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'Men and women after #metoo', with Warren Farrell (part 3 of 3) — Transcript

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0:02[Music]
0:05if much of the conversation in the media
0:08looks like a dysfunctional relationship
0:10between men and women Warren Farrell has
0:13a unique perspective he was the most
0:16high-profile male feminist back in the
0:1870s
0:19helping women's voices be heard then
0:22started running men's groups and hearing
0:24men's stories as well he wrote a series
0:27of books and became known as the father
0:30of the men's movement now he teaches
0:33couples counseling to help both men and
0:36women listen to each other stories I'd
0:40love to hear you kind of summarize where
0:43you came from I think you've got a
0:44really interesting perspective having
0:45been part of the women's movement and
0:48and then you're you're now kind of seen
0:51as the father of the men's movement yes
0:53it's ironic I start yeah and I did start
0:57out when I was doing my doctorate at New
0:59York University the women's I was
1:02teaching at Rutgers University at the
1:03time and when the women's movement
1:06surfaced I started incorporating that
1:07into my political science curriculum as
1:09a political movement and my advisors and
1:14I was also doing my doctoral
1:16dissertation at the time and so the
1:18students and at Rutgers were saying man
1:20when you speak about the women's
1:22movement you got fire in your belly
1:23and yeah you should think you know what
1:25are you doing your dissertation on and I
1:27said what I was doing it on which was a
1:28different part of politics and they said
1:32you should think about doing it and
1:33something about the women's movement so
1:35I went to my to my Advisory Committee
1:38and they said oh you know Warren you
1:40don't want to sort of like demean
1:42yourself with taking on some little fad
1:44that's going to be going away in a few
1:46years and I said I don't think this is a
1:48fair that's going to be going away I
1:49think this is a an evolutionary shift
1:51where women are beginning to speak up
1:53and say the old gender roles of the past
1:55were too rigid we're more than just a
1:57role and I think that this is going to
2:00have implications for both women and men
2:02however I do agree that it's a lot of
2:04hostility toward men and you know and it
2:07may take a little bit longer to catch on
2:09among men and so they said if you really
2:12want to go for it that got me deeply
2:14involved and then that led to my being
2:16to the board of directors of the
2:18National Organization for Women in New
2:19York City and then I got reelected for a
2:22few years after that and so I spoke all
2:24around the world on women's issues the
2:26importance of women's issues and why any
2:28secure man should be a supporter of
2:30women being having more flexible roles
2:33and and also the importance of this for
2:36men and for men to be a part of this
2:39process you'll now known as the father
2:41of the men's movement but in in the
2:44States at least the mr1 known as the
2:47m-ras men's rights activists have a
2:49pretty terrible reputation do you think
2:51that any of that is deserved or not yeah
2:53I think somebody's deserved I think some
2:55of it has been strategic you know Paul
2:58Elam who sort of started voice for men
3:00he was he read the myth of male power of
3:03a book I wrote and and he said my god
3:06this is you know this is something that
3:08everybody needs to be aware of and then
3:11but he started but ten years passed and
3:15you know the book had some impact but it
3:18didn't change the cultural dialogue
3:20about men and women and he said well you
3:23know what's what's wrong with Warren
3:25Farrell's myth of male power approach
3:27and he basically said this is what he's
3:29told me directly and he said that what's
3:31wrong with it is that he's so rational
3:33and so thoughtful and he doesn't really
3:35he doesn't get anybody to notice him in
3:38sort of a and doesn't get pressed with
3:42the press needs that you know Warren
3:44Farrell does not understand is they need
3:46to be you know you need to bang them you
3:48need to be outrageous you need to be in
3:51a way stupid and you know and then the
3:54press will pay attention so he began
3:57doing that Nepal ulam is a counselor so
4:00he's not like you know completely dead
4:02to the world man in terms of sensitivity
4:04and so he but he strategically said you
4:09know I'll get the attention of the press
4:10and he did do that and he got the
4:12attention of the press he was right and
4:15but in the process of doing things like
4:18reversing roles and saying here's a you
4:21know here's what women say about men
4:23I'll write an article and just say the
4:26opposite of that and I'm
4:27could make women into the person that is
4:30accused of being ridiculous in one way
4:33or the other and and then the press was
4:36outright outraged then but he also drew
4:40in some people with that method that
4:43were quite anger angry and hurt and so
4:48my I don't agree with many of the things
4:50that were said however I do understand
4:53his strategy and I also take a very
4:56different approach to people who are
4:57angry my attitude toward people who are
5:01angry or what we call people are filled
5:03with hate is to listen to them not argue
5:07with them and people's hatred quotient
5:10is significantly reduced by being heard
5:14and so the very first thing you need to
5:17do to to to help give good therapy to
5:22anyone who you call a hater is to not
5:25yourself be a hater of the haters when
5:28you're a hater of the haters you are a
5:30hater
5:31also and so if your if your job is to be
5:34progressive if you consider yourself a
5:36progressive the first thing we need to
5:38do with every hater every person we
5:41disagree with vehemently every person
5:44who has gotten bitter and angry is to
5:46hear them out to find out every piece of
5:49the puzzle that has contributed to their
5:52worldview picture and when we let them
5:55know that we've not only heard what they
5:57said but we say this is what I hear you
6:00say is that accurate and we keep working
6:02on it until we get an accurate vision of
6:04that and that person can say my god you
6:07will see tears I have seen when I do
6:09that with people see you know when you
6:11hear angry dads talking about the legal
6:14system and how oppressive it is just
6:17change the topic ask them about their
6:20kids ask them about what what's hurting
6:22inside of them that they can't see their
6:24kids and out of the person who's whose
6:27eyes you felt anger and steel coming out
6:30of you will soon see tears coming out of
6:32those eyes and
6:34and the hurt and the pain that led to
6:35that anger and that's what we need to be
6:38focusing on and when we do that and when
6:40people are listening to that way they
6:42don't become the shooters they don't
6:44become the haters so let's be that as
6:46progressive as we claim to be and let's
6:49listen to those that we disagree with
6:51vehement Lee rather than to put them
6:53down and just give them a label that
6:56allows us to discount everything they
6:58feel and everything they say the label
7:00is our statement of our being regressive
7:05not progressive so from the outside one
7:08of the criticisms by the men's rights
7:09activists is that feminism now has has
7:13become very angry and blaming men and it
7:16but it seems that they're basically just
7:18reversing that dynamic rather than it
7:20it's almost like they've become a mirror
7:22image of what they're protesting again
7:23yes the the enemy often becomes very
7:26much like the person they're fighting
7:28and when we fight the enemy we often
7:32become very much like the enemy and
7:33that's a problem and I disagree with a
7:37lot of you know the anger I'm just I
7:39don't myself tend to be an angry person
7:41and so so that part I you know I agree
7:45with that type of critique and the rash
7:48but to help us understand the rationale
7:50you know Paul Elam was saying things
7:53like you know Warren's rational logical
7:56thoughtful approach was not
7:58accomplishing anything the feminist
8:00movement was generated with a huge
8:01amount of anger toward men calling them
8:04the oppressors calling men you know
8:06people who were responsible for a
8:08patriarchal society that made rules to
8:10benefit men at the expense of women this
8:11was a lot of anger and that my former
8:14wife tried to get me to not be involved
8:16with the feminist movement at the
8:18beginning because she said it was filled
8:19with man haters and I said I it's
8:22important for us to find the best aspect
8:25of feminism and to promote that and the
8:27best aspect of feminism was expanding
8:30options for women and making the world
8:32much making making and allowing women to
8:35be a lot more of themselves and they
8:37they were in the old days of roles and
8:39so and now I ask us to do the same thing
8:43with with men yes there's anger what
8:46when you're a father who's devoted to
8:48your children and you have the that
8:49children that you get a divorce and you
8:52have the children ripped away from you
8:53and you see the children being over
8:55protected and not going doing well in
8:57school and having ADHD and having
8:59significant problems you get angry and
9:02when you try to fight that and explain
9:03to the courts and the judges and you use
9:05a hundred and fifty thousand dollars to
9:07fight that court battle and you lose
9:08everything you have and you have to put
9:10your home on mortgage and and you and
9:12the judge is still not understanding
9:14what what is needed for the children and
9:16the and your your your program to have
9:19lots of psychologists evaluate you and
9:22expert witnesses you're paying for
9:24lawyers you're paying for and you're
9:25paying for your wife's lawyer as well
9:26you get angry and so so I'd like us to
9:30have compassion for what generates the
9:32anger rather than rather than say
9:35they're angry they're MRA Warren you
9:38don't want to be associated with them no
9:41I don't take that position but I want us
9:44to hear the people who are angry at us
9:45whether they be feminists or whether
9:48they be men's issues people when I was
9:50first interviewed by Barbara Walters for
9:52the Today Show years ago when I was on
9:55the board of now she said how can you
9:57associate yourself with people like Kate
9:59Millett she's bisexual and my response
10:02was we have to maybe because Kate
10:05Mallette is bisexual maybe she can see
10:07the forest through our through the trees
10:09she can see what we as heterosexuals
10:12don't see because she has a broader view
10:14of it and we have to we have to hear the
10:16people that are different from with what
10:18we have what we have in most of the
10:21world today is divided perspectives that
10:24are that they have that are take comfort
10:27in their niche and do not hear the
10:30people that differ from them it's
10:32interesting to hear that Paul e Lama has
10:37that's a very definite and deliberate
10:39strategy on his balance yes do you think
10:41it could work I think it works to a
10:44certain degree it works in the same way
10:45that feminism works that feminists used
10:49that type of strategy well they have
10:51many strategies going at the same time
10:52they had the anger strategy which was
10:54represented by the red stockings and
10:56many of the Socialist Worker party
10:58feminists and then they had the the now
11:01strategy the National Organization for
11:02women's strategy which was much more
11:04male friendly and male inclusive and and
11:08you know let's let's change laws and
11:10make some constructive changes in
11:12society so then they had the university
11:17strategies of educating people and so
11:20they had multiple strategies working and
11:22one of the reasons they could get so
11:23many strategies working in such large
11:26numbers so quickly is because we're
11:28biologically programmed to protect women
11:30we are not biologically programmed to
11:32protect men so the the big difference
11:35between women and men is when men say we
11:38have this problem it feels to most
11:40people like men whining and women are
11:44not attracted to whining men they're
11:47attracted to alpha men and when women
11:49hear men whining it is often like nails
11:52on a chalkboard just that the the sound
11:56sounds awful
11:58when a woman complains and says she's
12:00hurt and she has a problem we are all
12:03we're all competing to rescue her I was
12:08one of the competent competitors to
12:10rescue her I was the world's biggest
12:11male feminist da you're you have
12:15something to say I will hear you I will
12:17be sensitive to you
12:18I was the biggest shock in the
12:19sensitivity group if you will and so if
12:21I can mock myself but it wasn't out of
12:25trying to be the biggest shock at least
12:27in a conscious level it was me it was
12:29that I did hear what women were saying
12:32my mother you know told me when I we
12:34know Greg went to graduate school she
12:36said I wish I had gone to college rather
12:38than focus on making enough money to get
12:40closed to attract a husband I really
12:43shipped myself by not going to Cornell
12:45where I got a scholarship and my mother
12:47moved into depression and I saw that and
12:49was sensitive to our depression so when
12:51the women's move in surfaced and and and
12:54articulated the importance of women
12:56getting education and being able to do
12:58what they wanted to do making full use
12:59of their talents that was there for me
13:02on a gut visceral level to be able to
13:05support because you mentioned the sort
13:08of how culture and women particularly
13:10see men complaining there's
13:12and whining that's really interesting
13:14because on one level we have a narrative
13:16that says men need to be much more in
13:17touch with their emotional side they
13:19need to be much more men lock things
13:21down and that's really bad and women
13:24often complaining about that and then on
13:26the other side when men do saying how
13:29they're feeling they're often described
13:30as whining or complaining and there's
13:32there's a little compassion for it this
13:34is exactly accurate and this is that
13:36this is one of the challenges that we
13:38need to really confront is that that we
13:41say men speak up share your feelings
13:44it's like Lois Lane and Superman Lois
13:48Lane wanted and begged Superman to cry
13:51but she has zero interest in hearing
13:53about anything from Clark Kent women do
13:57want to hear men's feelings and hurts
13:59and pains if they're assured first that
14:02they're Superman that they're the
14:03protector but when they meet Clark Kent
14:05and he's more open about his feelings at
14:08his pain this just turns the women off
14:11and women don't understand this about
14:13themselves they think that oh you know
14:16my husband really cried when his own
14:18when his mother was dying of cancer
14:21I really supported that so doesn't that
14:24mean I support a man expressing his
14:26feelings the answer is yes and no you
14:29ears you're supportive of a man
14:31expressing his feelings what he's when
14:33he has empathy for someone else's pain
14:35you're not often support or look more
14:38introspectively about whether you are
14:40open to a man expressing his feelings of
14:43anger or hurt or upset about something
14:46that you did but when you experience it
14:49as a criticism from your husband from
14:52your boyfriend oftentimes your boyfriend
14:54experiences you as backing off as being
14:57less willing to be sexual less willing
14:59to be emotionally open being more
15:01distant from him after that he needs
15:04your love he wants your love when he
15:06expresses what hurts him and gives him
15:08pain and he sees that you back off
15:10he tends to repress it because everybody
15:12else as well as you in the society has
15:15encouraged him to back off from
15:17expressing his weakness speaking mostly
15:20broadly what were your feelings when he
15:22first saw the me2 moment a
15:25arrived and how do you think it's it's
15:28gone and developed since I was I was
15:31very happy women were speaking up and
15:32then as it began and I was I was shocked
15:36at the things that Weinstein and Matt
15:38Lauer and you know some of the men did I
15:40mean just to me it made you know like if
15:42it was it was eye-opening and so I'm
15:45very you know happy to hear about that
15:48and and happy to sort of get the
15:51discussion started that you know men you
15:55know your penis is not something that
15:57women enjoy seeing we pay billions of
16:00dollars to take women's clothes off but
16:02we put men and men who take their
16:03clothes off without being given
16:06permission first they're put in jail and
16:08so yes that's a double standard but
16:11let's face it you got to be aware of
16:13this double standard you know nobody
16:16would arrest a woman who just took you
16:17know who took her top down a little bit
16:21and began to expose a little bit of
16:22nipple and we would just sort of be
16:26salivating for more but when a man does
16:30that with his penis you know that's the
16:32end of the game for that man and so
16:34you've got to know enough about the
16:36world to know that and sorry if it's
16:38unfair but you can't make it fair by
16:40your power secondly understand that
16:43there's a double standard happening out
16:45there if a woman is if a man has spent
16:49his entire life like Matt Weinstein you
16:52know climbing the ladder and making the
16:54sacrifices that he made to to sponsor
16:58the pictures he sponsored and probably
17:00working 70 80 hours a week so he gets
17:02overweight and looks like a you know a
17:04terrible example of a man the that that
17:09he begins to see lots and lots of women
17:12competing to have access to him lots and
17:14lots of men competing to have access to
17:16him and and he has certain feelings
17:19about the women who and what he wants
17:22oftentimes his sexuality and sex and he
17:25feels like he has earned his way to that
17:27and so but only by the women who are
17:30going to compete for that and so
17:33he has and so should he use his power in
17:36that way absolutely not
17:37is he a jerk absolutely yes absolutely
17:40is he more than a jerk like an a-hole
17:42yes he is but at the same time there's
17:46another side to that story which is the
17:48competition for access and the very fact
17:51that a woman through her sexuality could
17:54have access to a man for whom thousands
17:57of people are competing to have access
17:59is something that women have to look at
18:02about who are they playing into that
18:04many many women Marilyn Monroe used to
18:07say this about herself I'll have sex
18:09with anybody in order to be to move
18:11higher into higher up the ladder of
18:14having more of a career opportunities
18:16and so a heterosexual male does not have
18:21that opportunity with Matt Weinstein and
18:23and their or any heterosexual producer
18:26so let's look at all sides of this issue
18:29including Matt including the the hashtag
18:33me to decide for a long time at the
18:35beginning of me to the part of the
18:38narrative was and this was kind of
18:41explicitly said quite a lot of the time
18:42men now is not your time to speak and
18:45now is your time to listen which and
18:47there's some there's some truth in that
18:48it's like there's a lot of stories that
18:50haven't been heard before that the women
18:52are finally feeling empowered to speak
18:53and it's a valuable thing to do but it
18:56seems to me that you can't stay there
18:58because by definition it's not a
19:01relationship if only one side of the
19:03relationship is is allowed to speak we
19:06have to realize that the male-female
19:09evolutionary dance has evolved as a
19:11tango for millions of years and it's
19:14very important that women speak up about
19:16what they do and don't like about their
19:18parts of the tango and that we recognize
19:20that there are thousands of different
19:22women from different backgrounds who
19:23have different answers to that question
19:24that women don't just have one message
19:26to deliver on that issue at the same
19:28time all the exact opposite is also true
19:31it is not true that we haven't listened
19:34to women
19:35we haven't listened to women speak the
19:37feminist message for more than a half
19:39century but we haven't listened to men
19:42express their feelings ever at all that
19:44was exactly the opposite of what
19:46masculine
19:46was about so let's open up and hear boys
19:50and men's stories but what do we need to
19:52do we need to know how to listen and so
19:56after almost a half century of doing
19:58work sharing helping men understand
20:01women and women understand men and doing
20:03role reversal dates and men's beauty
20:04contests because I said to every man in
20:06my audience every woman is in a beauty
20:08contest every day of her life
20:10if you want to understand the beauty
20:11contest of everyday life come up here on
20:14stage and be in the beauty contest of
20:15everyday life that women go through and
20:17when men went through in my audiences
20:19those deputy contests of everyday life
20:21they really did increase their empathy
20:23for what it was like to be paid
20:24attention to for your beauty and not
20:27paid attention to for your mind
20:28conversely when the women were asked to
20:31risk the sexual rejection that men
20:34experienced by but I often say there's
20:37more than about a hundred risks of
20:39sexual rejection that a man can
20:41typically take between eye contact and
20:43intercourse and I asked women just to
20:45take a couple of those risks like asking
20:47a guy out and kissing him on the cheek
20:49before you know during a 20-minute
20:51simulated date and women who were
20:54executives just started shaking and
20:57sweating when they had to take the risk
21:00of asking and men out especially when I
21:02encouraged them to ask out the man that
21:04they were truly most attracted to which
21:06was usually the man that won the beauty
21:08contest and so you had eight or nine
21:10women competing for the man that won the
21:12beauty contest and and those women
21:14started exaggerating what you know what
21:16they had to offer you know I caught I
21:18have a Porsche I'll take you out to a
21:20really nice place at a really nice
21:21restaurant well this woman was a student
21:23she could didn't have a Porsche and
21:25didn't have much money to take him out
21:26but she started acting like what she
21:28valued about herself I started acting
21:30like a jerk and in my entire life she
21:33would say the only time I ever used the
21:35word jerk was to talk about a man now
21:37within 20 minutes of the simulated
21:40exercise that you asked us to do I'm
21:41starting to be act like a jerk that's
21:44the type of thing that we need to listen
21:45to but I found after many years of doing
21:48this around the country in the world
21:50that this did help men and women have a
21:53greater empathy toward each other but I
21:55was still missing something
21:57when men and women were married or in a
21:59long-term relation
22:00ship and they got into an argument and a
22:02man criticized the woman or the woman
22:04criticized the man both sexes tended to
22:06become defensive when they were
22:08criticized and when they became
22:10defensive that made the other sexes
22:12scared to speak up again about what they
22:14that they heard so I started developing
22:16couples communication workshops in those
22:18couples communication workshops I taught
22:21people how to do a workaround to our
22:23biologically natural propensity to
22:26become defensive when we heard personal
22:28criticism from somebody we looked and so
22:31that is a very hard thing to get people
22:33to do because you're working against the
22:35natural biological propensity to be
22:37defensive but over a ten hour workshop
22:40over the course of the weekend I can
22:43train people to be able to listen in a
22:47way that makes it self that makes it
22:50safe for they themselves to hear the
22:54criticism because they can see that
22:57providing a safe environment for their
23:00partner's criticism actually makes their
23:03partner feel more heard and therefore
23:06feel more loved by them and therefore
23:09love them more so they begin to make a
23:11different connection a connection of
23:14being criticized to an opportunity to
23:19deepen love that is the work that we
23:22need to do in this world that is the
23:28work that we need to do in this world to
23:30help men and women hear each other help
23:33Republicans and Democrats Israelis and
23:35Arabs to help everyone that disagrees
23:38with each other to hear each other first
23:40but to become internally safe not this
23:45is not active listening alone active
23:47listening provides a safe environment
23:49for the person who's speaking and
23:51criticizing to speak up that's good but
23:54what we also want to do is to provide a
23:56safe internal experience for the person
24:01being criticized to understand that as
24:05they hear the critique of themselves
24:07they will feel either more loved from a
24:10loved one or more respected from a
24:13colleague
24:14or safer with somebody within a
24:17different ideological perspective that
24:19is the next evolutionary development
24:22that we need to pioneer and how on earth
24:25do we do that on a sort of cultural
24:26level we do that first of all by
24:29recognizing that it's that but by
24:32speaking up I hope that by saying this
24:34exactly what I just said in the boy
24:36crisis I will begin to start forming a
24:39cultural dialogue it's by spending time
24:42with people like yourself who have done
24:43good work who are not here to trick me
24:46into saying something that they can get
24:48a little sound bite out of and sensing
24:50who those people are that want to move
24:52us to the next evolutionary level
24:54spending time with them spending time
24:57with people who are wanting to use it
25:01for their own purposes but maybe
25:02beginning to soften the edges of those
25:05people and so it's it's a lot of work
25:08and a lot of the work is going to be
25:10done in very small numbers at first but
25:13sometimes that those numbers can begin
25:15to reach tipping points where it becomes
25:17safer and safer to speak up about these
25:19issues because it's also very true at
25:22the moment we talked about what can be
25:24said and what can't be said there is a
25:27cultural ideology at the moment that is
25:29allowing certain types of conversations
25:31and not allowing other types of
25:32conversation yes and and those that
25:36cultural ideology that allows certain
25:38conversations and not other
25:39conversations is an ideology that is
25:43possessed by people who call themselves
25:45progressive I'm I have always thought of
25:49myself as politically liberal and
25:51progressive I totally a pour the word
25:54progressive being used to keep other
25:58people shut down progressive in my
26:01opinion only allows for people to speak
26:04up and it never allows for some
26:07statement like your mansplaining it
26:11allows for a statement like you're a man
26:13and you're explaining sharemore you're
26:15making progress by just sharing your
26:17feelings to begin with we've always
26:19encouraged men to share their feelings
26:20and then never really allowed them to
26:22share their feelings
26:23we're being part of the problem if we
26:25call you
26:26a man's plainer we're being part of the
26:28problem if we say we do we don't want
26:30free speech on campus for people who
26:33don't want free speech on campuses the
26:35fact that the Liberals are now or people
26:38who call themselves progressive are now
26:40trying to prevent certain people with
26:41different ideologies from speaking on
26:43campus is the exact opposite of
26:45progressive it is regressive and I
26:48refuse to be part of that part of quote
26:52progressivism which is really a
26:54regressive ism
26:55so we've been putting out films about
26:59masculinity conversations about gender
27:02between especially between myself and
27:04Louise Mazzanti and one of the themes
27:06because we work we do teach men's work
27:09as well and part of that men's work is
27:11about emotional emotional intelligence
27:16sort of increasing men's emotional
27:18intelligence being honest and there's
27:20always a hard core of kind of mgtow type
27:25guys who post under it and say this is
27:28feminized language you guys are closeted
27:30feminists talking about emotions talking
27:32about feelings and it seems it seems
27:35like there's a there's a real online
27:37subculture that sees any kind of talk
27:39around men's feelings as being a
27:41closeted kind of plot by feminists to
27:44take over yes that is as wrong as it can
27:47be the what McTell and other people
27:52should every men's issues activist
27:55should be encouraging ourselves to be
27:58able to act to encourage boys and men to
28:02access their feelings it is when when
28:05boys get depressed and they get ready to
28:07commit suicide it is almost always
28:10because they have not had access to
28:12their feelings because they have not
28:14gotten had been gathered together in
28:15groups with other boys who are then
28:18sharing what's going on behind their
28:21masks and be every boy every girl or two
28:25has a mask and and when boys when girls
28:30have masks they oftentimes talk with
28:32other girls and they discover that the
28:35mask is one thing and the girl is
28:37another thing
28:38and they and they can talk with their
28:39mothers about that well the boys have
28:41masks they fear that they're the only
28:43one that they're lonely that they're the
28:45that that they are they have ADHD and
28:47they can't get it together to really do
28:50their homework well or they wanted to
28:52join the basketball team but they can't
28:54rehearse effectively and and so on and
28:56so they feel like there's something
28:58fundamentally wrong with them and then
29:00they get together in groups of eight or
29:02nine other boys and the other boys six
29:04or seven of them was saying yes I have
29:06the same feeling and others are saying I
29:08don't have that feeling but you know
29:10I've been taking drugs or I've been
29:11cutting myself or I've been you know
29:13I've been masturbating and I feel
29:14terrible about that because my parents
29:15are Catholic at me and they feel that
29:18that's a really terrible thing to do and
29:20somebody else is saying well gee I don't
29:22I don't have that response from the
29:23Catholic parents but I have it this way
29:25and when boys are sharing that they
29:26their the the the Albatross
29:30psychological albatross that has lifted
29:32off their backs is enormous and so it is
29:36just a fundamental mistake to be to to
29:41to not encourage boys to open up and
29:45express their feelings their hurts in
29:47their pains but there is also I think I
29:49understand some of the point because if
29:53you share that within a narrative of men
29:56are faulty men are emotionally shut down
29:58and there's not respect for men's
30:00vulnerability or it can be used against
30:02them in this culture that it can be a it
30:05can be a sort of subtle power play
30:06you're encouraged you're encouraged to
30:08be vulnerable but a vulnerability isn't
30:10necessarily respected correct and that's
30:13the same type of thing that women
30:15experience in the opposite mode fifty
30:18years ago if they wanted to be a surgeon
30:21people would say well why don't you just
30:22you know get married and you know and
30:24maybe be a teacher if you really so
30:26bright and so we discourage girls from
30:29being their whole cells because we
30:31wanted them to conform to being feminine
30:33that's a that's dangerous just like
30:36encouraging boys to try to not share
30:40your feelings because you don't want
30:42that to be used against you we need to
30:44be encouraging boys to be whole people
30:47and yes it will be used against you
30:50and yes find the women and men in your
30:53society that it could be that want the
30:55real you not a fake you I don't want to
30:58be married to somebody that makes me
31:00keep my mask on or doesn't make me keep
31:03my mask on but I choose to keep my mask
31:05on in order to get her approval in love
31:07that is not approval that is that's
31:09approval but it's not love and so we
31:12want boys to be loved boys have been
31:15trained to be invulnerable in order to
31:18be disposable and we've been trained to
31:20take the concussions on the way to the
31:22touchdown and to be cheered with not
31:25just by girls and the cheerleaders but
31:27also by the fathers who say that's my
31:29son that got that touchdown who do what
31:31I call son dropping dropping the names
31:34of their son to say I'm the parent that
31:36raised that boy that got the touchdown
31:38without any consciousness of the boys
31:40the other brother that is standing next
31:43to the father watching his brother score
31:45that touchdown is being ignored because
31:48he wasn't willing to risk his life and
31:50get a concussion to score a touchdown we
31:52need to this is this is the next growth
31:55work of men and as as I mentioned before
31:59it is not just an initiation process
32:02initiation processes are excellent but
32:05and an initiation processes help boys to
32:08move from you are being cared for by a
32:10parent to now is your time to be to be
32:13the one that's accountable the one
32:15that's responsible the one that's the
32:17one that has to do more than just be
32:20served you're the one that also serves
32:22that's the positive function of an
32:23initiation process but that initiation
32:26process cannot exist effectively when
32:29it's independent of an entire lifetime
32:32of being brought up to serve and be
32:34responsible and be accountable as well
32:37as to be to be served at times and to
32:42have your own feelings be able to be
32:44heard
32:44I watched the red pill film and thought
32:47it was really interesting it was it's
32:48it's subtitle of feminist goes inside
32:50the men's rights activist movement and
32:52as you see in the film she changes her
32:55her mind about some of the things that
32:57she is but I also had a kind of
32:59suspicion that it's a very good
33:01narrative and as a documentary maker I
33:03kind of thought
33:04how much of that was actually authentic
33:05did she really was she really a a
33:07feminist or is it it's quite convenient
33:09that she changed their mind but you what
33:12was your experience of her when when you
33:14met her and did you see that journey
33:16yourself I have had the advantage of
33:19seeing Cassie from feminist days and
33:23feminist initial interviews where she
33:26would use words like patriarchy and
33:28dominate and stuff like that that all
33:30revealed since they came out of her so
33:32naturally combined with the fact that
33:34her last two films were very liberal
33:37this all revealed an honesty about her
33:40being a genuine liberal and a genuine
33:43feminist and so and I could see her you
33:46know listen with the pretense of an open
33:49mind but then we and then I saw the the
33:53challenges that she went through we
33:55happen to live near each other so when
33:57she and she shared with me and I shared
34:00in the film I believe to the fact that
34:02the first time she when she listened to
34:05us she pretended to listen and absorb
34:09and not be filled with objections but
34:13her mind was coming up with feminist
34:16answers to our questions and the
34:18discounting of what we were saying and
34:21it was only when she went over the
34:23transcripts of every single interview
34:25she did of 40 people that she realized
34:28that we were not saying what she was
34:31having her mind say that we were saying
34:33that we were saying things that were
34:35very different and that there was almost
34:37nothing that she could disagree with and
34:39so she began to play our message by her
34:44feminist friends thinking my goodness I
34:46really heard something different and
34:48this is really an important part of what
34:50needs to be a doddle dialogue not a
34:52monologue and and she did that and then
34:55she started getting scared because
34:56almost all of her feminist friends were
34:58just completely unwilling to hear any of
35:01it and this shocked her because she
35:03assumed as a feminist that our friends
35:06were open-minded and this is exactly the
35:08same process I went through and
35:10see he came to me and said I'm a fear
35:11afraid is it true that said that these
35:14women are not listening that are they
35:15gonna unbecoming are they good am I
35:17going to lose my financing am I gonna
35:19lose my reputation I'm gonna be the
35:21devil like you are and and I said yes
35:24and she went whoa that was not the I
35:28expected assurance not that answer and I
35:31said but he will also be known for your
35:33integrity you'll also be free to do and
35:35say and and do films in the future that
35:38are your that come from where you what
35:40you discover not what other people who
35:42financed you want you to discover and
35:45you'll become a free agent and that's
35:46what happened for me I became free to
35:48say what I to do the research on the boy
35:51crisis that led me to understand that
35:53boys do so much work worse when they
35:57don't have a significant amount of
35:58father involvement and just to say that
36:01and then to document 70 different ways
36:03that that was true and and not be
36:05fearful that I shouldn't say this but I
36:07can say this and how could I say that
36:09and how can I twist it and turn it to be
36:11a good boy to mommy and it was like I
36:14was freed to be my own agent and that's
36:17what Cassie has freed herself to do by
36:19moving to the next level and I said yeah
36:22you have to make the decision you'll
36:23either be you know you'll be well
36:26financed and comfortable or you will be
36:29go through some Theo's challenges
36:32but you will also create new allies and
36:34people who have deep respect for what
36:37you're doing and I think when it comes
36:38to gender issues the red pill is by far
36:41the most courageous documentary that has
36:44ever been created even the name the red
36:47pill has been associated with a lot of
36:48misogyny and online kind of anti women
36:52sentiment do you think that's fair or
36:55not there is some you know in some of
36:59the reddit places and other places there
37:01is speaking out against women that has
37:05gone way beyond what I'm comfortable
37:07with
37:07and I also as somebody who listens to
37:10people couples all the time exaggerate
37:14what is the challenge that they find in
37:16their partner when people exaggerate and
37:19overdo their exaggeration
37:22they usually have not been heard and
37:24once they've been heard that
37:26exaggeration diminishes you know and one
37:29of the one of the mindsets that I ask
37:31couples to do in a workshop is to
37:33imagine a stream and the anger that your
37:36partner has is like pollution in that
37:40stream and what we have when people
37:42don't get listened to whether it's Men's
37:44Rights people or red pill people is we
37:46have a huge amount of anger and the
37:48solution is being the filter that allows
37:51them to share what their hurt and their
37:52pain is and then watch and be it
37:55anticipate a much greater purity and
37:59beauty and wonderful water on the other
38:02side of that a filter of your attitudes
38:05really changed and in respect to
38:07feminism
38:07well my attitudes have not changed in
38:11respect to gender roles I don't consider
38:15myself a feminist and I don't consider
38:17myself a men's liberationist or a men's
38:19rights movement person I consider myself
38:22an advocate of gender liberation and I
38:25want both sexes to be liberated from
38:27rigid roles of the past and to be open
38:29to more flexible roles for the future
38:31and so my my desire is I do support the
38:37expansion of men's and boys
38:40consciousness and expansion of our
38:42concern for what's happening for Ben's
38:44and men and boys because I feel that
38:46like for the last half-century we've
38:49been putting our binoculars on women's
38:52experience we've put our binoculars on
38:55women's experience of powerlessness and
38:58women's experience of men's power we
39:03haven't had our binoculars at all on
39:05men's experience of powerlessness and
39:08men's experience of female power when a
39:13fourteen-year-old boy considers begins
39:16to feel his testosterone and his desire
39:20for sexuality and he sees a cheerleader
39:23in his junior high school class cheering
39:26and he begins to have feelings and
39:27desires for her he knows that she is
39:30most likely to be attracted to the
39:32football team members and not him
39:34and so he fears that if he doesn't get
39:36on that football team the chances of him
39:39having any type of connection with her
39:42is minimal and so he feels enormous ly
39:46powerless toward every female to whom
39:49he's attracted if he's a heterosexual
39:51boy and and so that is an example of the
39:56female experience of the male experience
39:58of powerlessness visa vie girls and
40:01women but it's only one of many examples
40:03and so the and so there's been no
40:08credence given to that experience of
40:11powerlessness and we fundamentally
40:14misunderstood the whole idea of male
40:17privilege and male power it one of the
40:21experiences that I do in my in my
40:23workshops is to ask everybody in my
40:26audience to think about what they're
40:29what created the glint in their father's
40:31eye
40:32and so I put everyone through a sort of
40:35guided imagery of thinking about did
40:39your father have a glint in his eye when
40:42he was writing poetry when he was an
40:44artist when he was fishing when he
40:47played golf and when he was let's say a
40:51when if you're a little bit older maybe
40:53when he was playing with your children
40:55and you noticed that he was playing with
40:56your children
40:57he had a type of freedom that was not
40:59encumbered by his need to tell you what
41:02to do
41:02or to criticize you you know and so
41:04everybody eventually comes up with a
41:07glint in their dad's eye or if they
41:09don't didn't know their dad their
41:11imagination of what created the glint of
41:13their dad's eye and so after I do that
41:16experience I then ask them to imagine
41:20consider what created the glint in your
41:22dad's eye versus what your dad actually
41:24did for a living and which one of those
41:27two things would have been likely to
41:30make more money would he have been
41:31likely to make more money writing poetry
41:33or singing or in a choir in the church
41:37or you know doing something like that or
41:39did it was he more likely to make more
41:41the consistent consistent dependable
41:44money as an accountant as an engineer or
41:47whatever he did and so that's and most
41:51people you know come up with the the the
41:53belief and understanding that their
41:55father gave up the glint in his eye to
41:57do what he felt he had to do to earn the
42:00type of money that the family needed to
42:03support itself so dad's gave up the
42:06glint in their eye to create a new glint
42:09in their eye and the new glint was you
42:11as a child being successful you as a
42:14child having more opportunities
42:16privileges and an options that he had so
42:20let's look at that the father played his
42:23role which was to sacrifice the glint in
42:27his eye to be able to help you have more
42:30of a better life to be able to be on the
42:33protest line and the feminist movement
42:35let's say and so and now you're calling
42:38that male privilege and male power as if
42:42it was a part of the role of an
42:44oppressor in fact that was the
42:47discrimination against your dad was the
42:50discrimination that said it's your role
42:52because you're a male to earn more money
42:55so your dad went out and did things that
42:57were less of less fulfilling he drove a
43:00cab he drove an uber he drove he did he
43:03worked in a coal mine he worked as a
43:05firefighter as a police officer he went
43:08into the military so he could have
43:09stable dependable income so you could
43:12have more options and now you're turning
43:14that against him and saying that he had
43:16male privilege and he had male power you
43:18have no compassion understanding of the
43:20male role and what was the expectation
43:23on him and you know if we said to the
43:25two mothers you are the oppressors
43:29because you was stayed at home and took
43:33care of the children and had all that
43:34love a connection and the man had to go
43:37out and work in the coal mine you
43:39oppressed him and made him do that we
43:42would have no understanding of of the
43:44fact that the mother was pressured into
43:47raising children and the dad was
43:49pressured into raising money those were
43:51two roles that we that we
43:52depended upon for survival let's be
43:55compassionate to the the let's let's get
43:59on our knees and thank our mothers and
44:01fathers for the sacrifices that they
44:03made to be able to free us to think
44:06beyond just making sacrifices and so
44:09that's where the feminist movement
44:11should be that what the feminist
44:13movement movement has evolved into is a
44:16dichotomous movement dichotomous
44:18movement in which it says there are
44:20oppressors and oppressed that type of
44:22thinking grew out of Marxist feminism in
44:25which there was these statement that the
44:28people who were the the upper the
44:31bourgeoisie they're there they are the
44:33oppressors and they and they and then
44:35there's the oppressed and before that
44:37the civil rights movement where there
44:39truly was the oppressors and the
44:40oppressed and and so from that oppressor
44:44oppressed model the feminist movement
44:46developed which was a completely in a
44:48very appropriate model for civil rights
44:51and a very inaccurate model for men and
44:54women in which we were all in the same
44:56family boat which our mothers and
44:58fathers were both making sacrifices in
45:00the hopes that our lives would be better
45:02than their lives were and we have
45:04completely missed the male contribution
45:06to our fathers and grandfathers helping
45:09to make our lives so privileged that we
45:12can sit here and talk about these things
45:14in ways our fathers and grandfathers
45:16were never privileged to do this is very
45:19interesting because I speak to some
45:22there's this concept of the patriarchy
45:24yes and I speak to some women who who
45:28have a much more nuanced understanding
45:30on one side you have a sort of almost
45:32conspiracy theory type idea of the
45:33patriarchy it's men oppressing women
45:35throughout history hoarding all of the
45:37money and the power but you I do speak
45:40to a lot of other women and have a much
45:41more nuanced understanding of it and
45:44saying well no the patriarchy is a
45:46system that forces both men and women
45:48into roles that they don't they they
45:50don't that don't fulfill them and that
45:52don't speak to their deepest needs it
45:55sounds like you're you're coming from
45:57that same perspective if you want to
45:59define it that way I'm disagreeing with
46:01both perspectives okay I'll take one at
46:03a time
46:04so let's go in
46:06almost every Gender Studies course the
46:09number one one of gender studies 101
46:13advocates that we've lived in a world
46:16dominated by a patriarchy in which men
46:18made the rules to benefit men at the
46:20expense of women there's virtually no
46:22gender studies teacher at a major
46:24university that would disagree with that
46:26and I say that's completely inaccurate
46:29what is that more accurate from my
46:31perspective is that we've lived in a
46:33world that's dominated by the need to
46:35survive and and in that attempt to
46:39survive most cultures developed roles
46:42that were different for a minute for
46:44women women risk their lives in
46:46childbirth and and made sacrifices to
46:49raise their children effectively men
46:51risk their lives raising money and risk
46:54their lives in war to protect the
46:56children that the women bore and so both
46:59sexes made different types of sacrifices
47:02and so because that was what was
47:05necessary for survival and so that the
47:08dominating force was not patriarchy but
47:10survival I disagree with the second
47:13premise because it is because it is not
47:18appropriate I don't believe to call it a
47:21patriarchy that forced both sexes into
47:24roles that would be as as mistaken as
47:27calling it matriarchy that forced both
47:30sexes into roles in fact in most nations
47:33mothers care more that their children
47:35get married and that's stayin to strict
47:38roles that there's that there's their
47:40women in many respects and in many
47:43cultures are more conservative more
47:45attached to roles than the men are and
47:48so but it really doesn't make any
47:49difference which which cultures have
47:51which percentage of men and women that
47:53are attached to roles what is true is
47:55that using the word patriarchy to say
47:57that that patriarchy hurt both sexes is
48:00as misleading as using the word
48:04matriarchy because it sort of tends to
48:07blame men as or it would blame women if
48:10we said a matriarch a force both sexes
48:13into both roles and so I'd like to say
48:16rather than using the word patriarchy or
48:18matriarchy
48:19it was survival needs and does it the
48:23desire to survive that led most cultures
48:26to figure out what roles men and women
48:29could play to help the next generation
48:31to survive and thrive to a greater
48:33degree so we're leading men's work and I
48:37found it really really since I started
48:39sort of going to a men's group a few
48:41years ago I found it a really positive
48:43thing oh really
48:43it's really helped and we talked about
48:47vitamin M that in some sense we're all
48:50as men craving that that contact with
48:53other men a real honest communication
48:54that real Brotherhood do you do you
48:58think it's really important that that
48:59men have that kind of level of support
49:02and connection with other men yeah
49:03absolutely it's a the moment that men
49:06get together and talk and share what's
49:09going on in their lives is they do
49:12something revolutionary which is when
49:15they're talking about their real
49:16feelings and their real experiences of
49:19life they are they are taking themselves
49:22out of an isolation pit which is what
49:25every man was trained to be experiencing
49:29and they they open up and they're
49:31they're freer to see themselves in
49:34relation to their peers they realize
49:35that friendships are not based on
49:37keeping themselves to themselves
49:39and drinking instead and taking drugs
49:42instead you know men you know die from
49:46drugs and from alcohol and from car act
49:50you know reckless driving far more than
49:53women do we commit suicide far more than
49:55women do
49:55and when one looks in the boy crisis
49:58book at the at the 60-plus the red flags
50:02of depression
50:03you realize clearly that men Express to
50:05experience depression more than women do
50:08but we just never measured it in a male
50:10friendly way and so the psychological
50:13problems are much more the province and
50:16mental health problems are much more the
50:18problems of men and masculinity men were
50:21never designed to be healthy we were
50:24designed to be heroes héroes is
50:27preparation for a short life health
50:29intelligence is preparation for a long
50:31life
50:32that's the future of masculinity if it
50:34is not to be self harm as masculinity
50:38but it is to be emotionally intelligent
50:41and women are not going to want women in
50:45the future will not women in the future
50:48who are earning income will not want men
50:52who are just earning income they will
50:55want men who have emotional intelligence
50:57as well as success intelligence and so
51:00we have to if we want to be loved by
51:02women we have to develop the type of
51:05emotional intelligence that women will
51:08seek when they are successful
51:10economically I guess
51:12implicit in what you're saying is that
51:14men are encouraged to wear masks and to
51:18perform and to to be okay to be strong
51:22and what you get from a men's group is
51:25that you're you all you can all take off
51:27the mask together and the irony is that
51:30I find that women really want men who
51:34are authentic they don't really want men
51:36who are performing and they can kind of
51:38they want men who are who have strong
51:40bonds with other men and they want men
51:42who are in touch with themselves
51:43yes I know many women are alike which i
51:50think about I just said it I'm gonna go
51:52Superman and Lois Lane yes right okay
51:55let me start that again yes and no it
51:59depends on the woman many women are like
52:01Lois Lane they have no interest in Clark
52:03Kent but they have a lot of interest in
52:05Superman and once they find their
52:06Superman and they feel protected and
52:08they feel secure they want a man who can
52:10express feelings but that's within the
52:12framework of feeling secure by a man's
52:14protection first the problem is that the
52:16qualities it takes to succeed at work
52:18and the qualities it takes to succeed in
52:21performing are in tension with their
52:24almost inversely related to the
52:27qualities it takes to succeed in love so
52:30for example when you're when you're in
52:33the military and you are afraid of
52:36losing your life in battle you have to
52:38disconnect from your feelings in order
52:40to do what you have to do and so you
52:42cannot say gee I really value myself
52:45and the fact that I'm Jewish and I'm
52:47being called you know all sorts of
52:49negative anti-semitic names I should
52:52just seal that off and not say anything
52:54about it because you know I have to take
52:56it you know military people and men in
52:59general were trained to do what they had
53:02to perform well not just in the military
53:05where it's really clear but also of the
53:08Japanese have a word called Karoshi it
53:11is means death at the desk or death from
53:14overwork as an executive and Karoshi is
53:17is an understanding by the Japanese
53:19society that the men who are expected to
53:23perform in an economic type of way as an
53:26executive that the feminists say are
53:27that may have male privilege of male
53:29power but in fact it doesn't have they
53:31don't have male privilege of male power
53:33they have a male expectation to be
53:35willing to die says supply money to
53:37their family and so that a woman will
53:39marry them because he's a salary man who
53:42earns a lot of money and he then learns
53:45to value himself only because he earns a
53:47lot of money the corrosion of the
53:49Japanese have moved so far beyond that
53:52that one of the most popular games in
53:55Japan is a game called Karoshi and the
53:59people who win at the game of Karoshi
54:01they climb up the ladder before somebody
54:04else climbed up the economic ladder to
54:06get to the wall that they never maybe
54:08even wanted to so you get higher on and
54:11the winner of the game Karoshi offs
54:14himself that is commits suicide not in
54:16real life but in the game so the
54:19uncommon wisdom of many japanese youth
54:22is that the process that we've taught
54:24men to earn money to make more power or
54:27have more status is is actually a form
54:31of encouraging men to commit suicide and
54:34the and so therefore many boys who are
54:38growing up are saying if I don't want to
54:41follow my father's footsteps of climbing
54:44this ladder that with no choice about
54:46what I'm doing and I don't want to join
54:48the military and possibly die so what do
54:51I do how do I have purpose where do i
54:54channel it and that's where an entirely
54:56different dialogue
54:58needs to happen and women need to be
55:00part of the dialogue about healthy
55:03masculinity because a lot of us males
55:05are heterosexuals a lot of us males want
55:08women's love and women have the power
55:11that has not been acknowledged at all in
55:14this culture if women said I will only
55:17fall in love with I will only marry I
55:20will only have sex with men who walk on
55:23their hands we would be having hand
55:25walking contest starting tomorrow and
55:27after a month or two we would be
55:29competing to make sure that we can walk
55:31on one hand because Lea walking on two
55:34hands is common so I can walk on one
55:36hand seatmate and so as long as we have
55:39that type of need for female approval we
55:42need to recognize that being ourselves
55:44is not just functional for ourselves
55:47it's also functional for heterosexual
55:49love and women have to look at
55:51themselves and say do I really I want a
55:54yearning for a man who's authentic but
55:57if I'm falling in love with in the
55:58framework of men who are performers I'm
56:01going to be encouraging the men to
56:04perform and not be authentic and that's
56:07a responsibility I have to take and make
56:10sure I don't just fall in love within
56:12the framework of performers I'll give
56:18one very powerful story I think on that
56:20issue and this is a challenge for this
56:26is a challenge for almost every woman
56:28and a including very powerful and secure
56:31women as a rule like Gloria Steinem I
56:34remember going to a show that Alan Alda
56:35was going to be hosting in New York City
56:37eight years ago and with Gloria and we
56:39cab driver picked us up this is before
56:42over and a few decades before over and
56:45and the and Gloria was saying to me
56:48while we were waiting for the cab become
56:50you know how hard it is to find really
56:52good men and that men that are thinking
56:55that are thoughtful that are you know
56:56that are sensitive and so on we get into
56:58the cab and the cab driver recognizes
57:01Gloria especially after she says where
57:03we're going to a TV show
57:05and and and he starts and so Gloria's
57:08very it's a very gracious woman and says
57:11you know well what are you and you know
57:13involved with and he goes well you know
57:15I driving a cab now but I have a
57:16master's degree in anthropology and she
57:19says oh really and so he we had a
57:20wonderful discussion about different
57:22cultures and so on and the guy was very
57:24thoughtful and insightful and and you
57:27know and then Gloria Gloria and I get
57:30out of the cab and I said I said well
57:33there's a good man meaning just the
57:36opposite of what she had said about
57:38those men not being available and and
57:42then I looked at her I said do you see
57:44him as a possible candidate for your
57:46love and she's sort of like gulped and
57:51registered the point but the
57:53conversation ended there and what I am
57:57saying about that is that when a man is
58:01driving a cab or doesn't have the
58:03success that we want him to have in
58:06performance mode we often are as
58:09invisible to his better qualities as men
58:13are to a less attractive woman's better
58:16qualities born you've been leading men's
58:18groups since the 1970s what do men get
58:23from men's groups and how important is
58:25to is it for men to have those kind of
58:27relationships men get themselves from
58:32men's groups they learn in men's groups
58:34how to be human beings not just human
58:37doings they learn how the process of
58:40becoming a human doing often forces them
58:44to wear a mask that that shadows
58:48themselves as human beings even to
58:51themselves and to their children they
58:54learn that at the end of life almost no
58:57man says I wish I'd spent more time at
59:00the office I wish I spent more time in
59:02the battleground but says I wish I'd
59:05spent more time with my family I wish I
59:07was there for that recital I wish I was
59:09there to just have a family dinner
59:11nights more often where I could talk
59:12through with my son and my daughter
59:14what's going on in their life where I
59:16could really listen to them
59:17draw them out and give them maybe a
59:19little bit of pusher shove in a
59:20different area that's out of their
59:22comfort zone I wish I could take them
59:24camping more often I wish I could
59:27roughhouse with them more often I wish I
59:29could read stories to them at bedtime
59:31more often these are the things that men
59:33yearn for we work so hard because we
59:37want our families loved but then when we
59:40dip them when we oftentimes feel
59:41criticized and complained about and and
59:45disconnected from our families love we
59:48feel or we work very hard to become a
59:51great lawyer and we learn as a result of
59:54becoming a great lawyer that we are
59:56really good at listening for a criticism
59:59that we can give our oppose opposing
1:00:01lawyer and then when we listen to the
1:00:03criticism we can give our wives that the
1:00:05process that worked to make us a great
1:00:07lawyer made it us a terrible husband and
1:00:09a terrible father and so these are the
1:00:12types of things we discover by talking
1:00:14about our common experiences in a men's
1:00:16group because a lot of people listening
1:00:18to that would say well why can't men get
1:00:20that from a conversation with their
1:00:22wives a conversation and intimate
1:00:24relationship one of the reasons why it's
1:00:27hard for men to get that in the
1:00:28conversation with their wife is because
1:00:30they're they feel whether it's accurate
1:00:33or not they feel that their wife married
1:00:35them in part because they were
1:00:37successful in part because they when the
1:00:41going got tough they would stand up and
1:00:44get going but they didn't that their
1:00:46wife did not marry them because they
1:00:49felt like they want instead of becoming
1:00:52a medical doctor they said gee I don't
1:00:54want to become a medical doctor you know
1:00:56what I'd like to be I'd like to be an
1:00:57artist I may not be the best artists in
1:00:59the world but I'd like to at least try
1:01:00my creativity and develop that and by
1:01:03the way that's gonna take maybe five
1:01:04years of art school and maybe thirty
1:01:06years or twenty years of trying to sell
1:01:08my art but and most most women who
1:01:11married the doctor the lawyer or the
1:01:13executive they're not interested in that
1:01:15real feeling of what the boy or the boy
1:01:18becoming a man really wants to do that's
1:01:21what the men feel and if women really do
1:01:24feel that way about a man they need to
1:01:27make sure that they share
1:01:28responsibilities that they share
1:01:30sponsibility for asking the man out that
1:01:32they share responsibility for calling
1:01:34him up that when they go to dinner that
1:01:36they don't expect that he'll pay more
1:01:38than half the bill or pay the bill more
1:01:41than half the time that these are the
1:01:43little signs that men pick up about are
1:01:46you interested in me for who I am or do
1:01:48I have to pay the bill to be worthy of
1:01:51your company and if he has to pay a bill
1:01:54to be worthy of your company that means
1:01:56he's learning the lesson that to be
1:01:58worthy of your company he has to be
1:02:00successful therefore he has to wear the
1:02:02mask of success and therefore you're not
1:02:04interested in him taking off that mask
1:02:07and saying I don't want to pay for
1:02:09dinners more than half the time I don't
1:02:10want to pick you up I don't I don't want
1:02:13to buy your drinks any more than you buy
1:02:15my drinks I don't want to buy you a
1:02:17diamond when you don't buy me a diamond
1:02:19I want to really be as a partner
1:02:21together and I want to I want to be able
1:02:23to be free to earn less money and to
1:02:25perform less so I can be more fulfilled
1:02:28doing what I really want to do I want to
1:02:30be able to when the children are born to
1:02:32say who will take care of the children
1:02:35full-time part-time not assume that
1:02:37you'll have the choice and I'll have to
1:02:39go along with whatever your choice is
1:02:41these are all the things that are not
1:02:43being discussed in society at this
1:02:45moment that must be discussed that can
1:02:47come out in men's groups that men can
1:02:49realize that they're not alone and
1:02:51they're thinking about these things and
1:02:52then be able to articulate them to both
1:02:56their wives but before we articulated
1:02:58these things to our wives we have to
1:03:01articulate these things to ourselves and
1:03:07there's no safer space to do that in a
1:03:09men's group because there's no fear of
1:03:11being judged by a woman in a men's group
1:03:15let me say one more thing about that and
1:03:18this is because not because we don't
1:03:20want women it is because we want women
1:03:24so much that we have become over
1:03:27dependent upon women's approval and that
1:03:30ironically unmake sus the man that the
1:03:34woman wants
1:03:37it is not quite a catch-22 I think it's
1:03:41a type of insight that is a type of new
1:03:46male wisdom which is why I called the
1:03:49game Karoshi that the Japanese play boys
1:03:54uncommon wisdom and we have to learn
1:03:57just like a woman had to learn in the
1:04:0060s that becoming the type of woman that
1:04:04a man wanted her to be having a certain
1:04:06waist and a certain size and looking a
1:04:09certain way and putting makeup on over
1:04:11herself that that the makeup was was
1:04:15making up the gap between the power she
1:04:17had and the power she wanted to have and
1:04:19that was putting on a false face well
1:04:22men have makeup to male makeup is I am
1:04:25dr. Warren Farrell best-selling author
1:04:27of the boy crisis and what's my makeup
1:04:31I'm doctor best-selling author
1:04:35that's all makeup it's me being afraid
1:04:38of saying I'm also Warren Farrell
1:04:40vulnerable human being in these five or
1:04:42six ways and this is I guess the the
1:04:45paradox that's quite difficult to
1:04:47understand from the outside but I know
1:04:49it to be true in the men's work that
1:04:50we're doing that the work that I'm doing
1:04:52with other men is about being grounded
1:04:56in myself to then meet women from a much
1:04:58more empowered place yes like that's
1:05:00that's a cart that I guess is a catch-22
1:05:02that by going more deeply into our my
1:05:04own masculinity I can then meet women
1:05:07much more grounded because I don't need
1:05:09anything from them I'm not in fear of
1:05:10them I've resourced myself elsewhere
1:05:12that's a paradox I guess it's a paradox
1:05:15but it's also we have to respect women
1:05:17enough to know that so when I was dating
1:05:19I was single for 21 years before between
1:05:22my first and my second marriage to the
1:05:24woman I've been involved with for the
1:05:26last 24 years and the HOS now my wife
1:05:29and and during that period of dating I
1:05:32often I made it very clear to women that
1:05:35I would not be picking up the check
1:05:37no and I never asked a woman out I
1:05:40discussed whether we had enough interest
1:05:42in each other to pursue something
1:05:45further and then I asked her if she said
1:05:48yes as I said well you know
1:05:50where do we want to go from here with
1:05:52this and the woman we usually say well
1:05:53let's go out together and so I'd help
1:05:56incorporate her as a partner in the
1:05:58decision to continue our relationship at
1:06:01dinner together and then I would say and
1:06:03I had the advantage of her knowing what
1:06:06I did but there were some women that one
1:06:09a woman was a president of a local now I
1:06:12will not reveal who or where and she was
1:06:15out with me and when it came to dinner
1:06:16and the end she expected that I would
1:06:19pick up the check even though she was a
1:06:20now president and and I said explain to
1:06:25her that I didn't believe in picking up
1:06:26the check I believed in sharing or I
1:06:28fight about picking up the check this
1:06:30time and that I liked Terra that we
1:06:32could pick up the she could pick up the
1:06:35next check and or she could cook a meal
1:06:37for me and so and she started to cry and
1:06:40and then she got so embarrassed at
1:06:43herself and to her credit she said I am
1:06:46so embarrassed Here I am the president
1:06:49of a now chapter and I am upset because
1:06:52I feel like I really like you and if you
1:06:55don't pick up the check there's a part
1:06:57of me that believes that if a man
1:06:59doesn't pick up the check it's because
1:07:01he doesn't like me or respect me and I'm
1:07:03afraid of that and so I had enormous
1:07:07respect for her for crying and revealing
1:07:09on what she said but what I found and
1:07:11this is where I'm going with this what I
1:07:13found is that when I shared why I didn't
1:07:17want to pick up the check more than half
1:07:19the time why I didn't want to put myself
1:07:21in a position where I could not make
1:07:23enough money to be able to share say
1:07:25what I needed to say in the world
1:07:28because I was paying out a lot of money
1:07:29toward supporting women then I would
1:07:33that women looked at me and they said
1:07:35they saw on the one hand like gee most
1:07:40men who wouldn't pay more than at least
1:07:42half or more wouldn't pay for dinner for
1:07:45me they must not like me or there must
1:07:48be cheapskates I saw a different
1:07:51experience for most women but not all
1:07:53women which was he has enough courage to
1:07:56say what almost no other man has enough
1:07:57courage to say and said they saw the
1:07:59strength behind that most women did
1:08:02but other women some of whom I was very
1:08:05attracted to and some of whom I would
1:08:07felt I would be able to be sexual with
1:08:10that evening if we had completed this
1:08:12dinner process I had to get up all the
1:08:15courage I could to realize that I was
1:08:18probably going to forfeit being
1:08:20emotionally and sexually involved that
1:08:22evening if I said something like that
1:08:25and so it is and so first of all we need
1:08:30to submit in the long run I found a
1:08:33woman who was responsive to that
1:08:36who was there up to who I was very
1:08:38attractive to attracted to and yet she
1:08:42did respond to that to the courage and
1:08:44didn't have a need to be paid for all
1:08:46the time
1:08:47even though she had never been paid she
1:08:50had never had to pay a single penny on
1:08:52any date in her entire life up until
1:08:54that point she was able to reverse her
1:08:57paradigm because I was strong enough in
1:08:59my apéro dime and so I'm asking men via
1:09:03the support of members Roop's to be able
1:09:05to be strong enough in their paradigm
1:09:08shift to be able to share that with
1:09:10women with compassion and to be able to
1:09:12hear the woman that maybe can't hear you
1:09:15first time around and to explain with
1:09:20love as you're listening also to her
1:09:23what you what you feel and you what you
1:09:25believe in or on fire thank you very
1:09:27much it's been a pleasure the second
1:09:30part of this interview was Warren
1:09:31Farrell is available exclusively for
1:09:34patrons through our patreon site we used
1:09:38to have a battle of the sexes
1:09:39that's been historical but now we no
1:09:42longer have a battle of the sexes we
1:09:44have a war in which only one side has
1:09:47shown up and to turn these words into
1:09:49action
1:09:50rebel wisdom is running our own
1:09:52workshops for men and women in the UK
1:09:54check our events page for details
1:09:57[Music]
1:10:03you

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