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0:00welcome back so yesterday we had a great
0:08conversation and some great speakers
0:11talking to us about civil discourse and
0:15speaking truth to power
0:17so really yesterday we got a touch of
0:20both theory and practice
0:24today we're going to turn to both of
0:28those topics civil discourse and
0:30speaking truth to power in the context
0:34of two very influential institutions in
0:40our country higher education which most
0:45of us in this room are all part of and
0:47the media and we're going to explore
0:51civil discourse and speaking truth to
0:55power now each of you got a copy of the
0:59Constitution of the United States on
1:02purpose a good segue from the judges
1:06speech last night was that document is
1:10pretty fundamental to understanding a
1:14lot of notions connected to speaking
1:19truth to power so I commend to you
1:23sometime take just a few minutes to read
1:27I think that's a 39 page small document
1:31worth knowing and understanding what's
1:35in there which will help us as we frame
1:38out some of the issues that you're going
1:40to hear today so our next speaker was in
1:47the news last year when she was caught
1:49up in a student protest at her
1:53university against a controversial
1:56conservative speaker that protest went a
1:59little bit awry here to share her
2:02first-person experience with the state
2:05of free speech on a college campus and
2:08some insights on how to proceed forward
2:11is dr. Allison staying
2:13her doctor stinger is the rush Russell
2:17laying 60 professor of international
2:21politics and economics and the founding
2:25director of the rohit n' Center for
2:28International Affairs at Middlebury
2:31College in Vermont
2:32dr. stinger earned her PhD in political
2:36science at Harvard University she is the
2:40author of one nation under contract the
2:44outsourcing of American power and the
2:47future of foreign policy and her
2:50forthcoming life liberty and the pursuit
2:54of leaks the story of whistleblowing in
2:57America will be published soon by Yale
3:01University Press she is working on a new
3:04book also tentatively titled consumers
3:07verse citizens how the internet
3:10revolution is remaking global security
3:13and democracy's public square
3:16dr. stingers published opinion pieces in
3:19foreign affairs foreign policy Financial
3:23Times International Herald Tribune New
3:26York Times USA Today US News & World
3:29Report in The Washington Post she has
3:33testified before the Commission on
3:36wartime contracting the Senate Budget
3:40Committee and the Congressional
3:41Oversight Panel she's a member of the
3:44Council on Foreign Relations and is a
3:46cybersecurity fellow at the New America
3:50Foundation in March 2017
3:54she wrote a New York Times opinion piece
3:57titled understanding the angry mob at
4:02Middlebury that gave me a concussion
4:04ladies and gentlemen please welcome dr.
4:07Allison Stanger
4:09[Applause]
4:17water here so I got to find a place to
4:24put my water can you hear me okay
4:26all right good meal just put it down
4:29here well it's wonderful to see all of
4:34you here your uniforms are beautiful I'm
4:37trying to understand the different types
4:38and I can't tell you what a pleasure and
4:41an honor it is to be speaking at VMI
4:44it's my first time to Lexington I'm
4:47overwhelmed with how beautiful the
4:49surrounding areas and with how your
4:51campuses so I hope you when you walk out
4:53of here today you appreciate the gift
4:56you've been given of a VMI education or
4:59a VMI conference I should I should add
5:02that that title of the New York Times
5:06peace understanding the angry mob at
5:08Middlebury that gave me a concussion is
5:10was not my title so just so you know
5:14whenever you see a title that kind of
5:16makes you cringe a little bit don't
5:18blame the author the New York Times
5:21editorial board sets they they decide
5:24what the headline is going to be so that
5:25wasn't my headline you heard about some
5:31of the testimony I've given before
5:32Congress previously I also just spoke on
5:34Thursday before the Senate health
5:36education labor and pensions committee
5:38on freedom of speech on college campuses
5:42and I'm happy to tell you here because
5:46they're about to discuss this just
5:48something sad I thought it begin with
5:49some good news that at that hearing a
5:53bipartisan consensus consensus was
5:55reached on freedom of expression as the
5:57bedrock of liberal education and our
6:00constitutional democracy that is a part
6:03of the congressional record now and I do
6:05not think that is trivial to see
6:07Democrats and Republicans come together
6:09on this issue so I'm delighted with that
6:11outcome
6:13and looking forward to the future with
6:14optimism
6:16so that's the that's the good news
6:20let me talk about the bad news what
6:22happened to me last spring I guess I
6:26should tell you this story since I can't
6:27assume you know it does that make sense
6:30to you all right I remember every detail
6:34but I'm not expecting you to remember or
6:37know anything
6:37so last March the American Enterprise
6:41Institute Club at Middlebury College
6:42invited me to moderate an event with
6:47charles murray the libertarian scholar
6:49scholar from the American Enterprise
6:51Institute and they asked me to do this
6:53by Madhuri and they wanted me not just
6:55to decide he was going to ask questions
6:57but also to talk about what to give him
7:02a hard time to give him three or four
7:04really tough questions at the beginning
7:06that was the idea and I prepared I read
7:08everything I prepared I had great
7:10questions there's a video you can see of
7:12of it if you'd like but it's not the
7:15video from the event in the lecture hall
7:16what happened in the lecture hall is
7:17students stood up they turn their backs
7:19they shot at all these crazy slogans it
7:23went on for 25 minutes then we realized
7:25we could not continue with the event
7:27Middlebury College are prepared for that
7:29continuously so we went to a remote
7:30location in the same building to
7:33simulcast the event we were we were we
7:36were we were determined that it was
7:37state take place
7:38despite the students that wanted to shut
7:40it down and it went forward but this
7:44enraged the protostar still further so
7:46they started setting off fire alarms
7:48they were hurling rocks at the windows
7:50they were they were screaming
7:52obscenities through the windows so if
7:54you watch that videotape just keep in
7:55mind they're using directional
7:56microphone so you really can't even hear
7:57how terrifying it was but we did finish
7:59that event and because we went forward I
8:03think that orig enraged the protestor
8:05still further so when we left the
8:06building that's when we were attacked
8:07they were really focused on charles
8:10murray he's a 74 year old man he was 74
8:13years old at the time and it looked like
8:15he was going to fall so I did what any
8:17of you would have done I'm convinced you
8:19would have done the same thing I grabbed
8:20his arm both to keep him from falling
8:23but also to be sure that we didn't get
8:25separated as we went to the car so we
8:27got to the cuff and
8:29in that fracas when they saw me take his
8:32arm got so angry because I was with my
8:34body I was sort of preventing them from
8:37harassing him
8:38despite think about if you take
8:40someone's arm your body's in the way
8:41you're cutting off the angle for someone
8:43who's trying to get at him so that's
8:45when they turned on me and they pull
8:46somebody pull my hair really hard for
8:48one direction somebody well another
8:49person bodyslam me and the other so I
8:51wanted with whiplash and a concussion
8:53that was exacerbated by the getaway car
8:56we had to get into a car it was like a
8:58scene from homeland if you if you've
9:02ever watched that show people jumping on
9:04the car rocking it back and forth
9:06someone pulled a stop sign stuck it
9:08underneath the car to try to keep it
9:09from moving forward we were very
9:12concerned that we did not hit students
9:13so I was in the passion or side
9:16Bilborough the the college
9:18communications director was in the
9:20driver's seat charles murray was in the
9:21back poor bill was getting directions
9:24from outside stop start go here do this
9:27from various public safety I was giving
9:30my own directions you're all military
9:32purse
9:33you know it's bad when there's two to
9:35commanders-in-chief right there was
9:39always the car was stopping and starting
9:40and I think that exacerbate in my
9:42condition so I was I was
9:46I was in physical therapy until
9:49mid-september so that's what happened
9:54why did it happen I think there are
9:57three reasons first of all the election
10:00of Donald Trump set the stage for
10:02overreaction and misinterpretation
10:05charles murray was a lightning rod in
10:08that context that he might not otherwise
10:09have been and i've said elsewhere that
10:12Middlebury College is like any other
10:14liberal arts college it's sort of a
10:16bubble you know cut off from the outside
10:19world but Middlebury College is also in
10:22the state of Vermont which is also a
10:24bubble the National Republican
10:26candidates don't even campaign there
10:28because they know it's a lost cause it's
10:29the state that received the second
10:31lowest percentage second lowest
10:34percentage of Trump voters in the Union
10:36just by point two points beating out you
10:39know Hawaii is the one that had the
10:40lowest percentage
10:42and so within that context it was easy
10:45to overreact and misinterpret what
10:47charles murray represented second reason
10:51happened is that some Middlebury faculty
10:53members cheered on the protest and did
10:56not encourage their students to read
10:57Charles Murray or listen to him first
11:00before drawing their own conclusions of
11:02autism his his work and his character
11:05and I can't stress to you enough how
11:09important this is for understanding what
11:11happen there's a website called the
11:13Southern Poverty well it's an
11:15organization called the Southern Poverty
11:16Law Center it did great work in the
11:17civil rights movement some have
11:19criticized it today for for getting
11:22lists of proponents of hate and charles
11:25murray is on that list he's listed there
11:28as a white nationalist it's full of pull
11:32quotes I would argue that are taken out
11:35of context but so what happened was
11:38students encouraged by faculty they
11:40would just look at that website see how
11:42this man had been labeled and they did
11:44that was all they need to know they
11:45didn't need to read anything or learn
11:47anything further that was all they need
11:48to know to realize this man should not
11:50be allowed to speak third reason this
11:54happened is that some students believed
11:55genuinely believed that shutting down
11:57speech was a means to social justice and
12:01some Middlebury faculty shared that view
12:04thereby encouraging radical action I I
12:10already knew familiar with the the book
12:12hillbilly elegy have you heard anything
12:14about that yeah okay I met JD Vance
12:18earlier this month
12:19and he asked me a great question he
12:21asked me whether what happened to me was
12:23a one-off thing related to a particular
12:24moment in time or an expression of
12:27something larger and I thought that was
12:30a really good question so I wanted to
12:31share with you my answer to him I
12:34responded that is both the overreaction
12:38was very much rooted in the bubble
12:40within a bubble that is Middlebury
12:42College but it it was also a reaction to
12:45larger trends in this country that have
12:48long been in motion having to do with
12:50growing inequalities in our country
12:54that correlate with unequal K through 12
12:59educational opportunities so what
13:02happens that Middlebury successfully
13:04recruits a diverse class of the best and
13:06the brightest from around the country
13:08and also the world but some students of
13:12color who arrived on our campus from
13:14urban areas are confronted for the first
13:18time with the challenges of living in
13:20one of the whitest states in the Union
13:22they can't even get their haircut in
13:24Middlebury Middlebury Vermont or get it
13:26cut properly and there's a lot of other
13:29examples of how it seems like a very
13:30foreign place at Middlebury they also
13:33encounter unfathomable privilege
13:34Middlebury I don't know what the tuition
13:36is now but I think it's it's it's well
13:38over $60,000 a year 60% of our students
13:44pay the full amount okay so that's it
13:50might be a little yeah I think that's
13:53roughly what it is out to be so they're
13:55encountering countering unfathomable
13:57privilege which often is accompanied by
14:00a sense of entitlement so since our
14:03Constitution once counted slaves as
14:06three-fifths of a human being when vast
14:09inequality seems to align with racial
14:11difference it breeds legitimate
14:13resentment now I'm not telling you this
14:16to excuse the shutting down a speech and
14:18the violence to it should LED but I'm
14:21telling you this to point out that the
14:22emotions that those protesters brought
14:25to the event were real and justified
14:28there is still in my view much equality
14:31work to do in this country so let's tie
14:36be misunderstood I want to make it clear
14:38that we're talking about a small
14:39minority of students and faculty who
14:42applauded censorship but they were loud
14:45and vocal just as those of us were who
14:48stood for freedom of expression and I
14:50think we could say that a fundamental
14:52misunderstanding arose instead of seeing
14:56freedom of speech and expression as the
14:58bedrock of American constitutional
15:00democracy and of liberal education the
15:05ground rules through which greater
15:07diversity and in
15:08who's Tiffany have been and can still be
15:10achieved the opponents of having Charles
15:13Marie speak on campus saw a trade-off
15:14between freedom of speech on the one
15:17hand and inclusivity on the other so you
15:20have to choose do you want freedom of
15:21speech or do you want to be inclusive
15:25make everybody every American feel at
15:28home at Middlebury College now in my
15:33view nothing could be further from the
15:34truth to suggest as this trade-off
15:35between inclusivity and freedom of
15:36speech because freedom of speech is is
15:41is a point that the foundation you need
15:44if we look at the history of this
15:46country for greater inclusivity and
15:48diversity if you look at the history of
15:51country you can see that that's that so
15:54but the idea that there is a trade-off
15:56between free speech and inclusivity
15:58carried the day initially in our campus
16:01discourse and I really think it could do
16:04so only by ignoring both American
16:06history and the empirical world beyond
16:08the Green Mountains which provides
16:11inescapable evidence that is precisely
16:13it is precisely the marginalized who
16:15suffer the most when civil liberties are
16:18compromised but the view that
16:21inclusivity and free speech are mutually
16:24exclusive had and will continue to have
16:27popular appeal why because it seems to
16:32embrace moderation in an average person
16:35can say oh there's these crazy free
16:37speech people and there's these crazy
16:38inclusivity of people and they both have
16:40a point so I'm in the middle it looks
16:44like you guys having a bad divorce I'm
16:45just gonna stay I'm just gonna keep my
16:46head down and do my work and not have
16:48anything to do with this debate so it I
16:53think this is true in many political
16:54contexts when there are kind of
16:56explosive issues is that most people
17:01will refuse to take aside
17:04and this is very much an issue where one
17:06had to take a side because it's a matter
17:08of principle in my view but many people
17:13don't want to choose choose a side have
17:17you have you watched the the musical
17:19Hamilton are you familiar with the
17:20soundtrack to Hamilton cadets don't
17:23watch Hamilton I won't use that analogy
17:26then because there won't mean anything
17:28to you but you should all go listen to
17:29the soundtrack to Hamilton it's a great
17:32artistic accomplishment I quoted from
17:35Hamilton in my congressional testimony
17:38that's how strongly I feel about it
17:41there were quite a few brave souls
17:44however who saw the foundation of the
17:46university under challenge and spoke out
17:47publicly they understood that academic
17:50freedom is a foundation for both
17:51knowledge and human excellence and that
17:54it matters what is happening in
17:55universities because democracy and
17:59liberal education are intertwined two of
18:04my colleagues organized the principles
18:05of free expression petition they
18:07garnered over 100 signatures from
18:10Middlebury faculty and it was published
18:11in The Wall Street Journal in March I
18:13can't tell you how much that meant to me
18:14because I was really I had a serious
18:16brain injury I was in a dark room and
18:19someone read to me that column and I
18:20wanted to cry that they had stood up and
18:23sign this these principles and there was
18:26if you look at who signed it there were
18:28three general patterns among the
18:30signatories first many supporters had
18:33studied or experienced intellectual life
18:35under an authoritarian or totalitarian
18:38regime so they knew how precious freedom
18:42of speech was second pattern pattern
18:45among the signatories was that many had
18:48lived in American red states and had
18:51loved ones with whom they disagreed
18:53politically so they're used to having
18:54disagree loving people with whom they
18:56have political disagreements and finally
18:59third pattern is quite a few and this is
19:01the part that's disturbing it's why I
19:03think it's really important to talk to
19:04all of you here about this most of them
19:07were older
19:08rather than younger
19:11now I myself happened to fall into all
19:13three of these categories I should also
19:16add the professors from the STEM fields
19:17math you know mathematics technology you
19:20know what stem is right this is the
19:22military yeah the rest from the STEM
19:24fields philosophy and religion were
19:29disproportionately represented on that
19:31list so the key to upholding freedom of
19:34speech on college campuses in my view is
19:36to mobilize the STEM fields because
19:39there we can talk about this more later
19:41if you like they're in their
19:41laboratories they don't want to be
19:43bothered but they rely heavily on
19:46federal funds to do their research and
19:47if anything's going to jeopardize their
19:49research they will come out of their
19:50laboratories and vote on the faculty
19:52floor so this is important to keep in
19:54mind in general the signatories
19:57understood the critical importance of
19:58being able to disagree for the sake of
20:02the community for the sake of free
20:04inquiry and for democracy itself it was
20:08shocking to discover that had colleagues
20:10who did not share my understanding of
20:12the academies in America's core values
20:16so looking ahead to the future we really
20:20didn't talk about this in Congress but I
20:22think that's the next step the main
20:24thing that came out of the hearing was
20:26that both parties support freedom of
20:28expression on college campuses and all
20:31the panelists did not want to see some
20:33kind of legislation to uphold freedom of
20:37expression on college campuses we
20:38thought that would be a mistake we
20:39should let the universities take care of
20:41it three lessons I would draw from this
20:45that might be interesting to you are the
20:48following institutions of higher
20:51learning this would be the first lesson
20:54cannot be in the business of policing
20:56symbolic violence you know this is the
20:58the argument is made that Charles Murray
21:00is speaking in it's symbolic violence to
21:02certain marginalized groups so
21:07I would argue that if you're going to
21:08campuses are going to police symbolic
21:10violence they will wind up damaging the
21:14ideals of critical and free inquiry for
21:16which the university properly stands
21:19universities in my view exist to promote
21:21and renown which ideas can be exchanged
21:22freely not to render value judgments on
21:25the ideals themselves there are larger
21:28implications to getting this right I
21:31think a reducing groupthink which is
21:34what a kind of mob responds to a speaker
21:36is reducing groupthink in the academy is
21:40a prerequisite for reducing groupthink
21:42in the electorate so what we're doing on
21:44college campus is directly connected to
21:46what's going on in the country making
21:48this an extraordinarily important and
21:50issue second this is an underappreciated
21:52aspect of what happened at Middlebury
21:54it's the part that really gets me angry
21:56all right
21:58the AI Club the students invited Charles
22:01Murray to campus I agreed to moderate
22:04that event incidentally I also agreed to
22:07moderate an event two weeks later with
22:09Edward Snowden another group of students
22:11invited me to do that some kind of an
22:12equal-opportunity interlock you tour I
22:14will take on and talk to engage with the
22:18speaker from both sides of the political
22:22spectrum but what happened then was that
22:26the political science department because
22:27mostly all Democrats we're always
22:30looking for great Republican
22:32perspectives why because we don't want
22:35to be indoctrinating our students we
22:36want to have them engage political
22:39issues and understand all the different
22:40potential perspectives there might be so
22:43the political science department agrees
22:45to co-sponsor this event and then
22:46something amazing happens it violates
22:49all past norms of conduct of the
22:52University another department sociology
22:54anthropology or at least its chair
22:56because there was divisions within the
22:58department decided to try to publicly
23:01censor the political science where they
23:03were telling us you have to withdraw
23:05your co-sponsorship and they were
23:08rallying all these people to sign things
23:10to get us to withdraw our co-sponsorship
23:11this is I deeply ironic because two
23:15years prior the sociology anthropology
23:17department in many other departments at
23:19Middlebury
23:20co-sponsored a talk and paid a lot of
23:23money for Angela Davis who we now know
23:28was on the payroll of the Soviet Union
23:31for much her activism career
23:34none of us tried to stop that from
23:36happening some of you might not go my
23:39husband wouldn't ask he was my husband
23:41is a refugee from communist
23:44Czechoslovakia so he takes it personally
23:47you know that what that she was sort of
23:49excusing what was going on in East
23:50Germany well his family was suffering
23:52there
23:52he wouldn't asked a really tough
23:54question but no one tried to shut it
23:56down so this was really unacceptable
23:59what they did it violated norms of
24:02collegiality that have long been
24:05established and leads me to believe that
24:07if universities support a Treaty of
24:09Westphalia you study the Treaty of
24:10Westphalia right we had if we uphold
24:14that on college campuses for departments
24:16I just think we'll be in a much better
24:17space on these issues look let each
24:19Department decide what it's worth their
24:21students engaging and I told Congress
24:23let's be clear I told senator Warren
24:25this actually you could see it in the
24:26testimony no faculty member is ever
24:30going to co-sponsor talk by Richard
24:32Spencer charles murray is not Richard
24:35Spencer he's a scholar at the American
24:37Enterprise Institute he writes these fat
24:41big books that if you really read them
24:43they're not inflammatory they're there
24:45seriously written and he is respected in
24:48Republican circles so to equate the two
24:51of those as being provocateurs is just
24:55to me fundamentally misguided third
24:58thing I would point out and then I'll
24:59conclude is it's I think it's viewpoint
25:02diversity is very important in liberal
25:05education I was a graduate student at
25:07the heart in the Harvard Government
25:09Department and I had conservative
25:12professors like Harvey Mansfield like
25:15James Q Wilson even like Sam Huntington
25:17these professors really changed my life
25:20because even though we fundamentally
25:22disagreed they forced me to reexamine my
25:25biases and I began to understand more
25:27clearly why I believed what I did and
25:29why so I think viewpoint diversity
25:33is an asset for any institution of
25:37higher learning part of the reason I
25:39invited Charles Murray that is are not
25:41invited him I did not invite him I
25:44agreed to moderate the talk with him but
25:47part of the reason I participated is
25:48that I wanted my own students to have
25:51the same educational experience I did to
25:53experience a whole diverse range of
25:55views well let me conclude so we have
25:58plenty of time for questions with some
26:00wise words from the Chinese dissident
26:02you shall Bowl who won the 2010 Nobel
26:05Peace Prize while imprisoned for his
26:07commitment to democratic values and who
26:09died the summer for his Nobel lecture he
26:12penned the following memorable lines
26:14freedom of expression is the foundation
26:17of human rights the source of humanity
26:21and the mother of truth to strangle
26:24freedom of speech is to trample on human
26:27rights stifle humanity and suppress
26:31truth there's a dangerous idea that has
26:35recently taken hold on the American left
26:37that one must fight fire with fire
26:39as a result we have an alt left and an
26:44alt right in the United States in
26:46resisting what they see as extremist
26:49extremism the alt left embraces
26:52extremists tactics democracy and
26:55reasoned debate have been and will be
26:57the main casualties since the extreme
26:59left both the extreme left and the
27:01extreme right are rebelling against
27:04tolerance itself in this environment
27:07upholding freedom of expression protects
27:09all of us because it gives us individual
27:12ways to dissent without resorting to
27:14violence more broadly our constitutional
27:19democracy will depend on whether
27:20Americans can relearn how to engage
27:22civilly with one another and we can all
27:26play a role in this we can all model the
27:28behavior we want to see as citizens as
27:31set senators as professors and move the
27:33country in a better direction our
27:36national security also depends on it
27:40because think about it
27:42America's enemies all seek to divide us
27:45I could take you through
27:47you know al-qaeda ISIL Vladimir Putin
27:53they all seek to divide us and we must
27:56not allow them to do so I think I'll
28:00stop there oh thank you for your
28:03attention I'd welcome your questions
28:04about anything whatsoever I've spoken
28:06about and even things that I might not
28:08have spoken about thank you very much
28:10[Applause]
28:18anything don't be shy your cadets come
28:21on show me what you got
28:32it's not working yes sir hi uh my name's
28:35Ted Lynch from North University
28:37Northfield Vermont oh yeah nothing
28:40figured I'd have to ask you crushing
28:41yeah I studied it I study Russian at
28:44Norwich okay they don't have that
28:45anymore
28:45yeah because they'll trade it by the KGB
28:48did you know that's it no I did not know
28:50that
28:50it should be working oh okay great so my
28:54question is do you feel like the the
28:57riots not only at like Middlebury
28:59College but other colleges and
29:01universities across the nation do you
29:03feel like the root cause of that is just
29:05an institutional failure like among
29:07these universities especially like the
29:10way they teach the importance of the
29:12right to free speech or is there like an
29:15underlying cause to all this that's it
29:17that's a super good question and a lot
29:23of this has to do with leadership and a
29:26lot of this has to do with being willing
29:31not to be liked to do what I did I had
29:36to become like a witch like figure in
29:38Vermont I can't even tell you people
29:42just didn't know what to make of me you
29:44had some people on the extreme left on
29:46the faculty and saying you know I think
29:47she's really a Republican she says she's
29:49a Democrat and she worked for Hillary
29:50but she's supported military recruiting
29:52on campus she's really a Republican and
29:54all these strange things about me and it
29:59was hard right it was really hard so I
30:03think that's a big part of it I think
30:05for both students faculty and even in
30:07the administration if you have someone
30:11who's who's who's emotionally distraught
30:14saying I am going to be triggered if you
30:19bring charles murray to campus this is
30:21my home how can you be doing this to me
30:23in my home it's a natural human response
30:26to say oh my god I feel your pain I'm
30:28gonna back you up and that happened in
30:30the protest too I talked to a number of
30:32my students who went to the protest not
30:34planning to shut down speech and they
30:37wound up doing it because if you look at
30:38that video people are just so upset and
30:41they want they want to be good humans
30:42they want to help them but we all have
30:44to stop at
30:45remember that emotions never take
30:48motions are important but reason is more
30:51important at the University and reason
30:53is more important for coming up the
30:54right policies that are gonna bring
30:55about the things you want to see so
30:56that's the to me the great tragedy about
30:58what happened is they brought about the
31:00opposite of what they sought to achieve
31:03precisely because they let emotions
31:05overrun their their reasoning processes
31:08yeah so we all each have a role to play
31:11here if we all speak the truth the truth
31:13will prevail
31:14right but thanks for that question thank
31:17you yeah yes sir good morning this thing
31:21on it it's great there's so many
31:22questions I'm gonna fight it morning
31:23ma'am cadet renounce key VMI so all
31:26right and opposed this question that I
31:27asked my very left-leaning girlfriend
31:28who strongly says universities are not
31:32suppressing free speech and my question
31:34you is I'd heard of your case and but
31:36not the details so yeah were there any
31:39punishments or our punitive actions
31:41handed out to the students that hold
31:43these fire alarms cause this violence to
31:45occur because my thought processes is
31:47you're saying that you are promoting
31:50free speech by and inviting the speaker
31:51and that's all well and good but if at
31:53the end of the day there's no punishment
31:55for these illegal acts these harmful
31:58acts I feel like the universities are
32:00passively suppressing free speech by not
32:04punishing these criminal acts yeah it's
32:09a really good question you know
32:10Middlebury was criticized because
32:11because no one was suspended and I think
32:15one every everybody who was punished got
32:19a mark in the record of that with good
32:21behavior went away with the exception of
32:23one person one or two possibly have a
32:25permanent mark in the record that
32:26they're required to disclose if asked so
32:30some would say that's not a very severe
32:32punishment but to me when it comes down
32:34to as the rules were read to them and
32:37they were if there's no question they
32:39violated the rules so as an institution
32:43we had an obligation to to discipline
32:46them
32:46and I'm just afraid that maybe the long
32:49wrong lessons were learned because the
32:51same group of faculty supported the
32:53protests ought to shut down the
32:55disciplinary hearings so would you argue
32:57that's a passive suppression of free
32:59speech it does wind up being a passive
33:01suppressant I think it really does wind
33:03up being a passive suppression of free
33:05speech and I I think it amounts to
33:06educational malpractice in some sense
33:08because people don't take the right
33:09lessons away from it you know I'm a
33:11parent you may one day be parents
33:14someday too and the one thing you know
33:15about raising children is what your job
33:18is not to be like right sometimes you
33:21have to not be like to teach them the
33:22right things and I think we just have to
33:24have some some college administrators
33:27may have to take that lesson to heart
33:30but that's seen as like kind of
33:33oppressive
33:34to some members of the faculty this idea
33:38that there might be someone who knows
33:40better and the students that's a foreign
33:45concept to members of any military
33:46academy
33:47the idea that there's no hierarchy I
33:49mean you're not gonna tell your
33:50superiors how to think are you there's a
33:54real idea in some of the Roth's college
33:56campuses that the students know better
33:57we should listen to them so that's the
34:00kind of milieu in which these decisions
34:02have to be taken in that milieu I did
34:04not testify in those hearings thank you
34:10yes
34:17Kristensen Texas A&M University so you
34:20mentioned Richard Spencer so I wanted to
34:23ask your opinion so last year we had
34:25Richard Richard Spencer on our campus it
34:29was a you know bit of a situation there
34:31was protests on both sides it was on the
34:33day of a taps for a student who had
34:36passed away so this coming year he tried
34:40to so the university allowed him to come
34:42that time but this coming year he was
34:46going to come on the day of 9/11 so the
34:49university passed down that they if he
34:53was not invited by a student
34:54organization that they weren't going to
34:56allow him to come on campus just wanted
34:58to hear your opinion in terms of you
35:01know how that fits into the free speech
35:03stuff you're talking about you tell me
35:05something so he came to speak was it at
35:08the invitation of a student the end or
35:09did you just come and rent the space no
35:11so last year he came just of his own
35:15volition and but I mean there was a lot
35:19of there was support on both protests
35:22and counter protest there yeah you put
35:25your finger on something really
35:26important and this thing to take away
35:27there's a public-private distinction
35:29here that needs to be made and any
35:31private institution if a student
35:34organization doesn't sponsor you you
35:35don't get to speak but in a public
35:38institution I think they open their
35:39facilities to the general public and so
35:42you can't refuse someone who wants to
35:43speak there that means that Richard
35:45Spencer can come and speak at your
35:46institution without without any kind of
35:50institutional sponsorship and to me this
35:53is just really easy if you want to
35:54decide as a student what's worth
35:55listening to if no student organization
35:59and no faculty member is sponsoring the
36:02talk you probably don't need to go you
36:04may as well just ignore that because
36:05that's basically saying there's no
36:07intellectual content to this that
36:10someone is going to defend and that's
36:14that's why to me what happened to
36:16Middlebury is so different because
36:17Charles Murray is not Richard Spencer
36:19and not Milo he's not
36:22well let's just leave it at that if
36:26there's a difference did I answer your
36:28question um I was kind of wondering like
36:31so in terms of do you think that that's
36:34the line that can be so the university
36:35decided to he was gonna try to even
36:38though again this year on 9/11 he was
36:40gonna try to come you know uninvited not
36:43even having a facility use was gonna you
36:45know planning to apparently march
36:48through the streets you know that type
36:49of thing do you think that that's the
36:51point where we can cut off and say you
36:54know that's a boundary work and say this
36:57person shouldn't be coming or where do
36:59you draw that line because there's a you
37:01know a fear of a slippery slope there
37:03yeah I do have a fear of a slippery
37:05slope and so I'm pretty much a free
37:07speech at absolutist because when you
37:08think about how you're going to put
37:09together the committee that decides who
37:11gets to speak and immediately gets very
37:12complicated but there might be a simple
37:14solution and you would know your lawyers
37:18would know whether this is legal why
37:20can't you just say you can't do an event
37:23on campus without sponsorship by a
37:26member of the community I don't see why
37:29that would be illegal I I understand
37:31it's been otherwise but maybe that could
37:32be changed that would be my response
37:35thank you you're welcome
37:38damn hello ma'am kick hula from BMI I
37:43have a quick question kind of building
37:44off the kidnapped performing were there
37:47any backup or support from the
37:49University from your University after
37:50this incident did they issue a statement
37:52did they give you any support after
37:55you're essentially assaulted by these
37:57students or was it just as mentioned
38:00earlier they just kind of like drift off
38:02did you
38:03the president came to the hospital that
38:07evening with me issued a statement
38:11apologizing both to Charles Moran to me
38:14but from that point on it I felt pretty
38:19invisible and the reason I was invisible
38:22is because if you're going to support
38:24shutting down speech you don't want to
38:27acknowledge that what happened to me is
38:29connected to what happened inside the
38:30hall you want to say oh those are
38:32outside forces and they were outside
38:34forces students invited an tyfa to
38:36campus they were not inside the hall
38:39because you had to have an idea to see
38:41this to see the speech but people do
38:43want to separate that out and say yeah
38:46that happened outside we condemned that
38:48but what happened inside in inside the
38:50hall is fine and to me that's a specious
38:53argument because the two are directly
38:55connected because anytime you shut down
38:57speech is an invitation to violence
38:59that's why we have is heated and
39:01contested discussions it's a way of
39:04resolving disputes and disagreements
39:05without pulling out guns or swords or
39:07having a duel so so I think I wish they
39:13would have acknowledged publicly my
39:16injury precisely to underscore the point
39:18that shutting down speech is never a
39:21good idea thank you ma'am
39:26yes novara um I'm gonna Ingram from
39:30Norwich University and I've seen a lot
39:37of divide within my campus between
39:38professors and students and it has come
39:40to the point in some classrooms that
39:42professors will shy away from political
39:43questions and even students themselves
39:47will like not talk to that professor I
39:50was wondering if you have any like steps
39:52on trying to take the hostility out of
39:54our campus because I have seen it grow
39:58within the last couple of years and how
40:00you can just say just listen to them
40:03like even if you don't agree they still
40:07have a voice because a lot of that is
40:09like shut down just through the demeanor
40:11of the college it's a really good point
40:14and she's doing with a prom in Vermont
40:15that many of you probably don't deal
40:17with is it just Vermont you know it
40:19could be Europe the United States it's a
40:22bunch of Social Democrats we elect
40:25Bernie Sanders so that's going to make
40:28your situation unique I think in some
40:31ways different from other people's but
40:32what can you do well on any college
40:35campus there are going to be professors
40:36who think like I do
40:38so take their classes if you can that's
40:40the thing that was so startling to me
40:41about what happened is I don't
40:42experience this kind of it I don't
40:45experience captive Minds in my classroom
40:48if you've read just love me oh she's
40:49great book the captive mind about the
40:51experience and under under communism
40:53that's a great book it should be on your
40:54syllabus syllabus somewhere captive
40:58minds our minds that just simply aren't
41:00open to reason and persuasion they know
41:02what they know they think what they
41:03think and and nothing can change that
41:05but in my classroom students know
41:09they're free to speak their minds and
41:10they're also free to speak to make
41:12mistakes and if someone offends someone
41:15which rarely happens I can't even I
41:17think once it's happened in my entire
41:18career
41:19then I just say apologize so we can move
41:22on
41:23and and let ideas collide and I think
41:28it's really possible to generate the
41:29kind of environment in the classroom and
41:31there are many other professors on my
41:33campus who have similar classroom
41:36experiences but I also know there are
41:38faculty my students tell me that don't
41:39do this where they think you need to
41:41know you've got a toe a particular party
41:45line if you're gonna get if you're going
41:46to get a good grade I'd avoid classes
41:49like that because you're being educated
41:51to learn to think for yourself you can't
41:53think for yourself as something's
41:54telling you what to think
41:57thank you yeah good morning
42:02my name is Kaitlin Kellerman from Texas
42:04A&M University um my question touches on
42:07actually the way that you answered the
42:09first question made me think you talked
42:11about how when dealing with emotionally
42:14charged situations when dealing with
42:16situations especially on college
42:17campuses where freedom of expression is
42:20controversial it's important to listen
42:23to reason as opposed to your emotions in
42:25order to promote that environment of
42:28free speech it got me thinking about one
42:31of our speakers yesterday who talked
42:33about and whose goal was to kind of
42:36reduce polarization and facilitate
42:39people's ability to have productive
42:40discussions by bringing people who are
42:43polarized together and having them
42:45relate to one another because his
42:47argument was that the way that you
42:50facilitate that open discussion is by
42:51building trust and by showing people
42:53that underneath their reason and their
42:56facts on the emotional level if they can
42:59relate as people and see that they have
43:00more in common than they have different
43:02that will I guess facilitate that open
43:05expression that open discussion and make
43:06people more open to freedom of
43:09expression
43:09mm-hm and I was wondering just kind of
43:11what your thoughts are on that dichotomy
43:13between recognizing that in emotionally
43:17charged situations you have to step back
43:19and remember that freedom and expression
43:21is important to our humanity versus also
43:24addressing and validate
43:26the emotions of the people who are in
43:27those situations in order to connect and
43:30have that productive meaningful dialogue
43:32yeah that's a really great question you
43:34articulated it really well I think it I
43:37think it just it just comes down to
43:40being empathetic if someone is an
43:42emotional distress you should listen to
43:44them
43:44validate the emotion and then say okay
43:47how can we improve this thing you're
43:50seeing and that's going to be a
43:51different sort of discussion than the
43:53emotions that come out of responding to
43:56some injustice and the problem I see is
43:59that some faculty members think that the
44:02expression of those emotions is the end
44:04of the education and end of education
44:06and I would disagree with them I don't
44:08think it's the end of education it's the
44:09beginning we want to harness our
44:11emotions in productive ways to both help
44:13us grow as human beings but also to make
44:17the world a better place because trust
44:19me when emotions drive politics nothing
44:24good ever comes from it if you have an
44:28example of an instance where there were
44:30emotions driving politics that produce
44:34something positive just sheer emotions
44:37and not reason there's plenty of motions
44:39in the American Founding right but
44:41they're channeling that into reasoning
44:43about what the best form of government
44:44might be I think they provide a great
44:47example for us all thank you thank you
44:51yes sir good morning ma'am VMI I was
44:57wondering kind of what you meant by
44:58educational malpractice that you
45:00mentioned earlier because I'm not really
45:02sure if you think there's a specific
45:03level where this breakdown on education
45:05occurs we've got a lot of people from
45:07very diverse backgrounds here at VMI I'm
45:09sure the military schools are very
45:12similar and the idea of shutting down
45:15the speech because we don't like what
45:17the person is saying to me at least I'm
45:19sure the other cadets here seems
45:20ludicrous and childish yes I'm just I'm
45:23wondering do you think that's I
45:25personally think that's kind of because
45:27the environment VMI creates in the old
45:29military schools where you learn very
45:31early on that basically the world
45:33doesn't revolve around you that your
45:35opinion isn't the only one that matters
45:36now
45:37to work with other people to accomplish
45:38your goals I was wondering if you think
45:41there is a specific level where this
45:42breakdown education occurs and how we
45:44could bring kind of those lessons to
45:46non-military campuses that's an
45:50excellent question and very well
45:52articulated and I'm glad to hear this
45:54wouldn't happen at VMI I sort of had a
45:56sense that was the case but but um it's
45:58good to hear it look to me it's really
46:01simple
46:01no one has apologized to me for being
46:04injured for injuring me contributing to
46:05injuring me so I don't need to punish
46:10someone I don't need to suspend someone
46:12I'd be really happy if I just got a
46:13public apology
46:15why because that's part of the
46:18educational experience right if you make
46:20a mistake and you're going to learn from
46:21it you need to own it and I don't think
46:26the students have owned it so that's
46:29what I'd like to see happen and I think
46:31that could be a really pause because the
46:32thing that concerns me most is not my
46:34injury but my students I want them to it
46:38was a horrible experience and I want
46:39them to learn the right things from it
46:41otherwise it's wasted so hopefully
46:45that's in process now and hopefully
46:46we'll get to a place where everybody
46:48learns something that can so would you
46:51think that what do you think that just
46:53teaching people to be accountable for
46:54their actions happen my husband maybe
47:00you have argument with your girlfriend
47:01about this when I say I just want an
47:03apology is like what do you mean they
47:05should all be punished you know they
47:06have to be able to accountable but I
47:08don't know I think acknowledging you've
47:09done something wrong is holding someone
47:11accountable you know you can have
47:13differences of opinion on that but it is
47:15a form of accountability as well is that
47:18going to be my response and I think it
47:19allows you to move on more when things
47:21are really divisive it's sort of like
47:24the concept behind the Truth and
47:25Reconciliation commissions if you
47:27followed those in South Africa and other
47:29places own up to it and then then you
47:32can move on okay thank you yeah
47:35yes sir wait we did that last where did
47:39my word am i young woman go there was a
47:43woman who is going to ask a question you
47:46must answer she decided not to she's
47:51white oh okay okay good
47:56I thought I was hoping she wouldn't
47:58decide not to ask a question yes sir
48:00good morning
48:01cadet Thomas from VMI in all these sort
48:05of interventions and shutting things
48:06down there's sort of a fundamental
48:08notion on the on the part of the
48:11protesters that this speech constitutes
48:13violence namely violence against
48:15minorities and marginalized communities
48:17yeah how do you sort of reason an open
48:20dialogue with people that believe that
48:22just by doing this you are committing
48:25violence against them how do you try to
48:28disarm that well there's some look there
48:30are some people you can't reason with
48:32you can't reason with the Spanish
48:34Inquisition you know it's not gonna get
48:37you anywhere so you want to pick the
48:38people you try to reason with but yeah
48:44that's a good good question yeah they're
48:48not they think there's there's a group
48:50of people who think reason is itself a
48:53tool of white supremacy so then you
48:56can't really have an argument but what I
48:58would point out to them and I think this
48:59has made an impact is people will say
49:01well Charles what Mairead he's fine but
49:03his ideas have been weaponized they're
49:04used to harm people of color I would say
49:07fair enough they have been weaponized
49:08but kimberlé crenshaw
49:10who's you know the author of
49:12intersectionality PR board do
49:16Jean Francois Lyotard the French
49:18post-structuralist
49:19those ideas have been weapons weaponized
49:21as well and we're not shutting them down
49:23so you have to ask the question on what
49:25grounds are you shutting certain
49:26speakers down and you have to come to
49:28the collusion it's just ideology and
49:30that has no place in a institution of
49:33higher learning
49:34so you can try that approach thank you
49:37very ideas on the web look who were the
49:39first social justice warriors Lady Anne
49:41ladies and gentlemen who were the first
49:44social justice warriors that affected
49:46the world
49:47the Bolsheviks they were social justice
49:52warriors seriously think about it
49:55thank you you're welcome
50:00yeah military - why do you think
50:03organizations such as the Southern
50:05Poverty Law are so effective in
50:07employing tactics such as groupthink and
50:10do you think that organizations such as
50:12this should be allowed to exist yes they
50:15definitely should be allowed to exist
50:16I'd like to see them modified their
50:18practices and I did have the opportunity
50:19to say that directly to Richard Cohen
50:21the president of the Southern Poverty
50:23Law Center who testified with me I had
50:25to sit next to him that you know there's
50:31some clear proponents of hate but there
50:35are people on that list that do not
50:36belong there and their lives have become
50:37living hell's so I told him you need to
50:41take that down
50:42he took my card and some will talk so
50:46maybe they'll be moving in the right
50:49direction why do they do it they're
50:50doing it to raise money what we've made
50:53progress
50:54you know they got rid of the Ku Klux
50:55Klan pretty much so not they want to
50:58raise money they've got to find new
50:59enemies and I think they've crossed some
51:02lines that shouldn't be crossed and so
51:04doing but people seem to be realizing
51:07that so hopefully we'll see things move
51:08in a positive direction
51:10thank you yes ma'am one more question
51:12seems ironic to me that with all the
51:15emphasis on anti-bullying in schools and
51:18and and domestic violence and things
51:20like that in campus I mean it's it's
51:21rampant do you think there's a
51:22possibility that that correlation could
51:25occur that this is actually bullying and
51:26a big scale when you shut somebody down
51:29and use salt and so on and so forth so
51:30is there a possibility that with all
51:32this education is going on in K through
51:3312 that that could have an impact on on
51:36the future K through 12 education is we
51:39have a civic education crisis in our
51:41country and this was a topic of
51:42discussion in the Senate as well and
51:45that is part of the problem
51:47I mean some of my students really don't
51:50understand the precious gift they've
51:53been given as Americans with our
51:56Constitution and how it compares to all
51:58these other regimes around the world in
52:00other words do you think the United
52:00States is a bad place
52:02and there's a lot of things wrong with
52:04it I would challenge them to show me a
52:06place that's better
52:07but they're not thinking that way
52:09they're not they're not educated so they
52:11have to be educated to come to the
52:12realization of the precious inheritance
52:15that they do they do have to thank you
52:22[Music]
52:28dr. Stanger first thank you for sharing
52:31your personal story with us and for some
52:33great insights about free expression and
52:37the proper role in academia and you set
52:41it up set us up well for our next
52:43exercise glad to hear thank you thank
52:45you so much thank you thank you very
52:47much for your attention
52:48[Applause]
52:58you

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