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Men and women after #metoo, a new conversation? — Transcript

by Rebel Wisdom · 8,561 words · 1,159 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00[Music]
0:05so Hana you put together a film called
0:07from women to men and it's gone pretty
0:11viral online it's had we think over
0:13about a million views
0:14lots of polarized reactions and you're
0:18as you say in the film what you want is
0:21to start a new conversation between
0:23women and men and in the film it's a you
0:27and a lot of other women including ile
0:29am owning parts of themselves that
0:31they're not they're not proud of the
0:33female shadow and it's created a really
0:37polarized reaction but as as you say in
0:42the film you want to start a new
0:43conversation between women and men so
0:45hopefully we can start that happening
0:48now but I'd love to hear a bit more
0:50about your background and what you hope
0:54to achieve through the film what what
0:55you want that conversation to look like
0:57so I'm working in conflict resolution
0:59since more than 10 years and mediating
1:01huge conflicts on various levels it's
1:04always the experiences always that our
1:07concepts we are so used to thinking of
1:11either I'm right or you are right either
1:13I'm the victim or I'm the perpetrator
1:15either I'm wrong or you're wrong either
1:18it's my fault or it's you fault
1:19that they're never true and that they
1:22are never leading anywhere I just
1:24realized that it's as true what is true
1:26for any every conflict is just true for
1:29the wounding between men and women and
1:32in the gender war as well and I'm really
1:34dreaming of a new step and a new
1:37dialogue at the cultural level it feels
1:40like we're in a really dysfunctional
1:42relationship between men and women and
1:44that I guess is what kind of where the
1:47film came from and also what we're
1:49trying to achieve through this dialogue
1:51as well so to me it's very interesting
1:52to analyze the wound between men and
1:55women because I think had some special
1:57insights into years of prostitution ten
2:00years ago in my life and when I started
2:03writing a book about it like just one
2:06year ago I realized I'm not the victim
2:10and I
2:11not the aggressor I'm both roads as a
2:14prostitute and I think prostitute is
2:16mainly seen as the victim and the client
2:19of prostitute is mainly seen as an
2:21aggressor and when I started writing
2:23about the clients sexuality as I
2:25remember it I felt we have not address
2:28us they are not the winners and no
2:31client on earth feels like a winner
2:33they are sufferer they suffering so
2:35deeply and are helpless and overwhelmed
2:37and like also victims and I think by
2:41writing this I somehow surprised myself
2:43and then Hanif wrote to me in email
2:46because she read this book when I think
2:48your script just just came out of your
2:52inspiration and I think then we had
2:56these perilous and fear felt this is a
2:59new aspect or dynamics between the sexes
3:03that is as needed as me too and then I
3:06think due to this book and the parallel
3:09to the film we got close with each other
3:11very soon and I was reading the script
3:15and feeling whoa after all the trailer
3:17doing stuff that I'd written this is
3:19really challenging and this is really
3:21taboo and then I need a time to digest
3:24and also I had an immediately immediate
3:27yes at the same time I didn't want to
3:29push myself over my limits because I
3:32felt it's not about my shadow was gone
3:35when I participate in the film it's whoa
3:38I'm more deeply connected with my shadow
3:40it's still there and so I I was I was
3:44happy about the time between getting to
3:47know the script and participating in the
3:49film because it was already a huge
3:50healing journey for me and it went on
3:53after the film I'm so so grateful and
3:55touched by this invitation I think
3:57because it really opens another aspect
4:00of an interesting and lively dialogue
4:02instead of something where we have to
4:04say are we the good ones or the bad ones
4:07and it seems as if collectively I don't
4:11know some something is ready that things
4:14show up now and in the meat too we can
4:17see that really the female wounding has
4:19up I said look what happens we've talked
4:22about this obviously quite a few times
4:23before and what I'm really fascinated
4:26about is that your your background seems
4:30to kind of mirror a lot of the dynamics
4:32that we're seeing now that it kind of
4:34goes back to the 70s the first kind of
4:37move the first kind of eruption of the
4:40women's movement I'll let you kind of
4:42tell the story but it's a really
4:43interesting kind of life story in
4:45experience I come from a different
4:48generation I was living in Berkeley and
4:50Berkeley was also simultaneously going
4:55through the very first first appearance
5:00of a really strong women's movement was
5:02probably the place where it was coming
5:04forth the strongest and that was really
5:07challenging you know also like because I
5:10never thought about objectifying women
5:12or any of the things that was just how
5:15it was you know and then suddenly there
5:17was like thousands of women in Berkeley
5:21who were coming together in getting very
5:24angry and I was just lost with the whole
5:28thing but fortunately there was also the
5:34kind of cutting edge of new therapies
5:36and in her work that was happening and
5:40out of desperation and necessity I found
5:45myself in my very first group which
5:48happened to be a men's group immense
5:50encounter bioenergetic group and what's
5:54in about 20 minutes because it tossed me
5:57into the middle of the room and started
5:59provoking me because I had no access to
6:03my anger and that was what was driving
6:06me crazy and I got him both with living
6:09together with a group of men who
6:11identified themselves we identified
6:13ourselves as feminists it was we were so
6:17we and we created a min Center and we
6:19had a men's radio talk show to talk
6:22about men's issues
6:23but and there were all in response to
6:25the challenges that were coming from the
6:28feminists and basically literally we
6:31were caught with our pants down feeling
6:34very guilty and apologetic and castrated
6:40like we're wrong and I remember one day
6:45in in a meeting just not connecting with
6:50the words everybody was saying and
6:52having this kind of almost like
6:54out-of-body experience in a way where I
6:57felt like I could just see all of us men
7:00and I had this vision that we were all
7:02sitting there sawing off our balls and I
7:08was like shocked by it and I was like
7:11and I realized in that moment that it
7:15wasn't going to it wasn't going to free
7:17me you know and I about after seeing it
7:21no woman pardon nor the women that it
7:24wasn't an answer and I didn't feel all
7:27of a sudden I felt separate from that
7:28group that I felt very connected to and
7:32about 15 minutes later I stood up and
7:37resigned from the group and I just said
7:39there's something going on here and I
7:41didn't name it as castration I didn't
7:44understand that really even at that time
7:46I didn't name it as guilt but I saw it
7:49as guilt and I saw it being turned
7:51everybody was turning against themselves
7:53were so wrong we're so bad and I got up
7:58and I walked out and I went out to
8:00dinner with my mother and I can't became
8:04so interested in this subject or the
8:07healing of Matt of the masculine and the
8:10healing of the feminine that I became a
8:12therapist and it became one of the main
8:14subjects that I specialized in and I
8:17still lead workshops and trainings with
8:20that and it's so so it's the works I
8:23have a big passion for and even so after
8:27all those years
8:29your words were like something I hadn't
8:33before or even allowed myself to
8:36actually conceive of so it was also a
8:39kind of waking up moment for me and and
8:43then was me too coming out and feeling
8:47that anger coming out and having my own
8:49history of realizing how my empowerment
8:52came by really getting in touch with my
8:55anger and letting it come out there was
8:57a big Bravo yes you know about it and at
9:05the same time I think that we need to
9:10come out of the blame culture you know
9:13and we need to come into the responsible
9:16culture and just a little bit of time
9:18that we spent together in the way that
9:20we've been talking and everything just
9:22feels like yes this is the real
9:25conversation between men and women
9:27hasn't happened yet and I hope that as
9:32part of our learning where we're
9:35learning from each other as we talk and
9:37that we're still in that and I don't
9:39want to posture myself as somebody who
9:42has all the answers I don't it's still
9:45it's still a process of Revelation and
9:48learning it's so interesting I just need
9:50to catch that need to stop the blaming
9:55and when I was listening to your story I
9:58immediately thought yes and also the
10:00safe blaming we need to stop the blaming
10:02over there and also the safe self
10:04blaming and in your story you shared how
10:08what you've been experiencing in this
10:11man groups group back then was not so
10:14much okay did we take responsibility for
10:16our shadow it was self blaming and going
10:18into guilt and that's what we women can
10:23do very well as well and I know that
10:27some women out there who have seen the
10:30film are afraid that that's what we were
10:32doing another round of self blaming okay
10:34now it's not blaming now itself blaming
10:36and it's not we don't have a Hydra of
10:39saying sorry for what happened out of a
10:43place of greatness we always learn how
10:46to apologize
10:47from a place of smallness and small
10:49people won't save the earth they won't
10:51be happy they won't contribute to
10:54anything I have to have this incredible
10:56courage of loving myself with all those
10:59shadows yeah and it's when we stop out
11:02of this thing of guilt and fault and go
11:06into just taking responsibility that I
11:08start to be curious about the
11:10conversation yeah it's interesting
11:12there's a there's a big phrase that
11:16became quite popular in the 60s through
11:18the through the women's movement was the
11:20personal is political and what's really
11:23interesting is your film is very
11:24personal very very personal but it's
11:28also putting a finger on one of the kind
11:31of the real source points on the culture
11:34especially coming so soon after me to
11:37the site have kind of so many women
11:39owning their stuff even I I have to
11:43admit when I watched the film when I
11:45watched the poem first time you
11:46delivered it I was immensely touched by
11:48it and I have felt touched by it when
11:50I've watched it but I've also watched it
11:52and felt wow this is so countercultural
11:56for want of a better word it's so
11:58opposite to the narrative that that
12:00we're in as a culture right now that
12:03I've that I've also felt wow it's
12:05unbalanced and I do feel that it's
12:07unbalanced in some way because it has to
12:08be matched by a similar ownership from
12:11the other side certain parts of the
12:13media I would say at the moment of very
12:15have a very ideological perspective a
12:18very sort of feminist ideological
12:19perspective and online there is a kind
12:23of growing anti feminist movement I know
12:26sort of you saw with some of the
12:28comments on YouTube especially and there
12:30is a growing kind of they call the
12:32manosphere online and there's a sense of
12:36any any sign of men kind of owning their
12:40stuff is seen as apologetic it's seen as
12:42and it can be kind of if it's done from
12:45a place of guilt it can be this sort of
12:47self castration it can be this kind of
12:49self negation and I think what's
12:51interesting is can you have ownership of
12:54how we are contributing to the division
12:56between men and women without slipping
12:58into self-hatred without so
13:00into castration without slipping into
13:03apologetic I think that's something that
13:07I find yet that that rebalances the the
13:11film kind of the ownership of a vast off
13:15as men I think it is very possible I
13:18think rather than you know going
13:22together can be these self revelation
13:24and revelation we expands you and makes
13:26you happy and and as you pointed out
13:29anything it is empowering you know it's
13:32like my shadow will play out negatively
13:36as long as I try to keep it in the
13:38closet and it will distort my life it
13:41will bring unhappiness to me and it will
13:42bring unhappiness to the people around
13:44me and it will perpetuate the need then
13:48to blame other people for the
13:50consequences of the ways that they
13:52played out so to me it's very obvious
13:54truth it's still a difficult one because
13:57the shadow is in the shadow it means
14:00it's hidden it means it's not the parent
14:02it's not totally obvious you know and I
14:04don't know if when it ends you know and
14:07when the win the self-discovery process
14:10ends but you know it's it's been with me
14:14for quite a while that understanding
14:17that I need to own my things and I
14:20certainly lived out a with women things
14:27which I feel shamed for and I feel
14:30apology for but I have an understanding
14:33about right now and I'm compassionate
14:35towards myself I didn't get taught I
14:37didn't learn how to be with women I
14:39didn't learn how to be what what how to
14:42deal with this strong sexuality that I
14:45had I didn't and I grew out of a culture
14:48that did objectify women and I came into
14:52certain positions of power where it was
14:55very well I was desirable man and I
14:59could have the women that I wanted and
15:02there were times when you know I abused
15:05that I lied i minimized you know I
15:10didn't
15:11on one hand I've been like this kind of
15:13responsible kind of growth aware guy and
15:17everything but to do it so I can cover
15:19myself look kind of like politically
15:21spiritually correct but I can still tell
15:25a story in a certain way that indicates
15:27more availability then I actually had
15:31and I see myself do that a lot of times
15:34because I wanted to go to bed with
15:36somebody and and and so but I said all
15:39the right things you know but it didn't
15:42you know and there was still a taking
15:45advantage of in some way and it and it
15:48hurt people and I said you know I that
15:50and I tried and it's it's almost like my
15:55brain is conditioned in a certain way to
15:58try to get what I want and to tell the
16:00story that I think will work the best to
16:03get what I want and sometimes it comes
16:06out of my mouth in a way that's not
16:08really totally straight and you know so
16:12that that lying to women within and in
16:19some relationship to sex having sex
16:22telling what happened to a partner when
16:26I come back the the changing of that has
16:29been part of my character for a long
16:31time it's something I just have to
16:33continue to own and every time I do is
16:37such a relaxation because the lie
16:39doesn't really create contact the real
16:42contact that I want there's always a
16:44sensing somewhere that something's a
16:45little bit off and want to just come
16:48clean with it you know you know what I
16:51have to tell you something I was lying
16:53this is the truth this is what I did or
16:56this is what I thought this was my
16:58intention
16:59everybody relaxes in the truth and
17:03everybody stays a little suspicious and
17:05pulled back in the lie and you know I
17:10like this thing can be able to look
17:12straight into the camera over there and
17:15say I have finished with this
17:18and I can't that would be a lie I don't
17:21know I don't know that I am you know I
17:24might have my lust mite over
17:26well me at some moment and I might use
17:29very sophisticated seduction skills that
17:32I have to you know lure somebody in for
17:36my gratification knowing full well that
17:39I don't I'm not going to be with that
17:41person and what I love so much besides
17:44many aspects of your story is it takes
17:47so much time so many centuries so men
17:50who want to learn how to clear their
17:52stuff really clear it and I think they
17:55have this ambition of I want to be
17:56really a cleaned up guy and that's so
17:58great okay then you deserve a few
18:01centuries of studying it every day of
18:04your life and you know what it's not the
18:06women who are worth it who are going to
18:09sleep with you are worth it you're doing
18:12it for yourself yeah and I think this is
18:14a very big key that especially men in
18:17our fast food culture don't learn they
18:19deserve time for learning because this
18:21is deep stuff it's not something that I
18:24can buy it's not something that anybody
18:25learned to perform in and it's not their
18:28guilt that I have to unravel the stuff
18:31and I think then and this is when you
18:35say it like a few minutes before I want
18:39to apologize and it reached me what me
18:42reached is something so touching because
18:44I experienced it so so little from men
18:48in our days they say sorry and they
18:52don't need me they don't need my
18:54reaction they are with themselves they
18:56are with their balls there were some
18:58boundaries they are not something that I
19:01can fall into with you as sorry so I can
19:03get what I want
19:04it touches me so deeply and this is not
19:07because you learned it yesterday but
19:09because you started studying at 40 years
19:11ago and I just want to say thank you for
19:13that because what I experienced in my
19:16nervous system and I would add to
19:18personal is political personal is
19:21collective what I experienced is
19:23something that really matters to me and
19:26I think this is something that I might
19:29say to many women in the collective
19:31thank you something more that I could
19:33feel I could feel the relaxation in my
19:36nervous system when you were just saying
19:38that's the truth and in allowing
19:42yourself to say I cannot say into the
19:47camera that is all heal now I'm clean
19:49now I'm continuously doing this work and
19:52owning and trying to be as honest as I
19:55can
19:56gives me the allowance to be allowed to
20:00learn to and I want to learn to be more
20:08and more and more clear with my truth
20:12and my boundaries instead of going into
20:14the seduction and manipulation games we
20:16have learned and I cannot promise that I
20:20will do in every moment and I will not
20:22step back into it in moments and thus I
20:25do understand a Stan man's mistrust I do
20:29understand that it's not easy to trust
20:31as women I do understand and I even
20:34can't say me honestly me you can trust
20:38always I can't I can't
20:42sometimes I can't even trust myself and
20:44I think it's really important that we
20:45acknowledge that it's part of a learning
20:50curve and you can't see further ahead of
20:52the learning curve than where you are
20:54right now but that you recognize the
20:56history of it and who knows what the
21:01next challenges are going to be one
21:02thing I definitely realize is that in
21:05the moment where we just decide and
21:09commit both to wanting to learn owning
21:16that we make mistakes that we fall back
21:17and that we are curious about finding
21:22out what it is what what is acting out
21:24what are we doing when I feel that both
21:26sides are curious about it then I I
21:29start to become really alive and really
21:32interested and really interested in the
21:34relation and really interested in the
21:35dialogue in the conversation it's
21:38interesting comparing two to you like
21:42we're from different generations yeah
21:43and I was raised by a very feminist
21:47family by a feminist mother a FEMINIST
21:50father and my I think the way that that
21:54that I've behaved in relationships has
21:58been much more holding myself back and
22:02the lying has been a kind of lie of
22:04omission all the time it's been not
22:08fully showing up not fully telling the
22:10truth not kind of taking on this kind of
22:12feeling of I'm completely responsible
22:14for the way that my partner feels so not
22:19being honest about the way I was feeling
22:21and stringing stringing women along of
22:24kind of internalizing this this feeling
22:26of I'm completely responsible for
22:28everything that they feel and then not
22:32really being honest and being in
22:33relationships for longer than I should
22:35be and not being honest about what I'm
22:36feeling so when I look at the me to
22:38movement and that it's a lot of kind of
22:40men the moments like men acting out and
22:43being sexually predatory I didn't
22:47experience that I don't think that was
22:49my stuff and I don't think that's a lot
22:51of guys from from my generation stuff
22:54and a lot of them were actually brought
22:55up in a different environment and a lot
22:57of it was feeling a sense of shame
22:59around themselves as men and not fully
23:01showing up for that reason at least that
23:03is something that I have started to
23:05experience and in my work with my
23:09client's etc etc that as I said in the
23:15beginning in the moment where I started
23:17to be interested in my shadow and when I
23:19started to feel more empowered and more
23:25loving towards myself I started to feel
23:27really compassion for the role I could
23:29see wow it has to be difficult to grow
23:34up as a boy and to become a man nowadays
23:37because the narrative of men are
23:43perpetrators men are violators men are
23:47abusers is so huge and out of good
23:50reasons of course it's the this does not
23:52come out of nothing but no man is born
23:56as a abuser and other aggressor and has
24:00a problem it oh it's a biological
24:03problem so yes and you get born and
24:06you'd grow up with these images of
24:09manhood and I think this is something
24:11that raffia talks about really well that
24:12if as a man you grow up feeling that you
24:16then suppress a lot of the kind of the
24:18natural aggression or the natural kind
24:20of feelings you you don't you you very
24:23much don't want to be like those other
24:25guys and actually that leads to a sort
24:27of shadow of perverted aggression so
24:34when we hear the word aggression and
24:35male aggression we think about men
24:38taking their gun or taking the penis and
24:40raping woman and I think these are
24:41perverted expressions of an aggression
24:45that the men had to suppress before it
24:48got into this form so even though our
24:50language is very it's it's very subtle
24:53what what we are looking for in the
24:54first place is an instinctual anger of
24:57protecting boundaries and that's for the
24:59sake of peace and for the sake of war
25:02between the sexes so yeah and that's so
25:04interesting the way you say that because
25:06what I work with a lot of times with men
25:08is that they they have rejected a side
25:11of their own masculinity like the roots
25:14of their investment because they want to
25:16be like anything but like all those guys
25:19who they see as responsible for the
25:22problems and so they and and they think
25:26that that's a level of aggression and
25:28violence and sexual abuse and so they
25:31repress that side and of course then it
25:34gets acted out it comes out and all
25:37kinds of things and a lot of times what
25:40I'm doing in groups with men is getting
25:42men to go in and really feel that layer
25:46of the masculine whether is the level of
25:48aggression and frustration and anger and
25:52hatred and encourage them to just allow
25:55it to come out and rather than that
25:58overwhelm
25:59their personality like they're afraid
26:02and then becoming that way they find
26:05that it's actually not that much it's
26:07like it's a lair but as long as you deny
26:09that lair
26:10you know you you lose your roots and you
26:13lose your instinctive connection to
26:16masculinity and into the truth that you
26:19could express in your sexuality you know
26:23and so that's a big part of flick the
26:25men's work I do is to get men to go into
26:27that culture creates the specific male
26:30shadow of aggression and it's like every
26:33shadow of the thing is this and it's
26:35healthy and it's good but a shadow is a
26:38monster and then you say you want me
26:40touching this monster no way you say
26:44honey trust me I'm doing this for 40
26:46years it's worth it every time I do it
26:48and then you say hey come on I see I
26:50think every also with female rage I
26:53think this is not that big difference
26:55whenever I go really infrared and really
26:58enter and guide stay with my body I find
27:01myself to be the most peaceful being on
27:04earth the last thing that I plant I just
27:07plan to somehow survive this wave of
27:10rage and then wow I'm okay you okay it's
27:15quite a shock how positive it is to
27:18discharge suppressed aggression because
27:20this because this thing about the
27:22repressed or the repressed aggression
27:25which then as any any shadow does then
27:27plays out I think is actually the
27:29unspoken dynamic behind a lot of the me
27:32to stuff that we've seen because a lot
27:34it's come out that a lot of the people
27:36who were accused of acting out in ways
27:41during me to identify themselves as male
27:43feminists they identified themselves as
27:45not those kind of guys and if you
27:48identify yourself as I'm not that kind
27:50of guy then you're suppressing this
27:52thing and it comes out sideways
27:54and I think this is this is part of on a
27:57cultural level I think unless we realize
28:00this that actually we need to encourage
28:01men to embrace their masculinity to live
28:04that out to be in in a full way then
28:07they are discharging it they're not
28:09pushing it down into the cellar and then
28:11it comes out
28:11sideways and I think as a culture where
28:13we're actually probably going to
28:15encourage more of that kind of stuff
28:16because we're teaching men to be ashamed
28:18of their sexuality we're teaching men to
28:20be ashamed of their masculine aggression
28:23I think that's actually going to have
28:26the the the reverse effect to the one
28:28that we think and I want to add that
28:30when a group of men go through that and
28:34it's something I would try and bring in
28:36rather early in a men's group they come
28:39into a relaxation and like you said
28:41peacefulness and and this thing of male
28:45bonding becomes very real a support for
28:48each other and a love and a kindness
28:50and and and the almost the cessation of
28:55a certain kind of competition that is
28:58there when somebody feels castrated or
29:01when somebody is not empowered and
29:03they're always having to prove
29:04themselves and they come in as brothers
29:06and support and it's one of the most
29:08beautiful things that happens in men's
29:10group it isn't that they arrive okay
29:13this is home and I'm a I'm a beast I'm a
29:16rapist I'm a killer I'm I think it's
29:19quite the opposite they go oh god I feel
29:22so good and I love being a man and this
29:25and they can feel their legs and they
29:26can feel their balls and they can feel
29:28that kind of connection and it's a kind
29:31of simple healing in fact of all of a
29:35tremendous amount of what's been
29:38absorbed from the culture which is
29:41making masculinity so toxic and and I
29:46want to say that it that it's also right
29:49to really challenge the masculinity in
29:52the way that it acts out with the way
29:53that acts out when this when a man is
29:56castrated and when he hasn't owned as
29:58part of himself he really is a bit of a
30:01monster and I think the big
30:03misunderstanding collectively is that we
30:08mistake this expression of distorted
30:11castrated masculinity as masculinity so
30:15many when I listen to many feminist
30:18women not all of them of course many it
30:22sounds as if
30:23that was the essence of masculinity and
30:27thus we have to fight it and this is a
30:30huge misunderstanding because this is
30:31not natural masculinity these is already
30:35coming out of this castration of losing
30:40access to natural masculinity and also
30:43same as for for as women to you to to
30:46natural power I think both femininity I
30:50was so turned off of being a woman when
30:52I thought what the sky tree offers me as
30:54typical feminine it's it's the loser cut
30:57who who should want to have tits nobody
31:01on earth it's just being being the
31:03secondary class of human beings and so
31:06when I started to question is this right
31:09or am i right and have every right on
31:12earth to unravel my kind of femininity I
31:15became curious and I think this is so
31:16important for men truth they want to
31:18gain back their masculine essence and so
31:21they have to be curious about what comes
31:24up in themselves when they allow to set
31:27boundaries to this conditioning or the
31:30cultural imprint what masculinity means
31:32so it's almost like we need true words
31:34we need are we talking about this
31:36masculinity or the true masculinity of
31:39boy psychology and man psychology a lot
31:41of people divide it into that so a lot
31:43of what people are protesting against or
31:46attacking is boy psychology rather than
31:49man psychology it's not fully and in
31:53both cases I think like a real rite of
31:57passage at the time of life when were
32:00coming into puberty were you're welcomed
32:02into the feminine and into womanhood and
32:06you're the secrets and mysteries of it
32:09are revealed to you by elder women and
32:11the same for men my life would have been
32:14different God if I had if I had gotten
32:18the teaching in that way of what it what
32:21does it mean and I felt included and I
32:23felt the support I felt like a group of
32:26men or just even my father you know had
32:30my back come were there for me you know
32:32it would have changed everything you
32:35know I just I was so I really the amount
32:38of suffering and and pain and loss and
32:44being alone with it and just completely
32:47confused I would like to come back to
32:49what you have been sharing because I
32:51think it's really interesting you have
32:52been sharing that your personal
32:54experience is quite different in a
32:56different generation it has not been as
32:59much conditioning let's say of women are
33:04objects has more been you have to care
33:07for women from women's emotion for you
33:10are responsible or let's say guilty when
33:12a woman feels bad this kind of stuff and
33:15I imagine that this brings along a lot
33:20of holding back of own needs wishes
33:24whatever truthful and that this can
33:27bring a lot of rage to I'm curious I'm
33:30curious to hear about you is there right
33:35about that understand what what is your
33:36experience with that
33:37well yeah I don't know how much of that
33:41is particular to my upbringing because
33:43my mother was often depressed and I
33:47think a lot of children take on if they
33:50have a depressed parent that it's their
33:51fault so a lot of that could be tied in
33:53with it as well but I also know from the
33:58inner work that I've done and I know
33:59you've done a lot of inner work as well
34:01if you dig down
34:02it's almost universal that you have some
34:05kind of anger towards your parents you
34:07were in this kind of very you you you
34:09pretty much you all of your emotions you
34:11you kind of put onto your parents they
34:13were the world and they never they were
34:15they were there they weren't there and
34:16when they weren't there we all have this
34:17kind of infantile rage I think we all
34:19have on some level inside us and I think
34:22getting that out in some way is kind of
34:24an essential
34:25part of of getting more healthy as a as
34:27an adult but also going into that kind
34:31of inner work what I found really
34:34interesting was how much more difficult
34:36it is to identify the mother stuff than
34:38it is to identify the father stuff I
34:40often and I've seen it with other people
34:43in these kind of processes as well it's
34:44it's it's quite easy sometimes to see
34:46what my father did this my father did
34:48that he was there he wasn't there he was
34:50an alcoholic it was whatever and you can
34:53kind of quite easily identify and it
34:55seems much more easy to process whereas
34:58the mother stuff I found far more
35:00difficult to see I'm far more difficult
35:03to clear because a lot of the time it
35:05comes with these sort of feelings of
35:07what it would be so wrong to feel angry
35:10towards your mother it would be so bad
35:12to feel that towards your mother and
35:13I've I've seen yeah I certainly for
35:18myself I found it much more difficult to
35:19see you identify it and then to kind of
35:21work with it than with the father stuff
35:24you just touched something though that I
35:26think for myself personally and I see it
35:29with other men ties the story of the
35:32mother and lack of power and the men
35:36together and that has been this feeling
35:44that you're become very very sensitive
35:47to your mother's feelings and the
35:50changes of mood and whatever is
35:53happening in the house and it creates a
35:57kind of pleaser mentality in a way
36:00that's trying to damage control women
36:03and I've noticed in my relationships I
36:06carry that sensitivity it's like my
36:09mother was mostly really quite a bright
36:11and happy person but when she would go
36:13you'd feel the air change you know and
36:17there's something going on and then I I
36:20see myself getting activated in a way
36:23that I become a pleaser
36:24it's then what can I do in order and bit
36:28underneath it I'm trying to change her
36:30I'm trying to damage control the the
36:34emotional woman you know and and what it
36:37brings
36:38and I know it from my own experience and
36:40I see it mother thinks it brings out the
36:42contempt of the woman because the women
36:44hate because I become regressing to a
36:46boy in that moment I'm afraid basically
36:51of the feminine feelings and that may be
36:54some kind of negativity is gonna come up
36:56and so I start trying to find out what's
36:58wrong or make things right or please
37:01or go to my mind and try and talk to her
37:05talk some sense into her and damage
37:08control the whole thing but it's all
37:10motivated for by my discomfort of that
37:15situation and it's a it's a real
37:18challenge for me even today if I feel
37:21that my woman is going through something
37:24and to let her be you know and and not
37:28come in with oak and I you know start
37:31doing nice things for her or or trying
37:35to talk her out of her feelings yeah how
37:39can I fix it trying to fix a woman you
37:41know and and it and it's a sure thing to
37:44bring out the woman sword that wants to
37:47you know whack my balls off you know
37:50because they I think because I don't
37:52think a woman wants a boy and so to
37:55really investigate that whole part you
37:58know of the fear of women's emotions and
38:04the fear and and risk a woman's
38:10rejection and anger is a big step in
38:14growing up to being a man and I and it's
38:18it's a scary one to risk the woman's
38:21anger you know and rejection and if but
38:27if we don't we become pleasers and we're
38:30not really present then as the men and
38:32we're not really there and then and then
38:36totally totally and it's the register
38:39ends the right yeah you can manipulate
38:41it and you can castrate and reject
38:45usually we do both usually we do both
38:49usually we do both first women
38:52manipulated and then wicked yeah and so
38:55for me it's a real and that that's part
38:57of the complexity of the relationship of
38:59the mother because the mother was
39:01holding the basic energy of the house
39:04and of course I want to be in the loving
39:07happy merged relaxed space and when all
39:12of a sudden the vibe in the house starts
39:15to get tense and the chill comes in and
39:18then I know something bad is going to
39:20happen I know fights gonna erupt between
39:23my mother and my father maybe my
39:25father's late coming home from work
39:27which means he stopped off to have a
39:28drink which means my mom is really
39:31activated and it's gonna be a fight then
39:34I'm on alert my whole nervous system is
39:37is on alert then and I'm trying to
39:39damage control it and I've lost myself
39:42you know and it was a very real fear as
39:46a kid but I've somehow to confront that
39:48place as a man and see it and then say
39:52what I really feel you know instead of
39:55trying to manipulate because that's
39:57where the manipulation goes in and just
39:59come out and ask really straight hey
40:01what's going on right now you know and
40:04be there and be present and grounded in
40:07in in the mask on and recognize that
40:10something's happening and not be in
40:13trying to fix it or be in judgment of it
40:16but be actually really curious does that
40:19work Kirsten I'm really curious what's
40:21going on right now and it's so
40:23interesting for me it's so interesting
40:25to hear and to realize how this having
40:29learned that somehow manipulate the
40:32situation and the other person is the
40:34only way to damage control or to is
40:38mutual is because we as girls have
40:42learned that from our mother to maybe
40:45slightly different reasons I can
40:48for myself and I know this is true for
40:50many women I know that we have not
40:52learned from our mothers that a girl and
40:56a woman can have clear boundaries and
40:59say what she thinks and what she means
41:01and say no and stand up for what is
41:02right for me I have not learned that I
41:05had no role model for that it's always
41:07now trying to make it right for everyone
41:10else
41:10and in order to get it at least a little
41:13bit right for yourself to manipulate and
41:15it's always trying to find safety by
41:20going through the outer world and that's
41:22always the wrong first step I have to be
41:25safe with myself and I think this is
41:27also an insight where it's like it's
41:29really 10 deaths at the same time it's
41:31like somebody asks me what do you feel
41:33and I try to train it what does you want
41:35to hear how sick is that
41:37but how normal how collective how deeply
41:41am I not in touch with myself so I'm not
41:44out of touch with myself when my women
41:46gets a woman gets grumpy I've heard of
41:48touch with my life like all the time
41:50so this is something of where we really
41:53I think get humble and wise around how
41:56deeps wounding is and how big the gifts
41:59that we can get on this way because what
42:03I notice is that if I don't lose my
42:05ground and I don't go into the pleasing
42:08boy and I don't go into the damage
42:10controlling thing and I stay grounded in
42:12myself and I ask for granted plus hey
42:15what's going on I find women generally
42:19will go the sense that safety from the
42:23grounded Mexican and they'll go in their
42:25share very honestly and they'll tell me
42:29yeah no and it's really because in and
42:32it's the easy conversation and then
42:33rather than have a long complicated kind
42:36of thing that swims in the
42:39maresi swampy territory for a few days
42:43it's over in a couple minutes and again
42:46I feel in the kind of you asking what's
42:49going on that I won't be able to get you
42:51with my manipulation so I can stop my
42:54drama queen behavior right at this
42:55moment and to be honest it's a relief
42:57but I don't get this exit normally
43:00because you always
43:02going on like honey can I be a better
43:04person and then you stop crying
43:05and so it's so interesting around men
43:08with healthy boundaries it's it's a high
43:10way to connect a feeling it's the it's
43:12the paradoxes that by saying it's only
43:16when you're prepared to say something
43:17that might make someone dislike you or
43:19make a woman dislike you you make a
43:21woman reject you that you actually
43:23become safe enough to trust and it's
43:26it's as you've said it it's the growing
43:28up from a boy to a man being prepared to
43:30say something that might make a woman
43:32reject you and being grounded enough to
43:35be able to receive not happy reactions
43:39in the person yes yeah I think even
43:44retraction rejected of being the fear of
43:48being rejected from the woman is a fear
43:51of death because it's your mother
43:53rejecting you I think rejection itself
43:55isn't dangerous enough I think it's it's
43:58not something I'm not love but I'm
44:00threatened to death I think there's some
44:03sense it is an existential thing you
44:05really take it way way back yeah it
44:08manifests this is like rejection or so
44:12it's also that's maybe I'm the cause of
44:14it or and then you enter into a very
44:16complex relationship with a feminine in
44:19that whole thing whereas you as I said a
44:21minute ago and you confirm it it's
44:23actually very simple
44:24but also from an evolutionary level it's
44:26that women hold the key for men men's
44:29jeans to go into the next generation
44:31so being rejected by a woman is being
44:34rejected by its life by existence
44:37and on some level I think that's that's
44:39absolutely true I think that's the level
44:41of that's the level of existential
44:43terror that a lot of men have asking
44:45women out that in some sense they're
44:50standing in for the world they're
44:51standing in for nature they're standing
44:52in for existence itself so it's not just
44:55a male ego thing it's really an urgent
44:59instinctual threat of yes or no life or
45:02death I want to this something else that
45:06struck me recently as always thinking
45:09about your film Hannah is that and you
45:11also saw this with some of the reactions
45:13to it
45:13was quite a few especially on YouTube
45:16there were some reactions from guys who
45:18I'd say to the mug town men going their
45:21own way or men's rights activists saying
45:24too late ladies you you won't trick us
45:28again all of this really sort of toxic
45:32pretty misogynistic comments and there
45:36are online there are quite a lot of
45:38places that where talk about women
45:43degenerates into this very sort of toxic
45:45or very misogynistic very very
45:47suspicious very misogynistic place and
45:51what I found really interesting when I
45:53was thinking about your film is that
45:55because there is very little discussion
45:58of the female shadow in culture the only
46:01place that I think a lot of guys who've
46:04maybe been hurting relationships
46:05find it is on these websites so suddenly
46:08the only place that you ever hear anyone
46:10talking about while women are women can
46:13be manipulative women can be bitch's
46:15women can be like and behave badly if
46:17the only place that people find it is on
46:19these websites then what I think will
46:22happen is that people will then get more
46:24and more radicalized because on this
46:26websites it's not that women can behave
46:28like this it's women always behave like
46:29this women always will ditch you for a
46:32more more attractive man they will you
46:35can't trust what they say there's all of
46:37these kind of really yeah and it feels
46:42like you expressing both of you
46:45expressing the the fact of the female
46:48shadow and bringing that somehow more
46:50into the conversation is really
46:53essential to because otherwise the only
46:56place that you can find it is where the
46:58conversation goes toxic and making that
47:01conversation much more mainstream I
47:04think is essential really essential to
47:06to try and because otherwise it's it's
47:09really unbalanced yes and I was really
47:12surprised - honestly I discovered these
47:15men's rights movement and men going
47:16their own way thanks to the film and the
47:20reactions to the film I didn't know
47:21anything about it I had learned a lot
47:24about men's moon
47:25I had started to see how difficult it is
47:28also to grow up as a man in this society
47:30and in this world but I didn't know that
47:34there could be and of course I knew
47:36about devaluation of women by men but
47:41that there can be so much hurt and hate
47:44against women as you find it on these
47:47websites I didn't even know I was not
47:50aware of and it's shocking some way it's
47:53really shocking but it's also touching
47:55because it it shows how deep the
47:57wounding is and something that stroked
48:02me is that I I start to see a parallel
48:06and a parallel between where feminism
48:13has partly gone where me too has partly
48:17gun means turned into something toxic
48:20turned instead of standing up for our
48:24rights and our boundaries starting to
48:26fight all men collectively sitting in we
48:29are the victims we are the poor ones and
48:31you are all all the bad ones
48:34and it struck me to see that these men
48:39who write in that way in these internet
48:43pages etc are doing exactly the same
48:45they saying we men are the victims and
48:47all women are evil and now we have to
48:49fight the women instead of standing up
48:51and saying stop here I have a clear
48:54boundary because not all men are evil
48:56and we have our wounds we have
48:58experience we have had a lot of bad
49:00experiences that is great but but this
49:05going into a victim's hole and pointing
49:08the finger finger and fighting
49:09collectively the other sex I can see it
49:13on both sides and it's not going
49:14anywhere it's as Patrick's would work it
49:17would have worked already yes that's
49:19really like flipping it around it just
49:21changes the color of the same problem we
49:24won't get anywhere with the same metrics
49:26with the same thinking and yet and so
49:29but it's also true for both sides that I
49:32see the pain where it comes from I see
49:35I've seen it for a woman first to be
49:37honest
49:38but I see it there now too and I see
49:41many things they have gone through and
49:43I'm happy what you have pointed out that
49:45yes that this film might be one
49:49contribution I hope it's just the
49:51beginning of a new conversation a
49:54beginning of a contribution to offering
49:58space for having these conversations in
50:03the more mature way and in a more
50:06constructive way and I am actually
50:09touched by quite some feedbacks I get
50:12from man who have experienced very badly
50:17but have very bad experiences many wrote
50:21about their experience in divorce not
50:23being allowed to see their kids having
50:25been well even also I received letters
50:30of man saying I have been not not even
50:32only emotionally but also physically
50:34abused in my marriage I have stayed
50:37because I have two wonderful kids I have
50:39a lot of heavy experiences and I guess
50:43that a man going into these movements
50:46men going their own way many of them
50:48have these experiences and have never
50:50found a place to express their hurt and
50:52I'm I'm really touched and happy that
50:56thanks to this film man show up and
50:59write about this experiences without
51:01hatred but with hope they wrote thank
51:04you so much
51:04I hope again that woman maybe can even
51:08love me as a man I had I read this Miami
51:11it's touching
51:12it's wow and I guess my hope for this
51:16film and the subsequent work and the
51:19work that's happening anna frebel wisdom
51:21is that it will encourage healing and
51:24offer possibilities other than blame and
51:28victimhood and without judgment towards
51:32the people who've taken these very
51:35strong positions because we don't know
51:38what happened to them you know there
51:41they form their personalities the way
51:43that they did and they came to these
51:45beliefs out of real experiences and so
51:50there has to be a certain level of
51:51compassion but just to even get the
51:53possibility that is possible to have
51:56open honest conversations where people
51:59on their shadow side I know from my work
52:03with people is really a route towards
52:06healing now how quickly that is taken up
52:09or how broadly that is embraced remains
52:12to be seen you know but I that's why I
52:16respect so much the work that you're
52:18doing right now and going around and
52:20talking to all these people who I think
52:22really do want the healing to happen it
52:26really you want I mean how much richer
52:29better life be if we really can open up
52:32and talk and share and being how much
52:34more joyful and I mean it's just so
52:38obvious I want to repeat what you have
52:40been saying in the beginning I would
52:42love to invite everyone to start to to
52:46do these steps and not for the others me
52:51as a woman I am not doing it for you I'm
52:54really doing it for myself and you
52:56should do it for yourself and not for us
52:59because it's so freeing it is stepping
53:03out of a victim's place it's the best
53:05thing I could ever have done for myself
53:09that's the truth and my truth is my
53:15heart once to love and if I stay in the
53:22victims place stay in the blaming place
53:24I don't allow my heart to love and I
53:27suffer from it maybe you do but in the
53:30first place me I suffer from it

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