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Moral Courage with Diane Foley | A Bit of Optimism Podcast — Transcript

by Simon Sinek · 4,888 words · 664 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00how long ago did Isis take James this
0:04summer is 10 years since he was killed
0:06where did you find the courage to meet
0:09one of his killers there was a Grace in
0:12the meetings he expressed a lot of
0:15remorse and I tried to tell him a bit
0:17about who Jim was he showed me pictures
0:20of his family three little girls in a
0:22refugee camp in Syria so there was a a
0:25real connection a human connection but
0:29the other side of that Simon is we're
0:32all very human and so we all have a a
0:35negative part of us so we're also
0:37capable of horrible bad things too and I
0:41think our goal as people who care about
0:43the world is to try to nurture the good
0:46and Jim believes that that everyone down
0:50deep has a bit of the Divine if you will
0:53and so if you look hard enough and
0:54listen hard enough and care you can
0:58bring it out
1:03how long ago did Isis take Jim
1:07Thanksgiving Day of 2012 2012 so yeah
1:12this fall will be 12 years this summer
1:15is 10 years since he was killed the the
1:19big question is look no parent should
1:22ever have to outlive their children ever
1:25I agree and and and even less so in such
1:29a horrific Manner and such a publicly
1:32horrific manner as well the you know
1:35does does talking about it help it's the
1:39one thing as I was getting ready to talk
1:41to you like the so the burning question
1:43I had is you know do you still want to
1:45talk about it sure because I Jim Jim has
1:50challenged me to be a better person he's
1:53challenged me to be more courageous and
1:56to dare to take on things that I thought
1:59was right um in a way that I've never
2:02been challenged before to be honest um
2:05so and I'm very proud of Jim's Legacy
2:09yeah and um grateful I enjoy when he can
2:13Inspire others to do good and make a
2:15difference in the world um in in which
2:19case I mean this is this is sort of the
2:22the giving back isn't it you know I mean
2:23he he lived a life of giving of giving
2:26as a journalist and and now that his
2:28legacy continues I have to ask of course
2:31I I I I knew Jim's story I I remember
2:36playing out you know on television I
2:39understand all the science and I've read
2:41the studies and heard the stories about
2:43forgiveness and when people meet the
2:46killers of their family you know and uh
2:50uh and I know understand all of it where
2:54you know holding this animosity hurts
2:57you more than it hurts them MH
3:00but still I want to understand where did
3:03you find the courage to decide to meet
3:06one of his Killers I I'm not sure I have
3:09that
3:11courage well I've been blessed from the
3:13time I was young with the faith in a
3:16higher power assignment from the time I
3:18really was a teenager um I my parents
3:22challenged me to choose what faith to
3:24follow when I was a teenager because my
3:26dad was Unitarian my mom was Roman
3:28Catholic and they said we'll let Diane
3:31decide so it it kind of made me quite
3:34intered who what is the idea of God and
3:37what is a relationship with such a
3:39higher power so I've been blessed by
3:42that but then when this happened to
3:45Jim his courage and goodness challenged
3:48me even further to have more courage to
3:52act on my inner convictions if you will
3:56so I I really think it's the God had
3:58been preparing me for this moment in a
4:00way um and Jim in his own way and he
4:05kind of handed me the torch and um I've
4:08done my best to continue Jim's Legacy
4:11but at what point did you find that
4:13courage because obviously sadness is the
4:15denial sadness of the first things the
4:17anger you know how long did it take for
4:20you to sort of take that deep breath and
4:21say I think I need to meet this guy well
4:24first of all um that was not the first
4:27thing that happened um I met Alex Ander
4:30seven years after Jim was killed so time
4:34helps um in the beginning um I was
4:37shocked and angry I felt very betrayed
4:40by my government and that is what
4:43propelled me and many of Jim's friends
4:46and supporters to insist that our
4:50government could do better and to do our
4:52part by starting the fley foundation to
4:55prioritize the return of innocent us
4:58Nationals Amer Americans who are
5:00targeted simply because they're American
5:03and also to work well we had three goals
5:06primarily was to um prioritize the
5:10return of a fellow Americans taken
5:12hostage or wrongfully detained abroad to
5:15improve safety for journalists and
5:17international Travelers and also to
5:20inspire our moral courage in all of us
5:23ourselves included to try to use what
5:26gifts we have to do the right thing if
5:29well so it's been kind of that
5:32three-pronged approach that has um
5:35fueled our work over the years and when
5:39Alexander Cody were pleaded guilty to
5:43all charges without a fight he just
5:47pleaded guilty to all eight charges and
5:49offered to speak to victims I just felt
5:55very strongly that Jim would have wanted
5:58to talk to him here hear his story hear
6:00him out and as a mom I kind of wanted to
6:03share who Jim was to be honest with him
6:06so that he might understand too the
6:09first time you met with Alexander can
6:11you share sort of how it came about and
6:15and where you had the first meeting so
6:17I'm very curious how you felt walking
6:20into the prison that
6:23day sure um I was convinced that Jim
6:28very felt very strongly that Jim would
6:30have wanted me to go but then when it
6:32actually was time to do it um I had my
6:37own doubts and I thought boy I don't
6:39know and so I really had to pray a lot
6:42about it for the grace to be able to
6:45first of all see him as a human flawed
6:48human being like I am to see him as a
6:50person not as a terrorist who um
6:53kidnapped and tortured my son but as a
6:56person my family wanted no part of it
6:58they really thought it was ridiculous
7:01they had no interest and it was over
7:05three days we met two days in the fall
7:09of
7:102021 and quite soon after his guilty
7:14plea and then later in Spring of 2022
7:18after the trial of his colleague elsha
7:21El shake so um the first time I met with
7:25him I was nervous he was too was very
7:29awward ORD um we had a you know a
7:33audience of people around us in that
7:35both defense teams and FBI and other
7:39people present but you know the
7:41interesting thing Simon is once we sat
7:44down and started to talk it's like they
7:47all melted away and I found him a good
7:51listener and I tried my best to be a
7:53good listener of his story there was a
7:57Grace in the meetings he expressed a lot
8:00of remorse particular one of the best
8:02meetings was the middle meeting it was
8:04the second one it was after we got some
8:08of the awkwardness out of the way and he
8:12uh expressed tried to make his case of
8:15why he had done what he' done and and
8:18all and and I tried to tell him a bit
8:21about who Jim was and such and so it was
8:24in that second meeting which was the
8:26following day those two day meetings
8:28were back to back that was the most
8:32authentic if you will um he showed me
8:36pictures of his family and started to
8:38cry um three little girls who at that
8:41time were in the refugee camp in Syria
8:45so there was a a real connection a human
8:49connection um and like I say he
8:52expressed a lot of remorse for what we'
8:54gone through and subsequently sent me
8:57several letters which I never received
8:59to until many months later but
9:01nevertheless it was a good thing I was
9:03glad I went it was important what did he
9:06say how did he justify his case his case
9:09was mostly based on our
9:12country's mistakes our the times in our
9:16country when Innocents have been killed
9:18in bombings or drone strikes he um
9:22talked about a a specific time when one
9:26of his friends little ones was killed in
9:28in the midst of
9:29such a strike uh he was very resentful
9:34even about the movie Jim the James Foley
9:36story why should this white American
9:39have have a movie done about him um no
9:42one's going to do a movie about his
9:44friends lots of their child kind of
9:46thing and he was angry about a lot of
9:49the arrogance of the United States the
9:53times we've made mistakes look at Abu
9:55graab we certainly have Guantanamo and
9:59and all of that was focused Jim was not
10:02seen as a person none of the their
10:05captives were they were the epitome of
10:08anything the United States has ever done
10:11wrong Western Partners ever done wrong
10:13so that's was his
10:17justification and yet remorse so those
10:20two seem incompatible to be able to
10:22justify one's actions and yet also feel
10:25bad for them usually when we rationalize
10:28tring to distance ourselves some guilt
10:30right he justified what he did it was a
10:33war this was a war and and even though
10:36Jim and the other captives were total
10:38non-combatants which I pointed out to
10:40him they never carried a gun or anything
10:43they also were there to tell those
10:46stories like his friend and their lost
10:50of the PE losses for the Syrian people
10:52and the aid workers but it's he just
10:56felt it was war and this was Jihad
10:58against the Western oppression Western
11:01arrogance Western bad deeds and all
11:04those things everything we've ever done
11:06wrong was part of the reason for this
11:10intense hatred and all that hatred was
11:15embodi in these innocent folks they held
11:18captive you said that you were you know
11:21ultimately um grateful and glad you did
11:25it um have any of your family um seen
11:29the impact that it's had on you and then
11:30thought maybe they should reconsider and
11:32go and meet him too I don't think so you
11:35know everybody Grieves differently Simon
11:39um and and his remorse was more um to do
11:44with me as a mother right no he wasn't
11:46sorry that he' done those things he he
11:49felt those were justified in war in
11:52Jihad right but he felt sorry for my
11:55suffering I think he's fairly close to
11:57his mom his dad left when he was a kid
12:00so he was raised by a single mother so I
12:03think he had some respect for my role
12:06and my own suffering so that was the
12:09area he expressed remorse um my family
12:13everybody has grieved in different ways
12:15um you know Jim was the older brother uh
12:19his presence is sorely felt by everyone
12:22in the family but but their grief is
12:25different um for me I I guess I need to
12:29walk through the grief somehow and part
12:32of um talking to
12:34Alexander was to in hopes of gleaning
12:37some insight into what Jim's last two
12:40years of life
12:41were and a kind of a hope that maybe
12:46Alexander could um come to some um
12:51remorse for his deeds and his own
12:54healing um but it was healing for me um
12:59to see him as a person I I think we need
13:01to do more of that as you said before
13:04Simon that we need to have somehow have
13:08the
13:09courage um and patience to listen to
13:12people who may hate us or who may
13:16disagree strongly and that's why the
13:18Foley Foundation seeks to be totally
13:21nonpartisan we want to work with
13:23everyone we want to do our best to hear
13:25everyone out because that's the only way
13:28forward I say to me it's very clear that
13:31hate is never the answer I mean if we
13:34hate one another in the end people
13:37suffer the greatest challenge is to love
13:40one another right the greatest challenge
13:42is to hear one another and empathize
13:45with one another just this last year we
13:48uh we always give three awards for in
13:50areas of moral courage you know one for
13:52hostage advocacy who dares to really
13:56help bring people home one for
13:58journalists who dare to report the news
14:01in spite of um issues and other for
14:04humanitarians because Jim really cared
14:06about people and that's the way Jim was
14:09I think he really wanted to PE us to
14:13understand someone else's suffering
14:15someone else's story that we might care
14:18the missions of the Foley Foundation you
14:19know the first two are very specific to
14:22uh people who are traveling abroad and
14:24who find themselves in in in trouble but
14:26it's that third one which is to help
14:28people find moral courage that I find
14:31the most universal and if you look at
14:34the world that we're living in today and
14:35our country
14:37today um moral courage seems to be dare
14:41I say desperately lacking and and we're
14:43not talking about the moral courage to
14:45meet you know your son's murderer we're
14:49talking about the moral courage to
14:52listen to someone you disagree with
14:54exactly we're talking about the moral to
14:56allow someone else to feel heard M
15:01so what has happened to our moral
15:04courage why why are we in such a deficit
15:07of moral courage
15:09today well that's a good question um
15:12some of it I think is because we have a
15:16der of spirituality in a way you know I
15:20think we tend to think all the answers
15:22come from ourselves and we've lost some
15:26of the wisdom of knowing that we don't
15:29know at all that we need one another we
15:33need the inspiration of the almighty you
15:36know our creator if you will to teach us
15:39to help us to come to wisdom about what
15:44our next steps are in our life so I I
15:47for some reason I think some of it is
15:49the
15:51secularization and some of it is just um
15:56a lack of values in terms terms of the
16:00value of listening to one another I
16:02think perhaps some of the electronics
16:06have taken us away from just playing
16:08having deep conversations with one
16:10another and instead just doing things
16:14instantly and quickly um on our phones
16:17or whatever so I don't know it's it's a
16:20complex challenge but certainly the
16:22challenge for our future no question
16:25Simon it's a good Insight you know which
16:27is people still still have the desire to
16:29believe in something and people still
16:31have the desperate desire to feel like a
16:32part of a call it a belief Community
16:36though I think the church has lost
16:40relevance in a lot of people's lives we
16:42can see people trying desperately to
16:45find
16:46something some sort of movement whether
16:48it's what's going on in the Middle East
16:50whether it's it's vaxing or masking when
16:54people are feeling disenfranchised
16:56perhaps it's all anti-establishment
16:57anger all of it whether it's on the left
16:59or the right and they're finding these
17:04communities of belief in these
17:08movements but it's not a higher power
17:11nor is it a moral guidance but it does
17:14provid some of the yeah it does act as a
17:18salv and provides some of what faith
17:22provides it seems like we've got some of
17:23the wires crossed
17:27exactly we do but a lot of times some of
17:30those movements are are fueled by fear
17:34anger you know alienation from one
17:36another yeah um uh resolve that we're
17:40right and everyone else is wrong kind of
17:43thing um it's not based on a on a uh
17:47wisdom or a desire for good in the world
17:51necessarily so I I I feel in many ways
17:54we've we've lost our moral compass we
17:57also haven't had any war in country you
18:01know we us westerners have not had a war
18:05we've not felt we've kind of grown kind
18:07of lazy self-satisfied and we are a
18:11little spoiled we're not used to
18:13sacrificing for one another and all
18:15those other things that come in hard
18:19times let me push a little bit you know
18:21when you say you know uh the they're
18:24against things and they're against each
18:26other no one thinks they're on the side
18:28of wrong everyone thinks they're on the
18:30side of right even even the jihadis Jims
18:35Jims Killers absolutely they were driven
18:37by love and they were they fundamentally
18:41believed they were on the side of good
18:43and so if if everyone in all of this
18:46anger Still Still believes they're on
18:48the side of good like just reconcile
18:50that for me well but then you've got to
18:53look at their actions if if if what
18:56they're promoting is good and yet it
18:59results in thousands of people suffering
19:02and being killed in poverty and and I
19:06mean that is not how is that a greater
19:09good I I mean I think you can see the
19:12fruits of the actions of some of these
19:15groups the results tell you in a way
19:19that they're misguided that they yes
19:22you're right they may believe and that
19:25Community feeling makes them feel
19:28righteous and strong about what they're
19:30doing but it results in suffering and
19:36um suffering for the world so I think
19:40there you can see that the results do
19:42not bear fruit for good in the world
19:45this idea of of uh moral courage you
19:49know I've also become sort of quite
19:51fascinated with the idea of moral
19:52obligations which is the number of times
19:55I talk to leaders or hear leaders and I
19:57see the short-term financial decisions
20:00they're making sometimes that come at
20:01the expense of human beings their
20:03livelihoods or the communities in which
20:05they operate and when you question their
20:07decisions they'll say they'll justify
20:10their decisions like Simon I have a
20:11fiduciary duty to my shareholder I have
20:13a fiduciary duty to whatever it is you
20:15know they talk about their fiduciary
20:17duty but I think it's correct that
20:19leaders should start also considering
20:21their moral obligation and it seems to
20:23me that a moral obligation is higher
20:25than a fidu duty moral obligation comes
20:27first and once you have fulfilled your
20:29moral obligation then you can fulfill
20:31your fucery
20:33responsibility well that's why I was so
20:35angry when Jim was killed because
20:37throughout Jim's captivity for nearly
20:40two years I was told that Jim was the
20:42highest priority I was sent in circles
20:45people essentially patronized and lied
20:48to me within the government partly
20:50because they didn't know what to do with
20:51me we had no hostage Enterprise no way
20:54to no structure to handle when any us
20:59Nationals other than a soldier is
21:01targeted abro so they didn't know what
21:04to do with me so instead they just kind
21:06of lied to me if you will and told me oh
21:08he's our highest priority and and just
21:11sent me to another person they literally
21:13sent me in circles so it was I was angry
21:17I was angry at our government I had
21:20voted for Obama I had I thought he was a
21:23great leader but I was so angry that he
21:27considered Jim and the other American's
21:29collateral damage that he didn't feel
21:31any higher moral obligation to at least
21:35be honest even just tell me we can't do
21:37anything about it we can't help you or
21:40just tell me the truth um instead of
21:45sending the in circles I wasted a lot of
21:47time um and Jim died so I felt sure that
21:52we could do better and so it was kind of
21:54a a anger I had that gosh this is was
21:58appalled the way I was treated and the
22:02way Jim and the other Americans were
22:04treated um and the fact that we didn't
22:07even try to do a coalition with Western
22:10Partners I mean there were at times 20
22:12to 22 westerners held all together every
22:17country did their own thing and all the
22:19westerners um negotiated all their
22:22people came home the Brits and the
22:24Americans were all horrifically killed
22:26and used for propaganda so I was I
22:30really felt and our country could do
22:32better and many people did after that
22:36and so thanks to many good people we
22:38were able to at least begin to change
22:43that that now 122 Americans have
22:47returned home since 2014 we now have uh
22:51some experts working on the problem far
22:53from perfect we have a lot to do um
22:56because now some people are targeting
22:59Americans nation states are particularly
23:02like Russia and others um it continues
23:05to be a problem but at least now we have
23:07some a dedicated group of people who are
23:11working on it and we are and other
23:13nonprofits have spur up to health so why
23:16did they lie to you as opposed to what
23:18were they afraid of what were they
23:19afraid that you would do like why why
23:21not just say look please understand
23:23complex
23:25situation well part of the problem was I
23:27never spoke to anyone in real Authority
23:30I always was spoke to Middle people they
23:34didn't know what to do with me they knew
23:36there was no one to help me I I don't
23:39know why they didn't dare to be more
23:43honest with me so there was a lack of
23:45moral courage on their part too yeah and
23:49um there was one individual when all the
23:52American families came together in April
23:55of
23:562014 um who did very callously very
24:00unkindly tell us the truth at the time I
24:04was appalled at what he said but in
24:07reality he was the one person who told
24:09us the truth at the end just before Jim
24:12was killed yeah how do we ever find
24:14moral courage to
24:17listen with somebody with whom we want
24:20to hate where do we find the courage or
24:23the obligation if there's no Foundation
24:26of unified belief in your case
24:29Alexander still justifies and believes
24:32he feels justified in in in his actions
24:37but or and he can still see you as a
24:41mother
24:42simultaneously and recognize that his
24:44actions have caused incredible pain to a
24:47mother and at the same time his actions
24:50are can never be justified to you but
24:52you can at least see him as a human
24:54being with little kids who also has a
24:57mother and misses his family and th
24:59those things don't have to be in
25:01opposition those sometimes conflicting
25:03feelings can live
25:04simultaneously
25:06absolutely
25:08absolutely
25:11the oh I I
25:14wish go I wish more people had your
25:19courage I'm just a very ordinary I'm a
25:22mom of five kids a nurse a nurse
25:24practitioner I'm not anything I I you
25:28know you know it's really my faith in
25:30God and also my faith in the goodness of
25:33people yeah and Jim believes that that
25:36everyone down deep has a bit of the
25:39Divine if you will and so if you look
25:41hard enough and listen hard enough and
25:44care about them um you can bring it out
25:48Jim believed that um and and he's taught
25:52me a lot of that and I've seen it and I
25:55mean none of the work of our little
25:57group would have been possible without
26:00many many good people who stepped out up
26:04about after the horror of it and offered
26:06help so good things aren't possible
26:10without one another we can't do anything
26:12alone I don't think that's that's a
26:15great lesson one of the lessons I'm
26:17learning from you is is when I want to
26:19judge someone and and and describe them
26:22as evil or describe them as bad or wrong
26:25or whatever negative words we use to
26:27describe each other
26:29to ask myself what good are they
26:33motivated by maybe it's they feel lost
26:36and they're trying to find love maybe
26:38they feel they're just trying to do the
26:40right thing for their family they're
26:41they're loving parents who believe this
26:44is the right thing to do for their like
26:45can I find anything that I could at
26:47least agree with or find understanding
26:51for as as you said what good is there
26:54but the other side of that Simon is
26:56we're all very he human and so we all
26:59have a a negative part of us that's
27:02self-centered that's selfish that's
27:05greedy that all those things so there's
27:08always that inherent tension in living
27:11so we're also capable of of horrible
27:14evil horrible bad things too and so my
27:19my goal and I think our goal as people
27:22who care about the world is to try to
27:24nurture the good and that's what good AU
27:28authentic communities do so you know
27:31that's what good business cultures do
27:35that they try to um emphasize what's
27:38good in their employees and praise them
27:41for working together and doing the next
27:44right thing together so whenever we do
27:47that for one another I think good is
27:50magnified if you will um and
27:54fruitful oh you're amazing hi ly I mean
27:59I I'm just you're amazing I mean I think
28:02we need to use whatever platform we have
28:06to inspire others Simon to do the right
28:09thing and so I applaud you I applaud
28:12what you're doing in this regard and if
28:15I can be of any use I would love it just
28:18because I think it's important the world
28:21is so need needs this you know when you
28:26said the three things that your
28:27organization focuses on moral courage
28:30was third on the
28:32list and I actually think moral courage
28:34is the first thing on the list I do too
28:37I think the primary reason for the
28:39existence of your organization is to
28:42help teach us the importance and how to
28:45live with moral courage you happen to do
28:48it through this mechanism of helping us
28:51rescue uh uh Americans who are who are
28:55uh kidnapped around the world you happen
28:57to do it by helping journalists you know
28:59who who get taken around the world that
29:01is the manner in which you're
29:03demonstrating moral courage but I think
29:06fundamentally what your organization
29:07stands for and what it exists uh is how
29:10to have moral
29:12courage well I think you're making an
29:14excellent point Simon the things we
29:16actually do are kind of Niche things
29:19that sometimes people can't relate to
29:21whereas the moral courage is what
29:24inspires our events and a lot of the
29:26people who donate to our work I have
29:29no personal
29:31experience with anyone who's been taken
29:34hostage in a foreign country that would
29:36warrant me to support an organization
29:39like yours if you described it as such
29:42however if you talked about it as an
29:44organization devoted singularly to
29:46advancing moral courage in the world
29:48hookline and sinker where do I sign up
29:50how can I help and and and how you bring
29:53it to life through this rather Niche
29:55thing becomes secondary to me because I
29:57desper want to support you in your
29:59effort to teach us and Advance the uh
30:03philosophy of moral courage but Simon
30:06what gives me the authority on moral
30:08courage do you see what I'm saying I
30:10mean to me God gives me the authority
30:12you know but it's just that's you not
30:15you are not the authority on moral
30:16courage you are a preacher for moral
30:20courage you are a messenger for moral
30:22courage okay and your organization is a
30:25teacher of moral courage and an example
30:28Setter of moral courage so and and and
30:31by the way you have moral credibility by
30:34the mere fact that you have demonstrated
30:36moral courage in in in in the work that
30:39you do so I mean you have the
30:44credibility uh and you are a a a you are
30:47about as good as a messenger as anyone
30:49could be for for for the cause of moral
30:51courage then I'm thank you for that um
30:55you've taught me today too so so yeah I
30:59would love I love what you're doing if I
31:01can be of any use um please uh let me
31:05know thank you and the feeling's mutual
31:08to to to for us to work together to
31:10advance Moral Moral courage is a is is a
31:13fight worth fighting for it is Simon so
31:16you know we can always use the help of
31:19incredible people like you so thank you
31:21for that kind than you so so much if you
31:23enjoyed this podcast and would like to
31:25hear more please subscribe wherever you
31:27like like to listen to podcasts and if
31:30you'd like even more optimism check out
31:32my website simon.com for classes videos
31:36and more until then take care of
31:38yourself take care of each other

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