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Mormons Meet Bible Scholar Bart Ehrman | Ep. 2120 — Transcript

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0:00Hello everyone and welcome to another
0:01edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm
0:03your host John Delin. It's February
0:0526th, 2026 and we have back on Mormon
0:09Stories one of the coolest guests we've
0:12ever had on Mormon Stories. Today we
0:15have back on Mormon Stories the Dr. Bart
0:18Urman, professor of I don't know, the
0:21Bible. And uh Bart has a brand new book
0:25that's coming out in March called Love
0:28Thy Stranger: How the Teachings of Jesus
0:31Transformed the Moral Conscience of the
0:35West. And you can get this book on
0:37Amazon. You can pre-order it. We're
0:39going to be talking about this book
0:41possibly throughout, but definitely at
0:43the end. For those who don't know, I I
0:46wanted to reintroduce Bart to our
0:48audience because we did interview Bart
0:50several years ago on Mormon Stories
0:52podcast, but Bart Urman is a
0:55distinguished professor of religious
0:57studies or we can say was or probably
1:00still is a distinguished professor of
1:02religious studies at the University of
1:04North Carolina at Chapel Hill. I say was
1:07because he uh I think December 31st,
1:092025 was his last day. We can have him
1:12talk about that. Bartman is the author
1:15of six New York Times bestsellers,
1:17including Misquoting Jesus, How Jesus
1:20Became God, and The Triumph of
1:22Christianity. His books have been
1:25translated into 27 languages with more
1:28than 2 million copies sold. Bartman,
1:33congratulations on your retirement from
1:35UNCC Chapel Hill. Welcome back to Mormon
1:38Stories. And you also have a YouTube
1:40channel and a podcast. Is that right?
1:42>> Yeah, I do. It's It's named after that
1:44book, Misquoting Jesus. And so it's a
1:46weekly podcast and uh plus other things
1:48on my YouTube channel. Yep. Yep. Uh so
1:51right can't compete with Mormon stories,
1:53but you know, we do our best. [laughter]
1:55>> Well, I think uh I think you're doing
1:57just fine. In fact, you're doing so well
1:59that uh I thought the shtick for today's
2:01episode would be Bible scholar meets
2:04Mormons. In other words, obviously I'm
2:06Mormon, but I've got two avid listeners
2:10and or co-hosts who are big Bart Urman
2:13fans. So, Colby, why don't you tell Bart
2:15who you are and why you wanted to be on
2:17this episode or why I chose you or asked
2:18you to be on this episode?
2:20>> Yeah, absolutely. So, Bart, I am a
2:22practicing attorney that lives in
2:24Boisee, Idaho. John has me on as a guest
2:26from time to time um or guest host from
2:29time to time to talk about Mormonism's
2:31truth claims. Um, I'm interested because
2:33I absolutely love your podcast. I listen
2:36to it basically every single week and uh
2:39have loved your your work and your books
2:40and I really really loved your last
2:43lecture. I thought it was really
2:44touching. Um, I have also taught law as
2:46an adjunct professor for the last seven
2:48years and I think your passion as a
2:51professor really comes through in that
2:54last lecture. So, thank you for
2:55everything you've done.
2:57>> Well, thank thanks. I really appreciate
2:59it, Colobby.
3:00>> Yeah. And we'll make sure Brooklyn puts
3:02in the show notes a link to Bart's last
3:05lecture. It's a lecture he gave as he
3:06retired from UNCC Chapel Hill. But it I
3:09don't know, Bart, is it fair to say it
3:10gives an overview of many of the the key
3:13points of your research and and your I
3:16don't know messages over the past
3:18several decades.
3:20>> Um, yeah, I'd say so. I mean I I try you
3:22know look it was a lecture 50 minutes
3:24but I I did try to emphasize what I
3:27thought was kind of at the core of what
3:29biblical scholarship is is really all
3:30about and uh so I think I called it like
3:33the most significant discovery in the
3:35history of biblical scholarship. That's
3:37a bit grandiose [laughter] but I didn't
3:39make it so I'm just talking about it.
3:42>> Well it's it's a mustwatch and there's
3:44already 176,000 views which is far too
3:46little but it's also very impressive.
3:48Really quickly, Ky, tell Bart who you
3:50are and why you wanted to be on this
3:52episode.
3:53>> Yeah, I'm a practicing physician and a
3:56big fan of yours and uh going through a
3:58faith uh deconstruction, reconstruction
4:02probably eight years ago. you were one
4:04of the first people I jumped into most
4:07of your debates on YouTube and uh then
4:10reading you know as many books as I can
4:12find um really instrumental in forming a
4:16better understanding of you know Bible
4:18history new testament and my view of who
4:21Jesus was and um yeah I've been I've
4:24been a big fan ever since and loved your
4:27last your last lecture there as well.
4:29>> Oh well thanks thanks go appreciate it.
4:32All right, Bart. Well, even though we're
4:34going to be covering some new some of
4:36the same ground we covered when you were
4:38on Mormon Stories several years ago,
4:40there's a whole new generation of
4:41viewers and listeners who I want to
4:44introduce to you and to get them to buy
4:46your book. And to do that, I want to go
4:48back and have you begin by telling us a
4:51bit about your origin story, the fact
4:54that you were an evangelical Christian
4:56before you weren't, and tell us a bit
4:59about your faith transition, what got
5:01you into Bible scholarship, and then
5:03we'll go from there if that's okay. And
5:05also any preamles or throat clearing you
5:08want to begin with. Take it away,
5:09Bartman.
5:11[laughter]
5:11>> Thanks. [gasps] Yeah. Yeah. Well, no,
5:13I've had a, you know, I've had a very
5:14interesting journey, at least from where
5:16I sit. Uh, I was raised in a uh
5:18Christian household. We were, uh, I was
5:20raised Episcopalian. Uh, we weren't, we
5:23were a fairly religious family, but we
5:25weren't, you know, conservative
5:26evangelical or anything like that. When
5:28I was, uh, 15 in high school, I had a
5:31born-again experience uh, through a uh,
5:34in a group, group that was in the high
5:36school, a Christian group, and I uh,
5:38committed my life to Christ as my Lord
5:40and Savior. and I became a very
5:42committed evangelical. Uh after high
5:45school, I went to Moody Bible Institute,
5:47which is a fundamentalist Bible college.
5:50And I was very gung-ho into uh learning
5:53about uh the Bible and about how to
5:55evangelize people and uh how to be a a
5:58faithful Christian. And my entire
6:01understanding of the Bible and of
6:02Christianity came out of that
6:04fundamentalist uh background. Um I um
6:08when I graduated from Moody I went to
6:10Wheaten College which is an evangelical
6:12liberal arts school where I started
6:14actually broadening my horizons a bit. I
6:16was taking classes in in cultural
6:17history and in philosophy and in you
6:20know art history and geog you know
6:22geology and so I I started broadening my
6:26view of the world. Uh after that I I
6:28took Greek at at college at Wheaton and
6:30I wanted to become a scholar of the
6:33Greek New Testament and I was especially
6:35interested in studying the Greek
6:36manuscripts of the New Testament to
6:38understand where they were different
6:40from each other and how we could figure
6:42out what the authors originally wrote.
6:44Uh the world expert on that was a man
6:46named Bruce Mezer who taught at
6:48Princeton Theological Seminary and I
6:50went there for my master's degree to
6:52study with him and then I stayed on for
6:55uh a PhD there. I was there for seven
6:57years. Um while I was there, I started
7:00changing my views about the Bible and
7:03about uh understanding what it was all
7:05about. Uh the um Princeton was not an
7:09evangelical school. Uh it was a
7:11Presbyterian school training
7:12Presbyterian ministers. I I was not
7:14Presbyterian, but the person I wanted to
7:16study with taught there. So that's how I
7:18went there. And I started realizing in
7:20the course of my studies as I learned
7:22Greek more thoroughly and started
7:24reading the New Testament in Greek more
7:26carefully and as I learned Hebrew and
7:28started learning uh reading um the the
7:31Hebrew Bible in Hebrew um eventually
7:34then I learned French and German to read
7:35scholarship from Europe uh on the Bible
7:38and I threw myself into it uh quite
7:41seriously and I started realizing there
7:42are problems with the Bible uh there if
7:46you're dishonest with each with yourself
7:47as I I told myself. I said, "If I'm
7:49being honest with myself, I'll re this
7:51is a contradiction. This is a flatout
7:53contradiction." And once I started
7:55realizing that that there were
7:56occasional contradictions, it made me
7:59start realizing that the Bible wasn't
8:00what I thought it was. It wasn't an
8:03inherent revelation from God. It was a
8:05very human book. Um, that was the
8:07beginning of my biblical scholarship.
8:10Um, and as I progressed through my
8:11masters and then my PhD program, I
8:13realized increasingly that the Bible
8:15isn't a single book. It's it's actually
8:1866 books that have been combined into
8:21one book. So that's actually what my
8:23last lecture is about is about how once
8:26you realize the Bible is different books
8:29by different authors written at
8:30different times in different places to
8:32different audiences with different
8:33perspectives and views and theologies.
8:36It it changes how you look at the Bible
8:39and it actually uh makes it far more
8:42interesting and important and it
8:44explodes the interpretation because
8:46you're no longer making one book say
8:48exactly what some other book says.
8:50You're actually you're realizing oh they
8:52are different. Um so uh I I remained a
8:55Christian uh for a long time for years
8:58after that uh but of a more liberal bent
9:00ended up again in the Episcopal church.
9:03Um, when I came to Chapel Hill to teach,
9:05I was a I was a liberal Christian and I
9:07I worked at the uh I I didn't work. I
9:09taught like adult Sunday school at the
9:11local Episcopal church. And um it was
9:15only some years later that I um
9:17struggling with the problem of why
9:19there's suffering in the world, why
9:20there's so much pain and misery in a
9:23world that is in which God is to be
9:26sovereign. uh a world where God is said
9:28to answer prayer and yet prayers don't
9:31get answered and people suffer horribly
9:34um that I started questioning my faith
9:36altogether. It was probably 30 years ago
9:39when I finally realized, you know, I
9:40just don't believe there's a God in this
9:42world, at least a Jewish Christian God
9:44who's in control, created the world, is
9:46going to redeem the world. I don't I
9:48don't believe it anymore. And so for the
9:50last 30 years, I've been um I've been a
9:53a an atheist with respect to like what
9:55do I believe? I do not believe there's a
9:57superior being in the universe. I'm also
10:00consider myself an agnostic though
10:02because if somebody were to ask me, do
10:04you know if there's a superior being in
10:06the universe? I'd say no. How would I
10:08know? [laughter] There's no way to know.
10:10So I don't know it. So I'm agnostic. I
10:13don't know. But I don't believe it. So
10:14I'm an atheist.
10:16>> Beautiful. Bart, really quickly,
10:20we we'll probably be talking about uh
10:22many of the concepts that were
10:24influential to uh causing you to lose
10:27your faith, but from a personal
10:29perspective,
10:30can you share with us kind of two or
10:32three of the biggest silver bullets that
10:36you person that personally kind of
10:38penetrated your your Christian faith
10:42consciousness and uh and kind of really
10:45really did you in what were two or three
10:48of the biggest examples or topics or
10:51passages, you know, or concepts that
10:54really hit you personally, if that makes
10:56sense.
10:57>> Um, well, I'll give you I'll give you
10:59one of sort of each. I mean, for me, the
11:02big transitions were from being a a very
11:04conservative evangelical to being a more
11:07liberal Christian. And for that, it was
11:09[laughter] actually it's it was just it
11:11was because of my education at Princeton
11:13Seminary. But the the the event that I
11:15that made made a huge difference was
11:17early on and I I talk about it in one of
11:19my books misquing Jesus. I I had I had
11:22uh been assigned I had taken a class on
11:24the gospel of Mark. This might have been
11:26like my second semester there at
11:27Princeton. It was like right away at
11:29Princeton Seminary and it was it was a
11:31study of the Gospel of Mark the entire
11:33semester on the Gospel of Mark studying
11:34it in Greek. Um, and so before the
11:38semester, I memorized all the Greek
11:39words in the Gospel of Mark, so I could
11:40just read it without having to look
11:42things up in dictionaries. And I, you
11:44know, and so I threw myself into this
11:46course. And at the end of the uh
11:47semester, the the term paper was
11:49supposed to be on any topic we chose uh
11:52on the Gospel of Mark. Uh, and I had
11:54long been intrigued by a passage in
11:56Gospel of Mark, even when I was an
11:58evangelical, in Mark chapter 2, where
12:00Jesus is um uh Jesus and his disciples
12:04are on a Sabbath. They're by a grain
12:07field and the disciples are hungry and
12:09they go into the grain field and they
12:11start pulling things off and eating
12:13them. So, it must be corn or something
12:14like that. They start eating some corn
12:16or we don't know what. But the Pharisees
12:18uh see them hap doing this and they
12:20accuse Jesus and they say, "What? What?
12:22Why are you letting your disciples do
12:23that? It's the Sabbath. They can't be
12:25harvesting on the Sabbath." [gasps] And
12:27Jesus Jesus as he always does in the
12:30gospels gets the better of them by
12:32telling a story and then delivering a
12:34powerful oneliner. The story he says,
12:36"Look, don't you remember in the Hebrew
12:38in the Old Testament, don't you remember
12:39in the Bible when David and his
12:41followers um were hungry on a Sabbath
12:44and no, he did not they were hungry and
12:47they went into the tabernacle and they
12:50ate the showbread that was on the altar
12:52that only the priests were supposed to
12:53eat." Uh so you know their need was
12:58superior to the law. The Sabbath was
13:01made for humans, not humans for the
13:03Sabbath. And so uh and so he gives this
13:06story and he says and he says, "Remember
13:08when that happened in the Bible when
13:10Abbyar was the high priest." And then he
13:12gives the story. The thing is that I
13:15knew it as an evangelical that Abathar
13:18was not the high priest when this
13:19happened. His father Ahemc was. If you
13:22just look it up in the in the book of 1
13:24Samuel, Aimilec is the high priest. So
13:26then why does Jesus say Abathar is the
13:29high priest? Isn't that a contradiction?
13:31So I decided to take that on in my term
13:33paper, 30-page term paper, digging deep
13:36into the Greek grammar and explaining
13:38that based on a sophisticated analysis
13:41of the Greek grammar that even though
13:43Jesus said I'll be author as the high
13:44priest, what he really meant was that a
13:46himch was a high priest.
13:47>> [laughter]
13:48>> So that was my that was my term paper 30
13:50pages trying to prove that. Uh and so
13:52the professor of that class was a very
13:54devout he wasn't I don't know if he'd
13:57call himself evangelical but he was a
13:58devout believer in the inspiration of
14:00the Bible. No no mistakes in it kind of
14:03guy. And so but but I mean no mistakes
14:05in the sense that I mean there weren't
14:07like huge errors but he was he wasn't a
14:10complete conservative evangelical. And
14:12so I wrote this paper, had this
14:14analysis, and at the end of the paper,
14:15the only thing he said was, "Maybe Mark
14:18just made a mistake [laughter]
14:21and he was a pious person I looked up
14:23to." I thought, "Oh, really? Huh? Maybe
14:25it is possible Mark made a mistake. Wait
14:27a second, that makes better sense than
14:29my 30-page, you know, detailed analysis
14:31that was just making stuff up to get
14:33away [laughter] from." So that that
14:35alerted me to the fact there actually
14:37could be a mistake. And once I realized
14:39there could be a mistake, I started
14:41seeing more mistakes and more and more
14:43and contradictions that led. So that was
14:46one that was one one moment in my life.
14:49>> Thanks for [clears throat] sharing that.
14:52um when when you did start losing your
14:55faith just because so much of our
14:58audience, not just LDS or Mormon, but we
15:01have a lot of uh former evangelicals,
15:04former Scientologists, Jehovah's
15:05Witnesses, over half our audience has
15:07never been Mormon. Uh but but what I
15:10think many of us have in common is just
15:12the difficulty and the pain and the
15:14trauma of losing faith. uh especially a
15:18high demand religion can be really
15:21really painful and and difficult. Uh was
15:24it difficult for you to experience that
15:26faith transition and if so how was it uh
15:29most challenging for you?
15:32>> Yeah, it was very difficult because you
15:33know as I said after that event I was a
15:36liberal Christian for a number of years.
15:38I came to think that because of all the
15:40suffering in the world I just couldn't
15:41believe there was a God who was active
15:42in the world anymore. Um and uh it
15:46wasn't because of a personal experience
15:48of mine. It was because of just seeing
15:49the incredible suffering all around us.
15:52Um it was very very difficult for me
15:54emotionally. I found it emotionally
15:56wrenching uh for years. Um I was um I
16:01was afraid uh that maybe there is an
16:03afterlife and if I'm wrong I'm in
16:04trouble now. Um I was I lost uh I lost
16:10friends. I had um a rift in the family
16:14um about it uh because my my my parents
16:18for example remained committed
16:19Christians. Um and uh it was just it was
16:23very disruptive. My entire life up to
16:25that point, my thinking life, my
16:26thinking about big issues in life were
16:28all centered on the uh the truth of the
16:31Christian faith. And now I was saying
16:32that I didn't think it was true anymore.
16:34And so I found it very emotionally uh
16:37disrupting and disturbing. Uh, and it
16:39took a long while for me to get over it.
16:41Uh, I did get over it. I'm completely
16:43over it now. Uh, but it, you know, when
16:45it's something that's that near and dear
16:46to you, it is very difficult to leave
16:49it.
16:50>> Yeah.
16:52Beautiful. [clears throat]
16:53Well, um, let's go ahead really quickly
16:57um, and jump in. Just start really
16:59broadly if that's okay. Colby, you had a
17:02question around the value of religion
17:06just broadly speaking. Do you want to do
17:07you want to go and ask that Bart?
17:10>> Yeah, sure. I would love to. So, you
17:12know, Professor Man, as you look back at
17:14the role that religion has played in
17:17kind of stabilizing society, I think a
17:20lot of people can share their
17:22perspective on how um foundational
17:25religious belief has shaped the West. It
17:27sounds like that's the topic of your new
17:29book. I guess my question would be kind
17:32of two-part like what role has religion
17:35played in serving as kind of that
17:36stabilizing foundation for societies and
17:40do you think secular frameworks were
17:42will ever get to the place where they
17:43can replicate that function that
17:45historic historically has been played by
17:47religious belief.
17:48>> Yeah. No, it's a really good question
17:50and it's you know it's the one that
17:51everybody who has faith issues struggles
17:53with. you know if I leave the faith I
17:55mean apart from society at whole as a
17:57whole but where do I find my moral
18:00compass for example how do I how do I
18:03know how to behave now because I don't
18:05have a god telling me how to behave and
18:06and do you lose do you lose the moral
18:09compass then and what what and your
18:12basic thinking about like life and
18:13meaning and what's the purpose and is
18:15there any purpose and all of those
18:17things are centered in your religion and
18:19um so you know in my book what I do in
18:22this book love thy stranger is But I try
18:24to argue that a very very important
18:27element of what we think about as what
18:30it means to be a moral person, what it
18:32means to do the right thing and to be
18:34the right kind of person comes to us
18:36directly from the teachings of Jesus and
18:39not from how we are formed in our you
18:41know by our ancient DNA and not by the
18:44world into which Jesus is born. Uh there
18:47were Greek and Roman philosophers who
18:49were moral philosophers who were very
18:50intent on explaining how ethics should
18:53work and how people should behave and
18:55they have they were some of them were
18:56brilliant and they had really fantastic
18:58insights but Jesus had a different
19:00approach to things and uh in in one key
19:04respect Jesus my my theme of my book is
19:06that Jesus thought that um what really
19:09mattered wasn't if somebody was close to
19:12you that's you don't just help people
19:14who are close to you. You don't love
19:15your neighbor in the sense of just your
19:17family and your friends and your close
19:18community. You love anybody in need. Uh
19:22anybody who's in need, even if they're
19:23an enemy, you help them. Uh and that
19:27because Jesus taught that, his followers
19:29taught it. And when his followers took
19:30over the Roman Empire, that became the
19:33understanding of morality within the
19:34Roman Empire, which took over the Roman
19:36world and has been handed down to us
19:39today. So the question is, if we if we
19:42leave the Christian faith, where are we?
19:44[laughter]
19:45you know, um, do we lose our sense of
19:47morality? Does society have anything to
19:49tie it together anymore or not? My views
19:53about this is are that, um, that it's
19:57not that Christians are more moral than
19:59other people in my experience. Um, it's
20:02not that non-Christians are necessarily
20:05non-moral. The kinds of things that glue
20:08us together are of much of it is in our
20:11DNA that glues us together as
20:13communities and most people throughout
20:16uh the western world now do have a
20:18common moral sense even if they don't
20:20believe uh in in the Christian message
20:23anymore or even they were never
20:24connected with Christianity because
20:26Christianity was so central to the
20:28development of western society and
20:30culture uh kind Christian mentality is
20:34in people who are complete atheists even
20:36if they don't recognize it. So, I'm not
20:38I'm sure I'm answering your question uh
20:40very well. But I I do think that that
20:43that the kinds of things we get out of
20:45Christianity could in theory happen
20:47outside of Christianity. I think the big
20:49problem is that people who leave the
20:51faith usually don't have communities to
20:53go to where they can share their values
20:56and share their concerns. And you know
20:58it's one of the brilliant things about
21:01some organized religions is the idea of
21:03fellowship with like-minded people that
21:04you don't you know don't normally
21:06socialize with.
21:08>> Yeah follow
21:10>> I I did and I think the the thing that's
21:12very interesting to me about your
21:14comments uh Dr. sermon is, you know, you
21:16talked about how recognizing the
21:18suffering that we see all throughout the
21:21world was so foundational to you kind of
21:23losing the the last vestigages of your
21:26belief in Christianity. Um, I kind of
21:30experienced that in reverse in the sense
21:32that I during my time as a an attorney
21:36earlier in my career, I worked as a
21:37criminal prosecutor and when I was
21:39working on a very difficult um child
21:41abuse case that resulted in the the
21:43death of this child due to uh abuse and
21:46neglect, um I just saw things in this
21:49case file that just completely changed
21:51me. And so I didn't actually, you know,
21:54leave Mormonism for several more years,
21:56but at that point I basically shifted to
21:59only being able to believe in like a
22:01deistic God model because because of
22:04that issue. And I think one of the
22:06things that's interesting to me about
22:07what you just said is how
22:10often times, obviously not always,
22:12people who really really believe kind of
22:14the core of this Christian message,
22:16which you're talking about, this
22:17expansive view that Jesus had can
22:20sometimes be used then to lead people
22:23out of that faith. Right? It's seeing
22:25this expansive view that then that Jesus
22:28taught that can then cause people to
22:30look and see this suffering all around
22:32us in a completely different way.
22:35>> Yeah. No, it's a great that's a really
22:37great point. And you know, when people
22:39there are a lot of people who've had
22:41experiences similar to yours where
22:43they've just seen horrible suffering and
22:47you know they just realize you know of
22:48course people try to explain it and they
22:50they have explanations and the
22:52explanations are satisfying to some
22:54people but other people look at and just
22:56say no there's no good explanation for
22:57this if there's a god in the world. Um
23:00and so I uh I very much appreciate that.
23:02M
23:04>> let me ask you really quick, Bart. One
23:06of the when somebody feels burned and
23:09rejected by their religion or by their
23:11faith often times uh or they've been
23:14traumatized or hurt by it, they end up
23:17uh feeling like, you know, their
23:20religion is evil, their church is evil,
23:22religion itself is evil, and that
23:25humankind
23:27might have been better off if there was
23:29never religion to begin with. But
23:30certainly today would be better off if
23:33there was no religion. Can I this is a
23:36weighty question and and I'm sure it's
23:38not a undimensional answer, but I would
23:40love to get your high level take on on
23:42that on those questions.
23:45>> Well, you're absolutely right and and
23:47it's you know, I don't I don't have a
23:49lot of contact with Mormons in that
23:50situation. I have some, but I' I've had
23:52a lot of contact with evangelical
23:54Protestants in that situation who um and
23:57look, most of us who left the faith
23:59understand the knee-jerk reaction
24:01[laughter]
24:01when you just you just cringe when
24:04somebody holds to things that you used
24:06to hold yourself and uh you just think
24:09they're so wrong. It's so obviously
24:10wrong and can't understand why they
24:11don't know it's wrong. And um there's a
24:14kind of a veheance about it that often
24:16comes about and people sometimes do just
24:19say look religion is horrible and of and
24:22it off it often is because of their
24:24personal experiences when they've been
24:25very hurt by things within their
24:27religious tradition. So I I get that and
24:30a lot of people like that really like a
24:32lot of my books because they think that
24:34it's kind of um uh kind of fueling the
24:37fire that they've got burning within
24:38them. Um, I've always been a little bit
24:40surprised by that because I'm not I'm
24:42actually not opposed to Christianity
24:44myself or any in any of its forms. I
24:46mean, Mormonism or Catholicism or
24:48orthodoxy or, you know, fundamental
24:50fundamentalism. I'm not fond of. I'm not
24:51fond of fundamentalism. Any kind of fun
24:53I'm just Christian, Islamic, Jewish,
24:55whatever. That's the problem for me. But
24:58not religion per se. So, the thing about
25:01this book that I've just written is that
25:03it's the only book that I think I've
25:05written that people will look at and
25:07say, "He's really saying something
25:09really quite good about Christianity."
25:11And I am. [laughter]
25:14It's not that I'm a Christian because
25:15I'm not. But I think people go too far
25:18in painting a dark picture of of
25:21religion in general and Christianity in
25:24particular because that's my my main
25:26field of interest. uh because they just
25:28say they can point out all the wicked
25:30things that have happened and do happen
25:32in the name of religion. And it's not
25:34hard to drop a list. In my book, at the
25:36end of the book, I point out, you know,
25:38I'm not just painting this in a bright
25:39light because I recognize uh how
25:42anti-Judaism early on in Christianity
25:45led to horrible events, pilgrims and
25:48slaughters of villages in the Middle
25:50Ages and eventually led to the
25:52Holocaust. Absolutely happened.
25:54crusades, uh, Islamophobia, Inquisitions
25:57where you torture people to death
25:59because they don't have the right
26:00beliefs and and justifying slavery in
26:03the south in the American South,
26:04oppressing women. I mean, it's just
26:06like, oh my god, there's so much uh that
26:08is negative. But my book is my book
26:11tries to say, yes, that is that is
26:14absolutely right. And there there's no
26:16way to minimize that. In my view, there
26:18is also good that happens. And we would
26:21be I think it I think it's foolish to
26:24say that it's all bad when in fact you
26:26can show there's a lot of good and in
26:29ways that just I didn't even expect
26:31going into this book. But as I did the
26:33research I I came to realize things that
26:36are I think are historical facts. I mean
26:37such as Christians in the Western world
26:40are the ones who invented public
26:42hospitals
26:43and they invented orphanages.
26:46They uh they invented uh homes for the
26:48elderly. They invented governmental
26:50assistance to the poor because they're
26:52poor. They invented private charities
26:54for disasters. These are all Christian
26:56inventions in the west. And so people
26:59don't believe me when I say that,
27:01[laughter] but I'm tell it's true. It's
27:03historic. It's it can be shown. And so
27:06that's a positive side. So I you know I
27:09um I have not been as badly burned by
27:12religion as other people have been. And
27:14so I I sympathize with those who do and
27:16I try to empathize with those who do.
27:18But I think it's also important to look
27:19that there is a good side as well.
27:22>> I love it. Bart, one of the big problems
27:26that I think people get into is having,
27:28let's just say in the modern era, having
27:31unrealistic expectations about what
27:33scriptures are and aren't, what they are
27:36trying to do and what they aren't trying
27:38to do, and even what they are claiming
27:40to be trying to do versus what we try
27:43and use them to do in modern times. And
27:46often times when you know uh when I talk
27:49about like well the science says the
27:51flood couldn't have happened or science
27:53says the age of the earth is um you know
27:56billions of years. Uh
27:59some of my believing uh Christian
28:02friends will say the Bible you know
28:05before the modern era the Bible Old
28:08Testament or New Testament they weren't
28:10created to be science manuals. They
28:13weren't even created to tell us how
28:15things happened. Um, and and people were
28:18much more comfortable with stories and
28:20fables and myths and they weren't as
28:22concerned about literality. Is that give
28:26us that background and tell us whether
28:27there's validity to people having a
28:30different expectation of scripture sort
28:33of in a preodern time frame.
28:36It's it's a very complicated question.
28:38Um because
28:41uh I mean it is true that Genesis 1 was
28:45not meant to be a science manual. It's
28:49also the case that the author of it
28:51appears to have thought that it really
28:53happened that way. And it's certainly
28:55the case that that was the view of Jews
28:57and Christians throughout the centuries.
28:58They thought it happened that way. Um
29:01when we say it wasn't a science manual,
29:03that's true. But it's because science
29:04itself didn't exist in the way we know
29:07of it. I mean the way we know of what we
29:09think of of science today is a product
29:12of the enlightenment. And you can make a
29:14very strong case that Isaac Newton, who
29:15by the way was a very devout Christian,
29:17although he was considered a heretic by
29:19some, but he was a believing Christian.
29:21He the way the way science got started
29:23is when Isaac Newton had the bright idea
29:26that a scientific experiment the the
29:28result of an experiment did not have to
29:30make sense.
29:33>> [laughter]
29:33>> philos philosophically uh or religiously
29:36or in terms of common sense that the
29:38scientific experiment the result is what
29:41the result is and once you admit that
29:43you start getting modern science that
29:45did not exist before uh the days of
29:47Isaac Newton and so to say that it's not
29:50a um you know that it's not a science
29:53manual is is true but it's because they
29:55didn't have science but it's also true
29:57that they did think it really happened
29:58that way and I think some people want to
30:00kind of soften the impact of science I
30:02You know, obviously the 19th century was
30:04huge for the development of Western
30:06religion both because um uh well,
30:11biblical scholars started realizing the
30:13problems in the Bible that I' that I've
30:15talked about a lot, you know,
30:16contradictions and implausibilities and
30:18things. They start they started
30:19realizing, you know, different authors
30:20had different views in the 19th century
30:22especially that became a big deal in
30:24Europe. Uh but it was at the same time
30:26that the sciences developed and uh you
30:29know Darwin you know Darwin [laughter]
30:31Darwin was trained to be a minister. If
30:34he hadn't got on the beacon he he may
30:36well the beetle he may have well have uh
30:39become just become a country parson. Um
30:42but once you get Darwin writing the
30:44origin of the species uh and you and you
30:47get geologists realizing the earth
30:50cannot be 6,000 years old. it is. They
30:53you know they thought it was much older
30:54than that. They didn't they didn't
30:55realize that it was you know whatever
30:574.5 billion which is the current
30:59thinking but they thought it was much
31:00old. Once you have that combination of
31:02the sciences and this kind of
31:04scholarship on the Bible combining whoa
31:07uh it led to big problems for uh for
31:10religion. And I think it's a mistake to
31:12say well back then you know they didn't
31:14really believe these things. They knew
31:15it was all myth. No, they they knew it
31:18was stories and they appreciated the
31:19stories and they weren't really
31:21interested in the science because
31:22science didn't exist, but they did think
31:24that's how it happened. [laughter]
31:26So,
31:27>> Got it. Got it. That makes sense. Okay.
31:30So, so really quickly, if somebody
31:34um I I loved what you talked about in
31:37your last lecture about just the first
31:40two chapters of Genesis
31:42really illustrating the point that we
31:44just fundamentally misunderstand
31:47how the [snorts] Bible what the Bible is
31:48and how it was put together and that
31:51often times there's multiple stories of
31:54the same event. I think c can you can
31:57you just review with our viewers and
31:59listeners as a teaser uh what most of
32:02them probably haven't even thought of
32:03about the creation story itself
32:05appearing twice within two chapters.
32:08[laughter]
32:08>> I know it's the sort of thing, you know,
32:10biblical scholarship's like this where
32:12we're where like there's something that
32:13a biblical scholar will tell you and you
32:15look at and you say, "Yeah, well that's
32:16obvious. Why didn't I see that?"
32:18[laughter] You know, it's like I read
32:20the Bible for 50 years. I never saw that
32:21before. And it's like right there in
32:23front of your eyes. But until somebody
32:24points it out to you, you don't realize
32:26it. And so what you know with a with a
32:28creation account in Genesis, you get two
32:29accounts in Genesis chapters 1 and two.
32:32And it's a very simple exercise. I give
32:34it to my students when I when I'm
32:36teaching the Hebrew Bible. I say, "Okay,
32:38here's your assignment." And I'm I don't
32:40tell them in advance what to expect. Uh
32:42go through the creation account in
32:44Genesis chapter 1 and list everything
32:46that happens in the sequ right sequence.
32:48Okay? So first God says, "Let there be
32:50light." So that there is light. Then he
32:51made a firmament. Then he separated the
32:53uh you made the land the hard land the
32:55land and then he made the plants they
32:56make sand and you know and it does it
32:58all in six days and then on the seventh
33:00day rest I say okay so make a list of
33:02what what happens in the creation story
33:04then go to chapter 2 verse4 and make a
33:07list of what happens in in that story
33:10when what is created when
33:13and then compare your lists what's
33:16similar between the lists and what is
33:18different and are there irreconcilable
33:21differences so I just give them the
33:22assignment. I don't tell them what the
33:24answer is going to be. They do it and
33:25they come back and say, "Oh my god, I
33:27had no idea." Yeah, you had no idea
33:29because nobody reads it that way. But
33:31you know, which is is is are human
33:33beings the the last thing Jesus that
33:36that that God creates on day six or is
33:40Adam the first thing God creates? Are
33:42humans created before the plants and the
33:45animals as in Genesis 2 or after the
33:49plants and the animals as in Genesis 1?
33:51Uh and so you know is woman created at
33:54the same time or a different time and so
33:56you get you get all of these differences
33:58and then they start noticing their other
34:00problems like just in the Genesis one
34:02story um the sun, moon and stars are
34:06created on day four.
34:09That's after the plants have been
34:10around. You have plants created and then
34:14the sun. Well, what happened to
34:16photosynthesis here? I mean, how
34:18[laughter] do you have plants without a
34:19sun? And not only that, but the sun,
34:21moon, and stars are created on day four.
34:22What's created on day one? Light.
34:25Where's the light coming from? There's
34:26no sun, moon, or stars. [laughter] And
34:28you just go through these things. You
34:30say, "Oh my god." And so that's why
34:32that's why it is right to say these are
34:34stories.
34:36Um, you know, they are, you can call
34:38them myths. I call them myths. They are
34:40myths. They're they're stories about how
34:41God made made the world in a way that
34:44didn't really happen. uh which isn't the
34:46same things that you know people didn't
34:48knew it didn't have. They thought it did
34:50happen. But yeah, you can't take them as
34:51literal descriptions because in the
34:53sense that if you want to know what
34:55really happened,
34:57>> right? And so just really quickly, how
35:01how I don't know uh how we want to refer
35:03to it, if the Old Testament's an okay
35:05way to refer to it, but how why in the
35:08world tell us how the Old Testament just
35:10at a high level was assembled? And why
35:13in the world would Genesis have two
35:15accounts of the same event within two
35:17chapters as as an example of how the how
35:20we should think about what the Old
35:22Testament is versus what the Old
35:24Testament isn't? Does that make sense?
35:26>> It does. Yes. Because when so when
35:28scholars recognize things like that, you
35:31know, look, there are hundreds of things
35:32like that in the Bible where it doesn't
35:34stack up. It's especially interesting
35:36when it happens within the same book,
35:39one chapter and then the next chapter it
35:41happens. Wow. [laughter] Uh it often is
35:44more like this book says this and that
35:45book says that and you just cannot
35:47reconcile these two. That happens a lot.
35:50the Genesis 1 and two thing. Uh scholars
35:52in the 19th century recognized that they
35:56the not only do they have different
35:58orders of creation, different stories
36:00about how the creation worked, these two
36:03accounts, Genesis 1 and 2 use a
36:05different name for God
36:08and they have a different writing style
36:11and they they started going through
36:12things and started realizing these are
36:14really different from each other in lots
36:16of different ways. Um, in Genesis 1, you
36:20have God who's the kind of this
36:21transcendent power who's, you know, let
36:23there be light. Boom, there's
36:24[clears throat] light. But when you get
36:25to Genesis 2 and then Genesis chapter 3,
36:28God is anthropomorphized.
36:30You know, in chapter 3 goes along pretty
36:33well with chapter 2. Chapter 3 is the
36:34Garden of Eden where God is walking
36:37through the garden in the cool of the
36:39evening wondering where Adam went.
36:42[laughter]
36:42You know, it's like it seems to be very
36:44different. So what scholars ended up
36:47realizing and then demonstrating is that
36:50the book of Genesis along with Exodus,
36:53Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy is
36:55comprised of different sources.
36:58That somebody at some point had a story
37:00that you have now in Genesis 1 and a
37:03different story by a different author
37:05written at a different time with a
37:06different view that's now in chapter 2
37:08and put them together. So you have the
37:10two of them together. When you put the
37:13two of them together, people don't
37:14notice generally that they're very
37:17different. If you had them separated,
37:19they'd say, "Yeah, yeah, they ain't the
37:21same." [laughter]
37:22So scholars realize that the the
37:24Pentatuk, the fi the Torah, the first
37:25five books of the Hebrew Bible were made
37:28up of sources, the traditional views
37:29that there are four sources behind it
37:31and that you can separate out the
37:33different stories from the source or
37:35that source. So you have that uh but
37:38then you also have e an even bigger
37:41problem that once you get past you know
37:44once you get past sources within a book
37:46one book doesn't agree with another book
37:48and one author has a different view of
37:50another author and that becomes
37:51especially intense when you get to the
37:53New Testament [laughter] and you start
37:55realizing wait a second Paul doesn't
37:57seem to have the same views of salvation
37:58that Jesus had. What?
38:03Okay.
38:05And and it it it goes deeper. Like I
38:08think people want to believe that like
38:10some committee got together hundreds of
38:12years, you know, before Jesus or even
38:15thousands of years before Jesus and
38:17these Jewish rabbis or whatever and
38:20they're like, "Okay, what which scrolls
38:22are we going to incorporate into this
38:24book and let's make a bound book." like
38:27what like help us understand why uh you
38:32know how or why the Old Testament
38:35shouldn't be thought of in in the modern
38:38context. A book is sort of a technology,
38:40right? It's something that doesn't
38:42appear until much later.
38:44>> Right. Correct. So, well, it it appears
38:47but not like we think of. So the pro the
38:49problem with thinking of say the Old
38:51Testament in the English Old Testament
38:53there are 39 books and when you you can
38:56buy an entire Bible with the New
38:58Testament as well. You can buy just an
38:59Old Testament that has the 39 books.
39:02These 39 books are between two covers
39:04and so you naturally think it's one
39:06book. It's a book and you know it has
39:10you might have 39 parts to it but it's
39:11one book but that if it's one book that
39:14changes how you think about it because
39:16when you when you pick up a book I've
39:18got all these books behind me. You pick
39:19up a book you know chapter one is not
39:22going to be like radically different
39:24from chapter five in sense of like
39:25contradicting it and different
39:27perspective like it's the same book but
39:29the the the Old Testament is not a
39:32single book by a single author. It's
39:34more like an anthology
39:36um that it was collected together much
39:39later. These books were all written
39:41individually. So that like the the book
39:44of Amos w had no connection with the
39:47book of Daniel to begin with. Whoever
39:50wrote Amos wrote Amos and that was
39:52circulating as a book. Whoever wrote
39:54Daniel centuries later wrote Daniel that
39:57was circulating as a book. Later people
39:59compiled them together into a book. Uh
40:02but the fact it's now compiled doesn't
40:05mean it was written that way. They were
40:06all written as individual books. And so
40:08they that the payoff of that is if you
40:10really want to understand each book, you
40:13have to understand what it is saying and
40:16not assume it's saying the same thing as
40:17some other book. You know, so if you,
40:20you know, if you s, if you simply assume
40:22that um that, you know, the the book of
40:25Deuteronomy is saying exactly the same
40:28thing as say, you know, the book of
40:30Isaiah, you're going to get it wrong.
40:33>> And in the New Testament, you you helped
40:35me understand that Matthew didn't
40:38probably didn't write Matthew. Mark
40:39probably didn't write Mark. Luke didn't
40:41write Luke. John didn't write John. Do
40:43we have the same problem in the Old
40:45Testament? And does it even go deeper?
40:48uh in the sense that can we even know if
40:51someone like Adam or Abraham or Moses,
40:56Noah or even David existed, let alone
40:59did they write the books that uh you
41:02know their their names are attributed
41:04to.
41:05>> Big problem. Um one issue in the Old
41:07Testament uh is that a lot of the books
41:09are written anonymously.
41:12So um it's going to be different when we
41:14get to the New Testament, but Genesis
41:16does not claim to be written by Moses.
41:18or excess Leviticus numbers or
41:19Deuteronomy that's a later ascription to
41:22Moses and the books themselves
41:23presuppose Moses did not write them
41:25[laughter] so so uh scholars so there's
41:28that so you have anonymous books you
41:30know Joshua Judges Ruth the these books
41:33are anonymous you you start you get
41:36people assigning names to them you know
41:39oh yeah Moses wrote that in order to
41:41lend greater authority to them there are
41:44other books that claim to be written by
41:46uh by named authors
41:48I mentioned Amos uh or Isaiah for
41:51example. These are people who tell you
41:53what their name what their name is and
41:55they they write a book and in most cases
41:58in the Hebrew Bible in the Old Testament
42:01most scholars think yeah probably there
42:03was this Amos who wrote that. Um but mo
42:06the problem is that most of the
42:07historical in fact all of the historical
42:10books uh are anonymous. So if you want
42:12to know about David you know you don't
42:14have anything David wrote. People say he
42:16wrote the psalms and in fact the psalms
42:19themselves have little headings in
42:21kippets at the beginning that say you
42:23know the psalm of David those were added
42:25later the psalms are anonymous and some
42:27these psalms that claim to be written by
42:29David could not have been written by
42:30David [laughter]
42:32included by the psalm 23 people never
42:34think about this but when at the end of
42:36psalm 23 the lord is my shepherd I shall
42:38not want where at the end he says that
42:40he wants to dwell in the house of the
42:42lord forever the house of the lord is
42:44the temple
42:46It didn't exist until David died. His
42:49son Solomon built it. So [laughter] 23rd
42:51Psalm could not have been written by
42:52David because it's talking about
42:54dwelling in the temple. [gasps] And so
42:56so scholars recognize things like that
42:59and it's a it is a big problem because
43:02uh we don't know who wrote most of these
43:03books and it creates problems for
43:06knowing their historicity.
43:09My view the common view among critical
43:11scholars is no there was not an atom.
43:13Um, I don't think there was an Abraham.
43:15I think that's a widely held view as
43:17well. There might have been a Moses-like
43:20figure, but he certainly isn't wasn't
43:22doing the many of the things described
43:24in the books of Exodus and following.
43:26Um, they're probably there was a David,
43:29but I don't think we know very much
43:30about him. So, these books, they're
43:32they're tell they're telling stories
43:34that had been being told for not just
43:37year after year or decade after decade,
43:39for centuries before people wrote them
43:42down. And most of them are are stories,
43:45meaningful stories, important stories,
43:46really great stories, and um stories
43:50that you can think by, but not
43:52necessarily historically accurate.
43:54>> You may know, Bart, that the Book of
43:55Mormon, a huge section of the Book of
43:58Mormon stems from a literal journey that
44:02people from the Tower of Babel made from
44:05the old world, I guess, to the new. Uh
44:08these people are called the Geredites in
44:10the Book of Mormon. Please, please tell
44:12us, Bart Urban, that at least we could
44:14rely that the Tower of Babel did in fact
44:17happen as as uh as stated in in the Old
44:20Testament.
44:22>> Oh god, I wish I could. [laughter]
44:23>> Don't Martin, don't take don't take the
44:26Tower of Babel away from us Mormons,
44:27please.
44:28>> Sorry, man. So, look, Genesis 11. So,
44:31the it's in Genesis 11. The first 11
44:33chapters of Genesis by uh schol critical
44:36scholars is called the primeval history
44:39which means the it's the events that
44:41happen before kind of real history
44:43starts kicking in for you know in
44:46biblical scholarship real history kicks
44:47in starting in Genesis 12 with the
44:49calling of Abraham. Uh and that's
44:52assuming Abraham really existed which I
44:53doubt too but so the Tower of Babel um
44:57is one of the it's the last tale of the
44:59pre primeval history. these people want
45:01to build a tower because they want to
45:03get up to heaven. Um, it's not they it
45:06doesn't actually say why they want to
45:07get there, but one of the constant
45:09themes throughout Genesis chapter 1
45:11through 111 is that the problem with the
45:13human race is that they're trying to be
45:15like God. They're trying to, you know,
45:17and and so the problem in the Garden of
45:19Eden is that Adam and Eve eat from the
45:21knowledge, the tree of the knowledge of
45:23good and evil because then they can be
45:25like God. And God doesn't want people to
45:27be like him. They're they're mortals.
45:30And so they build the so after the
45:33flood, these people around the world
45:35decide to come together. They all speak
45:36the same language. They build this
45:38tower. This is a replica of what's
45:40happening in Babylon where they build
45:42these zigures or whatever they're
45:44called, these these large tower things.
45:46And so the story is built on that idea,
45:49making a myth out of that. But then God
45:51decides that he has to stop them from
45:52getting up to him because, you know,
45:54they'd be more they'd be more like God
45:56then. And so he confuses their languages
45:58and that's why it's called babble
46:00because they're babbling now because
46:02they can't communicate so they can't
46:03build the tower. Yeah. No, that did not
46:05happen. [laughter]
46:07It's a it's a myth in Genesis 11 to
46:09explain why it is you have different
46:11peoples and different languages around
46:12the world.
46:14And because so much of modern
46:16Christianity is rooted in the Old
46:20Testament, specifically sort of
46:22anti-LGBT kind of teachings, but we also
46:27have kind of this warlike Jehovah God
46:30that's even willing to engage
46:32potentially in uh genocide in the Old
46:35Testament. How do you help those who
46:38want to believe
46:40in the Bible and even in Christianity in
46:43an ethical way? How do you help them
46:45make sense of a genocidal, homophobic,
46:48uh, brutal Old Testament God?
46:52>> Well, it really helps if you accept the
46:54claims of biblical scholars that the
46:56Bible's not a single book. Uh, and that
46:59different books have different
47:00perspectives. Uh, and what that means is
47:04if they if you have perspectives that
47:05don't agree with each other, then you
47:07have to choose which ones you're going
47:08to accept. Um, everybody does that, by
47:12the way. Even the most hardcore
47:14fundamentalist
47:15Christian um chooses which verses to go
47:20with. they will they'll say they don't.
47:23But um today, for example, um if you you
47:28know, there's only a couple verses in
47:29the Hebrew Bible that talk explicitly
47:32about um same-sex sexual relations. Uh I
47:35I hesitate to call that homosexuality
47:39because the concept of sexuality is a
47:42modern concept that you don't have
47:44before Freud. I mean, you certainly have
47:46this the idea that men sometimes want to
47:48have sex with men and women with women
47:50and not only want to but do. I mean, so
47:51that and the Old Testament does condemn
47:54men having sex with men in a couple
47:55places.
47:57It equally condemns
47:59um wearing a uh a sweater that's made
48:02out of two different kinds of fabric.
48:05Um, and it equally condemns uh if if you
48:10have somebody from outside of Israel who
48:12immigrates into Israel, if somebody
48:15joins your country, you are to treat
48:17them like other people who were born
48:19into your country. It is very clear
48:21about this about immigration policy. Um,
48:24and so, you know, if you pick the verse
48:26that that condemns same-sex relations,
48:29but you don't mind wearing certain
48:31sweaters, and you don't care about
48:32immigrants, but you want to get rid of
48:34them, um, you know,
48:37quite apart from like what you know what
48:39I think about those views personally,
48:41socially, and morally, but if you think
48:43you're following the Bible, you're not.
48:45[laughter and gasps] And so, you've got
48:47to choose. And everybody does choose. So
48:49instead of the god who uh sponsors
48:52genocide, I I support the god who says
48:54love your enemy and uh take care of
48:57those who are in need and care for the
48:59poor and the homeless. So you know, so I
49:04guess people choose different parts, but
49:05but once you realize the Bible is
49:07different like that, it frees you up to
49:09recognize that some parts of it are
49:11problematic in the modern world.
49:14Kobe.
49:15>> So on that question of historicity, uh,
49:18Professor Man, I think thinking about
49:20the biblical texts as being a
49:22collection, really a library. I think,
49:25um, I completely agree [clears throat]
49:26with everything you just said, and I
49:28think for me it kind of prompts this
49:29question. Um, and you may be familiar
49:32with this, maybe you're not, but you
49:33know, the Book of Mormon, which is, you
49:36know, purportedly uh an ancient record
49:38that Joseph Smith translated from that
49:41dates back to about 600 BC to 400 AD.
49:44So, kind of runs parallel to both the
49:46Old and New Testaments in the Americas.
49:49One of the claims in the Book of Mormon
49:51is that there was this collection of
49:54brass plates. I've often compared this
49:56to like a proto Old Testament. So it it
49:59kind of is built on this idea that there
50:02was a collection of the first five books
50:04of the Old Testament all the way up
50:06until Jeremiah. Can you maybe just speak
50:10to how the comments you just had about
50:12viewing these as, you know, different
50:14books that probably weren't ever
50:17collected in that form, at least in that
50:19day and age. Do I have that right from a
50:22historical perspective? and just it's
50:24around 600 BC and it it definitely has
50:27the writings of Isaiah in it. And
50:30allegedly this this this Jerusalem
50:33family takes these brass plates that it
50:36contains Isaiah and brings them to the
50:39United States around 600 BC or to to the
50:42Americas. So, uh, yeah, they're always
50:46envisioned as like plates with like
50:48little hoops or loops, and the plates
50:50are kind of like a book, and the loops
50:52are the bindings for the book. So, tell
50:55us the probability that that uh those
50:57please, Bartman,
51:00please tell us that that brass plates
51:01like that existed around 600 BC in
51:04Jerusalem containing what had been
51:07written so far um in what we now know as
51:10the Old Testament.
51:12Once more, I wish I could. [laughter]
51:15Um, so the the big problems from a point
51:18of view of just straight up biblical
51:20scholarship is that parts of the
51:22Pentatuk um and possibly all of the
51:26Pentatuk uh was post exilic. um post
51:31exilic um refers to uh the fact that the
51:35um
51:37uh the Babylon destroyed uh the the
51:41nation of ju of uh Judah and Jerusalem
51:45uh in the uh in the sixth century
51:48>> and books the books that were um and
51:52part parts of the penetuk were written
51:54after that parts of Isaiah were
51:56definitely written after that it's
51:57pretty easy to demonstrate that Parts of
51:59Isaiah were written uh during the
52:02Babylonian exile and parts of it were
52:05written after the people had come back
52:07into uh into uh Jerusalem from the
52:10Babylonian exile. Um there are scholars
52:13who think that parts of the penetuk
52:14probably go into the fifth century or
52:17so. Um and Isaiah uh the the final part
52:21of Isaiah certainly is after the there's
52:24been uh you know back in the land after
52:27the exile. um that would be in the uh in
52:31the 530s or so. Um so I guess
52:34technically if they think like sixth
52:36century I suppose but but um nobody
52:40there there's I don't think there's
52:42anybody uh among the critical scholars
52:45people who
52:46most of these critical scholars of the
52:48Hebrew Bible are either Jewish or
52:49Christian but they aren't necessarily
52:50but but all the critical scholars agree
52:53that this book these books were not
52:55formulated into like a a cannon uh at
52:58that time it was much later much later.
53:02>> Okay. And and this idea of duterro
53:05Isaiah or third or fourth Isaiah
53:09Isaiah I just want to confirm that that
53:11the what we now have in the King James
53:14version of the Bible as Isaiah. Can you
53:17confirm that it was written by multiple
53:18authors over multiple years or even
53:22decades or centuries and that the latter
53:24parts of Isaiah would have been written
53:28a you know after 600 BC
53:31um such that uh important parts of
53:34Isaiah could not have traveled with Lehi
53:37and his family to the Americas uh at
53:40least in totality. Is can you confirm
53:43that or or are we have that wrong?
53:45>> Okay. No. So okay so again since the
53:4819th century when especially German
53:50scholars were digging into this it
53:51became quite clear as they read the text
53:53closely that Isaiah has three different
53:56sections to it. um chapters 1 through39
54:01uh most of those chapters do go back to
54:03the 8th century prophet Isaiah who lived
54:06in Jerusalem and um uh with some
54:09chapters added later but but th those
54:12chapters would be from the 8th century
54:13so the 700s uh in those chapters Isaiah
54:17is is anticipating that the Assyrians
54:20are going to uh invade the north the
54:24land of Israel and destroy the northern
54:27part of Israel.
54:28that happened in 7:22. It actually did
54:31happen. And so Isaiah's written before
54:33that, or at least he's claims he's
54:36writing before that, starting with
54:37chapter 40 up through uh chapter uh 55.
54:44um 40-5
54:46is uh starting in chapter 40, there's a
54:49different author who's c who's
54:52celebrating the fact that now the
54:54southern nation Judah is in Babylonian
54:56exile, but he's celebrating the fact
54:58they're going to be released and
54:59returned to uh return to their homeland
55:02in Judah. That means that it's happening
55:05after the Babylonian destruction of
55:07Judah in the year 586
55:09and somewhat before the year 539 when
55:12they were allowed to return. So it's
55:14it's later in the sixth century. Those
55:17chapters of Isaiah, the final chapters
55:19of Isaiah 56-6
55:22were written after the people had come
55:23back from the land from Babylonian
55:25exile. Uh you just read these texts and
55:28it's clear that's what's going on. Uh
55:30the problem is they're in one book. So
55:31you assume the book is all by the same
55:32author at the same time, but it's not.
55:35And so there's no way that um the bulk
55:37of this book could have been written by
55:39the year 600.
55:42>> Okay, that's super helpful. All right.
55:44Well, let's uh let's move to the New
55:46Testament if that's okay. And let's
55:49begin with maybe what I think uh some of
55:53my friends would say is the most
55:54important question. What is the
55:56scholarly consensus and what is your
55:58opinion about whether Jesus number one
56:02someone named Jesus existed that we can
56:04at least loosely tie to the teachings in
56:08the New Testament. Um but but maybe even
56:13the character that is depicted in the
56:14New Testament is based on someone who
56:17actually lived. Did did a human named
56:20Jesus exist who did anything like what
56:23we think he did um as Christians?
56:27>> Yeah. Well, it depends what you think he
56:28did. [laughter]
56:30Um he certainly existed. Uh so, you
56:33know, there is a there's a loud voice
56:35that is on mainly on the internet, but a
56:37mythicist group of people who insist
56:40there never was a Jesus. Um you won't
56:42find [laughter] critical many critical
56:45scholars among the group but they are a
56:47loud group. Um there the evidence for
56:50the existence of Jesus is completely
56:52overwhelming. Um and so there there was
56:54a man Jesus uh from Nazareth who was a
56:58Jewish preacher who um like other Jews
57:01at the time thought that the end of the
57:02world was coming soon that God is his
57:06answer to suffering. I mean, he realized
57:08there's a lot of suffering in the world,
57:09but he thought that God um was allowing
57:11it to happen for a time. The powers of
57:14evil were allowed to do their worst, and
57:18they were h but God was soon going to
57:20intervene and destroy them and bring in
57:22a bring back paradise to earth. The way
57:24he had originally designed it, there's
57:26going to be paradise again. Uh Jesus
57:28thought that was going to happen within
57:30his generation. Um th that much seems
57:33rel I mean look it is it is about as
57:37certain as you can get about ancient
57:38history that Jesus existed uh is really
57:41pretty certain that something that he
57:42was a Jewish preacher in the first
57:44century who was crucified by Pontius
57:46Pilate. That's virtually certain um what
57:50he actually said and did that's where
57:52the problem comes because we have four
57:54gospels. The gospels um are not written
57:57by contemporaries. They were written
58:00decades later by people living in
58:02different parts of the world who were
58:04didn't speak Jesus' language, Aramaic.
58:06Um they uh are basing their stories,
58:09their accounts on stories that have been
58:11in circulation for years and um they
58:14disagree with each other. Uh sometimes
58:17flatout contradictions, sometimes
58:19differences in perspective. So it is
58:22difficult to reconstruct what Jesus
58:24actually said and did. But it's it's
58:27clear he did exist and the debates are
58:30about the details.
58:32>> Okay. And you know Jesus obviously Jesus
58:36wasn't the way his name would have been
58:38pronounced at the time but that name was
58:41a common name right? So probably lots of
58:43people had that name.
58:45>> Yeah his name so his language was
58:48Aramaic. It's it's related to Hebrew. Um
58:51in Hebrew um so the our name Joshua
58:55comes from the Hebrew word uh the
58:58Aramaic word would have been Yeshua and
59:01in Greek when you say Yeshua you say yes
59:04and when you say yes in English you say
59:06Jesus [laughter] to be people say why
59:09did you just call him Yeshua I don't
59:10know why did you call why do you call
59:12John John why do you call James James
59:14when you're talking in English you use
59:15English names that's why
59:18>> got it okay tell Tell us tell us about
59:21just this uh mind-blowing idea that that
59:24many Christians have never heard of, let
59:26alone would want to grapple with. How do
59:30we know that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and
59:33John may not have written Matthew, Mark,
59:35Luke, and John? Take us back to how we
59:38figured that out, how we know that, and
59:41uh and why that really matters in terms
59:43of understanding the New Testament
59:46better.
59:47Um again it's a complicated question. I
59:51you know I have an entire course on this
59:53that I an online course I do that
59:56explains all this so it would take a
59:57while but but the basic here's the basic
59:59information. Uh the the gospel writers
1:00:02mat we call them Matthew, Mark, Luke and
1:00:04John. The gospel writers are anonymous.
1:00:06They don't tell us their names. The
1:00:08gospels have titles. The gospel
1:00:11according to Matthew but whoever wrote
1:00:13Matthew's gospel didn't call it that. I
1:00:16mean so in Greek actually the oldest the
1:00:18old manuscripts say according to Matthew
1:00:20that's the title well you know when I
1:00:22write a book the title is not called
1:00:24according to Bart [laughter] you know I
1:00:27give it a title and so whoever is
1:00:29calling it according to Matthew is
1:00:31differentiating it from the one that's
1:00:33called according to Mark or according to
1:00:35Luke etc. These are later attributions.
1:00:39The authors don't name themselves. They
1:00:41don't talk in the first person in their
1:00:43gospels. They don't indicate that they
1:00:45were companions of Jesus in the gospels.
1:00:47They um they're writing in a different
1:00:50language from Jesus. Uh so and they're
1:00:53living they're clearly living later.
1:00:54They appear all to be living after
1:00:56writing after the destruction of
1:00:58Jerusalem in the year 70. There reason
1:01:00there are reasons for thinking that. Um
1:01:02the first time we have these names
1:01:05definitely attached to these books.
1:01:07Matthew wrote this one, Mark this one,
1:01:09John, Luke these ones. First time that
1:01:11happens is in the writings of Irenuseas,
1:01:14a church father who was writing uh in
1:01:17the around the year 185.
1:01:19So about a hundred years after these
1:01:21books were in circulation is the first
1:01:24time they're called these things. So
1:01:26they were circulating anonymously.
1:01:28earlier authors sometimes quote them but
1:01:30they don't they don't mention Matthew,
1:01:31Mark, Luke and John. Um so um there are
1:01:36reasons for thinking these were not
1:01:37written by Aramaic speakaking peasants
1:01:40living in uh in Israel at the time of
1:01:43Jesus. Uh they're not written in
1:01:45Aramaic. These authors don't appear to
1:01:47know Aramaic. Um and um uh and so it
1:01:52looks it look there are good reasons for
1:01:54think here they were written decades
1:01:55later in Greek by people who didn't know
1:01:57Jesus. So Matthew, Mark, Luke and John
1:02:00were assigned to these books by later
1:02:02readers because they wanted you to know
1:02:04that these came from authorities.
1:02:07The reason they wanted you to know they
1:02:09came from authorities was because there
1:02:12were other gospels floating around that
1:02:14also claim that actually did claim to be
1:02:16written by apostles. We have a gospel of
1:02:19Peter and a gospel of Thomas and a
1:02:22gospel of Philillip and a gospel of
1:02:24Bartholomew and you know you have a
1:02:26bunch of other gospels that are actually
1:02:28claiming to be written by apostles. And
1:02:30when the people who were sort of in the
1:02:33more what became the orthodox view of
1:02:35things wanted to celebrate their
1:02:37gospels, they named them after
1:02:39authorities so that the you know so so
1:02:42that they'd have authority. Uh and so
1:02:44that's how they got the names Matthew,
1:02:46Mark, Luke, and John. Two of them
1:02:47allegedly are disciples. Matthew the tax
1:02:49collector. John the beloved disciple.
1:02:52Two of them are friends of apostles.
1:02:55Mark a companion of Peter. Luke the
1:02:57companion of Paul.
1:03:01>> Cole. You had a question about the
1:03:02manuscripts themselves, I believe.
1:03:05[clears throat]
1:03:06>> Yeah. So, um,
1:03:08>> or any other question you had.
1:03:10>> Yeah. How does having access to these
1:03:13old manuscripts, you've often talked
1:03:14about how we have copies of the copies
1:03:17of the copies of these manuscripts and
1:03:20uh at one point you mentioned there were
1:03:2330,000 counted discrepancies and then
1:03:26later maybe even hundreds of thousands
1:03:28of discrepancies, more discrepancies
1:03:30than actual words in the New Testament.
1:03:33Um so how does having access to those
1:03:37manuscripts help us to understand these
1:03:41um you know who wrote what and how
1:03:44accurate we can understand what was
1:03:47said. you've addressed this a little bit
1:03:48already and then more specifically
1:03:52um the sermon on the mount um being a
1:03:55sermon a lot of people debate whether
1:03:57this was a sermon given at one time or
1:03:59if this was given uh over multiple
1:04:02different teachings and then sort of
1:04:04compiled. The Book of Mormon actually
1:04:07has its own um mention of a sermon on
1:04:10the mount given when Jesus visited the
1:04:12people in America
1:04:14>> after he died. a after he died and then
1:04:18you know went to visit them. So I guess
1:04:21how likely is it that Jesus would give a
1:04:24sermon on the mount in one sermon in the
1:04:28old world and then give a similar sermon
1:04:31in the new world after his uh death.
1:04:35>> Bart, please don't take the Book of
1:04:37Mormon sermon on the mount away from us.
1:04:39Bart, please.
1:04:41>> Well, if you think it's likely Jesus
1:04:43came to America after his death, then
1:04:44why not? I [laughter] mean, you know, I
1:04:47think the problem is Jesus coming to
1:04:49America for for those of us who are not
1:04:50in the Mormon tradition. Um, uh, and uh,
1:04:54so, okay. So, your your your question
1:04:57has a number of uh, aspects to it as
1:05:01with virtually every discipline, every
1:05:03academic discipline, it doesn't matter
1:05:05whether you're talking about
1:05:06anthropology or sociology or history or
1:05:08philosophy or chemistry, you've got
1:05:11you've got specialization that happens.
1:05:13And in many time many times outsiders
1:05:15the specialization seems kind of like
1:05:17you know why don't you just kind of get
1:05:18your act together and just do one thing
1:05:20but within biblical studies there are
1:05:22specializations and your question
1:05:25actually deals with different
1:05:26specializations.
1:05:28So the question of the manuscripts is
1:05:31different from whether Jesus gave a
1:05:33sermon on the mount. Both of them are
1:05:35different from what about what you can
1:05:37say specifically about how accurate any
1:05:39particular gospel is. And so these are
1:05:41different questions that require
1:05:42different methodological approaches. The
1:05:45manuscripts, um, the only way you know
1:05:49what an ancient writing said is if
1:05:51you've got, uh, manuscript evidence for
1:05:54it. All ancient writings were copied by
1:05:56hand. We don't have original writings of
1:05:59any books of the New Testament. Um, so
1:06:02that whoever wrote Matthew sat down
1:06:06over, you know, days, weeks and wrote
1:06:09out a gospel.
1:06:11We don't have that thing that he wrote.
1:06:14You know, the actual thing he produced.
1:06:16Um, he wrote it, people read it. Um,
1:06:20somebody wanted a copy, they copied it.
1:06:22Uh, some other person from some other
1:06:24church visiting said, "Oh, look at that.
1:06:26You've got a thing about G, you got a
1:06:28gospel of Jesus life. We'd like that."
1:06:29And they copied that. Then somebody
1:06:30copied that copy and somebody copied
1:06:32that copy. And you don't we don't have
1:06:34any of those copies. What we have are
1:06:37copies from hundreds of years later. Our
1:06:39first complete uh copy of the Gospel of
1:06:43Matthew dates from about the year 370.
1:06:46So about 300 years of people copying it
1:06:49and then copying the copies and copying
1:06:51the copies of the copies. And the
1:06:52problem and that's true of all the books
1:06:54of the New Testament. uh all the books
1:06:56of the New Testament are in the same
1:06:58situation where we don't have a complete
1:07:00copy for 300 years or so. Um and um I
1:07:05should say that that's not just dealing
1:07:08that's just not a biblical thing. That's
1:07:10true of every book from the ancient
1:07:11world. [laughter]
1:07:12It's just it's just the way it was in
1:07:14the ancient world. And so that's how it
1:07:17is. Uh the problem is we have so many
1:07:19copies of Matthew and the other books of
1:07:21the New Testament. We can compare them
1:07:23with each other and there are
1:07:24differences among them as you pointed
1:07:26out. Uh there are hundreds of thousands
1:07:28of differences among the manuscripts
1:07:30where what a verse will be worded one
1:07:32way in one manuscript it'll be worded a
1:07:34different way in another manuscript.
1:07:36Most of these differences are completely
1:07:39insignificant. They don't matter for
1:07:41anything. Um the majority the if you had
1:07:44to count the most common difference it's
1:07:45misspelled words. You [laughter] know
1:07:48who cares? And so a lot of differences
1:07:50don't matter. Most of the differences
1:07:52don't matter. Some differences do
1:07:54matter. Some differences matter a whole
1:07:57lot. And some of those differences that
1:07:59matter a whole lot, you we can't even
1:08:01decide which what the original said. But
1:08:04scholars compare these various
1:08:06manuscripts to one another. And they
1:08:08figure out based on these comparisons
1:08:12and a number of
1:08:14factors what probably was what the
1:08:17author originally wrote. Again, this
1:08:19isn't just a New Testament thing. It
1:08:21happens for the Old Testament. It
1:08:23happens for Homer. It happens for
1:08:25Virgil. It happens for Shakespeare. It
1:08:28happens for Wdsworth. It it happens for
1:08:30every author uh where you have to figure
1:08:32out the original because you have copies
1:08:33that differ from each other. Um so
1:08:36there's that. Once you know what you
1:08:39pretty sure is probably the original,
1:08:41say of Matthew, okay, you know what the
1:08:43original is. That doesn't tell you
1:08:45whether the original was right or not.
1:08:48>> [laughter]
1:08:49>> you just know what Matthew wrote or you
1:08:51you have a pretty good idea that you
1:08:52think you know what Matthew wrote.
1:08:54Whether what he wrote is right or not is
1:08:56a different matter. Um the illustration
1:08:59I often give of this is in the modern
1:09:01world. When when Hitler wrote mine comp,
1:09:05we don't have much doubt about what he
1:09:06wrote. There are millions of copies of
1:09:08it.
1:09:10So you know what he wrote. Does that
1:09:12mean that what he wrote is right?
1:09:14[laughter] No. It just means you know
1:09:15what he wrote. And so I say that because
1:09:18I don't know if this is true in Mormon
1:09:20circles, but in uh conservative uh
1:09:23Christian evangelical Protestant
1:09:25circles, um there's a you hear this
1:09:28claim often that since we have so many
1:09:30manuscripts of the New Testament more
1:09:32[clears throat] than any other book from
1:09:33the ancient world, we know that what
1:09:34what the New Testament is true.
1:09:37It doesn't mean that at all. It just
1:09:39means you know what they wrote. Whether
1:09:40what they wrote is true or not is a
1:09:42different question. So um so that's the
1:09:45manuscripts. whether Jesus delivered on
1:09:47the sermon on the mount that's another
1:09:48problem that has to be solved on the
1:09:50basis and um I think most scholars think
1:09:53no there I mean just with the sermon on
1:09:56the mount it's three chapters long um
1:09:58Jesus talks for three chapters uh with
1:10:01lots of oneliners and parables and
1:10:03Matthew's writing his account 55 years
1:10:06later
1:10:07so what I do with my students I ask them
1:10:09did you hear the last inaugural address
1:10:11year ago yeah I heard it okay write it
1:10:14down
1:10:16What? They have no idea. Of course not.
1:10:19If Jesus gave a sermon like that, who
1:10:20wrote it? Nobody wrote it down. And 50
1:10:22years later, somebody living in a
1:10:24different part of the world writing in a
1:10:25different language actually could do it
1:10:26word for word. What? [laughter] So, it's
1:10:29a different question though from the
1:10:30manuscripts.
1:10:33>> And and Bart, have I heard you say
1:10:34previously and or today in this
1:10:37interview that many of the books of the
1:10:41New Test of the Gospels, many of the
1:10:43four gospels were written generations
1:10:47after the person whose name is on the
1:10:50particular gospel actually would have
1:10:52lived. In other words, they were passed
1:10:53down through oral tradition for at least
1:10:57one, two, or three generations before
1:10:59they were actually written down. Do I
1:11:01have that right?
1:11:02>> Yeah. I mean, it depends how you date
1:11:04everything, but scholars typically date
1:11:06the Gospel of Mark to around the year
1:11:0870. Uh maybe just after the year 70
1:11:11because it looks like he knows about the
1:11:13about Jerusalem being destroyed in the
1:11:14year 70. Ma Luke and Matthew are about
1:11:1810 or 15 years after that in the mid
1:11:2080s. And uh John is usually thought to
1:11:23be 95 or so. And so just with John as a
1:11:26key example, the Gospel of John reports
1:11:28many of the sayings of Jesus, but it
1:11:30looks like this had to be written around
1:11:32the year 95. Uh John, there's Jesus,
1:11:36disciple John was an adult when Jesus
1:11:38called him to be his disciple in the
1:11:41late 20s. [clears throat] There's no way
1:11:42he's raised around in the in the in the
1:11:44mid '9s. He's not alive then. So that's
1:11:48so these stories were are written by
1:11:51these authors and if if there are
1:11:54earlier they're our earliest surviving
1:11:56gospels there may have been earlier
1:11:58gospels but if so we don't have them the
1:12:00way people knew about Jesus was not by
1:12:02written gospels most people couldn't
1:12:04read anyway people are telling stories
1:12:06about Jesus that's how Christianity is
1:12:08spreading by people telling stories if
1:12:11somebody in Ephesus in the year 80 has
1:12:14heard about Jesus he's heard stories
1:12:16about Jesus that have been circulating
1:12:18throughout the Roman world from Israel
1:12:21to Ephesus far away in a different
1:12:24language translated from Aramaic. And so
1:12:26these are these books are all based on
1:12:28oral traditions, stories people have
1:12:30told and retold and retold. Not only do
1:12:32the manuscripts get changed by scribes,
1:12:34but before that, we all know what
1:12:37happens to oral stories when they're
1:12:38told from one person to the next. Man,
1:12:40they they can change a lot. But those
1:12:42are the stories the gospel writers had
1:12:43heard.
1:12:45And then can you just tell us for for
1:12:48those who are just like you're already
1:12:49blowing their mind kind of like your
1:12:52mind was originally blown that the New
1:12:54Testament contradicts itself that um
1:12:58that the sequencing
1:13:00understanding the sequence of when each
1:13:02of the gospels was written helps us
1:13:04understand it better but also explain
1:13:06some of these contradictions or errors
1:13:08or problems. maybe pick three to five of
1:13:11of some really big ones in some of the
1:13:14big categories to help us understand the
1:13:16flaws or inconsistencies or errors or
1:13:20even the chronology of uh of the New
1:13:23Testament.
1:13:24>> Um well, one example I typically start
1:13:26with with my students is explaining um
1:13:29that uh in Mark and John, our first
1:13:32gospel is probably Mark, John's probably
1:13:34our last. Both of them explicitly tell
1:13:36you the day Jesus died and the hour of
1:13:39day. Um Mark uh indicates that his um
1:13:43that Jesus disciples are told to make a
1:13:46Passover meal for uh Jesus and and them.
1:13:50Uh and they do that and that so um and
1:13:54so they eat the meal that evening. They
1:13:55eat the Passover meal. It's important to
1:13:57remember that in Jewish reckoning the
1:13:59day begins when it gets dark. Still
1:14:02works that way. That's why Shabbat
1:14:03dinner, Sabbath dinner's held on Friday
1:14:05night, even though Sabbath is on
1:14:08Saturday because the day begins when it
1:14:09gets dark on Friday. Okay? So, they
1:14:12prepare a meal for Jesus. It's a uh it's
1:14:16on a Friday. Uh they prepare the meal in
1:14:18Mark and that night they may eat it. In
1:14:20other words, it's on the Passover day
1:14:22[clears throat] start and they eat the
1:14:23Passover meal. Jesus gets arrested
1:14:25afterwards, spends the night in jail.
1:14:27Next morning found guilty. He is
1:14:29crucified at 9:00 in the morning on the
1:14:31Passover day, the day after they eat the
1:14:33Passover meal. John Mark explicitly
1:14:36dates it in several verses, chapter
1:14:3814:12, 15:35, etc. Um, the Gospel of
1:14:42John also has Jesus having a last meal
1:14:45with his disciples, but it's not called
1:14:46a Passover meal. He's arrested
1:14:50afterwards and spends the night in jail
1:14:52and he's cru he's put on trial and he's
1:14:54crucified after noon. And John tells you
1:14:58that it's the day before the Passover.
1:15:02Chapter 19:14,
1:15:04it's the day when they'd be preparing
1:15:05the Passover meal that Jesus is killed.
1:15:08Well, he either got killed after the
1:15:10Passover meal was celebrated or on the
1:15:13day they were preparing to celebrate it
1:15:14that night. Can't be both. And he's
1:15:16either killed at 9 in the morning or
1:15:18afternoon. Can't wasn't put on the
1:15:19cross. And can't be both. Well, so
1:15:22what's going on there? Well, John's
1:15:23changed the story. He's changed the
1:15:26story because the Passover meal is
1:15:28commemorating the Passover lamb that was
1:15:32killed uh by, you know, in the days of
1:15:34Moses to celebrate the Exodus,
1:15:36celebrated every year, eating a Passover
1:15:39meal. Okay. Well, John thinks that Jesus
1:15:42is the Passover lamb. John's the gospel,
1:15:45the only gospel that calls Jesus the
1:15:48lamb of God that takes away the sins of
1:15:50the world. So John has changed his story
1:15:53that when Jesus dies so that he dies
1:15:57when they're killing the lambs in the
1:15:59temple in preparation for the Passover
1:16:01so that Jesus really is the Passover
1:16:03lamb. He's changed so he's he's changed
1:16:06a historical fact to make a make a
1:16:08theological point. You can do that kind
1:16:10of thing. You can find those kinds of
1:16:12differences throughout the gospels.
1:16:14Sometimes it's even more obvious. I'll
1:16:16just give you one example of that. It
1:16:18may not seem like a big deal, but it's a
1:16:20flatout contradiction. In Mark's gospel,
1:16:22the first gospel, um Jesus tells out his
1:16:26disciples to go spread the news of the
1:16:28kingdom of God. And he tells them, "Go
1:16:30heal people, cast out demons, preach the
1:16:32kingdom of God. Don't take a backpack
1:16:35with you. Don't take extra sandals.
1:16:37Don't take extra any extra money, but
1:16:39but take a staff, you know, you a
1:16:42walking staff, but take a staff." So,
1:16:44they go and they do it. Matthew has
1:16:47exactly the same story and Jesus says
1:16:50don't take a don't take a backpack don't
1:16:52take extra sandals don't take any money
1:16:54and don't take a staff [laughter]
1:16:58wait and mark says do take a staff and
1:17:00Matthew says don't take which is it ah
1:17:03well it's just you know it's a contra
1:17:05Matthew changed it Matthew changed it
1:17:07because he wanted to show even more that
1:17:10they weren't relying on anything but God
1:17:12uh and so they didn't even take a staff
1:17:14with them so you get that kind of little
1:17:16little thing. You get that kind of
1:17:18bigger thing in John and you have, you
1:17:21know, so you have you have tensions and
1:17:24contradictions. We could talk all all
1:17:26day about them. My my book Jesus
1:17:27Interrupted is a book where I really go
1:17:30into a lot of those just to show people
1:17:32how different these are. Sometimes
1:17:34flatout contradictions and sometimes
1:17:36very very different understandings of
1:17:38Jesus. I I remember studying in Mormon
1:17:42seminary as a high school student,
1:17:45realizing that Judas is killed in two
1:17:48totally different ways or dies in two
1:17:50totally different ways. Yeah. And that
1:17:53even the sign over Jesus's head, not
1:17:56only could they not get that right, just
1:17:58the the what, eight words on the sign
1:18:01over his head when he was crucified, but
1:18:03like every one of the four gospels says
1:18:07something different in terms of what the
1:18:09sign said above Jesus's head. Am I
1:18:12remembering that right? Because I
1:18:13remember struggling with this in high
1:18:14school.
1:18:15>> Well, look, you know, you need to
1:18:16remember they didn't have eyeglasses
1:18:18back then. And the four evangelists,
1:18:19man, they just they're doing their best.
1:18:21They wrote what they saw. [laughter]
1:18:23But for for the listeners, a really
1:18:25great exercise. I mentioned that thing
1:18:27about Genesis and the example you used
1:18:29is a perfect one for people want to see
1:18:31problems in the New Testament, the
1:18:33stories of Judas's death because you get
1:18:35two accounts of it. As you said, you get
1:18:37in Matthew chapter 27, you have an
1:18:40account and in Acts chapter 1, you have
1:18:42an account. And I have my students just
1:18:44list what happens and then try and
1:18:47figure out. So if people do that, you
1:18:49you'll find you'll find out that you
1:18:52know in people think of Jesus going out
1:18:54and hanging himself. That's what you get
1:18:56in Matthew.
1:18:57In the book of Acts, Judas does not hang
1:18:59himself. He falls headlong onto the
1:19:02ground and his intestines spill out over
1:19:04the earth.
1:19:06In Matthew, the priests buy the field
1:19:11that he's going to hang himself on with
1:19:13the money that Jesus that Judas has
1:19:16returned, the 30 pieces of silver. In
1:19:18Acts, Judas bought the bought the field
1:19:22himself.
1:19:23In Matthew, it's called the field of
1:19:25blood because it was purchased with
1:19:28blood money. The money of a betrayal
1:19:31that led to Jesus death. Blood money. In
1:19:33Acts, it's called that. It's called the
1:19:35field of blood because Judas bled all
1:19:36over it. [laughter]
1:19:38So you can, you know, people try to
1:19:40reconcile these two. You cannot
1:19:42reconcile these two in my my opinion.
1:19:44And so it's another Yeah, it's another
1:19:46great example. And would you and some
1:19:48would say, well, those are trivial
1:19:50examples. They all, you know, he died.
1:19:52It doesn't matter how Judas died, he
1:19:53died. Or if the words on the sign above
1:19:56Jesus's, you know, head on the cross say
1:19:59different things. They basically all say
1:20:01here here is the king of the Jews or the
1:20:03supposed king of the Jews. Are there
1:20:06important doctrinal or theological
1:20:10differences? And maybe more importantly,
1:20:14does Jesus's role or power or divinity
1:20:18change? Uh and and some would argue like
1:20:22the fish story, the fish gets bigger
1:20:24with each subsequent account, right?
1:20:28Does any of that happen where actually
1:20:29the nature of Jesus changes over time?
1:20:34>> Um well the answer to both questions is
1:20:36yes. Uh in my case as with many other
1:20:39cases um what what made me understand
1:20:43that there could be diff like big
1:20:45differences. I I could easily reconcile
1:20:48big differences when I was a
1:20:49conservative evangelical. For me it was
1:20:52a little detail that did it. This thing
1:20:54about was Abby Alar the high priest or
1:20:56not. It's like a little It's like a
1:20:58in the armor. So, um
1:21:02once you get a lot of chinks in your
1:21:04armor, you start realizing there's
1:21:05something going on here. There are big
1:21:07differences of theology and big
1:21:10differences of the understanding of
1:21:11Jesus among the gospels. Let me give you
1:21:13an example of each. Um almost uh nearly
1:21:18every Christian um that I've ever known
1:21:20um says that Jesus died for your sins.
1:21:24This is the teaching of um Matthew and
1:21:27Mark and John and Paul and virtually all
1:21:31the authors of the New Testament that
1:21:33Jesus death brought an atonement for
1:21:35sins. However you understand what an
1:21:37atonement is, Jesus death put you right
1:21:40with God somehow.
1:21:42Um and in most of these authors, it's
1:21:45because it's a sacrifice for sins. It's
1:21:47a substitution for your death. Christ
1:21:49died in your place for you.
1:21:53The gospel of Luke does not have that
1:21:55idea.
1:21:57Luke's gospels usually under almost
1:21:59always it's almost always understood to
1:22:01have been have copied Mark for part of
1:22:03his stories for some of his stories. Um
1:22:06every place in Mark's gospel that Mark
1:22:09indicates Jesus death was an atonement
1:22:12for sins that he sacrificed his life for
1:22:15others. Luke gets rid of that. He
1:22:18doesn't copy those parts. In fact, he
1:22:21just takes them out of verses that he
1:22:22has otherwise.
1:22:24And in the book of Acts, written by the
1:22:26same author, Luke, uh, whoever whatever
1:22:29his name was, the same author wrote both
1:22:31the gospel and Acts. That's not much
1:22:33debated among anybody. Um, even I mean,
1:22:37even conservatives evs,
1:22:41the apostles are trying to convert
1:22:43people to to to become followers of
1:22:45Jesus. And they give sermons, chapter 2,
1:22:48chapter 13, etc. And when they give
1:22:51these sermons, they never talk about
1:22:53Jesus death being for your sins.
1:22:56They say Jesus was unjustly killed. He
1:23:01was a righteous man and you are
1:23:03responsible for killing him and you
1:23:06better repent or you're going to be
1:23:07judged.
1:23:09Luke's view is that if you turn to God
1:23:13because you realize how sinful you are
1:23:15and you repent of your sins, he will
1:23:17forgive you. His view is not that you
1:23:20need somebody else to have be a
1:23:21sacrifice for your sins.
1:23:24That's a pretty big difference. Does
1:23:26Luke have a doctrine of the atonement?
1:23:28Does he think that Jesus had to die for
1:23:30the sins of the world? No. The others
1:23:33do. Well, why did Jesus die? That's big.
1:23:36That's big. The second question you have
1:23:39about Jesus identity that of course it
1:23:41relates to that. But here's another big
1:23:43deal. Um, people naturally think that
1:23:47Jesus called himself and considered
1:23:50himself to be a divine being, that Jesus
1:23:52was God and he called himself God.
1:23:56And that's pretty much true for the
1:23:58Gospel of John.
1:24:01He never talks about himself as a divine
1:24:04being in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
1:24:08What? Yeah. all of the in John John in
1:24:12John Jesus says things like I and the
1:24:15father are one John 10:10 or um before
1:24:20Abraham was I am so he existed before
1:24:25Abraham and he uses the name of God I am
1:24:28Jew in the story the Jews know exactly
1:24:31what he's saying they take up stones to
1:24:32stone him to death both times because
1:24:34they know that he's claiming to be God
1:24:36in chapter 14:9 he's talking to his
1:24:38disciples And um he says, "If you have
1:24:42seen me, you have seen the father." Wow.
1:24:46Okay. These are really quite exalted
1:24:48claims and they're not found in any of
1:24:52the other gospels. Jesus does not talk
1:24:55about himself in Matthew, Mark, and Luke
1:24:58except b the main thing he says in
1:25:00Matthew, Mark, and Luke is that he has
1:25:01to go to Jerusalem to get crucified, but
1:25:04he does not talk about himself as God at
1:25:07all. Uh, and so, you know, if you're
1:25:09kind of doing a little thought
1:25:10experiment and you're thinking about
1:25:12Matthew, Mark, and Luke, why wouldn't
1:25:14they have him like say that he's God, if
1:25:17they knew that he said that he was God?
1:25:19I mean, if if you're writing a gospel
1:25:21about Jesus and you know that he called
1:25:23himself God, like why wouldn't you
1:25:25include that part? It seems like that'd
1:25:27be a pretty important lesson to learn is
1:25:29that Jesus thought he was God. You just
1:25:31leave it out because it's all Yeah,
1:25:32that's not very important. Leave out
1:25:34that little bit. [laughter] No, they had
1:25:37not heard this.
1:25:39John is our last gospel.
1:25:42By the time John's written, people have
1:25:44increased their understanding of Jesus.
1:25:46It's elevated to become a more elevated
1:25:48understanding of Jesus. Now, Jesus was
1:25:50not just a human messiah who fulfilled
1:25:52God's will by dying for the sins of the
1:25:54world. He's God. Whoa. But that's only
1:25:58John.
1:26:01>> Colby, you got a followup.
1:26:02>> I do. I have a question about uh John or
1:26:05a development in John uh Dr. Man that I
1:26:08learned from you. So, one of the one of
1:26:10the stories when I was a believing
1:26:12Christian uh as a Mormon that was so
1:26:14foundational to Jesus Christ's
1:26:16character, like who I thought Jesus was,
1:26:18was the story in John chapter 8 of the
1:26:20woman taken in adultery. And I was
1:26:23surprised to learn, and hopefully you
1:26:24can recap or correct me where I don't
1:26:26understand this um exactly right, but I
1:26:29was surprised to learn that our earliest
1:26:32manuscripts do not have the story of the
1:26:34woman taken in adultery. Can you maybe
1:26:36speak to whether I have that right and
1:26:38when we do see that story basically be
1:26:41added to later manuscripts of the Gospel
1:26:44of John?
1:26:45>> Yeah, I'm happy to address that. It
1:26:47relates to Koi's question earlier about
1:26:48the manuscripts because there I was
1:26:50talking about the differences among the
1:26:52manuscripts. Um, and boy, this is a big
1:26:55one. So, the story of the woman taken in
1:26:57adultery. I I suppose listeners all know
1:26:59this. I mean, this woman's been caught
1:27:01in the act of adultery. She's dragged
1:27:02before Jesus by Jewish leaders who say
1:27:04that the law of Moses says we're
1:27:06supposed to stone her to death. What do
1:27:08you say? So they're setting this trap
1:27:10for him because if he says um um yeah,
1:27:14stone her to death, then he's violating
1:27:17his his own teachings of love and mercy.
1:27:20But if he says, "No, don't stone her."
1:27:21Then he's breaking the law of Moses. So
1:27:23what's he supposed to do? And so but
1:27:25Jesus has a way of getting out of these
1:27:27things and he stoops down. He starts
1:27:28writing on the ground. We don't know
1:27:29what he's writing. He's actually writing
1:27:31something. He's not just doodling. He's
1:27:32writing something. Lots of theories
1:27:34about what he was supposed to be
1:27:35writing. And he stands up and he says,
1:27:38"Let the one without sin among you be
1:27:39the first to cast a stone at her." And
1:27:42stoops down, starts writing again. And
1:27:44one by one, the Jewish authorities
1:27:46realize they too are sinful. And so they
1:27:48they walk away until she alone is left.
1:27:50Then Jesus says, "I don't forgive you
1:27:52either. Go and sin no more." So it's a
1:27:55beautiful story. It's a great story.
1:27:57It's probably the best known story in
1:27:58the Gospels. I say that because it's in
1:28:00every Hollywood movie about Jesus, no
1:28:02matter what. Um, so the deal is though
1:28:06that it uh it was certainly not in the
1:28:09original uh New Test in the original
1:28:12Gospel of John or anywhere else in the
1:28:14Gospels. Um, this is not much of a
1:28:16debated point among scholars. I actually
1:28:18knew this when I was a conservative
1:28:20evangelical at Moody Bible Institute.
1:28:22Um, I realized, wow, that one wasn't in
1:28:24there. And the the lot the there are
1:28:26lots of reasons for knowing that it does
1:28:28occur in one fifth century manuscript uh
1:28:31codeex bay but it's not in any of the
1:28:34other uh Greek manuscripts. Uh it's so
1:28:37it's in it's in one manuscript that's
1:28:39known to be a really kind of wild wild
1:28:41manuscript and in some Latin uh
1:28:44manuscripts later. Um so it's not in our
1:28:47earliest and best manuscripts. It's not
1:28:49you don't have it in manuscripts. you
1:28:51and you don't until much later until
1:28:53many many years later centuries later
1:28:56and um we have we have Greek uh authors
1:29:00Christian authors who write commentaries
1:29:01on the gospel of John um starting
1:29:04starting in the 3rd century we have
1:29:06Christian commentaries you who comment
1:29:08on every passage John and this passage
1:29:11is not mentioned until the 12th century
1:29:14[laughter] in a in a Greek commentary on
1:29:15John they didn't know about it and so
1:29:17it's something that was added uh in the
1:29:19middle ages Some people think that maybe
1:29:21it was like a um a marginal note like a
1:29:24scribe came along at some point and
1:29:26thought you know this passage in John
1:29:28chapter 7 and 8. It's about how you have
1:29:30to judge righteously and and how Jesus
1:29:33is a righteous judge. And you know, I
1:29:35heard the story and he writes the story
1:29:36in the margin, right? And then the next
1:29:38scribe comes along and sees the story in
1:29:40the margin says, "Oh, you know, the guy
1:29:41who wrote this made this manuscript 20
1:29:43years ago, he left the story out." So,
1:29:45he puts it in the puts it in. Then the
1:29:47next guy copies it in there and it goes
1:29:49like that. Um, so it was not originally
1:29:52in the New Testament. That is not a much
1:29:54debated point. Um, and um, you know, but
1:29:58you are right. I mean, it is a beautiful
1:30:00story that does illustrate one aspect of
1:30:03how people uh think about Jesus, and I,
1:30:06you know, I'm all for the story, but it
1:30:09wasn't originally in the Bible.
1:30:13Bart, help us understand the evidence.
1:30:16Like, for a lot of people, the most
1:30:17important thing in the whole Bible is
1:30:19the resurrection of Jesus. So, you've
1:30:22already established that uh that that
1:30:25the New Testament is based on someone
1:30:27who actually lived a Jesus of Nazareth a
1:30:31couple thousand years ago.
1:30:33How is the evidence for an actual
1:30:36resurrection of Jesus?
1:30:38This is a particular problem that's
1:30:40related to the problem of all the
1:30:42miracles uh in the Bible. [snorts] Uh
1:30:45specifically with the resurrection,
1:30:46here's another exercise I have my
1:30:48students do. This one I of all the
1:30:51exercises I've suggest you do, Genesis,
1:30:53Judas, uh now this. Um this is the one I
1:30:58recommend the most. Go through each
1:31:00gospel and list what happens and compare
1:31:02your lists. See what's similar among the
1:31:06four. See what's different among the
1:31:09four and see if there are any
1:31:10differences that cannot be reconciled.
1:31:14Um so I have two comments about the
1:31:16resurrection. One is that the accounts
1:31:18are hopelessly contradictory
1:31:21and second that even if they were
1:31:24consistent
1:31:25there's not it doesn't make historical
1:31:28sense to talk about proof for the
1:31:30resurrection. So let me deal with the
1:31:32first thing first and we can follow the
1:31:34other one if you're interested. The
1:31:35first one is um when you make your list
1:31:38um so Jesus in all the gospels Jesus
1:31:40dies on a Friday afternoon and on a
1:31:43Sunday morning his tomb is discovered to
1:31:45be empty. Um, so, uh, ask yourself how,
1:31:50uh, how many women go to the tomb? What
1:31:53are their names? What do they see there?
1:31:57Who do they see there? Do they see? So,
1:31:59is there one woman? Is it Mary
1:32:01Magdalene? Is it several women? If
1:32:03several women, what are their names?
1:32:05When they get there, has the stone been
1:32:07rolled away already or not? Depends
1:32:11which gospel you read. How many women
1:32:13are they? What are they called? Do they
1:32:15see do they see one? Do they see a man
1:32:18there? Do they see two men there? Do
1:32:21they see two angels there? Do they see
1:32:23what do they see there? What are they
1:32:25told there? Are they told uh something
1:32:28that Jesus had told them in Galilee or
1:32:30are they told that the disciples are
1:32:32supposed to go to Galilee? If they tell
1:32:35if they're told to tell the disciples to
1:32:36go to Galilee, do they tell the
1:32:38disciples or do they tell nobody?
1:32:40Depends which gospel you read. If they
1:32:42tell the disciples, do the disciples go
1:32:44to Galilee? Depends which gospel you
1:32:46read. Luke is quite clear. He's explicit
1:32:50that Jesus uh is raised from the dead on
1:32:53Sunday. He meets with several of his
1:32:56disciples. Then he meets with all of the
1:32:57disciples on that day. And at the end of
1:33:01his the end of the chapter on the same
1:33:03day, he he ascends to heaven. His
1:33:08instructions to them, he meets them in
1:33:10Jerusalem. He sees them in Jerusalem.
1:33:12They're all in Jerusalem, explicitly in
1:33:13Jerusalem. And he tells them, "Don't
1:33:14leave Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit
1:33:17comes upon you." And that's in Luke's
1:33:19second volume, chapter 2 of Acts. The
1:33:22Holy Spirit comes upon them on the day
1:33:24of Pentecost 50 days later. They've been
1:33:26in Jerusalem the entire time. Month and
1:33:28a half, more than Yeah. a month and a
1:33:29half when it and they stay in Jerusalem.
1:33:32Matthew's gospel, they go up to
1:33:34Jerusalem. They go up to Galilee. They
1:33:37leave Jerusalem right away. They go up
1:33:39to Galilee. They meet Jesus in Galilee.
1:33:41And that's where Jesus instructs them
1:33:42and leaves. Did they go to Galilee or
1:33:44not? Depends which gospel you read. Did
1:33:46the women tell anybody or not? Depends
1:33:48which gospel you read. So hopelessly
1:33:51contradictory, which calls into question
1:33:53their validity, their value as
1:33:55historical sources. They're all telling
1:33:57stories and try to emphasize things
1:33:59differently.
1:34:01Um, if it's okay with you, I'll tell you
1:34:03the the other bigger problem. [laughter]
1:34:05>> Sure, please. with with with
1:34:09when you talk about was Jesus raised
1:34:11from the dead my view is that that is a
1:34:15um that's a issue of faith not a issue
1:34:19of history
1:34:20if something like that did happen
1:34:23historically
1:34:25because of the nature of how historians
1:34:28go about doing their business of
1:34:30reconstructing the past there's no way
1:34:32to show that something like that
1:34:35happened so That sounds kind of
1:34:37confusing, but let me explain.
1:34:39Historians cannot show everything that
1:34:41happened in the past. 99.9999%
1:34:45of the past cannot be recovered. We just
1:34:48have no evidence for it. No evidence for
1:34:50it. When historians try to figure out
1:34:53what happened in the past, they have to
1:34:54figure out what's the most likely thing
1:34:56to have happened. You know, you got
1:34:58somebody saying this, somebody saying
1:34:59that, somebody saying the other thing.
1:35:01We got this physical evidence and that
1:35:02physical evidence. It's like doing a
1:35:04court case. You got all this evidence
1:35:05and and the jury has to decide and
1:35:07there's probabilities and you have to
1:35:09weigh the probabilities.
1:35:11What is the probability of a divine
1:35:15intervention into the natural order?
1:35:19If historians can only establish what
1:35:21probably happened in the past,
1:35:23historians have to work within the realm
1:35:25of what's possible given what we know
1:35:27about the world.
1:35:29Um,
1:35:31it is highly, look, it'd be highly
1:35:33unlikely that somebody was raised from
1:35:35the dead, right? I mean, everybody would
1:35:36agree it's highly unlikely. There have
1:35:38been, since Homo sapiens appeared
1:35:39300,000 years ago, Christians think that
1:35:42there's been one person that that's
1:35:43happened to, there's been about 115
1:35:46billion people alive. So, what are the
1:35:48chance if you're just looking at
1:35:49chances? Well, the chance is one out of
1:35:50115 billion. Okay. Um, so, um, what kind
1:35:56of evidence would you look for? The
1:35:58evidence we have,
1:36:00our first piece of evidence comes about
1:36:0225 years later in the writings of Paul
1:36:05who says he saw Jesus.
1:36:08Which is more likely that the laws of
1:36:10nature were broken
1:36:12or that Paul mistook what he saw? How
1:36:15often are the laws of nature broken?
1:36:18Well, they're called laws because
1:36:19they're never broken. They've never been
1:36:21recorded as breaking like in under
1:36:22scientific experience. Never. What are
1:36:25the chances somebody misaw something,
1:36:27misunderstood what he saw, uh had a had
1:36:30some kind of dream, had a vision? What's
1:36:31the chances that? Well, that happens all
1:36:32the time. Well, which is more likely
1:36:34then? Well, yeah, but all the disciples
1:36:37saw him. Did they? Um, what's our record
1:36:40of that? Do we have any of them saying
1:36:42that? No. The only person who says it is
1:36:44Paul. We have later gospels that talk
1:36:46about it, the disciples seeing Jesus.
1:36:49Gospels written decades later by people
1:36:51who weren't there who didn't know the
1:36:52apostles who have heard these things by
1:36:54by oral traditions. And so we have
1:36:56records of people claiming to see see
1:36:59Jesus and records of people claiming to
1:37:01see the a tomb empty. Well, do stories
1:37:04ever get started? Does gossip ever
1:37:05start? Do rumors ever start? Do stories
1:37:07get changed in the retelling? Do what?
1:37:10If you're a historian who just wants to
1:37:12know the facts,
1:37:14if you're a Christian and you think it
1:37:16happened, you say, "I believe it
1:37:17happened. I believe it happened. The
1:37:20historian cannot show it happened
1:37:22because any other explanation is more
1:37:24likely as long as it doesn't break the
1:37:26laws of nature. [laughter]
1:37:27So, um that's the dilemma. If you're
1:37:31talking about did it probably happened,
1:37:33if you mean historically, well, no, of
1:37:34course not. If you think did it happen,
1:37:37then um well, if you believe it
1:37:39happened, then you believe it happened.
1:37:40But it's not based on historical proof.
1:37:42There is no historical proof that would
1:37:44that would be satisfying.
1:37:47Love it. Cole, you've got a question
1:37:49about uh the the documents that didn't
1:37:52make it into the New Testament, the
1:37:53Apocryphal uh manuscripts. Is that
1:37:56right?
1:37:57>> So, how would our understanding of Jesus
1:38:00and his character be different if some
1:38:04of these apocryphal books would have
1:38:05made it in the final cut?
1:38:08>> Yeah.
1:38:08>> And tell us first what an apocryphal
1:38:10book is for those who don't know.
1:38:12So there are um you know there are books
1:38:14we have 27 books in the New Testament um
1:38:18that uh are either claimed to claim to
1:38:20be written by apostles like Paul or are
1:38:22said to have been written by apostle
1:38:24Paul like Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
1:38:26Um and so uh there are lots of books
1:38:28that were written by Christians. Some of
1:38:30them claiming to be written by apostles
1:38:32that were not included in the New
1:38:33Testament. We have uh Gospel of Peter,
1:38:36Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of uh
1:38:38Philip, Gospel of Mary, etc., etc. these
1:38:41were not included. And um Koi's question
1:38:43is if they were included, how would that
1:38:46have changed our view of Jesus? Um and
1:38:50it's a great question. It's a question a
1:38:51lot of people uh are asking these days.
1:38:54It's a question much on my mind because
1:38:56it's what my next book is on that I'm
1:38:59starting to work on. And it's the
1:39:01questions I'm doing. It's a question I'm
1:39:02doing on my uh in I'm this morning I was
1:39:06thinking about it because I'm holding a
1:39:07conference on this question in
1:39:08September. I have this just a little
1:39:11plug. I have this thing called um um
1:39:14paths in biblical studies that produces
1:39:16online courses and those online
1:39:17conferences. I'm going to do a big
1:39:18conference just on this question about
1:39:20the books that didn't make it in uh in
1:39:22September. So if people are interested
1:39:24in this stuff, just look me up on the
1:39:25web and you'll see my website with
1:39:27courses and conferences and stuff. But
1:39:29I'm getting the best scholars in the
1:39:30world on this question to talk about it.
1:39:32And koi, it completely depends on which
1:39:35of these gospels would have been
1:39:37included because these gospels um so you
1:39:41know I'm saying that each of the gospels
1:39:43in the New Testament are different from
1:39:44each other. You know, Matthew's
1:39:45different from Luke and John's different
1:39:47from ma Mark etc. They're all different,
1:39:49but they're more like each other than
1:39:52any of them is like any of these other
1:39:54gospels that did not make it in. So I'll
1:39:57say that. And if the gospel of Thomas
1:39:59was let in, that would create a very
1:40:02different view from what you get in
1:40:03Mark. But if it wasn't let in, but the
1:40:07gospel of Philip was let in, it'd have a
1:40:09very different view. The gospel of Mary,
1:40:11Mary Magdalene, if that was led in, and
1:40:14so it would just depend. A lot of these
1:40:16gospels are called Gnostic Gospels.
1:40:19Gnosticism was a form of Christianity
1:40:21that was popular in the second century
1:40:23in the third into the third century that
1:40:26understood that the death of Jesus is
1:40:28not what brings salvation. What brings
1:40:31salvation is understanding his secret
1:40:33teachings.
1:40:35And these gospels sometimes lay out his
1:40:38secret teachings about where where the
1:40:41how the world came into being and how we
1:40:43got here and how we can get out of here,
1:40:45how we can be saved. And so depending
1:40:48which of these gospels gets in, it
1:40:50changes our views of things. But um some
1:40:52of these gospels have radically uh
1:40:54different views. Others of them, other
1:40:56gospels that did not make it in have
1:40:59views that are very similar to what we
1:41:01get in the New Testament, but but
1:41:02different in key ways that church
1:41:03fathers didn't appreciate. And so our
1:41:06cannon of 27 books, this is what my next
1:41:08book is on is how we got these 27 books.
1:41:11Who decided, when they decided, on what
1:41:14grounds did they decide? So, there are
1:41:17lots of books kind of like that out
1:41:18there already, but I'm going to be
1:41:19focusing especially on what kind of
1:41:21arguments were they having about like
1:41:23why did Revelation get in? You know,
1:41:25shouldn't they have left that one out?
1:41:27Or like, yeah, man, I don't know. I'm
1:41:29I'm not sure about Mark. It just seems
1:41:30like a condensed version of Matthew.
1:41:31Why'd that get in? You know, so I'm
1:41:33going to be dealing with the arguments
1:41:35about it in this book. Ky, I hope that I
1:41:38hope that answered your question.
1:41:40>> Ky, go ahead and ask your next question
1:41:41about Bart's intentions. I think that's
1:41:43a really important uh thing to get out
1:41:45on the table.
1:41:47>> Yeah. So, um many of the critics that uh
1:41:52are trying to understand where you're
1:41:54coming from, you know, and I've shared a
1:41:56lot of your work with, you know, friends
1:41:58and family. Um often I hear that they
1:42:01think that your intention would be to
1:42:03tear down belief or to tear down um
1:42:06faith in Jesus. And my observation in,
1:42:10you know, observing many of your debates
1:42:11and reading your books is that you're
1:42:14more interested in the truth of what was
1:42:16written, the truth of what, you know,
1:42:18you you even mentioned in your last
1:42:20lecture that two billion people believe
1:42:23the Bible to be scripture and it does
1:42:26matter how we interpret that. Um, so I
1:42:29wonder if you can speak to what your
1:42:31intentions are and what your desires are
1:42:34in your work um, in answering these
1:42:36critics that think you're just out there
1:42:38an antichrist or anti-, you know,
1:42:41belief.
1:42:42Right. Well, thank you, Co. I'm glad you
1:42:44asked the question. Um I I have heard um
1:42:48I have had um
1:42:51people I've debated, I won't name any
1:42:53names, who have claimed that my in I
1:42:57begin my classes at Chapel Hill by
1:42:59saying that my goal is to deconvert
1:43:01people.
1:43:02And that's just a flatout lie. Um, and
1:43:06[laughter] the interesting thing is
1:43:08there was a conservative evangelical
1:43:10apologist who who said that that he had
1:43:12talked with somebody who flat out said
1:43:13that he was in my class and that's what
1:43:15I said. I told him it's absolutely not
1:43:17true. And he said, "Well, I have an
1:43:19eyewitness." I said, "Yeah, [laughter]
1:43:21that'll show you something about
1:43:22eyewitnesses because I'm going to tell
1:43:23you, you can interview any of my
1:43:24students that, you know, in my classes
1:43:26this semester, any semester, I
1:43:28explicitly state I am not interested in
1:43:31deconverting anybody. Uh, I'm not
1:43:34interested in deconverting them from
1:43:36what they believe. I'm not interested
1:43:37them converting them to what I believe
1:43:39or what I think. I'm interested in
1:43:41getting them to think. Um, and so that
1:43:45is that is absolutely my goal. And I
1:43:48have that goal with my atheist students.
1:43:53I don't I don't try to confirm what they
1:43:55think or not. I want them to think as
1:43:57well. And so I [clears throat] want
1:43:59everybody to think. And so, um, I think
1:44:02the one problem with with religion
1:44:04generally is that people believe what
1:44:06they were raised to believe. You're
1:44:08you're born into a family and your
1:44:10family often parents will have beliefs
1:44:12and you're you're taken to a religious
1:44:14institution. You're raised and that's
1:44:16just seems common sense to you and you
1:44:18never even like think about it much. Um
1:44:22but you know when it comes to the Bible
1:44:24which is uh as you said I mean there are
1:44:27over two billion Christians in the world
1:44:28and the Bible is the foundation of it.
1:44:31Not there are a lot of people who never
1:44:33read the Bible who believe in it. There
1:44:35are a lot of people who read the Bible
1:44:36and don't read it very carefully. There
1:44:38are very few people who know what
1:44:40experts who spent their entire lives
1:44:42studying this book say about it.
1:44:45Most of the things that I teach in my
1:44:47classes, uh, most of the things that I
1:44:50write about, most things I talk about
1:44:52when I give public lectures, um, most of
1:44:54those things are things that I either
1:44:56learned or had the basis for when I was
1:44:59attending a Christian theological
1:45:01seminary that was training pastors in
1:45:03the Presbyterian church.
1:45:05Um, and so, you know, the idea that
1:45:07there are contradictions, the idea that
1:45:09John is the only one that reports to
1:45:10Jesus claiming to be divine, the idea
1:45:12that the accounts of Judas are at odds
1:45:14with each other, the idea that you have
1:45:16to read each book for its own meaning,
1:45:18the idea that you can't simply assume
1:45:20that every book's saying the same thing.
1:45:21Like all of these things are things that
1:45:23are taught at high level divinity
1:45:25schools and seminaries that are training
1:45:26ministers, Christian ministers. These
1:45:29are views that are held by Christians,
1:45:32uh, Christian scholars. uh of the Bible.
1:45:36Almost all New Testament scholars are
1:45:37Christians. Not all of them. There are
1:45:40some Jews, some very fine Jewish
1:45:42scholars of the New Testament. There are
1:45:44a few atheists and agnostics. Most are
1:45:46Christians. And um most hold, it's not
1:45:49they hold every view that I hold. I
1:45:51mean, scholars disagree on everything.
1:45:53If scholars didn't disagree on
1:45:54everything, you just need one scholar to
1:45:56write all the books. [laughter] That'd
1:45:58be fine. But so I disagree with scholars
1:46:01on lots of things, but I am not out to
1:46:03destroy anybody's faith. Um, if they
1:46:06look at the things that I talk about and
1:46:08they agree with me and it it challenges
1:46:10their faith, then they need to decide
1:46:12what to do. I absolutely don't encourage
1:46:15people. I tell my stu, you know, every
1:46:17now and then I'll have a student ask me
1:46:19if I'm trying to, you know, destroy
1:46:20their faith. And I, you'd be crazy if
1:46:22you take a semester course and leave
1:46:23your faith. I mean, you you know, you're
1:46:2520 years old here. You've been thinking
1:46:26this for 20 years and now on the basis
1:46:28of a few like a couple months you're
1:46:30going to leave it. What [laughter] you
1:46:32if you you should think about it for a
1:46:33while please. And so no I I absolutely
1:46:36have no intention. I do have the
1:46:39intention of attacking fundamentalism
1:46:42because I think it's dangerous and I
1:46:45think it does more harm when people are
1:46:47so self assured that they are absolutely
1:46:50right that the Bible is inherent and
1:46:53therefore they can um condemn people who
1:46:56are not like them because they're
1:46:58getting their cues from the Bible about
1:47:00how they should be. Um I I'm very much
1:47:03against any form of fundamentalism but
1:47:06I'm not against reasoned faith. So, I'm
1:47:08not trying to destroy people's faith. If
1:47:10they have faith, I want them. I think
1:47:11it's better. My my typical view is that
1:47:15I think if you decide to leave the
1:47:17faith, you should do it for reasons. If
1:47:19you decide to stay in the faith, you
1:47:21should do it for reasons. And that it's
1:47:23better to have reasons, which means you
1:47:25have to think about it. And it's better
1:47:27to think about it because it's better to
1:47:28be an intelligent believer than an
1:47:32ignorant believer.
1:47:34And if you don't if you don't seek
1:47:36knowledge, then you're embracing
1:47:38ignorance. And I don't think that's a
1:47:39good thing.
1:47:41>> Love it.
1:47:43Bart, let's turn a little bit to um to
1:47:47Mormonism for a second. When Joseph
1:47:48Smith, what is your impression of,
1:47:52let's just say, the validity of Mormon
1:47:54scripture, of Joseph Smith as a prophet,
1:47:57have you studied much about Mormonism
1:47:59andor the Book of Mormon andor Doctrine
1:48:00of Covenants, Book of Abraham, etc.
1:48:04Um, and do you have any thoughts or
1:48:06feelings around its validity, how it uh
1:48:09corresponds, complements, contradicts
1:48:12Christianity?
1:48:14Any any initial thoughts before we
1:48:16poison the well with any questions?
1:48:18>> Well, I you look, I am not an expert on
1:48:21Mormonism and so I'm reluctant really to
1:48:22talk about it just like I I'm reluctant
1:48:24to talk about Islam, you know, or
1:48:26Hinduism or Buddhism. These are things I
1:48:28know some things about, but they're
1:48:30they're not areas of expertise. So I
1:48:31have zero expertise uh on on Mormonism.
1:48:35The only time I read the Book of Mormon
1:48:37carefully was when I was an evangelical
1:48:39Christian at Moody Bible Institute and I
1:48:41read it carefully in order to isolate
1:48:43all the contradictions and historical
1:48:45implausibilities and I marked it up so
1:48:48the next time Mormon missionaries came
1:48:49to my door, we'd have an interesting
1:48:50conversation. [laughter]
1:48:53So that was it.
1:48:55And um and so um you know, I've never uh
1:48:59I've never subscribed to Mormon beliefs
1:49:02as an outsider to Mormonism. They seem
1:49:05peculiar to me. I had this conversation
1:49:09this morning over coffee with somebody
1:49:12uh not about Mormonism, but my line to
1:49:14him was that everything that you're not
1:49:16raised on, every religious tradition
1:49:18you're not raised on seems weird to you.
1:49:21You know, people who are Baptists think
1:49:24that their views are common sense, but I
1:49:27mean, if you're not a Baptist, they seem
1:49:29weird. And I I wasn't raised in Mormon
1:49:32circles. I didn't know Mormons. I didn't
1:49:34know Mormons well until I was teaching
1:49:37at UNC. I started having a number of uh
1:49:41students from BYU come into our PhD
1:49:43program to do PhDs with me. And so, I
1:49:45had a string of of Mormon students um
1:49:48over years years. And I learned a good
1:49:51good bit about Mormonism from them. It's
1:49:52very very uh helpful. And they could of
1:49:55course they could do scholarship, but
1:49:57they remained most most of them remained
1:49:59Mormon and some of them still teach at
1:50:01they teach at BYU, you know. So So look,
1:50:04it's second third-hand knowledge I have.
1:50:06So if you've got detailed questions that
1:50:08are about like the Book of Mormon,
1:50:09[laughter]
1:50:10I I'll have to break out my copy I
1:50:12marked up when I was a fundamentalist.
1:50:15I think one one question is, you know,
1:50:17Joseph Smith basically was part of a
1:50:20restorationist movement where he felt
1:50:23like there had been an apostasy that uh,
1:50:27you know, Jesus set up his one true
1:50:29church on the earth with authority and a
1:50:31structure and 12 apostles and ordinances
1:50:35and then the Catholic Church and
1:50:38subsequent churches corrupted it,
1:50:41bastardized uh, the teachings And so
1:50:44Joseph Smith was called to restore God's
1:50:46one true church on the earth. And so he
1:50:49needed to restore things as they were
1:50:51from the beginning. Um and and so from
1:50:55that we have temple worship. We have uh
1:50:58celestial marriage. We even have
1:51:00polygamy. Uh we have not just baptism by
1:51:04immersion but baptism for the dead as
1:51:07well. and um you know on and on and on
1:51:11core Mormon theology including a living
1:51:14prophet today who leads and guides the
1:51:17church and gets revelation from God. Um
1:51:21so it does that seem like you know
1:51:25consistent with what with your what your
1:51:27understanding of the Old and New
1:51:29Testament were pointing towards or
1:51:32hoping for.
1:51:34>> So I'll say two things about that. Uh
1:51:36again I'm not attacking Mormonism. I
1:51:38have great respect for Mormonism as I I
1:51:40have respect for all major religious
1:51:42traditions. Uh and so I'm not, you know,
1:51:45I have no interest in attacking
1:51:46Mormonism or proving it wrong any more
1:51:48than I, you know, have an interest in
1:51:50proving that the Methodists are wrong,
1:51:52you know, which I think they are, but
1:51:54whatever. Um so, but I have two things
1:51:56to say about it. One is that that was
1:51:59not Joseph Smith's idea that um that the
1:52:03church started out one way and got
1:52:04corrupted and now he's going to return
1:52:06to it. This is a common theme throughout
1:52:08the history of Christianity. Uh I don't
1:52:11know how well informed he was about the
1:52:13history of Christian denominationalism,
1:52:15but it absolutely is um you know
1:52:18throughout the Middle Ages there were
1:52:20these get back to the origins movements.
1:52:23The reformation is nothing but that.
1:52:26Martin Luther is trying to get behind
1:52:27the Catholic Church to what what the
1:52:29apostle Paul and the other authors of
1:52:31the New Testament really said. And once
1:52:34Protestant startism started, you had
1:52:36numerous splinter groups that did the
1:52:38same thing for years. I was a member of
1:52:40the Plymouth Brethren community that was
1:52:43a back to the New Testament movement
1:52:44because all the other denominations had
1:52:46messed it up. And so that that basic
1:52:49motif you find constantly uh throughout
1:52:52the history of Christian denominations.
1:52:54Uh if you want to consider Mormonism the
1:52:56denomination, but close enough. Um I I
1:53:00know like like Plymouth Brethren, we did
1:53:02not want anybody to call us a
1:53:03denomination. We weren't a denomination.
1:53:05We were true Christians. [laughter]
1:53:07Those other things are denominations. Um
1:53:10so the other thing I'll say is that the
1:53:12those traditional Mormon beliefs and
1:53:14practices that you mentioned um were
1:53:18were not original to early Christianity.
1:53:20We have good evidence for what the early
1:53:22Christians believed and what they
1:53:24practiced. The only Mormon uh practice
1:53:28that you've mentioned just now that that
1:53:30can be traced back to the early church
1:53:33may be the baptism for the dead. Uh as
1:53:36as you all know uh quite well. It's
1:53:38based on a verse in 1 Corinthians
1:53:40chapter 15. Unfortunately, we don't know
1:53:43what Paul meant um when he [snorts] when
1:53:47he tells the Corinthians that if there's
1:53:49no resurrection, why do you baptize for
1:53:51the dead?
1:53:52um we don't know what it signified, how
1:53:54it was practiced, what it what they were
1:53:57thinking. Um and so I don't there's no
1:54:01way to know whether the Mormon view is
1:54:02the correct view. There are about 2,000
1:54:04interpretations of that verse among
1:54:06biblical scholars. So um the other
1:54:08things uh no um including you like
1:54:12polygamy, I mean just you sort of go
1:54:14down the list of things uh no these were
1:54:17not the these cannot be found in records
1:54:19of the early church. period.
1:54:24>> Clo has a question about uh Jesus.
1:54:28>> So
1:54:28>> that's ti that's tied to Mormonism.
1:54:31>> Yeah. So you uh mentioned how people
1:54:33have some uh issues with Jesus perhaps
1:54:37having a brother or a family because
1:54:39Mary was a perpetual virgin. Um, in LDS
1:54:43theology, there's sort of an unwritten
1:54:46or unspoken belief that maybe Jesus was
1:54:49married, maybe even to Mary um,
1:54:52Magdalene, I guess. Um, and according to
1:54:56some of the I think you would say most
1:54:58reliable authors like Dan Brown,
1:55:01[laughter]
1:55:02just just kidding. Um, they kind of
1:55:05allude to that as well. Um, I wonder if
1:55:07you could comment on any historical
1:55:11you know, validation to that or is that
1:55:14just sort of myth?
1:55:17>> Yeah. So, I actually written about this
1:55:19in two of my books. [laughter]
1:55:21I wrote a book on Dan Brown's Da Vinci
1:55:23Code. There there were there are 683
1:55:25books written about the Da Vinci Code. I
1:55:27was one of them. But I was the biblical
1:55:28historian who's trying to isolate what
1:55:30his historical mistakes were. And so my
1:55:33entire thing is like what he gets wrong,
1:55:35like just historically wrong. And it
1:55:37takes a book to explain it. But one of
1:55:40the things that I dealt with was Mary
1:55:42Magdalene. But I also have a book called
1:55:43Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene
1:55:46[laughter] where I have six chapters on
1:55:47Mary Magdalene. Um, and so I'll I'll
1:55:51give you the short story. Um, Mary,
1:55:54people do not realize this. People think
1:55:55of Mary Magdalene as extremely important
1:55:58in the ministry of Jesus. Probably
1:55:59Jesus'
1:56:01closest disciple. Many people think of
1:56:03her as his closest female disciple. Um
1:56:08if you read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and
1:56:10John, um up to the time of Jesus
1:56:13crucifixion, so from his birth to his
1:56:15crucifixion,
1:56:17in all four books, there's only one
1:56:19reference to Mary Magdalene. Luke 8:3.
1:56:24Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Susanna
1:56:27and a large group of other women support
1:56:30Jesus and his disciples financially.
1:56:34That's it.
1:56:36his entire ministry.
1:56:39That's the one reference. She and other
1:56:42women uh in Mark's gospel and in the
1:56:44Gospels, she and other women see Jesus
1:56:47get crucified
1:56:49and she's one of the women who uh finds
1:56:52the tomb empty. In the Gospel of John,
1:56:55she's the first.
1:56:57She sees the tomb empty and she um has
1:57:01an encounter with Jesus. in only in
1:57:03John. She has a one-on-one with Jesus
1:57:05where she realizes he was raised from
1:57:07the dead. She goes back and tells the
1:57:10disciples and Peter and John come and
1:57:11verify the tomb's empty.
1:57:14Now, I don't know
1:57:17it it's very hard to say anything at all
1:57:19historical about Mary Magdalene. I think
1:57:20there probably was a person like that
1:57:22probably was a follower of Jesus. Um,
1:57:26if it's true that she was one of the
1:57:28first or the first to realize that Jesus
1:57:31was raised from the dead, that would be
1:57:34hugely significant
1:57:36because you could make the case that
1:57:38Mary Magdalene was the founder of
1:57:40Christianity.
1:57:43Whoa.
1:57:44Um because if Christianity is the belief
1:57:47in Jesus' death and resurrection and
1:57:48she's the first to recognize it and
1:57:50she's the one who told the disciples,
1:57:53she would be the first. She would have
1:57:55been the found she'd be the foundation
1:57:56Christian. So that's huge.
1:57:59Now saying that she even if you think
1:58:01that much, some people do, some don't.
1:58:03Um, even if you think that much, that's
1:58:06not the same thing as her being married
1:58:09to to him and like having sex with him
1:58:11and having babies with him as people
1:58:13want to argue, including Dan Brown. Um,
1:58:17so the the idea that they were married
1:58:20is completely made up. Um, there's
1:58:24there's no indication of that in our
1:58:26early sources. We start later we start
1:58:29getting references to Mary Magdalene and
1:58:31Jesus that are sometimes used to suggest
1:58:35they had a closer relationship possibly
1:58:37an intimate relationship uh especially
1:58:39in a book called the gospel of Philip
1:58:41which is a later gnostic text from the
1:58:43end of the second century or later and
1:58:46it is not historical and even what it
1:58:48says is misunderstood if you think they
1:58:50have a mis have an intimate
1:58:51relationship. So that whole thing is
1:58:54simply a modern fabrication. Um not
1:58:57modern as in Dan Brown. Uh but it's been
1:58:59it's been around for a while. Um I don't
1:59:02know of other I don't know of other
1:59:04Christian communities that subscribe to
1:59:06it um outside of LDS communities.
1:59:11>> Bart, you've been super generous with
1:59:13your time. One of the main things we
1:59:15want to make sure to do is to uh sell
1:59:18this book. The book is Love Thy
1:59:20Stranger. It's coming out in March 2026.
1:59:23You can pre-order it on Amazon. Uh Bart,
1:59:27we've got this tricky thing in in On
1:59:29Mormon Stories where we we try not to be
1:59:32political or partisan from the
1:59:34standpoint of not wanting to turn off
1:59:37our viewers and listeners by making them
1:59:39feel like we're choosing sides. However,
1:59:42uh I think we all care about uh
1:59:44Christianity. We care about the state of
1:59:46our country. And you've got a lot to say
1:59:49in this book about Christian nationalism
1:59:51and the way Christianity is being
1:59:54co-opted politically and maybe even
1:59:57steered in ways that aren't consistent
2:00:00with what Jesus was trying to do
2:00:02specifically as it relates to immigrants
2:00:05um you know foreigners etc. So, we want
2:00:09to give you a chance to kind of explore
2:00:12for us the main thesis in your book,
2:00:15Love Thy Stranger, and even give us some
2:00:18teasers or even some answers on on why
2:00:22Christian nationalism may be um taking
2:00:26us away from the teachings of Jesus and
2:00:29not uh towards them or in harmony with
2:00:32them.
2:00:33>> Thank you. I appreciate that. Um, you
2:00:35know, I I also try to stay neutral in my
2:00:38public appearances uh on political
2:00:40issues and social agendas for the most
2:00:42part. I have a I have a daily blog, you
2:00:45know, I've done it for 14 years where I
2:00:48post, you know, five to six times a week
2:00:51and I never get into politics. I talk
2:00:53about the New Testament, Jesus, Bible,
2:00:55ancient Jewish religion, ancient Roman
2:00:57religion, all that stuff. And people ask
2:01:00me comments, they have comments and I
2:01:01don't allow politics on it. Um I um I do
2:01:05a podcast, my misquing Jesus podcast. I
2:01:07don't do politics on it. And so in this
2:01:09book, I don't directly do politics. I
2:01:12do, in other words, I don't state my
2:01:14political views about things. I do try
2:01:16to approach this question from a
2:01:17historical point of view. What is it
2:01:20that Jesus taught?
2:01:22And that can be put in relationship to
2:01:24what people say he taught
2:01:27and how Christians act today. And so and
2:01:33so it's not uh I am not saying that this
2:01:36action is wrong or that action is wrong
2:01:38or that I am saying it's not what Jesus
2:01:41said and that's [clears throat]
2:01:42different and so I try to I try to
2:01:45remain neutral but uh in in that sense
2:01:47and political like I don't support one
2:01:49political party or publicly you know for
2:01:52the most part I don't make comments
2:01:54about the congress or the president or
2:01:57that kind of thing. So with that said,
2:02:00um my thesis in this book um as I was
2:02:02intimating earlier is that Jesus brought
2:02:05a new kind of altruism into the world.
2:02:07Um Jesus inherited from the Israelite
2:02:12tradition from the Hebrew Bible. You
2:02:13should love your neighbor as yourself.
2:02:16Um and he very much advocated that.
2:02:20But he um when he advocated that he he
2:02:24had his own interpretation of it as did
2:02:25other Jewish teachers. I mean, every
2:02:27Jewish teacher would say, "Yes, that's a
2:02:29core teaching of the Bible. You got to
2:02:30love your neighbor as yourself." But
2:02:32within the book of Leviticus, love your
2:02:34neighbor as yourself is quite clear. If
2:02:36you just read that verse, it's talking
2:02:38about people within your own nation,
2:02:40those who are among you, the the nation
2:02:42of Israel, you to love your fellow
2:02:44Israelite as yourself.
2:02:46Um, that was the teaching. So, even if
2:02:48the Israelites a stranger to you, so not
2:02:51just your family and friends or the
2:02:53people in your synagogue or whatever. I
2:02:54mean it's like any Israelite is to be
2:02:57treated well. And when it says love your
2:02:59neighbor, it does not mean to have a
2:03:02feeling towards them. It's not an
2:03:03emotion in this sense. This sense love
2:03:07means helping somebody who's in need. If
2:03:09there's a fellow Israelite who's hungry,
2:03:11you you provide them food. Or they need
2:03:14clothing, you provide them with
2:03:15clothing. They're homeless, you provide
2:03:16provide them shelter. You help people
2:03:18who are in need. if they're a fellow
2:03:21Israelite,
2:03:22uh, you do that even if you don't know
2:03:24them. Um, and in the Torah, it also says
2:03:30that if somebody moves into Israel,
2:03:32somebody immigrates into Israel, you
2:03:34treat them just like an Israelite.
2:03:37They they are to be loved just as a
2:03:40fellow Israelite, treated just the same
2:03:41as an Israelite if they immigrate in.
2:03:44That obviously has implications for
2:03:47people who want to say that we uh we are
2:03:50followers of the Bible and we accept
2:03:53what the Bible teaches and we think
2:03:56immigrants should not be allowed in here
2:03:57and if they are allowed in here they
2:04:00they should be imprisoned or kicked out
2:04:03or so um I'm not again I I am not taking
2:04:08a position on um American immigration
2:04:12policy per se. I'm saying that if you
2:04:15say you're a Christian and you believe
2:04:16in the Bible, that that's contrary to
2:04:18what the Bible says. And so you have to
2:04:21decide, do you prefer a particular
2:04:24immigration policy or do you prefer
2:04:26following what the Bible says? And if
2:04:29you say, well, what it says there is not
2:04:30relevant anymore to our situation. You
2:04:32know, look, we live in a complicated age
2:04:34and immigration today is not like
2:04:37immigration in Israel in the 6th century
2:04:40B.C.E. Um, if you want to say that, I'll
2:04:43say I completely agree with you.
2:04:46I agree. Ours is a much more complicated
2:04:49situation, and I don't think you can
2:04:51pluck a verse out of the Bible in order
2:04:53to make it apply to our complicated
2:04:56situation. And I think that applies not
2:04:59just to immigration,
2:05:01but to gay rights, to your views of
2:05:03women, to whether women can exercise
2:05:06roles of authority, for example. It
2:05:09applies I mean it applies across the
2:05:10board to all the things. If you say it
2:05:13doesn't apply to immigration, it doesn't
2:05:14apply to other things too. So in what
2:05:16sense are you saying that you implement
2:05:17the teachings of the Bible? What Jesus
2:05:20taught was Jesus taught something even
2:05:23more radical though than you should love
2:05:25your fellow Israelite even if you don't
2:05:26know them. His view was that love your
2:05:29stranger meant love anyone who's in need
2:05:33whether they're Jewish or not.
2:05:35Um Jesus taught that those in need were
2:05:39to be treated well and you're to treat
2:05:42those in need as well as you treat
2:05:43yourself. So if you you have a house, if
2:05:47people's homeless, you need to provide
2:05:48shelter. If you have clothes, you should
2:05:51provide clothing. If there if you have
2:05:52enough to eat, you should provide food.
2:05:55You should help others even if you don't
2:05:57know them. And you will never know them.
2:06:00And you might not like them if you do
2:06:02know them. If you did know them, that
2:06:04doesn't matter. If they're in need, you
2:06:05help them. The thesis of my book is that
2:06:07that was Jesus radical teaching is a
2:06:09radicalization of what could be found
2:06:11more broadly in Judaism. It was not
2:06:14found at all in the Greek and Roman
2:06:16worlds. And when Christianity took over
2:06:18the Roman world, that became the ethic.
2:06:22That became the moral sense that we need
2:06:25to help those in need. That's why we
2:06:27have inherited that idea. So that if you
2:06:29hear about a disaster, you want to give
2:06:31to disaster relief. Where did that idea
2:06:32that you should help somebody you don't
2:06:34even know come from? It didn't come from
2:06:35the Greek philosophers or the Roman
2:06:37philosophers or the Jewish. It came from
2:06:39Jesus.
2:06:41And whether you're a Christian or not,
2:06:42you've inherited it because you've lived
2:06:44centuries later after this has been the
2:06:45dominant thing. And so my view I I will
2:06:48my personal view is that's a good
2:06:50doctrine. [laughter] That's a good thing
2:06:52and we should implement that. Whatever
2:06:54you do think politically, whatever you
2:06:56do politically, my view is that ought to
2:06:58be part of it. that ought to be
2:07:00directing our political and our
2:07:01political uh policies and our social
2:07:04agendas in my view.
2:07:06>> Beautiful. All right. So, one of the
2:07:09books that everyone needs to buy is Love
2:07:11Thy Stranger. Uh buy it pre-order it now
2:07:13on Amazon. Uh really quickly, Bart, I
2:07:16want to sell other of your books, too.
2:07:19So, may maybe just we'll take a second,
2:07:22tell our viewers and listeners what
2:07:23Misquing Jesus is about. I know you have
2:07:26so many we're not going to be able to do
2:07:27this with all your books, but we'll do
2:07:28with just a few.
2:07:30>> Misquin is my bestselling book. I mean,
2:07:32it's been the most popular book, and
2:07:34it's about how scribes change their
2:07:36texts when they were copying them. Uh,
2:07:38since we don't have the originals, but
2:07:40we only have copies, and the copies will
2:07:41have differences among them. How do we
2:07:43know what the authors actually said? You
2:07:45know, it's kind of hard to accept what
2:07:47John says if you don't know what his
2:07:48words were, you know, and you can't
2:07:50interpret what Mark means if you don't
2:07:52know what Mark said. And so it's that's
2:07:54what that book's about. It's about how
2:07:55scribes change the text and how we can
2:07:57figure out what originally they did say.
2:08:00>> How about Jesus interrupted?
2:08:02>> Jesus interrupted does a lot more of
2:08:04what we're saying been talking about
2:08:05here where it deals with all of the
2:08:07major most of the major problems that
2:08:10scholars deal with when it comes to the
2:08:12Bible especially the New Testament. How
2:08:14do we know that Paul wrote these letters
2:08:16that are attributed to him? Some a lot
2:08:18of scholars think he didn't write six of
2:08:19his 13 letters. How do we know who wrote
2:08:21the gospels? also looks at
2:08:23contradictions between one book uh uh
2:08:26and another book. It looks at it looks
2:08:29at other forgeries where I mean where
2:08:31people were actually forging forging
2:08:32books. It looks at uh it does look at
2:08:35the problem that we don't have the
2:08:36original manuscripts. It look so it
2:08:38looks at various kinds of problems that
2:08:41scholars have identified including like
2:08:43who invented the idea of the trinity
2:08:46where'd that come from and who came up
2:08:48with the idea of having a canon of
2:08:50scripture having 27 books of the New
2:08:51Testament and when did that happen so
2:08:53like who invented Christianity because
2:08:55it didn't just like show up one day and
2:08:57so it's that kind of thing.
2:09:01>> Uh I love it. Um there's so many I could
2:09:04list. There's how Jesus became God.
2:09:06There's Forge. There's Heaven and Hell.
2:09:09God's Problem. The triumph of
2:09:10Christianity. Ky, is there a is there a
2:09:13book or two of Barts that really meant a
2:09:15lot to you? And I'm going to ask you the
2:09:16same question, Kobe.
2:09:18>> Uh, I think the triumph of Christianity
2:09:20was one of the big ones. Um, from Jesus
2:09:23to Constantine,
2:09:25um, history of the Bible, the making of
2:09:27the New Testament, and then of course,
2:09:29uh, the fun one was the, uh, uh, truth
2:09:32and fiction of the Da Vinci Code.
2:09:34[laughter]
2:09:35And how did those how if you wanted to
2:09:38just kind of bear testimony of Bartman
2:09:40and how he's helped you. This is a very
2:09:42Mormon ritual. Bart Coy, why don't you
2:09:45bear your testimony of Bartman and then
2:09:47we'll have Colby uh give his closing
2:09:50testimony as well.
2:09:51>> I actually was speaking to a close
2:09:52friend yesterday who were his testimony
2:09:55of Bartman. So [laughter]
2:09:57>> you've been you've been a Mormon bishop.
2:09:59Is that right, Koi?
2:10:00>> I have not. No, I
2:10:01>> Okay. Okay. I was going to invoke
2:10:03authority. close but another story. I I
2:10:07>> um I you know I just I'm appreciative of
2:10:10the work that you've done uh and how it
2:10:12formed my journey through um
2:10:15Christianity you know understanding more
2:10:17of reality of the um historicity of the
2:10:20New Testament. So, I guess my yeah, mine
2:10:23is appreciation and um you've been one
2:10:26of my heroes in my faith journey, trying
2:10:28to understand who Jesus really was. Um
2:10:31what what really happened and I'm I'm a
2:10:33truth seeker. So, uh yeah, my testimony
2:10:36is appreciation for all this work that
2:10:38you've done and I get to uh stand on the
2:10:40foundation that you built for my
2:10:42understanding.
2:10:43>> Well, thank you, Coy. I really
2:10:45appreciate that.
2:10:47>> Colby is now yours. [clears throat]
2:10:49Oh, thank you so much. Uh, my favorite
2:10:52book of yours was definitely uh Jesus
2:10:54Interrupted, but I actually would pitch
2:10:56your um you have helped sponsor or maybe
2:11:00you can speak to your relationship with
2:11:01it, but the New Insights in the New
2:11:03Testament conference. I attended that
2:11:05virtually obviously with my wife um last
2:11:08year and I really really appreciated the
2:11:11different scholars that you brought
2:11:12together to talk about their insights
2:11:14into the New Testament and I I thought
2:11:16it was just very interesting. Um, I also
2:11:19have purchased several of your courses
2:11:21um through your website that I've really
2:11:23really appreciated. So, I know you did
2:11:25one about the the books of the Old
2:11:27Testament, the first couple of books of
2:11:29the Old Testament. I really appreciated
2:11:30that one also.
2:11:33>> Well, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So the
2:11:35you know so if people want to find out
2:11:37about those courses or this conference
2:11:39we we have actually have a conference on
2:11:40the Hebrew Bible coming up uh in in a
2:11:43few weeks with top scholars in the world
2:11:46talking about major aspects of the book
2:11:48of Genesis and with Q&A. So there going
2:11:51to be eight scholars who each give a
2:11:5250-minute lecture followed by live Q&A.
2:11:54It's all remote and people can see how
2:11:57they can you know reserve a spot for it.
2:11:59just go to my website or it's barter
2:12:01man.com
2:12:03and you'll you'll see just click on
2:12:05courses and you'll see all that. So, um
2:12:07so thank you. Yeah. And and that new
2:12:09insights into the New Testament thing.
2:12:11We've done that one for three years now
2:12:13and we have about 2500 people who come
2:12:15to it and um it's it's great because I
2:12:18have all these scholars come in who are
2:12:20really really and you know they they're
2:12:22top level scholars. Most some of them
2:12:25are Christians, some are ex-Christians,
2:12:26some are Jews, some are ex-Jews, some
2:12:28are there's a whole range of people. So,
2:12:30um, yeah. So, that's the one we're going
2:12:32to be doing the Apocrypha on in the
2:12:33fall.
2:12:35>> Have you heard of Dan Mlullen, Bartman?
2:12:37>> I know Dan Mlullen. He's going to be
2:12:39giving the keynote address at this uh,
2:12:41Hebrew Bible conference I'm doing in a
2:12:43couple weeks.
2:12:44>> And how proud should Mormons be of Dan
2:12:46Mlullen?
2:12:47>> Well, I hope they are proud because he
2:12:49made a big splash with this book. He's a
2:12:51really bright guy. um who is able to
2:12:55explain complicated things in simple
2:12:56terms. Uh he's a Hebrew Bible guy um and
2:13:00but he's he's widely knowledgeable and
2:13:03um so I don't know I actually don't know
2:13:06his standing within the uh LDS community
2:13:08anymore but but he's um I think you know
2:13:11so I haven't talked to him about that
2:13:12but he's but he's he's really good he's
2:13:15one of these people who can who can
2:13:17communicate to non- scholars. It's
2:13:19great.
2:13:20>> All right, last question. part. You do
2:13:21quite a bit of charitable work. Is Is
2:13:23that Isn't that right? Uh I think a lot
2:13:26of the money that people pay to your
2:13:28website goes to a charity. You want to
2:13:30talk about that as a final thing?
2:13:32>> Yeah, my main charity is my blog and so
2:13:35it's just called the Barterman blog. Uh
2:13:37I mentioned it earlier. I started it in
2:13:392012. So I've been going almost 14 years
2:13:42now. Uh the idea, there's two ideas
2:13:46behind it. one is to communicate
2:13:48biblical scholarship to a wider audience
2:13:50uh at a level they can understand. Uh
2:13:53and so I do I do a lot on New Testament
2:13:56historical Jesus, Paul. I do a lot on
2:13:58the Hebrew Bible and on ancient Judaism
2:14:00and Roman religion and Greek relig all
2:14:03sorts of things. Uh but you know I post
2:14:05five or six times a week [laughter]
2:14:07and so and people can people who belong
2:14:09to the blog can uh make comments and
2:14:13they can ask questions. I get probably I
2:14:16don't know 10 questions a day or so. Uh
2:14:19I've answered every question I've ever
2:14:21gotten on the blog in 14 years.
2:14:24>> Um so yeah, it's a lot. But the reason I
2:14:26do it is for the second reason for doing
2:14:28this blog. There's a small membership
2:14:30fee. Um I small like as in like I think
2:14:33at the bottom the the lowest tier is
2:14:35$29.95 a year. So you know it's like
2:14:37what is that like you know two bucks a
2:14:39month you know to get all of that. Um
2:14:43and but then there are higher tiers
2:14:44where you can make comments or I do
2:14:46webinars at higher tiers or I do like I
2:14:48do things for people and um but people
2:14:51pay a membership fee. Um I don't take
2:14:55any overhead out of the over out of the
2:14:57fee to to pay for the blog. I've got
2:15:00volunteers who do work for us and a paid
2:15:02employee. U I don't get a dime. I never
2:15:05gotten a dime. We take all of the money
2:15:08uh with no overhead taken out. um uh and
2:15:12give it to charities dealing with mainly
2:15:14with hunger and homelessness and
2:15:15disaster relief. Uh the last uh over the
2:15:19last three year, just the last three
2:15:20years, we've raised $1.5 million. Um and
2:15:24every penny of that has gone to uh
2:15:26disaster relief and homelessness and
2:15:28hunger issues. Um I pay for the blog.
2:15:31The blog does cost because I have a
2:15:33full-time employee, a CEO, and I we have
2:15:35expenses. I mean cost. So I have a
2:15:37separate fundraising thing that I do for
2:15:39that. so that it doesn't not a penny
2:15:41comes out of membership fees. So, I
2:15:43encourage people to look at it because
2:15:45if you're interested in the stuff I've
2:15:46been talking about here, uh this is this
2:15:49is like every day you get different and
2:15:51you have and the archives go back 14
2:15:53years. You can get the whole access to
2:15:55the whole thing. So, it and and it's for
2:15:57a good cause. Um it's to help help
2:15:59people in need.
2:16:00>> You better be careful, Bart, or someone
2:16:02may accuse you of being a Christian.
2:16:04>> I know they have. Yeah. Well, I I
2:16:06consider myself an atheist Christian or
2:16:08Christian atheist, I I love it. You're a
2:16:10Christian atheist. I love it.
2:16:11>> I try to follow the teachings of Jesus,
2:16:12but yeah, I obviously don't do very
2:16:14well. I mean, look at the I got a lot of
2:16:16stuff here. [laughter] I haven't sold
2:16:17all this, but but I think the idea that
2:16:21Jesus I really do think his core idea is
2:16:23to be concerned about those in need. And
2:16:26I even though I don't believe in God, I
2:16:28really agree with that teaching.
2:16:30>> I love it. All right. Well, the book is
2:16:33Love Thy Stranger by Dr. Bartman among
2:16:37many, many, many other books. You can
2:16:38buy it on Amazon, pre-order it now. It
2:16:41comes out, did you say March 16th or
2:16:44March 26th? What's the date?
2:16:45>> It's It's March 24th. And my
2:16:48>> Sorry, no. My publisher in particular
2:16:50would like you to pre-order it. They
2:16:51keep
2:16:52>> So, please pre-order it.
2:16:54>> We'll include a link.
2:16:56>> And Bart, you've been super generous
2:16:57with us today. Uh, thank you so much for
2:17:00all you do. Thanks for coming on Mormon
2:17:02Stories. Colobby and Ky, it was really
2:17:05fun to have you both here. You made this
2:17:06conversation better.
2:17:08And Bart, I'll just give you the last
2:17:10word to uh to make your closing
2:17:13statement and uh to plug or say anything
2:17:16else you want to say as we as we wrap
2:17:19up.
2:17:20>> Well, I no I just I'd like to thank you
2:17:22for having me on because you know my you
2:17:25know my my goal in life as a scholar
2:17:27originally was to be a very uh technical
2:17:31scholar of Greek manuscripts and with no
2:17:33interest in communicating to wider
2:17:35audiences. And I completely changed that
2:17:38about 30 years ago. And my really my
2:17:40mission in life now is to communicate
2:17:43what scholars think to non- scholars.
2:17:44And so I really appreciate, you know,
2:17:46we've had two and a half hours to do
2:17:47that here. And that's pretty rare. And I
2:17:50will I will also say that um um that I
2:17:53do a lot of these podcasts, nothing
2:17:55quite at this depth or length, but I
2:17:57have people comment to me more about
2:17:59Mormon stories than probably any of the
2:18:00others. [laughter]
2:18:02>> Whoa.
2:18:03So congratulations on what you're doing
2:18:05here because you're doing you're doing
2:18:07great things and I I really appreciate
2:18:09it.
2:18:10>> Well, thanks B. Would you be surprised
2:18:11to know that a two and a half hour
2:18:12episode is considered short by Mormon
2:18:14story standards? [laughter]
2:18:16>> No. Is it really?
2:18:17>> Oh yeah, we do six, seven, eight, nine
2:18:19hour episodes sometimes. I'm not I'm not
2:18:22necessarily proud of that. But am I
2:18:24lying, Colobby? Am I lying, Coy? Am I
2:18:26lying?
2:18:27>> No, Barb, my wife and I's original
2:18:29episode with John and Mormon stories is
2:18:31over five hours. So, [laughter] good
2:18:33god. Wow. Okay. Well, I Yeah, I'm trying
2:18:37to think when I've done a two and a half
2:18:38hour episode for anybody before. I I I
2:18:42I'm having memory lapses now, but man, I
2:18:44don't think so. [laughter]
2:18:47>> Well, thanks for thanks for helping to
2:18:48sustain our brand, particular
2:18:51[laughter]
2:18:52>> No, no, it was so nice to meet you guys.
2:18:54>> Well, it's nice meeting you guys, too.
2:18:56So, thank you.
2:18:56>> Yeah. if we could ever help you and your
2:18:58cause and return this favor other than
2:19:00helping you sell a lot of books, I hope
2:19:02you'll reach out, Bart, because we we
2:19:04love what you do and I'm guessing you
2:19:06might even be more prolific in
2:19:07retirement than you were uh as a as
2:19:11faculty. Is that possible?
2:19:13>> Well, it's possible because I won't have
2:19:14any committee meetings or grading or
2:19:17conferences or
2:19:18>> lectures. Yeah,
2:19:19>> lectures. I like Oh my god. Yeah. So,
2:19:21we're hoping it'll be good. We'll see.
2:19:23It's looking good so far. stay healthy
2:19:26and uh thanks for your gift to the world
2:19:29>> and to and to Mormonism. Uh we just we
2:19:32honor and appreciate you. And also
2:19:34everyone check out Bart's last lecture.
2:19:37Uh it's called the last lecture,
2:19:39Bartman's retirement lecture from UNC.
2:19:41It'll give you a great introduction to
2:19:43him and then he can dive from there.
2:19:46>> All right, Dr. Bartman, thanks for
2:19:48joining us. Some more of his stories.
2:19:50>> Okay. Thank you.
2:19:51>> Take care. Stay in touch. If people want
2:19:52to reach out to you, just go to your
2:19:54website, bartermanman.com.
2:19:56>> Yes, bartererman.com is the best way.
2:19:58Yep. Absolutely.
2:19:59>> Okay. Thanks, Colobby. Thanks, Coy. It's
2:20:01great to have you.
2:20:02>> Thank you.
2:20:02>> And uh thanks everyone for joining today
2:20:04on Mormon Stories. Uh we couldn't do
2:20:06this without our donors. Please
2:20:08subscribe. We are only like 800
2:20:11subscribers away on YouTube from hitting
2:20:13our 300,000 subscriber mark. You can
2:20:16also subscribe on Spotify and Facebook
2:20:18and Instagram, wherever you get the
2:20:19podcast. Please do that. uh we exist uh
2:20:23from our donors. So, thanks if you
2:20:24donate. If you don't donate and you want
2:20:26to support content like this, go to
2:20:29mormontories.org/donate,
2:20:31become a monthly donor and uh we will um
2:20:35we will continue providing this type of
2:20:37content. Uh we love your feedback at
2:20:39[email protected]
2:20:40and we love your comments uh on YouTube
2:20:43and on Spotify and again your likes and
2:20:46your shares are super helpful as well.
2:20:49Uh, be good to each other. Be kind to
2:20:51each other. Buy this new book, Love Thy
2:20:53Stranger. Buy all of Bartman's books for
2:20:55yourself and for your friends and
2:20:56family. Take care and we'll see you all
2:20:59again soon on another episode of Mormon
2:21:02Stories Podcast. And remember, Jesus
2:21:04said to welcome and love um, strangers.
2:21:08So, uh, love thy neighbor, love thy
2:21:11stranger as thyself. Take care,
2:21:13everybody.

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