Michael Knowles Debates Transgenderism on @whatever — Transcript

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1. 0:00pixie I know you've kind of had some
2. 0:01thoughts on this on your previous
3. 0:03appearances uh you know when it comes to
4. 0:05feminism obviously that's typically
5. 0:07advocacy for equality advocacy for women
6. 0:10um I think it's important when we're
7. 0:12talking about that to again Define our
8. 0:14terms so um as a nod to the Daily wi and
9. 0:18Matt Walsh what is a
10. 0:21woman you're going to hate me for this
11. 0:23one Michael but um before I have Michael
12. 0:25respond to you I I want all of you to
13. 0:27respond why we have pixie go then far
14. 0:29then go and then Jasmine go ahead um a
15. 0:31woman is a person who acts and is
16. 0:34perceived as our societal perception of
17. 0:36a woman that's at least half of
18. 0:39it
19. 0:41far um I'd like to do more research on
20. 0:43this topic before publicizing an opinion
21. 0:46veto are you joking that's really your
22. 0:49answer that is my answer as of now hey
23. 0:52come on so even if you couldn't even if
24. 0:54you're not going to reason about it
25. 0:55let's just talk from your own personal
26. 0:57prejudices and stuff what do you come on
27. 0:59just between us G just between US just
28. 1:01between us gals here we can talk after
29. 1:03the show but I like to like to Thor shff
30. 1:07wants you I like to thoroughly think out
31. 1:10my opinions before publicizing them and
32. 1:12platforming them come on you don't have
33. 1:13a hunch I bet you have a hunch of I a
34. 1:15hunch that doesn't mean I want to PL for
35. 1:17my hunches you okay it's too dangerous
36. 1:19to venture an answer these days okay
37. 1:21give a hunch yeah uh I would take kind
38. 1:23of Pixie VI I think women can be I don't
39. 1:25think trans women and biological women
40. 1:27are the same but I don't think trans
41. 1:28women are men either like there you know
42. 1:30you can have an umbrella term for women
43. 1:32and have both trans women and biological
44. 1:34women under it without realizing that
45. 1:35without also saying that they're exactly
46. 1:37the same and they have all the same
47. 1:38issues and everything's the same is if
48. 1:39they're neither men nor women what are
49. 1:41they they are women I said but they're I
50. 1:43would say they're a part of the umbrella
51. 1:45of wom okay not a part of the umbrella
52. 1:47of man yeah they are because they're
53. 1:48biological men so they're both you can
54. 1:50be a trans man or a biological man or
55. 1:52you can be a a transwoman and a
56. 1:53biological woman so depending on how
57. 1:56you're looking at it if you're looking
58. 1:57at biology yeah they're not the same can
59. 1:59you though can can your identity be
60. 2:00different you know your metaphysical
61. 2:02identity be different from your
62. 2:03biological identity can definitely be
63. 2:05different than your social identity how
64. 2:08easy um
65. 2:10when this goes back to the whole
66. 2:11chromosomes argument but like you didn't
67. 2:14check any of our chromosomes or biology
68. 2:16before calling us a woman right which
69. 2:18kind of I think there are enough
70. 2:19indicators enough indicators but you
71. 2:21base those indicators on like appearance
72. 2:24so obviously my perception you know you
73. 2:27look like women you walk like women you
74. 2:29smell like women I I think you're that's
75. 2:30her point is a performance and you're
76. 2:31basing off secondary sex characteristics
77. 2:34is what you're basing them on and people
78. 2:35can change their secondary sex yeah your
79. 2:37bodies is what I'm basing it on which
80. 2:38you can change that but you but I I'm
81. 2:40not sure that you can actually because I
82. 2:42think what's what's here at the basis of
83. 2:44it is a nostic idea that you're you can
84. 2:48separate your soul and your body and I
85. 2:49know we don't like to use the word Soul
86. 2:50anymore so we'll say your identity man
87. 2:53or whatever but that you can separate
88. 2:54that from your body and I just don't
89. 2:55think you can I think a woman is the
90. 2:57sort of person who isn't a man I think
91. 2:59that's the basic definition of a woman
92. 3:01what's a man then a man is the sort of
93. 3:02person who isn't a woman what how did
94. 3:04you know we were women because you look
95. 3:06like women okay you sound like women and
96. 3:09when I talk to you you give the
97. 3:11impression that you're women so if a
98. 3:12really good passing transwoman is here
99. 3:14and you were mistaken then I would be
100. 3:16mistaken but he would not be a woman no
101. 3:18but my point is I be misten looking at
102. 3:21is secondary sex characteristics and
103. 3:22those are things that people those are
104. 3:24the signs that point to the reality of
105. 3:26oh this is all men and women and like
106. 3:27but I'm not saying the signs are
107. 3:28synonymous with sex I'm saying the signs
108. 3:31are signs and the signs symbolize
109. 3:33something but there is something to say
110. 3:35about somebody that like like you said
111. 3:36walks talks looks like a woman and to
112. 3:39say that this is now 100% a man 100 no
113. 3:41there's you have to say no he would be
114. 3:43he would be per Performing as a woman
115. 3:46and he might even fool me depending on
116. 3:47how much surgery you he would socially
117. 3:49be a woman he he would be he would try
118. 3:51to do that but I I don't think Society
119. 3:53should recognize those he would succeed
120. 3:56to the point where you don't even
121. 3:57realize usually you do realize is the
122. 4:00thing I like I know they convinc
123. 4:01themselves that they really yeah but
124. 4:03they you know I've met plenty of
125. 4:04transexuals cuz they protest my speeches
126. 4:06and they uh usually you can tell because
127. 4:10again it gets to what we're talking
128. 4:11about the very top of this debate which
129. 4:13was the the question of human nature
130. 4:16right I think me and Old Uncle Aristotle
131. 4:19believe that you're you're a body and a
132. 4:22soul together I'm not just my soul
133. 4:24trapped in a useless body I'm not just
134. 4:26my body without a soul or totally
135. 4:28separated from my soul I think I'm a
136. 4:30soul and a and a and a body together so
137. 4:33my body gives me much of my sex it to
138. 4:36use the technical term it's an
139. 4:38Inseparable accident of the individual
140. 4:40uh I and I think that pertains to my
141. 4:41whole person because you can't separate
142. 4:43those two for the whole of my life CH
143. 4:45can can men get pregnant can men get
144. 4:48pregnant not biological men okay yeah
145. 4:51trans men can
146. 4:54okay yeah can we really divide men up
147. 4:56like that like I'm a biological man but
148. 4:59I'm a a spiritual woman and I'm a I mean
149. 5:02we do um what is it we do
150. 5:04classifications um within gender all the
151. 5:06time black women white women for example
152. 5:08that' be racial yeah no but that's still
153. 5:11within the scope of women you're still
154. 5:13saying oh these are there's women who
155. 5:15are black there's women who are not
156. 5:16black there are women who have had essay
157. 5:18experiences there's women who haven't
158. 5:20had experiences race is real though it's
159. 5:22actually uh more difficult to pin down
160. 5:25than sexual difference but it's real
161. 5:27yeah they're different races sure you
162. 5:29can black people and white people are
163. 5:30different races and men and women are
164. 5:31different Sexes last thing on oh sorry
165. 5:34one can't become the other except in the
166. 5:36case of Michael Jackson who he got the
167. 5:37closest but he was still I think he was
168. 5:38still a black guy wasn't that V Lio that
169. 5:42that's what he said that's what he said
170. 5:43I don't know if I beli Michael Jackson
171. 5:45because he actually you um stumb I don't
172. 5:48want to say stumbled because that's
173. 5:49condescending but whatever you stumbled
174. 5:50onto something quite interesting I'm
175. 5:51glad I did because the whole idea is
176. 5:54that when it comes like the notion of
177. 5:56race um the reason why Michael Jackson
178. 5:58is was technically never white he was
179. 6:00always black is because we treat race as
180. 6:02like a historical um a historical
181. 6:05question basically what we're asking
182. 6:06when we ask somebody what's your race is
183. 6:08basically what is your ancestry like
184. 6:10what got you here to be here now versus
185. 6:12sex where or gender specifically where
186. 6:14we treat at more of a societal
187. 6:16conception like what are you performing
188. 6:17as yeah I don't treat it that way at all
189. 6:20and I think that sexual I mean I think
190. 6:21racial difference is real the reason
191. 6:22Michael Jackson's black is cu he did
192. 6:24Thriller you know I don't think you
193. 6:27can't really change your race Rachel dll
194. 6:28is all tried and she ruined her life
195. 6:30because of it uh but if you could I mean
196. 6:32I'm kind of swarthy right you might
197. 6:34think I'm like Arabic or Mexican or
198. 6:35something even though I'm Italian and
199. 6:37waspy I don't know waspy which you see
200. 6:38in the Mayflower cigar actually uh but I
201. 6:42certainly couldn't change my sex because
202. 6:43the the difference between a black guy
203. 6:45and a white guy I'm not saying there are
204. 6:46not differences that there physical
205. 6:48differences there are cultural
206. 6:49differences sure maybe but those
207. 6:51differences are nothing compared to the
208. 6:54difference between a man and a
209. 6:56woman okay the point is I think what
210. 6:58we're trying to get out here or is that
211. 6:59when it comes to like our conception of
212. 7:01sex versus gender um we base our
213. 7:03conception of gender on how Dustin
214. 7:05wasburn donated $200 than anything else
215. 7:08Michael with your talk and logic about
216. 7:10soul and body do you believe it's
217. 7:12possible for the wrong soul to be placed
218. 7:14in the wrong body no because I I think
219. 7:17following Old Uncle St Thomas aquinus
220. 7:19that the the sex derives mostly from the
221. 7:22body so it's it would be incoherent to
222. 7:24say uh that the the soul is another sex
223. 7:27because if the soul were a different sex
224. 7:29the Soul being the substantial form of
225. 7:30the body it would mean that men and
226. 7:31women are different species and men and
227. 7:33women have a lot of differences but
228. 7:34we're not why did God create gender for
229. 7:37you Dustin thank you last thing on this
230. 7:39um and I think pixie you've had on your
231. 7:41previous appearances you've maybe had
232. 7:42thoughts on this and I think feminists
233. 7:44tend to differ on this last topic that
234. 7:46we're going to hit on uh when it comes
235. 7:48to the trans discussion Sports um do you
236. 7:52think that there should
237. 7:53be
238. 7:55separation what are your thoughts on uh
239. 7:57for example trans women
240. 8:00uh trans women participating in women's
241. 8:02sports yeah so I think um what I've
242. 8:06currently seen of the data and studies
243. 8:08is that even after taking hormones and
244. 8:10such and there might still be advantages
245. 8:12in certain ways so to me it would be
246. 8:14like it's a theoretical question like I
247. 8:16would have to have more data but
248. 8:17basically if it seems that some of like
249. 8:20these biological advantages are like too
250. 8:22high or it cannot be um mitigated enough
251. 8:25through the use of hormones and such
252. 8:27then yeah it would be too much of an
253. 8:29Fair Advantage versus um if the data
254. 8:32shows otherwise and it's like no
255. 8:34actually it is like mitigated well
256. 8:35enough so that's my general stat is
257. 8:38aren't we just all slaves to like the
258. 8:40data you know it's like the if the study
259. 8:42shows I love the data yeah maybe but the
260. 8:45the data are so manipulated I mean
261. 8:46social scientific data they're in a
262. 8:48major replication crisis well if it
263. 8:49wasn't the scientific method is their
264. 8:51best way to get to the truth is it I'm
265. 8:53not sure about that I would say so so I
266. 8:55think it's the best we have otherwise we
267. 8:56just have our anecdotes and our feelings
268. 8:58what look I'm I'm all for for empirical
269. 9:00scientific analyses of the things that
270. 9:02that it can measure but but those are
271. 9:04all physical things and what we're
272. 9:05talking about here is deeper than a
273. 9:06physical thing right we're talking
274. 9:07because we're we're not mere flesh I
275. 9:09don't think I don't think we think we're
276. 9:10mere flesh this is where we disagree
277. 9:12because we think that you think you're
278. 9:13just flesh no no no we disagree on
279. 9:15whether like you're like oh like the
280. 9:17issue here isn't the data the data on
281. 9:19whether this would be unfair to women is
282. 9:21what I care about well because if it
283. 9:23wasn't then I would say yeah they do but
284. 9:24the data on whether this is unfair to
285. 9:26women are not going to come from some
286. 9:28like dor Economist that those data are
287. 9:31going to come from the reality of the
288. 9:32different it's going to come from
289. 9:33natural scientists certainly it's going
290. 9:34to come from uh people who have an
291. 9:37understanding of what human nature is
292. 9:38and what Justice is no I don't think
293. 9:40this is a human nature debate I think
294. 9:41this is about does your muscle mass give
295. 9:43you an advantage and if you take
296. 9:44hormones it seems to not like you said
297. 9:46reverse all of the advantages that you
298. 9:48have how does a scientific study
299. 9:51conclude something about fairness or
300. 9:53Justice how do you measure Justice does
301. 9:56jump to that conclusion but we use their
302. 9:57conclusions to then make our opinion oh
303. 9:59you're saying you're so you would look
304. 10:02at a scientific survey and say wow that
305. 10:03big Husky dude who ran who swam against
306. 10:05the women turns out he was a lot faster
307. 10:07than all those little women and
308. 10:08therefore I conclude that uh men
309. 10:11competing against women in a women's
310. 10:12sport is unjust no what you should do
311. 10:14you should be like hey okay how do we
312. 10:16realize if like okay I don't know should
313. 10:18uh trans women compete with real women H
314. 10:20I don't know do they have an unfair
315. 10:21Advantage by do you SLI there and you
316. 10:23said real women well biological women
317. 10:25okay biolog you just accidentally I
318. 10:29think I think that makes sense yeah I
319. 10:30would agree with that yeah biological
320. 10:32women You could argue are real women but
321. 10:34that doesn't mean wom are not which
322. 10:36which implies that the trans women are
323. 10:38not really under the category they're
324. 10:39not under the category of biological
325. 10:41women and so what I want no you just
326. 10:42said they're not under the category of
327. 10:43real okay well you can har on that my
328. 10:45point here is that no I think it's I'm
329. 10:46I'm not trying to get you I'm just
330. 10:47trying to point out you you the point
331. 10:49I'm trying to make is if I'm trying to
332. 10:50figure out the answer to this question
333. 10:52and the question for me is not what is
334. 10:54natural or what is cath Catholicism say
335. 10:56it's is this unfair to have trans women
336. 10:59compete with real women well I want to
337. 11:00know and the way to know that is to look
338. 11:01at the science not to just look at
339. 11:03somebody how do you know what's fair and
340. 11:05what's not fair in sports to have an
341. 11:07unfair advantage and that you could comp
342. 11:11you have to compare like right like you
343. 11:12would have to see okay if you this is
344. 11:14why they' banned certain drugs I don't
345. 11:15know anything about sports I'm assuming
346. 11:16all this I'm just saying how do you know
347. 11:17what fairness is we all have I would say
348. 11:20that the only way you really know how
349. 11:22fairness is is that we all have kind of
350. 11:24like a you know we have a feeling about
351. 11:27it that's all I can say a Feeling is it
352. 11:29a reasonable conscience I you can
353. 11:31compare averages um You can compare
354. 11:33averages yeah but also the hunch the the
355. 11:35even the idea that we all want things to
356. 11:37be fair is like an evolutionary in my
357. 11:40opinion just thing that we all kind
358. 11:43ofel Michael Phelps is a faster swimmer
359. 11:45than some guy we've never heard of he he
360. 11:48does he have an unfair advantage over
361. 11:49the guy we never heard of they have
362. 11:51different average swimming times is the
363. 11:53is the average swimming time going to
364. 11:54imply something about fairness and
365. 11:55Justice no you need something else to to
366. 11:58come to a conclusion about Justice and
367. 12:00fairness and that's not going to be
368. 12:01scientific it's going to be
369. 12:02philosophical ultimately philosophic
370. 12:04quick quick quick last last points go
371. 12:05ahead pixie I'm say I do think that
372. 12:07comparing averages um does give us
373. 12:09greater Insight what's like fairness or
374. 12:11not so for example um Michael Phelps
375. 12:13competing um with other Olympic swimmers
376. 12:16is much more fair than Michael Phelps
377. 12:18competing against like a completely
378. 12:20average swimmer so obviously there's
379. 12:22something to be said about people within
380. 12:23like the same leagues or performing
381. 12:25around the same level and that's why we
382. 12:27have like golden versus bronze versus
383. 12:29like silver categories well no that that
384. 12:31would just be awards for no but I'm
385. 12:33saying like like sorry I should have
386. 12:34said division one division two division
387. 12:36three sure so you're saying people who
388. 12:37are of the same type it would be fair
389. 12:39for the people of the same type to
390. 12:41compete against each other but we've
391. 12:42already established that trans women and
392. 12:45real women are not of the same type so
393. 12:46they shouldn't compete against each
394. 12:47other forget about the averages that's
395. 12:49why we're also saying that when it comes
396. 12:50to like hormones or certain supplements
397. 12:52um if the Divide gets bridged enough
398. 12:55then it might open to new discussion or
399. 12:57different discussion so that's why we're
400. 12:58saying full of hormones then the transom
401. 13:01who is not a real woman could become a
402. 13:02real woman it's not about being a real
403. 13:05woman because as we said before these
404. 13:07are not just these are not just matters
405. 13:08of the flesh as you stated before um a
406. 13:11lot of this is about societal perception
407. 13:13of what a woman is and that goes back to
408. 13:15like certain actions and certain looks
409. 13:17so in our day-to-day life that's what we
410. 13:19rely we rely the concept of woman on
411. 13:21actions and looks I I yeah but I I just
412. 13:23guess I wouldn't trust Society more than
413. 13:26I would trust objective truth