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"Mieliśmy potwierdzić gotową wersję". Dlaczego zablokowano ekshumacje w Jedwabnem? Małgorzata Grupa — Transcript

by Cyprian Majcher · 14,432 words · 2,246 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:01Can you sign your name to the statement
0:03that the perpetrators of the crime in
0:05Jedwabne were not Poles,
0:08>> but were Germans?
0:09>> Absolutely. The Jews want to turn
0:12Jedwabne into a symbol of a Polish
0:14Holocaust. If someone acknowledges that
0:20it actually happened on the Jewish
0:22community's land, we will have to pay
0:24reparations for the Holocaust, because
0:26Gross wrote those books. I say, "Well,
0:29to me, Gross is a storyteller. Since we
0:32discovered completely different facts,
0:34a completely different scenario of what
0:36happened, it means there is something
0:39wrong with that book."
0:40>> How is it possible that on Polish soil
0:43>> exactly
0:44>> representatives of the Jewish community
0:46and Rabbi Schudrich, they decided where
0:48the exhumation would take place, who
0:50would perform it, and when there should
0:52be a break in these operations. At that
0:56moment, when we were being told that
0:58Poles were the instigators of the
0:59Holocaust, red lights went off for us.
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2:22coworking space. My guest today is
2:33Professor Małgorzata Grupa. Good
2:35morning.
2:35>> Good morning. Professor, there is a
2:39saying that a nation that does not know
2:41its true history is doomed to repeat it
2:43, and this can be repeated as a cliché
2:45. But how, Professor, do we reach a
2:50truth that is so uncomfortable that no
2:52one wants to talk about it out loud?
2:56>> The situation is that there have been
2:58many such events in our history, and we
3:00have learned nothing, and we keep
3:02repeating old mistakes, and this has
3:04been going on for centuries. Here,
3:07other factors also have an impact on
3:09our history, the most recent one. And
3:14starting with, for example, the Russian
3:16entry into Polish territory on
3:18September 17, where it was absolutely
3:21impossible to talk about it practically
3:23until 1989. Few people know this.
3:28Besides, there were three aggressors,
3:30not two, right? Because the Slovak army
3:32also entered. What most Poles don't
3:37even know at all, that it collaborated
3:39with Hitler, and then the Katyn affair,
3:42about which one practically couldn't
3:43speak, but information was arriving
3:45from the East. In connection with this,
3:51the Katyn families and the officers '
3:53wives were somehow in contact with each
3:55other and passed this information on.
4:00But from our meetings, we also know
4:02that women, 90-year-old widows, did not
4:04know that their husbands had died in
4:06the East. So this history of ours is
4:12constantly being sifted through by some
4:14authority, by some group of people, by
4:16some social nation. And unfortunately,
4:22we found ourselves in such a situation
4:24also with Jedwabne, because about the
4:27Katyn affair, we could perhaps start
4:29talking from 1989 onwards. About
4:34Jedwabne, ladies and gentlemen, we
4:36should not be speaking at all. At least
4:39that is what they would want for the
4:40version that we discovered, right? The
4:44version that the Earth revealed to us,
4:46and not the one presented in the book
4:48by Tomasz Gross, supposedly written on
4:51the basis of written sources. But those
4:56sources, if it were the truth in his
4:58book, then those sources do not agree
5:00with archaeological sources. I once
5:04accidentally said that the Earth does
5:06not lie, and that became an official
5:08slogan, but ladies and gentlemen, the
5:11Earth really does not lie. If no one
5:17reached things that were found several
5:19thousand years BC in the Earth, or 1000
5:22years, or just 40 or 50 years, then
5:24archaeologists are trained to interpret
5:26what they find in the ground and what
5:34can be revealed. And in this situation,
5:38the exhumations in Kharkiv, Katyn,
5:40Mednoye, or later in Kyiv were to
5:42provide evidence for the investigation.
5:46Whether they did it, whether the Soviet
5:48Union did it, or whether the Germans
5:50did it. I believe that the research
5:53from 94-96 in the territories of the
5:59Soviet Union proved that it was the
6:01work of the Soviet Union and the
6:02extermination of the majority of our
6:04intelligentsia and professional
6:06soldiers. And I believe that we
6:12provided that information, we provided
6:14that evidence. If we work with the IPN,
6:19then IPN prosecutors also demand
6:21evidence from us, and interpretations
6:23of that evidence, which we pull from
6:25the ground. And the same situation was
6:29in Jedwabne. Only we realized quite
6:32quickly that it probably wasn't about
6:34the truth that we discovered. And we
6:38started speaking in Polish, but
6:40everyone was talking about something
6:42else, and it was: we were talking about
6:44what we were discovering in the ground,
6:46and the group of people that was
6:51supervising us, including the rabbis,
6:53was talking about something completely
6:55different, and here a discrepancy arose
6:57. And at a certain point, we were no
6:59longer speaking with the same voice,
7:01even though everyone was speaking
7:03Polish, except for Rabbi Schudrich.
7:06Well, and that is how it is. Well, here
7:08it is very significant what you said,
7:10that the Earth does not lie. For while
7:12one can understand attempts to silence
7:14historical truths tied to political
7:16struggle, what comes out of the earth
7:18is different. Hard physical evidence is
7:23beyond any questioning. Have you
7:28encountered attempts to censor or
7:30silence the hard, irrefutable physical
7:32discoveries that you found in the
7:34ground? The most important issue was
7:40that we could not talk about what we
7:42had unearthed. Yes, an investigation
7:45was indeed underway. There are rules
7:47that if
7:49>> meaning you had permission for the
7:50exhumation and the right to work, but
7:52you couldn't talk about it?
7:54>> No, we could not.
7:55>> For what reason?
7:57>> Exactly. And here we arrive at the next
8:02stages, which we began to discover
8:04while being there on site, because when
8:06we arrived for the exhumation, the
8:08whole area was surrounded. The Podlasie
8:12police were guarding the entire area,
8:15including us. To enter the site of the
8:18barn, which was already covered with
8:20military camouflage netting, we had to
8:22have passes. No Polish journalist had
8:29the right to enter the research area,
8:31which happened to us for the absolute
8:33first time in our lives. Honestly, I am
8:38currently finishing my 44th year of
8:40work and it was the one and only time
8:45that this has happened to me, and I
8:47hope it will never happen again.
8:48>> But you say that the area was
8:50surrounded by police. That was in
8:52Jedwabne, as I understand, that was the
8:54Polish police. Yes.
8:55>> But who were the people who tried to
8:57silence you?
8:59>> The situation was such that an
9:01investigation was being conducted, so
9:03the IPN demanded we sign a document
9:05stating we would not reveal the facts
9:07we discovered. Meaning, what we uncover
9:10in the earth. Everyone signed,
9:12>> which is a total absurdity.
9:13>> Yes. Meaning we were working with the
9:18IPN and prosecutors against it. An
9:21investigation is being conducted. We
9:24discover our findings, consult with
9:26them, and interpret them. I have
9:28collaborated with IPN prosecutors many
9:31times and there really was never any
9:33problem. Once the investigation is
9:38finished, we can freely talk about what
9:40we discovered, how we interpreted it,
9:42and how it was received by the IPN,
9:44Polish historians, and Polish
9:46archaeologists. And here it turned out
9:52that even when the investigation ended,
9:55because in 2019, when I revealed the
9:57truth about it, the truth, excuse me,
9:59the truth about Jedwabne, the
10:04investigation was already closed, and
10:06yet it was still believed that we
10:08should not talk about it. Something is
10:10wrong there, isn't it? So at that
10:13moment, various types of threats, right
10:15? Various people who were outraged that
10:20we were talking about it at all. Some
10:22people from whom I would not have even
10:24expected it. From people who questioned
10:26this historical truth, or threats, I
10:28don't know, from the media, from
10:29decision-makers. It wasn't really the
10:32media—the media didn't want to talk
10:34to us—so, where were the threats
10:36coming from? Uh, from people I wouldn't
10:39have even expected. Uh, and that, uh,
10:44why do we keep wanting to talk about a
10:46history that didn't happen? I say, well
10:51, uh, because Gross wrote books, and I
10:54say: "Well, to me, Gross is a
10:56storyteller." I’m sorry to say this,
11:02but since we discovered completely
11:04different facts, a completely different
11:06scenario of what happened in Jedwabne,
11:08it means there is something wrong with
11:10that book. Ladies and gentlemen, if
11:16Polish historians and Polish archivists
11:18don't have full access to the same
11:20sources that Tomasz Gross had access to
11:22, then we really have nothing to talk
11:25about, because I don't know if Tomasz
11:27Gross's version is based on sources—
11:29that’s what they say, but I'm not
11:31convinced. However, we are talking
11:36about the sources that Professor Cola's
11:38entire team discovered. Yes, there were
11:4312 of us, more than 12 well-trained
11:45archaeologists. Most had participated
11:48in exhumations within the territory of
11:50the Soviet Union. Later we worked in
11:53Sobibór, worked in Bełżec, so for us
11:56, exhumations were not some
11:57unprecedented event. We were simply
12:01starting the work for which we were
12:03excellently prepared. After all, that
12:06was at least 7 years of work,
12:08participating in various exhumations.
12:11It wasn't just the Katyn exhumations,
12:13but later here in Poland as well. So it
12:18seemed to us that we were going to do a
12:20proper job, the kind that was always
12:22expected of us. And suddenly it turned
12:27out that we shouldn't really see what
12:28we were discovering. We were supposed
12:31to be blind. And it would be best if we
12:33signed off on a version that had
12:35already been created long ago. I don't
12:38know why someone thought that
12:39archaeologists would go to the
12:41exhumation in Jedwabne and confirm the
12:43version of Tomasz Gross that he
12:45included in his book. Well, the
12:48archaeologists did go to the exhumation
12:50, and they cannot confirm the version
12:52of Tomasz
12:53>> Gross. Fine, let's talk about those
12:57alternative facts that you managed to
12:59uncover in the context of the IPN
13:01investigation, which is considered the
13:04official version of the events of July
13:0610, 1941, in Jedwabne. According to the
13:11official IPN investigation, a mass
13:13murder of Jews took place there,
13:15committed by Poles under German
13:17inspiration. What in this version
13:21>> do I ask about? German inspiration is
13:23not mentioned. It's not there.
13:24>> This is official information. I mean, I
13:26don't know if it was changed, but what
13:28part of this version do you not agree
13:30with? The situation is such that when
13:32we arrived in Jedwabne—both the first
13:34time and then the second time, once we
13:37had located the barns and were supposed
13:39to conduct research—we were
13:41constantly told to look for a mass
13:42grave of Jews, that is, the men who
13:48carried the broken monument from the
13:50market square in Jedwabne. Uh, and, uh,
13:55this mass grave was supposed to be
13:58located in the Jewish cemetery, that is
14:00on the other side, uh, of the road, uh,
14:03opposite the barn. Given that we all
14:08know how to identify graves, uh, all
14:10those who were there knew how to
14:12recognize mass graves. Not just me or
14:16Professor Kola. We absolutely could not
14:19find such a place in the cemetery. Yes,
14:22excavations for ordinary single burials
14:25, yes, but not for mass graves. So,
14:29since we didn't find this mass grave in
14:31the cemetery, well, yes, but surely it
14:34was all dug up because trenches were
14:36being dug. When the Soviet Union's
14:41troops were already in our territory
14:42and moving here from the east in this
14:45direction, well, the Germans were
14:46digging deep trenches. Therefore, this
14:51grave was likely scattered. Well,
14:57ladies and gentlemen, 60 skeletons, 60
14:59people, if they were in such a dug-up,
15:02right, trench, we would have found bone
15:04fragments. This is for us, uh,
15:10absolutely normal. When someone, uh,
15:15walks around a cemetery and old graves
15:17are being dug up to bury, uh, new
15:19people in that spot, if you dig the
15:22soil well, a small fragment of bone
15:24will always be unearthed. We didn't
15:31have that situation there, so even then
15:33we concluded that something was wrong
15:35with that mass grave and that it had to
15:37be in a different place. But where?
15:43There was no talk of the fact that
15:45anything happened inside the barn
15:47before the burning, uh, of the women,
15:49children, and the elderly. So, as if
15:54nothing should have happened, uh, in
15:56the barn before the burning, uh, of
15:58that Jewish group. Uh, and in fact, we
16:07accidentally found the mass grave
16:09inside the barn only because when we
16:11weren't allowed to work around the barn
16:13, we sat on the barn's foundation and
16:15idled away. And when, after another 15
16:23minutes or half an hour, we were
16:24allowed to work, we would again
16:26discover some fragments of remains that
16:28had been burned outside the barn, but
16:30then there was another phone call and
16:32again we weren't allowed. So, the
16:36tension between the young people began
16:38to grow, especially between those
16:40people who came to guard us, so that we
16:42wouldn't, I don't know, whatever.
16:44>> And who were those people who were
16:46making those phone calls? Who were the
16:48people who were guarding you then?
16:49>> That is, those people were
16:51representatives of the Warsaw Jewish
16:53community, young people, and well,
16:55Rabbi Schudrich. How is it possible
16:57that on Polish soil
16:59>> exactly
17:00>> in Poland, representatives of the
17:01Jewish community and Rabbi Schudrich,
17:04they decided where the exhumation would
17:06be conducted, who would carry it out,
17:08and when there should be a break in
17:10those operations. The situation is of
17:12this type. One would also need to reach
17:14state sources. Given that this was all
17:18done in agreement with our authorities.
17:26The only person who was clear to me was
17:28Professor Kulasza, who arrived on site
17:30when I committed a crime. I'll tell you
17:34what it was in a moment, and it had to
17:36be verified. Which makes me laugh. I
17:39almost started World War II. And then,
17:42well, because that's how you can
17:44describe it, right, when I tell my
17:46friends. And then, at the end, Minister
17:51Lech Kaczyński arrived, so there were
17:58>> who was then Minister of Justice and
18:00Prosecutor General, and the situation
18:02was such that I didn't really come into
18:04contact with other people from the
18:05government. These were the
18:09representatives for me who were in
18:10contact with us and were also in
18:12contact with the Jewish nation, and
18:18above all with Michael Schudrich, who
18:20butchered the Polish language so much
18:22that, well, he was the Chief Rabbi of
18:24Łódź and Warsaw, it was a total
18:26scandal to me. But okay, he was
18:31recognized as the Chief Rabbi of Poland
18:33, right. Someone must have accepted
18:36that. Yes, but his contacts were direct
18:41with our authorities of the Republic.
18:49And because of that, we had to submit
18:51to all those, right, strange matters,
18:53because when work was interrupted, it
18:56was supposedly agreed upon with Lech
18:58Kaczyński's ministry. So, since we
19:04were constantly being bothered and
19:06those moods,
19:07>> so can you say that Lech Kaczyński
19:09blocked
19:11>> the exhumation in Jedwabne as well. He
19:14gave permission first, and then if we
19:16were constantly interrupted and
19:17couldn't work, then something was wrong
19:19, right? At that time, we didn't really
19:24investigate, we only saw who was
19:25contacting and talking to us, so I
19:27think there weren't any other people
19:29behind it. Uh, however, there was such
19:40a bad atmosphere in Jedwabne, and my
19:42colleagues, we, the professor, were
19:44already very tired and frustrated by it
19:46, and we really thought that we could
19:49actually leave, because if we weren't
19:51allowed to work normally as we do on
19:53digs, then why are we here? Yes, but at
20:03some point, we stood our ground and
20:05said no, we would work those two weeks
20:07that had been scheduled. And then we
20:14thought that maybe we should talk to
20:16Mr. Andrzej Przewoźnik, that since
20:18nothing had happened in the barn before
20:20, maybe he could hold talks with Lech
20:22Kaczyński or Schudrich, or someone
20:24else from the Jewish nation, so that we
20:26could at least do something there,
20:28occupy our thoughts and hands, and
20:30start digging inside the barn. And here
20:40I believe that Gross didn't do the work
20:42and didn't reach the sources, since
20:44that information wasn't in the book.
20:48Because in the book it said–which I,
20:51as an ordinary woman, not an
20:52archaeologist, couldn't understand,
20:55right–that 60 men are standing there,
20:57right, watching as five drunk Poles
20:59drive their women, children, and old
21:01people inside and set it on fire. Do
21:04you believe such a version? Well, it's
21:07impossible. Five drunk guys are capable
21:10of doing something like that, while
21:12those 60 men are standing there
21:16watching it and just...
21:17>> Well, that is rather unbelievable, but
21:20you started digging in that barn, so
21:22what did you find there? Well, and when
21:27we finally got the permission, we got
21:29that permission very quickly, uh, we
21:31knew that at the head of that entire
21:33march were men who were carrying a
21:35smashed concrete Lenin. Because when
21:40the Russians entered Polish territories
21:42, they basically put up Lenin monuments
21:44everywhere, in big cities and in small
21:46towns. Uh, well, and this Lenin had
21:49just been, uh, smashed. Uh, so they
21:53were carrying those pieces, uh, uh. I
21:58here, uh, in this book of ours that we
22:01wrote, "Exhumations," yes, uh, I tried
22:03to present, uh, such information on
22:11exactly what such a march might have
22:13looked like with that Lenin. Like here,
22:19right, Jewish men are carrying that
22:23Lenin, right, in front of...
22:25>> Can I see?
22:25>> Please, go ahead.
22:27>> I understand this is proof that the
22:29Germans were there, because according
22:31to sources and according to the
22:33investigation after World War II, the
22:35official narrative was that
22:37>> they weren't there,
22:38>> that the Germans weren't there at all.
22:40So that means discovering that piece,
22:42that fragment, meant that those Germans
22:44were there at the time. How can you be
22:47sure that this piece, this fragment,
22:49wasn't from actions...
22:51>> Of the Lenin monument,
22:52>> of the Lenin monument, that it wasn't
22:54from actions before, I don't know, uh,
22:56'44, '45, but precisely from the events
22:59of...
22:59>> The matter was simple, given that I was
23:01a well-trained person at the Kharkiv
23:03exhumations. Then I did conservation
23:05work. My team, under my leadership,
23:08performed the conservation of all the
23:11remains recovered from Katyn, Kharkiv,
23:13Mednoye, and Kyiv. The situation was
23:17such that in Kharkiv, our officers were
23:19being shot in, in the NKVD cellar in
23:23the center of Kharkiv. They were packed
23:27onto trucks. They were taken 10 km
23:32outside the center of Kharkiv, to the
23:34so-called Piatykhatky forest, a forest
23:37park where they were dumped into death
23:39pits dug earlier, or rather chiseled
23:41out, because it was minus 40 degrees
23:43back then. Ladies and gentlemen,
23:49digging in such loess clay soil,
23:51heavily compacted, digging such pits
23:53was not that simple. So I think some
23:57prisoners must have dug them. Certainly
23:59not the Soviet army. And because all
24:03traces of the Poles, of the Polish
24:05officers, were to completely disappear,
24:07their suitcases and equipment were
24:09thrown in after them and set on fire.
24:12Only at a sub-zero temperature of -40,
24:16-38 it didn't burn with a flame like,
24:20you know, when we light a campfire.
24:27Then they were brought in, it was
24:29smoldering, it wasn't directly exposed
24:31to fire, but actually, the fabrics
24:33found in those suitcases were baked,
24:35and we spent almost a year struggling
24:37to reconstruct the only cassock from
24:40the Katyn case, because on December 24,
24:421939, all chaplains of all
24:44denominations were taken from all camps
24:46. Uh, I don't know why one cassock
24:52remained. If it remained, then one of
24:54the officers must have taken it with
24:56him, and it ended up in that suitcase,
24:58the one that was set on fire. And
25:03because our Toruń team recovered that
25:05cassock, it was baked, and for a year
25:07we tried to take those baked fragments
25:09of the cassock and bring them to a
25:16state where we could perform a
25:18reconstruction. That cassock is now in
25:22the Katyn Museum, and given that these
25:24materials
25:25>> I wonder what connection this has to
25:27the chalice.
25:28>> Yes. And because we knew what baked
25:38wool fabric looked like—one that
25:40didn't have direct contact with fire—
25:42when my colleagues discovered fragments
25:45of that concrete Lenin, we managed to
25:47uncover the first remains of
25:48individuals in anatomical order, and on
25:51those remains, on the bones, lay
25:52fabrics—baked fabrics—so they could
25:55not have ended up in that pit after the
25:57barn was burned. They must have been
26:08there before the barn was burned, and
26:10the fabrics and all those remains were
26:12covered with 10 to 15 centimeters of
26:14soil.
26:15>> It is truly incredible that you were
26:17able to reach such a conclusion through
26:19your investigation.
26:20>> Well, because they generally hired
26:22highly educated people. Not just
26:24archaeologists, but also conservators.
26:30Most of them were my students, who were
26:32also being trained in the conservation
26:34of archaeological artifacts, so, well,
26:36maybe they weren't as educated as I was
26:38, since they were my students, but with
26:41the Katyn case and later the Jedwabne
26:43case, I could have practically given
26:45them credit for the entire year on the
26:47spot. They didn't even have to attend
26:53classes anymore, although they still
26:54did. So here we were absolutely
26:59convinced that the remains we found
27:01inside the barn were there before the
27:02barn was burned. Due to the fact that
27:09the fabrics on the skeletons,
27:11especially on the thighs and calves,
27:13were baked. 15 centimeters of soil on
27:19top of that is no insulation at all. So
27:28here, because I participated in various
27:31experiments in Denmark on how long a
27:33longhouse from 500 BC could burn, how
27:35long it took to burn down such a hut
27:37made of thick logs, and it only burned
27:40for 20 minutes, while the barn was made
27:42of thin boards, so that barn would have
27:45burned down in 10 to 15 minutes. We
27:57must add that bodies were burning, and
27:59the fat that melted while the barn was
28:01on fire seemed to prolong the burning
28:03process—it sustained the fire. If
28:12only the barn had burned without people
28:14inside, it would have been just ashes
28:16after 15 minutes. That is certainly a
28:21far-reaching conclusion. To what extent
28:24can it be considered credible evidence?
28:26>> Why? Because we found the remains of a
28:29smashed Lenin statue.
28:32>> Before we managed to uncover the first
28:34layer of skeletons arranged in
28:36anatomical position—they were lying
28:38in pairs. The pit was half the length
28:42of the barn. The situation was such
28:47that my students first found a concrete
28:49ear. We associated it with the
28:54possibility that it was the ear of a
28:56broken Lenin. Then they found fragments
28:59of the torso. Ladies and gentlemen,
29:02these concrete remains are currently at
29:04the Museum of the Second World War in
29:06Gdańsk. Therefore, this is not
29:09something we invented, right? It is
29:12evidence that this broken Lenin,
29:15>> but do you consider it irrefutable
29:17proof that—in your view—is it
29:19irrefutable?
29:20>> Mhm. So, is it in no way prone to error
29:23or a low level of probability that this
29:25ear could be interpreted as something
29:27else, and that what you are saying is
29:30indeed a far-reaching
29:32>> conclusion, a deduction that might be
29:34unlikely? Yes, Lenin’s torso,
29:37Lenin’s head—the parts we managed
29:40to extract were recovered, and they
29:42confirm they come from a Lenin monument
29:44.
29:46>> Consequently, we have absolutely no
29:48information that after the barn was
29:53burned, a new barn was built, right?
29:57And that anything happened during or
29:59after the war in that area. So,
30:03generally, absolutely we were looking
30:07for the barn. If a barn had stood there
30:09after the war, people would likely have
30:11known where it was located. When we
30:13went there for the first time, we were
30:14actually looking for the barn's
30:16foundations first. We were shown the
30:18location of this barn in various places
30:20, just not where it actually stood. So,
30:23using our archaeological common sense,
30:25we found the foundations of this barn
30:28ourselves, opposite the Jewish cemetery
30:30.
30:31>> Mhm. And the Mauser shell casings you
30:35found—do you classify them as
30:36evidence that irrefutably points to the
30:39Germans as the perpetrators of this
30:40crime? Can you imagine that during the
30:46German occupation, the Germans would
30:48have handed weapons to Poles? Loaded
30:55weapons, because we found those casings
30:57in the corner of the barn, not outside,
31:00but inside the barn. And it was all in
31:04one place. It looks as if they were
31:08simply firing diagonally at the people
31:10who were inside the barn. So there is
31:14no possibility that Poles were doing
31:16the shooting. Is it possible that they
31:20could have been firing warning shots or
31:22finishing off those who were fleeing?
31:26The Fakt Checking portal verified your
31:28statement in the context that the found
31:31shell casings come from fighting in
31:33January 1945. Year.
31:37>> In one place, right? In the corner of a
31:39barn that wasn't there.
31:40>> What do you think about that? To me,
31:43it's nonsense, but my conversations
31:45with people now serve as confirmation
31:47of what we are talking about, as they
31:54tell us what was being said in Jedwabne
31:56during the war and after the war. And
32:02confirmation that the Germans were
32:04there is the fact that, practically,
32:06after everything had happened and the
32:08Poles who were supposed to be witnesses
32:10to all these events had been dispersed,
32:12no one could approach the barn for
32:14three days. People still heard single
32:20shots, moans, because, ladies and
32:23gentlemen, there is no way that 400
32:29people could have completely burned up
32:31in the barn. Some were suffocated,
32:35trampled. Just as if you spend some
32:40time in Jedwabne and check roughly what
32:42the prevailing winds are. So we also
32:45tried to reconstruct the entire
32:47scenario of how women, children, and
32:49the elderly were driven into the barn,
32:52and from which direction the wind was
32:54blowing. Evidently, when they were
32:57driven in and the barn was set on fire,
33:00everyone fled to the opposite wall, so
33:02some people were trampled, suffocated,
33:04and most likely they were overcome by
33:06fumes, and those were the moans of the
33:08people who were later finished off. So,
33:14uh, here, uh, all the information we
33:16are trying to collect, because, ladies
33:18and gentlemen, we are actually working
33:21on this material all the time; it’s
33:23not as if we have established a
33:25scenario and are no longer looking for
33:27sources. Yes, at the moment, because we
33:33started talking about Jedwabne, people
33:35from those areas are also starting to
33:37open up and come for conversations and
33:40talk about the situation, just as
33:42grandmothers, aunts, mothers, or
33:44grandfathers talked about it, right?
33:49What it looked like.
33:50>> And were you able to verify the human
33:52remains that you encountered there? I
33:55listened, uh, before our conversation,
33:57I listened to an interview with a POLIN
34:00Museum employee who said that 40%of the
34:02victims were children. I wonder where
34:06he got such information. Based on the
34:09remains, were you able to
34:11>> Jewish families were large,
34:15>> but based on the charred remains and
34:17what was analyzed by anthropologists
34:19and forensic experts, our search was
34:28based on determining how many people
34:30could have been in the barn and how
34:32many people actually did not burn in
34:34that barn. Uh, immediately when we were
34:41given that number, 1,400, 1,600 people,
34:44which was improbable to us at all, that
34:47>> but it was also updated by the IPN in
34:50the context of Jan Tomasz Gross. The
34:54situation, yes, because the situation
34:57was such that the charred remains we
34:59extracted from the outside, in the
35:01corners of the barn, amounted to more
35:04or less 360 to 400 people. It is
35:07impossible to calculate this perfectly.
35:11And as for children, ladies and
35:13gentlemen, when we excavate even in
35:15cemeteries, children’s remains
35:17decompose the fastest. Simply put,
35:22certain features are not fully formed,
35:24the skull is not fused, so it is even
35:26more impossible with burnt remains to
35:29provide a percentage of the number of
35:31children. Perhaps this was determined
35:35from sources. That some pre-war records
35:42of Jews were kept, and from that
35:44perhaps it was calculated how many
35:46children might have lived in Jedwabne,
35:48in Jewish families, but to say from the
35:51burnt remains that 40%were children, it
35:53could have been so. If one were to
36:03count how many Jewish families lived in
36:05Jedwabne, assuming families had four or
36:07five children, then we could draw those
36:10averages, but not based on burnt
36:12remains. Due to the fact that even if,
36:19uh, children burned, and they were
36:26swept into pits located outside the
36:28barn in the corners, then the burnt
36:35remains of children are like down.
36:38It’s as if we took, right, what
36:48remains of dandelions—that fluffy
36:50part—and blew it in such a way with
36:52the wind that was there, one could say
36:54they could just as easily have spread
36:57outside, because from what it looked
36:59like, those remains were swept from the
37:09barn, from the barn’s surface, they
37:11were swept into the pits that had been
37:13dug.
37:13>> The podcast partner is the producer of
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37:22>> Besides this evidence from the
37:24archaeological work, you also reached
37:26witnesses to these events. Were these
37:30witnesses who could recount these
37:32events firsthand?
37:34>> Ms. Wanda,
37:35>> what did you learn? Ms. Wanda confirmed
37:39most of our version.
37:42>> She was a resident of Jedwabne, she
37:44passed away last year. As late as last
37:50year, she was with us at the
37:52commemorations in Jedwabne, so she
37:54provided us with the most information,
37:56and then the people who started coming
37:58and telling what was said at home, at
38:00least I could verify all those things.
38:06that I was thinking about, which we
38:08managed to uncover as a whole team.
38:10Ladies and gentlemen, this is not just
38:12my version. There were quite a few of
38:16us archaeologists, and absolutely these
38:18are the reflections of people who
38:20returned from the research in the
38:21evening. We sat in the hotel in the
38:27evening, talked about what we had
38:29managed to discover, how it could be
38:31interpreted, how to approach the topic,
38:33whether we had already managed to find
38:35a similar situation that we could
38:37compare, right, with another event we
38:39had worked on. It is simply an
38:45accumulation of knowledge, right? And
38:49it’s not based on the idea that,
38:50absolutely, if I hadn't done this work
38:52before, hadn't known what fired fabric
38:55looked like, I wouldn't have been able
38:57to interpret it. It's not as if an
39:00archaeologist finishes university and
39:02immediately knows what to do. Well, no.
39:04They must gain knowledge, they must
39:06gain experience, and in truth, it is
39:08practice that teaches us. And since we
39:12have been working with World War II
39:14since '94, I thought that after the
39:16Katyn exhumations I wouldn't work on
39:18another one. I have been working ever
39:26since, it just happened that way, but
39:28this knowledge grows, it constantly
39:30accumulates, and even the things we
39:33established back then in Jedwabne, now
39:35after all these analyses, after various
39:37sources, after various other things we
39:39did—I dug in Auschwitz, I also dug in
39:42Brzezinka, so the synagogue in
39:44Auschwitz, all these blown-up things—
39:46it is an accumulation that confirms our
39:48interpretation, and it happens based on
39:50the growth of our knowledge, not just a
39:53single event.
39:58>> And what did you learn from Mrs. Wanda?
40:00A person who could recount these events
40:02to you firsthand.
40:04>> The first thing was that, above all,
40:06the Germans participated in it.
40:09>> But did the Germans participate, or
40:11only the Germans? Because if we want to
40:14debunk the theory in which Poles acted
40:16on German inspiration, well, there are
40:19many such events. The situation is such
40:22that they made very good use of
40:27Jewish-Polish conflicts in every region
40:29, especially in the east. And here,
40:32inciting the Poles was not, so to speak
40:37, any great trouble. Especially since
40:40they had pulled them, right, out of an
40:42NKVD prison, where they had ended up
40:44through the denunciations, right, of
40:46the Jewish population. Add to that
40:49alcohol and keeping everyone at
40:56gunpoint, because almost nothing is
40:57said about this, but just as the Jews
41:00were driven in columns to that barn, to
41:02the cemetery, in the same way, the
41:04Poles were cordoned off, who were meant
41:06to be the crowd and watch what would
41:08happen. It was also a warning for the
41:13Poles. See what will happen to you if
41:15you are not obedient. So, these kinds
41:19of actions have been known for
41:20centuries and they are simply repeated.
41:24And especially the Scheper commando in
41:26the east simply made perfect use of
41:28every conflict. So, the fact that there
41:34were Poles there who allegedly robbed
41:36Jews, right, as they were being driven
41:38there. And that is why we found half a
41:50kilogram of jewelry in those burnt
41:52remains, money, at least 10 coins, yes,
41:54which were stuck together by rust from
41:56lying in the ground, so we kept
41:58overturning some information, watches
42:00that we found in that place where the
42:02burnt remains were dumped. We do not
42:13know what is on the remains of the men,
42:15most likely men, who carried Lenin and
42:17who are located inside the barn,
42:19because no one allowed us to exhume
42:21those remains. And at this moment,
42:29ladies and gentlemen, confirmation of
42:31whether those shots were fired at them
42:33or not is only possible through
42:35exhumation, because just like in the
42:37Kantyn case, all the bullet holes we
42:39find, or blows from any axe or rod, we
42:42can read that on the bones. We can also
42:50read whether it was a fatal wound or a
42:52scarred wound, where a person, for
42:54example, lived on with some sort of
42:56injury. Until there is an exhumation in
43:04Jedwabne, until we uncover that grave
43:06and discover and confirm whether they
43:09were shot at or not, we can say that
43:11yes—there is a grave, that it is most
43:13likely a Jewish grave, but we cannot
43:16say so with 100%certainty. Right now, I
43:21know that a Jewish cemetery is to be
43:24moved there, and if these are not
43:26Jewish men, then what? The rest, who
43:28are buried there in the barn—the
43:30remains—will lie with non-Jews.
43:34>> Well, I don't think so.
43:36>> Well, alright, but then what about the
43:38post-war trial where 22 alleged Polish
43:41perpetrators were accused? 10 were
43:44convicted of beating Jews in the
43:45marketplace. One perpetrator allegedly
43:48boasted about bayoneting 18 Jews.
43:52According to many historical sources,
43:54about 100 Poles were involved in this
43:56crime. Yes, the situation, the
44:00situation was such that this version is
44:06that, from what I understand, men stood
44:13and watched what happened, then a pit
44:15was made at the Jewish cemetery, their
44:17bellies were ripped open with bayonets,
44:19and they were thrown into the pit of
44:24death. Well, there is no pit of death
44:27at the Jewish cemetery, so they
44:29couldn't have had their bellies ripped
44:31open and been thrown into that pit of
44:33death, because there is no mass grave
44:35there. And it was always said that they
44:41died after the burning of the barn, but
44:43we have a grave from before the burning
44:44of the barn.
44:48>> Mhm.
44:49>> So, in a way, this contradicts that
44:52version.
44:53>> Mhm. And when you spoke with Ms. Wanda
44:56and, I suspect, many other people who
44:58could have reported these events to you
45:00, what did they say about Polish-Jewish
45:03relations? They were kids then.
45:07>> And in truth, uh, besides the fact that
45:15the Germans were there and were
45:17shooting, everyone was terrified, and,
45:19uh, it wasn't a matter of someone being
45:21able to reconstruct all the facts like
45:24in a movie, especially a child who was
45:268 or 10 years old, they were just as
45:28terrified, driven by the Germans just
45:30as the Jews were driven, and, uh, they
45:32were mere bystanders, right, in the
45:34whole, in this whole event. So, uh,
45:42everything here needs to be sifted
45:44through, because it’s not the case,
45:46ladies and gentlemen, that we accept
45:49all accounts without any reflection,
45:51which would simply be the biggest
45:52mistake. Take, for example, how we were
45:58looking for where the barn might have
46:00been located. One of the men, a very
46:05tall man, was showing us then where
46:07that barn should have stood. He says, "
46:09You know what?""But how from that field
46:11?""Well, the barn was functional.""Here
46:14are the gates.""On the other side are
46:15the gates.""There must be a road, there
46:17must be a way out.""No, it was there in
46:19the middle of the field." I say, "
46:21Alright, but where is that road?""Well,
46:23they plowed it over." I say, "You know
46:25what, but if there had been a road, we
46:27would have found it by the color of the
46:29greenery, because it’s a different
46:31soil." And something clicked, and I
46:35said, "And how old were you?""When it
46:37happened?""A year and a half." Well,
46:40and when I heard that, I told the guys,
46:42we’re looking for the barn on our own
46:44. We are no longer listening to
46:47anything the people here are telling us
46:49, we are just searching according to
46:50our own knowledge. And we found that
46:54barn almost immediately, once we
46:56realized that it had to have happened
46:58from the road, so that barn must have
47:00stood by the road. And since there was
47:04supposed to be a mass grave at the
47:06Jewish cemetery, it must have happened
47:08near the cemetery. So we started
47:10looking on the other side of the
47:12cemetery and, actually, after three
47:14minutes we found that barn. It is just
47:21very strange to me how people didn't go
47:23to that place, because that mass grave,
47:26where those remains lay together with a
47:28broken monument, was a situation where
47:31it was only 10, 15 cm of soil; nobody
47:33dug there. Which is something that
47:41almost never happens at such sites,
47:46>> and yet people did not go there,
47:49>> so return
47:49>> they were simply afraid of that area.
47:53So, returning to the official version
47:55of the IPN, what you are talking about,
47:57the evidence that attests to this—can
47:59you therefore sign your name to the
48:01statement that the perpetrators of the
48:03crime in Jedwabne were not Poles,
48:07>> Germans,
48:08>> but were Germans?
48:09>> Absolutely.
48:09>> Mhm.
48:10>> They were the total ringleaders. They
48:14orchestrated all of this, and
48:16everything was based on fear, right?
48:21Fear. Besides, we tried to present this
48:25in our illustrations here in our book
48:27on the exhumations. I think that up
48:37until now—after conversations with
48:39those people who came to me in Jedwabne
48:41—I think that the continuation and
48:43the information I obtained from these
48:46people this year in Jedwabne, we will
48:48try to describe and, above all,
48:50illustrate, because a person is, after
48:52all, someone who is, well, better
48:54spoken to through images. That is, that
49:00is what I think, and yes, we will talk
49:02about it here, but it should also be
49:04illustrated in a certain way. Well,
49:08those are very strong words, which
49:10prove that the official historical
49:12truth our children are taught should
49:14also be verified.
49:16>> It is strange that such a message does
49:18not reach the mainstream media. I have
49:21always wondered about one thing, even
49:23later after Jedwabne, we were already
49:25after the research in Sobibor, in
49:27Bełżec, and then came Jedwabne. I
49:31kept wondering all the time how it is
49:33possible that to Bełżec Jews from all
49:38over Europe were brought in. Daily,
49:44there were about 2,000 people brought
49:46in, and there, in those extermination
49:49camps, there were 20 Ukrainians and
49:51eight Germans under arms and barbed
49:58wire, but not like the entanglements in
50:00Auschwitz, just two strands of barbed
50:02wire that were stretched around trees.
50:06At the moment, this barbed wire is
50:08growing at a height of about 2.0 to
50:102.40 meters. If you look closely, on
50:13those thick trees, at this moment,
50:15those barbed wires still remain there.
50:20And how is it possible that so much
50:22effort was devoted to the liquidation
50:24of Jews in the Eastern Zone? What is
50:27this about? And only when we started
50:36walking around Bełżec or Sobibor to
50:38check the hydrography of the area, it
50:40turned out these camps were practically
50:42located in the middle of swamps, and
50:44you didn't need many guards, you know,
50:47they were only at the camp entrance,
50:49because the main factor guarding them
50:51was actually the swamps. And if people
51:00from the eastern zone, living in
51:02eastern Poland, had ended up in such
51:04camps, they would have led people out
51:06through the swamps every day.
51:10>> Since no person from the Eastern Zone
51:12was there, there was absolutely no need
51:14for a greater commitment of forces and
51:16people to guard those who were brought
51:18to these camps. Ladies and gentlemen,
51:21because 2,000 were already being
51:23liquidated here Jews daily. Because it
51:30came to this, and only 30 people were
51:32guarding them, so absolutely the main
51:34factor here was the swamps, through
51:36which no one could lead them out,
51:37because there were no people living in
51:40the area.
51:45>> Does that mean that witness accounts
51:47and Jan Tomasz Gross's sources and his
51:49book "Neighbors," on which the IPN also
51:52based its investigation, were what? It
51:56means that he was simply using
51:57erroneous sources and data, and
51:59misinterpreting facts. Do you think
52:02that maybe it was?
52:04>> I believe he wrote it on commission.
52:06>> On commission to blame Poles for the
52:09crime at...on whose orders?
52:11>> I don't know that. We can only guess. I
52:15will not, right, I am talking about
52:17individuals. I don't really know that
52:19circle. It is also interesting that
52:22this is a person who still gives
52:24interviews and still repeats his
52:25version of events.
52:26>> Yes. And generally, we have already
52:31discussed the archaeological sources in
52:33Professor Cola's report, which he
52:35submitted after the research was
52:37completed. That information is
52:41absolutely there. So, it's not like
52:45this is my invention after 20 years;
52:47this information in the professor's
52:49report is as much as possible described
52:55, right? The whole situation regarding
53:00the grave inside the barn, and the
53:02remains of, well, the Lenin monument
53:04that we found right next to those
53:06remains. So, this is not suddenly my
53:13revelation in 2019; it is absolutely
53:16the version we discovered in 2001, and
53:18we provided those sources, right?
53:23However, the verification of written
53:26sources must be done anew,
53:28>> but not by Mr. Tomasz Gross. It is
53:32always like that; I know the work of
53:34archivists dealing with the Middle Ages
53:36and modern times. At least two people
53:40always read them. Everyone interprets
53:45Old German, Latin, or Old Polish
53:47differently. They verify their versions
53:53to see if they align with what they
53:55managed to read in those sources, and
53:57only then is it the official version.
54:01>> But here, we only have the version from
54:04Tomasz Gross, no other historian. And
54:06on top of that, Tomasz Gross is not
54:08even a historian.
54:10>> Let's try to answer the question of who
54:12might have commissioned Jan Tomasz
54:14Gross. Perhaps through the deduction of
54:18facts
54:19>> well, I think Jewish circles, and in
54:22this context, we can say something more
54:24. What specific difficulties did your
54:27team encounter that made you unwelcome
54:30guests? I think they tried a bit to
54:35discourage us so that we would leave,
54:37but we dug in our heels because when we
54:39started listening, especially my young
54:41students, when they heard the version
54:43that Poles created the Holocaust, we
54:45were outraged. In general, did Poles
54:51really not die on Polish soil, because
54:53where are our Home Army soldiers? Where
54:56are all those who fought for Poland's
54:58freedom? Where are all those who fought
55:02in '39 and then later as partisans? We
55:07were well-educated people. And at that
55:11moment, we realized something was wrong
55:13, something was not right here,
55:15something strange was happening. And at
55:18some point, we heard that, actually,
55:20Poles, our ancestors, were the creators
55:23of the Holocaust. So we decided that we
55:28were staying until the end, and no
55:30matter how many times a day they
55:31interrupted our work, we would try to
55:33uncover what this land actually hides.
55:40And that is why we stayed until the end
55:42of the work, because otherwise, I think
55:44that if we had left in the middle,
55:46discouraged that they weren't letting
55:48us work, it would absolutely have
55:50seemed as if archaeologists had
55:51confirmed Tomasz Gross's version. And
55:58at one point, it dawned on us that we
56:00were probably there just to confirm
56:02Tomasz Gross's version. And from the
56:06very first spade, Tomasz Gross's
56:08version was not being confirmed for us.
56:10>> Well, you also said these significant
56:12words, that many people were deciding
56:14on this, but not many from Poland. But
56:19perhaps it was also just a standard
56:21procedure, which, as reports from those
56:23who oversaw the exhumation suggest,
56:25might have actually stemmed from
56:27respecting the dignity of the victims.
56:32How likely could that be? No, because
56:38when we arrive, everything is
56:39camouflaged, we are practically
56:41surrounded, because in reality, a space
56:44was designated, the barn was covered up
56:46, scaffolding was erected, the walls
56:49were hidden, a complete mystification,
56:56right, camouflage nets, and on top of
56:59that, us arriving for our
57:00archaeological research, showing our
57:02passes every single day. Prawca lost
57:06his pass, an hour of phone calls to
57:09Warsaw, to Schudrich, and finally, we
57:11found his pass in the car. And after an
57:15hour, at the same time, information
57:17came that okay, the professor can be
57:19let in for his own research, for which
57:21he was the lead. Well, that is where
57:24one probably has to start wondering,
57:26right? Because either we are pawns
57:30meant to confirm what was established
57:32beforehand, or we are conducting normal
57:34research. So, despite everything,
57:39despite all the difficulties, we tried
57:41to conduct the research as it should be
57:43done. Yes. Did you never receive
57:47information on who granted permission
57:49for your exhumation to be controlled by
57:51representatives of Jewish communities?
57:54Because it sounds improbable that it
57:56was, that it was fenced off by Jewish
57:58representatives,
57:59>> that that the police were there,
58:01>> yes,
58:03>> acting under the decision's oversight.
58:06Well yes, but who at that time was
58:08acting there under the decision's
58:10oversight
58:10>> well, representatives of Jewish
58:12communities. Well, that sounds like a
58:14total abstraction, which, well, I am
58:16not even able to imagine that the
58:18Polish state could
58:19>> accept something like that, right, on
58:21Polish territory. Mhm.
58:23>> on Polish territory, so for us it was
58:25just some total science fiction. We
58:28absolutely did not believe it, because
58:30it was like, I wonder how long this
58:32circus will last. Only at the beginning
58:35, we didn't really know what it was
58:36about. Yes. But at the moment they
58:41started trying to convince us that
58:43Poles were the instigators of the
58:45Holocaust, red lights went on for us,
58:47for everyone. Regardless of how old
58:51they were, whether 20, 40, or 60.
58:56>> We simply all concluded that there was
58:58a hidden agenda to this. And it turned
59:00out there was.
59:01>> Mhm. Jarosław Kaczyński said in 2022
59:07about the Katyn massacre that we must
59:09forget and forgive. Hmm, so I wonder
59:15why this exhumation in Jedwabne is so
59:18important for the history of Poland.
59:23>> For the history of Poland, not just for
59:25Jewish reparations. For the history of
59:28Poland, we know, yes, most Poles who
59:30are in contact with us know how it
59:32happened. I hope that some of you will
59:36read our memories, my memories from the
59:38Katyn exhumations, from the exhumations
59:40in Jedwabne. However, at this point, if
59:50someone decides that we actually
59:52murdered Jews in mass, right, and we
59:58will have to pay, right, reparations
1:00:01>> for the Holocaust. Poland, which
1:00:05suffered, for which Poles are being
1:00:08blamed for Nazi crimes. It seems to me
1:00:12that from Jedwabne, y Jews want to
1:00:18create a symbol of the Polish Holocaust
1:00:20. "Oh, look, it was like that
1:00:24everywhere," but you only need to go to
1:00:27Jedwabne and there is the basis, to say
1:00:32that it was the Poles who killed the
1:00:34Jews. Mhm.
1:00:36>> Well, ladies and gentlemen, you could
1:00:39reverse the matter in the camps, in
1:00:41Auschwitz, in Belzec, in Sobibor, and
1:00:43many others. The Kapos and the groups
1:00:50that drove people into the gas chambers
1:00:52were also Jews. After all, the Germans
1:00:57worked through the hands of Jews. Yes.
1:01:00The entire service in the camps was
1:01:02carried out by the hands of Jews. Why
1:01:07did the Jewish Sonderkommando strike,
1:01:09right, in Auschwitz, because they no
1:01:12longer wanted to throw their, y, loved
1:01:14ones into the chambers. I know such a
1:01:20story, by the way, when I was digging
1:01:22in Brzezinka, I read all the memories
1:01:24of people who survived Auschwitz. I met
1:01:30Mrs. Helena Bilm, who told me her life
1:01:32story from the Warsaw Ghetto to
1:01:34Bergen-Belsen to May 2nd. She was also
1:01:38in Auschwitz. Yyy, and the situation
1:01:43was such that simply those who rebelled
1:01:45, that they would no longer, right, y,
1:01:48drive those, y, Jews who were brought
1:01:50to Auschwitz into the Jewish chamber,
1:01:52it was on the principle: if you don't
1:01:55do it, you'll be the first to end up
1:01:57there. Yes. They ended up in those
1:02:01chambers anyway. Tell your mother. And
1:02:03I, yy, experienced a shock, but then I
1:02:05realized that, tell your mother to
1:02:07stand as close to the opening as
1:02:09possible, simply so she dies faster
1:02:12>> and not in agony.
1:02:15>> It is a brutal truth, but it is the
1:02:17truth. And ladies and gentlemen, in all
1:02:25the camps, they used those very Jewish
1:02:27groups, which were actually
1:02:28well-trained, to drive everyone into
1:02:30the chambers. And who was supposed to
1:02:36do it? They drove Poles too, after all.
1:02:41Let us not forget that Poles perished
1:02:43in all the camps. A significant book
1:02:48for me, when it comes to memories from
1:02:51Auschwitz, is the book by Zofia Kossak,
1:02:53which, among other books and memoirs
1:02:55about Auschwitz, I read repeatedly, but
1:02:58I read Zofia Kossak's book twice. By
1:03:03the way, I found there the information
1:03:05I was looking for regarding Auschwitz.
1:03:08Zofia Kossak was aware of why she was
1:03:11being taken to Auschwitz. Why did she
1:03:13end up there? Because she was going to
1:03:15Auschwitz to the camps, because she
1:03:17worked in the resistance movement. On
1:03:21the other hand, women who were pulled
1:03:22from somewhere because they brought
1:03:24eggs to Warsaw could not understand why
1:03:26they were being taken to some camp or
1:03:28outside the area where they lived, when
1:03:30they had only brought food to Warsaw.
1:03:37So, uh, here, understanding all these
1:03:39matters of war-related narratives and
1:03:41how, uh, these things happened, it
1:03:43really is a vast amount of knowledge,
1:03:46and to understand what happened in
1:03:48Jedwabne, one must also have that other
1:03:50knowledge, as well as how the Gestapo
1:03:53operated. They had incredibly highly
1:04:00educated people there who could
1:04:02manipulate others at any given moment,
1:04:04and regardless, if we start dealing
1:04:06with these matters, we should first
1:04:08start with, for example, how many
1:04:10psychiatrists and psychologists were in
1:04:12the Gestapo, well-educated professors,
1:04:14just to mention a small detail like
1:04:16that. Not just any soldier ended up in
1:04:23the Gestapo. A boss projected by a boss
1:04:28. That is the truth.
1:04:29>> In that case, I cannot understand one
1:04:32thing. If this is a brutal truth for
1:04:36which there is irrefutable evidence in
1:04:38the form of an investigation, in the
1:04:40form of exhumations, tangible physical
1:04:42evidence, but also first-hand accounts,
1:04:45then why can't millions of Poles learn
1:04:47about it? Why won't the IPN resume the
1:04:52exhumations in Jedwabne? Why are the
1:04:55biggest mainstream media outlets silent
1:04:57? Why are politicians silent? Why don't
1:05:01you get invitations to the media, to
1:05:03podcasts? Am I
1:05:05>> old and ugly? No, but, but seriously,
1:05:07but speaking seriously, because this is
1:05:09also a serious topic, where if, if you
1:05:11were the manager,
1:05:12>> No, I was not the manager; Professor
1:05:14Kola was the manager.
1:05:15>> But formally you were the manager,
1:05:17where you had a team on-site under you
1:05:19that you directed. So if this is
1:05:21irrefutable evidence, why is the world
1:05:23silent?
1:05:25>> We know that in history, right,
1:05:27throughout our whole world, irrefutable
1:05:29evidence can always be refuted. There
1:05:33will always be some crackpots who claim
1:05:35it was otherwise. There is always an
1:05:40ulterior motive that should eventually
1:05:42surface, because someone is simply
1:05:43counting on benefits, and really, when
1:05:45you don't know what it's about, it's
1:05:47about money.
1:05:49>> So it is not a question of the truth
1:05:51and refuting that truth, but rather
1:05:52that someone might not benefit from
1:05:54that truth coming out. And that, it
1:05:56seems to me, is the most difficult
1:05:58thing to understand. Yes, that’s what
1:06:00I think. However, uh, the
1:06:03archaeological research, those
1:06:05conducted by us, are irrefutable. The
1:06:10professor's report was written after
1:06:11the research was completed. It was not
1:06:16disclosed, because everyone who was
1:06:18there signed a commitment that they
1:06:20would not reveal the truth about what
1:06:22we found, and indeed they did not
1:06:23disclose it. I am the only person who
1:06:28has revealed it. The professor is no
1:06:30longer alive. However, I revealed this
1:06:32truth once the investigation was
1:06:34concluded.
1:06:36>> I did not reveal it while it was
1:06:38ongoing, even though I did not sign a
1:06:40commitment.
1:06:40>> I can understand that the media might
1:06:42be silent, politicians might be silent,
1:06:45but what does the IPN say about this
1:06:48matter? Does that mean they consider
1:06:50your evidence unreliable?
1:06:52>> It seems to me that they do.
1:06:53>> Did you receive an official response
1:06:55from them on this matter? I wasn't just
1:06:57there for talks; I presented my version
1:06:59, we said goodbye, and that was it.
1:07:03>> And what is the likelihood that Poles
1:07:05will live to see the truth? I mean, how
1:07:07likely is it that the exhumations in
1:07:10Jedwabne will ever be resumed?
1:07:13>> We waited a really long time for the
1:07:15truth about Katyn, but in the end, we
1:07:17can speak about it openly now, right?
1:07:20We know something about that. I hope
1:07:23that the same thing will happen with
1:07:25the truth about Jedwabne. More and more
1:07:28people are talking about it, more and
1:07:30more people know about it. It’s the
1:07:32same as Volhynia, right? And one after
1:07:35another, many other things that
1:07:37happened. I dream that one day, when I
1:07:43have more time, I will describe the
1:07:45memoirs of Home Army soldiers who
1:07:47returned on foot from the Soviet Union
1:07:50over several years; I knew many such
1:07:52people, after all. Unfortunately, they
1:07:58are long gone, but as a first-year
1:08:00student, I met a group, who were
1:08:06involved in the charge on Vilnius, and
1:08:08then they turned themselves in, right,
1:08:10when the Soviet Union promised they
1:08:12wouldn't kill or deport anyone, right?
1:08:15Well, they did deport them; they didn't
1:08:17lose their lives, but they sent them to
1:08:19camps. They were returning to Poland on
1:08:22foot in the 1950s. Many died, but some
1:08:26survived, and I met those Home Army
1:08:28soldiers in '79 and '80. And they told
1:08:34me their life stories. Every year when
1:08:38we met at the lake, someone was always
1:08:40missing. Yes, but because of all those
1:08:43events, I didn't know back then that I
1:08:45would be working on the Second World
1:08:48War, not the early Middle Ages—
1:08:50underwater, yes, but not the world war.
1:08:53But, ladies and gentlemen, gathering
1:08:55all this information gives us a basis
1:08:57to talk about a completely different
1:08:59history of Poland, right? About that
1:09:02brutal history that the Soviet Union
1:09:04and Germany inflicted upon us. And now,
1:09:12some people—whose nations also died
1:09:14during World War II, we were just as
1:09:16tortured and killed, all our ancestors
1:09:19were victims of this war—are now
1:09:21trying to convince us that Poles were
1:09:23the executioners. Yes. And that is
1:09:35probably the worst thing they are
1:09:37trying to force us to believe right now
1:09:39, because if Jedwabne becomes a symbol
1:09:41of a "Polish Holocaust," then we are
1:09:43effectively admitting that we did
1:09:44nothing else but murder during World
1:09:46War II. So who fought in that
1:09:52underground at all?
1:09:53>> Well, not the Jews. Some died in the
1:09:57Katyn affair because they were officers
1:09:59, too. But they all lie in Katyn, right
1:10:02? Kharkiv and Mednoye. So let us open
1:10:05another door to that different history
1:10:07of Poland from World War II. You
1:10:11participated in the exhumations of the
1:10:141940 Katyn massacre in Kharkiv, where
1:10:16over 20,000 Polish officers and members
1:10:18of the Polish elite were murdered. Did
1:10:24you find evidence there that casts
1:10:26doubt on the official version of these
1:10:28events? The situation was that an
1:10:32investigation was being conducted by
1:10:34Prosecutor Śnieżka, and practically,
1:10:42for this investigation to be completed,
1:10:44it was necessary to carry out
1:10:46exhumations with the hope of finding
1:10:48evidence that this happened while still
1:10:50on Soviet territory not occupied by the
1:10:52Germans. Therefore, the Toruń team,
1:10:58led by Professor Cola, went to Kharkiv.
1:11:03We had already seen Professor Andrzej
1:11:05Nadolski’s initial preliminary
1:11:07research in '91. His father had died
1:11:10right there in Kharkiv. That’s how we
1:11:15managed to arrange those first searches
1:11:17in Kharkiv, and the professor went
1:11:19there with the Łódź team because he
1:11:21was the head of the Polish Academy of
1:11:23Sciences in Łódź, and we already
1:11:25knew we would be working in wet graves.
1:11:31Since they were wet graves, there was
1:11:33hope we would have quite a lot of
1:11:35organic material, that is, wood,
1:11:37leather, fabric, and we were counting
1:11:39on paper. And at that time, these were
1:11:45highly educated people, so it was clear
1:11:47that there was no problem with writing
1:11:49and documents. Everything we found, we
1:11:55extracted from the death pits, cleaned,
1:11:57and searched for names, inscriptions,
1:11:59and travel routes from the area here
1:12:01from September 17th to the journey to
1:12:04Starobelsk, because we were
1:12:05reconstructing the journey to
1:12:07Starobelsk. And the biggest problem was
1:12:14that we didn't have documents for the
1:12:174,000, for the more than 4,000 people
1:12:19who died in Kharkiv; we have one
1:12:21military ID book. Then we found one
1:12:27diary belonging to Second Lieutenant
1:12:29Alojzy Babiński, which described every
1:12:31day from the moment of mobilization.
1:12:35>> Are you talking about that diary you
1:12:37described in your book, the one that
1:12:39was sewn into his uniform?
1:12:40>> Yes. Yes. And this is our only such
1:12:43diary that describes every day in the
1:12:45camp. Alojzy Babiński was one of the
1:12:50first to leave Starobelsk for Kharkiv,
1:12:52and the situation was such that he
1:12:54really described his days in two
1:12:56sentences each; we didn't have any more
1:12:58room in the book, but we have all the
1:13:00pages photographed, from which we
1:13:02managed to...ladies and gentlemen...
1:13:07>> Could you tell us what was in that
1:13:09diary, how did he describe each day
1:13:11after he was mobilized? During the
1:13:15September campaign, in the Katowice
1:13:17region, they were moving east. There is
1:13:22a note, for example, that they captured
1:13:25a German tank, then that September 17th
1:13:27, captivity, and every day of the
1:13:29journey in October, until mid-October,
1:13:32to Starobelsk. And there he described
1:13:36every day, noting that they only
1:13:37received permission in November to
1:13:39write postcards to their families. But
1:13:42there were no stamps, so they couldn't
1:13:44be sent; he noted that it was forbidden
1:13:47, what the temperature was every day,
1:13:49right? And what the weather was like,
1:13:53whether he was sick or not, whether he
1:13:56went to work or not, and that Holy Mass
1:13:58and confession were forbidden. you
1:14:02would get in trouble for that or end up
1:14:04in solitary confinement, but he wrote
1:14:06about Father Aleksandrowicz. Father
1:14:08Aleksandrowicz celebrated this mass in
1:14:11secret. He wrote about his friend
1:14:14Stanislaw, whom Berling unfortunately
1:14:16recruited into a 400-person team of
1:14:18informers. They all perished in Kharkiv
1:14:22as well. Berling survived and became a
1:14:24general. Yes, but Berling had already
1:14:28been removed from the army in '36
1:14:30because, although his cooperation with
1:14:33the Soviet Union wasn't proven, he was
1:14:35suspected of being a Soviet agent, so
1:14:37he was retired early. During
1:14:45mobilization, men of military age were
1:14:47called up, so he ended up in Starobelsk
1:14:50with the army. And there, he continued
1:14:56his activities, cooperating with the
1:14:58Soviet Union, and from there, he later
1:15:01organized the Polish army on the Oka;
1:15:03and all those days, like how they were
1:15:05searched, how it went, if they could
1:15:07make repairs—like, for example, he
1:15:10waited two weeks for a shoe repair,
1:15:12right? he already had leather, he had
1:15:16bought leather, but the greatest wealth
1:15:18was actually snuff, because with money
1:15:20you couldn't buy anything, but with
1:15:22snuff, you could trade. Yes, cigarette
1:15:27papers were the main source of paper.
1:15:31Unless they had something hidden in
1:15:32their pockets. they realized, that they
1:15:40likely wouldn't return home, so they
1:15:42stitched notes with addresses of whom
1:15:44to notify in Poland. They hoped someone
1:15:49would find them, and we did.
1:15:50>> So they were already reconciled with
1:15:52death.
1:15:53>> And what did the last note on the last
1:15:55day say? Does that mean these people
1:15:57knew toward the end that they were
1:15:59going to their deaths, that they would
1:16:00perish? Uh, I think they were obviously
1:16:03told they were being transferred to
1:16:05other camps. There were various
1:16:09vaccinations, but some realized these
1:16:11were likely vain hopes. And in fact,
1:16:15the last entry was at 6:00 PM, meaning
1:16:18that after they were put on a train in
1:16:20Starobelsk in the morning, at 6:00 PM
1:16:27and he managed to hide this diary
1:16:29inside his wool military overcoat, and
1:16:31thanks to that, we found it. On three
1:16:40individuals, we found documents simply
1:16:42sewn into those linen pouches or pinned
1:16:44with a safety pin in the sleeve,
1:16:46including, for example, elementary
1:16:48school certificates. They were from the
1:16:54time of the partitions in four
1:16:56languages, so those certificates are in
1:16:58four languages. But the majority, if
1:17:03they were sewing information into their
1:17:05uniforms, it means they realized they
1:17:07might not survive
1:17:12>> that they would lose their lives there.
1:17:19Besides, the Soviet Union did not sign
1:17:22the Geneva Convention, and as
1:17:24professional soldiers—officers, after
1:17:26all—they knew; the entire main staff
1:17:29died in Kharkiv—so they absolutely
1:17:31knew what awaited them because,
1:17:33generally, they were treated like mere
1:17:35criminals, not prisoners of war. These
1:17:43weren't prisoner-of-war camps, like the
1:17:45German ones as we understand them. You
1:17:48could just as well treat this as a
1:17:50labor camp, really,
1:17:52>> only heavily isolated from everything,
1:17:54so there would be no trace of the Poles
1:17:56left. That is why when they were thrown
1:17:59into death pits, their belongings were
1:18:01burned after them. And this is also
1:18:05interesting, because you and your team
1:18:07deciphered about 2,000 different, uh,
1:18:09notes
1:18:10>> that, uh, these people, uh, left behind
1:18:13for their children. What else exactly
1:18:17did they write there? Generally, yes,
1:18:20they drew, wrote poems, they created
1:18:28lists of officer barracks, for example
1:18:30the captain's barrack, where there was
1:18:32the first name, last name, father's
1:18:34name, right? and when he was mobilized,
1:18:43what he did, whether he was sick,
1:18:45whether he was going to work, all such
1:18:47daily information. And I remember most
1:18:51the search for a name where we only
1:18:53read the ending of the name "Zek" and
1:18:58we spent nights then checking all the
1:19:00lists, both the Russian ones and those
1:19:06of the Katyń families. And we found it
1:19:08to be the name Wormuzek.
1:19:14>> And that is how we searched for people
1:19:16who in some way, right, were written
1:19:18down in those notebooks, and thanks to
1:19:20that, we also verified the Soviet lists
1:19:22. Over 32 names were not on any lists,
1:19:30but we read them on the little slips of
1:19:32paper. Uh, all our anthropologists at
1:19:36all the sites in Katyń, in Kharkiv, in
1:19:39Mednoye said that there are always
1:19:41about 400 people who, uh, do not, uh,
1:19:44exist on the lists and that there are
1:19:46more of them than the, uh, those famed
1:19:494,000. Actually, we had hoped all along
1:19:54that someday we would manage to reach
1:19:56the personnel files of our officers.
1:20:00But now, 85 years after this crime, yes
1:20:03, we have reached the information. I
1:20:10collaborated last year with professors
1:20:12from Kharkiv, and our historians hadn't
1:20:14managed to reach this information, but
1:20:16they found in the archive in Kharkiv
1:20:18information, written sources stating
1:20:20that in July and then in November, the
1:20:22camps where our officers were held were
1:20:24being cleared. And what did this "
1:20:30clearing" consist of? Uh, well, there
1:20:34was an order to destroy all papers
1:20:36concerning the fact that Polish
1:20:37officers were held there. We found
1:20:42information that, uh, in Starobelsk,
1:20:454,005 files of Polish officers were
1:20:47destroyed, so our hopes of finding any
1:20:50files at all are in vain. They also
1:20:55destroyed at that time, in July, all
1:20:56the letters and information that had
1:20:58arrived from families to the camp even
1:21:01when they were no longer in the camp.
1:21:04And a second such operation was carried
1:21:06out in the same way in November. And
1:21:09what turned out to be the case? In all
1:21:12the camps where Polish officers were
1:21:14held, they did the same thing. So, uh,
1:21:18the fact that we counted on maybe
1:21:20finding those documents in Moscow
1:21:22someday, we won't find them. They
1:21:25burned back in 1940.
1:21:27>> Mhm. And if you were unable to access
1:21:32the personnel files of the people who
1:21:34perished there, were you able to reach
1:21:36the families or children of any of
1:21:38these people using those scraps of
1:21:39information, those over 2,000 fragments
1:21:42, and pass this information on? One of
1:21:48the ladies, we found her watch at home.
1:21:51I don't recall the name right now, but
1:21:56we immediately reported it to Poland,
1:21:59our editor from "Nowości" in Toruń
1:22:01started looking for any living
1:22:03relatives, and he found the widow in a
1:22:05nursing home, and she
1:22:08>> and she found out that her husband had
1:22:10died in the East. She had no
1:22:12information, no letter, no postcard had
1:22:14arrived. Moreover, Pabiński writes
1:22:19about the fact that there was quite
1:22:21strict censorship. They always wrote
1:22:23that they felt great. He didn't have a
1:22:25leg. His wound was bleeding like that.
1:22:27One of them almost had gangrene, but he
1:22:29wrote home that he felt great.
1:22:30Everything is fine. How are things with
1:22:33you, Halcia or, um, Tereska. So if he
1:22:36wanted to smuggle any other information
1:22:38, these postcards were absolutely not
1:22:40sent to the families. But as in any
1:22:44prison, there is always a way to
1:22:46secretly pass information to the
1:22:48families. So the bribery of those who
1:22:52guarded them was quite significant,
1:22:54because letters on cigarette paper
1:22:56arrived, and we received those
1:22:58cigarette papers, and they are also in
1:23:00the Katyn Museum—the ones that
1:23:01reached Poland.
1:23:05>> Letters on cigarette paper.
1:23:07>> So, Poles are resourceful, right? Even
1:23:13those notes sewn into uniforms, that
1:23:15was also another thing, where they
1:23:17realized that perhaps they would die,
1:23:19that perhaps this trace would be found.
1:23:26I don't know if I would have thought of
1:23:28that while being in such danger, but
1:23:29they were a bit bored there. They tried
1:23:34very hard to eliminate everything. If
1:23:37they gave any lectures, for example on
1:23:39agriculture, zootechnics, or anything
1:23:41else, it was forbidden; you would go to
1:23:44solitary confinement for that. If there
1:23:48were any lectures, they would take away
1:23:49their chess sets, which they made, 9 by
1:23:579 cm, beautifully carved pieces that
1:23:59you would plug into holes; all of that
1:24:01was absolutely taken away during
1:24:04searches. It was simply about breaking
1:24:10the morale of the Polish officer, and
1:24:12not entirely—well, of course the
1:24:14gentlemen argued, when 300 were sitting
1:24:17there in one room on six-tier bunks,
1:24:19right? It's impossible for there not to
1:24:22be a conflict.
1:24:23>> It is, well, people are people, right?
1:24:26>> Exactly. And how did you come up with
1:24:28that? I mean, because it wasn't that
1:24:30obvious that there is no information
1:24:31left by those people who were going to
1:24:33their deaths, that there is no word for
1:24:35the wives, families, and children.
1:24:38>> I knew that our entire staff had
1:24:40perished in Kharkiv. Writers, everyone,
1:24:44it's possible, and well, they were
1:24:47searching. We knew they kept searching
1:24:50them, but I dreamt that we should rip
1:24:51open the uniforms. The professor didn't
1:24:58agree, because they kept trying to kick
1:25:01us out, but my colleagues, after eight
1:25:03hours of work, all my students worked
1:25:05overtime and brought all the uniforms
1:25:07to that moldy NKVD sanatorium, and we
1:25:09ripped them open at night. So, no one
1:25:17came up with the idea of ripping open
1:25:19the uniforms based on evidence, you
1:25:21just dreamt it? I dreamt it. I maintain
1:25:25that they told me I should do it.
1:25:26>> Aha. Well, no, I talked to them a lot
1:25:30there online. Anyway, certain things
1:25:35just come to you, it stems from the
1:25:37subconscious when you're thinking in a
1:25:39specific place, you pick up some sort
1:25:41of...well...
1:25:44>> I was in Poland back then, while you
1:25:46were...
1:25:48>> Absolutely in Poland, and generally, we
1:25:50were constantly up to date because a
1:25:53team arrived every month, which we
1:25:55swapped out, right? We sent the next
1:26:01one, took and secured everything they
1:26:03recovered, and still, there were so few
1:26:06documents, so few, and we just kept
1:26:08thinking it was impossible that those
1:26:10documents didn't exist. And, well, in
1:26:16that last month, when I was finally
1:26:18able to go, that's when...we ripped
1:26:23open those uniforms, and thanks to that
1:26:25, we managed to find so much
1:26:27information, and it was quite a lot
1:26:29anyway. Babiński writes, for example,
1:26:33in his diary in January, that 13 new
1:26:36officers were brought to the camp. We
1:26:39found a piece of tissue paper with 13
1:26:42lieutenant colonels by name and surname
1:26:44. They weren't on any lists, so they
1:26:47must have been transferred from another
1:26:49camp or prison. We estimate that those
1:26:54400 people who were always in excess at
1:26:56these sites were brought in from
1:26:58prisons or some other detention centers
1:27:00. And it seems to us that, for instance
1:27:04, those 13 lieutenant colonels could
1:27:05have been on that extra list, because
1:27:07they weren't on the official ones.
1:27:09>> And you also said that the Soviets
1:27:11murdered in a way to leave no trace,
1:27:13doing...well, just like the Nazis, a
1:27:15perfect investigation. I don't know if
1:27:17there were psychologists or
1:27:18psychiatrists there who oversaw that.
1:27:20process. But how did you come across
1:27:23that information? Under what
1:27:24circumstances did these people die?
1:27:30Honestly, we talked a bit with the
1:27:32locals, with older people, but there
1:27:34were skulls that had no bullet holes—
1:27:37usually it was one hole, right,
1:27:39sometimes three or four, but some
1:27:41didn't have any, so maybe it was a
1:27:43trauma, hit by something, stunned. Well
1:27:48, it happened in various ways,
1:27:50>> because based on the official
1:27:51investigation, death occurred by a shot
1:27:53to the back of the head. However,
1:27:58talking to old Soviet soldiers, we
1:28:00learned that they had achieved mastery
1:28:02in executions, and it turned out this
1:28:04was the case everywhere; once we
1:28:06learned about it, all the
1:28:07anthropologists looked for it at every
1:28:09site. Simply put, when they shot with a
1:28:15pistol, they aimed here at the cervical
1:28:17vertebrae, the third or fourth, or
1:28:19fourth or fifth. And if hit like that,
1:28:25the bullet would exit through the mouth
1:28:27or eye socket, so there was no hole
1:28:28through the skull, but the bullet left
1:28:30a mark on the vertebrae. And our
1:28:35anthropologists were looking for
1:28:37exactly such traces. And they were
1:28:42finding them,
1:28:44>> so we immediately passed this
1:28:45information on, so mastery had been
1:28:47achieved.
1:28:50>> For what purpose did they aim to
1:28:52achieve such mastery, so there would be
1:28:54no trace left of
1:28:58>> Maybe they treated it like a sport? I
1:28:59have, I have no earthly idea,
1:29:04>> what drove them, but if such perfection
1:29:06was reached in killing people, I think
1:29:08it wasn't just done to Polish officers,
1:29:11but to many other prisoners. After all,
1:29:15during the Stalinist period, over 40
1:29:17million people were finished off, right
1:29:20, within the Soviet Union. The number
1:29:24of our victims was really small
1:29:26compared to all the rest, but Bykovnya
1:29:28is such a vast area where from 1937 to
1:29:361956, over 100,000 people died there,
1:29:39and ours were buried deep in nearly
1:29:41two-meter pits because their traces
1:29:44were meant to disappear, but the
1:29:46so-called "rus" of course brought death
1:29:49. Uh, but many Poles also died before
1:29:53and after the war. These were shallow,
1:29:58uh, graves, which we even called naked
1:30:00graves, because in shallow graves the
1:30:03fabrics decomposed, perhaps they were
1:30:05only thrown in wearing shirts. In any
1:30:09case, they had nothing on them, and the
1:30:11skeletons were naked, so it was hard to
1:30:14determine who they might be. However,
1:30:18those were shallow graves, and when it
1:30:20rained well there, the rain would wash
1:30:22away the soil. We thought at first that
1:30:26they were stones, but they were skulls.
1:30:30When it rained really hard, a skull
1:30:32would simply appear. Children there
1:30:35played soccer with those skulls. Uh, in
1:30:38various ways they...That whole forest
1:30:41park area was just one big grave.
1:30:45>> They played, children played soccer
1:30:47with skulls?
1:30:47>> Yes.
1:30:48>> Poles? No, ours happened to be buried
1:30:52too deeply. All those who were shallow,
1:30:55and as the earth revealed skulls after
1:30:57such heavy rain, when that forest soil
1:30:59was washed away.
1:31:02>> It is hard to say. Whether they were
1:31:06Russians, Italians, French, everyone
1:31:08just perished there who, so to speak,
1:31:10was inconvenient or who was accused of
1:31:13anything, right? because they
1:31:17fabricated charges equally, so people
1:31:19just played there with human skulls.
1:31:22>> Opening successive doors, Professor,
1:31:24Polish media, but also Polish
1:31:26authorities, are talking about a
1:31:28breakthrough. Ukrainian authorities
1:31:30have granted permission for a partial
1:31:32exhumation in Volhynia. Is this a
1:31:36breakthrough for Polish-Ukrainian
1:31:38relations? It is hard for me to say,
1:31:42because there are ups and downs in this
1:31:44matter, as in any such tragic case. And
1:31:50here, it really is unclear how we will
1:31:52talk about this next year. One thing is
1:31:56certain: there is a monument to the
1:31:58Katyn victims in the area of Volhynia,
1:32:03on Polish territory. A great many
1:32:05people meet there. I am proud that
1:32:09young people are there too, that
1:32:10parents come with their children, that
1:32:12this matter is discussed, and I think
1:32:14that is most important. However, as to
1:32:18how the fate of the victims of Volhynia
1:32:23and the exhumations will unfold, I do
1:32:25not know. I only know that when the IPN
1:32:30was conducting research there, the team
1:32:32didn't even return for Easter, but
1:32:34worked the whole time to do as much as
1:32:36possible. So if there is such an
1:32:41opportunity, these people are simply
1:32:43giving up their free time, time they
1:32:45should be spending with their families.
1:32:48They dedicate it to this research, to
1:32:50revealing the truth. To what percentage
1:32:55we will reveal it, no one really knows,
1:32:58because we don't truly know how many
1:33:00people died in Volhynia; some say
1:33:03120,000, but others say 200,000. I know
1:33:10that families are still reporting
1:33:12victims from this Volhynian affair, so
1:33:14it is a very evolving issue on the
1:33:16Polish side. However, how the Polish
1:33:22authorities—and here implemented by
1:33:24the IPN, of course, but with the
1:33:26consent of our government—how this
1:33:30will proceed, it is hard for me to say.
1:33:34It also depends heavily on the war in
1:33:36Ukraine, on contacts with the Ukrainian
1:33:38authorities, right?
1:33:41>> But also in which direction will this
1:33:43go, which way? Will these be partial
1:33:45exhumations, or will they be full
1:33:47exhumations? Poland might ask: should
1:33:49Poland treat this as a matter of course
1:33:51or as a gift from the Ukrainians? But
1:33:54it also depends on who is actually
1:33:56conducting these exhumations and why
1:33:58Polish archaeologists have lodged a
1:34:00protest. The situation is such that
1:34:03suddenly the supervisors of the
1:34:05exhumations, the ones leading the
1:34:07process, are to be Ukrainians. And so
1:34:11what? And again, the IPN will be a
1:34:16subcontractor—just as we were
1:34:18supposed to conduct research in
1:34:19Jedwabne, but couldn't—because this
1:34:22is starting to resemble a scenario
1:34:24where we will suddenly be supervised by
1:34:26Ukrainian archaeologists whom we taught
1:34:28how to do these exhumations. Because
1:34:34when exhumations were being conducted,
1:34:36for example in Kyiv at Bykivnia,
1:34:38Ukrainians worked with us, learning how
1:34:40to perform these exhumations, right?
1:34:46And they do not have—honestly, I
1:34:48haven't heard of Ukrainian
1:34:50archaeologists working on such
1:34:52exhumations as the ones we worked on.
1:34:58So these will be exhumations carried
1:35:00out in a sloppy manner,
1:35:04>> so then we can talk about partial ones
1:35:06and, furthermore, whether Polish
1:35:08archaeologists will be allowed access
1:35:10to all of them. For example, will we
1:35:14receive information that the
1:35:16exhumations were conducted by Ukrainian
1:35:18archaeologists, that so and so many
1:35:20victims were recovered, and what
1:35:22certainty do we have that these are all
1:35:24the victims from a given si
1:35:26>> will we even be able to count on an
1:35:28independent, first and foremost,
1:35:29investigation and exhumations? Well,
1:35:33the only, the only solution is
1:35:35independent exhumations. Yes, there can
1:35:38be oversight, but oversight that will
1:35:40not interfere with the exhumations. Yes
1:35:43.
1:35:46>> So it is starting to get a bit
1:35:48dangerous here, which is why about 30
1:35:50private Polish companies have filed a
1:35:52protest on this matter. However, it
1:35:59absolutely should be supervised by the
1:36:01IPN, which keeps a full record of all
1:36:03this. There are really well-educated
1:36:07people in that field there. Of course,
1:36:11they need help, but the ones in charge
1:36:13should be people who have long been
1:36:15conducting these exhumations and who
1:36:17are, well, there is a dedicated unit in
1:36:20the IPN, right, of archaeologists who
1:36:22also conduct exhumations in Poland and
1:36:24in Lithuania. So here, those in
1:36:28Volhynia, which were conducted even
1:36:30before COVID, well, they should
1:36:32continue to be pursued. Well, there are
1:36:35places where people say, for example,
1:36:37that in one village there are three
1:36:39graves, not just one.
1:36:42>> So, in these searches, all of this is
1:36:45actually ahead of us.
1:36:48>> It is just a matter of government talks
1:36:50. And for what reason do you think the
1:36:54Ukrainians have been trying to block
1:36:56exhumations in Ukraine for years?
1:37:00>> Well, it seems to me that this problem,
1:37:02just like when we were in Kharkiv,
1:37:04where we were allowed to conduct those
1:37:06exhumations, but they constantly wanted
1:37:08to kick us out and speed us up so we
1:37:10would finish. I think that Ukrainians
1:37:17expected that just as it was with the
1:37:19Katyn case, soon there would be the
1:37:21Volhynia case. I think that people who
1:37:25think reasonably about this, it was a
1:37:27pattern and it happened. So that is why
1:37:33this stalling of all these exhumations
1:37:35had some purpose of its own.
1:37:39specifically, halting these further
1:37:41exhumations.
1:37:45>> As a word to end our conversation, if
1:37:48you had the opportunity to clear public
1:37:50opinion of harmful myths directed
1:37:52against Poland, besides what we have
1:37:54said about the exhumations in Jedwabne,
1:37:57the exhumations in Kharkiv, in Ukraine,
1:37:59what historical lies should we still
1:38:01have the right to verify? The situation
1:38:08is of this nature, because some of
1:38:10these things are still unnamed, many of
1:38:12you were supposed to name them.
1:38:15>> Maybe I am not the one to do it,
1:38:17because I am not a historian of World
1:38:19War II. However, as we were saying
1:38:22recently, many crimes are not actually
1:38:24named. We do not know about many places
1:38:29. Families talk, but we do not know for
1:38:33sure. Well, we are looking for the
1:38:35so-called "little Katyn," right? And we
1:38:38are looking for 456 Home Army soldiers
1:38:43who were, you know, killed by the NKVD
1:38:45in Białystok. All the traces actually
1:38:50lead to the swamps in the direction of
1:38:52Belarus. But do we know from the
1:38:59investigation's information that the
1:39:01trucks carrying these people returned
1:39:02after roughly 20 minutes? So the
1:39:08situation is like this: did they travel
1:39:1020 minutes in one direction and 20 back
1:39:13? In any case, that time was
1:39:15determinable, but we still cannot find
1:39:17these locations. Were these victims
1:39:20drowned in the swamps? We don't know
1:39:23that. We call this a small Katyn, right
1:39:25? But there are many such places.
1:39:32Simply put, there always needs to be a
1:39:34team that will dedicate more time to
1:39:36this and work beyond just regular
1:39:38business hours, because otherwise we
1:39:40won't find it. And the situation is
1:39:49such that there are many places like
1:39:51that—for example, what happened in
1:39:53Białystok, where Home Army soldiers
1:39:55were guarding the detention center,
1:39:57where it was known that some groups
1:39:59were being taken away somewhere, but it
1:40:01turned out not everyone was taken,
1:40:03because when they were installing new
1:40:12heating in the 20th century in the
1:40:14detention center—because it's always
1:40:16still a detention center, no matter who
1:40:19is in charge—they found people buried
1:40:26in the basement, and they hadn't been
1:40:27taken away at all. We even managed to
1:40:31reconstruct their wool vests and we
1:40:36published that. So the situation here
1:40:41is that we have many such places we
1:40:43don't know about at all, and it turns
1:40:45out that exactly where these people
1:40:47died, the Russians buried them—the
1:40:49NKVD simply buried them in the basement
1:40:52of the detention center. Nobody
1:40:55expected that, and in reality, it was
1:40:57only the renovations of the center that
1:41:02proved that the leaders were not taken
1:41:04anywhere, perhaps
1:41:06>> those who were constantly being
1:41:07searched for. And such places are full
1:41:09everywhere in Poland. And we
1:41:14immediately assumed that it was rather
1:41:16the work of the Russians, not the
1:41:17Germans, because the Germans were
1:41:19somehow more "hygienic" and wouldn't
1:41:21have buried someone in a basement.
1:41:26Probably not, but we could be wrong. We
1:41:30could be. However, we are primarily
1:41:32looking for Home Army soldiers. This is
1:41:35really getting to the end. You told me
1:41:39before we turned the microphones on,
1:41:41while we were talking on the couch,
1:41:43that you promised this to your mother.
1:41:47Why are you talking about this? The
1:41:49situation is that when I came home, my
1:41:56mother instilled World War II in me
1:41:58with stories about how my grandmother
1:42:00saved her Jewish friend, how I met Ms.
1:42:02Ewa. She only died in the 80s; she was
1:42:07my grandmother's friend until the end.
1:42:11They knew each other before the war, so
1:42:14that friendship lasted until the end,
1:42:19and my great-grandmother hid Ms. Ewa,
1:42:21and there was no problem at all. So I
1:42:26knew other versions of the Second World
1:42:28War, conscious of helping people, and
1:42:30not just Jews, everyone who needed help
1:42:33; people shared. And, when I spoke, I
1:42:38came back so outraged after that
1:42:41Jedwabne. We didn't have cell phones,
1:42:48so I didn't call home, but when I
1:42:50started telling my mom what happened
1:42:52and that those were simply the two
1:42:53worst weeks of my professional life,
1:42:55that I didn't expect to be treated that
1:42:57way and that we couldn't work normally,
1:42:59we kept talking about how it happened.
1:43:08We were also doing conservation work on
1:43:11items that were excavated in Jedwabne,
1:43:13so I was essentially dealing with
1:43:15Jedwabne every day for many months.
1:43:21Well, and I kept talking to my mom
1:43:23about it, and it was just a living
1:43:25topic in our home. To my sons, right? I
1:43:31was conserving items from Belzec, so my
1:43:33sons were constantly surrounded by
1:43:36World War II on a daily basis. Besides,
1:43:39I did the conservation work for Katyn,
1:43:41Kharkiv, and Mednoye in my own home,
1:43:43because I couldn't bring even a single
1:43:45item into the institute since the
1:43:47university didn't sign the contract for
1:43:49the expeditions. We were there on
1:43:54vacation leave, at the exhumations, so
1:43:56my family was constantly dealing with
1:43:58these matters every day. And since my
1:44:06mother always cared about historical
1:44:09truth, she always told me about how the
1:44:11Toruń intelligentsia was taken to
1:44:13Barbarka and executed there in the
1:44:15forest. So we were always trying to
1:44:20find some information, and that's why,
1:44:22after all these things, I said that I
1:44:24absolutely do not agree with the
1:44:26official way Jedwabne was presented. We
1:44:29discovered something completely
1:44:31different, and when my mother was still
1:44:33of sound mind, we used to talk, and she
1:44:35would say, "Child, one day you must
1:44:37tell the truth." And I came to that
1:44:40realization in 2019, by which time my
1:44:42mother had already been gone for 3
1:44:44years. But then I decided to reveal it,
1:44:48and Wojtek Sumliński came to visit me
1:44:50in Toruń. We talked for a long, very
1:44:55long time about this, and then he asked
1:44:57me if I would agree to an official
1:44:59recording. And I agreed.
1:45:02>> Mhm. And on that note, we finish. It
1:45:05was a great pleasure. Thank you very
1:45:07much for the conversation.
1:45:08>> Thank you very much.
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