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Men and Women after #metoo, a new relationship? (part 1 of 3) — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:05welcome to the latest rebel wisdom
0:07podcast I'm really excited about this
0:09one because it's some of the best
0:12interviews that we've done recently that
0:14we're making live at the same time as
0:16we're releasing this I'm going to show
0:18some clips from them and there is a
0:21theme and the theme is masculinity and I
0:25guess the sub theme is it's what about a
0:29year now since me too and since a lot of
0:32these gender dynamics started becoming
0:33really prevalent and really part of the
0:36culture and that's been a big theme of a
0:37lot of the stuff that we've been doing
0:38so what we've got coming up at the same
0:41time is two interviews and another round
0:46of content probably bout a week after
0:48that so we have an interview with Cassie
0:51J who directed the red pill film and
0:54we've got into Warren Farrell who is
0:57often called the father of the men's
1:00movement but I think our experience when
1:03we met him in America and interviewed
1:06him is that he's got a lot more to offer
1:10than that sort of characterization he's
1:12a therapist he does couples counseling
1:14he's deeply interested in how to create
1:16healthy relationships and this
1:18ultimately I think is the theme of a lot
1:21of the content we're putting out is what
1:25if if what we're seeing at the moment is
1:28tantamount to a kind of dysfunctional
1:30relationship between men and women
1:32playing out on the wider cultural stage
1:34what does a healthy relationship look
1:36like kind of linked to what we've been
1:38discussing recently around the shadow I
1:40think along with that question is what
1:42is the shadow of masculinity but then
1:45also less discussed what is the shadow
1:48of femininity and I was thinking about
1:52this but before I think about this a lot
1:54actually because the shadow of the
1:57masculine that that was the me to
2:00movement as well was kind of showing up
2:03the shadow of the masculine which is
2:04obviously something that needs to happen
2:06the shadow of the feminine is harder to
2:10pin down I think
2:11if you look at it in if you were to take
2:14it just as a thought experiment in kind
2:15of Taoist terms and you had each
2:18opposite implies the other but there
2:21really have to be opposite so if you see
2:23and they would in kind of Chinese towers
2:26and they see the masculine is obvious
2:28and it's bright and it's right there
2:31so the masculine shadow would be the
2:34same it's so clear it's domination it's
2:37controlled it's it's sort of its
2:39aggressive it's all these things that
2:41are quite easy to look at and easy to
2:43define absolutely so by by that then the
2:47shadow of the feminine should
2:48automatically be shrouded mysterious
2:51complex and I think that is one of the
2:55powerful things about the red pill in
2:56the whole phenomena of red pilling is
2:58that it lifts a veil on AHA Wade this
3:03there's a sense with the red pill I
3:05think that a lot of people have watching
3:06it I certainly did where I had a sense
3:10of were the very water the very cultural
3:13water I was swimming in is not what they
3:15appear to be I think it I want to
3:17interject here because we're two men
3:22talking about the female shadow what I
3:24want to say and what I think is really
3:26interesting about the content we've got
3:27coming up because we've got there was a
3:29film done by a friend of ours Hannah who
3:33did this film called from women to men
3:35all about the female shadow and we've
3:38got a long interview with her and a long
3:39interview with a couple of the other
3:40women who appeared in that film about
3:42the female shadow and about their
3:44ownership of of the ways they've acted
3:47out and I think what's interesting as
3:49well now is that there is a cultural as
3:51I said we're about a year after me too
3:52and I think the cultural conversation is
3:56now at this point of recognizing we had
4:00me to this kind of essential voicing of
4:03a lot of suppressed anger or a lot of
4:05suppress a lot of boundary setting by
4:07women saying no this is not acceptable
4:09behavior and where we are now especially
4:12with Asia Argento one of the prime
4:15movers of the me to movement has the
4:21has turned out to be it looks a sexual
4:24predator herself who'd paid off an
4:27underaged guy that she'd slept with and
4:30there was a really interesting article
4:32quite recently by Barry Weiss in the New
4:34York Times where she said this shows
4:37that women are human too which is
4:40basically what a lot of people have
4:44wanted to hear it's like this this very
4:46simplistic dynamic of women as only
4:49victims and men as only perpetrators is
4:51such a one-sided dynamic and now the
4:56cultural conversation seems to have
4:58swung to to this this place where we are
5:02hopefully allowed to say men have a dark
5:06side women have a dark side and it can
5:09now be a more balanced conversation and
5:11that's what I think really exciting
5:12about the content we're putting out
5:13because I think we're asking that
5:14question and we're also asking
5:17especially in the response to the red
5:19pill like there's one thing as the film
5:22and the the other thing is the cultural
5:26response to the film and the incredibly
5:28harsh reception that it got from a lot
5:30of media platforms especially millennial
5:31platforms like Vox and Vice I mean the
5:35red pill is a very controversial film
5:37and there were quite a few things said
5:40about it and it was when we were in
5:42America interviewing Warren Farrell and
5:44he happens to be a neighbor of Cassie J
5:45the the woman who made it and Cassie J
5:48still describes herself as a liberal she
5:50was a feminist when she went into making
5:51the film and I I had a bit of a
5:55suspicion as a filmmaker watching it it
5:58just seemed so convenient that a
6:02self-described feminist would go inside
6:04the men's rights movement and have her
6:06mind changed by what she found and I
6:08have to say I was a little bit
6:09suspicious about that I was a little bit
6:10suspicious about how how it was a
6:14perfect narrative and speaking to Warren
6:18and this was unprompted I wasn't kind of
6:21we weren't interrogating him about
6:22Kathy's journey or anything like that he
6:24just volunteered that Cassie had come to
6:26him and said I went in I wanted to do
6:29something we were an expose on the men's
6:31rights activists
6:32and even when she interviewed them she
6:35had in the back of her mind a lot of
6:38feminist talking points and a lot of
6:40arguments without the way of saying and
6:42it wasn't until she started watching the
6:45the rushes back watching the the the
6:47film back the footage to make the
6:49documentary that she started listening
6:51more to what they were saying and
6:53understanding what they were saying and
6:54came out with an appreciation of wow
6:56there are some men's stories that are
6:58not being heard there are some struggles
7:01that men are having that are not being
7:02heard and are not part of the
7:03conversation and so she like I have
7:08pretty much 100% certainty that her
7:12journey was genuine and this was a
7:15subtext of an awful lot of the the
7:18coverage that the the need that sort of
7:20negative coverage of the red pill was
7:24people saying well just insinuating it
7:28wasn't genuine that it was somehow it
7:29was funded by men's rights activists and
7:31it was a it was a Trojan horse done by
7:34men's rights activists and I don't
7:36believe that I think it was a genuine
7:38film I think it was a genuine journey
7:39and the irony is under a different in a
7:44different circumstance she might be
7:45looked on as a as a real feminist hero
7:48she's a very successful documentary
7:51filmmaker I think with a lot of bravery
7:54as well she she talks about she did
7:55actually lose some some friends when she
7:58made the film and she I saw recently
8:01she's even been outed or by the Prophet
8:04the Southern Poverty Law Center which is
8:06a kind of anti extremist organization in
8:09America which seems to be an extremist
8:13organization itself it had to backtrack
8:15it it outed magical or Nawaz recently as
8:18an extremist and he is an anti extremist
8:21former Islamist that's really
8:23fascinating what can be said in the cult
8:25from what can't be said in the culture
8:26and the fact that a documentary like the
8:27red pill which along along with the
8:30men's rights activists in it also had a
8:32lot of feminist scholars in it as well
8:35and you don't have to kind of agree with
8:39everything the men's rights activists
8:40are saying in it but in terms of a film
8:43that adds an interesting perspective I
8:45think it's definite
8:46it definitely is that that film because
8:48why it was really interesting to talk to
8:49Cassie yeah just to back to your point
8:52about what you said that if I'm not
8:53really interesting in a different
8:55setting
8:55she might be held as a feminist hero I
8:58think that's true and I'm just trying to
9:00imagine what that setting might be it
9:02certainly it certainly seems kind of
9:04impossible now with the way feminism has
9:06moved at least because it's much more
9:08around it is in extra pick inextricably
9:12tied to the same postmodern ideologies
9:15that a lot of activism is tied to a lot
9:18of critical theory is kind of an
9:20academia is linked up in with the
9:22oppressor oppressed again a name just
9:24came up we were talking another very
9:27successful woman Clare layman and
9:29created the magazine quill let out of
9:31her kitchen and it's now one of the sort
9:33of most the biggest media success
9:36stories of the last couple of years but
9:39because quill let is very deliberately
9:42anti identity politics and an to the
9:45social justice left she is attacked on
9:47Twitter rather than celebrated as a as a
9:49successful woman the fact that it
9:52doesn't really matter even if you the
9:54ideology Trump's the personal story
9:57pretty much all the time with the
9:59identity politics left mmm yeah it does
10:01and it's it's also it's an impossible
10:05bind and it's also an interesting it
10:07it's an interesting indication the
10:08reaction to Clayman and Cassie J it for
10:13me really points this weirdness that we
10:15live in where the the identity politics
10:18left in particular has kind of the
10:20reigns of what's culturally acceptable
10:24and a lot of pop culture power and a lot
10:27of media power so they cannot even
10:32though they can act as the oppressor
10:34they can never admit that their acting
10:35is the oppressor because the entire
10:36worldview is based and there's only
10:38oppressor and oppressed and so when they
10:40are always on the side of the underdog
10:41yeah and so this makes it impossible for
10:44them to look inward of themselves and
10:46realize that they now have the power or
10:49a lot of power
10:50more than perhaps they realize or maybe
10:52not realize but want to realize and
10:55they're not using it responsibly and
10:56this is this the story of the last few
11:00years for me I think if you see it
11:02echoed everywhere and you see it echoed
11:04in the gender discussion as well I think
11:06so let's just hear a quick clip from
11:07that interview with Cassie I know that
11:09it helps a lot of people making this
11:12film and and but I don't think it's I
11:17don't think we're anywhere near where we
11:19need to be and I think the red pill
11:21movie was just a very early kind of
11:23icebreaker into these conversations but
11:25I think we have a long way to go with
11:27gender relations and and hopefully
11:30eventually finding a healthier
11:32relationship between the genders and the
11:35other interview that we're really
11:36excited about putting out is with Warren
11:38Farrell and we've talked before about
11:41how if you see culture as a kind of
11:44fractal pattern then the the fractal
11:48pattern or the patterns that we saw
11:49during the late 60s are still here but
11:52they've just got bigger and the the
11:54gender dynamics that first erupted in
11:56the 60s the rise of women's liberation
11:59and feminism and this this now to me
12:04feels like we're in the same dynamic but
12:06we look back and we kind of looked
12:08through the wrong end of the telescope
12:08we assumed that everyone back in the 60s
12:12was part of this movement but the fact
12:14that it that we know about it shows that
12:16it wasn't universal it was it was an
12:19outlier it was a new thing it was we
12:22were always attuned to the new and what
12:25some interesting about Warren Farrell is
12:27that he has been living this dynamic
12:29this same dynamic since the 60s a
12:32fascinating individual story because he
12:35was one of the very first male feminists
12:37he was part of the he was on the board
12:38of the National Organization for Women
12:40in America and he he then at the same
12:45time started leading men's groups and in
12:47the men's groups he was hearing stories
12:49that he realized were not part of the
12:50conversation and when he started
12:53bringing the experience of the way that
12:54men have been hurt and the way that men
12:56feel that they have to perform certain
12:58gender roles and that they are seen as
13:00success he uses the words for example
13:02that yes women
13:04women are often objectified and seen as
13:07sex objects and judged by their looks
13:09men feel that they're often judged by
13:11success he calls success objects they're
13:14judged by their ability to provide
13:16they're judged by their wealth they're
13:19judged by their status there was a
13:21beautiful moment I really I know that we
13:25both really enjoyed meeting him and
13:26spending time with him there's a really
13:28beautiful moment towards the end of the
13:29interview where he said men have makeup
13:31to male makeup is I am dr. Warren
13:35Farrell best-selling author of the boy
13:37crisis and what's my makeup I'm doctor
13:40best-selling author
13:43that's all makeup it's me being afraid
13:46of saying I'm also Warren Farrell
13:49vulnerable human being in these five or
13:51six ways considering he's often framed
13:54as the father of the men's movement and
13:56the men's movement especially in America
13:58has a really bad reputation and perhaps
14:01quite rightly I mean I asked him that in
14:03the interview whether he agreed that
14:05some of the bad press at the men's
14:07movement had was deserved and he agreed
14:08that it was and I think certainly a lot
14:11of the tactics that I see from some of
14:13the more extreme men's rights activists
14:15in America I can see why they have a bad
14:17reputation and it's not I don't think
14:20it's doing they're there cause any good
14:22they they kind of turn into the thing
14:24that they're supposedly fighting against
14:26but as I said at the beginning Warren
14:30Farrell is someone who's very much
14:32focused on what the healthy
14:34relationships look like what are the
14:36things that need to be expressed from
14:39men and from women so that we can have
14:40healthy relationships and if we have a
14:43culture where men are on one hand
14:48encouraged to express their feelings but
14:52also on the other hand often the culture
14:55will describe it as whining when then do
14:57express their feelings there's a kind of
14:59double bind and a lot of men feel stuck
15:02in that in the moment yeah what really
15:05struck me about Warren Farrell aside
15:07from him is an individual that I found
15:08it's very authentic is his his focus in
15:13in the myth of male power his first kind
15:15of best selling
15:15book it's very nuanced and it's really a
15:19balanced perspective of going into the
15:21economics and that also dictated the
15:26relationship structures we had for a
15:28very long time
15:29and pointing out that it's not as simple
15:31as just saying men were patriarchs and
15:33they held women down and just because
15:35you know because they're dysfunctional
15:36in some way it was it was a lot more
15:39complex than that and yes some of that
15:41went on of course but it was also a case
15:44of men had to go out and be the
15:46breadwinners men were expendable as well
15:49and then we shifted in the 60s and maybe
15:53slightly before to different kind of
15:55relationship for the first time ever
15:56happening so this is all very new the
15:58dynamics are experiencing all really
16:00fresh like yeah and so and now we said
16:04in the interview really nice thing which
16:06was around like we're not designed to be
16:09functional
16:10we're design in terms of like
16:11relationships how we relate to each
16:13other's men and women like which is time
16:14to be dysfunctional
16:15we're designed to survive basically what
16:17he says and that you know so we have he
16:20says we have an opportunity now where we
16:23have a lot more equality to figure out
16:25how do we how the hell do we get on with
16:28each other in a in a way that is
16:31conducive to our health and our
16:32children's health as well and I found
16:34that was the overriding message I got
16:36from him I think is in his work as well
16:38is it's really about I find that really
16:41useful framing that globally and I think
16:43we might have talked about this before
16:44what we're seeing is the result of an
16:47incredibly dysfunctional relationship
16:49it's like the gender dynamics we're
16:51seeing on the macro scale feel like the
16:54micro scale would be like two parents
16:56having a massive argument more like two
16:59teenagers having a massive argument I
17:00think there's a second part to that
17:02interview with Warren Farrell which is
17:04going to be a patreon exclusive so if
17:06you want to see that become a patron I
17:08hope that we are now at a stage where
17:11all sides of that debate can be heard
17:14because the eruption of Me 2 which was
17:17October last year it were it was said
17:19quite explicitly at times men now is now
17:23is not your time to speak and I can
17:25understand that because these are a lot
17:28of the time or voices that have
17:29heard for a long time and but that it
17:33cannot remain that cannot remain as a
17:36dynamic by definition a relationship has
17:39to be both sides speaking and I think a
17:44healthy relationship is where both sides
17:45are allowed to speak and I think a
17:47healthy cultural dynamic is when
17:50something like the red pill is made it
17:53is not immediately shut down is it not
17:55immediately criticized as I think vice
17:57called it you men's men's rights
17:59documentary another thing just
18:02came up for me that that he said
18:04relating to the kind of that I guess
18:07necessary outburst that happens after me
18:10to was you know procedure therapist who
18:13said obviously the longer someone's held
18:15something in the more it comes the more
18:17anger is behind it when it finally comes
18:19out and now I think was that was very
18:22evident there and that makes sense
18:24and I wonder now I see that anger as
18:27well in the men's rights movement as
18:29well and I understand why it's there too
18:31I do
18:32but the what the next stage looks like
18:36for me is a kind of a meeting where the
18:41anger has extinguished itself somewhat
18:43and maybe we're getting to that point
18:44but where the conversation comes it's a
18:47conversation about responsibility I
18:49think ultimately it's a conversation on
18:51both sides around what does it mean to
18:56be responsible for yourself and your
18:58actions as a human being
18:59whether you're a man or woman that's
19:00what you do in couple you know in
19:01couples counseling you talk from the eye
19:03you talk about yourself you talk about
19:05you don't you know actually again Warren
19:08made a really good point where he said
19:09having a dynamic like feminism has at
19:13the moment where everything is men's
19:15fault I'm being broad with families and
19:16I'm talking about maybe the the worst
19:18sides of it where everything is men's
19:20fault
19:21he equates it to a man going to a
19:23psychiatrist and sitting down I mean
19:25like right okay well I'm here but what
19:28you need to know is that everything is
19:29my wife's fault
19:30the reason I'm Peter is because of her
19:32and I've listed out 14 points around
19:35where she's a total out and I'm
19:36gonna list them out to you and you
19:37better agree with me otherwise I'm gonna
19:39stop
19:39the therapist selection and a similar
19:41impossible dynamic where nothing can
19:43happen that I still feel is what we're
19:46kind of largely in and that's why people
19:49are allowed to talk at university that's
19:50why Cassie is still as of like today
19:52getting slammed in the press and why
19:54there's just a lot of
19:55mischaracterization all around the place
19:58and I think something has to give some
20:00kind of humility or humanity has to give
20:04in order for that conversation start
20:06happening and on that point it might be
20:09a good time to talk about Hannah's film
20:12yeah so this is one of the most
20:16interesting and it's a sort of
20:18experimental thing that we've done Hanna
20:21produced this film which has gone pretty
20:23viral on online called from women to men
20:25I am a woman
20:28[Music]
20:30who has been hurt by men I'm a woman who
20:36has hurt men who has hurt men and she's
20:39a she's a conflict negotiator that's
20:42what she did for many years in some of
20:44the world so the most intractable
20:45conflict and the thing that she realized
20:48is that we cannot move forward until you
20:51own our part of whatever dynamic we
20:54can't move forward in any in any
20:56conflict until we own our side and we
20:58own the stuff that we've done and she
21:02then went through a process of sending
21:05this poem out to many other women and
21:07they then came together to make the film
21:10and a lot of them would then choose the
21:12bits of the poem that really spoke to
21:14them the things that they'd done in the
21:16past and a lot of them said they went
21:18through a real process through doing it
21:19as well there's a really controversial
21:22piece it's it had really polarized
21:25reaction online but it's had about a
21:26million views altogether and I've seen a
21:28lot of especially men from some of the
21:31the men's groups that I've seen online
21:32very touched by it a lot of people said
21:35it brought them to tears I do mean over
21:40time when we all take responsibility for
21:43the part each of us plays in this battle
21:45when we can truly empower ourselves by
21:49owning our parts of the mess and bring
21:53an end to the cycle of hurting and
21:55blaming I begin today I begin today I
22:01begin today I begin today you got a
22:06couple of films off the back of that one
22:07of which is an interview with Hannah and
22:10a couple of the other women who appeared
22:12in the film asking why why they've got
22:16involved in the project in the first
22:17place what they got from it and what the
22:20reaction was whether they have any
22:21regrets and another film which is
22:26slightly more experimental which is and
22:29as Hannah said in her in her film what
22:32she wanted was to start a new kind of
22:33conversation between women women and men
22:35and so we try and model that with Hannah
22:40her friend Elaine who appears in the
22:42film myself and Rath
22:44who is a facilitator a therapist who's
22:47been working for about 40 years with
22:48these issues the male and the female so
22:51basically this is an attempt to model
22:54this kind of conversation what does a
22:56healthy conversation between men and
22:57women look like which involves us taking
23:00ownership of our staff and then meeting
23:02from a place of real ownership and real
23:05communication and we'll see if that
23:08works yeah well hopefully it kind of has
23:11to work I think at some point globally
23:14that kind of conversation has to be the
23:15norm and in fact again to bring it back
23:18to Warren Farrell opus it was a long
23:19interview and he said lots of
23:20interesting things they're doing it in
23:22Denmark they're having their teaching
23:24children these types of conversation and
23:27that seems the natural thing is that
23:29this is a skill that people need to have
23:31is to be able to and I think personal
23:34responsibility is the beginning of it
23:37and I think what's really powerful about
23:40Hannah's film or just powerful about
23:42just the idea of that kind of
23:43conversation is that it starts with
23:45personal responsibility and that's where
23:47that seems to be what the culture is
23:49crying out for at the moment is this
23:51kind of a reconnection to personal
23:52responsibility and a movement away from
23:54everything's about being oppressed or
23:56being an oppressor and either being a
23:58victim or a perpetrator it's the yeah it
24:02seems to me like it that conversation
24:04can't really happen within that the
24:07environment within an environment based
24:10on a press or oppressed I think that
24:12just has to go like the broken green
24:14we've called it it had it's not a place
24:17for that conversation to happen that
24:18conversation needs to happen in some
24:21kind of new less ideological or post
24:25ideological space which hopefully is
24:28rising up somewhere or in the ether
24:31somewhere at the moment yeah I also want
24:33to say about Hannah's Vil that I've had
24:35very different reactions to it at
24:36different times when I first heard it
24:38when she delivered it as a poem in a
24:40therapeutic training I was really
24:42touched and it was it was a really
24:45powerful ownership and then when I've
24:47seen it since and I've seen the film
24:48sometimes I watched it and I just
24:50thought wow this is just it's so
24:53countercultural it almost feels too much
24:55because on its own it does feel
24:57balance it's like well okay but that's
25:00kind of the point is that it's almost
25:02like a little bomb in that inside that
25:04ideology because it's so anti the
25:07narrative that we live with all the time
25:08for women to pretty much just own their
25:14their stuff without any kind of context
25:19or balancing of men owning their stuff
25:21at the same time so it feels you know
25:24what
25:24on its own it feels slightly unbalanced
25:26but I guess that's the essence of great
25:28art in a way great art is not meant to
25:30make you feel comfortable it's mostly
25:32supposed to make you feel uncomfortable
25:33and even I have felt uncomfortable
25:35watching that film every now and again
25:37and yeah I hope that in the recording
25:42that we've put together with raffia
25:43there's a certain balance in terms of us
25:46owning our stuff and then building more
25:48of a complete conversation around it as
25:50well as you were as you're describing
25:52that that I know that feeling I call it
25:55like vicarious discomfort it's like a
25:58sense of how something will land in the
26:00culture and I feel like some part of me
26:03which of course were tribal pea beings
26:04now even if even there's a lot within
26:07the culture below I disagree with I
26:08still feel that twins I've again had a
26:11similar experience watching Hannah's
26:12film I think the first time it was
26:13incredibly emotional you know it's a
26:15real - really but a real heartfelt
26:18feeling of like relief of like wow okay
26:20that feels really just very loving and
26:23very responsible like really a really
26:25powerful loving feminine energy that it
26:29comes with that but also that feeling of
26:32like wow this is gonna be dynamite
26:33remember that was the that was what I
26:34thought first time so I was like wow
26:35this is gonna this is definitely gonna
26:37ruffle some feathers which it has yes
26:40yeah but again feather ruffling is is
26:43the point of art I think the point of
26:46good art and that's what leads to yeah
26:49growth I think it's worth also saying
26:51that our interest in these subjects it
26:53probably comes from our own histories in
26:56terms of a lot of the the kind of the
26:58inner work that we've done around
27:00masculinity we both teach men's work and
27:04ultimately these questions can only be
27:07resolved really an embodied
27:10it it cannot just become a conversation
27:13about masculinity and femininity because
27:15then you get into this kind of swampy
27:17relativistic suit of or what do you mean
27:19by masculine what do you mean by
27:20feminine surely we're just humans and
27:22then it it all starts to kind of become
27:24very relativistic very quickly whereas I
27:27know that my experience of doing work or
27:32a really connect with myself in my
27:34masculine that there's a real embodied
27:36presence that I can bring to these
27:37questions and then a lot of these kind
27:38of gender dynamics resolve themselves
27:41very very quickly and if you're watching
27:45this new you're interested in this
27:47subject we are teaching we've got a
27:49men's workshop coming up in November
27:50we've got a women's workshop coming up
27:52in September at the end of September
27:54that is being taught by some amazing
27:57facilitators including Hannah actually
27:59who did the film and we've got a
28:02polarity workshop coming up in January
28:04as well I think it's so important to tie
28:06this this content the ideas together
28:09with the embodied work because otherwise
28:12if we just stay up in the heads we just
28:13stay up in the conceptual realm and then
28:15nothing gets resolved I think it's also
28:17important to add none of the workshops
28:19about telling anyone what masculinity or
28:22femininity is it's really because you
28:24can't you each individual has to connect
28:27to what that is experientially within
28:30themselves and a space like that it's
28:33it's a flow state it's getting into a
28:35flow state and in a flow state the
28:38concepts the ideas they are of like
28:41they're not important at all in a sense
28:43it's the experience and so experience
28:46again is also what really like meeting
28:48human to human and communicating human
28:50to human that's also absolutely key in
28:54developing our own ideas but then also
28:56developing ideas collectively and on
28:59that now we also have another event
29:00coming up which is join the great
29:03intellectual awakening and that's going
29:05to be on the 18th of September in London
29:08we'll put
29:09notes down in the show notes with a link
29:12to it but again that event it's not just
29:14us talking about what's that's run it
29:17this is pretty much us trying to create
29:19that we've always wanted to create a
29:21community around these ideas and this is
29:24our first event to try and create that
29:25kind of community so we're gonna talk
29:28about rebel wisdoms were gonna talk
29:30about a history and show some of the
29:31clips from some of the films and then
29:33trying to create some kind of way of
29:36having having these kind of generative
29:37dialogues which we've talked about
29:39before what does it mean to have a
29:41dialogue where you go in genuinely
29:43trying from a place of not knowing and
29:45inquiring and and finding the answers
29:48for yourselves rather than this kind of
29:50very ideological way of trying to kind
29:53of persuade someone that you're right
29:54yeah or what Jordan Greene whole talk
29:55about like the old broadcast model or
29:58something you know T we cultural be
30:01broadcast to you an idea through
30:02broadcast to you and we live in a
30:04different paradigm now which is the more
30:06decentralized kind of knowledge sharing
30:1018th of September if you're in London
30:12come along to the great intellectual
30:14awakening and one other thing we've got
30:19we've recently put up a few pieces on
30:21patreon for patrons only
30:24we've got another amazing piece with Tim
30:27lot who we had an interview with
30:29recently talking about the links between
30:32Jordan Peterson and Alan Watts and
30:35Jordan Pederson has often been described
30:38as doing for Western philosophy and
30:42Western spirituality what Alan Watts did
30:46for Eastern spirituality back in the 50s
30:48and 60s and there's really interesting
30:51parallels between the two and really
30:54interesting differences between the two
30:55as well and Tim lot who was the first
30:57guy to write a profile of Jordan
30:59Peterson for The Spectator magazine in
31:02look yeah last year also is an expert on
31:07Alan Watts so we had a really
31:09interesting dialogue with Tim and that's
31:11we're gonna put that live on patreon in
31:13the next few days so if you're
31:15interested in that or you want to see
31:16the second part of the Warren Farrell
31:17interview then become a patron
31:21thanks for watching and see you next
31:22time

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