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Men vs. Society: Insights from Dr. Warren Farrell — Transcript

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0:00men feeling that they've been told
0:01masculinity is toxic that they're part
0:03of the patriarchy that they're the
0:05future is female if a man um explains
0:08what his problem um if if he if he
0:10doesn't share his feelings he's
0:12repressed and um that's a problem but if
0:16he shares his feelings he's mansplaining
0:18if he reaches out too quickly to a woman
0:21he's a sexual harasser it's not quick
0:23enough he's a wimp these all create
0:26anger in men and nobody understands that
0:29anger is vulnerabilities
0:33[Applause]
0:35mask all right Dr frell welcome back to
0:38the man talk show how you doing today
0:40doing very well and I'm so glad to be
0:42back with you I had a remember a really
0:45wonderful connection with you last time
0:47yeah we had a really good conversation
0:48and I I hadn't realized that it had been
0:52so long we had you you were here in 2018
0:55yes which is crazy I thought it was just
0:56a couple years ago but I guess I think
0:59uh when both of us were teenagers I
1:01think it was that's
1:03right I was just graduating high school
1:05yeah yeah yeah I was saying a lot had
1:07changed and I was like I think you know
1:09we talked in 2020 2021 but no it was
1:122018 uh and so a lot has happened since
1:15then which is marvelous but there's so
1:18much I wanted to talk to you about and
1:20um we're we're g to talk about your new
1:22book but what I really want to start
1:24with is what's happening with men
1:27culturally and so in your estimation
1:30start broad what's happening to young
1:33men in today's culture and what are some
1:35of the forces that you think are are
1:37pressing on the male psyche in Western
1:41Society I'd say probably what I found
1:44when I did the research for the boy
1:45Crisis book is
1:47unfortunately even more true today um I
1:51hear more boys today saying some version
1:54of I wish I hadn't been born
1:56male um and saying that because they
1:59hear in school that if you're born male
2:03you're part of the patriarchy which
2:05means that you you know you're part of a
2:07system in which the rules were made to
2:08benefit men at the expense of women
2:11you're an oppressor and um and the women
2:13are oppressed they're hearing that the
2:16future is female uh they're hearing U
2:19masculinity being described as toxic not
2:22sometimes toxic and not women and men
2:25can both have toxic masculinity and
2:27femininity that would be fine U but when
2:29they here it's only males described as
2:32being toxic it's just sort of like they
2:35they you know look inside of themselves
2:36and they say you know um they look at De
2:39if they're in college which uh they're
2:42they're hearing um Dei and Dei of course
2:45diversity equity and inclusion but they
2:47are feeling wait a minute this is
2:49diversity but it doesn't include me it
2:52doesn't um Equity but it doesn't include
2:55me and inclusion it definitely doesn't
2:58include me and the evidence is all
3:00around U the gender White House gender
3:03policy Council this is a gender policy
3:06Council explicitly excludes men uh and
3:11boys uh from their considerations so you
3:14you how can you have a gender policy
3:15Council that excludes men which means by
3:18the way it excludes gay men and it
3:20excludes black men there's no group of
3:22men that are more in Greater Jeopardy as
3:25a as a group uh than black males in
3:27today's society um
3:30and there's U you know and and gay men
3:33um you know have um many many challenges
3:36still from discrimination on many levels
3:38and yet the the discrimination against
3:41gay men and the challenges of black men
3:42are not being considered by the White
3:44House gender policy Council you know but
3:46the average boy doesn't know that about
3:47the White House gender policy Council
3:49but he does know what he hears in school
3:52um about um you know okay um if you take
3:55initiatives you know he's 13 14 15 years
3:58of age he's just beginning to feel his
4:01hormones go and he knows that if he when
4:03he looks around the class um maybe he's
4:0515 um and he's um seeing about half of
4:08the women in the class are women that
4:10he'd be interested in being sexual with
4:12within you know um with you know a fair
4:15amount of delay like 20 seconds um and
4:18the and you know and yet um he knows
4:21that if he moves too quickly he's a
4:23sexual harasser if he doesn't move
4:25quickly enough he's considered a wimp
4:27and you know the guy is actually being
4:29successful with women um you know are
4:32are the ones that move quickly not the
4:34ones that move slowly and so um you know
4:37but if he's especially if he's been
4:39brought up by a mother he's usually very
4:40sensitive and very sensitive to women's
4:43needs and cares and so he doesn't want
4:44to move too quickly and he doesn't want
4:46to offend anybody and yet um he sees
4:49that he ends up being the loser um and
4:51so it's just so many conflicts and the
4:55challenge is you know that you know the
4:57average boy in high school and or even
5:00in college is not reading the boy Crisis
5:02book and figuring out what's you know
5:05what's going on inside and that this
5:06isn't just me isolated you know so many
5:10of the letters that I get from boys who
5:13young men usually who eventually do read
5:15the boy crisis is that I feel like you
5:18are a spy in my life that you've that
5:21you see what I only thought I saw and
5:24that nobody else saw and I and it's made
5:27it's made me feel a lot less lonely in
5:29fact these These are words that since
5:32you and I spoke last have come exactly
5:34from a male who said that um be before
5:38he um read the boy crisis he had been
5:43um um working to be a mass shooter and
5:47he had a 52-page Manifesto he had drawn
5:50up and he had been part of um I Chan and
5:54um which is a group that trains that you
5:56know that's had had a number of the mass
5:59Shooters in the past and he was you know
6:01going to make his mark on the world
6:03because as far as he was concerned he
6:05was worthless and he wanted to stand out
6:07in some way and and when he felt seen
6:11for the first time when he read the book
6:15that it was then that he felt like oh I
6:17did you know if I this I'm Not Alone um
6:21I'm not isolated and that is really what
6:23turned him um around and um I mean it
6:26was so happy to have saved in a way his
6:29not just his life but as he said you
6:31know it's not just my life you saved
6:33it's the life of you know I was hoping
6:36for hundreds of people to be the number
6:37one Mass shooter you know in the country
6:40after the last you know be even more so
6:42than the Las Vegas shooter uh type of
6:44thing and so it's this type of
6:47loneliness and isolation you know that
6:49in addition to the pandemic and in
6:52addition to um feeling like you're
6:54you're the one who's toxic that this is
6:57just alienating many boys you know
7:00usually when boys go to college um
7:02they're usually they they lean Democrat
7:05and um and so they're not but today
7:09increasing the boys are moving over to
7:11the Republican party uh so we see for
7:14the first time in American history this
7:16enormous gender gap between uh young
7:19males um going increasingly toward um
7:22supporting Trump and young females
7:24saying what how can you possibly support
7:27Trump you know and going much more to
7:29KLA Harris and um and so that creates a
7:33a gender divide in the family between
7:35boyfriends and girlfriends between um
7:38and between men and women in in general
7:40that is you know that is very um very
7:43challenging and very um sad U because
7:46this loneliness is something that nobody
7:48wants and when boys are lonely they
7:51often become they often turn to porn
7:53they often turn to video games and you
7:56know um you know you can look at porn
7:58and say a certain amount of porn is fine
8:01but porn like video games when you get
8:03too much into them they become addictive
8:05and they also but for boys the porn
8:07becomes very dysfunctional U because
8:10what you as you get into porn you um you
8:16become excited the first time you see a
8:18certain level but then you need more and
8:20more stimulus and as you get more and
8:23more stimulous when you end up going out
8:25with a real woman um then oftentimes if
8:28you start behav like is it like is in
8:31the porn things that you've become
8:34addicted to um the woman feels very much
8:36treated like an object because she's
8:38being treated like an object and so she
8:41then rejects him which only increases
8:44his frustration his loneliness and his
8:46feeling like he's a loser and so these
8:48are some of the deeply sad things that
8:50are happening uh today um that were even
8:54happening to even a greater degree than
8:57when the boy Crisis book came out in
8:582008 team when you and I last
9:02talked there's so many good points in
9:04there that you touched on that that I
9:05wanted to kind of hit on in this
9:07conversation one of them is almost this
9:10um this systematic denial of maless male
9:16preferences biological male
9:18differences and I find this part very
9:21fascinating and it's been a hard line
9:23for me to walk in terms of I know I have
9:27my my very um I have my personal
9:31perspective which is rooted in biology
9:34um
9:37and here's what I'll take this I had
9:39Scott Galloway on the show who I really
9:41I really like a lot of what he
9:43says I think he's he's doing a great
9:45service in terms of bringing up a lot of
9:47stuff that young men are going through
9:48he resonates with a lot of men um I've
9:51also had men like Richard Reeves who is
9:52doing some amazing work now with the
9:54institute for boys and men um who I want
9:57to have back on the show um but but in
10:00the interview with Scott at one point uh
10:04he he brought up that that masculinity
10:07is just a social construct and and I was
10:10like well hold on hold like whoa whoa
10:13whoa like back up the train like how do
10:14you separate the biological
10:18underpinnings of our male bodies from
10:23our expression of our maleness which
10:25happens to be our masculinity right and
10:27so for me it's a it's a both and
10:30situation but our culture has become so
10:33polarized that to say that yes society
10:36and social norms will influence your
10:39expression of your masculinity and you
10:41know how you were raised and Etc can
10:43certainly play a role on that but also
10:46that your biological makeup you know if
10:48you have zero testosterone versus if you
10:51have you know a thousand uh I don't
10:54remember the exact measurement like
10:57milliliters per Mill leaders or whatever
10:59it is you are going to you're going to
11:03have to Grapple a little differently
11:05with how you express yourself you know
11:07and so why is it that from your
11:10perspective why do you think that
11:11there's this kind of
11:15um maybe we can call it dismantling of
11:18maleness I'm sure that that probably
11:19comes along with the patriarchy
11:21conversation but why do you think that
11:22there's sort of this negation of the
11:24biological underpinnings of what makes
11:27up a man and what makes up a woman
11:30yeah I mean it's really just so
11:33inaccurate um I mean what you know
11:35people sometimes say to me is that
11:37biology or is it's you know
11:38socialization and I say yes wait a
11:41minute that's what do you mean by that I
11:44say it's about 80% biology and about 80%
11:47socialization and they go wait a minute
11:50your math is really
11:52bad I go it's because it's interactive
11:56um you know your your testosterone um
11:59affects is has um is buil affects your
12:02dopamine affects your desire when you
12:04look at a a beautiful woman uh you see
12:08you you have feelings that beautiful
12:10women don't have to nearly the same
12:12degree about wanting sex with with a man
12:16and you know um I'm wearing a belt now
12:18and that belt is um uh the belt of a of
12:22a buck elk um um horns and and in among
12:26Buck Elks the alpha female I'm sorry the
12:30female um seeks out for reproduction the
12:33alpha male and the and the alpha male um
12:37in order and the alpha male is the male
12:39with the biggest longest um wreck and so
12:44but to get that biggest longest rack uh
12:46you have to exhaust 30% of your Nutri
12:49nutrients minerals and calcium um and if
12:52you don't immediately after um you um
12:55having sex if you don't immediately get
12:57rid of that rack you have a very good
12:59chance as the buck elk of dying from
13:02malnutrition if if if that if you don't
13:05replenish that um nutrition deficiency
13:09before the winter sets in um and so the
13:12theme behind all that is that men's
13:15weakness is our facade of
13:17strength you that we you know that we
13:20build up this facade because why because
13:23we get love then women are attracted to
13:26men who are successful and when when it
13:30comes down to marrying a man um it's
13:33very rare that a woman is desirous of
13:36marrying she may live with have sex with
13:39but very rare that a woman is desirous
13:41of marrying a short man that's living in
13:44his family's basement uh unemployed but
13:47a real sweetheart of a man um no way um
13:52you know she may if he's tall and
13:54good-look she'll have sex with him but
13:56not get married to him until she is
14:00feeling that maybe he's go you know
14:02maybe he's not earning enough money at
14:04the time but he's you know he's starting
14:06a big business that she has faith in or
14:08is becoming a lawyer um just has to pass
14:11the bar and you know that type of thing
14:13um it is very rare for women to marry a
14:15man who they believe will always earn
14:18less money than she it is very rare to
14:22for a woman to marry a man who says you
14:24know you're you're very ambitious um
14:28let's you and I get married because you
14:30can earn the money and I can take care
14:31of the children full-time um I wouldn't
14:34earn much money um but um you know I'll
14:37just do a reversal of roles with you um
14:41or um uh you're a really nice guy but is
14:46what he normally gets now a really wise
14:48woman who really wants to go who wants
14:50to be at haveit all woman um by a haveit
14:53all woman I mean have a very successful
14:56career have a happy marriage and have um
14:59CH children that are brought up well
15:01would seek out a man exactly like that
15:05uh one that would um choose to be very
15:08happy to raise the children uh while she
15:10raised money and they reverse roles and
15:13the chances are fairly good that um most
15:16women even very ambitious women will
15:18come home for the recitals for the you
15:21know for the special occasions and take
15:23time out for that the children would um
15:27children raised predominantly by men
15:29partic um especially in situations like
15:31that do very well both girls and boys
15:34especially the boys um and so it's it's
15:37a win-win situation for the children for
15:39the mother and for the father um but
15:42what has the one thing that has to
15:44happen that often doesn't happen in
15:46situations like that um starts with the
15:49word respect uh very often the woman at
15:53that you know party will see some man
15:55that is really doing very well at a
15:57young age um and start to begin to feel
16:00attracted to him and then look at that
16:03him compared to the husband at home who
16:04isn't earning much of anything um and
16:07that's a a pull for her so if she
16:09doesn't have respect for this man who's
16:12at home parenting full-time um she um
16:16that respect without it's almost
16:18impossible for a woman to love a man she
16:21doesn't respect and almost every woman
16:24will will agree with that and so um and
16:27and men who um are not respected uh they
16:30feel it they feel it intuitively and so
16:34that's um that's the Big Challenge and
16:36so uh this is this is against our
16:39biology um but it is very functional and
16:43so the things um because if you know if
16:46we really want to have uh women sharing
16:49um top level positions in society um as
16:53often as they do and feeling that they
16:55have had you know the experience of
16:57having children this is a way to go that
16:59very few people consider and that's a
17:02combination because it's um you're we're
17:05really working against our natural
17:08biology if it was you know what I'm
17:10talking about makes intellectual common
17:12sense and some people can do it um but
17:17it doesn't come nearly as easily as a um
17:22a man earning um significant money and
17:26the woman being home full-time or doing
17:28some combination of being full-time with
17:30the children and full-time with the
17:31workplace you like working part-time and
17:34so um to to say that social it's all
17:38socialization is I'm a you know there's
17:40very few things that I feel are right or
17:42wrong but that's just plain wrong yeah
17:44it's it's interesting because I think
17:46you know there's this
17:48um I think evolutionary psychology has
17:52has taken the the sort of front and
17:54center in a lot of conversations around
17:57dating and relationships in the last few
17:59years especially on the internet and
18:01it's a kind of like LoveHate
18:02relationship that a lot of people have
18:04with it because people can see that
18:07there's validity to a lot of it right
18:08like what you're describing is that most
18:10women want to date up and to the right
18:12they want to date men who are of equal
18:15or greater status to them or at the very
18:18least have the um have the skills have
18:22the possibility of of doing those things
18:25right of being able to procure um you
18:28know wealth and and status and Etc and
18:31so it it's fascinating to me because
18:34that seems to be Taboo in our culture
18:38right it's like you can't say the thing
18:41anymore you can't say that that is what
18:44most women and you can't say every
18:46single woman but for the for the
18:48majority of women that's what they want
18:50and what I find fascinating is you know
18:51my my wife has a lot of very um
18:54successful you know women in her life
18:57and they all say the same thing that
18:58that's what they're looking for yeah and
19:00it doesn't doesn't matter how successful
19:02they are it doesn't matter how much
19:04they've achieved or accomplished or how
19:06much Social Status and clout that they
19:08have how big their Instagram profiles
19:09are how successful they are and wherever
19:12they still are wanting a man who is up
19:16and to the right yes and
19:18so but but there seems to be this battle
19:21also going on within culture that says
19:23there's no biological difference between
19:25men and women and that's kind of that
19:28that's always been a little bit
19:30perplexing for me personally you know
19:32and where I've kind of landed on it I'm
19:34curious to get your take is that there's
19:37this it's not just like a a gender War
19:39that's going on there's there's this
19:41power battle that seems to be happening
19:43between men and women as society and
19:47culture has evolved you know and we're
19:50in this sort of very liberal experiment
19:55that's kind of playing out and happening
19:57where objective reality is something
20:02that um some people really believe in
20:04and some people just genuinely don't um
20:07and there seems to be this movement
20:10where a whole group of people have put
20:14subjective reality right this is how I
20:17feel above any type of
20:20objective reality truth right this is
20:23what we can all objectively see this is
20:26what we can all objectively verify um
20:29and and so I think that that plays a big
20:32role in in it in the sense that there's
20:35kind of this battle between objective
20:37reality and subjective reality going on
20:39right how do I feel about something how
20:41do I view it versus this is what I can
20:44observe this is what I can observe right
20:46this is what we can all see so I'm
20:48curious to get your take on that and and
20:49if there's I mean obviously there's
20:51other pieces that play into it um but
20:55one what's your take on that and then
20:57two
20:59how do men or how can men operate in the
21:02face of some of this because I think the
21:05predeliction is to like go to war right
21:07is
21:08like yeah I I won't go down that rabbit
21:10hole too too much but the the
21:12predeliction seems to be for a lot of
21:13men to like go to war on you know the
21:16the feminists or the the people that
21:19believe this type of rhetoric so what
21:21what's your thoughts on all that well
21:22two things um one is just thinking about
21:26this for a moment if men and women
21:28were're pretty much the same uh then U
21:31we maybe would test this out by having
21:34half of our NFL football teams have 50%
21:38women and 50% men and the other half
21:40have all males um and then maybe or
21:44maybe a third a third a third and the
21:45other um third be all females and then
21:48see who would win the Championships um
21:51you know it's just common sense T ten
21:53tennis rather than having um a females p
21:57tennis and males p tennis they'd all
21:58play tennis um in in equal numbers or we
22:02would just have one Tennis League and
22:04whoever you know worked their way to the
22:06top um we would um do that you know when
22:10um and so there's and then that would
22:12show that we're really equal if there
22:13were equal numbers of women that as the
22:16top football players or the top tennis
22:17players or the top swimmers or the top
22:19boxers um that so if you can't see the
22:23you know the Ridiculousness of that
22:25possibility um you know that that you
22:28know I have nothing more to say to you
22:30it's like it's like so obvious that it
22:33almost doesn't need saying but it's
22:35amazing that it needs saying so the next
22:38thing that's far more valuable I think
22:40for every person listening to understand
22:44um is what I call in the the role mate
22:46to soulmate book the um this this
22:52success love tension that the qualities
22:56it takes to be successful at work
22:59Our intention with almost the opposite
23:02of the qualities it takes to be
23:04successful in love and that is really
23:08important I'll explain that more in a
23:10sec but that's really important for
23:12every man and every woman to understand
23:15um because if a woman or a man becom
23:18successful at work and let's say they're
23:21um a top executive at Boeing um and
23:25they're looking for a Better Door
23:27supplier
23:28and the um and so there good reference
23:31good reference there are 40
23:33people competing with to supply a Better
23:37Door for Boeing and the um and so as
23:42you're the CEO you know listening to
23:44these you know 15 different competitive
23:47salespeople your job as a CEO is to
23:50beginning as as the person is talking to
23:52say to yourself some version of um okay
23:55is this you know what type of reputation
23:57does this person have have I have I
23:58vetted this person well um how does this
24:01proposal for the doorf uh for a Better
24:04Door uh fit into the infrastructure that
24:06we already have what about the
24:08infrastructure in Japan what about the
24:10infrastructure um you know that we've
24:12among the people we've let go who do we
24:14need to keep a hold of um you know and
24:17and lots of questions like that so what
24:19you're doing to be a successful CEO is
24:23your learning to master the art of self
24:26listening listening to yourself create
24:29questions objections yes buts while the
24:33other person is talking even as you're
24:35absorbing a fair amount of what the
24:37other person is saying um now you so to
24:40do that that's a a positive thing if
24:43you're a lawyer you're doing the same
24:45type of thing you're listening to the um
24:47opposing attorney and you're figuring
24:49out in your mind's eye what's the weak
24:51argument or how can I distort that
24:53argument to make it seem weaker than it
24:55is and then come in with my with my um
24:57retell a and if you don't do that you
25:00haven't represented your client well um
25:03but if you do that you've represented
25:05your client well and you've also learned
25:07to be a professional uh self- listener
25:09and distorter um and so now take that
25:13successful lawyer that successful CEO
25:16and bring her or him home and they
25:19listen and their spouse says how's your
25:22day at work sweetie oh it's been really
25:24challenging um you know I've had this
25:26problem with this client it says same
25:28problem I've had before well sweetie why
25:31don't you just give up that client so
25:33you're moving into problem solving mode
25:36or you moving into self- listening what
25:38can I suggest particularly if you're a
25:40male but also if you're a female and
25:42you're in that CEO problem solving um
25:45category instead of listening to the
25:48person that you love and just letting
25:50them talk it through and vent it and
25:53really holding on to what their
25:55complaint is and not for not self-
25:58listening not forming in your own mind's
26:00eyes Solutions you can you can you can
26:03give um you are then a bad spouse
26:07because you are um you are planning
26:11Solutions or planning criticisms or
26:13planning advice um while the other
26:15person is talking and if you do this
26:17with your children the same type of
26:19thing um you know when your when your
26:21children are complaining the F just like
26:24your wife or husband the first thing
26:26that it's important to do is to listen
26:29now this problem
26:31is just Universal ubiquitous am among
26:35successful women and men um however it
26:39is even more challenging for men because
26:42men have a protector Instinct toward
26:45women um which is why you know we uh
26:49when women and children
26:50are killed that's mentioned in the New
26:53York Times and it's you know how many
26:55men are killed or often skipped over uh
26:57that things so we have a protector
26:59Instinct and when when a woman that we
27:02love um is hurt or a child is hurting um
27:07our natural instinct is to go um is to
27:10solve that problem is to put a band it's
27:13like it's like our partner is bleeding
27:15and how dare you even think of letting
27:17our partner bleed without putting a
27:18Band-Aid on it so women when you feel
27:22sort of like a a a man solving your
27:25problem because um you've mentioned that
27:28you have a problem uh this is because he
27:30has been programmed to not to to be in
27:34great pain if you bleed his job his
27:38innate job is to to the way if he loves
27:42you and he means he loves you he'd give
27:45up his life for you um and certainly put
27:47a Band-Aid on you um and that is solve
27:50your problem rather than let you suffer
27:52with that problem that is not what I
27:55advise men to do it's not what I advise
27:57anyone to do the best when I work with
28:00CEOs or lawyers in particular and other
28:02top level people male and female um what
28:06I reframe what solving the problem is
28:09that solving the problem is listening to
28:12the problem being expressed and solving
28:15the problem is not solving the problem
28:18and when your wife or your husband asks
28:20you for Solutions just say well what do
28:23you think are some solutions and then
28:26after you've created your own Solutions
28:28then um then maybe you can add something
28:33I think I remember hearing somebody say
28:35I have no idea where this quote is
28:37attributed so I'm sure the internet will
28:39will pick this up for me but something
28:40along the lines of if you don't have the
28:42answer to a problem it's because you
28:44don't understand the problem properly
28:47and it's this notion that the more that
28:49we can go into a problem the more clear
28:52an answer makes itself um and so yeah I
28:56love what you're saying there
28:58why do you think it is just coming back
29:00on some of the things that you mentioned
29:02before why do you think it is that we're
29:05seeing this gender divide in in politics
29:08um that more and more especially young
29:10men are going to the right the
29:12conservative side and more and more
29:14young women are going to the left to the
29:16to the liberal side ABS first of all
29:19that is accurate we are seeing exactly
29:21that um in and also historically
29:24speaking we haven't seen that men and
29:26women who chose to marry each other be
29:28long-term Partners almost always had
29:30very similar political views um and you
29:33know long time ago it was just the man's
29:35political view that counted but now it's
29:37you know um it's obviously both sexist
29:39political views that count fortunately
29:41and so um the U so what's happen What
29:44been happening recently is the things
29:46that I was mentioning when we first
29:47started talking about men feeling that
29:50they've been told masculinity is toxic
29:52that that they're part of the patriarchy
29:54that they're the future is female um
29:57that um if a man um explains what his
30:00problem um if if he if he doesn't share
30:02his feelings he's he's um repressed and
30:06um that's a problem but if he shares his
30:08feelings he's mansplaining um if he
30:11reaches out too quickly to a woman um
30:14he's a sexual harasser it's not quick
30:17enough he's a wimp men are feeling like
30:20if Dei doesn't include him all the
30:22things that I mentioned before these all
30:24create anger in men and um and and
30:28nobody understands that anger is
30:32vulnerability's
30:34mask and so the way anger is met is to
30:38be angry at people who are angry um as
30:42opposed to understand that they are
30:44vulnerable and have empathy for the
30:46vulnerability beneath that anger hidden
30:49by that anger and so the so this by not
30:54being expressed um is leaving so many
30:57men just with nobody seeing their
31:00vulnerability angry and the one person
31:04in the world who expresses anger really
31:07very well um is President Trump who is a
31:10potential leader and so they're they're
31:12hearing his you know he doesn't let
31:14anything stop him and he's you know just
31:17um and you know and this and he's not
31:20caught up in Dei and and feminism and
31:24you know and um creating councils for
31:26just women and girls and women so he may
31:28not say much of anything about it um but
31:31he sure doesn't he doesn't cater to
31:34women and feminism in the same way that
31:37the Democratic party is so they're
31:39moving to the right because it's the
31:40only place that they that is
31:43expressing um the anger in a way that
31:47they are identifying with and also not
31:50sort of making turning you into um
31:53having to feel that the world is about
31:56women good men bad all the domestic
31:58violence that happens from men to women
32:01even though it's about 5050 and but no
32:03feminist will tell you that and so a lot
32:07is not clear for the men they just know
32:10it's almost more like I can't stand that
32:13the Democratic party is against me and
32:16all for women as much as it is for um an
32:21an an admiration for Trump although
32:23there is a certain amount of admiration
32:25for him because he is so absolutely
32:28certain or appears to be absolutely
32:30certain about what he says and there's
32:32sort of an outlet in that um but it's
32:35definitely true that this and this is
32:37creating a lot of problems not only in
32:39um husband and wife or you know male
32:41female Partnerships U but it's also
32:44creating problems in families um that
32:46you know that you go to you go to for
32:48Thanksgiving and you're hoping to be you
32:50know why do you visit your family of
32:52Thanksgiving your aspiration is for a
32:54deeper love um but then somebody says
32:57you know oh man man I'm supporting Trump
32:59and somebody else says oh my God how
33:01could you even you know think about that
33:04um and you know and so suddenly there's
33:06there's um a feeling of um this person
33:10has bad values um how could I even love
33:13this person how can I even be a part of
33:15this person's family and nobody teaches
33:18you how to do what I hope I teach in the
33:21role mate to soulmate course which is
33:23how to listen to people with totally
33:25different perspectives uh without
33:27becoming defensive and how to allow them
33:30to feel heard and seen in the way that
33:32they feel heard and seen uh well I teach
33:35this largely to couples about everyday
33:37life um I also teach couples in
33:41something that I call from Civil War to
33:44civil dialogue um helping them do this
33:46with people in their family that they
33:48disagree with
33:50politically yeah it's it's interesting
33:53because I do think that if I and I've
33:55said this before like I think if I was a
33:57young man in today's culture I get why
34:02so many of them are moving to the right
34:05and I think in in many ways there's a
34:09lack of belonging and welcoming on the
34:13left in the cultural conversation today
34:16for young men and for masculinity in
34:18general um because it's the villain you
34:21know I I did a I did a video recently
34:24about man shaming and what I've called
34:25the patriarchy virus the patriarchy
34:27virus is this notion that um that sort
34:30of infects the rhetoric of men are bad
34:33men are the problem and anything
34:36socially or culturally that is wrong in
34:38our
34:39society it's because of men and I think
34:42that for a lot of guys when they look at
34:45the left that and I'm very moderate
34:49right so I'm I was very liberal growing
34:51up I went to you know college for a
34:53music degree um I I was like in the most
34:56liberal spaces Poss possible the most
34:58Progressive spaces possible where you go
35:00to college uh in Canada in British
35:03Columbia and so you know I got a degree
35:05in music I was an opera singer and those
35:08are some of the most like Progressive
35:10liberal spaces that you could possibly
35:12be in you know I was I was definitely
35:15the minority being a a straight white
35:17guy you know it's like I was 100%
35:21straight yeah exactly right it was just
35:23like a it was a very strange very
35:25strange thing um but I I understand this
35:30feeling that I think a lot of men have
35:32when they look at the liberal
35:34conversation and see a lot of the
35:38narrative pointing towards you're the
35:40problem right you're the issue
35:42specifically you white men and so I
35:45think a lot of guys you know and I've
35:47talked about this as well like
35:48psychologically shame is it can be
35:52something that you deploy to try and
35:54behavioral correct people but it never
35:57has the the lasting effect that you want
35:59because it will always create resentment
36:01and animosity and I think that's a big
36:04part of what's happened here is that
36:05there's just resentment and animosity
36:07that's continued to build you know
36:10between men and women socially and it's
36:13reached this kind of Tipping Point you
36:16know and
36:17so excuse me so I I get why a lot of men
36:21are why why a lot of young men are
36:24leaving the the progressive side because
36:27there's this sort of narrative of you're
36:29not welcome here or wanted here or if
36:31you are welcome or wanted here you have
36:33to operate in the way that we tell you
36:35to this is how you have to be a man and
36:38I think for a lot of guys that you know
36:41have studied masculinity or read myths
36:44about being a man or you know anything
36:47that has to do with masculinity it's
36:48like well that's not necessarily how
36:50that works you know the it's kind of uh
36:53anti-male to be told how to be male you
36:56know or anti-asc
36:58like okay this you're telling me exactly
36:59how I need to operate great got it um so
37:02I I get the disenfranchisement and I
37:05also get that you know women were
37:09um women were disenfranchised for a long
37:12time right they didn't have voting
37:13opportunities or rights um I mean we
37:15just go down the list and so I think
37:17it's just very interesting time where
37:20almost like in a marriage you know where
37:22things have not been talked about for a
37:24decade or two and all of a sudden they
37:26show up at couples therapy and they're
37:28both just livid at each other
37:31and all the stuff starts to come to the
37:32surface we're kind of in the finger
37:34pointing phase culturally right now
37:36right it's like men are the problem it's
37:38the patriarchy and you know the guys on
37:40the a side is like feminism's the
37:42problem it's you know it's all these you
37:43know wild crazy feminists uh and so that
37:46seems to be the space that we're in and
37:48so where where I want to land now that
37:51my sort of pseudo rant is done is what
37:55would you be saying to men who are in
37:58their 20s who are in their 30s like what
38:00would you be doing or trying to focus on
38:03now knowing that a lot of men are in
38:07this um commentary that's telling them
38:11women are the problem feminism has
38:13destroyed women there's no good women
38:15out there um you know porn is this
38:18massive distraction how would you be
38:20operating if you were 20 or 30 today and
38:23what would you be trying to focus in on
38:25or do or accomplish yes well all right
38:28let me give a little bit of my
38:29background first and then move into
38:32today's translation um as as you
38:36probably know or um that I started out
38:39like you did um I was in the board of
38:40directors of the National Organization
38:42for Women in New York City and I spoke
38:44all around the world on women's issues I
38:47suppose I was the leading world's
38:48leading male feminist and um and and did
38:54my income was my Applause my back blades
38:57were all based on supporting everything
39:00that feminism said and um one day when I
39:03was on the um board in New York City um
39:07the um the National Organization for
39:11Women was considering not allowing men
39:14in um in to join the organization and
39:17their main reason was because every um
39:20once a month they had Consciousness
39:22raising groups and during these
39:24Consciousness raising groups women felt
39:26inhibited to really speak up their mind
39:30uh when there were men in the group who
39:31would often try times try to solve their
39:34problem and stuff like that which just
39:36let left left them Feeling Just much
39:38more restricted and I totally understood
39:41that and so they ended up um solving the
39:44debate by saying that they would give
39:47this guy Warren frell six months uh to
39:50form some um men's groups uh during the
39:53same time that the women were doing the
39:55women's Consciousness raising groups and
39:57so and if that worked to get the W the
39:59men out of the women's hair so to speak
40:02um then um and then that would be um
40:06something that they would would allow
40:08them to keep men um in um to be able to
40:12join now so I did this and you know
40:16being that I was doing my doctor
40:18dissertation on the women's movement and
40:20I was sort of you know had this role um
40:23in now um oftentimes I would you know
40:26listen to the men for a little while and
40:28then sort of give them a lecture um as
40:30to how to be a better feminist and have
40:32to remember that every man that I was
40:34talking with was at of the National
40:35Organization for Women meeting exactly
40:37because um he was feminist in his
40:39orientation so we were sort of in a way
40:42all competing to be the biggest jock in
40:44the feminist men's group and the um and
40:48so I would um but then one day I decided
40:52to do something miraculous to shut my
40:54mouth and listen uh instead of just you
40:57know giving advice um and when I did
41:00that I started to ask questions like you
41:02know um you know what's the biggest you
41:04know hole in your heart uh what is the
41:08know what what are the things that you
41:09would have loved to have done that you
41:11haven't done and I saw a number of men
41:14and a number of the men's groups um that
41:16I formed tell me things like well the
41:19biggest hole in my heart was I wanted to
41:22be a musician or or an actor or a um or
41:26a writer like um and and you know and um
41:30or I wanted to be an artist or I wanted
41:32to be an elementary school teacher or I
41:34was an elementary school teacher and
41:36then when my kids when I had my first
41:38child um I had to give up being an
41:41elementary school teacher because I
41:42wasn't making enough money so I had to
41:44become I I figure out a way of going for
41:47my Master's Degree in administration
41:49becoming a principal well Warren I hate
41:51um you know I hate being Administration
41:55stuff it's just so and then they give me
41:56a big Grant as to why they hate it but
41:59pretty much everybody understands why
42:01and then so they become maybe a
42:02superintendent of schools or a principal
42:05but then the feminists looked at that
42:06and said aha even in areas where women
42:10uh were in the majority like teaching um
42:13it ends up being the men who are you
42:16know the in the power positions but the
42:18men were saying like this was the only
42:22reason I gave up my job as an elementary
42:25school teacher or being a musician and
42:27being what I wanted to do was because I
42:29wasn't making enough money as a musician
42:31artist or a writer or as an elementary
42:33school teacher so when our first child
42:35came along I realized I had to um do
42:39something that earned more money that
42:40would allow my wife to cut back on on
42:43her work enough to be able to take care
42:44of the children to to the degree that
42:46she wanted to whether that was full-time
42:49part-time or some combination of both um
42:52and so I did something that I hate doing
42:55or or at least I gave gave up my passion
42:58because the more high paying the more
43:01fulfilling the occupation the more
43:03people want to do it the more people
43:05want to do it the the greater the supply
43:07in relation to the demand therefore the
43:09less it pays and so I took something
43:11that paid more um so that I U so that my
43:15children could have opportunities that I
43:17never had so my wife and I and the
43:20family could move to a decent
43:22neighborhood with a decent school system
43:24uh so that could create more
43:25opportunities um and so um I suddenly
43:29and and then I realized that I had been
43:32assistant of the president of New York
43:34University and was considering becoming
43:36the President of University but the head
43:38of the modern language Association was
43:40telling me I had a gift for writing and
43:43so I really wanted to write but I was
43:45thinking that you know being a president
43:47of University would be more stable and I
43:50also was caught up in believing that I
43:52had to give up you know if I had
43:54children would have to give up doing
43:56what I really want wanted to do to do
43:57what I really needed to do and the
44:00challenge at once I saw the picture of
44:02how many men who were creative men uh
44:05were giving up doing what they wanted to
44:07do to do more that to do what they would
44:10would benefit the family more is that
44:13these men did were willing to do that
44:19but they didn't want to be told that
44:21they were doing that because they had
44:23male
44:25privilege that they wanted to be UND
44:28they wanted to be acknowledged for
44:30giving up a life of doing what they
44:32wanted to do to be able to make life
44:35better for their children and for their
44:37wife and this was this is in essence
44:42what has not been acknowledged to this
44:44day um from and this was you know this
44:46is back in the late 1960s early 70s uh
44:50even though I'm only 45 years old um the
44:54the um and so um we yes said and this
44:58has this unfortunately has not only not
45:00changed but but in Progressive
45:04universities which call them by the
45:06themselves Progressive which is by
45:09itself self-righteous term that suggests
45:12that anyone that doesn't agree with
45:13agree with us is not Progressive but
45:15regressive and the you the right is no
45:18better they call themselves patriotic
45:21but any which suggests that anybody
45:23that's not doesn't agree with us is not
45:24patriotic and they both you know both
45:27the left and the right have these
45:28self-righteous terms to make them make
45:30people believe that if you don't agree
45:32with them you're either unpatriotic or
45:34you're not Progressive and so um the but
45:38no one is articulating these things for
45:40our sons and no one is teaching people
45:43how to
45:44communicate in the area that is most
45:47important that almost every couple that
45:49I've worked with for the past 30 years
45:51in my role mate to soulmate workshops
45:53almost every couple says the same thing
45:56that I feel like I'm walking on
45:58eggshells to bring up something to my
46:00spouse having to wait for the right time
46:02the right moment the right tone to do it
46:05um because I fear that if I say what I
46:08really feel they'll just respond
46:10defensively we'll get into I'll respond
46:12defensively to them and we'll get into a
46:14huge argument and so I've you know
46:17developed these things called caring and
46:18sharing spaces where couples learn how
46:21to alter their natural biological
46:23propensity to be defensive for just an
46:25hour or so in order to be able to leave
46:28their partner feeling seen and heard um
46:30in the way that um they their partner
46:34would Express what's going on inside of
46:36them I think that that adds a a good
46:40sort of segue
46:41into uh the book role mate to soulmate
46:45so one of the things that I thought was
46:46interesting where I kind of wanted to
46:48begin on on this side was the book kind
46:50of suggests that falling in love is very
46:53biologically natural but then sustaining
46:56love love almost seems like it's
46:58biologically counterintuitive or
47:00unnatural so can you kind of elaborate a
47:02little bit on what makes this this shift
47:06from falling in love to maintaining or
47:09sustaining love so so challenging for
47:11couples to navigate yeah I biologically
47:14speaking and historically speaking um
47:16when you um when when you um first met
47:21each other you felt this you often feel
47:23this energy of Attraction if you are you
47:25know highly attracted that person and so
47:28you feel this enormous passion and you
47:30have your first love making experience
47:32and you feel like my goodness you're a
47:33soulmate but of course you're not a
47:35soulmate with somebody you barely know
47:37that you just you're you're an
47:38attraction made or a chemistry made if
47:41you will um and so but as the real life
47:45relationship you know starts happening
47:47there are things that you find that
47:48you're you know you would like your
47:50partner to do differently so um and and
47:53then your partner even though maybe it's
47:55a request to do something different ly
47:57and you would say it's a sharing of a
47:59concern your partner often experiences
48:02that you know request to maybe not put
48:03the dishes in the sink rather than the
48:05dishwasher as a criticism and so then
48:08your partner says some something like
48:10well you often leave the you know dishes
48:11in the dishw uh in the sink um I don't
48:14say anything about it why is it okay for
48:16you and not me and then bang bang bang
48:18we're all up you know we're up we're up
48:19into escalation mode and so what is this
48:22all about what this is about is that
48:25historically speaking when when you
48:27heard criticism it was a potential
48:30enemy and it w it made sense it was
48:34functional for you to get up your
48:36defenses otherwise you'd be killed by
48:38the enemy or even to kill the enemy
48:40before the enemy kills you that was
48:42functional for
48:43survival and we are all the children of
48:47people who behave that way and
48:50survived um but it well while it's
48:53functional for survival being defensive
48:56when your loved one has something to say
48:59is totally dysfunctional for
49:01love so the challenge that I had and I
49:05don't write a book unless I feel that
49:07there's a problem that is pretty
49:09Universal in the world um and and I feel
49:13that I might have a chance of having a
49:16solution that hasn't been come up with
49:19before and so 99% of the time I'm not
49:22the person to do it and I don't have a
49:23good solution but in this case I felt
49:26like I could could put my fingers on a a
49:28solution um to this
49:31and and so it's a complex series of
49:34things but one of those things is um
49:37creating a caring and sharing practice
49:40um and so I said to myself if it's
49:42biologically natural to be defensive in
49:45response to a criticism then we have to
49:48alter our natural biological State and
49:52so I have um be so I have couples set
49:56aside two hours a week um which I call a
50:00caring and sharing practice the first
50:02thing that they do is to learn how to
50:04appreciate each other at five levels of
50:07specificity at the beginning of the
50:09practice and then again at the end of
50:11the practice so that when they go into
50:14this two-hour practice they know that
50:16the great Maj a significant part of the
50:19time is going to be spent being
50:20appreciated by their partner which
50:22lowers the anxiety the second thing is
50:25but be there only allowed to have each
50:27person is allowed to share only one
50:30concern um and the person sharing it
50:33will consider it a concern usually not a
50:34criticism the person hearing it will
50:36consider it a criticism not a concern
50:38and so but before they hear that concern
50:41um the um they meditate into a series of
50:46six mindsets these six mindsets are ones
50:49that after 30 years of doing the role
50:51mate to soulmate Workshop I found that
50:53those um six mindsets were ones that
50:55were really
50:57um allowing people to
51:01um to change their biologically natural
51:06response from defensiveness
51:10to understanding that if I hear what my
51:14partner is saying I will be more deeply
51:17loved so I'll give an example of one of
51:20the mindsets one mindset is called the
51:23love
51:24guarantee and so before they hear the
51:27criticism they meditate into the mindset
51:30of saying if I provide a safe
51:33environment and make my partner feel
51:35very secure that no matter what she or
51:38he says um I will listen to it even if I
51:43feel it's completely exaggerated even if
51:45I feel it's a lie even if I feel it's an
51:48excuse even if it's said in a loud
51:50sarcastic tone of voice I will create a
51:53safe environment for that and if I do
51:55create a safe environment for that my
51:58partner will feel safe and secure with
52:00me which means she'll feel he'll feel
52:03more loved by me which means that he or
52:05she will feel more love for me so
52:10they're beginning to associate the
52:12experience of hearing
52:14criticism as an act of love I'll share
52:17one more mindset that it's really kind
52:20of entertaining um I have every couple
52:23um sit back to back and write on a piece
52:26of paper Pap that they I am I tell them
52:28that their partner will never see uh so
52:31they can be completely honest the answer
52:33to this question if your partner is in a
52:37situation where she or he is likely to
52:39be killed like let's drown or in a car
52:42accident and you know with 100%
52:45certainty that they're going to be um
52:47killed but there's a chance that you
52:50could save their life um that you know
52:53in fact with 100% certainty that you
52:55could save their life
52:56[Music]
52:57but there'd be a 50% chance of risking
53:01losing your own
53:02life would you do it yes no uncertain
53:08and take children out of the equation
53:11make believe there's no children um and
53:13so about then everybody throws their
53:16papers into an area where other men and
53:18women pick up um the same seex papers
53:21and read read read off the um the
53:24answers about 90% of men are willing say
53:28yes they're certain they would be
53:30willing to risk their life at a 50%
53:32level to save their partner's life and
53:35remember that a number of people in the
53:36workshop are considering getting
53:37divorced despite that 90% of the men a
53:41little bit more than 80% of the women
53:43say the same thing and the um and so
53:47then the first mindset is well if I'm
53:50willing to die for you I guess the least
53:52I can do is listen to
53:55you so puts the it puts it in
53:58perspective and there's four other
54:00mindsets like this that after the person
54:03who is about to listen goes through they
54:06realize all right if I'd be willing to
54:08die for you I guess I could listen to
54:09you um the the outcome of this is going
54:12to be you're going to feel more loved by
54:13me uh what's you know and then I teach
54:16them how to do this how to attach to the
54:19how to attach to the criticism and not
54:21detach or self listen and so on and at
54:23the end of that process they are really
54:25prepared to hear whatever their partner
54:28says in whatever way their partner says
54:30it and then once they learn to do that
54:33their experiences I have almost always I
54:37have never felt so heard by you in my
54:41life before even though I may have
54:44mentioned this issue a hundred times
54:47before now is the first time I've really
54:50felt heard from you so then the next big
54:54question becomes well what about the
54:57other 166 hours a week besides this two
55:01hours for caring and sharing and so I
55:03teach the couples then how to set up
55:05Conflict Free Zones this does not mean
55:09criticism free zones you will do what
55:12you your partner will do something that
55:14you consider a criticism very possibly
55:17at some point during the week so what I
55:20first have them do is to visualize that
55:23I can either respond to this criticism
55:25right now and we'll probably get into an
55:27argument that will escalate and we'll
55:29both feel
55:30terrible uh or alternatively um I can
55:34visualize myself giving my response in
55:37the caring and sharing time um and
55:40having about a 100% chance of being
55:42heard and listened to by my partner and
55:45seen oh okay that's a pretty easy
55:47decision but you may have such anger
55:50inside of you at the moment that doing
55:53that doesn't seem viable so the next
55:56thing I ask people to do is to journal
55:59and the first stage of journaling is to
56:01write you rush to your computer and
56:03write down exactly why you're 100% right
56:07and your partner's 100% wrong that's the
56:08first stage that's what I call the
56:10self-righteous stage and then um stage
56:13two is well what's one good point that
56:16my partner is making stage three is
56:18what's a number of points that my
56:19partner is making number four let me
56:21write this up as if it was my partner
56:23speaking and and then if it still
56:25survives a problem where you feel you
56:27haven't had a chance to share what you
56:28want to share then then it survives and
56:31you bring it up in the in the um caring
56:34and sharing practice so those are two of
56:36the
56:3723 um what I call love enhancements that
56:40I um ask people to do in the role mate
56:44to soulmate um book but I will tell you
56:48this ain't easy um you know because this
56:51is all biologically unnatural and it
56:53doesn't you know if you think that
56:54you're going to read the book once and
56:56not practice it with your partner you
56:59know I'd love to say that's what's
57:00that's that will happen but it's what
57:03you get from the book is what I hope is
57:05wisdom but the truth is that when
57:07criticism appears wisdom
57:10disappears unless your brain has tra
57:13trained yourself to hear that criticism
57:16in a way that Associates it with being
57:19more deeply loved and you've not done
57:21that not just once but five 10 15 times
57:25so that your brains neurons begin to um
57:28connect so that when I hear my wife is
57:30upset with me about something I can
57:33really hear that I have the option of
57:36waiting for this caring and sharing time
57:39to be able to share my perspective on
57:42it I will say that one of the things
57:44that I really loved about the book is
57:46how practical and tactical it is which I
57:49am a huge advocate for it's how I wrote
57:52my book I wanted to be I wanted it to be
57:54as tactical and practical as POS
57:56possible and so I love that you have
57:58stuff in there for couples to do one of
58:00the things that also stood out to me is
58:02this concept not concept it's it's a
58:04very real experience that so many people
58:07have which is just walking on eggshells
58:09around their partner you know I don't
58:11want to say the wrong thing I don't want
58:12to do the wrong thing I mean I hear men
58:13say this all the time of like I just
58:16don't know if I'm gonna say or do the
58:17wrong thing that's GNA set her off or
58:19vice versa and I think that's a very
58:23common state that couples can get into
58:26um what advice do you have for couples
58:29in terms of how to break this pattern so
58:31that connection can be maintained versus
58:34this disconnection of if I do X Y and Z
58:38then maybe you'll be in a good place but
58:40if I do anything else then you're GNA
58:41bite my head off yes yes you really have
58:45to you really have to practice this and
58:49not as a not just read the book and one
58:51it's one of the reasons why I've made
58:53practically free an online video course
58:56course that I um have produced um that
58:59that you and your partner can actually
59:01get the course and then take the stuff
59:04that's in the book and actually practice
59:06it with your partner watching me do it
59:08with two other couples and then pausing
59:11pausing it to actually do the
59:12experiences that I ask people to do this
59:15about 15 experiences in the book that
59:17you and your partner will do and then
59:19when you do when you do that um one of
59:21the things that happens is when you
59:23first do that caring and sharing uh you
59:26feel heard for the first time and you
59:28feel you that you know how to hear your
59:31partner in a way that makes her feel
59:34more secure once you you have to trust
59:37it enough to have that experience once
59:41but once you have that experience you
59:44then can um then it's like a whole other
59:48world opens up to you like anything I'm
59:51walking on eggshells about I have the
59:54option to be able to bring that up um in
59:56this caring and sharing time and I will
59:59watch and hear my partner prepare her
1:00:02himself by saying these mindsets out
1:00:05loud and telling me when she or he is
1:00:08ready to hear me without be coming
1:00:11feeling defensive and she or he will
1:00:14stop and say hold the moment they lose
1:00:17it and return to their natural
1:00:18biological state of being defensive and
1:00:21so when they say hold and I have to stop
1:00:23talking about what I'm I'm doing I know
1:00:26my partner is preparing himself or
1:00:28herself to Center themselves again and
1:00:31so once you've had that experience then
1:00:34it's possible when you're criticized
1:00:36during the week to say to be able to
1:00:39visualize wait a minute I have a way of
1:00:41really being able to do this now having
1:00:43said that you know in my last Workshop I
1:00:46had two older men um who I just could
1:00:49not get to do this and when I spoke to
1:00:53both of them privately um and actually
1:00:56in front of their their new wives um and
1:00:59they said that when I was previously
1:01:01married um I tried to listen to my wife
1:01:06or I've tried to say to my wife certain
1:01:08things that bothered me and it alienated
1:01:11them and there was no sex there was no
1:01:13love there was no connection I just felt
1:01:16like the whole thing was a lose lose
1:01:18lose and so I promised myself I would
1:01:21never do that again I would just keep my
1:01:24feelings to myself and yes I've had
1:01:25problem problems with alcoholism or you
1:01:27know I you know I play golf on Sunday to
1:01:30get away from it all and relax um but
1:01:33nevertheless I'm not going to risk that
1:01:36loss of love again and it's only when
1:01:38they have an experience where they see
1:01:41that their wife or U actually listened
1:01:44to them and heard them be able to say
1:01:47what they wanted to say really wanted to
1:01:49say um that they felt like wow this
1:01:53actually can change from my past
1:01:56experience but they have to take that
1:01:58little bit of a leap of faith the thing
1:02:00that allows them to do it in the
1:02:02workshop is that you know they see 30
1:02:04other couples doing it uh successfully
1:02:07and they they often are then willing to
1:02:09take that risk well I feel like that is
1:02:12a good place for us to pause um so much
1:02:15wisdom in this book and for those that
1:02:17aren't watching because we have uh you
1:02:21on video right now which you got role
1:02:24mate to soulmate in the background there
1:02:26which I love um definitely go check out
1:02:29role mate to soulmate you can get it
1:02:31wherever books are sold um I know I'm I
1:02:33don't usually like give a a little
1:02:35recommendation and go and grab a copy
1:02:37but I really enjoyed this and I got to
1:02:39dive into it and um and I I do think
1:02:42that a lot of the tools that are in your
1:02:44book are uh are going to support many
1:02:47many of people so any final words for
1:02:49the folks that are out there listening
1:02:50who want to learn more about you or your
1:02:53work where where should they go yeah un
1:02:55fortunately Amazon does have a 30% sale
1:02:58on on the book now and and I do um as
1:03:01you'll see when you look at the book
1:03:02really don't just read the book um it'll
1:03:05give you as I said wisdom that will
1:03:07disappear the first time you're
1:03:10criticized but but actually you do it
1:03:13with your partner in the in the um
1:03:15online course and you will re I can then
1:03:18really guarantee U that you'll have a
1:03:21way of communicating that won't just be
1:03:22good for you uh it'll be good if you
1:03:24have children um for your children to
1:03:26see areas of see see two people that
1:03:29they love disagreeing and being able to
1:03:31come to a different um be able to hear
1:03:33each other and um you know the only
1:03:36downside it will have to your children
1:03:37is once the children learn to listen
1:03:38like that they'll be too popular it may
1:03:41take away from their homework time but
1:03:44but you as a as a rule all seriousness
1:03:46it's I think one of the greatest gifts
1:03:48you can give to the children to um to
1:03:51show to teach them great methods of
1:03:54communication beautiful couldn't agree
1:03:57more well thank you so much for joining
1:03:59me again Dr F this has been an honor and
1:04:01a PR privilege to just chat with you and
1:04:03drop in and hope to have you back on the
1:04:05show let's not wait what is
1:04:07that six years let's not wait six years
1:04:10again I I'd love to work with you soon
1:04:13you ask uh you're very thoughtful you
1:04:15ask good questions you're balanced you
1:04:17listen really well and so that's a
1:04:19combination that um I appreciate in an
1:04:22interview but I also love it in person
1:04:24thank you so much thank you so much much
1:04:25everybody that's out there this is
1:04:27definitely an episode that you should
1:04:28tune into with a friend a partner so man
1:04:31It Forward share the episode with
1:04:32somebody that you know will enjoy it and
1:04:34until next week this is Connor Beaton
1:04:36signing off

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