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MONEY EXPERT Leila Hormozi: The Psychology of Making Money — Transcript

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0:00Creating money is building a system that
0:02generates money. It's a form of
0:04discipline. It's a skill.
0:06>> What do you see is the number one thing
0:07holding people back from having success
0:10in their life?
0:10>> The number one trait of all that succeed
0:13is and it pays freaking dividends.
0:17>> No one's ever said that before.
0:21>> Hey everyone, welcome back to OnPurpose,
0:23the place you come to become happier,
0:25healthier, and more healed. Today's
0:27guest is someone that I've been really,
0:29really looking forward to having on the
0:30show because I know you're always
0:32looking for advice around confidence,
0:34discipline, consistency, and actually
0:36making an impact in your career, your
0:38financial trajectory, and ultimately
0:40your life. Today's guest on purpose is
0:43Leila Hozi, self-made entrepreneur and
0:46investor who's built and scaled
0:48companies worth hundreds of millions of
0:50dollars. If you're someone who wants to
0:52grow your income, raise your standards,
0:54and build real wealth without losing
0:56your values, this conversation is
0:58essential. Please welcome to OnPurpose,
1:00Leila Homozi. Leila, it's great to have
1:02you here.
1:02>> It's so exciting to be here.
1:03>> Yeah, it's very rare I get to interview
1:05someone and then interview their partner
1:08and the fact that we had Alex on the
1:09show last year and we didn't get to meet
1:11and I'm so glad I get to meet you today
1:12and uh it's so fun that I get to
1:15interview both within 12 months.
1:17>> Yeah. I'm excited to hear what your
1:18conclusion is after you've done both.
1:20Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So
1:21great to have you here. Like I said to
1:22you earlier, our audience is so as
1:25aspirational. They're really excited
1:27about life. They want to do better, but
1:29things keep holding them back. And the
1:31question I wanted to start with you, I
1:32feel like we have this group of people
1:36today who really believe that they have
1:38to have confidence in order to make a
1:40difference in their life. They've got to
1:42build this skill and they're trying to
1:44figure out how to build confidence.
1:46Could you define for me what confidence
1:48is to you? When I hear people say that
1:50they want to build confidence, the
1:52reason why it's so difficult to do that
1:53is because confidence is it's an output.
1:56It's not an input. And so when you think
1:58about it, you don't get confidence by
2:01trying to be confident. Often times
2:04confidence comes after you are competent
2:06in something. And so for me, I didn't
2:08realize that. In fact, when I was uh 19
2:11and I was overweight and I was drinking
2:13and I was doing drugs and I was just
2:14like completely spiraling, I remember I
2:17literally had a mirror in my bathroom
2:18and I had affirmations writting
2:21these affirmations to myself. I'd be
2:22like, I'm beautiful. I can do this. I
2:24work hard. I I have money. I'm wealthy.
2:27And I would read them and I remember
2:29just thinking like none of this is true.
2:32And it felt really weird to me because I
2:33kept thinking like this is supposed to
2:34work. This is what I'm supposed to do.
2:36And then like nothing would happen. And
2:38I was like, why am I not feeling
2:39confident? I was insanely insecure. And
2:41by the way, like people that know me
2:42very well will say like you still are
2:43quite insecure. Like it's in different
2:45areas. I kept waiting to feel ready. And
2:47then I realized you don't ever feel
2:50ready until the second time that you do
2:52something. And that's because in order
2:54to feel confident, which is feeling
2:56ready in my opinion, you have to build
2:58competence in something. And the only
3:00way that you build competence is by
3:01building evidence for yourself to
3:03understand that you can actually do the
3:06thing. In order to do that, you have to
3:07pay the price, which is by having never
3:09done the thing before. And so, it wasn't
3:11until I said, I'm so sick of like being
3:14in my head trying to think my way into
3:16being confident instead I need to act my
3:17way into confidence. How would I do
3:19that? Okay. Well, I have to get
3:20competent at something. Well, at that
3:23point in my life, you know, I was like,
3:24I'm not really that good at anything. I
3:26wasn't really that skilled at anything.
3:27So, it would also make sense that you're
3:28not competent if you don't have that
3:29many skills, right? And so, I learned
3:32sales. That was the first thing I
3:33learned. I moved across the country. I
3:35didn't know anybody. I had $5,000 and I
3:38was like, I'm going to learn how to do
3:40this. I am also I was like viscerally
3:42opposed to the thought of sales, but I
3:44was like, I need to understand this. I
3:46need to understand these core skills
3:47otherwise I'm never going to be able to
3:48build a business. And so I drove out to
3:50California. I found the closest gym
3:53within walking distance. I applied to
3:56all of them, right? And then I took the
3:59one that was the absolute closest and I
4:01got the job. And I remember I started
4:03and they were like, "Cool. So, you
4:04understand how to help people lose
4:06weight and how to help people get
4:07healthy, but like you need to know how
4:08to market and sell yourself. And so,
4:10that meant like walking to Whole Foods
4:12and trying to get solicit people at the
4:13Whole Foods. That meant like when
4:14somebody was doing cardio, going up to
4:15them on the machine being like, "Do you
4:17need help?" And I remember the first
4:18time I walked up to a lady on the
4:21treadmill, it was the first person I
4:22ever walked up to. I'm telling my boss
4:23at this time, I'm like, "Dude, I don't
4:24know what I'm doing." He's like,
4:25"Listen, it's not going to be that bad.
4:26What's she going to say?" The first
4:27person I walk up to, of course, she
4:29looks at me and she was like, "Off."
4:31[laughter]
4:32And I was like, "Ah." And I remember I
4:35ran into the bathroom and I sat on the
4:36toilet in Whole Foods. Yes. And I was
4:38like, I literally think I'm going to
4:40have a panic attack. Like I felt so bad.
4:42I felt like my stomach was in my throat.
4:43I remember telling myself I was like,
4:45"You can't let yourself down. You've got
4:47to make this worth it. Like you drove
4:48out here. You quit everything. You told
4:50everyone that you were going to do this.
4:52You told everyone you become an
4:53entrepreneur and have a business." So I
4:54was like, "Okay, I'm going to focus on
4:56what I can do." And so I focused on how
4:58do I get as many nos as possible?
5:02And through getting all the nos and
5:04being rejected and seeing that I could
5:06handle it, which I was terrified of
5:08rejection prior to this, by the way,
5:09like bullied in school, not cool, like
5:11didn't have that many friends, like not
5:13cute, like it was just the whole thing.
5:14That was what built my confidence. And I
5:16think that so often we think that the
5:19thing that's going to make us confident
5:20is the thing that feels good. But what's
5:22good for us often feels bad in the
5:23moment. And what feels good in the
5:25moment is often bad for us in the long
5:27term. And that's really like the biggest
5:29lesson I learned. And then I realized I
5:30was like all the times that I built the
5:31most confidence in myself, I wasn't
5:33focused on being confident. I was
5:35focused on becoming the best version of
5:38myself I could be, which meant that I
5:40was becoming more competent and then by
5:42consequence I became confident. I never
5:44thought about I got to get more
5:45confident after I realized I was like it
5:47just happens naturally if you do these
5:49things.
5:50>> That's such a powerful answer and I just
5:52want to break that down for people. You
5:54said in order to feel confident first we
5:56have to develop competence which gives
5:58you the evidence which then builds
6:00confidence. And what I really appreciate
6:03about that answer is so many of us think
6:05confidence comes first. And like you
6:06said, you were saying the affirmations
6:08in the mirror. You're trying to believe
6:10it, whatever it may be. And the reality
6:12is is that what you actually needed was
6:14humility. Because what you just said is
6:16you went up to someone at Whole Foods
6:18and you try and sell something, whatever
6:19it may be, and they rejected you. And I
6:22think that's what's so interesting is
6:23that what we actually need is being okay
6:26with being bad at something.
6:27>> Yeah.
6:28>> Rather than the desire to want to feel
6:30good at it before you've ever even done
6:32it. And that applies to everything. The
6:34first time you go to the gym, you won't
6:36have a clue what to do. The first time
6:37you go on a date, you'll be confused.
6:39The first time you start a new job in
6:41sales where you've never made a sales
6:43call or a cold call, you won't know what
6:45to do. And so, it's actually the skill
6:47we should be developing is not
6:48confidence. It should be wanting to be
6:51bad at something and being okay with
6:53being humble and saying I don't know.
6:55Yeah. And that's why you just said which
6:57I love is I still feel insecure about
6:59different things because there are
7:01different things where you're still at
7:02the beginning of the journey.
7:04>> A thousand%. I love that you said that
7:05because um I studied a lot of psychology
7:08and there's one thing that I realized. I
7:09was like where do so much of my
7:11insecurity come from? And so much of my
7:13insecurity came from wanting to be
7:15perfect, wanting to like create this
7:17illusion that I was like really good at
7:18something. And I I had this motto that
7:21I've shared with a lot of people on my
7:22team where instead of trying to be good,
7:24I say, "How can I be bad?" And so I'm
7:25like, "I'm going to try and be a bad
7:26boss. I'm going to try and be a bad
7:28friend." And people are always so
7:29confused about like, "Why would you try
7:30and be bad?" I'm like, "Because in
7:32trying to be bad, it means that I
7:34actually take the risks required to be
7:36good.
7:37>> And if I don't take the risks, then I'm
7:39never going to get it." It's like, you
7:40know, I had someone that interviewed me
7:41not that long ago and they said, "Hey, I
7:44saw from your first company some reviews
7:46on glass door from 2016. They were
7:47pretty bad. So, you know, do you think
7:49what you did really worked?" And I said,
7:51"Do you think that I would have the
7:53massive success that I have at this
7:54young age right now if I wasn't willing
7:56to fail like that? I'm fine with looking
7:59bad. I'm fine with messing up. I'm
8:00writing a book right now. The whole
8:02thing is all lessons and failures."
8:03Because what's been so painful for me is
8:05that I think when I was on my journey of
8:06like, I want to be better. I want to be
8:08a high performer. I want to start a
8:09business. It's like I want to get in
8:10shape. I want to do all this stuff.
8:12Everything was so curated and fake and
8:14everyone was talking about like the
8:15Lamborghini and they've got this crazy
8:17house. They've got this vessel of like
8:19perfection and it was so hard for me to
8:21relate to people. And so also like as
8:24I've gone through this journey and and
8:25starting to make content, I'm like the
8:27one thing I never want people to think
8:28is that in order to have confidence,
8:30you're going to be perfect to have it.
8:31It's like no, you have to have the bad
8:33in order to have the good. And I think
8:35it's just are you willing to I think so
8:36much of it comes down to are you willing
8:38to experience the emotions that you
8:40don't want in order to get the ones that
8:41you do want. And I think a lot of people
8:43say that they will and say that they're
8:45willing but they're not. Because when
8:47everything inside of you feels like
8:48you're going to die, a lot of people run
8:50the other way because it might be
8:51stepping on stage makes you feel like
8:53you're going to die. Like maybe running
8:55a board meeting, maybe pitching somebody
8:56for the first time, selling something.
8:58Like I know that feeling where you want
8:59to crawl out of your skin. I think
9:01people have to take a really hard look
9:03in the mirror and say like am I willing
9:04to feel that in order to get this thing
9:05I want on the other side.
9:07>> Absolutely. So then the next question is
9:09how do you build that mindset that says
9:12I welcome this opportunity even though I
9:15may get laughed at may get rejected may
9:19feel like a failure. What is that then?
9:21What do we need to work on instead of
9:23confidence? For me, a lot of it has been
9:27acceptance
9:29more than it has been anything else.
9:30Because I think that I so much of what I
9:34think pained me in my early life before
9:37I was able to have the success I had was
9:39that I felt like there was something
9:42wrong with feeling insecure, with
9:45feeling bad, with negative feelings. And
9:47I actually see that a lot right now,
9:48which is we have and I think labels are
9:51really useful in a lot of situations,
9:52but I think that we sometimes tend to
9:54use them too much. I realize I had these
9:56beliefs that feeling immense anxiety,
10:00feeling terrified of something, feeling
10:02depressed when I didn't get what I
10:03wanted or I wasn't doing well, I felt
10:05like those were all really bad feelings
10:07that need to be avoided. And it wasn't
10:09until I changed the narrative around
10:11that and I said, I had this realization.
10:14I was super anxious when I was trying to
10:16lose weight and I had just stopped
10:18drinking and doing drugs and I remember
10:20it was like a Thursday and everyone's
10:21drinking and all stuff and I realized I
10:23had been feeling so terrible I was doing
10:25that right and I remember sitting there
10:27in my dorm and I was like I still feel
10:29anxious
10:30and then I realized I was like wow I've
10:33been doing all of this stuff like
10:35buffering suppressing and numbing to
10:38avoid these emotions that I still feel
10:40in fact I think they might be stronger
10:43>> and It sent me down this entire journey
10:45to understand like well what is this
10:46relationship that I have with myself and
10:49I had these very these beliefs that
10:51didn't serve me which was essentially
10:52like all of these emotions I labeled as
10:55bad maybe because of past experiences I
10:56had that felt really scary and terrible
10:58and maybe because of things I saw with
11:00other people but until I was willing to
11:02say I accept all of these in and these
11:05are okay and it I'm totally willing to
11:08feel these feelings in my life I wasn't
11:11able to achieve anything when it came to
11:13disciplining myself, confidence, etc.
11:15Because often times in pursuing
11:17something, that means that you're
11:18growing. And when you're growing, you're
11:20stepping into unknown territory. When
11:21you step in unknown territory, your
11:22brain freaks out. And it's like, I can't
11:24predict what's going to happen next. So,
11:25I'm going to try and scare you so that
11:27you go back to the comfort cave. Right?
11:29And in every time it would happen, I
11:32would say, "Cool, I'm going back to the
11:33comfort cave." But when I finally said,
11:35"What if I befriended these emotions?
11:37What if I said I will take them with
11:39me?" And I I talk about this a lot,
11:41which is like I see it like anxiety used
11:43to be I would be in the car with
11:44anxiety, right? Anxiety would be in the
11:46driver's seat driving us in some
11:47direction in my life and it would be
11:49dictating where I was going to go. Well,
11:52I still have anxiety in the car with me.
11:53The difference now is that I'm the one
11:56driving. It's sitting in the passenger
11:57seat or the back seat, but I'm still
12:00saying where I'm going to go. It's not
12:02like the feeling has gone away, but my
12:04relationship with it has changed. and
12:06befriending those very like negative
12:08emotions
12:10that has allowed me to do pretty much
12:11everything in life. And I think that's
12:12why I love growing a business. That's
12:13why I love, you know, trying I set out
12:16on making content. All these things,
12:17they were things that I felt like, wow,
12:19if I do those things, I will have to
12:21become the type of person who is able to
12:23really befriend more of those emotions.
12:25And
12:27that has made me more confident than any
12:30affirmation or any applause or any
12:32comment on Instagram has ever made me.
12:34It's just been doing that, being utterly
12:36terrified, being okay with being utterly
12:39terrified, and then doing the thing
12:40anyways. And then afterwards, having
12:43that feeling of absolute relief, and
12:45then proud of myself to be like, "You
12:47did it." Like, "You wereing terrified,
12:49and you did it anyways." And that's been
12:52like the key to everything for me. It's
12:54always been anytime I get stuck in life.
12:57It's like I look at where I'm at and I
12:58pull myself out and I'm like, "You're
12:59not leaning into it. You're trying to
13:01avoid the emotion." And I have to catch
13:02myself because our minds are tricky and
13:04say, "Nope, you got to go into it." It's
13:06like I I say the get get out of the
13:08comfort cave and get out into the world.
13:10I love the visual of you driving in
13:13anxiety being in the back seat because I
13:15love the idea of how we let anxiety have
13:18the wheel and then drive our life in all
13:20different directions. And you're so
13:22right that I, as in me included, I still
13:25feel anxiety today. I still feel
13:27insecure today. I still feel like I have
13:29to prove myself today. I all those
13:30things. And it's those things that
13:33you've learned how to use, engage,
13:36discuss, debate, discover what they're
13:39really saying, what the signal is, but
13:41they don't disappear. And I think that
13:43desire we all have is that the day they
13:46disappear, I will discover what my
13:48passion is and live my purpose and
13:50whatever else it may be. It's like well
13:52that doesn't happen for anyone because
13:54yeah I don't know anyone even the like
13:57I've been fortunate enough to meet so
13:58many amazing people and it's like
14:00there's even the best athletes in the
14:02world that have won everything still
14:04feel scared stepping out into the court
14:05and you could be like well why because
14:07they've done it a million times and it's
14:09like no this is a different day their
14:10body's different their energy is
14:12different meaning more stakes everything
14:15changes and so this belief that we all
14:17have is that one day we'll get to a day
14:19where from that day onwards everything
14:21will be easy. And I don't know anyone
14:23who feels that way because they're just
14:25playing in a different league.
14:26>> And so you're just going up the leagues
14:28and every league has different
14:29challenges. What do you feel? What do
14:32you see? You work with so many young
14:34people, business leaders, CEOs, you have
14:37people of different organizations coming
14:39to you for advice. What do you see is
14:41the number one thing holding people back
14:43from having success in their life? So
14:46often, you know, people come to me and
14:49they're like, I just want you to tell me
14:50the marketing hack or the sales hack or
14:52and I'm like, listen, that's where I
14:54started. I started in sales and
14:55marketing. The reason I talk about
14:57everything else I talk about is because
14:58I realized that that's not what ends
15:00businesses. So, I'll give you a story to
15:02demonstrate this. Um,
15:03>> you know, we had a company that we
15:05worked with and that company was like
15:08crazy growth. Like we started with them,
15:09they were doing like 2 million a year.
15:11um within three years that company is
15:14doing 90 million a year, crushing it.
15:17Absolutely absurd.
15:19They get a threat from a competitor.
15:22That competitor starts to point out
15:24things in their marketing on their
15:25website, all stuff like of all these
15:27things that like they're going to try
15:28and take them down for and they're going
15:29to copy and their competitor start
15:30copying other stuff and then threatening
15:31other things. Their competitor then, you
15:33know, serves them with like a lawsuit
15:34and is like, "Hey, I'm going to sue you
15:36for this thing." And we're like, "Dude,
15:37they have no grounds. Like, don't even
15:38worry about it." And I I know cuz like
15:39when I had my first lawsuit, I'm like up
15:41at night, you know, like, "Oh my gosh,
15:42this is so scary." And nothing happened.
15:44So they get into this lawsuit within 6
15:48months of the lawsuit being served, the
15:51company was at zero. The company was not
15:53at zero because of the lawsuit. In fact,
15:55the lawsuit ended and they won.
15:58the company was at zero because the
16:00founder, she was so unstable that she
16:05ended up shutting down the business
16:08because she couldn't handle it anymore.
16:10And I remember being on the phone with
16:11her and she literally said, she gives me
16:14all these reasons, right? It's the
16:15marketing, it's the sales, it's this
16:16that they're giving me, it's this piece
16:17that they're serving me. And it all came
16:20down to I was like, but you could do
16:22this, but you could do that, but we can
16:23do this. Like, please trust me. This is
16:25why I'm your partner because I can get
16:27you through this. like I've been in many
16:28lawsuits. And she was like, I just can't
16:32handle it. And it was like in that
16:33moment, I remember I was like, the
16:35number one reason that people cannot
16:36grow a business and that they they don't
16:38succeed is because they cannot manage
16:40their own mind. They cannot manage their
16:41mind and they cannot manage their
16:42emotions. And I've just seen it so many
16:44times like the market doesn't put you
16:46out of business. You put you out of
16:48business. The same thing happened during
16:50CO. I mean, we had thousands at that
16:54time of customers that were business
16:55owners that we worked with. And I saw
16:58the amount of people that CO didn't end
17:01their business. Their inability to
17:03manage their emotions during CO is what
17:05ended their business because eventually
17:07they would just throw in the towel and
17:08they would make up some excuse outside
17:10of themselves. It was the market, it was
17:12the lawsuit, it was the fact that they
17:13told us they had to be 6 feet apart,
17:14whatever it might be. And it always came
17:16down to the fact that they didn't want
17:18to tolerate those feelings anymore. They
17:20had a low frustration tolerance. They
17:22couldn't tolerate the feelings of
17:24uncertainty. They couldn't tolerate the
17:25feelings of frustration. They couldn't
17:27tolerate the feelings of
17:28unpredictability.
17:30And I have just seen every big business
17:33that I've seen go down, which I've seen
17:35I would say five more businesses besides
17:37the one I just told you about, it was
17:39always because the founder didn't have
17:40enough emotional management. they could
17:42not manage themselves emotionally during
17:44those turmoil like those situations that
17:46felt like turmoil. And I will tell you,
17:48you know, there was a time where I was
17:50um in so much pain I could, you know, I
17:51was working from the couch every day. I
17:54had four lawsuits on my plate. I was
17:56having issues with some stuff personally
17:58with my family. And in my business, I
18:00was also I had 12 direct reports. I had
18:03four new people I just hired. And I was
18:05performing 3 days a week. And the only
18:08reason that I was able to do that was I
18:10was like, I am going to double down on
18:12making sure that I can manage this. And
18:14I it it was the hardest season of my
18:16life, but I got through it and I'm
18:17better for it. That's what breaks most
18:20people. It's when everything collides at
18:22once. And then how do I deal with the
18:24uncertainty? How do I deal with the
18:26frustration, the anger, the anxiety? And
18:28then they just say they find some reason
18:30outside of themselves and they point to
18:31it and say that's why it didn't work.
18:33>> Every time.
18:34>> I did not expect that answer.
18:35>> Really?
18:36>> Yeah. That's a great answer. I really
18:37like that. I I couldn't agree with you
18:39more. And now I'm starting to think
18:40about so many people that I know and
18:43think about people that even made it and
18:44won. And you're absolutely spot on that
18:48it is so much to do with the mindset and
18:51you choosing whether you're staying in
18:53business or not. Talk to me about that
18:56first uncertainty you face, that first
18:59lawsuit, that first whatever it was that
19:02you decide to choose to answer this
19:04question. What was that first moment
19:06where you didn't have now you have all
19:08this evidence and competence of dealing
19:11with markets changing managing big teams
19:15acquiring businesses and taking them
19:17before all of that. The first time you
19:20hit uncertainty how did you manage your
19:23mind in order to find the evidence that
19:25that was the answer? When I started my
19:27first business, I was 23 and by the age
19:30of 24, I had 120 employees and the
19:34business had gone from like zero to 50
19:37million in like less than 2 years. And
19:40so my entire journey of like one being
19:43very young, having never managed anyone
19:45before, having just been this person who
19:47was like arrested and drugs and all this
19:48stuff, it was the most uncertainty I've
19:51ever felt in my life. I mean to the
19:52degree that it was the hardest period of
19:54my life because of the amount of
19:56uncertainty, it was also where I grew
19:58the most because I didn't let it I think
20:00about it like um the frog boiling. It's
20:03like the water kept getting hotter and I
20:04just kept saying like how do I how do I
20:06also raise with the water? And so when I
20:09think back to what I was able to do, I
20:12had to put in place practices to take
20:14care of myself. And it sounds, you know,
20:16trite, you know, people say um they're
20:19like, "Oh, taking care of yourself,
20:20that's soft." Well, there's nothing soft
20:21about winning. So, that's what I say in
20:23return to that. I learned very early on
20:25like what are the things that I have to
20:27do to maintain my sanity throughout all
20:29of this. And so, you know, I remember I
20:32had I would have meetings starting at
20:338:00 a.m. and it would be going until,
20:35you know, 6:00 or 7:00 p.m. And I said,
20:37"Great, then I'm going to get up at
20:394:30. I'm going to journal. I'm going to
20:42walk. I'm going to make breakfast. I'm
20:44going to have coffee. I'm going to
20:45listen to or meditate, whatever it might
20:47be." And then throughout the day, I was
20:49like, "Okay, I need one period between
20:50the a break here where I can take 10
20:52minutes to get outside, go on a walk."
20:54And I had been ruthless about doing that
20:56my entire career. I know what I have to
20:58do to keep myself in a the right mental
21:01state. I have to have I I look about
21:03think about like this. I'm pouring my
21:04cup out all day. And I'm also being that
21:07person that's there for everybody when
21:08it's uncertain. And I know it's
21:09uncertain cuz I'm feeling uncertain
21:10about it. I have to fill my cup back up.
21:12And it sounds so cheesy, but it has been
21:15the key to why I've been able to
21:17continue doing this. And I'm obsessed
21:18with studying how do people that are
21:20high performers keep not I don't care if
21:22you can win for 5 years. I really don't.
21:24I don't even care if you can win for 10.
21:25I'm like, who can win for 30 or 40
21:27years? And I realized that there's a lot
21:30of similarities around those people. And
21:32so I studied that ruthlessly in my free
21:34time, which was when I got up at 4:30 in
21:36the morning uh and after everybody went
21:38to sleep at night. And so the biggest
21:40thing I noticed is that they will
21:41absolutely do the things that they know
21:43needed to do to take care of themselves.
21:45So I think about it like this. If you
21:46saw an athlete that was performing, you
21:49know, you've interviewed many of them,
21:51right? Let's say it's Michael Jordan,
21:53right? And would you expect that he's
21:56pushing himself all day? Like he
21:57wouldn't take a nap, he wouldn't get a
21:59massage. He wouldn't do physical
22:00therapy. He wouldn't It's like no.
22:01That's like part of the plan is that
22:02there has to be recovery because you're
22:04pushing very hard. Your body needs it. I
22:06think about business the same way. It's
22:08like what do you do to recover from all
22:10the output that you're putting out
22:11there? And I realized really early on
22:13that in order to deal with the amount of
22:15uncertainty I was dealing with, I had to
22:17create these anchors for myself where I
22:19felt a sense of stability in my own
22:21life. Like I had some sense of control
22:23cuz there's so much we can't control in
22:24life. But I had to have these areas
22:26where I had these like little nuggets
22:27where I could control things and I could
22:29bring myself back into the state of mind
22:31where I remember like why am I doing
22:32this, right? Okay. And the reason why is
22:34like it's always been the same for me,
22:36which is I want to be the best version
22:38of myself I can possibly be. And then
22:39people say, "Well, why would you want to
22:40do that?" What? Well, I guess it's my
22:42belief about life, which is what else am
22:43I going to do until I die? I would like
22:45to know what this body and soul are
22:46capable of. And so, I'm [snorts] just
22:49like, the only thing that will stop me
22:50is if I wear myself out. I don't I don't
22:53train like it's a marathon. I train like
22:54it's a sprint. And that's the biggest
22:56thing I've realized over time is I've
22:57just seen so many people that they get
23:00started in something and then the amount
23:01of uncertainty they're they don't have
23:04enough skills to take care of themselves
23:06that they end up opting out. So I think
23:08about it like this. A lot of people that
23:10are high performers, we have these
23:12skills. We can push really hard. We can
23:14discipline. We can press on the gas. But
23:17you also have to have these skills if
23:18you're indexing here, which is like, do
23:20you know when to rest? Do you know when
23:21to take care of yourself? Do you know
23:22how to take care of your mindset? or are
23:23you just white knuckling through
23:25everything which that runs out because
23:27that's not that's not discipline that's
23:29just willpower which we have a certain
23:32amount of but I would like to save it
23:33for the things that matter not the
23:34things that don't matter that's been
23:37what got me through a lot of times of
23:38uncertainty is whenever I have more
23:40uncertainty in my life I say great now
23:42that I have more uncertainty what more
23:44do I need to do for myself to get
23:46through it and I treat myself like I
23:48would treat a friend it's like I'd be
23:49like great I have a therapist I have
23:51coaches I have mentors I have people I
23:53consult with. I have people I can call.
23:54I have friends I can talk to. Like I try
23:57to collect all sorts of support for
23:59myself so I can support the amount of
24:00uncertainty I have in my life. And if I
24:03don't have people to support me, I
24:05cannot support the weight of the
24:07uncertainty that that is in my hands.
24:09>> You know, it's like when you walk into a
24:10building, no one ever goes, "Ah, this
24:13place has amazing foundations."
24:15>> Right? You've never said that. If you
24:16walk inside a beautiful building,
24:18whether it's in New York or Singapore or
24:20anywhere in the world, you walk in and
24:22you go, "Wow, this and you look up and
24:24you go, "Oh, this place is incredible."
24:26Like, it's so high and it's so
24:27beautiful. And then you don't realize
24:29that there's these really, really deep
24:31foundations. Actually, the taller the
24:33building, the deeper and stronger the
24:34foundations are, but you don't see them.
24:36And it's the same as what you're saying.
24:37Whether it was waking up at 4:30,
24:40journaling, listening, finding space,
24:42meditating, whatever your version of it
24:44was, that's your foundation. And that's
24:46what exactly what you just said. The
24:48higher I wanted to go, the deeper the
24:50foundations have to be. The more people
24:52I needed to help me hold that anxiety
24:54and hold that uncertainty, which is so
24:56powerful because I think so many
24:58entrepreneurs believe they just have to
25:00do it themselves. That a really good
25:02entrepreneur is someone who just does it
25:04on their own. And yes, those people
25:05weren't helping you build the business,
25:07but they were helping you carry your
25:08emotions.
25:09>> Yeah.
25:10>> And and that's such an interesting uh
25:13connection because I think we think of
25:14business success as so separate to
25:18emotional human connection and it's
25:21according to you and I see you shaking
25:22your head right now.
25:23>> It's crazy to me that people think that
25:25like it's absolutely crazy to me and I
25:27mean I will say this I think that there
25:28are people that are anomalies for the
25:30amount of anomalies there are. there are
25:31hundred more people for everyone that
25:34are doing it because they have that kind
25:35of support.
25:36>> Yeah.
25:36>> And I also think about like what kind of
25:38life do I want to live and I I want to
25:40be great. Like I want to be the best
25:42version of myself I can be but I also
25:44don't believe that I need to do it alone
25:46and I don't think anybody wants to. I
25:47don't think that's fun.
25:48>> Yeah.
25:49>> You know that's just like people like
25:51I'm burnt out. I'm like are what are you
25:52do you have friends? Are you doing
25:53things alone? Do you have people to
25:55support you? It's funny. It's like such
25:56a correlation there. It's like they're
25:58often like no I have like one person.
25:59>> Yeah. And people always say that
26:01statement of it's lonely at the top, but
26:03it doesn't have to be because it's a
26:05choice of of of building that. And I'm
26:07thinking of something really wonderful
26:08actually because of what you just said.
26:11I've noticed that as my career has
26:12grown, I talk more to my oldest friends
26:15>> and I have less time today. So it
26:17doesn't make sense. So I moved to the
26:18States 10 years ago when I started my
26:20online work and I talk to my best friend
26:23who was my best man at my wedding. I
26:25talk to him like three times a week
26:26right now. And I don't know where I find
26:28the time. Yeah. But somehow I do and I'm
26:30thinking that's the reason I do it. I
26:32didn't even think about it that way
26:34until you said it. I just thought, "Oh,
26:35our relationship's just got better." And
26:37even though he lives in a totally
26:39different time zone, we find a way to
26:41connect with each other. But it's
26:43exactly what you're saying. Because my
26:44anxietyy's increased.
26:45>> Yeah.
26:46>> And because the amount I have to hold
26:47has increased, the amount I have to give
26:49has increased, I lean more on the people
26:51in my life that have been there the
26:53longest, who know me the deepest, who
26:55know me the best. And even if I'm doing
26:58it subconsciously, that is the reason
26:59why it's happening.
27:00>> Oh, a thousand%. It's interesting you
27:02say that cuz like we, you know, we
27:03brought on a third partner, his name's
27:05Chiron, and we work together like all
27:07day every day, and we had a conversation
27:09like 2 weeks ago. And he came to me and
27:11he said, "I had a revelation last
27:12night." I said, "What?" He said, "We
27:14both do better the more we talk." And
27:16he's like, "So, let's set up like
27:17because we would we'll talk in the
27:18morning, at night, whatever is
27:19convenient." We're like, "Cool." So, we
27:20set up three calls a week. We're like,
27:22"Let's just get them so they're on the
27:23books." And we were talking about it.
27:25They're like there's so much hard stuff
27:27to do and it weighs on us. But if you
27:30can share it with somebody and that can
27:33support you, it just feels so much
27:34lighter.
27:35>> Yeah. Yeah. This idea of journaling and
27:39also taking a business from 2 to 90
27:41million, there's this gap filled by
27:44discipline.
27:45>> Yeah. Because getting up and like you
27:46said, you've never compromised on those
27:48habits in your career and then being
27:50able to scale multiple businesses to 50
27:51million your first or 90 million with
27:53the example you just gave. That takes
27:56discipline and consistency. But one of
27:58the things we see today in the world, I
28:00think people have started to recognize
28:01discipline is important.
28:02>> Yeah.
28:02>> But it's the thing that we all massively
28:05struggle to build. People kind of will
28:07make they'll post a video every day for
28:09a week and then give up or people will
28:11wake up and go to the gym for a month
28:13and then give up. We know that that's
28:15the common trait that happens. What's
28:17the difference between people who build
28:20discipline and those where it always
28:22breaks down? What's the difference
28:23between those two types of people?
28:24>> There's no difference in the person. I
28:26think that's like the biggest fallacy
28:27that I see people like you're
28:28disciplined. It's like no, you know how
28:30to build discipline. Discipline's a
28:32system. And so the easiest way to
28:34explain it is that if you want to be
28:36disciplined, make it easier to do the
28:39things that you want to do to achieve
28:41your goals and harder to do the things
28:44that work against your goals. So a great
28:46example is this. People are like, I'm
28:48just not disciplined. You know, like I
28:50I'm eating ice cream every night. I just
28:52can't seem to lose weight. Well,
28:54discipline, if we look at it like a
28:55system, you have a prompt in your house.
28:58You have ice cream in your refrigerator.
28:59That's a literal trigger for you to eat
29:01the ice cream. So, let's remove it and
29:04then let's insert I don't know vegetable
29:06sticks or I wouldn't do that but like I
29:08would do like a hot cocoa diet hot cocoa
29:10that's a good one for me. Um and I would
29:11put it in the same place. And so it's
29:14interesting cuz like when I went to lose
29:15weight I didn't say to myself like oh
29:17you're a piece of because you can't
29:19lose weight. I was like oh I don't have
29:20good systems in place. How do I make it
29:23as easy as possible for me to do the
29:26steps that I need to do to lose weight?
29:28How do I make it as easy as possible for
29:30me not to drink? How do I make it? So,
29:32okay, let's look up each of those.
29:33Easiest possible not to drink. Easiest
29:35thing I did, I lived with six people who
29:36all drink. What did I do? Move out.
29:39Like, it's so simple, but it's like half
29:41of the the trigger. Like, I would say
29:4450% of my desire to drink went away
29:46immediately because I was around people
29:48doing it all the time. And it was a
29:49constant prompt. Hey, remember you like
29:52drinking, drink, drink, drink, drink.
29:53Prompting me all day. Now, on the other
29:56hand, when I was like, okay, I'm trying
29:58to lose weight. The first thing I did, I
30:00did two things. I was like, I'm getting
30:01rid of all the junk food in my house.
30:03The second thing, I deleted and got rid
30:05of anything on my phone that I could
30:07order food with because what are the two
30:09ways that I'm going to get junk food?
30:10It's either going to be in my house, I'm
30:11going to order it. Now, if I want junk
30:12food, I'm going to drive. Oh [laughter]
30:14my god. Now, there's like so many
30:16reasons why I'm not going to do that.
30:18That doesn't mean I think a lot of
30:19people think in order to be disciplined,
30:22it means that you have more desire. No,
30:24my desire for that ice cream was hot,
30:26[laughter]
30:27>> but there's so much friction to get it.
30:30>> Yes.
30:30>> That it's just like, "Oh, I guess
30:32I'll just deal with the desire."
30:33>> Yeah.
30:34>> And most people have it working the
30:35opposite direction because a lot of
30:36people say they're like, you know, they
30:38look at discipline. And I think
30:39discipline is just doing things
30:41consistently to get you to what you
30:42want.
30:43>> Lots of people do things consistently to
30:45not get what they want. You consistently
30:46eat the ice cream. You consistently
30:48don't go to the gym. you consistently.
30:49So you have systems set up to make it
30:51easy for you to not achieve your goals.
30:54>> And so we have to switch those systems.
30:56That's it.
30:56>> So good.
30:57>> It's a terrible thing that so many
30:58people like you're not disciplined. No,
31:01you don't have the skill of building
31:03discipline systems around you. It's such
31:04a different way to look at it. And some
31:07of these things are very easy. Like if
31:08you were to look at my phone, you know,
31:10when I open my phone in the morning, the
31:11first thing that I have is that I have a
31:14notification for insight timer which I
31:15use and it says like time to meditate. I
31:18have meditated it's now 179 days in a
31:20row and that's when I first started I'm
31:21going to meditate every day at this
31:23point in my life. You know the second
31:24thing I have is that I have my my
31:26fitness bell and it pops up and I have a
31:27prompt on it where I I put a little
31:29prompt for every time I eat where it it
31:31comes up on my phone as a reminder from
31:33my iPhone and it says log your food.
31:36>> I don't is that discipline or is it my
31:38environment reminding me to do
31:39something?
31:40>> Yeah.
31:40>> Memory is a liability. A lot of people
31:43think, I need to remember. I'm going to
31:45remember that I want to lose weight and
31:47that I want to be an amazing girlfriend
31:49and that I want to build a business and
31:50my memory and desire should create the
31:54result. That is a fallacy. There are
31:56going to be so many things that take
31:57your attention all day. So, how are you
31:59going to build in systems that grab your
32:01attention? Just triggers. It's like it
32:03could be a piece of paper. It could be a
32:05note you write for yourself. It could be
32:06not having the food in the house. It
32:08could be a friend that calls you. A text
32:10you have. We have to make it easier to
32:12achieve our goals, not harder.
32:13>> That is the best breakdown of systems
32:15I've ever heard, honestly. Because I've
32:16heard this idea of systems before, but
32:18the way you just put it as to how we
32:21already have systems in place that are
32:23actually failing us. And I always joke
32:25about how to some people like we have
32:27the most miserable snack drawer in the
32:29world. And what I mean by that is it is
32:31full of great snacks, but they're all
32:32healthy because my wife will not allow
32:34for anything that has a certain level of
32:37sugar in the house, a certain level of
32:38this, artificial products, whatever. And
32:40it's almost like when I was a kid, I
32:42thought, "God, if I ever had a house on
32:43a snack drawer, it would be full of
32:45like, you know, Sour Patch Kids and
32:46M&M's and this and that." My wife was
32:48like, "Nope." Like, because and you're
32:49so right, out of sight, out of mind.
32:51It's the simplest rule in the book. Yet,
32:54we make it hard for ourselves. And then
32:56we think we're not disciplined people.
32:58And we think we're not a good person,
33:00and we think we don't care enough, and
33:02we think we don't want it enough, and we
33:04think people like us don't get there,
33:05and we internalize all these poor
33:08systems. And then you feel worse about
33:10yourself when it was never about you at
33:12all. Because like you just said, if I
33:14had chocolate fudge cake right now in my
33:16refrigerator, that is exactly what I
33:18would eat tonight. Like that's what I
33:20desire. If you ask me what I desire
33:22right now, that's what I want. I'm
33:23addicted to I used to be addicted to
33:24chocolate. But it's like if it's not
33:26available, and you're right about the
33:28apps, then I have to all this friction.
33:30And so I love the idea of creating
33:32friction because we think there's
33:33friction to get to our goals, but the
33:35friction is just what you already have
33:38around you. a thousand%. You know, it's
33:39funny cuz I look at in every aspect of
33:41life, like, okay, you want to get
33:43married and people are like, well, this
33:45guy cheated this and that. I'm like,
33:46well, he probably made it really easy to
33:47cheat and then they're like, "What do
33:49you mean by that?" Something that me and
33:51Alex was one of the first pieces of
33:52advice that we got from, I'll say, a
33:54mentor when we got married. He said, "If
33:56you don't want to cheat, don't go out
33:57with your single friends." And at the
33:59time, I just thought, "Okay." But then I
34:01really thought about that with this new
34:02lens later on. I was like, "Oh, don't
34:04put yourself in environments where
34:06you're prompted to cheat."
34:07>> Mhm. What's the easiest way not to
34:09cheat? To put yourself in environments
34:11where you're reminded of your amazing
34:12marriage and to not put yourself in
34:14environments where you're constantly
34:15tempted to cheat.
34:16>> Yeah.
34:16>> And I think there's been a lot of
34:18studies on that that I' I've seen come
34:19out where it is like uh the more single
34:21friends that you have, the more likely
34:23you are to cheat.
34:24>> No way.
34:24>> Yeah. Versus the more married happy
34:26friends you have, the more likely you
34:27are to stay happy and married.
34:29>> It's like because your environment, the
34:31people around you, the things around
34:32you, all the that prompts you.
34:34>> Yeah. And so it's it's actually
34:35something me and Alex talk about a lot
34:37because, you know, either of us, for
34:38example, if we get invited to a bachelor
34:39or bachelorette party, we say no. And
34:41we're like, well, why? We're like, well,
34:43they're just going to go out and get
34:45single and, you know, try and get with
34:47people. We're like, I don't want to put
34:49myself in that situation. We're not
34:51like, oh, you don't have enough
34:52willpower [laughter] not to cheat on me.
34:53I'm like, no, don't do it. I ain't going
34:55to do it either, okay? Like, we're just
34:57not going to put ourselves in this
34:58situation.
34:58>> Yeah. Yeah.
34:59>> It's kind of like, okay, if I don't want
35:00to drink and do drugs, maybe I shouldn't
35:01go out past 11 because what happens
35:03after 11 with anybody sober? Not much.
35:05>> Yeah. [laughter]
35:06And it's also like, why put yourself in
35:08a position where you're always testing
35:09yourself, right? It's like your life's
35:11hard enough. Why are you making it
35:13harder to do the things you really want
35:15to commit to and push yourself because
35:18you're just testing yourself now? Every
35:19evening is an exam and every weekend's
35:22an exam. And it's like, why are you
35:23trying to pass and fail the test?
35:24Because chances are you're going to be
35:26exhausted by the end of the week. you
35:28will fail the test, whatever that may
35:29be. Whether it's waking up early,
35:31whether it's building a business, if
35:33you're partying all weekend and you're
35:35surrounded by people who are not
35:36building a business, of course you're
35:38not going to wake up early on a Monday
35:39morning and get to work.
35:40>> No.
35:41>> Because you failed you failed the test
35:43because of course you're exhausted and
35:44of course you've just been trying to
35:46live life.
35:47>> Yeah. Talk to me about this idea of work
35:50life balance because it feels like it's
35:53still a big conversation and it feels
35:55like in today's generation it's almost
35:57like seen as the biggest priority where
35:59we want to have the biggest win but we
36:02want to have the biggest break. Talk to
36:04me about how you've seen that in your
36:05life and in the people you mentor. I
36:07don't know if my opinion is um
36:10popular, but I think that a lot of
36:13people talk about work life balance
36:15because they associate work with pain
36:17and suffering. And so I see a lot of
36:19people say, "I need work life balance
36:21because they don't actually enjoy their
36:22work." And I think that's a skill to
36:26know what kind of work you will enjoy.
36:28When I tell people I'm like, "Oh, I'm,
36:30you know, yesterday was a light day. I
36:31worked 12 hours, you know, and it's like
36:33what?" But I work with my spouse. I have
36:36I'm friends with all the people that I
36:37work with. I genuinely want to talk to
36:39all of them. I work with my father. I
36:41work with my family. Like why would I
36:43not want to be doing that? Like I enjoy
36:45it. I genuinely do. And I find a lot of
36:46meaning in what I'm doing. And so I
36:48think that one I think that
36:50unfortunately a lot of work like for
36:52people that have jobs, they've had such
36:55terrible jobs and they've let that kind
36:56of taint their vision, their version of
36:58like what what does work mean to you? Um
37:00and I get that because I had a terrible
37:02boss once. Well, I actually I had an
37:04amazing boss and then a year after um he
37:07was the one that like got me into sales
37:08and like helped me get through that
37:10season. They switched him out with a
37:12different boss. He was a terrible boss.
37:13And I went from like loving my life to
37:15being like I don't want to I'm like
37:17crying in the parking lot. I don't even
37:18want to come in to work any day. I feel
37:20miserable. And I remember realizing
37:24looking back, this is why people don't
37:26like work and work gets a bad rap
37:27because there's so many people that
37:30almost like make the work so much harder
37:33than it need be. Because it wasn't work
37:34that I didn't like, it was him. And I
37:37think a lot of people have negative
37:39associations with work. And that also
37:40makes sense because you spend most of
37:42your time at work. Things are going to
37:44happen that are going to suck. Things
37:45are going to happen that might really
37:47rock you. But if you allow that
37:49narrative to stick, then I don't think
37:50you can get to this other side where
37:52work can act cuz you be something that
37:53you enjoy. So I think that's one piece
37:55is like I really feel like that's a
37:58difficult piece of it. And I also think
37:59that kind of goes hand in hand with like
38:01and I see a lot of people who want to be
38:02entrepreneurs, they want to have status,
38:03they want to have fame, but they don't
38:05want to be good leaders. And that is
38:06hard because I think that that also
38:08taints people's view of work. People
38:10that are not entrepreneurs, right? It's
38:11like now you have bad leaders, you have
38:13negative associations with work. So yes,
38:15people like I need to be done at 5
38:16because this is painful for me to be
38:18doing this all day. I'm exhausted and I
38:20don't like it. But if you like it, if
38:22you like anything, you want to do more
38:24of it. And so when I thought about like
38:26what do I want in life? I want work that
38:29doesn't make me want to stop working.
38:31Like if I feel like I have to end at 5,
38:33which by the way, you probably want to
38:34end doing anything at some point in the
38:35day cuz you're just tired. I
38:36don't know what else to say. Like I
38:38could be with my husband be like, I'm
38:39done with you. [laughter] Like we've
38:40been around each other enough today. I
38:42could be working out and be like, I'm
38:43exhausted. I've been in the gym 3 hours.
38:45I could be talking to girlfriends and be
38:46like, I'm done. Like, we have nothing to
38:47talk about in 4 hours. So, anything at
38:49some point in the day, you only have so
38:50much energy. But when you build this
38:53association
38:54thinking that this thing called work
38:57needs to be some it's like this
38:58association built that it's something
39:00that you dislike and it's hard and bad.
39:02We live in this world that is so
39:04freaking cool right now. So many people
39:06get to choose what they can do and
39:07there's so many options. It's not just
39:08do I get this job or this job. It's I
39:10can build this thing. I can do this
39:11online. I can become an influencer here.
39:13I can sell here. I can do. There's so
39:14many options. And I think it's mostly
39:16that people are optimizing for the wrong
39:19outcome, which is I'll tell you this.
39:21This will wrap it all up. A lot of
39:23people sit down. They think what do I
39:25want to what they really are thinking
39:27when they're thinking what job do I
39:28want? What business do I want? Is what
39:29are people going to applaud me for? And
39:32then because of that, they sign up for
39:33something that they don't actually like.
39:34They're not good at and they're not
39:35engineered for. And then they don't like
39:37it. And then they need balance. When I
39:39started acquisition.com,
39:41it was weeks of thinking to myself, what
39:44do I like doing every day? Who are the
39:46people I want to be surrounded by? What
39:47are the things I like doing? What could
39:49I see myself doing for 30 years?
39:52Then build the business off of that,
39:54knowing that I can still be doing those
39:56things throughout the whole time. That's
39:58why I love what I do now, even more than
40:01my first business. My first business,
40:02that was not how I built it. It was
40:04like, okay, well, this worked. It made
40:05money. Let's build it. And I was like,
40:07why do I not I I need like I was
40:09exhausted. I felt like I needed balance.
40:11I like needed to not look at slack after
40:12a certain time. It felt punishing. And
40:15with this, it's so different. And it's
40:16because I engineered it to be that work
40:18is something I like doing. And so I
40:20think rather than thinking like how do I
40:22put more balance in my life, it's
40:23thinking how do I make work something
40:25that I enjoy doing? And I don't think
40:28that people put a lot of thought into
40:30that. And some people might listen to
40:31this and maybe think, well, I can't do
40:34that. like I can only work this job. I
40:37only have this many resources. I have
40:38this much money. I mean, I can even tell
40:39you that when I was a cashier at a
40:42smoothie stand. I remember talking to my
40:45boss and she inspired me so much because
40:47she said, "How can you make just every
40:49person's day better by working here?"
40:50Because I said, "The job is kind of
40:51boring. I just want to go home." And so
40:54I made it into almost like a video game.
40:56I was like, "How is it that every person
40:57that walks up, I can just make them
40:59smile when they walk away?" It sounds so
41:01cheesy, but then I started liking work
41:03because I saw that I made all these
41:04people smile just by being a cashier.
41:06And then eventually like I didn't want
41:08to stop working. And it's funny cuz now
41:10I look back on I'm like that was one of
41:11the best jobs I ever had.
41:12>> And it had nothing to do with the work
41:13and everything to do with how I viewed
41:14the work.
41:15>> Yeah.
41:15>> And so I think it's like either I think
41:17there's two ways you hit it which is how
41:19do you make sure that the thing that you
41:20do for work is something you like to the
41:22best of your ability and then how do you
41:24make sure that you don't have a shitty
41:25mindset about anything you're doing. And
41:26a lot of people have such a negative
41:28filter at which they see everything in
41:29the world. They don't see the
41:30opportunity to become a better version
41:32of themselves and anything that they're
41:33doing that it just feels like this
41:35boring tedious thing you're doing every
41:36day. It's like, yeah, but this right
41:38here, the tedious thing you're doing is
41:40exactly what people who lose don't do
41:43and who don't become the person that
41:45they want to be. And so those are the
41:47two ways that I think about it. Again,
41:49probably not popular, but but there's a
41:52great study that I read that backs up
41:54that point of view. It was a few years
41:56ago by Amy Rousnooki and her team at
41:59Yale. So in 2019, they went out across
42:02America to discover what they believed
42:04was the most difficult job in the
42:05states.
42:06>> And so they spoke to lots of jobs,
42:07interviewed lots of jobs, and they
42:09decided it was being a hospital cleaner.
42:12>> Now, this was before the pandemic. You
42:13can only imagine how much harder it
42:15became. But I think we can all agree
42:17that being a hospital cleaner sounds
42:18like a pretty tough job. cleaning
42:20plates, toilets, bed sheets, floors,
42:22cleaning up after people use those
42:24things, cleaning up after people pass
42:26away. So really tough job. So they went
42:28into hospitals and they interviewed
42:30hospital cleaners. And these cleaners
42:33that they interviewed described
42:34themselves in their own words as
42:36lowkilled labor. They clean toilets, bed
42:38sheets, floors, etc. Then they carried
42:41on interviewing them and they found this
42:42other group of cleaners who called
42:44themselves healers and carers.
42:48And they were like, "Wait, what do you
42:49mean? You work the same hours, you get
42:51paid the same amount, you work in the
42:53same hospitals, you do the same exact
42:55jobs, but these cleaners call themselves
42:58cleaners, and these cleaners call
42:59themselves healers." So they asked the
43:01healers, "Why do you call yourselves
43:02that?" They said, "Because we believe
43:05that a clean hospital is integral to the
43:08healing journey of a patient.
43:10>> We believe that if the hospital is
43:12clean, people's family will spend more
43:14time with them in their time of need.
43:16they won't want to rush out of a dirty
43:18place. And actually, if the hospital's
43:20clean, then people feel a sense of
43:22dignity at a really tough time in their
43:25life when they're going to the bathroom
43:26or when they're eating off a plate. And
43:28so, how could we not see ourselves as
43:31part of healing and caring? Now, these
43:33people had more purpose. They felt
43:35happier. They had more meaning. They
43:37were just more positive about the work
43:39they were doing. Going back to your
43:40point of it wasn't the work. So Amy and
43:43her team coined this term called job
43:46crafting,
43:47>> which is this idea that it's not what
43:49you do for work that makes you happy.
43:51It's how you feel about what you do for
43:53work that makes you happy. And for them,
43:55they felt that they were healing people.
43:58>> And and that and I'm like, wow. Like if
44:00you can do that as as a hospital
44:02cleaner, like doing one of the the
44:04hardest job in the States, then we can
44:07all adopt that mindset. Like we can all
44:08be job crafters. And I love that you've
44:11done that in your job as you just
44:12mentioned and I know I've done it in
44:14previous jobs when I was employed. And I
44:16think that mentality was what gave me
44:18confidence and competence and skills
44:20that has now led to a full-time thing
44:22that I'm doing.
44:23>> So cool.
44:24>> Yeah, it's such a cool study. I love it.
44:26>> I was I was so happy when I found it
44:27because I was like, "Wow, I I always
44:29wanted to find a way of showing how
44:30meaning was so powerful and how making
44:32meaning is up to you." And that study
44:34kind of really put it into perspective.
44:36But in that in making meaning in people
44:40finding
44:41work life balance and what whatever that
44:43means to them and falling more in love
44:45with work.
44:47You talked about being a leader and that
44:49being a real lack today. I think one of
44:50the reasons why people don't like work
44:52is bad leaders. And one of the reasons
44:54why people struggle becoming successful
44:56is being a bad leader. And leadership is
44:59your obsession. It's what you do day in
45:01day out. I believe. Is that the work you
45:02would say you chose to love every day?
45:04like that's that's what it was to build
45:06a ship.
45:07>> What is actually the job of a CEO?
45:10>> I think the job of the CEO
45:14is to influence the behavior of
45:17everybody in the company in a way that
45:19is effective for them and the company
45:20when they're not in the room.
45:23>> It's a great definition
45:24>> if I had to like boil it down to what it
45:26is.
45:27>> Yeah.
45:27>> And you know with that, you know, maybe
45:29people vision cash [laughter]
45:31uh cuz you talk to me about this. Yeah.
45:33>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. Okay, when I
45:34think about people, are you taking care
45:36of the people? Do you have the right
45:37people in the business? Do you have the
45:38right people supporting the business? Do
45:39you have the right vendors, partners,
45:41clients? So, it's just all the things
45:43surrounding people. That's the job of
45:44the CEO, the first one in my opinion.
45:46So, that could be product market fit.
45:47That can be uh I say like employee
45:49business fit. Um and that can be
45:51partners that you have. Do you have the
45:53right people supporting this this thing
45:55that you're building? Um vision. Where
45:58are we going? Now, this has become
45:59harder than ever for anybody because of
46:01AI. And I think that that tends to be
46:03difficult for people, but I don't think
46:04that your vision needs to be so uh
46:07detailed in in that way. I think it has
46:08to be like what are we trying to
46:10represent in this world? And for me,
46:12that's okay. I have what I call like um
46:15our our DSS or desired superior state,
46:18which is the quantitative and
46:20qualitative measures that I would like
46:21the company to be at in 3 to 5 years.
46:23And then I always tell people like by
46:24the way could all change because AI can
46:27come faster than we think. And so like
46:29this is just like but it's the ethos of
46:31what we would like to build. I tell
46:32people all the time in acquisition.com I
46:34say listen when in 10 years when people
46:36are talking about the company they build
46:37I want them to say I worked with
46:38acquisition.com. I want people to hear
46:40the word business and think
46:41acquisition.com. Not Alex and Laya. I
46:43say I want them to think
46:43acquisition.com. That's a harder task.
46:45And then when I think about cash I think
46:48about cash is outside of people the most
46:50valuable resource in the business. So
46:52how are we allocating cash? Are we
46:54investing in things that grow the
46:56business? Do we have too many
46:57liabilities on the business? Are we, you
47:00know, what's our return? Like our LTV to
47:01CAC, which is like how much money does
47:03it cost to acquire a customer? And then
47:05do we keep the customer for long enough
47:06that it makes sense for it to cost them
47:08much to even get them in the first
47:09place? Those are all things that the CEO
47:11needs to be thinking about at a macro
47:12level. And so I would say like after the
47:15leadership piece, like those are the
47:16three things that I focus on like on a
47:18daily basis. And I would say like a
47:21underlying piece of that is like you're
47:22kind of chief everything officer which
47:24is like the biggest problems, the
47:25messiest things like they all come to
47:27you.
47:28>> And it's interesting because like you
47:30know me and Alex own the company 50/50.
47:33Um so I'm founder of the company and
47:35CEO. I don't need to be CEO. Like I you
47:38don't have to do both but I really like
47:40the job. Like I genuinely find a ton of
47:42meaning in it and I I love the craft of
47:45it. I love crafting the vision. I love
47:47figuring out how we're going to get
47:48there. I love assembling the right team
47:49and people. Like it really is fun for
47:52me. It's also has a ton of the bad
47:54feelings, but I I find it worth it. Like
47:56I really enjoy that.
47:58>> What was that? DSS.
47:59>> Desired superior state.
48:00>> Desired superior state. I was I was
48:02missing the middle word. I love that.
48:04Yeah. I read I read a book by Sale
48:06Ishmael called Exponential Organizations
48:08in like 2010 and he had something that
48:12he called MTP which is massive
48:14transformational purpose. And so he was
48:16saying that companies like Uber, Google,
48:18they all have an MTP. And so Google's
48:21was organizing the world's information.
48:24>> So we think it's building an ads
48:25machine, but it's to your point, their
48:27vision is organizing the world's
48:29information. And organizing the world's
48:31information can be ads, email, Whimo,
48:34driverless cars, right? Because all
48:36they're doing is organizing data. Maps
48:38is organizing the world's information.
48:40And that's their vision of what they're
48:42building. And I always thought desired
48:44superior state is just such a better way
48:46to think about where are we going
48:48because it allows for like organizing
48:50the world's information is relevant in
48:53100 years and it's relevant 10 years ago
48:55and it's relevant in 3 months. It's
48:58always going to be relevant. It's not
49:00building a search engine which if it was
49:02then AI has replaced that and it's
49:05irrelevant to your business now%.
49:08Yeah. So it's such a I love the desired
49:09superior state. I've never heard that
49:10before and I I like that. I like that
49:12idea. If I love the breakdown of people,
49:15vision, cash is like very specific
49:16things. When was the last time you
49:18looked at a resume?
49:20>> Yesterday.
49:20>> Oh, wow. Okay.
49:21>> Actually this morning.
49:22>> No way. Really?
49:23>> Yeah.
49:24>> Wow. Because you're that embedded in
49:26every single person that comes through.
49:28>> I have plenty of people in place to do
49:30that. But there are certain roles that
49:31work closely with me. Like right now,
49:33we're building out our family office
49:34separate from acquisition.com. And so
49:36looking at the person that's going to
49:37help run that, I'm looking at their
49:38resume. cuz that person's going to be
49:40like a right hand for for myself. Um
49:42because that's a little it's
49:44interesting. It's like once the business
49:45becomes big enough, you have a family
49:47office and a business and it's like a
49:49it's an interesting place to be. But
49:51yeah, so I was looking at the resume. I
49:53I will say this like when it comes to
49:56looking at résumés now, um it's a lot
49:59different than it used to be because
50:00people use AI to write their resume so
50:02often. And so I think the importance of
50:05interviewing is actually more than ever
50:07because people can BS their resumes. Six
50:09ways to Sunday. And lots of people also,
50:12you know, there's little quippy things
50:13people do like they'll be like Harvard
50:15Business. It's like, okay, you got a
50:16certification online. Great. Uh, you
50:17didn't go to Harvard Business School,
50:18which I don't know if I give a
50:20about either of those things, but I
50:21don't like it when people lie or try to
50:22make him look away.
50:23>> Try to make you look away. Yeah.
50:24>> Yeah. That's not fun for me. I'm like,
50:25listen, I went to community college. I'm
50:27not judging over here.
50:28>> [laughter]
50:28>> Um, I will say that when it comes to
50:30looking at um the resumes now, it's more
50:33of the skill of the interviewer. And I
50:36I'll tell you what I found to be like
50:37the skill of the best interviewers is
50:39they do not trust what people say. They
50:41trust what they do. So what does that
50:43mean? People are like, "Hey, one of our
50:46values is be honest.
50:48Can you tell me about a time when you
50:50were honest? Why don't you just ask them
50:52something that would prompt them to
50:53either lie or be honest?"
50:54>> Yes. You know, for example, when I say
50:56um sincere cander, which is one of our
50:58values, and I say people have to be able
51:00to give and receive hard feedback. And
51:02so, one of the things that I do in a
51:04final interview is I look at all the red
51:05flags that my team has given me on a
51:07person, and then I say, great, I'm going
51:09to read them to them. And so, I'm like,
51:11hey, I get on the interview and I'm
51:13like, so this is the number one red flag
51:16that my team has about you. Can you give
51:17me a little insight on that? How they
51:20respond to it tells me if they have the
51:22value of sincere cander? asking them are
51:24you do you have sincere cander
51:26[laughter] is irrelevant but if in the
51:28moment they're like that you know
51:30why would they say that that's totally
51:32de and they start defending and they
51:34start fighting me
51:35>> which 50% of people do
51:36>> interesting then I'm like oh no but then
51:39when they're like wow I really see that
51:40and I am working on that
51:42>> great that's exactly what I'm looking
51:44for the same comes for competitive
51:45greatness people like how do you see
51:46that out I'm like in the negotiation and
51:49they're like what do you mean
51:50competitive greatness by our standard is
51:52people that are looking for the work
51:54because they want to be the most
51:55excellent version of themselves, not
51:57because they want the most money. And
51:59every single person in our company that
52:01embodies that has taken has not gone to,
52:04you know, a crazy, you know, Yale and
52:06Harvard teaching thing or a crazy
52:08consulting job or a CEO job because they
52:10really believe in acquisition.com. And
52:11so usually they take even a pay cut even
52:14though we pay well. And what I've
52:16noticed is that when it comes down to
52:17negotiation, if somebody tells me like,
52:19"No, I'm competitively great. I'm doing
52:20this to be excellent." and they're like,
52:21"Handandy an extra 10 grand." And these
52:23are people that are already being paid
52:24well. This is not like a, you know, this
52:26is well above six figures. I'm like, "Is
52:30are you really competitively great?" And
52:31so then I tell people, I'm like, "No,
52:32don't give it to them." And they're
52:33like, "Why?" And I'm like, "Because
52:34that's not competitive. I don't want
52:35them on the team." It's like, "Don't
52:38tell me. Show me."
52:39>> It's like, that's the biggest thing. You
52:41You don't tell somebody who you are. You
52:42show them. So, what are the observable
52:45behaviors of the person I'm
52:46interviewing?
52:47>> How do they respond to the email? What
52:49do they say when I ask this question?
52:51What are they negotiating through the
52:52process? What do they say matters in the
52:54contract? Like that is how you break
52:56somebody down rather than ask them a
52:58question like this is just BS.
52:59>> Yeah. Yeah. You know,
53:00>> that's so true. I couldn't agree with
53:02you more. I think those questions are so
53:04outdated and it's it's amazing how when
53:06you actually ask a question that's also
53:08a surprise to someone how well they deal
53:10with it as opposed to as opposed to the
53:12example you just gave. I wanted to So
53:14talking of AI and resumes.
53:16>> Oh yeah. So, we created uh two resumes
53:21on AI.
53:23>> And so, we want you to we want I don't
53:24want you to tell me which one you'd hire
53:26because they're for different roles, but
53:27I want you to tell me Well, actually,
53:29they're they're for they they could be
53:31for similar roles. They've done
53:32different things. So, we asked the AI to
53:34build two résumés and I want Leila
53:37Homozi to rate them and give some
53:39feedback on each resume.
53:41>> Can you do that for me? Yeah,
53:42>> you can take your time as well. Here we
53:43go.
53:44>> Here we go.
53:44>> Okay.
53:45>> All right. resume a
53:47>> and it's AI made so they're not real
53:48people.
53:49>> Okay. I'm not going to offend Alexander
53:51Chain.
53:51>> Yeah, exactly.
53:52>> Chen.
53:53>> Okay. Well, starting off, engineering
53:54executive with 12 years leading platform
53:56infrastructure organizations through
53:57high growth and enterprise environments.
53:59Vague language,
54:01>> not detailed at all. So, it's like okay,
54:04it's vague engineering executive. What
54:06What does that even mean? Are you a C
54:08are you a CTO? Are you a leader
54:10engineer? Are you principal engineer?
54:11platform and infrastructure
54:13organizations through high growth and
54:15enterprise. Like, have you noticed that
54:16people put so many words
54:18>> all the time on LinkedIn profiles?
54:20That's all I ever see is just random
54:21words that no one outside your industry
54:23even understands. And especially people
54:25like us who are building outside of
54:26industries or new industries that may
54:28not have existed. It's kind of a bit
54:30like I have no idea what that is.
54:31>> It's very ambiguous. Known for
54:33disciplined execution, architectural
54:35clarity, and building durable systems.
54:36So, this is what I would call corporate
54:38jargon. It just sounds like you think it
54:40sounds cool, but it's unclear.
54:42>> I think the best thing you can do on
54:43your resume is be clear. What were you?
54:45I was an engineering principal at two
54:47startups that went from 30 million to
54:50300 million. I built out their AWS
54:52servers. I built out their That's what I
54:54would be going for.
54:56>> Um, selected impact
54:58>> led 20 engineer platform infrastructure.
55:01So, you're using they use Okay.
55:03Supporting 18 million MAU. What is MAU?
55:06I don't know. Directed multi-year
55:08migration from monolith to modular
55:11services, reducing critical incidents by
55:1341%. Decent. Reduced cloud spend by 23%
55:16through infrastructure consolidation and
55:18performance optimization. Okay. But can
55:19you back it up? Established companywide
55:21architecture review council to
55:23standardize technical. Too much jargon.
55:25Education. Ms. So this one I would say
55:27is short.
55:28>> Mhm.
55:29>> And vague. So it feels like not a lot.
55:31Like I don't know who this person is by
55:32reading this resume. I don't feel I
55:34don't see what they've done in
55:36organization. I think one of the biggest
55:37things when you build out a resume is
55:40the beginning is very clear about who
55:42you are and what you do. Why should you
55:44listen to me is what I think for like a
55:47entrepreneur for a resume it's why
55:49should you keep reading this. That's
55:51what you've got to do in the first. It's
55:52like that's the headline.
55:54>> And so this is a very boring headline
55:56with a lot of jargon so I'm not going to
55:57pay attention. So instead, I need
55:58something that catches somebody's
55:59attention and then I'm going to go into
56:01let me give you the proof. So it's like,
56:03let me catch your attention hook and let
56:05me prove to you why that hook is true.
56:07>> What was the best catch your attention
56:09you ever saw?
56:10>> I actually think the best that I ever
56:11got was I had a candidate instead of
56:15anything. He actually left me like three
56:19emails with voice messages and I was
56:22like, "What the is this voice message?"
56:23And the title of it was like, "I swear
56:26these voice messages are not a scam."
56:28And I was like, "What?" And then because
56:30I I wasn't even paying attention. And
56:32then I, you know, opened up and I
56:33listened to his voicemail. I was like,
56:34"I swear to God this resume is not as
56:36bad as many of the others you're
56:37reading." And it was just like a
56:38hilarious voice memo that he sent in
56:40with his resume.
56:42>> That was the best thing I ever got. It's
56:43like trying a novel way um to do it.
56:46>> I'm sure you have as well. I have a lot
56:48of DMs from videographers or editors
56:50that want to work with us and I love
56:51that. I take it as such a massive
56:53compliment and it means the world. The
56:55reality is we get so many of them that
56:57it's hard for us to really look at them
56:59and we might even be missing amazing
57:01talent sometimes. So I try my best. My
57:03team tries our best but of course you
57:05miss out on some. Now there was one guy
57:08who sent me realels and pictures and he
57:11said I took Juny with me which is mine
57:13and my wife's tea. I took Juny with me
57:15to Hawaii this weekend and I thought I'd
57:17make some content for you guys. and he
57:19sent some pictures of like Juny
57:21underwater and like Juny like being
57:23thrown and it was in Hawaii and it
57:25looked beautiful and I was I sent it to
57:26my team immediately. I was like guys we
57:28need to figure out who this guy is now.
57:30He works with us and he's he's a
57:32contractor with us. He's not full-time
57:33but we bring him in to do certain and
57:35I'm like if he hadn't made those things
57:37that was his way of doing something
57:39novel and it was a cool story. like I
57:40took it to Hawaii and I made all these,
57:43you know, piece of content that really
57:44represented like the flavors and the
57:46trop and it wasn't I'm not saying he
57:48made like 27 things. He made like two
57:50pictures and two realels that were great
57:52and they were short and simple and we
57:54were so it was just so easy for us to
57:56know that he had the skill and the
57:58talent that we wanted and and going back
58:00to your point of being novel, I think it
58:02makes such a difference and and it stood
58:05out immediately.
58:05>> A show don't tell, right?
58:07>> Show don't tell. going back. I mean, I
58:09would say if you're like, "What stands
58:10out?" Cuz we get the same thing. It's
58:11like people who rather than tell me what
58:13they're going to do, they show me. They
58:15make a slide deck. They make a
58:16presentation. They make a Loom video.
58:18They edit content ahead of time. I mean,
58:19we have a guy on our team, his name is
58:20Maddox. Uh he was in high school and he
58:23was making so many clips of Alex. Alex,
58:27uh someone on the team DM'd him and was
58:29like, "Dude, what are you doing?" He's
58:30like, "I'm just doing it for fun."
58:31They're like, "Do you want a job?" And
58:33he was like, "Sure." And now he moved to
58:34Vegas, works in our office. Maddox is
58:37like one of the youngest ones. We can't
58:38go to anywhere that can't do 21 up
58:39because of Maddox. But [laughter]
58:42>> that's awesome. That's
58:43>> He showed us. We were like, "Oh, he has
58:44the ability." He was clipping six clips
58:46a day.
58:46>> Wow.
58:47>> I was like, "Great. Do that for us."
58:48>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I love that. All
58:49right. Next one. All right. Next one.
58:51>> Take a look [snorts] if it's any better.
58:53>> Jordan Patel, engineering leader with 11
58:55years regular partner CEO during
58:57Honestly, this looks very similar.
59:00>> I think that the difficulty is one, is
59:03this actually what AI does for resumes?
59:05And that's so sad.
59:06>> Literally, it's really bad. It's really
59:08bad.
59:09>> I think what it does is because it
59:10doesn't have detail, it fills in with
59:12filler language and then it makes things
59:14>> that's what humans do too, funnily
59:15enough, right? Like that's
59:16>> we get a lot of that. Like I feel like a
59:19lot of LinkedIn profiles, a lot of stuff
59:21I read, it's to what your point that
59:22you're saying that show don't tell. I
59:24feel like a lot of what we get is
59:26telling.
59:26>> Yeah.
59:27>> Yeah. What would be your feedback? What
59:28would be your take? Cuz you also
59:29mentioned earlier that AI a lot of
59:32people are using AI anyway. I think
59:33there's a couple things which is like
59:35you want to tell your story. That's what
59:36a resume is. People want to be able to
59:37read it and know the story of who you
59:39are and what you've done for your work.
59:40And so when I say the first piece is a
59:43hook, it's like even when I'm posting
59:44for a job, I'm starting with why I even
59:47do this. I have this business, why does
59:48it exist? What are our values? Resumes
59:51should start the same way. Like why do I
59:53do this for work? Why am I interested in
59:56engineering? Why am I interested in uh
59:58operations? And then what are my values
1:00:00and what do I abide by? And then here's
1:00:02a um essentially like my story, right?
1:00:05Which is all the proof. And so you just
1:00:07think like, okay, let me go through my
1:00:08story from most recent to least recent.
1:00:10Let me tell them everything I've done
1:00:11and accomplished. And you talk about the
1:00:13the things that you have been able to
1:00:15accomplish rather than the skills that
1:00:17you say that you have. If you've
1:00:19accomplished those things, then by
1:00:21proxy, you obviously have the skill. And
1:00:23what are we looking for in résumés?
1:00:25We're looking to know that the person
1:00:27has the skill to do the job. If you say
1:00:30you have the skill, that's one thing.
1:00:31But if you show it by increased this
1:00:33from 8% to 12%. You know, decreased um
1:00:36CAC by 20% by instituting a campaign for
1:00:40many chat on the Instagram.
1:00:42>> I think that how is so important too.
1:00:44>> Correct. Because you cannot BS it.
1:00:45>> Yeah. Cuz I see so many people say grew
1:00:47a channel from 2 million to 200 million.
1:00:50I'm like but tell me how.
1:00:51>> Oh, I've got because 100 people online
1:00:53who have done that for me. Right.
1:00:54>> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Ex. That's what I
1:00:55mean. Right. And it's because it's like
1:00:57how did you do that? like like you just
1:00:58said like many chat or I understood
1:01:01YouTube from this and thumbnail strategy
1:01:03like I want to know the strategy too
1:01:04because that's the thing I'm believing
1:01:06because I know how to do that but I need
1:01:08to know that you know but by telling me
1:01:10how you did it what was the strategy
1:01:11what was the method or the approach
1:01:13>> a thousand%. So I think it's like you
1:01:15think of it like there's a hook there's
1:01:16the proof which is telling them the how
1:01:18so it's like okay they're not BSing me
1:01:19and then I actually think that every
1:01:21resume needs a CTA
1:01:22>> which is like this is what I would do
1:01:24for you if you hire me. Yeah,
1:01:26>> these are the first things I would do.
1:01:27Or some people will be like, I will do X
1:01:29and Y for free through the interview
1:01:31process if you've already read this
1:01:32resume. That actually has really gotten
1:01:34my attention because somebody then
1:01:35saying at the end like here's what I
1:01:38they're not waiting for you to tell them
1:01:39what to do. They're saying, "Hey, if you
1:01:41give me the green light, I will do this
1:01:43immediately and then you can actually
1:01:44see my work."
1:01:44>> Yeah.
1:01:45>> They're offering up some sort of free
1:01:46work sample, some sort of, you know, um
1:01:49like something for free to show you as
1:01:52the CTA. That's very good.
1:01:54>> I love that because it already shows you
1:01:56they're a selfarter and it already shows
1:01:58you that this is not someone I'm going
1:02:00to have to micromanage and this is not
1:02:02someone I'm going to have to handhold
1:02:03and tell them what to do every step of
1:02:04the way. This person's actually going to
1:02:06come in and maybe even have an influence
1:02:07on the company which is what you want is
1:02:09someone influential.
1:02:10>> A thousand% and and I think most people
1:02:14nowadays at least are just like letting
1:02:15AI write everything for them and they're
1:02:17not thinking what does this person
1:02:19really want to know from my resume? They
1:02:20just want to know that you actually have
1:02:21the skill to do the job. What's the best
1:02:23way to to show them you have the skill?
1:02:24To show, not to tell.
1:02:25>> Yeah.
1:02:26>> How can you show through paper?
1:02:27>> And that CTA point is huge. I just want
1:02:29to say that I've never heard that
1:02:30before. And also, I think we think about
1:02:33résumés too much as a bio sheet. Like
1:02:36it's just like a date of fact like just
1:02:39backtoback where I've worked. And you
1:02:41just said it's a story of who you are.
1:02:43It's an introduction to who you are.
1:02:44It's proof of who you are. It's a CTA of
1:02:46what you're willing to do. that is
1:02:48completely changing the way we view a
1:02:50resume and you're so right that if any
1:02:51leader saw a resume like that it would
1:02:53stand out instantly because and you're
1:02:56not getting rums like that. No, it's
1:02:57just not happening.
1:02:58>> They're not. And I also think nowadays
1:03:00with social media like they're going to
1:03:01take your resume and they'll they can
1:03:03verify your places of work etc with all
1:03:05sorts of things like there's no hiding
1:03:06anymore.
1:03:07>> What do you believe is the most
1:03:08overrated leadership trait? One of the
1:03:11more overrated skills is I would say
1:03:14like when people say, "Oh, he's really
1:03:15motivating."
1:03:17>> And it would probably be like loud,
1:03:19maybe like boisterous, charming. Some of
1:03:22the best leaders that I have in my
1:03:24organizations are the quietest people.
1:03:27>> And it's because I think that the best
1:03:29leaders don't need to take the credit.
1:03:31They're they're giving the credit
1:03:33constantly and they're actually taking
1:03:34the blame. I've seen time and time
1:03:36again, people who are the loudest get
1:03:38the most attention. Maybe people like to
1:03:39watch them do something. I'll put them
1:03:41in a leadership position and then they
1:03:43fail. And it's not because of the fact
1:03:45that they're loud, but it's because
1:03:46typically people are loud are people who
1:03:48want attention themselves rather than
1:03:50want to pay attention to others.
1:03:52>> And I've just seen that time and time
1:03:54again. Like I have two leaders I can
1:03:56think of in my company who are so quiet,
1:04:00but when I walk into their team
1:04:01meetings, they are such amazing leaders.
1:04:03They're praising people, building them
1:04:05up, investing in their team, having hard
1:04:08conversations, and they don't need the
1:04:09credit. They just want truly to do right
1:04:12by the people on their team, and that's
1:04:14all they care about. Like, they will
1:04:15live and die by that. You know, we see
1:04:17anomalies of people who are, "Oh yeah,
1:04:19like this. I'm such a great leader."
1:04:22Well, I mean, even for me, like I'll
1:04:23just tell you like Alex says all the
1:04:25time, he's like, "Dude, like your
1:04:27biggest issue is you don't take credit."
1:04:28Like, he's like, "Tell people what
1:04:29you've built." Like, I tell people and
1:04:31they believe me more than you because
1:04:32you won't like take it all. I'm like,
1:04:33well, because we did it together. Like,
1:04:35we did it. I didn't do it. And it's like
1:04:37goes against my leadership instinct. And
1:04:39I really believe that the best leaders
1:04:42that I know, which I know have built
1:04:43multi-billion dollars companies, etc.,
1:04:46they all say the same thing. Like, I
1:04:47know it's so hard. Like, when you go out
1:04:49in the public and you're doing PR,
1:04:50you're doing this and you've got to be
1:04:51like, I built this thing. They're like,
1:04:52it feels awful. I'm like, I know. And I
1:04:55think that that's how most great leaders
1:04:57are. Now, I think you can have a boss,
1:04:58but I think that's very different than a
1:05:00leader. Because if you have a great, you
1:05:01know, if you have a boss, then that's
1:05:03somebody who maybe has the title and the
1:05:05authority, but when they're not there,
1:05:08people don't act in a way that helps the
1:05:09company or themselves. And so, I
1:05:11wouldn't say that they're a leader.
1:05:12>> Yeah. Should a leader aim to be loved,
1:05:16respected, or feared?
1:05:18>> I think that whether you want to be
1:05:20those things or not, you will be all of
1:05:22them. Unfortunately, a lot of how a
1:05:24leader is seen is through the past
1:05:26experiences of people that work with
1:05:28them. I would say that I am loved,
1:05:29respected, and feared by people in my
1:05:31company. I think that the difficulty is
1:05:33this. If you want to be respected and
1:05:35even loved, you will also be feared
1:05:37because you have power. And anybody
1:05:39who's in a leadership position, the
1:05:42reason why people fear somebody in a
1:05:43leadership position is because they have
1:05:45power. What is power? It means that they
1:05:47can change something in your life. So
1:05:49now you fear them because you fear what
1:05:51if I do something that makes them angry?
1:05:52What if I even if you see that they're
1:05:54the nicest person? There's always the
1:05:56what if. What if the bear, you know, the
1:05:58the tiger that has been so nice that
1:06:00I've been petting, what if it turns on
1:06:01me, right? And so anybody that's in a
1:06:04place of power will always be feared
1:06:06because people always wonder what if
1:06:07they use it to do something bad to me
1:06:09and I do not have power to change their
1:06:10life, but they have power to change
1:06:12mine.
1:06:12>> Yeah.
1:06:12>> So I think that's a default.
1:06:14Unfortunately, it's going to come with
1:06:15anybody. I think that's why leaders need
1:06:16to overindex on praise etc. I would say
1:06:20that the way that I see respect and like
1:06:22getting respect from somebody means that
1:06:25I see respect as letting something
1:06:26maintain its state. Meaning they try to
1:06:30not interrupt your day as much as
1:06:32possible, not throw you off, not deter
1:06:35the path, also not mess up anything in
1:06:37the company. Like when I think about
1:06:38respect, I think about like I'm going to
1:06:39let you be you. I'm not going to
1:06:41interfere too much. Uh when I think of
1:06:43loved, I think of people would sacrifice
1:06:47a lot for you. How much are they willing
1:06:48to sacrifice for you? And so when I
1:06:50think about great leader, I think that
1:06:52they are respected and loved in the best
1:06:54situations, which is the people on your
1:06:56team want to let you maintain as you
1:06:58are. They're not trying to change you.
1:06:59They're not trying to interfere with
1:07:00your day. They're not trying to, you
1:07:01know, I would say like interfere with
1:07:02anything that's going on. And at the
1:07:04same time, they would sacrifice a lot to
1:07:07keep you as their leader. I think you
1:07:09want both of those things in ideal
1:07:11situation. I think that the difficulty,
1:07:12Jay, is that most people don't know how
1:07:14to do both. M
1:07:15>> it is so much easier to yell at people
1:07:17than it is to learn how to get people to
1:07:20respect you and like you and also do
1:07:22what you need them to do. [laughter]
1:07:23That is so much harder. It's like why is
1:07:25it that people at, you know, a fast food
1:07:27restaurant are yelling at people?
1:07:28Because it's so much easier. You don't
1:07:29have to teach somebody to yell at people
1:07:31and they're going to be feared because
1:07:33they're going to be scared and do what
1:07:34they say because that person has power
1:07:36whether they're a leader or not.
1:07:37>> I remember early in my career, I always
1:07:39coming from my monk background and how
1:07:41we were trained in empathetic leadership
1:07:43and servant leadership. There was such
1:07:44an energy of me wanting to love the team
1:07:49and obviously when I was starting out I
1:07:50had a very new team. Everyone hadn't had
1:07:52a job before. People were this was their
1:07:55first job because that's all we could
1:07:56afford as well.
1:07:57>> Yeah.
1:07:57>> And I found it so fascinating that
1:08:00people didn't know how to receive love
1:08:01because probably before then they'd only
1:08:03ever been controlled by fear.
1:08:05>> So whether it was at school, whether it
1:08:07was their parents, whatever it may have
1:08:08been, it was fear was the language. And
1:08:11then it was almost like love was just
1:08:12going over their head. And I remember
1:08:14reading uh Daniel Coyle's culture code.
1:08:17I don't know if you've read that book.
1:08:18It's a really good book. And he talks
1:08:19about in the first chapter, he talks
1:08:21about how like the core leadership trait
1:08:23you need is not love or control, it's
1:08:26safety. And he's like, if people feel
1:08:28safe, they'll perform better. And I was
1:08:30like, oh, that's that's like that blew
1:08:32my mind. I was just like because to me
1:08:34also, I was like, I'm an innovative
1:08:35leader. I've always felt when you
1:08:36challenge people and when you are
1:08:38pushing for greater things. And he was
1:08:40like, "No, people just don't feel safe
1:08:42and they can't receive love or they
1:08:44can't respect you or they can't or
1:08:46they'll fear you because they don't feel
1:08:48safe, but the other two have to be
1:08:49there." And I was like, "Wow, safety is
1:08:51something I never even thought about
1:08:53because I've always considered I'm safe.
1:08:54I feel safe in the I feel safe in the
1:08:57chaos. I feel safe in the discomfort. As
1:08:59an entrepreneur, you get used to that."
1:09:01And then I was like, "Oh, no, but
1:09:02everyone here works with me because they
1:09:03want to feel safe. If they loved being
1:09:05unsafe, they'd be an entrepreneur.
1:09:07That's what they would do." And so it's
1:09:09just such a fascinating thing. And I
1:09:10love what you're saying about how you
1:09:12inevitably will become all three. And so
1:09:15you can't hang your hat on and say, "I
1:09:17just want to be loved. I just want to be
1:09:19respected." Hopefully, you don't just
1:09:20want to be feared. Naturally, you'll
1:09:22become all three. But you just said
1:09:24knowing how to balance them is the
1:09:25hardest bit. What have you developed?
1:09:27What are the skills and tools you've
1:09:29developed in order to allow for that
1:09:32safety in and amongst all of these
1:09:33three?
1:09:34>> Yeah. I think the first is like finding
1:09:36yourself on like there's the scale of,
1:09:39you know, when you think about uh
1:09:40there's like carrots and sticks, right?
1:09:42And everyone tends to lean to one or the
1:09:44other. Either you're all carrots or
1:09:46you're all sticks. And that typically
1:09:47means you have a weakness on the other
1:09:49side. So for me, for example, like I was
1:09:51all carrots. I would praise people. I
1:09:53would acknowledge people. I would like
1:09:55pour into somebody and just believe in
1:09:57them and hope for the best. I'd be like,
1:09:59they're going to do amazing. And I
1:10:00always saw the best in people. And that
1:10:02meant that some of this other side of
1:10:03like having the hard conversations,
1:10:04challenging people, pushing them to
1:10:06grow, etc. It was weak 12, 13 years ago.
1:10:09The first place is asking yourself, are
1:10:10you carrots? Are you sticks? Where do
1:10:12you tend to lean? And it's like, okay,
1:10:14great. Then I need to work on the other
1:10:15side. I need to work on the thing I'm
1:10:17bad at, right? And so then I said, okay,
1:10:19I've got to work on this one. I've got
1:10:21to work on using this skill because I've
1:10:23got this skill down. I don't have this
1:10:25skill down. And so I think that's the
1:10:27first place that we have to start when
1:10:28it comes to I would say like learning
1:10:30that skill. I think about it in terms of
1:10:33reinforcement which is just like getting
1:10:36something you know what happens after an
1:10:37event. And so a lot of times what I
1:10:40would do is that anytime something
1:10:41happened it's like I do I praise them. I
1:10:43say it's okay. I reassure. I do
1:10:45something positive. But then I realized
1:10:46there were cases in which people didn't
1:10:48abide by the culture. Maybe they were
1:10:50mean to somebody on the team. Maybe they
1:10:52did something unethical. That requires a
1:10:54different skill. That's okay. I need to
1:10:56make something less desirable for them
1:10:57to do again. Okay. Well, what does that
1:10:59look like to show that? And so, you I
1:11:02have found ways to do that that feel
1:11:04right and ethical to me, but also
1:11:06reinforce the entire picture, which is
1:11:08either end that you're coming from. It's
1:11:10not about the one person that you're
1:11:12talking to in the moment. It's about the
1:11:13team. And so, do I need to use more
1:11:16carrots or sticks? I don't know what's
1:11:18best for the whole team. I think about
1:11:19like this. I tell all my leaders,
1:11:21everything that you do is seen through a
1:11:23microscope and heard through a
1:11:24megaphone. So assume that every
1:11:26conversation you have will get put on
1:11:28blast because it will. Everyone will
1:11:29tell everybody. And so how do you want
1:11:32the team to feel after this conversation
1:11:34that you have that is in private
1:11:36>> but that you're having? What do you want
1:11:38them to say about what you did? What's
1:11:40going to reinforce the culture we're
1:11:41building here? And then people are like,
1:11:44"Oh, that's a really interesting way to
1:11:45frame it." I'm like, "Right." So we have
1:11:47to think in the frame of the team. Like
1:11:49I see it as like the job of the leader
1:11:51is you're the coach. If you were
1:11:52thinking of a basketball, I always think
1:11:54of John Wooden, right? I'm thinking like
1:11:55you're coaching the team. You have to
1:11:57keep the culture, which means like there
1:11:58have to be some sticks. There also have
1:11:59to be carrots. I think it's the ratio
1:12:01that you have to pay attention to and
1:12:03also knowing your natural proclivity
1:12:05matched with the players natural
1:12:07proclivity. Some people are going to
1:12:08test you all the time and they are not
1:12:11really phased by you kind of like
1:12:13fighting back. It just doesn't phase
1:12:14them, right? They're just that's the
1:12:15culture they come from. There's other
1:12:17people who if you even look at them
1:12:19sideways, they've already punished
1:12:21themselves seven times this Sunday. So
1:12:23there's nothing you could say that hurts
1:12:24more than what they've done to hurt
1:12:25themselves. And you just you kind of
1:12:27have to just be there for them and allow
1:12:28them to just tell you what they did
1:12:30wrong. And so I think there's when
1:12:33you're a leader, I really think that one
1:12:35of the most underrated skills is being a
1:12:37chameleon. It sounds crazy and some
1:12:39people say that sounds manipulative. I
1:12:41don't think it's manipulative if you're
1:12:42trying to help people achieve their
1:12:43goals at the same time. Mhm. And so I am
1:12:46a completely different leader to my CFO,
1:12:48to my president, to my COO than I am to
1:12:52uh my creative producer, my director of
1:12:54brand, my director of sales, uh my
1:12:57customer service rep. I do not act the
1:12:58same to any of those people. When I walk
1:13:00into the sales room, what do you think
1:13:01I'm going to be leading with? Well, it's
1:13:02it's usually like 25 to 30-year-old guys
1:13:04who are all rah rah all day. I'm like,
1:13:06"What's up, guys? What's going on? Like,
1:13:08let's get it."
1:13:09>> Then when I walk into, you know, the the
1:13:11media room, I'm like, "Hey." I'm like,
1:13:12"Love that clip. It was so good. Let's
1:13:14look at this. Let's look at You have to
1:13:16be able to be flexible. And so I think
1:13:17it's knowing what side you come from and
1:13:19then working on that other skill so that
1:13:21you have tools for any situation that
1:13:23you come into.
1:13:24>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It's being
1:13:26able to speak other people's language,
1:13:28not expecting them to speak yours. Like
1:13:29the idea of if I'm going to I always
1:13:31said that, you know, when you grow up in
1:13:33England, you go to Europe so much and
1:13:35you always hope that everyone speaks
1:13:37English. And it's so ignorant to do that
1:13:40because if you could go to France and
1:13:41speak French and if you could go to
1:13:42Italy and speak Italian and go to Spain
1:13:44and speak Spanish, like you'll have so
1:13:46much more impact as opposed to just
1:13:48going there and hoping everyone speaks
1:13:49English. And it I feel like leadership's
1:13:51always like that where you're going to
1:13:53someone else and speaking English and
1:13:54hoping they know. And it's like, well,
1:13:56no, that person responds to the rahrh
1:13:58motivational speech and that person is
1:14:01the softer touch. And like you said, the
1:14:03example of your great leaders who are
1:14:04really quiet. They require a different
1:14:06sense of importance and significance.
1:14:09And I think that's what's also been
1:14:10fantastic to understand as well is how
1:14:13do you reward people and how do you give
1:14:17feedback to people? Like I feel those
1:14:19two things are so unique. Like some
1:14:21people want to be rewarded in public,
1:14:23some people want to be rewarded in
1:14:25private. Some people want it at the big
1:14:27company event. And some people just want
1:14:28to be told every day like, "You're doing
1:14:30great. Like keep going." And I feel like
1:14:32that chameleon approach is so important
1:14:35to figure out. I don't think it's
1:14:36manipulative manipulative at all.
1:14:38Actually, I think it's a really good
1:14:39point. How have you learned how to give
1:14:41feedback without losing someone's faith,
1:14:44loyalty, and connection to the mission?
1:14:47>> It's actually really easy once I
1:14:48understood it, which is you're not
1:14:51giving them feedback about themselves.
1:14:52You're giving them feedback of how to
1:14:54achieve their goal. If you don't know
1:14:55someone's goal, you cannot give them
1:14:57effective feedback because feedback is
1:15:00essentially the discrepancy between
1:15:02where they are and where they need to
1:15:04be, want to be. Which one? Well, I would
1:15:07say it's kind of both, which is, for
1:15:10example, when somebody first comes in,
1:15:11I'm like, what is your ultimate goal?
1:15:13Why do you want to work here? I need to
1:15:14know because I need to know what you
1:15:16want to get out of this job. and then
1:15:17say, you know, I have a a person at the
1:15:19sea level who said, "One day I want to
1:15:20be able to be a I want you to deploy me
1:15:22to be CEO of one of the operating
1:15:24companies." I said, "Okay, great." So,
1:15:26every time I see something, my brain is
1:15:29going, "Is he acting like a CEO of an
1:15:30operating company?" And if he's not,
1:15:32what is the gap? And the gap is the
1:15:34feedback. And so, every conversation I
1:15:36start with somebody when I have to give
1:15:37them feedback. I'm like, "Hey, I start
1:15:40with the goal. I don't start with them."
1:15:42You want to be CEO of an operating
1:15:43company one day, right? They're like,
1:15:44"Yeah." I'm like, "Okay, cool." in
1:15:45service of that goal. Here's some
1:15:47feedback I have about that conversation.
1:15:49If you were the CEO of the operating
1:15:51company, you would say it like this
1:15:52rather than how you set it. So, two
1:15:55things anchor to the goal. You start
1:15:57with that. You have to frame everything
1:15:58that matter. It's kind of like when
1:15:59you're with your spouse. It's like we
1:16:01want to be married forever, right? In
1:16:03fact, I've done this to Alex many times.
1:16:04I'm like, "We want to be married for
1:16:05life, right? You still want that?" He's
1:16:07like, "Yeah." I'm like, "Okay, cool. If
1:16:08we want to be married for life, I would
1:16:10love if you did this instead." And
1:16:12that's the second part, which is I'm not
1:16:13going to punish them for what they did
1:16:15poorly. I'm not going to say you did
1:16:16this so shitty. I can't believe you
1:16:18didn't get me this for Valentine's Day.
1:16:20You didn't, you know, I can't believe on
1:16:21that meeting you said that to your team
1:16:22it sounded so stupid. I'm not going to
1:16:24focus on the past. I'm going to reorient
1:16:27them to what they need to do better next
1:16:29time. Do this instead. It's a complete
1:16:32skill in its own to even think, do this
1:16:34instead. I teach peers to get feedback
1:16:36this way, too. They're like, "Well, I
1:16:37didn't like what they done that
1:16:38meeting." I said, "What should they have
1:16:38done instead?" They're like, "Well, I'm
1:16:39not their boss." I'm like, "Shut the
1:16:40up. you can tell them what they
1:16:42could have done instead. It's actually
1:16:43very powerful to get it from peers. And
1:16:45so it's I'm going to anchor to the goal
1:16:48and then tell them what to do instead.
1:16:50So for example, in that situation when
1:16:52we had this meeting and I was watching
1:16:53this person was aspiring to be a CEO, he
1:16:55gave feedback to somebody in a way that
1:16:57was very timid and it was not clear. And
1:17:00so I said, "Hey, in service of that goal
1:17:03of wanting to be a CEO, here's how I
1:17:04want you to give the feedback next time.
1:17:06Say this." And I give them a script. So
1:17:09often people are like they just don't
1:17:12have the skill to give the feedback or
1:17:14they don't have the skill to have that
1:17:15conversation or they don't have the
1:17:16skill. No, they don't have a script.
1:17:17It's not a skill, it's a script. You
1:17:19just don't know the words to say.
1:17:20Someone just needs to give you the words
1:17:21to say it sometime. And so um when I'm
1:17:24giving feedback, it feels very easy
1:17:27because I'm on the same side of the
1:17:28table. I'm trying to get them to the
1:17:30goal that they shared with me. It's
1:17:31actually very similar to sales. Sales
1:17:33has been incredibly helpful in learning
1:17:34leadership, which is you told me the
1:17:36goal. My job is to get you to that goal.
1:17:38Okay? I'm telling you that we're not on
1:17:40the path right now. So, I'm also going
1:17:41to tell you what the path does look like
1:17:43and then you just need to walk it.
1:17:44That's it. And it makes it really easy.
1:17:47>> That's the best feedback advice I've
1:17:48ever heard. I'm going to use that all
1:17:49the time now. Really?
1:17:50>> Yeah. No one's ever said that before.
1:17:51I've I've never heard that. I've had so
1:17:53many different ones that I've liked, but
1:17:54that is without a doubt the clearest one
1:17:57because I love the idea of making
1:17:59feedback not about the person and not
1:18:02about their performance in that way, but
1:18:04in reference to where they want to be
1:18:07because then it becomes obvious that
1:18:09they should do it. It's not it's not
1:18:11about them as a human or not that it
1:18:13ever was. But I think so much feedback
1:18:15just sounds like you could do this
1:18:17better and you if you did this then you
1:18:19could do this and it's almost like well
1:18:20no if we just start at you want to be
1:18:23here this is the role you want to have
1:18:25these are the skills required to be in
1:18:27that role and we we're here to invest in
1:18:29you and help you get there and we want
1:18:31to be a part of that journey but this is
1:18:33the change we want to see and I love the
1:18:34focus on the change of behavior the
1:18:37change of focus not stop doing this
1:18:39start doing this is is such a brilliant
1:18:42way of switching the conversation
1:18:43because to stop doing this or you did
1:18:45this last year is so demoralizing and
1:18:48depressing to hear.
1:18:49>> Well, it's I always ask people this. Do
1:18:51you want them to feel bad or do you want
1:18:53them to get better?
1:18:54>> Yeah.
1:18:54>> And I will ask people that and they'll
1:18:55be like, I actually kind of want them to
1:18:56feel bad. I'm like, great. Then you're
1:18:57not ready to give them feedback because
1:18:59if you want to make someone feel bad,
1:19:01talk about what they did wrong over and
1:19:02over and over again. If you want someone
1:19:04to get better, tell them what they can
1:19:06do differently next time to be more
1:19:08effective. Mhm.
1:19:09>> I always ask myself even when I'm really
1:19:10upset with someone, I'm like, "Do I want
1:19:11them to get better or do I want them to
1:19:13feel bad?" And I'm like, "A little bit
1:19:14of both right now." And I'm like, "All
1:19:15right, wait until you just want them to
1:19:17get better and give them the feedback in
1:19:18that service." And I think a lot of
1:19:20people, the reason that when they give
1:19:21feedback, it feels so poor to people and
1:19:23people don't like to receive feedback is
1:19:24because most people don't know the
1:19:25difference between critiquing somebody
1:19:26and insulting somebody. An insult is
1:19:28when you associate with somebody with
1:19:30something negative versus a critique is
1:19:32telling them the gap between where they
1:19:34are and where the ideal is. And so an
1:19:36example I like using is I by the way I'm
1:19:38a fan. I'm friends with some of the
1:19:38girls but selling sunset when uh you
1:19:41know Mary is um giving feedback uh to uh
1:19:45oh my gosh Christine and she's like you
1:19:47just I need you to just she goes stop
1:19:49being a You literally just told
1:19:51her what not to do. Anchor her into the
1:19:53past. You told her to stop being a
1:19:55A negative association. And then
1:19:57they wonder why Christine is upset about
1:19:59this. And I'm like well you didn't tell
1:20:00her. She goes well what was I actually
1:20:02doing? I remember the conversation. I
1:20:03was like oh my god this is it. She's
1:20:04like, "What was I actually doing?" And
1:20:05she's like, "You were just being a
1:20:07Just stop acting like a bitch."
1:20:08That's all. And she just stopped acting
1:20:09like a Okay. And then it's like,
1:20:11it wasn't specific. It didn't talk about
1:20:13Christine's goal. And it associate with
1:20:14her with something negative, which the
1:20:16moment that we associate someone someone
1:20:18with something negative and we insult
1:20:20them. The immediate interaction with a
1:20:22human is I'm going to fight you.
1:20:23>> And so now you've just set it up for a
1:20:25battle. And so it's like, who wants to
1:20:26deal with that?
1:20:27>> Whereas a critique is, hey, you said
1:20:28this, say this instead next time.
1:20:30>> That's it. Um, but it takes a lot more
1:20:33thought to critique somebody than it
1:20:35does to insult somebody. I can just tell
1:20:37you, hey, you remind me of my last
1:20:38ex-boyfriend that cheated on me. Hey,
1:20:41you really sound like your dad right
1:20:42now. It's like those are all very
1:20:44digging insults. Nobody's going to
1:20:46change their behavior based on that.
1:20:47They're just going to dislike you.
1:20:49>> So true. Talking about selling sunset
1:20:50and women in business. What something
1:20:53that women have been told they have to
1:20:55do in leadership, that's completely
1:20:57wrong. I don't know if they've been told
1:20:58this or shown this that you need to be
1:21:01this very independent, hyperindependent,
1:21:04hyper responsible person and it almost
1:21:07creates this illusion of what a real
1:21:09leader is because I think going back to
1:21:10the first part of our conversation, a
1:21:12real leader isn't doing it alone. And I
1:21:15think that in order to be great and to
1:21:16do great things, you have to depend on
1:21:18other people. I think the biggest lie
1:21:20that women are fed right now is that
1:21:21they need to do it all themselves. In
1:21:24order to be a great leader, I actually
1:21:25think you must depend on others to do
1:21:26other things for you so that you can do
1:21:28only the the very most important things
1:21:30that you can do as a leader. And I see a
1:21:33lot of women, I'll be honest, like a lot
1:21:34of women come to me and they are like
1:21:37they have nothing left to give. They
1:21:39have no time. They're exhausted. Their
1:21:42bodies are fighting against them.
1:21:43They're having health issues. And I see
1:21:47it. It's coming from this place of
1:21:48wanting to be hyperindependent for the
1:21:50sake of wanting other women to like
1:21:52them, you know, and I I talk about it.
1:21:55I'm like, listen, I get it because for
1:21:56the longest time it was really hard
1:21:58because, you know, I'm married to Alex.
1:21:59We're business partners and it's like a
1:22:00constant, you know, in the beginning. I
1:22:03was like, how do I but I was like, I
1:22:04will never disregard my value or what I
1:22:09want in my marriage to create an image
1:22:12publicly. And so people are like, "Oh,
1:22:15well, you know, you must, you know, do
1:22:17everything or wear the pants." It starts
1:22:18going in that direction actually now.
1:22:19And I'm like, "No, I depend on him for
1:22:22plenty of He depends on me for
1:22:23plenty of stuff. Why is that bad? Why is
1:22:25it bad I depend on him? I depend on my
1:22:27other partners. I depend on my my staff.
1:22:30I depend on my friends. I depend on my
1:22:32family. Why is that a bad thing? And why
1:22:34do I feel like right now it feels like
1:22:37in culture it's like women have to be
1:22:40able to do everything at the same time.
1:22:42otherwise they are not bad ass boss
1:22:45and I don't know how to do
1:22:47everything on my own let alone at the
1:22:49same time and I don't even have children
1:22:50yet so god I don't know um but it feels
1:22:54like this very this facade because I'm
1:22:57privileged to know a lot of the women
1:22:58and I wouldn't want their life the ones
1:23:00that try to look that way and try to be
1:23:02that hyperindependent I wouldn't want it
1:23:04it's lonely and it's exhausting and at
1:23:06times I think miserable because you know
1:23:08I've had seasons where maybe I've felt
1:23:11like I need to start and I feel myself
1:23:13going into it and I also feel myself
1:23:14becoming miserable when I I go in that
1:23:16direction.
1:23:17>> And I think for a lot of women, the
1:23:19biggest piece of advice I would give
1:23:20them is you don't need to be
1:23:23hyperindependent
1:23:24to accomplish your dreams. And if that's
1:23:27the cost, do you even want the dream?
1:23:30Because who wants to get to the end and
1:23:31have nobody to celebrate with?
1:23:33>> Not me. Cuz like winning,
1:23:36it's at the same time people always want
1:23:38these things. That's often why they, you
1:23:40know, we do things cuz we want to
1:23:40accomplish something. At the same time,
1:23:42I always think I pick my goals because
1:23:44of the process, not the goal. And so, if
1:23:47you don't enjoy the process, what is the
1:23:49point? And I wouldn't say enjoy. I said
1:23:51maybe find joy in the process. It's not
1:23:53going to be enjoyable the whole time. I
1:23:54don't even know how to put words to it,
1:23:56but I I do see that as like the number
1:23:57one issue I feel like with women right
1:23:59now is
1:24:00>> it's like in fear of looking soft, we
1:24:03become hyperindependent. And in becoming
1:24:05hyperindependent,
1:24:07we create the misery we're trying to
1:24:09avoid. And that's all pressure that's
1:24:10been put on women.
1:24:11>> Yeah.
1:24:12>> As well to have to
1:24:13>> women putting it on women.
1:24:14>> Oh, women putting it on women.
1:24:15>> What men want women to be hyper
1:24:17independent.
1:24:18>> I don't know a man that wants a woman to
1:24:19be hyper independent. Then what use does
1:24:20a man have?
1:24:21>> Yeah. It's coming from within.
1:24:23>> I I think women and from women wanting
1:24:25to prove something. It's almost been
1:24:27like a rebound effect.
1:24:29>> I think that there is a a common ground.
1:24:31I think that you can be soft and be
1:24:34hard. I think that you can be kind and
1:24:37be fierce. I think that you can be
1:24:39really smart and really beautiful. Like
1:24:41I do not think that you have to be
1:24:43either one of these things and I think
1:24:44that you can be very independent and
1:24:46also choose to depend on people not
1:24:48because you're incapable but because you
1:24:50choose to.
1:24:51>> It's so interesting hearing about that
1:24:53because yeah, it's you're you're spot
1:24:55on. You're absolutely right about
1:24:57just that false pressure and and and
1:24:59that pressure is on everyone like that
1:25:01pressure of showing like we talked about
1:25:02as an entrepreneur even that I really
1:25:04don't like that title of self-made.
1:25:07>> Yeah. because it's just like it
1:25:09proclaims this idea that like I'm going
1:25:11to do it all on my own and that's what
1:25:14that person did. And we've been talking
1:25:16this today. It feels like that's been
1:25:17like the trend of our conversation or
1:25:19the underlining of our conversation
1:25:21which is whether it's your friends,
1:25:22whether it's your partner for you,
1:25:24whether it's the leaders in your
1:25:26company, the organization, there's so
1:25:28many people who are embedded in your
1:25:31journey of success. And it's unhealthy
1:25:34to try and do it yourself or even make
1:25:36it look like you're trying to do it all
1:25:37yourself.
1:25:38>> It's crazy.
1:25:39>> And why? I I just think it's not cool.
1:25:43[laughter]
1:25:44>> Yeah. No, for sure. Tell me what little
1:25:47I Le Ila thought her life was going to
1:25:49look like. So if we rewindound back to
1:25:5316, 18, like what did you think life was
1:25:57going to look like from that vantage
1:25:59point? I thought like like actually I
1:26:01thought my life was going to look like.
1:26:02I thought that I would
1:26:05be successful. I thought that I would
1:26:07get into business. I never pictured it
1:26:09would be as big of a business as it is.
1:26:12I thought that I probably wouldn't get
1:26:13married until I was like 30ome. I
1:26:16thought that I would
1:26:19be probably doing something more. Um,
1:26:22when I thought about like what business
1:26:24I was going to start, it was fitness.
1:26:25So, I thought I'd be like totally in the
1:26:27fitness industry completely. Um,
1:26:30so I had an idea of a vision for myself
1:26:34that was not it's not like that hasn't
1:26:37been accomplished, but it was so much
1:26:39smaller than the vision I have now. And
1:26:42I think, you know, it's funny cuz like
1:26:44people used to be like, "What's the
1:26:46vision you have for yourself?" And like
1:26:47I always felt like wrong for not having
1:26:50this enormous one, but I realize now I'm
1:26:53like my brain just needed evidence that
1:26:55it was even possible to get to the first
1:26:56step. And I actually think it's worked
1:26:57really well for me because with every
1:27:00vision that I set for myself or for my
1:27:02companies, I'm not thinking, oh my god,
1:27:06what is the absolute biggest version of
1:27:07what this looks like? I'm thinking like
1:27:09what is a very like a challenge, but
1:27:11something that I think is doable, though
1:27:13very hard.
1:27:15And so even for myself, that's been
1:27:17really helpful for me because I'm I'm
1:27:21naturally a more
1:27:24insecure person. And I also set goals
1:27:29primarily because of who I want to
1:27:31become, not because of what the outcome
1:27:33is. And so for me it was like if I could
1:27:35become that person that could build a
1:27:36business that could make a couple
1:27:38hundred,000 a year and I could really
1:27:40like be helping people and bettering
1:27:41their lives like that would be awesome
1:27:45for me. Like I remember saying like if I
1:27:46could just help you know 20 people, 10
1:27:49people and like really impact their
1:27:50lives like I would feel really good. And
1:27:54it's so much more than that which is
1:27:55kind of crazy to think about but I think
1:27:57at each level I mean you probably
1:27:59experienced this. It's like you take one
1:28:01step and now all of a sudden the sky is
1:28:02clearer and each step you take up the
1:28:04sky is clearer and clearer and clearer.
1:28:07And I don't know if that's a deficit on
1:28:08my part or just how it works, but it's
1:28:12helped me because I think looking back
1:28:14and I think about the vision I had for
1:28:15myself. I'm like, "Wow, if only you had
1:28:17known." Like, I always hoped to be built
1:28:20for
1:28:22something bigger, but I I think it's
1:28:24like a mental trick of mine that I
1:28:25undersshoot because I don't want to beat
1:28:28myself up if I I don't accomplish it. I
1:28:31have flaws.
1:28:33>> What What are you still insecure about
1:28:34today?
1:28:35>> Plenty of things. Um I [snorts] think
1:28:38that I feel like, you know, I think
1:28:40sometimes when I look at myself, my
1:28:42perception of myself, like my brand, I'm
1:28:43like, I feel like I'm a little weird.
1:28:45like doesn't make sense. Like I'm like I
1:28:47don't know if I make sense sometimes and
1:28:49I think I'm a little quirky. I talk
1:28:51weird sometimes. Sometimes I'm not as
1:28:52articulate as I want to be. I would say
1:28:55I make a lot of weird faces. [laughter]
1:28:57I've been like I I think insecure about
1:28:59these things. Um I think I've been Okay,
1:29:02I'll tell you something. I'm actually
1:29:03insecure about over this last year. I've
1:29:04changed my mind about a lot of things
1:29:06over the last year. And that's been
1:29:07something that at first I was really
1:29:08insecure about because I felt like do
1:29:12people now think that I was lying or
1:29:15playing them? But it's like no, I've
1:29:17just changed as a person. But it was
1:29:19really hard for me at first. I was like,
1:29:20I don't really know how to talk about
1:29:21this. You know, I think when I first
1:29:23started making content, I was insecure
1:29:25about a lot of things. I was insecure
1:29:27cuz like everybody would comment be
1:29:28like, "You're just married to Alex." And
1:29:29I was like, "Oh my god." I think we look
1:29:31at these things that we're insecure
1:29:32about and we're like, "God, I wish I was
1:29:33insecure about that." I'm like, I don't
1:29:35cuz I never want stuff to get to my head
1:29:36and not forget that I am flawed human.
1:29:39And I actually deeply appreciate that
1:29:42for that and for the fact that I wanted
1:29:46to get over, you know, feeling badly
1:29:48when people would say those things. And
1:29:49so I I had a challenge for myself is
1:29:50that for a year I just read everything.
1:29:54I read every comment someone left in
1:29:56relation and I did nothing. I didn't
1:29:58respond. I didn't tell anybody. I didn't
1:30:00let it ruin my day. I didn't comment
1:30:01back. I did nothing because I said I
1:30:03want to expose myself to the stressor
1:30:06and teach myself it's okay. And I kept
1:30:09making content. I said I'm not going to
1:30:10stop no matter what. And at some point
1:30:12it kind of turned and then people would
1:30:13saying more nice things than bad things.
1:30:16But it's made me very humble. Um like
1:30:19I've kept a lot of humility which I mean
1:30:21I would hope I would have anyways but I
1:30:23think things sometimes life helps us
1:30:24out. And the second thing is that it
1:30:26really taught me
1:30:28how to do things when people are
1:30:30constantly judging you. And then now I
1:30:32say I'm like, "Dude, I don't even care
1:30:33what happens anymore." Like, there's
1:30:34nothing that could feel more
1:30:35demoralizing than some of the comments I
1:30:37had in the videos that were made about
1:30:38me in the beginning.
1:30:40There's I don't I really I was like, I'm
1:30:42trying to think about it. I even ch I
1:30:44was like, there's nothing I don't think
1:30:45there's anything that could now test me
1:30:47to that degree. And I'm so grateful for
1:30:49that because I'm so proud of myself cuz
1:30:50I'm genuinely unbothered now.
1:30:53>> I think what it taught me is the price
1:30:55of greatness is being misunderstood.
1:30:57You are going to be so misunderstood.
1:30:59And if you spend time trying to get the
1:31:02critics to understand you, you're never
1:31:04going to achieve their greatness because
1:31:05they're going to be distracting you.
1:31:06It's like you're on this path and it's
1:31:08like they're constantly trying to pull
1:31:09you off and distract you. And I'm like,
1:31:10no, I built so much of that muscle. I
1:31:13don't care what they say. Another video
1:31:14can go viral with a million views about
1:31:16my voice and it's like I don't even
1:31:17care. People like, don't you want to
1:31:18comment on it and tell? Nope. Don't
1:31:20care. Genuinely don't care. And I've I
1:31:24feel so happy with myself for doing it
1:31:26because that is such a hard place to get
1:31:27to when it comes to criticism. And I
1:31:29think yeah, that was something that I
1:31:31was insecure about for a long time. And
1:31:32now I feel like like I would have never
1:31:34brought that up on a podcast and be
1:31:35like, "God, now they're going to Google
1:31:36it. Go ahead." You know, it's like it
1:31:39makes me me and I am weird and flawed
1:31:41and unique and that's okay. I appreciate
1:31:43you being so honest and vulnerable
1:31:45because I think it just shows that
1:31:46someone who's so successful and and a
1:31:50huge public figure has not had it easy
1:31:52to get there. And I think often people
1:31:54do the opposite. They say people are
1:31:56only there because of their looks or
1:31:58only there because of this or only there
1:31:59because of that. And I think it's
1:32:02fascinating because then when other
1:32:04people do and they also make it, then we
1:32:05say, "Oh, no, but you can't do it with
1:32:07that looks or whatever that may be." And
1:32:09it's just a it's just they're all
1:32:11excuses. They're they're all excuses
1:32:13because the reality is that the reason
1:32:15why people are listening to you and
1:32:16taking your advice is because it works
1:32:17and people are feeling value from it.
1:32:18And I felt listening to you today. I
1:32:20picked up so many great insights that
1:32:22I'm going to use tomorrow in my company.
1:32:25And I'm like that's huge. Like that's
1:32:27the real impact. And um and all the
1:32:30other stuff is like stuff we don't
1:32:31control and don't, you know, aren't in
1:32:33charge of. I I had polyp in my throat
1:32:35years ago and lost my voice. And when my
1:32:37voice came back, it was really squeaky
1:32:39and soft and like really like a bit not
1:32:42high. I wouldn't say high pitched, but
1:32:43it was soft. And then it slowly got back
1:32:46to where it is now. And I just remember
1:32:48when I first spoke it, I was like, "Oh
1:32:49my god." Like it was a scary it was a
1:32:51scary feeling cuz I was writing on a
1:32:53chalk. I was writing on a small
1:32:55whiteboard for what I wanted for lunch
1:32:57and dinner to my family. Like it was I
1:32:59lost my voice fully. And so I'm like
1:33:01having a voice is like such a blessing.
1:33:03And like the fact that we can go around
1:33:06making fun of people for that in 2026 is
1:33:08ridiculous. Like I just I find it crazy
1:33:10that we're still living in a world that
1:33:12on one end of the spectrum cares about
1:33:14mental health and how people feel and
1:33:15tells people to be more mindful and then
1:33:17makes fun of like ridiculous physical
1:33:19appearance or whatever it may be. And
1:33:21>> I think people feel like they can put
1:33:23people down who have a what looks like a
1:33:24good life.
1:33:25>> It feels like it's justified. At least
1:33:27something I've noticed.
1:33:29>> And it didn't start that way. Like it it
1:33:32>> I always joke I'm like mac and cheese on
1:33:34the inside. Still like still mac and
1:33:36cheese a little trash on the inside.
1:33:38[laughter] Like it hasn't gone away.
1:33:39Like I don't know. There's only so much
1:33:41you can do. Um
1:33:42>> I understand cuz like there's a lot of
1:33:44people who see people with money and
1:33:46power and status and they they think
1:33:48they're just trying to do evil and
1:33:49they're this and that. It's like I I
1:33:52think maybe 15 years ago I would think
1:33:54that about some people and then it takes
1:33:56you a while to realize like for me it's
1:33:58like I have more of that than I could
1:34:01have ever imagined. And
1:34:03I am literally the same person
1:34:06>> just amplified. Like I think I have more
1:34:08ability to show my empathy to show my
1:34:11strengths. I also my weaknesses are also
1:34:13amplified. It's like it just amplified
1:34:15everything but it didn't change
1:34:17anything. At least not for me. you
1:34:19believe you can be successful and still
1:34:20have deep values and be a good person. I
1:34:24will tell you this like there are so
1:34:25many deals, businesses, partnerships
1:34:27that have come my way that have been so
1:34:29like you know multi-figure
1:34:32opportunities and I just I have not I'm
1:34:34no I am so happy to say no to because
1:34:37they don't align with my values and like
1:34:39I think the reason why I can do a lot of
1:34:42the things that I do and be willing to
1:34:44accept a lot of these negative feelings
1:34:45and things that happen in life and
1:34:47uncertainty and hold this space for
1:34:48people is because I look at it like I I
1:34:51think about this every day. I have a
1:34:53board of directors. It's like I don't
1:34:54actually have board of directors, but
1:34:55for me, my board of directors are my
1:34:57values. And my values are what I orient
1:35:00everything I do by. It's like as long as
1:35:02I'm acting in accordance with my values,
1:35:05no matter how it feels, I find a sense
1:35:08of joy in the process because I am who I
1:35:12say I want to be. Mhm.
1:35:14>> And I think at the end of the day, it's
1:35:15like if you can accept the shitty parts
1:35:18of life, but then still orient yourself
1:35:20towards a valuesdriven life, that's all
1:35:23that matters. Like money and everything,
1:35:24like listen, people used to tell me
1:35:27money won't make you happy. And I was
1:35:29like, I'm going find out. Okay.
1:35:30[laughter]
1:35:31And then, you know, I got there. I'm
1:35:32like, yeah, it really doesn't make you
1:35:33happy at all. In fact, sometimes it can
1:35:35make you more unhappy. You have more
1:35:36problems and more people don't like you,
1:35:38which, you know, I'm privileged to say
1:35:39that. But still, it's just interesting
1:35:41how how it works. I think the only thing
1:35:42I think about now is just every single
1:35:44day, how do I live by my values? It is
1:35:46what it is, you know. Um I think I'll
1:35:48give you an example of that. So we had I
1:35:50don't know if you remember the Texas
1:35:51freeze.
1:35:52>> Mhm.
1:35:53>> Yeah. So there was the Texas freeze and
1:35:55they emailed everybody in our
1:35:56neighborhood and we had a we live in a
1:35:57really nice neighborhood in Texas at
1:35:59this point and they said, "Hey, like if
1:36:00everyone could turn their heat to 50,
1:36:02then we can get everyone through this
1:36:04freeze and we have a lot of kids in the
1:36:06neighborhood." And I was like, "Oh my
1:36:07god." So I turned the heat down to 50.
1:36:09Alex is like, "I'm freezing.
1:36:10What are you doing?" He's like,
1:36:12"Seriously?" And I was like, "Yeah,
1:36:13dude. We've got to turn down. Like,
1:36:14there's kids and we have the neighbor
1:36:15just had a baby and like all this
1:36:16stuff." 6 hours later, they're like,
1:36:18"Hey, we ran out of heat, so everyone's
1:36:21going to feel it soon." I was like, "How
1:36:22did that happen?" I was like, "We turned
1:36:23it down to 50. Everyone turned down to
1:36:2550." So, I'm in a text thread with like
1:36:27six other neighbors. And I text them.
1:36:28I'm like, "I don't even understand. We
1:36:29all They said, "Oh, we turned it up."
1:36:32And I said, "What?" They like, "I turned
1:36:34my house to 85, to 90 to that." I said,
1:36:36"What? Why?" And they said, "Well, I'm
1:36:39not about to, you know, it's once we did
1:36:41lose the heat, I didn't want my house to
1:36:42be super cold." And I just sat there. I
1:36:45remember Alex is like, "Oh my god, Ila,
1:36:47I can't believe you're the only one that
1:36:48turned it down." I said, "Honestly, I
1:36:50don't care
1:36:51>> because the fact that I couldn't I can't
1:36:53be that person that's like, "Yeah, let
1:36:55the children be cold." No, I'm going to
1:36:57sacrifice my comfort for them because
1:36:58that's part of my values. I have the
1:37:00value of being in service of others. So,
1:37:02it's like everything I do is going to
1:37:03orient to that. And if that means I have
1:37:05to suffer more, then so be it.
1:37:06>> I I feel the same way. I mean, I grew up
1:37:07in a home where we didn't we always had
1:37:08just enough and that's how we got by.
1:37:11And if we ever went to someone who did
1:37:14well, it was always like my extended
1:37:16family would always use the language of,
1:37:17oh, they make dodgy money or, you know,
1:37:20it's a bit shady what they do. Whenever
1:37:22we went to someone's nice house, and we
1:37:23had a small house, but whenever we went
1:37:25to a nice house to a friend or family or
1:37:27or wedding or whatever it was,
1:37:29>> it would always be like there was
1:37:30something wrong about what they were
1:37:31doing that they had money. And I think I
1:37:33grew up for a long time feeling the same
1:37:35way. And it was only when I had to
1:37:36rewire my entire relationship with money
1:37:39to recognize, you know, at one point I
1:37:42remember having like 200 million views
1:37:44and being 4 months away from being
1:37:46broke.
1:37:46>> Wow.
1:37:47>> And I was like, wait a minute, this
1:37:48makes no sense. Like I'm having all this
1:37:50impact and people are saying I'm
1:37:51changing their life, but like I'm living
1:37:52in scarcity and I don't really
1:37:54understand
1:37:56why I'm still that in that way. And it
1:37:58was all because my belief was you had to
1:38:00be broke to do good. And I had to really
1:38:03look at that because I was like, "Wait a
1:38:04minute. I'm gonna give up doing what I
1:38:06love that helps people and impacts
1:38:08people because of this value that I have
1:38:10that isn't true that I've adopted
1:38:12somewhere."
1:38:13>> And now being sorry,
1:38:16>> an association.
1:38:17>> Yeah. An association. And now being on
1:38:18the other side and being like, "Oh,
1:38:20well, actually, I've realized the value
1:38:21in being able to have more to do more
1:38:24good." And and that was my that's what
1:38:26became the value. And I started to
1:38:28realize that yeah, like people who have
1:38:30more can can have the opportunity to do
1:38:32lots. And my parents had amazing values.
1:38:34They didn't have a lot and they still
1:38:35did a lot. And so that came that value
1:38:37came through as well of like you can do
1:38:39a lot with a little but if you could
1:38:41have more then how much more could you
1:38:42do? But it's it's a fascinating paradigm
1:38:44that we have to work against because I
1:38:46think it's also the it's also the
1:38:47mindset that keeps you stuck
1:38:49>> like the mindset that oh because we're
1:38:51scared of our own success and our own
1:38:52potential because we're scared we might
1:38:54change.
1:38:55>> Yeah, that's a tough one. I think
1:38:57through um do you remember Spider-Man?
1:38:59>> Yeah.
1:39:00>> You remember the moment where he's like,
1:39:01"Peter, with great response power comes
1:39:03great responsibility." I think about
1:39:05that when I think about money. It's like
1:39:06it's just like with great power comes
1:39:08great responsibility. And I think about
1:39:09that a lot for myself. At the same time,
1:39:12when I first started doing, you know,
1:39:14just getting into business, I mean, I
1:39:15had the same belief, which was like,
1:39:17>> uh, I just want to help people and if I
1:39:19just want to help people, then like the
1:39:20money will come. Well, not really.
1:39:22>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Exactly.
1:39:23>> I know lots of very well-intended people
1:39:24that
1:39:25>> totally I believe that too. don't
1:39:26understand how to make money. And so
1:39:27until I learned how to sell and how to
1:39:29market,
1:39:30>> didn't matter how much desire I had. I
1:39:32didn't have a system.
1:39:34>> Like creating money is building a system
1:39:36that generates money. It's it's a form
1:39:38of discipline. It's a skill. You know, I
1:39:40see it the same way because I think I I
1:39:42remember I read the book Rich Dad Poor
1:39:44Dad and that like changed everything.
1:39:45Was like, "Oh my god, my dad was a poor
1:39:46dad. Love you, Dad." But you were. And
1:39:48uh I was like, "Wow, I've just had this
1:39:50negative association with money. I need
1:39:52to build positive ones. So if I do my
1:39:55money
1:39:57and I did it
1:40:00>> I love how compliment
1:40:04and it shows why you're such a great
1:40:05team. So, anyone who's been listening to
1:40:07this episode, make sure you go listen to
1:40:09Alex. And anyone who's listened to Alex,
1:40:11make sure you come listen to this one
1:40:12because it's this perfect balance
1:40:13between like Alex kind of came in and
1:40:15talked about all the like marketing
1:40:17systems and the funnels and the the
1:40:19sales and you know, like the breakdown
1:40:20and you're here talking about everything
1:40:21from values to the belief system to
1:40:23managing people and thinking about what
1:40:25businesses and how they're building and
1:40:27where they're going and how to find the
1:40:28right teams. And you, it shows why
1:40:30you're such a great partnership because
1:40:32it takes all of those things to run,
1:40:34like you said at the beginning of this,
1:40:36not to run a business for the next 5 to
1:40:3810 years, but a business that lasts 30
1:40:40years.
1:40:40>> It needs this. And for a business to be
1:40:43successful, it needs what he was talking
1:40:44about. And I'm sure you share some of
1:40:46those skills as well. But, uh, you can
1:40:48tell how complimentary they are. So,
1:40:50>> we are completely obsessed with
1:40:52completely different things in business.
1:40:53And it works well.
1:40:54>> It It shows and it's awesome. Leila, we
1:40:57end every episode of On Purpose with a
1:40:58final five. These questions have to be
1:41:00answered in one sentence maximum.
1:41:02However, sometimes I break my own rules.
1:41:04[laughter] Uh so, uh question number
1:41:06one, what is the best business advice
1:41:08you've ever heard or received? The only
1:41:10skill that matters is leadership. Your
1:41:12business starts out small, you can do
1:41:14everything. As your business gets
1:41:16bigger, you have to start doing less and
1:41:18less of things. As your business gets
1:41:20really big, if you want to be good at
1:41:23something, you have to be completely
1:41:25allin, diabolically good at that thing.
1:41:28At some point, it doesn't make sense for
1:41:29the founder of the company to be good at
1:41:32any one skill in the company
1:41:34>> because the skill outgrows them because
1:41:36of the volume and the size of the
1:41:37company. And so, where do you get the
1:41:40most leverage? You get the most leverage
1:41:42understanding leadership because
1:41:44leadership influences all the people
1:41:46that have all the skills. Mhm.
1:41:47>> How do people act when you're not in the
1:41:49room? If they act in a way that's in
1:41:50accordance with their goals and the
1:41:51company goals, then you're an effective
1:41:53leader. And that means that you can
1:41:55multiply all the efforts of everybody
1:41:57else in the company rather than doing
1:41:59the effort yourself.
1:42:01>> Time again, I will find myself maybe
1:42:03fixating on something in the business
1:42:04and then I'm like, what am I doing?
1:42:06>> This is not where I get the most
1:42:07leverage on my time or my skill anymore.
1:42:10>> And so, at some point, that is the only
1:42:12thing that matters and is the only place
1:42:14you're going to get the most leverage.
1:42:15You cannot at some point out sell, out
1:42:18customer service, out finance, out legal
1:42:20leadership.
1:42:22>> Question number two, what is the worst
1:42:24business advice you've ever heard or
1:42:26received?
1:42:27>> Do what you love. I think instead of do
1:42:31what you love, a lot of people, one, I
1:42:34don't think they actually know what they
1:42:35love. Two, think that they love things
1:42:37they're not skilled at. Um, and three, I
1:42:40think it's taken out context. I think if
1:42:44you want in in my opinion better advice,
1:42:47do stuff you like with people you like
1:42:49in an environment you like and if you do
1:42:51that and you engineer the business to do
1:42:53those three things, then you will
1:42:54probably be able to stay in the game
1:42:56long enough to have a really successful
1:42:58big business. But just doing what you
1:43:00love, I'm not sure that that is a
1:43:03complete picture of what the best advice
1:43:05is. Cuz if I just did what I love, well,
1:43:07I also love baking and I love fitness
1:43:10and I love talking about mindset and I
1:43:12love all these things. Sometimes the
1:43:15hard thing is that when you build a
1:43:16business, you think, I'm going to do
1:43:18what I love. But when people think that,
1:43:20they think, okay, well, you love to
1:43:21bake, so I'm going to get into I'm going
1:43:23to open a bakery. Well, eventually
1:43:24you're not going to be baking at all.
1:43:25You're just running a company that bakes
1:43:27as a product.
1:43:28>> And so, do you love running a business
1:43:30or do you love baking? Very different
1:43:31things.
1:43:32>> Very different things. And so I think
1:43:33that when it comes to business, that's
1:43:35very poor advice because even if you
1:43:37start off doing something you love,
1:43:38baking the pies, you do not end there.
1:43:40>> Totally.
1:43:41>> And that is why I think a lot of people
1:43:43end up miserable because they're a baker
1:43:45of the pie. They're not a constructor of
1:43:47the business.
1:43:48>> Yeah, great advice. I was thinking like
1:43:49my my first love is football, soccer.
1:43:51Like I love football. Like anyone who
1:43:52knows me knows. I was like I've never
1:43:54thought about first of all I could never
1:43:55be a football player. I was never good
1:43:56enough. So that wasn't if that worked I
1:43:58would have that's what I'd be doing. But
1:44:00it's like that that was never going to
1:44:02happen. And I don't want I love it as
1:44:04and I love it as it is. I almost don't
1:44:06want to be like everyone's like oh would
1:44:08you ever wanted to be a coach or like
1:44:09and I've worked with athletes coaching
1:44:11them on mindset which I love because
1:44:13it's it's my business. It's my work and
1:44:15it is my passion too. I do love it but
1:44:18if you think about like what I love
1:44:19growing up it was sport but that's not
1:44:22what I've ended up doing and I'm happy
1:44:23about that. Like yeah it's sometimes
1:44:25better to leave it be that passion.
1:44:28>> I agree. Um, okay. I've got this
1:44:31little case.
1:44:33>> What is that?
1:44:34>> Okay. So, if I had a million dollars to
1:44:39invest in your business,
1:44:41what are the top three pieces of advice
1:44:43you have for pitching for money?
1:44:46>> First thing I would say is that you've
1:44:47got to show them the meat on the bone.
1:44:48>> Mhm.
1:44:49>> Nobody wants a bone that's been chewed
1:44:51to bits that looks like a piece of
1:44:52and there's no meat left on it. So, the
1:44:54first thing that you've got to show
1:44:55people is where's the meat left on the
1:44:57bone?
1:44:58So, for an example, when we were selling
1:45:00gym launch, we said, you know, we've
1:45:02tapped this piece of the market. We have
1:45:04small uh, you know, small group class
1:45:07gyms, we haven't tapped big box gyms,
1:45:10yoga studios, Pilates studios, CrossFit
1:45:12even, we haven't tapped any of that. And
1:45:14so then we said, what's the size of
1:45:15that? How much meat is left on the bone
1:45:17there?
1:45:17>> Mhm.
1:45:18>> That's the first thing is that nobody
1:45:20wants to buy a business that has run out
1:45:21of opportunity.
1:45:22>> Yes. And a lot of people unfortunately
1:45:25come to investors too late when they
1:45:26have run out of opportunity. Right?
1:45:28That's the first piece is like where
1:45:29where do you have opportunity meet on
1:45:30the bone. The second piece is when
1:45:33you're pitching somebody to invest in
1:45:35your business. I would say that you are
1:45:38selling them on the team rather than
1:45:42yourself. I think that when people look
1:45:43at investing in a business, specifically
1:45:45myself, it's like great if it's an
1:45:47amazing founder, but you're one person
1:45:49and if you die, get hit by a car,
1:45:51anything happens, then like who's behind
1:45:52you?
1:45:53>> And so I'm like, I want to know that the
1:45:55team has got this business, not just the
1:45:58founder. And so you're going to have
1:46:00your team on the calls, have your team
1:46:01in the pitches, have your team be able
1:46:03to do the pitch. I mean, I did that when
1:46:05I was selling my company. It's like they
1:46:06were literally there pitching the
1:46:07company cuz I was like you you think
1:46:08that I run this business and I'm in the
1:46:10day-to-day watch the people who actually
1:46:12are like they'll pitch the company for
1:46:13me. It's like what's a bigger move than
1:46:16Um so that's the second piece. Um and
1:46:18then the third piece probably specific
1:46:21to me. Um but I think it is the way in
1:46:27which you go about the negotiation
1:46:30that tells me more about the founder and
1:46:31about the company than anything. And so
1:46:33if I were trying to if I were an
1:46:35entrepreneur trying to get someone to
1:46:36invest a million dollars in me, I would
1:46:38demonstrate through the negotiation
1:46:39process of trying to get the money the
1:46:42type of person I was. Because at the end
1:46:44of the day, you pick the jockey, not the
1:46:47horse.
1:46:48>> A great entrepreneur can turn a shitty
1:46:51company into a great company, and a
1:46:53shitty entrepreneur can turn an amazing
1:46:55company into a piece of
1:46:57>> And so it's really about them and how
1:46:59they show up during the process. Are you
1:47:00early to calls or are you late? Do you
1:47:03show up well? Are you prepared? Are you
1:47:04calling in with like I have people that
1:47:06they would call in, they'd be like,
1:47:07"Sorry, I'm on the road right now." It's
1:47:09like I'm immediately like, "Okay, so you
1:47:10don't even have enough time to sit down,
1:47:11take this call is how seriously you
1:47:12don't take our investment." Um, it's how
1:47:15they treat you.
1:47:16>> And I think that that says a lot about
1:47:18somebody, how they're going to treat
1:47:19somebody that they're trying to get
1:47:20money from. I would assume that they
1:47:22treat you better than anybody because
1:47:24they're trying to have you give them
1:47:25money. But if they don't, imagine how
1:47:27they treat their team. Imagine how they
1:47:29treat their employees, their clients.
1:47:31Not well.
1:47:32>> Yeah. Question number four. What's the
1:47:37one thing for each of these stages?
1:47:38What's the one thing a company needs to
1:47:40focus on to get to 100K in revenue, to
1:47:43get to a million, their first 100K in
1:47:44revenue, their first million in revenue,
1:47:46and their first 10 million in revenue?
1:47:48What's the difference in what they need
1:47:49to be focused on? So to get to your
1:47:51first 100K, you need to sell one thing
1:47:53to one person through one channel, one.
1:47:57Like so many people, they're just
1:47:59scatterrained. And they're like, I've
1:48:01got, you know, I've got this type of
1:48:02client, I've got this, I'm working with
1:48:03hairdressers, and then and you know,
1:48:05coaches and fitness and I'm like, no,
1:48:06no, no. One avatar, one channel, one
1:48:10sales process. That's it. You keep you
1:48:12have to keep everything super simple to
1:48:13get to 100K. Um, now in order to get to
1:48:16a million, it's actually not a lot
1:48:18different than that. It's you have one
1:48:21channel, one avatar, uh, one way that
1:48:24you're selling, one product. Um, but
1:48:27then you have to learn to be consistent
1:48:29>> because to get to 100K, you can have a
1:48:31good week and a bad week and then you
1:48:33can try for a week and then turn your
1:48:34marketing off and then you can post
1:48:35content one day and not the next day and
1:48:37you can get to 100K being really
1:48:38inconsistent. To get to a million, you
1:48:40have to have some element of consistency
1:48:42in place, which is are you able to do
1:48:44the same things? Can you take 20 sales
1:48:47calls a week? Every week, not three
1:48:49weeks, but four weeks a month.
1:48:51Consistency is the like it's basically
1:48:53the amplifier on there to get to a
1:48:55million.
1:48:56>> And then to get to 10 million, you have
1:48:59to then get other people to be
1:49:01consistent for you.
1:49:02>> And so
1:49:03>> that's great. Love that.
1:49:05>> Right. It's how do I get other people to
1:49:07do those consistent actions so that I
1:49:09can and then what you're going to go do
1:49:11is build the next probably product tier
1:49:13which is typically when you get to 10
1:49:15million what you realize is that you're
1:49:16like oh my gosh I actually have I think
1:49:18I need a different product for these
1:49:19customers. I have a lot of pro I have a
1:49:21lot of customers I'm selling into this
1:49:22thing but they're not all happy. Why is
1:49:24that? Well because you actually have you
1:49:26need a different product for this
1:49:27different type of customer. in order for
1:49:29you to build that, you can't still do
1:49:30this other stuff that you've been doing
1:49:32to consistently be at the, you know,
1:49:33million or seven figure mark. And so,
1:49:35you have to get other people to be
1:49:36consistent here so that you can go build
1:49:38this back end here and then probably
1:49:40branch out to your next channel, etc.
1:49:42>> That's the way that I see getting from 0
1:49:44to 10.
1:49:45>> Love that. Uh, I'm going to add a 4B
1:49:47because you're giving such great advice.
1:49:49I have to ask you one more question
1:49:50before we get to five because five is
1:49:52always the same for everyone. So my
1:49:54second question is to that regard is uh
1:49:57if someone's in their 20s, what are the
1:49:59top three skills they should be building
1:50:02right now? No matter their job, no
1:50:04matter what industry, what are the top
1:50:05three skills you'd say they should
1:50:07invest in?
1:50:08>> Patience. Patience. Patience.
1:50:11>> Okay.
1:50:11>> It is like the rarest thing that I see
1:50:13nowadays for people in their 20s. And I
1:50:15will tell you this, I have
1:50:1830, 50, yeah, in their 20s. Gosh, maybe
1:50:2375 people on my team in their 20s. And
1:50:26the number one trait of all of them that
1:50:29succeed is patience.
1:50:30>> Wow.
1:50:30>> They are able to do the boring work, to
1:50:33focus on something, to not be distracted
1:50:35by shiny object syndrome, to not be
1:50:37distracted by what their friend is doing
1:50:38to make a quick buck online, and it pays
1:50:41freaking dividends. I mean, we have a a
1:50:43director of sales. His name's Jacob.
1:50:45Shout out to Jacob. Um, and we've known
1:50:47him since he was 16. M
1:50:49>> and you know he's about to be 23.
1:50:50>> Wow.
1:50:51>> He's our director of sales for
1:50:52acquisition.com. He runs one of the
1:50:54largest teams we have. He's 23. What
1:50:57does he have that other people don't
1:50:58have? And I tell them this all the time.
1:50:59I use this example. He has patience.
1:51:01When he came to us and we said we need
1:51:03you to just be an STR. This is our first
1:51:04company. He was we he came to
1:51:06acquisition.com. We said just call the
1:51:08phones. He never said when do I move up.
1:51:11He never said when do I do this next?
1:51:13Nothing. He just got ruthlessly good at
1:51:14the skill in front of him. And he did
1:51:16that so much and he focused so much and
1:51:18he was so patient, not trying to get to
1:51:20the next level that he got so much
1:51:22better so much faster. The irony of it
1:51:25is that when you're distracted with
1:51:27trying to move up so quickly or trying
1:51:28to get this next skill so quickly, you
1:51:31don't actually acquire the level of
1:51:33expertise in the skill you're focused on
1:51:35to get to the next level.
1:51:36>> And I see it with all of them.
1:51:38>> Yeah.
1:51:38>> It is the number one reason they are not
1:51:40succeeding is they are not patient. And
1:51:42I will say as somebody who's like a
1:51:43freaking advocate for patience, I have a
1:51:46lot of it. It is why I crushed my 20s. I
1:51:49mean, I hate they're like, "What would
1:51:50you say? If you were in your 20s, you
1:51:52would do different." I was like, "I
1:51:53crushed my 20s." [laughter] I really
1:51:54feel proud about what I did. And I was
1:51:57very patient. I was never trying to get
1:52:00to the next level. I was just trying to
1:52:01get really good at where I was at. I
1:52:03mean, I read God 12 books on how to run
1:52:06a meeting because I'm like, I just need
1:52:08to nail this. And I think that patience
1:52:11encompasses a lot of different skills
1:52:12within it. I think focus. I think the
1:52:15ability to tolerate boredom. I think um
1:52:18the ability to tolerate distractions.
1:52:20And if you can acquire those skills in
1:52:22your 20s,
1:52:23>> dude, I'm like he's I told him I was
1:52:25like, I'm going to be working for you
1:52:26when I'm 45. Okay.
1:52:28>> I love it. Uh fifth and final question.
1:52:30We ask this to every guest who's ever
1:52:32been on the show. If you could create
1:52:34one law that everyone in the world had
1:52:36to follow, what would it be? Leave
1:52:38everyone and everything better than you
1:52:39found.
1:52:41>> Yeah, it's a great rule.
1:52:43>> Yeah, well said, Leela. Thank you so
1:52:46much. This was uh I learned so much,
1:52:48gained so much. I know my audience is
1:52:50going to get so much value out of this
1:52:51conversation. I hope you'll keep coming
1:52:52back. Feel like there's so much more we
1:52:54could unpack together and uh so grateful
1:52:57to have you here today. Thank you so
1:52:58much for making the effort to travel all
1:53:00the way and be here with me.
1:53:01>> Oh yeah, it was awesome. Thank you, Joe.
1:53:03>> Yeah, thank you. If this is the year
1:53:04you're finally ready to start that
1:53:06business, level up your goals, or build
1:53:08real momentum in your life, you need to
1:53:11hear my conversation with Alex Hormosi.
1:53:13>> I have um a very simple framework that I
1:53:15encourage people who are starting out to
1:53:17follow, which I call closer. So C stands
1:53:19for clarify, which you begin the
1:53:20conversation like, "Hey, why'd you
1:53:22respond to my

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