content, and it
35:23it's totally different than yours, like
35:24totally different flavor. And it strikes
35:26me I mean, I mean this in the best way.
35:28It strikes me as the kind of stuff that
35:29like my kids are watching on TikTok.
35:31It's just very good motion design kind
35:33of content stuff like that. How does
35:35that then work if that piece of content
35:38from one of your employees brings in
35:40work? Like, you know, what's the How do
35:42you incentivize your team to to do this?
35:45Or do they just like doing it because
35:47that's kind of how Gen Z is? You You're
35:48just always posting and everything You
35:50live your life online. Well, it's both,
35:52actually. I Everybody just loves making
35:54content on the team. We're all
35:55passionate about it. It's just taking
35:57our creativity back and under our own
35:59control instead of always using it for
36:01others, you know? So in that way, it's
36:03fun. But also, we have a commission
36:05structure where on any given project
36:07that would actually come in, it's like
36:095% directly to the person that brought
36:11it in.
36:12But That's so smart. That's so so smart.
36:14That hasn't really been activated yet
36:16because again, we are still battling a
36:18little bit of the like
36:20the leads and things still come through
36:21me in a lot of ways. Like just Austin
36:23Ballance's Instagram account, you know?
36:26And so we're trying to find ways because
36:28I just for the past 3 years, like my
36:30life has been Revie. Like I'm trying to
36:32get projects as much as possible,
36:33whatever. And so I have I naturally have
36:36made this funnel that works pretty well
36:38to where even if people see me as an
36:40individual, they know Revie is where to
36:42go to actually get a project or
36:43whatever. This is like a changing
36:45dynamic that it's it's really
36:47interesting. I mean, it seems you know,
36:48it sounds like you're kind of
36:49experimenting and trying to figure out
36:50how to best make something like this
36:51work. But I'm fascinated by like, you
36:53know, the business model of Mr. Beast,
36:55for example, right? So and even like,
36:57you know, take take School of Motion as
36:58an example, right? So like we're a
37:00bigger company in the education space
37:02for motion design, right? We've I think
37:03we have 21, 22 full-time people now. And
37:07you know, and so when and and when you
37:09when you have that,
37:11you know, operations just get more
37:12complicated. It becomes a little more
37:14difficult to like quickly spin out
37:16something cool, right? Like cuz there's
37:18more people involved. Versus like, you
37:20know, someone like you or a Ben Marriott
37:22or or you know, Jake Bartlett, who also
37:24teaches for us. You know, these are like
37:26sort of you know, lone wolves. They can
37:27just do stuff real quick. And Mr. Beast
37:29can run circles around production
37:31companies that typically would work with
37:33Netflix or something like that and have
37:35to hire 100 people to make something.
37:37And Mr. Beast built his own thing from
37:39scratch. Now he's got a big team, but
37:41he's also bringing in hundreds of
37:43millions of dollars a year, right? So he
37:44can do that. And so there's this dynamic
37:46shift of like, you know, I think people
37:48are more into following individual
37:51creators than brands. And so if you're a
37:54brand, it's actually kind of a tricky
37:56space. So the way you're doing it is
37:57interesting. Like taking your brand, but
37:59treating it almost like a like a a seal
38:01of approval or something, or an umbrella
38:03that your team can work underneath and
38:05incentivizing them to do that. So that
38:07like How do you see that, you know, like
38:09has it worked at all? Like Do you think
38:12Do you have a good feeling about this,
38:13or is this just like an experiment
38:14you're trying?
38:15I feel pretty good about it. It's It's a
38:18good foundation. Like I'm not
38:19necessarily super worried about is
38:22everybody going to be able to bring in X
38:25amount of sales or anything like that. I
38:27think that
38:29it just makes sure that everybody on the
38:31team understands the level of ownership
38:33and the importance just of them as an
38:36individual, so they're not just another
38:38person on the team executing some task
38:40or something. And that makes it so that
38:43rather than preemptively deciding like,
38:45"Oh, we might need this department or
38:47this category of business or those sorts
38:49of things," teams naturally form on
38:51initiatives that people are just excited
38:53about on the team, and that lets us do
38:56anything. Because rather than like what
38:58you were saying where like Mr. Beast is
39:00able to run circles around those more
39:01traditionally structured companies, when
39:03you have a team like this that knows
39:05they can also break off into their own
39:07group and start their own initiative
39:09there, they can also run circles around
39:11other people on the team for specific
39:13things, you know? It sort of lets
39:14everybody use their strengths. Yeah,
39:16it's interesting. I'd be I'd be really
39:17curious to see how that scales as you
39:19guys continue to grow. I think that's a
39:20really neat model. Yeah. I I think
39:23this like core group of eight is is that
39:26foundation. We've all kind of
39:29we think it's going to be really hard to
39:31expand that group because
39:33for as much as the company's been around
39:35for just a short while, Noah and I it
39:38was just the two of us for the first 2
39:39years. And pretty much every one of the
39:42other six people have shown up in the
39:43past 12 months. And what that means is
39:45we've all kind of been on this ride at
39:47like this level of Re- video for the
39:49same amount of time. It's going to be
39:51hard
39:52to onboard people in the same way that
39:55like haven't all been through that same
39:56stuff or those same things, you know?
39:58Yeah, that's so true, man. I mean and as
40:00the company grows like, you know, like I
40:02I remember when School of Motion was
40:03less than 10 people and then we hit 10
40:06and it was like all of a sudden there
40:07was like a state change. Like everything
40:09kind of works a little differently and
40:11then you get to, you know, like 15, 16
40:13and again like it feels a little
40:14different. So you'll go through all
40:16that. I mean I I really like that you're
40:17trying stuff like this though and one of
40:19the things I want to talk about in a
40:20little bit is you tried doing an
40:22interesting business model around
40:24selling a subscription to your services.
40:26But before we get to that, I wanted to
40:27ask you about the transition that you've
40:29had to make. So you mentioned also in a
40:31pre-interview
40:32that you used to be like on the box
40:34artist all the time and now you've got
40:37this team, right? So now you're probably
40:38doing a lot more business-y things and
40:40and God forbid you might actually be
40:42managing your team and doing like, you
40:44know, reviews and stuff like that. So so
40:46how has that been for you and how have
40:48you, you know, tried to educate yourself
40:50on like the best practices, how to be a
40:52good boss and all that? I mean, I think
40:55it is helpful how transparent Noah and I
40:58are in a lot of ways. I mean, publicly
41:00we're very transparent, but that
41:01translates to the team as well. I mean,
41:03everybody knows what everybody on the
41:04team is making, how much Noah and I
41:06make, how much the projects are, all
41:08everything from like a financial
41:09standpoint is open to everybody. So that
41:12avoids any of the usual ick I think
41:14people have from um
41:16a business structure, you know, we try
41:17and remove as much of the like
41:20corporate hierarchy as possible. The
41:22only stipulation is really that just
41:23like Noah and I have the ownership in
41:25the studio, but it really feels like a
41:27democracy in terms of just the
41:29day-to-day decisions and those sorts of
41:30things. The transition though from
41:33working on production all the time to
41:36where I'm at now hasn't been as drastic
41:38as I thought it would be. It feels a
41:40little more stark in the past couple
41:41weeks even that like I have been a lot
41:44less in production these past couple
41:45weeks, but I am still for the vast
41:48majority of our projects, I'm doing a
41:49senior too for for a lot of things. But
41:52it's this it's the usual things I think
41:54a lot of people go through. It's
41:56trusting yourself to trust others to get
41:59things done for clients is a really hard
42:01thing to build from a self-esteem
42:03standpoint. It's just like, "Oh man,
42:05like are is the communication going to
42:07be there on things? Is the like quality
42:10of work going to be there? A couple
42:11times where you just got to stomach
42:12like, 'Oh, that's not how I would have
42:14made something, but I have to present
42:15this, you know?' But thankfully
42:18everybody on the team has been very open
42:20with each other throughout the process.
42:21I mean, if there is a problem anybody
42:23has, it's brought up like immediately.
42:24We discuss it as a group and it it works
42:27out. But that's not made it that hard
42:30because now rather than just being
42:33focused on production and like having so
42:34much of it have to rely on me because
42:36for a long time I was just the fastest
42:38one on the team. So I would say they
42:40would have just like, "All right, come
42:41in, get some stuff done, whatever." Now
42:42I'm able to take that energy and help
42:44try and just future-proof the company to
42:46where it's not just reliant on like
42:49motion design and like the whim of the
42:52economy and the industry and that sort
42:53of thing. So I think the team
42:56understands the vision well and I'm
42:58still in on production in enough ways to
43:00where there isn't any like, "What the
43:02hell is my boss doing?" type feelings or
43:04any of that sort of stuff, which is like
43:05my main thing I try to avoid. Yeah, and
43:08are you guys like remote? Do you have an
43:10office? Like how do you actually work?
43:11So I have this office space just cuz I
43:14don't like working from home that much.
43:16I just got too much of it since we
43:17started during COVID, but everybody is
43:19remote. Noah used to be here with me in
43:21Raleigh, but now he's in New York. Uh
43:24we've got a video editor in St. Louis or
43:26sorry, not St. Louis, in but he's in
43:28Missouri. Uh another guy in Atlanta.
43:30Then we've got as as you said, Will's in
43:32the UK. We've got another person in New
43:34York, someone in Montenegro and someone
43:37in Morocco. So I mean, we're like a
43:38bunch of different time zones and
43:39everybody is remote at this point. But
43:42we're not missing as much of the office
43:45culture as I thought we would be because
43:46again, we started all online anyway. So
43:49we just have a Discord internal Discord
43:51server that we use where we're all
43:53pretty much just sitting in the call as
43:55long as we're working and people mute or
43:58deaf if they want or whatever. But that
44:00way we can just be like
44:02have have those tap on the shoulder type
44:04moments where it's like, "Hey, look at
44:04this thing I did. I need some feedback,
44:06whatever." That type of stuff. And it
44:07still feels like we're all in an office
44:08anyway, which I think was one of the
44:10things I was worried about most in
44:11bringing people on. But we've managed to
44:13make it work.
44:14Yeah, that's pretty cool. I mean, I I I
44:16can tell you from experience like that
44:18that does work pretty well at the size
44:20you're at. It gets a lot harder if you
44:22get bigger. So I again, that's one of
44:24those things I'm really curious to to
44:25watch your trajectory, you know, as Re-
44:27cuz I think what's going to happen, your
44:28work is good and and you know, the way
44:30that you approach business development
44:32like is clearly working and I think once
44:35the economy turns around you guys are
44:36going to grow and it's it's going to be
44:38fun to kind of watch and see if
44:40maintain that, you know, that feeling
44:42and that vibe. It's really difficult,
44:43man, but you got the right mindset. So I
44:45want to I want to talk about the
44:46business development side of things too
44:47because as you grow, my gut is and I'm
44:50curious what you think. My gut is that
44:51there's some scale where relying on
44:54social media is like your primary sales
44:56channel
44:57probably breaks down and and maybe at
45:00that point you have to like start paying
45:02to get greater reach and target, you
45:04know, you have to run LinkedIn ads and
45:06like post this stuff there about paid to
45:08like target creative directors or, you
45:09know, whoever at agencies, whatever. So
45:11there's also the traditional way that,
45:13you know, a lot of studios go out and
45:14they get business and they they call
45:16people on the phone, you know, and they
45:18send emails all day long, take people
45:20out to lunch, go to PromaxBDA, stuff
45:22like that. Are you doing any of that? Do
45:24you think that that's going to be
45:25necessary to to get to the next level?
45:27We have always done some level of cold
45:31outreach. The period where we didn't do
45:33it for the longest was when things were
45:35really popping on social for like the
45:37summer of 2022. But I mean, we go to
45:42industry events when we can. We've been
45:44to Dash Bash a couple times and I just
45:45was lucky enough to go speak in LA at
45:48R&D, which is run by State.
45:50And so we we go to some events like
45:51that. We really like those. It's a great
45:53way to also just like get the team
45:54together since we are all remote. And
45:57otherwise, yeah, we we've tried paid ads
45:59in the past. We have not been fantastic
46:03at that mostly in the sense that just
46:05like it's funny. The organic social
46:08brings in the quality lead for us, you
46:10know, with the right budget and it's the
46:12right type of person. But when we try
46:14and target that person on paid ads, we
46:16usually get the, "Hey, can you make a
46:1830-second video for 400 bucks? Is that
46:20cool? Can you do that?" And so it's it's
46:22just been really hard from a like paid
46:24reach standpoint to justify that.
46:27But you know, LinkedIn messaging, warm
46:30connections, that sort of stuff, email,
46:33but it's usually just like if we if we
46:35really think that we will need a project
46:38at some point, we don't do it a whole
46:40lot. But that's we've tried so many
46:42different things to. I mean, Noah and I
46:45just
46:46feel gross as sales people sometimes,
46:49you know, and we just try and stay away
46:50from the sort of uncomfortable like
46:51sales-y things sometimes.
46:53But that's let us in some interesting
46:55directions. I mean, I've instead of
46:57sending an email sometimes, I'll write
46:58write a very brief email, but then I
47:01will record a video for them where I am
47:04actually just talking in with what I'd
47:05say in the email cuz, you know, you get
47:06your face in there and whatever. But
47:09it's still doesn't really increase the
47:11response rate that much. I don't know.
47:13It just all of cold outreach feels very
47:15foreign to us and so we're that's why
47:18we're so gravitated towards the social
47:20media organic side of things cuz it just
47:22is where it feels like we can really be
47:24us and when we have tried to be more us
47:26in a cold outreach standpoint, it's like
47:28there's this language that we just don't
47:30understand in some ways about how to get
47:33some responses and those sorts of
47:34things. It's a totally different
47:35mindset, you know, I mean, if you're if
47:36you're posting things on social and
47:38someone responds with a work inquiry,
47:40it's because they they're looking for
47:42someone to do something right then,
47:44right? And you're just catching them at
47:45the right time. And when you're doing
47:47paid advertisements, you're catching
47:49people maybe when they're not looking,
47:51but then they think of something and you
47:52really need I my my gut is that you
47:55really need like a a built-out sales
47:57process where that's the top of the
47:59funnel is like the paid part. But then
48:01you probably need to like get on a Zoom
48:02call or something and actually like sell
48:04it through and qualify leads and all the
48:06stuff that you probably don't really
48:07feel like doing, but you know, I I see a
48:09lot of success from from from bigger
48:11studios especially where they you have
48:13to do that at some level to to until you
48:15have the relationships that go back 10
48:17years, 15 years and then you can kind of
48:19rely on repeat business and and
48:21referrals and stuff. When I booked you
48:22on this, I I asked people like, you
48:23know, in in School of Motion Slack and
48:25on Twitter, you know, what what would
48:27you like me to talk to Austin about? And
48:29the number one thing was the
48:31subscription service because that, you
48:33know, there's there's three or four
48:34artists, you know, currently that that I
48:36know are are talking about and doing
48:38this publicly. They're starting up just
48:39for anyone who's listening who doesn't
48:40know what we're talking about. There's
48:42this business model that, you know,
48:44you're very familiar with, software as a
48:46service. So if you have a subscription
48:48to Dropbox or Slack or Frame.io, those
48:50are softwares you pay monthly fee. And
48:52now there's also service-based
48:54businesses that do this. Primarily I've
48:56seen it for design, for software
48:59engineering, for copywriting, things
49:01like that where there's this recurring
49:03need, but you don't always know when
49:05you're going to need it and it's
49:06sometimes nice to just plan as a
49:07business, we're going to put someone on
49:08retainer and just have it have them
49:10available.
49:11And now people are trying to do that for
49:13motion design. So motion design
49:15subscription services. And I know you
49:18guys tried this. So I have a lot of
49:21thoughts on why this could work, why
49:23maybe it can't work. I'm curious. You
49:25actually tried it. So tell me the story
49:27and what you think. Before you hear
49:29Austin answer that, I want to tell you
49:30about our free weekly newsletter Motion
49:33Mondays. This is a 5-minute email you'll
49:35get each Monday that will keep you up to
49:37date on new tools, events, and news in
49:39the worlds of animation, design, 3D, and
49:42visual effects. Pause this episode, head
49:45to motionmondays.com, link in the
49:46description, to sign up for free, and
49:48then come on back. All righty, let's get
49:51back to Austin. All right. So,
49:54the number one reason we wanted to do it
49:55anyway, I don't know if this is the case
49:57for other people though, was I mean,
50:00it's the ebb and flow of the revenue,
50:02obviously. When a lot of businesses just
50:05coming in because someone somewhere else
50:07decides they need a project, and then
50:09you happen to be the chosen one for
50:11that. That's not a fantastic repeatable
50:13business model, you know? It's great
50:15that like as motion designers, we can
50:17get a good chunk of money for these
50:18projects,
50:19but if it if it carries you for a couple
50:21months and there isn't repeat stuff,
50:22then what's that going to do?
50:24And we didn't really have the
50:26relationships yet to just try and pursue
50:28retainers, and also
50:30there's just certain expectations with
50:32that word that we I don't think felt
50:35really well suited for, more just like
50:37impostor syndrome type thing.
50:39And so I saw some of these subscription
50:41services for especially product design
50:43or
50:44mostly from like a UI standpoint, UI UX
50:47design and that sort of thing.
50:48And I was like, well, I can figure out a
50:50way to make this work because like you
50:51start doing the numbers in your head and
50:53you're like, okay, if we just get this
50:54many people paying this amount per
50:55month, we could have this kind of
50:56revenue per year, and it's like, gee,
50:58that sounds great, Austin, from a
50:59numbers perspective, but reality is not
51:02that for a studio, I don't think.
51:05For a couple different reasons, but
51:07what we tried was initially just
51:10reaching out to a a couple of our
51:11clients and talking them through the
51:13idea and getting some feedback. And it
51:14it helped inform some of the decisions.
51:16The number one problem we were running
51:18into is like, okay, how do we quantify
51:21what someone is able to receive monthly
51:24with the subscription or quarterly or
51:26whatever it is.
51:27Right.
51:27Because that can vary so much in whether
51:30it's 3D or 2D or if it's cell or
51:33whatever kind of animation, let alone
51:35the length or the amount of
51:37deliverables, any of that sort of stuff.
51:39And
51:40what we do for a lot of our projects
51:42normally, just a flat rate is charged
51:44often times based on the length of the
51:46video. We've been able to get things
51:48pretty well oiled machine-wise to where
51:51if we just understand the length of the
51:52video, we can get a pretty good
51:53estimate. Mhm. And so I was like, all
51:55right, what if we say that it costs, I
51:59don't remember the actual numbers for
52:00each of these, but our most expensive
52:02plan was like $8,000 a month or
52:04something. And that was going to get you
52:0660 seconds worth of animation every
52:08month, which one
52:10is a severe price reduction of what I
52:14mean, it's like
52:15way less than half. It's almost like it
52:17it's less than a quarter of what we
52:19would normally charge for something like
52:20that. But the idea is that, you know, if
52:23you have that repeat business, you don't
52:25have to worry about that pricing as
52:26much, or at least that was the mentality
52:27at the time. So anyway, we essentially
52:29started saying like, all right, we're
52:30going to have these price plans based on
52:32the amount of the number of seconds of
52:34animation, those sorts of things. And
52:35then whatever is beyond that, or if
52:37there is a project that just can't fit
52:40within there, we'll bill that separately
52:41or something like that.
52:43And we thought there was a bunch of
52:44different ways you could do this. Like
52:45you could also limit that by like, okay,
52:4660 seconds, but max two projects or
52:49something like that. But there were a
52:50couple things that started to go wrong
52:52pretty quickly once we deployed. First,
52:54I I've been really surprised with how
52:57open a lot of people seem in the
52:58community to this now, but when we
53:00launched, people were not happy that we
53:03were thinking about doing this, and we
53:04were not
53:05Sure.
53:05getting good reception for it. And so
53:07that was one hurdle to tackle, but also
53:10when we started doing outreach, we're
53:11like, oh, this is going to be like a
53:13no-brainer. I mean, instead of paying us
53:15like five times what they could get from
53:17the subscription, they can just pay that
53:19price and get our work instead. Like
53:21who's going to say no to that? However,
53:23people don't trust a price that's that
53:25low if they're used to paying something
53:27else. Like there is a certain level of
53:30like, why is this so cheap? that we were
53:32getting as a hesitation. And then when
53:35you try and and increase the pricing,
53:36then suddenly it's too expensive, and
53:38like we just could not get people to
53:40agree and match with the pricing very
53:42well. And so that that was definitely an
53:44issue. But at the same time, we're also
53:46realizing, and funny enough, this is
53:48around when we just start deciding after
53:50all of this friction that like, okay,
53:52maybe we should just go back to
53:53project-based stuff. Like I don't know
53:54about this. Is when we actually got some
53:56people interested. And so we get into
53:58some of these calls, and we're talking
53:59through it, and then this lightbulb goes
54:01off. That okay,
54:03we're a studio. We've got eight people
54:04on our team,
54:06and we were pricing things to like first
54:08and foremost try and make sure that we
54:09can pay people and that sort of stuff.
54:13And suddenly we realized like, hold on,
54:15you're telling me it's going to be a
54:17good idea to say like, yeah, you can get
54:19some recurring revenue, that's great.
54:21But if we were to sell a $70,000
54:24project, okay, and that might when we
54:26have done projects of that size, it's
54:28usually like a month or two worth of
54:29work. Yeah. We're going to have them pay
54:32that once for the whole year and do way
54:35more work like just because it's
54:37consistent money, even though it's less?
54:40Like it just didn't make sense from a
54:41studio perspective. It's like
54:43part of the marketing was that like, oh
54:45my god, we can get cheaper than some of
54:46like the top freelancers with this model
54:48as long as we get like enough clients,
54:50essentially. It was like totally
54:51volume-based. And that's fine, but from
54:54a studio perspective, that didn't really
54:56make a whole lot of sense because with
54:57the amount of work that could
54:59potentially happen, I know the hope for
55:00a lot of people is that like, well,
55:01they'll only need to use it sometimes.
55:03They won't need it all the time. Right.
55:05But think about if people are using
55:07that, like what are you going to do if
55:09you're a team of eight and you've got
55:10like 10 clients that all need 60 seconds
55:13worth of stuff one month, and all of
55:15that only ends up being like Yeah. 70
55:17grand a month or something like that.
55:18Like that doesn't work out
55:20mathematically. You know, you're you're
55:21screwed. So, I think
55:24if I were to do something like that,
55:26one, I would get a team and just build a
55:29whole arm of the company that is just
55:30for that, you know? Like I don't I
55:32wouldn't want it to intertwine with any
55:34of the normal project-based stuff cuz
55:36maybe that means it's for like specific
55:37types of projects or something that fall
55:39in that bucket.
55:41But I think for freelancers, it could
55:43work pretty well.
55:44Because as a freelancer,
55:47as long as you don't take on too many
55:49clients, essentially what you could do
55:51is get a very similar like salary
55:52position that you could get by going to
55:54work in-house, but you'd still have all
55:56of the freedom of being a freelancer and
55:59still being able to get that salary. And
56:01they won't need to use it all the time.
56:02So as long as you understand what your
56:05like if you can understand what salary
56:07you'd want from that company, I think
56:09you could pretty easily just build out
56:11your salary as a personal business just
56:13by having like two or three clients or
56:15something like that as an individual.
56:17You just really got to be careful about
56:18like how specific you are with the
56:21restrictions on what that money gets
56:23people, and I think that's especially
56:24hard to do with animation compared to
56:26some of these other things. Yeah. Okay.
56:28So let's dig into this a little bit. So,
56:30you know, for anyone listening that that
56:33isn't familiar with the way like gym
56:34memberships work, okay? So to me, that
56:36that was that was my instinct was, okay,
56:38this could work if it's the same as a
56:41gym membership. And the way those work
56:42from my understanding is you know, so
56:44I've got LA Fitness down the road from
56:46me, and they charge you, you know, 40,
56:4850 bucks a month or something. You can
56:50go to Planet Fitness for 10 bucks a
56:51month.
56:52And the the problem is you cannot make a
56:55profit when someone's paying you 10
56:56bucks a month to your gym that costs
56:58millions of dollars to build.
56:59So what you so you're going to need, you
57:01know, a thousand people or more paying
57:04that every single month, but your gym
57:06can't hold that many people.
57:08So you know, and and this has been born
57:11out and there's like Harvard Business,
57:13you know, case studies on this of like
57:1590% of the people never go to the gym
57:18and they don't cancel their membership.
57:19And that's literally the business model.
57:21You're counting on that. It's the same
57:23thing. I have a buddy, one of my
57:24neighbors, he used to own a car wash.
57:26Same kind of deal. They
57:28they would always try to sell these
57:29memberships. So you get like, look, you
57:31can get unlimited car washes with this
57:33membership. If they actually if everyone
57:35did that and used it, they'd go out of
57:36business. Yeah. But they know that like
57:39it's literally going to be one in 10
57:40people are ever going to use it. Mhm.
57:42You know, so
57:43was that the hope, you know, when when
57:46you were kind of doing the numbers that
57:47like, okay, well, if we get 10 clients,
57:49but only one at a time is asking for
57:51stuff, then it works? Yeah, it was
57:53trying to think through how we could
57:55cascade that schedule. So like people
57:57would have a period to request a
58:00project, and then we would tell them
58:01when the delivery date could be on that,
58:03and that would let us set the schedule
58:05on the back end so that we could still
58:07keep it profitable. But the issue is
58:09that when you're dealing with I mean,
58:11even though $8,000 for 60 seconds is
58:14much lower than what we would charge,
58:15it's still a lot more than $10 for a gym
58:17membership, you know? And so it's going
58:19to be hard for any business to justify
58:21something like they're going to be way
58:22more careful about putting something
58:25like that on their finances. Like it's
58:28just so much more money. Yeah,
58:29absolutely. Okay, so but even as if a
58:31freelancer was trying to do this. So so
58:34so I'm I'm being skeptical right now,
58:35but in a minute I want to I want to try
58:37to figure out with you maybe how could
58:39this work? Is there a world where this
58:40actually does work? But if you're a
58:42freelancer and you do this with one or
58:43two clients, your best clients, and and
58:46they put you on retainer, and it's maybe
58:48sort of a cost-plus thing where if you
58:49if you go over the amount of hours that
58:51you're guaranteeing them, they pay you
58:53extra, but they're getting a discount
58:55cuz the retainer. Mhm. Okay, maybe that
58:57works, but but even then, I mean, a good
58:59freelancer, you know, during the boom
59:01years, the COVID years, I knew
59:02freelancers making three and 400k. I
59:05don't know how many clients on retainer
59:07you'd need to to be able to do that, you
59:09know? And Yeah. Yeah, it it seems
59:11tricky. So we're we're So I mean, you've
59:14gone over kind of the the most I think
59:16obvious things that were kind of
59:18challenges. Was there anything
59:19surprising about it? Like, you know, you
59:21mentioned you you try to sell this
59:22through to clients, and and that the low
59:25price was actually a downside in a weird
59:27way. Yeah, it it was scaring people off
59:29because they like anybody that we were
59:32reaching out to, especially if it was
59:33somebody who didn't know who we were if
59:35it was just cold outreach.
59:37If they're someone like working at Apple
59:39or something like that, okay, and they
59:40see a budget like that they're like,
59:42"There's no way I can trust what's going
59:43to come out of this if it only costs
59:44this much, you know?" That was
59:46definitely surprising. Uh and I think
59:49also I don't know just
59:52everything about it was just strange.
59:54It's like a boat that like you plug one
59:56of the holes that's leaking and then a
59:57million other ones pop up. You just like
59:58uncover more stuff under the rocks that
1:00:00you just don't expect with this sort of
1:00:01thing. But I think overall it really was
1:00:04just like we cannot even project numbers
1:00:07on this stuff because even if and I mean
1:00:09we had annual, quarterly, and monthly
1:00:12plans and then you decrease the the cost
1:00:15based on if they go longer.
1:00:17What if somebody does monthly? Like sure
1:00:18you're getting the most money that way
1:00:20but they could just leave the next
1:00:21month. There's still no real way to
1:00:23guarantee. Oh, and you got to be real
1:00:25careful with how short these periods can
1:00:28be of payment because someone could
1:00:30could have totally just used us and
1:00:32taken advantage of that system and been
1:00:33like, "Oh, these guys are so silly."
1:00:35Because imagine you're somebody who's
1:00:36been scoping out taking a project from
1:00:38us let's say like 60 seconds for 40k or
1:00:40something like that.
1:00:42And you're like, "Oh, they want to try
1:00:44this thing. I can get this for $8,000?
1:00:46Okay." And then they could have just
1:00:47canceled the next month. Like what what
1:00:50is stopping them from doing that? And
1:00:52then they still got what they wanted but
1:00:53like sure we got our subscription
1:00:54working or whatever. So when So I I know
1:00:57there's there's a guy on Twitter does is
1:00:59it Design Joy? Yep. That was That was
1:01:02the primary inspiration for us on that.
1:01:04Yeah. So So I don't know his business
1:01:06model but I actually know other people
1:01:07who have run businesses like this. And
1:01:10the you know some of them are up front
1:01:12about this. Most are not. The secret is
1:01:15they're hiring designers offshore.
1:01:17They're hiring designers who you know
1:01:19and and sometimes they're getting really
1:01:20talented people but they live in the
1:01:22Philippines or you know somewhere like
1:01:24that where it like the cost of living's
1:01:25way lower and they can pay them 500
1:01:27bucks a month. Yeah. And and it becomes
1:01:29a currency arbitrage thing. You know do
1:01:32you think that this could work if
1:01:34someone was ethically okay with that? I
1:01:36mean is that maybe how you can actually
1:01:39make the numbers work? Well, yeah cuz at
1:01:40that point you effectively are just
1:01:42building a studio with ridiculously over
1:01:44low overhead, you know? And you can just
1:01:46get as many people as you need as long
1:01:47as you keep your subscription price high
1:01:48enough. Yeah. Yeah. So School of Motion
1:01:51for a little while we were testing out
1:01:53the design version of this. There was
1:01:55there was a company called Design Pickle
1:01:56we tried. There was another one I can't
1:01:58remember that it was super something but
1:01:59we tried them both. And you know
1:02:02like for what we were paying like we
1:02:05were getting okay stuff just the quality
1:02:07is so bad, you know? And you have to you
1:02:10have to beat the designer up to get what
1:02:11you want. I mean maybe if we were a
1:02:12business that didn't care about design
1:02:14or didn't have the sophistication to
1:02:16know good from bad maybe that'd be okay.
1:02:18But I think for any any brand that has
1:02:21real budgets they're going to have taste
1:02:23and they're not going to want you know
1:02:25so like you get what you pay for, right?
1:02:27So And at that point if it is a company
1:02:31that doesn't have those design
1:02:33sensibilities and doesn't really care
1:02:34about it that much they just feel like
1:02:36it's something they should do. Why
1:02:37wouldn't they just get somebody to do it
1:02:39for them and just use Canva or something
1:02:41like that? You know it will be cheaper
1:02:43anyway than what you'd probably have to
1:02:44charge for a service like that, you
1:02:46know? Yeah. I wouldn't want that for the
1:02:49design industry. However, you know, from
1:02:51a cost perspective I just think that
1:02:52might make more sense in that situation.
1:02:54Yeah. Well, I mean I you know I'm I'm a
1:02:55realist so you know I don't want to like
1:02:57yeah I don't want to be an ostrich and
1:02:58put my head in the sand and pretend that
1:03:00these things don't exist.
1:03:01You know that I I think that kind of
1:03:03leads nicely in into the last thing I
1:03:04wanted to talk to you about which is
1:03:06sort of the future of all this. So you
1:03:08know like it's really interesting
1:03:09talking to younger artists like you
1:03:11where you came up in this industry when
1:03:14it was already like getting mature. It
1:03:17wasn't quite mature yet but it's fairly
1:03:19mature now I feel like. There's a lot of
1:03:21players in it. And you know motion
1:03:23design used to mean a pretty specific
1:03:25thing. For a while it literally meant
1:03:28explainer videos. Like that's I think
1:03:29what what was in most people's minds.
1:03:31And now it's expanded quite a bit and
1:03:33you've got you know a lot of UI and UX
1:03:35animation. You've got Rive the new app
1:03:37that's like making a lot of noise.
1:03:38You've got you know multiple 3D apps and
1:03:40now you've got like the Sphere in Las
1:03:42Vegas. So everyone's aware that you can
1:03:44do these amazing like motion design
1:03:46things on on surfaces.
1:03:48And so I'm curious like from your
1:03:50perspective when I say motion design
1:03:51what pops into your head? Oh boy.
1:03:54Two tracks for me with this.
1:03:56Minecraft obviously. Well, yeah of
1:03:58course Minecraft. But that is part of it
1:04:00kind of like it's foundation to me. I
1:04:03think
1:04:04motion design is a fantastic place to
1:04:07just become a very well-rounded
1:04:09creative. I think there are just things
1:04:11you learn by being in this industry that
1:04:13you could take and use for any creative
1:04:15field in some way. So that's part of it
1:04:17to me. From that I am feeling a lot it
1:04:19despite being in it for such a short
1:04:21amount of time
1:04:22it does feel just a lot more saturated
1:04:25than it it used to be. It feels like it
1:04:28is becoming for a lot of people
1:04:32the next like get rich quick or like
1:04:35here's the next skill to learn type
1:04:37thing. But it's not really coming from a
1:04:39place of passion.
1:04:40And I think that's that's affecting our
1:04:42industry in a lot of ways and especially
1:04:44financially, you know? It feels like
1:04:46there is a bit more of like a race to
1:04:48the bottom from a pricing standpoint on
1:04:49some things.
1:04:51And it's
1:04:53it used to be it felt like it's I say
1:04:55used to be even though it was only four
1:04:57years ago or whatever. However, Back in
1:04:58my day. Back Back when when I was a
1:05:01youngster. It just felt like there was
1:05:02such a smaller pool of of freelancers,
1:05:05you know? Especially qualified
1:05:07freelancers for working with some of the
1:05:08larger studios and things.
1:05:10But now it really feels like the skills
1:05:12are just a lot more accessible and
1:05:14quickly. So it just feels like it's
1:05:15getting harder to diversify yourself.
1:05:18Part of what that means to me is why we
1:05:20do a lot of social content and why we
1:05:22like the personal branding so much. It's
1:05:24not because we want to just be an
1:05:26influencer or like be that annoying guy
1:05:28that pops up on Instagram all the time.
1:05:30But in a world where there are a lot of
1:05:33people learning the skill
1:05:35or just getting a lot of things from
1:05:37like the same points of influence in
1:05:39their journey I think a lot of the ways
1:05:41that we can become unique is to just
1:05:44kind of avoid thinking about that
1:05:46process and like, "Oh, I need to make my
1:05:47work feel more this way." Or whatever. I
1:05:49think it's
1:05:51really just relying more on yourself as
1:05:52a person and realizing like somebody
1:05:54else is not going to be that person. If
1:05:56as long as you are following what your
1:05:58like passion and instinct is. If you
1:06:00care about this industry, you know, or
1:06:03the craft like I feel like that will
1:06:05inherently
1:06:07cause some sort of rise, you know? And
1:06:09so I don't know if there's like a word
1:06:10that sums all of that up for that part
1:06:12of it but it's just kind of like an
1:06:13uncertainty of like what that looks like
1:06:15and if people will rise to the occasion
1:06:17and
1:06:19sort of
1:06:20stop the industry from kind of just
1:06:23cloning a bunch of motion designers, you
1:06:25know? I I am hoping that there's more of
1:06:28a resurgence of like, "Ooh, there's like
1:06:29a bunch of really exciting new people
1:06:32that are out there." And I can see that
1:06:33in some places.
1:06:35Yeah. That's the I mean I see you
1:06:37and and your team as as some of that
1:06:38because it felt like for years and and
1:06:41to be honest like I'm guilty of kind
1:06:43kind of perpetuating this too I think
1:06:45through School of Motion. Like there's
1:06:46you know the the heroes that I came up
1:06:48in this industry kind of worshipping,
1:06:50you know, Buck and Psyop and studios
1:06:53like that and Jorge right you know now
1:06:54Ordinary Folk. You know like every time
1:06:56they do something it's amazing and so we
1:06:58talk about it and and it's funny it's
1:07:00like very easy to miss all of the young
1:07:03artists that are coming up that are
1:07:04doing really cool amazing stuff and
1:07:06that's you know earlier in the interview
1:07:08I mentioned like seeing these Minecraft
1:07:10music videos people are making. And
1:07:12they're really like innovating. I mean
1:07:14you know they're I'm sure they're using
1:07:15Blender and they're teaching themselves
1:07:17how to do this and and it's amazing.
1:07:18Yeah. And I agree with you. I think
1:07:20motion design needs a little bit more of
1:07:21that. So I wrote this article for Motion
1:07:23ographer years ago. It was actually
1:07:24probably before you were doing this at
1:07:26all. That would have been like six or
1:07:27seven years ago. But in it I tried to
1:07:29like define motion design and I asked a
1:07:31bunch of people in the industry what
1:07:32they thought. And one of the guys I
1:07:34asked was Adam Plouffe who runs Battle
1:07:36Axe. So they make Overlord. And yeah I
1:07:38mean like it's
1:07:39you know you know absolutely let's toast
1:07:41to to Mr. Plouffe. But but he had this
1:07:43he had this great answer.
1:07:46He said, "I don't see motion design as a
1:07:48skill or as an industry. It's more of
1:07:51like this collection of skills that then
1:07:54you can apply to whatever, right? So you
1:07:57know he applied it to building a
1:07:59software business essentially. You know
1:08:01and I and I look at like Rive. I don't
1:08:03know if you've you know dove into that
1:08:05app yet but it's amazing. I'm actually
1:08:07having the having the CEO on on the
1:08:08podcast pretty soon.
1:08:10And there you know the way that that's
1:08:12being used you know Duolingo like
1:08:14they're in giant app like almost all
1:08:16their animation is being done in Rive
1:08:18now. And all of that's motion design and
1:08:20you've got the Sphere in Las Vegas and
1:08:21you've got the Meta Quest 3 coming out
1:08:24and and it's going to make AR so much
1:08:25more accessible. All of that, right?
1:08:27Even you know all these new things
1:08:29Gaussian Splatting. How are motion
1:08:30designers going to be using that? And so
1:08:32I you know to me it's like it's hard to
1:08:34say what motion design is. I'm not even
1:08:35sure it's possible. So what are you What
1:08:38are you looking at as far as like the
1:08:40future of where Ruvy goes, right? So I
1:08:43mean
1:08:44you know on your portfolio you can go
1:08:45look right now. Everyone will link to it
1:08:47in the show notes. It's awesome stuff
1:08:48and a lot of it you know like you just
1:08:50did a big project for Chick-fil-A which
1:08:51is really cool. So you're doing
1:08:52advertising. You're doing explainer
1:08:54stuff. You showed me something that you
1:08:56did for like a a conference, right? So
1:08:58you're doing live live event stuff.
1:09:00And that all is still fairly traditional
1:09:02motion design sort of applications. But
1:09:04what are the other things that you're
1:09:05looking at? I mean I obviously you want
1:09:07to do something for the Sphere in Vegas.
1:09:08That's clear.
1:09:09It's It's going to be the new thing. I
1:09:11want it so bad. Yeah. By the way just
1:09:13randomly I talked to the owner of a
1:09:15studio who did a lot of work when they
1:09:18opened that thing up. But I asked him if
1:09:19he'd come on and talk about it and he's
1:09:21like, "We I can't. We can't talk about
1:09:22it. We signed Yeah. It's like NDA.
1:09:24Everything's NDA now."
1:09:26You know? It's It's the same thing. Dude
1:09:28you if you do anything for Apple, you
1:09:29can't tell anybody. So. That's always
1:09:30how it goes, man. It sucks, right?
1:09:32Chick-fil-A don't care. They'll let you,
1:09:33but like not not not the sphere. But
1:09:36anyway, so I'll let you answer. What
1:09:37what kind of stuff are you interested in
1:09:39in working on? And what do you think is
1:09:41going to be big in the next like 10
1:09:42years? So, I mean, COVID naturally
1:09:46created a huge void for people wanting
1:09:48experiences. Whether that means AR or VR
1:09:52like digital experiences, which is crazy
1:09:55to me that like the sphere is basically
1:09:57just the most insane version of VR you
1:10:00can get. It They just built the thing
1:10:02for it. It's it's going to be
1:10:03experiential in some way. I I think
1:10:06events, as much as they already have
1:10:08been big things in the past, I think
1:10:10that will be the new explainer video. If
1:10:12the past like 10 years has been the
1:10:14decade of the explainer, I think now
1:10:16it's going to be the decade of the
1:10:17conferences and the the events, whether
1:10:19it's for corporations or charities or or
1:10:21whatever it is. That seems to be the
1:10:24next logical step to me. And aside from
1:10:26that, I think it's going to be a lot
1:10:28more interactive. Obviously, Rive is is
1:10:31pushing that a lot is pushing that
1:10:33forward a lot. But there's also, I
1:10:36think, going to be a lot of opportunity
1:10:37where, hopefully anyway,
1:10:40studios especially, like I said earlier,
1:10:42take that creativity back into
1:10:45themselves in the same way that they've
1:10:47been offering it to all these businesses
1:10:48for so long. I want to see more moments
1:10:51where studios are making games and other
1:10:54fun interactive things like that. You've
1:10:56got Hobbs making cool tools and stuff
1:10:58all the time. Like I want to see that. I
1:10:59want to see studios
1:11:03like, rather than only being able to
1:11:05show the stuff that they make for
1:11:06clients and those sorts of things, I
1:11:08want to see that creative endeavor from
1:11:10people in our industry that's just
1:11:12because it's something they want to
1:11:13make. Not necessarily from an art
1:11:14perspective. It could be a game that
1:11:16they want to go and sell like Buck's
1:11:17been doing or those sorts of things. But
1:11:19that, I think, is is what's most
1:11:21interesting to me. I hope that people
1:11:23are able to get a good bounty of revenue
1:11:26from the traditional ways that we have
1:11:27in the past with just client-related
1:11:29projects and those sorts of things. But
1:11:31I really hope that
1:11:33people start to realize just how, like
1:11:35you said, that umbrella of our skill set
1:11:38can enable them to create anything that
1:11:40anybody could want to use or play or buy
1:11:44or whatever. And I would just like to
1:11:45see us as creatives embrace that a
1:11:48little bit more. I love that. So, you're
1:11:50using the toolbox like, you know, Adam
1:11:51Plouffe talked about using that in these
1:11:53sort of entrepreneurial ways, which,
1:11:56dude, I'm all for. So, the last question
1:11:57I have for you, Austin, is, you know,
1:11:59like I've got my list of influences and
1:12:02my favorite animators and studios and
1:12:03all of that. And, you know, I talk about
1:12:05this with with my contemporaries in the
1:12:07industry that it always feels like we
1:12:09mention the same five or 10, you know,
1:12:11people and studios. It's kind of it it
1:12:13Some of it's just laziness, right? Just
1:12:15to be honest. You know, but some of it
1:12:16is also it's like it it's kind of hard.
1:12:18Like you kind of especially online, you
1:12:21end up in these bubbles where, okay,
1:12:23everyone in my bubble is the people that
1:12:25have, you know, are in their like 30s
1:12:27and 40s. And I'm not seeing like all the
1:12:29amazing artists that are in their 20s.
1:12:31And by following by following you and
1:12:33following Rive, now I'm starting to see
1:12:34some of that and it's amazing. So, I'm
1:12:36curious like, you know, who are you
1:12:37looking at? Who do you think's doing
1:12:39awesome work? It could be a person, it
1:12:40could be a a studio. So, there there's
1:12:43two people that come to mind.
1:12:45One, his he goes by Seven, but his name
1:12:48is Wonil Seo. And he It's crazy like he
1:12:51has a good amount of followers on
1:12:52Instagram, but he is so insanely
1:12:54underrated. He just turned 18 like a
1:12:57couple months ago.
1:12:58And every video that he puts out that he
1:13:00makes personally looks like it could
1:13:02have been done entirely by Ordinary Folk
1:13:04for a client project. It is nuts. This
1:13:06dude goes I'll make sure to get you his
1:13:08handle and all that sort of stuff. But I
1:13:11I love what he's doing not only because
1:13:12the work is great, but also he's been in
1:13:14our community for a little while. And he
1:13:16lives in South Korea. He's got a bunch
1:13:18of his friends just like this group of
1:13:20like seven
1:13:2218-year-old
1:13:24South Korean just teens just making a
1:13:26ton of awesome motion work together.
1:13:29They just did a project for Samsung a
1:13:30couple months ago as well, which is just
1:13:33wild. They are absolutely going to make
1:13:35a studio at some point. Right now, it's
1:13:37kind of just like a loose collective
1:13:38thing, but 100% they will be huge. Love
1:13:41it. Another person who's very prominent
1:13:43in our community as well, Gordon Howie.
1:13:46He is a I believe he's Scottish. I
1:13:49really hope that's right. Scottish. He's
1:13:51a Scottish motion designer and he just
1:13:53makes such
1:13:55awesome character work. Even if it's not
1:13:57like a traditional-looking character, he
1:13:58just manages to put eyes and faces on
1:14:00stuff and just make it so engaging. He's
1:14:02been in a lot of our challenges and
1:14:04things.
1:14:04And the work he makes is just so fun.
1:14:06And he has had one of the more viral
1:14:08posts that I've ever seen. He just made
1:14:10a submission for one of our challenges.
1:14:11He only had like
1:14:13a week to do it or something. And he got
1:14:15like almost a million views on Instagram
1:14:17just in a couple days. Dude shot from
1:14:19like a thousand followers to like 15,000
1:14:21or something like that. It was crazy.
1:14:23But he also is really involved in his
1:14:26own community. Like he started this
1:14:28event that he runs around the UK with a
1:14:31couple other people just as like a local
1:14:34motion design get-together and hang out
1:14:35for animation. So, I think those are
1:14:38two super valuable people in the
1:14:40community for sure.
1:14:41Oh, that's awesome. All right, cool.
1:14:42Well, thank you. I'm going to have to
1:14:43follow them and maybe maybe we'll get
1:14:45them on the pod one day, you know? Got
1:14:46to do it. Love it. Yeah, I mean, I think
1:14:48I'm trying to think you might be the
1:14:50youngest person who's ever been on the
1:14:51podcast. I'd have to go back and look.
1:14:53I'm not sure. I'll be second place.
1:14:54That's okay. Listen, yeah. Then I'll
1:14:55lose the title real fast, but that's
1:14:57okay.
1:14:59Well, dude, thank you so much for doing
1:15:00this. It was awesome chatting with you.
1:15:02Of course, man. Glad to be here. Loved
1:15:04it. Head to rive.co to see the amazing
1:15:07work coming out of the studio. You know,
1:15:09there's something in the water in North
1:15:11Carolina right now. It's becoming a
1:15:12little bit of a hub for design and
1:15:14animation. Austin, thank you so much for
1:15:18the transparency about your business,
1:15:20about what's worked and what hasn't, and
1:15:22for carrying the torch of motion design
1:15:25well into the future. I really can't
1:15:27wait to see what Austin and the Rive
1:15:28crew get up to next, and I cannot wait
1:15:30to see you on the next episode. So, make
1:15:33sure you are subscribed so you don't
1:15:34miss any of the interviews we're doing.
1:15:36We have some ballers coming up shortly.
1:15:39And that's it for this one. Bye.

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