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Meet the Secret Strategist Behind Alex Hormozi and GaryVee — Transcript

by Jay Clouse · 14,286 words · 1,994 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Like the top 1% of creators, what does
0:01their volume actually look like in your
0:03experience? Usually around 300 plus per
0:05week.
0:07No, I know it's insane. Meet Caleb
0:09Rston. Caleb is a strategist and brand
0:12builder for some of the biggest names in
0:14business. His breakthrough was back in
0:152018 when he grew Gary Bee's Tik Tok
0:18from 300K to 3.5 million followers in
0:21just 3 months. But he didn't stop there.
0:24In 2022, he joined Alex and Ila
0:27Hermoszy's team as content employee
0:29number one, where he grew their audience
0:31from 1.2 million to 11.5 million. Caleb
0:36just doesn't miss. And now that he's out
0:39on his own, he's here to help you. In
0:41this episode, you'll learn the content
0:43strategy he used for Gary and the
0:45Hermosis. I like to use the accordion
0:47method. If our volume is going up and
0:50we're getting less engagement, then
0:52we're not doing it correctly. How to use
0:55data to improve your content. Stop
0:57tracking everything. If it's not
0:58changing what you do, it's pointless to
1:00track. And where to start if you're
1:02feeling overwhelmed. I use uh a
1:04framework that I call the brand journey
1:05framework. And basically, it's four
1:07questions that you ask yourself. Thank
1:09you to one of 10 for sponsoring this
1:11video. When I go into my feeds and I see
1:13content come up from some of the biggest
1:15creators out there, some that you've
1:16worked with, some that you haven't, I
1:17think to myself, well, they are winning
1:20a volume game. And the math I do in my
1:22head is like they're probably posting a
1:24couple times per day. How often are
1:27people like the top 1% of creators, what
1:29does their volume actually look like in
1:31your experience? Usually around 300 plus
1:33per week.
1:35Break that down for me. And we're
1:36counting like Instagram story tiles and
1:38everything like that, right? You're
1:39putting out tweets, you're posting on
1:40Instagram stories, you're uploading
1:42shorts, right? You might be uploading
1:44two shorts a day or two reels a day to
1:48your Instagram. Okay? And then you have
1:50YouTube long form. You might be posting
1:54couple posts to LinkedIn. The way I
1:56think about it is you're trying to
1:58maximize the amount of output, but I
2:01think a lot of people misunderstand the
2:02intention behind this. So, like every
2:04team that I've worked with, volume is
2:06less about showing up everywhere and
2:09invading everybody's feed. That's a
2:10beautiful byproduct that occurs from
2:12volume. But I like to think of volume as
2:15data acquisition. So, what I mean by
2:18that is I think we all will resonate
2:20with what I'm about to say. Quality is
2:22subjective as [ __ ] I think we all sit
2:25around and selfanalyze our content and
2:28say this is high quality or this isn't
2:29high quality. We should or shouldn't put
2:31this out because of that. And the
2:32reality is is none of us know what
2:34quality is. Jay, you don't know what
2:36quality is. I don't know what quality
2:37is. None of the creators watching this
2:39know. The only people that actually know
2:41and determine what quality is is your
2:43audience. And so if you put out more
2:45volume, especially in the beginning, you
2:48get to learn quicker what your audience
2:51deems as quality. I I I use the
2:53accordion method. You take that volume
2:56and the learnings you got from that and
2:58you contract it. You take the effort you
3:00were putting, let's use an example of 14
3:02posts a week on Instagram. Once you have
3:04been posting for, call it two months,
3:07you're going to know what your audience
3:08is resonating with. Even if you're
3:09starting out at the beginning, you'll
3:10have videos that all get 199 views and
3:12then one got 413. Okay, cool. More of
3:16that. And so what you do is you find the
3:18top performing content and you take the
3:20same amount of effort you were putting
3:21into 14 and maybe you put that same
3:23effort into seven. But those seven posts
3:25are more in line with what your audience
3:28has said. Hey, we like this. We [ __ ]
3:29with this. We want more of this. How
3:32broad is your aperture to start though?
3:33Because what if I am really throwing
3:36spaghetti against the wall and I'm
3:37really traversing topics and one really
3:40goes off and that's not actually
3:41something that I want to spend a lot of
3:43time creating content around. Is that
3:44something you think about or not? I
3:46think that this is where you want to
3:47start your brand or if you've already
3:49started, you want to do this as soon as
3:51possible with more intentionality. So,
3:53you want to reverse engineer the end
3:55goal. I use uh a framework that I call
3:58the brand journey framework and
3:59basically it's four questions that you
4:01ask yourself. You start with the end in
4:03mind. Okay, I always like to reverse
4:05engineer from goal to today. What is the
4:07outcome that I want? Why am I doing
4:09this? Right? What what am I wanting to
4:10have happen? The next question is what
4:12would I have to be known for in order
4:14for that to happen? Okay, so now we're
4:17working closer to today. The third
4:19question is what would I have to do in
4:22order to be known for the thing in order
4:24for the outcome I desire to occur? And
4:26then the final question which takes us
4:27to right now which is in order to do
4:30those things what do I have to learn?
4:31What do I have to learn in order to do
4:33the things to then be known for the
4:34thing so that my outcome or desired
4:36outcome occurs? And I think what that
4:39helps you do is filter what kind of
4:42topics you're going to speak on because
4:45the the reality is is what you just
4:47described is the trap that 90% of
4:49creators fall into. They're just kind of
4:52talking about random [ __ ] throwing
4:53spaghetti at a wall. maybe the noodle
4:55they really don't care about sticks. And
4:57so then they just lean into that, but
4:59they build this brand and this
5:00expectation with the audience around
5:02something that they don't care about. So
5:04not only is it not leading towards the
5:06economic outcomes potentially that they
5:08want, but it's also building a brand
5:10around a topic they hate. And so they
5:12end up burning out very quickly because
5:14they were just doing something wi with
5:17no intention behind it. I love this what
5:19do I want to be known for question
5:21because I've observed something similar
5:23in that at some point the audience the
5:26people outside of you need to take
5:28control and drive continued awareness of
5:32you because they know you for something
5:35and that can happen accidentally that
5:37can happen intentionally when it happens
5:40accidentally and it's something that you
5:41don't want to do as a bad time but also
5:42sometimes you get known for something
5:44that you want to be known for and then I
5:45see a lot of creators just get bored and
5:46they're like this is starting to work.
5:48It's taken me 5 years to get here, but
5:50now I'm sick of this and I don't want to
5:51do it anymore. And that's like the
5:53moment it seems where they have the most
5:55opportunity to actually accelerate and
5:58build a real business on this. What's
6:00your perspective here is is it common
6:03that people who are intentional and
6:05become known for something that they
6:07also just get bored? Jay, I love your
6:09questions, man. You are such a
6:10thoughtful dude. I think that the
6:12industry and all the content gurus have
6:15[ __ ] it up for everybody. They say
6:17niche down, niche down, niche down. And
6:19the reality is is yes, that will allow
6:22you to grow much faster for sure.
6:24There's no debate there. And a lot of
6:26platforms prefer that. But I think what
6:29ends up happening is you create this
6:32trap again where you only talk about
6:35this one thing. Let's take it outside of
6:37content for a second. Like if you have a
6:39partner, you know, girlfriend, wife, if
6:42you talk about one thing all the time,
6:44they're going to [ __ ] hate you
6:45eventually. they're going to get tired
6:47of it and more than likely you're not
6:49going to like yourself either. And I
6:50think content is very similar. There is
6:52the realities that the platforms prefer
6:54you to be a little bit more narrow on
6:56your topics, but I think that as a
6:59brand, you don't have to be that way. I
7:01I like to Gary always shared this
7:04analogy and I think it's just
7:05incredible. If I show up here on this
7:07podcast, I'm going to present myself one
7:08way. If I go riding on my Harley with
7:11the boys tonight, I'm going to behave
7:13slightly differently. And then if I go
7:15get brunch tomorrow morning with my mom,
7:16okay, cool. Slightly different. I'm
7:18still Caleb in all of these different
7:20scenarios, but I'm going to emphasize
7:21different parts of myself and speak
7:23differently given the context of where I
7:25am. I think brands can show up on social
7:27in the exact same way. Every platform
7:29allows you to present a different side
7:31of yourself. For example, Instagram is
7:33one where people can be the most
7:34personal, right? With Instagram stories,
7:36I think that allows you to speak to
7:38different topics and different things.
7:40And so what I would encourage people to
7:42do is actually figure out several
7:44different topics that you speak to. Have
7:4680% of what your content is be about
7:48your core thing and use the other 20 to
7:51make yourself an interesting [ __ ]
7:53human, right? Whether we love him or
7:55hate him, Joe Rogan, I think, is a prime
7:58example of this where he speaks to so
8:00many different topics and so he gives
8:02his audience so many at bats to connect
8:04with him. Right? if you're into MMA, if
8:07you're into conspiracy theories, if
8:09you're into human optimization, pol like
8:11all comedy, all these different things.
8:13And I think that what you'll find is
8:15there are people that listen to him
8:17infrequently because they like one
8:19topic. And then there's people that like
8:21three or four of the topics he speaks
8:23to, and those are the super fans. They
8:25don't care about the topic as much as
8:27they care about Joe's perspective on the
8:28topic. And I think that is the kind of
8:31brand that people really truly want to
8:33build because that's one where the
8:35audience isn't just consuming your
8:37content because the algorithm is feeding
8:38it to them. It's that they actually seek
8:41it out. So when something changes on Tik
8:43Tok, Instagram, instead of you
8:44disappearing and them not giving a [ __ ]
8:46they're actually going to go seek you
8:48out because they care about your take on
8:50whatever. I think that is certainly the
8:53brand that people want to build. But if
8:56I'm listening to this and I'm getting
8:57started and I haven't really gotten any
8:59traction or even become known for any
9:02particular thing, how wide can I like
9:06how wide can the interest that I have be
9:09on these platforms? Is it really
9:11plausible to talk about three to five
9:15different things on different platforms
9:18and build association with any one
9:21particular topic? Well, all brand in my
9:23opinion is or branding is just a an
9:27intentional pairing of relevant things
9:31done consistently. That's why I like to
9:33have 80% of my content be around one
9:37core subject matter. And the other 20%
9:40isn't necessarily where you're a subject
9:42matter expert. It's just your interests.
9:44So like for me for example, 80% like I'm
9:46going to start this is crazy. I'm going
9:48to start making content this year. And
9:5080% of it is going to be around brand
9:51building and organic content strategies,
9:54right? Uh building teams, everything
9:55around that. But then the other 20% I'm
9:58going to talk about hardcore shows and
10:00my Harley and all that [ __ ] And I think
10:02it's not speaking about Harley's as like
10:05a subject matter expert. It's just
10:07showing me as a human. I think in the
10:10beginning I recommend people spend more
10:12time focusing on that core thing and
10:15less about their ancillary interests.
10:18And so you can establish credibility by
10:20doing that. And I also think that people
10:23misunderstand kind of what I mean as far
10:25as like you have to like make content
10:28about the Harley. No, I might film
10:30shorts of me talking about how to build
10:33a media team while I'm riding my Harley.
10:35And so it's like a com combining of
10:38interests rather than solely talking
10:41about it. You know, if you love cereal,
10:44for example, [ __ ] eat cereal while
10:46you're talking about your [ __ ] If you
10:47love drinking tea, like Gary, tea with
10:51Gary Vee. I like the pairing of things.
10:53I also think, as a side note, back to
10:55your earlier question, this is a way to
10:57avoid burnout. It makes content more
10:59interesting. Like you see all these
11:01[ __ ] out there on the golf
11:02course making content, but I actually
11:05think it's genius because they're
11:06pairing filming content, something that
11:08for a lot of people is like
11:09anxietyinducing, with something that
11:11they enjoy. With a generation of kids
11:14coming into adulthood, professional
11:17parts of their career and they've wanted
11:19to be YouTubers. I see them starting to
11:20create content, but they don't have uh
11:22the lived experience that somebody like
11:24a Gary Vee, a Herozi had when they
11:27started creating content. What do you
11:29say to somebody who knows they want to
11:31create content but they don't act they
11:32haven't actually like done anything yet?
11:36Uh how do I get started in the content
11:38world? What should I be doing? I think
11:40share your unique perspective on how you
11:42are going about learning the thing. You
11:45know you're not the master yet. So share
11:50the journey of how you're becoming the
11:52master. I truly believe that everyone
11:54goes about learning in a unique way. And
11:58you and I both know on your way up you
12:00make a lot of mistakes. What I would
12:02lean into is sharing those mistakes,
12:04helping other people avoid those. And
12:06when you learn something that does work,
12:08share that as well. And so it's less of
12:10a this is how and this is what I'm
12:13learning. This is what I am seeing right
12:16now and I will update you in 3 months to
12:19let you know if this was actually
12:20effective or if this was a waste of my
12:21time. So, it's less of a posturing like
12:24an expert and more sharing and being
12:26vulnerable like I'm not the expert, but
12:29I'm an expert learner and I am really
12:31trying my best and I want to take you on
12:32that journey. One of the tools you can
12:34use to become an expert learner is
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13:55this video. When I'm thinking back to
13:57this point you made about okay, people
14:00really at the top they're doing
14:02somewhere on the the level of 400 pieces
14:05of content per week. I think to myself,
14:07how would I talk about that many things?
14:10Talk to me about repetition and
14:12repeating yourself and ideas and what
14:15level of appetite I have to have for
14:17that to play the volume game. Another
14:20incredible question. You have to be very
14:22comfortable with saying the same [ __ ]
14:23over and over in different ways. This is
14:25why stories are so important because
14:28stories allow you to say or share the
14:31same concept in many different
14:33scenarios. So that's in my opinion the
14:36key. Like the other reality is you're
14:39making [ __ ] up, right? Like in order to
14:41say new [ __ ] you have to make new [ __ ]
14:42up. So again, something that Gary um and
14:45I'll reference him a lot cuz I learned
14:46so much from that man. Something that he
14:48used to say a lot is, I'm going to say
14:50the same [ __ ] over and over in slightly
14:52different ways because you never know
14:53when it's going to hit home for
14:55somebody. Okay? And so like you never
14:57know when the analogy, the scenario that
15:00you present this concept in is going to
15:02hammer home for one person. And if it
15:05hammers home for one person, then it's
15:08worth it. The way that you create
15:10diversity and newness is the scenarios
15:13and stories. And so like, you know,
15:16there's the whole document don't create
15:17thing. And I think a lot of people
15:19interpret that as just having a v
15:21videographer follow you around. But I
15:23actually think it's just documenting the
15:24stories that you are living. If you have
15:27clients that you're working with, for
15:29example, sharing their success stories
15:32and you know, for a lot of people, they
15:34have a community of individuals that
15:35they're helping and serving. Well,
15:37that's a community of success stories
15:39that you have right there. You're
15:40probably sharing four or five core
15:42principles, but the way that your
15:44audience or your members are putting
15:47those principles into action is totally
15:49different, right? especially if they're
15:51cross industry. So, I think it's it's
15:53leaning in heavily to story. What do you
15:56think about repackaging ideas versus
15:58literally republishing older content?
16:01Does that have a place in your content
16:02strategy? I think that less and less
16:05it's effective to do like reposting
16:07exactly the same. If we were having this
16:09conversation 2 years ago, I would tell
16:10you repost all your biggest hitters. If
16:13you're an artist going on tour, everyone
16:15wants to hear your greatest hits. But
16:17now we're at a point where I am seeing
16:19with a lot of different brands I work
16:21with that the platforms are actually
16:23penalizing an exact re-upload. And so
16:26what I would encourage people to do is
16:28either have your team re-edit it or yes
16:31refilm it. Really what I prefer to do is
16:34take top performers and figure out kind
16:36of like what you said repackaging them
16:38in a way that works correctly for
16:40another platform. An example is there
16:42was a client that we were working with.
16:44They had a quote that they put out on
16:46Twitter that went really viral. Then
16:48what we did is we were like, "Okay,
16:49cool. This is a signal that the audience
16:52really [ __ ] with this. What does the
16:54Instagram version of this look like?"
16:55Well, what we did is we printed the
16:57quote and took a photo of it in a
16:59aesthetically pleasing environment.
17:01Okay. And that was their top performing
17:04Instagram post in the last 2 years. So
17:06that murdered. So then what did we do?
17:07Well, we took that queue and we were
17:09like, we should make a short on this.
17:10Let's just see like if they like this in
17:12video form. So, we used this exact quote
17:14as the hook and then we had them expand
17:16on why they came up with the quote and
17:18what the scenario was and blah blah
17:20blah. And that [ __ ] murdered did
17:23really well. And so then we were like,
17:25well, there's a lot more thought behind
17:27this. We could probably make a long form
17:28video. So then we created a YouTube
17:30video off of it. Now, was it their top
17:32performing YouTube video? No. But it was
17:33definitely in their top 10. And so this
17:35is where I think you can learn from one
17:38platform that a concept or a thought is
17:42valid and your audience loves it, but
17:44then you have to make sure that back to
17:46what we were talking about earlier, you
17:48show up contextual to the environment
17:50you're in. Instagram is way different
17:53than LinkedIn and LinkedIn is certainly
17:55way different than Tik Tok and so you
17:57need to show up slightly differently in
17:59those different scenarios. But to your
18:01point, yes, if you have a winning topic
18:03or a winning format, you can absolutely
18:06repackage it contextual to other
18:08platforms. It sounds magical to like
18:10publish something, it collects data, and
18:12then you have a team on your behalf
18:14seeing that data, analyzing it,
18:16ideulating on how to use it on other
18:17platforms and kind of leading the charge
18:19on that front. Is that typical of the
18:22the 1% of folks or are there teams where
18:26the the main face the main voice of the
18:31platforms is really driving those
18:34decisions? Like I'm trying to
18:35contextualize for somebody listening to
18:36this. Should that be your job to figure
18:39out, hey, this worked. Let's apply it to
18:41other places or is it plausible to hire
18:44somebody who is going to do that on your
18:47behalf? I think it depends on you the
18:49individual. So if that is something that
18:50you love and you're deep in your content
18:52and in socials and you understand those
18:55nuances, then yes, it should be you. But
18:56if that's not your priority and your
18:58priority is elsewhere in your business,
19:00organization, what have you, then you
19:02should hire somebody that complements
19:04that. One of the most important things
19:06and one of the biggest mistakes a lot of
19:07people make is they look at these big
19:08creators and they just try to model
19:10after them. But that doesn't work,
19:12right? Like it's like if I were, you
19:14know, I'm going on a journey where I'm
19:15going to get back into lifting for the
19:17first time in years. And if day one I'm
19:19like, I'm going to do Ronnie Coleman's
19:21routine. I'm [ __ ] Like, I'm getting
19:23injured. Like, it's not going to work,
19:24right? And I think the same exists for
19:26looking at these big creators and trying
19:28to model after them. No, you should
19:30reverse engineer your strengths, your
19:32preferences, and build it around that
19:34rather than what you've seen other
19:36people do. There's been people that I've
19:38worked for that they drove the ship, and
19:40then there's been others that I've
19:41worked for where I was doing more of the
19:43driving. And I I don't think one is
19:46right or wrong. I think it is completely
19:49dependent on you, the individual. When
19:52you're tracking data on some of the best
19:53performing posts, do you have a
19:55historical database of like everything
19:57that's been posted that you can filter
19:59and go back and back and back and like
20:01dig into the archives or are you doing
20:03this on a shorter term basis where
20:04you're like, let's look at last week's
20:06content. Let's look at this last month's
20:07content. What's your data storage and
20:10tracking look like in one of these
20:12operations? Occasionally we'll go into
20:14the historic archives, but I do like to
20:16look more at like the last 90 days. I
20:18think that's uh it provides a lot more
20:20relevancy. As you are very keenly aware,
20:23everything's changing constantly on
20:25these platforms. And so what was working
20:27a year ago, I don't really want to
20:29measure against because everything has
20:31changed at this point. And as far as
20:32tracking data, I I have a couple of
20:34interesting things here. One, I would
20:36encourage everyone in in the audience,
20:38stop tracking everything. I think a lot
20:40of people get over excited with just
20:42like crazy amounts of data. But the
20:44reality is is if it's not changing what
20:46you do, it's pointless to track. Let's
20:48be real. Most of us, we look at a big
20:50spreadsheet with like 15 data points and
20:52we're like overwhelmed and we don't know
20:55how to interpret it, right? It's
20:56completely pointless. It it doesn't help
20:57in any way, shape, or form. So, I would
20:59reduce the amount that you're tracking
21:01to only metrics that change what you
21:05would do. Especially when when you have
21:07a team, you get to this point where
21:09people on the team are reporting on
21:10performance from different platforms and
21:12they'll say things like this video on
21:13Instagram got 100k views or this tweet
21:16got, you know, 1,500 likes and nobody
21:20knows what that actually means, right?
21:22Because we don't have an established
21:24benchmark. We don't know what normal is.
21:27And so we have no idea if that's good or
21:29bad. I like to report data on
21:32multipliers, outliers. So what I do is I
21:35establish a benchmark. Let's say for
21:37example 100K is our benchmark. If we
21:40have a new video that got 150K views,
21:42instead of saying 150, I like to say
21:44this was a 1.5x outlier. Or on the flip
21:47side, if the benchmark is 100K, I like
21:50to report on it as this is
21:52a.5x underperformer basically. And what
21:54this does is this gets everybody, the
21:57talent, the team, and anybody on the
21:59marketing team or outside of it on the
22:01same page understanding what is actually
22:04going on here. And secondly, you can all
22:07of a sudden take a very quick look and
22:09see what you should stop doing and what
22:12you should continue doing. Because I
22:13know you've seen this, Jay, like the
22:15amount of individuals out there and
22:17teams that are posting [ __ ] that they
22:19know is not going to work, but they've
22:21made it. So they're [ __ ] posting it
22:23or they've always done it that way so
22:25they're posting it is absurd. And what
22:27this allows you to do is very quickly
22:29look at it and go why do we keep posting
22:31these podcast clips this way. None of
22:33them are working. Like we've only had
22:35one that's been above a 1x either on
22:38your teams or you're auditing a
22:39potential client. You see their content
22:41and they're consistently doing something
22:43that's not working. Does that have a
22:44negative impact on how platforms treat
22:46their account? If they're posting but
22:48it's just not actually performing well.
22:50Is there a net negative to bad quote
22:53unquote content? I don't ever want to
22:55get into the weeds of pretending like I
22:58know the algorithms and stuff like that.
23:00So, what I will speak to is the human
23:01psychology side of it, which is if you
23:04continually post stuff that people don't
23:05care about, yes, they will eventually
23:07care less about your content and when
23:09they see you pop up, they will be less
23:11inclined to stop scrolling and watch
23:14your [ __ ] So, if I'm in a season of
23:16trying to increase
23:18output, how do you as a team or as an
23:21individual maintain a certain standard
23:23of quality when you're kind of
23:25stretching yourself to a new level of
23:28output that you're trying to reach? I
23:30mean, I again look at how the audience
23:32is reacting to the content as our
23:34measure of quality. If our volume is
23:37going up and we're getting less
23:40engagement, less impressions, then we're
23:42not doing it correctly. And so that's
23:44where I like to use the accordion
23:46method. So like you can expand the
23:48amount you're making, but if you're not
23:50seeing anything come from that, well
23:52then I would encourage people and again
23:55I don't like to
23:56say reduce the volume and increase the
23:59quality because then again we're getting
24:00into that subjectiveness. I like to say
24:02reduce the volume and increase the
24:05effort per piece that you make. Right?
24:08No matter what when you're posting there
24:11are outliers. Now, they might be like
24:13not super significant, right? It might
24:15not be like, you know, 2,000 views,
24:172,000 views, 50K. It might be like 2,000
24:20views, 2,000 views, 4,500, right? But
24:23that's where I, especially in the
24:25beginning, that's the information that
24:27you have. So, that's what you have to go
24:28off of. The thing about content today
24:31and just social media in general, we're
24:34so in it and just about everybody
24:36creates to at least a tiny degree,
24:39right? like they're posting photos to
24:40Instagram and so when they see people at
24:43the top of the mountain they have a
24:46sense of confidence maybe a false
24:48confidence that they understand what it
24:50took to make that piece of content
24:52because they've done the action a little
24:54bit and so as you're talking about these
24:56people coming in and saying I want to do
24:58this thing I want to build my brand and
25:00you don't think they know what it takes
25:01let's dig into that a little bit what
25:03does it actually take in terms of time
25:06capital uh you mentioned privacy which I
25:08think is Interesting. What does it take
25:10to operate at that level? Well, it
25:13depends on the kind of creator you are.
25:14I think a lot of people watching this
25:16probably are in the camp of they're
25:18doing it themselves or they have a very
25:20small team, one or two individuals
25:21potentially. Uh, and I apologize if I'm
25:23getting that wrong, but I think, you
25:25know, for the individuals who are
25:27operating a business, let's say, and
25:29they're building a team around them,
25:32that's going to be a couple of salaries.
25:34Uh, and so that's a big cost right
25:36there, right? You also have the time
25:38that you have to commit not only to
25:41filming the content or capturing the
25:43content, but coming up with the idea.
25:45And I think that's where a lot of people
25:47make the mistake is they don't put a lot
25:48of effort into the idea. I believe the
25:50idea is a minimum of 80% of the formula.
25:53Ideas are where you win, not in the
25:55filming or editing. And so I think
25:58people don't quite realize that it's not
26:00just like, let me grab my phone and film
26:02some selfies real quick off top and then
26:04just post them. That is totally a good
26:07way to get started, but at the top,
26:09you're putting a lot more thought into
26:11it. You're putting so much effort.
26:13Again, like I think you'll probably
26:14notice throughout this episode, I really
26:16hammer the pre-production side of
26:17things. I think a lot of it comes down
26:19to that. And then privacy. If you end up
26:22becoming a fairly well-known brand
26:24online, things change dramatically. And
26:27I, you know, there's a lot of
26:29individuals that have a couple hundred
26:30thousand followers that still when they
26:32go to major metropolitan cities, they
26:34have people noticing them. And there's a
26:37lot that people don't realize. Like if
26:39you're at a restaurant having dinner
26:42with friends and a fan is nearby, I
26:46mean, that that is an interesting thing.
26:48You have you end up typically being a
26:51little bit more thoughtful and
26:53intentional with what you're talking
26:54about there. And uh that might sound
26:57minor if you're watching this and
26:58haven't experienced it, but I myself
27:00have not experienced it, but I've been
27:02around many who have. And it does change
27:04things. It's very interesting. And so
27:06there should be a lot of thought into
27:08why am I doing this? What is the outcome
27:10that I am wanting to create in building
27:13my brand in creating content online and
27:15scaling this thing? Because if you don't
27:18have a really good intention behind it,
27:20I would argue for a lot of people it's
27:22actually not worth it. If you start
27:23working with a creator, let's say they
27:24pass your your bar of they seem
27:27committed, they seem like they have the
27:29resources, they have the pieces in
27:31place, you go in day one. What do you
27:35start doing to amplify this brand?
27:38Typically, it's investing in the team.
27:40Um, and so it's it's looking at what is
27:42the current team structure, who's doing
27:44what, and where do we need to invest in
27:47training? Um, I believe a lot has to
27:51especially for those that and a lot of
27:53the the people we end up partnering with
27:54have a team or are wanting to build a
27:56team, right? So, I I'll speak to that
27:58first. I believe the team is everything.
28:00I think they are the amplifier of your
28:02vision. Uh, if you are wanting to be at
28:05that top 1%, you can't do it alone. And
28:08so I think a lot of teams unfortunately
28:11operate on a top-down approach where
28:14whoever is leading the team is the one
28:16that's driving the strategy across the
28:18board. But the reality is is there's not
28:20a person on earth who is the world's
28:22best or an expert on all the different
28:24platforms. I'm not. But what I am really
28:27good at is giving individuals the
28:30environment to where they can become
28:32experts on one specific platform and
28:35help drive the strategy from a bottom up
28:37approach. And so a lot of what I'm doing
28:39in the very beginning, a lot of the
28:41partners that we have for 2025, we're
28:43working on their team first before we
28:45address anything in the current content
28:47that they're working on. It's investing
28:49in bringing on the right editors, the
28:52right videographer, the right creative
28:53director, establishing the right
28:55processes, establishing a trading
28:57cadence, making sure that everyone
28:59understands why are we making
29:00educational content, what are we doing
29:01with that, like what is the purpose of
29:03it, right? And getting everybody on that
29:05same page, understanding that like we
29:07don't want to make subjective creative
29:09calls. We want to make calls informed on
29:11data, right? If we're making art, we're
29:13doing that on our own time as passion
29:14projects. this is creative that converts
29:16and that's what we want to be building.
29:18And so I think step one is always
29:20evaluating the team. Is there a standard
29:23sort of org chart in your mind that
29:25you're looking to see do we have people
29:26to fit these roles? Back to what we were
29:28talking about earlier, not really
29:30because I'm always trying to build a
29:31team as a reverse engineered system for
29:33the individual that we're building
29:35around. And so, like, one of the best
29:37pieces of advice Gary gave me um when I
29:39moved on from Vayner was when you go and
29:41do this for other people, don't build
29:43what I built, build what they need. Look
29:46at what their preferences, their skills
29:48are. For example, there are plenty of
29:50people that build their brand to a
29:52pretty significant level online and
29:54never make videos cuz they don't want to
29:55be in video. Well, then the typical org
29:58chart of having a videographer and an
30:00editor is pointless, right? And so I
30:02that's where a lot of my counterparts
30:05that that do this um they're great. They
30:08have like kind of a playbook that they
30:09run everybody through and that's a high
30:11volume game and I think that's super
30:13smart for that approach. But for me I
30:15don't want to work with a bunch of
30:17different partners. I want a very select
30:18few that we're building a completely
30:20custom system for because I think that's
30:22what actually lasts. How can somebody
30:25watching this do kind of an a self audit
30:28to say what what can I do to make a team
30:32a better fit for me? So, what is it?
30:35What is your preferred medium? Okay.
30:37Now, a lot of people watching this are
30:40probably down to do all four. Okay. And
30:42the four are video, audio, graphic slash
30:46like visual like um post and then
30:49written. Okay. So, you have four
30:50different mediums to choose from. A lot
30:52of characters watching this are probably
30:54down to do all four. That's amazing. Um,
30:56but what you want to do is you want to
30:57pick the one that you think you show up
30:59best in. Ideally, from a optimization
31:02standpoint, it's video. That's the
31:04highest leverage activity, right? You
31:05can film a long form video. You can
31:07extract shorts. You can extract the
31:08transcript and turn it into LinkedIn
31:10posts. You can pull quotes. You can pull
31:12stills from it to use as post. All of
31:13that. You get so much more traction out
31:15of that. But if you hate video, you're
31:17not going to stick with it. So, you got
31:18to choose your preferred medium and then
31:20you hire accordingly. So, if video is
31:22your preferred medium, cool. In the
31:24beginning, you can film and edit
31:25yourself. But eventually, you get to a
31:26point where there's a bottleneck. And
31:28the question is, what is the bottleneck?
31:30Is it me filming? Is it ideas? Is it
31:33editing? Do I have a ton of footage, but
31:35it's taking me forever to edit? You want
31:37to hire based on the constraints that
31:38pop up on your team, not what you see
31:40other teams doing. We hire people to
31:42solve problems, not to fill an org
31:45chart. Okay? And so, you want to
31:47identify what is the bottleneck. All of
31:50us start making our own content most
31:51likely. Very few of us start with a
31:53team, right? And so you eventually reach
31:56a point where it's like, "Okay, I got a
31:58million ideas. I can't film any of
32:00these." Or, "I got a million ideas. I've
32:02filmed them all. Lord knows I don't have
32:04time to edit all of these." Right? And
32:06that's what you want to hire around. And
32:09slowly, every time that you bring on a
32:11new role, another constraint or
32:14bottleneck will be revealed. And that's
32:16what you want to hire around. I love
32:18this idea of identify the bottleneck um
32:21and and hire based on that. Let's say
32:23someone watching this is down for at
32:26least doing video and text uh and audio.
32:31I don't think as many people watching
32:32this do the graphic stuff. Do you
32:34foresee that people typically have
32:36verticals around platforms then or are
32:39you having crossf functional teams where
32:41it's like I'm an editor and I'm editing
32:44long form I'm editing shorts I'm editing
32:46it for reals and Tik Tok is that
32:48practical oh Jay I love this question
32:51the way I build teams is I do prefer
32:53specialists okay but in the beginning
32:56you can't have a team of specialists
32:57because you have many different areas
32:59that you need to deploy to and very few
33:01headcount so what I prefer is
33:04specialists who have interest in other
33:07areas and are willing to wear multiple
33:10hats in the beginning. That is how you
33:11have to start. Now the final form and
33:14the best version. Yes, you want to like
33:16we talked earlier like the best version
33:18of social or interest media content
33:21whatever you want to call it these days.
33:22You want to make sure that you are
33:25making it contextual to that platform.
33:27And the best version of that is one
33:29creative working on that platform 247 so
33:32that they are ingrained. They understand
33:34it. They eat, live, breathe, no sleep,
33:37that okay, but that's expensive. And so
33:40in the beginning, what I recommend
33:42people do is they identify their top
33:45three platforms that they're going to
33:46prioritize. Okay? And that is what you
33:49want to create your media, your content
33:52for. Okay? So let's just say for
33:54example, it's YouTube, LinkedIn, and
33:55Instagram. Well, okay. You want to make
33:57sure that your team, you and your team
34:00are only creating for those three
34:02platforms. You're not thinking about the
34:03other ones. And then your next three in
34:05priority, they are the platforms you're
34:08just reposting to. I like to call them
34:11maintenance. Okay? And if you're in the
34:14beginning, you don't have the resources
34:16to be able to deploy three people to
34:18three platforms because you only have
34:19one person on your team, right? And so
34:20what I like to do, I'm a Lord of the
34:22Rings nerd, so I use this analogy. You
34:24want to use the Eye of Sauron approach.
34:26You want to tackle one platform at a
34:28time. For us, for example, uh we're
34:31making content this year and YouTube is
34:33number one, LinkedIn's number two,
34:34Instagram's number three. YouTube is
34:36what we are focusing on mostly right
34:38now. We're optimizing that. And once we
34:41have that to a point where I feel good,
34:43I will put it on what I call maintenance
34:44mode and then we will attack LinkedIn.
34:46Right? That doesn't mean that when we're
34:48optimizing YouTube, we're not posting in
34:50these other areas, but we're not
34:52allocating more than 15 20% of our
34:55efforts towards those. As I've kind of
34:57explored hiring on my own, you know,
34:59there's always this question of like, do
35:01I hire somebody full-time on salary? Do
35:04I hire a contractor full-time, but
35:06mostly with me? Do I hire an agency
35:08where it feels like maybe it's safer
35:10because then that person can't just
35:11leave me, but then I also feel like the
35:13incentives aren't totally aligned and
35:14they're just trying to get the like most
35:17acceptable version to me that I'm happy
35:20with, but takes them the least time. How
35:22do you think about these for somebody
35:24who's getting started and trying to
35:25hire? Agencies are for expedited
35:28learning. Um, they typically are experts
35:32and they require no like onboarding,
35:34right? like they can just go
35:36immediately. I think contractors are
35:38great for experimenting and validating
35:40an idea uh with low investment costs,
35:43right? So like maybe for example, if
35:45you're like, I've been blowing up on
35:48LinkedIn with my written and my personal
35:50brand is great there, but I really want
35:52to start tackling YouTube and Instagram
35:54and Tik Tok. Maybe you're not like I'm
35:56100% certain I'm going to be great on
35:58camera. Cool. Hire a videographer for 3
36:00months as a contractor and test it out.
36:02validate that that is actually a good
36:03investment of your time and money. So,
36:05that's what I like to use contractors
36:07for. You should more than likely do like
36:09a trial with them. Um, that's becoming
36:12more and more acceptable in our
36:14industry. And I [ __ ] recommend it so
36:16much. It's not only good for you, it's
36:18good for the other individual to make
36:20sure that they feel like you're a good
36:21fit for them. So, I think it's great for
36:23both parties. Make sure you pay fairly
36:25for that trial. Some people try and like
36:27pay lower than what the actual salary or
36:30rate would be. Don't do that. That's
36:32[ __ ] dumb. It's very shortsighted.
36:34It's like I'm doing a trial cuz I think
36:36this could be a long-term thing. But
36:37let's start off on the wrong foot.
36:38Exactly. And actually what I like to do
36:40is I like to sometimes if possible, if
36:42budget allows, I like to pay a higher
36:44rate for those three months because
36:46they're not a full-time employee, right?
36:47And so like they're incurring the risk
36:50of not having benefits, etc. And so,
36:52like, I do my best even now with my own
36:54business. Like, that's what I try to do.
36:56Now, full-time, there's a lot there,
36:59right? Like, one, you're going to bear a
37:01lot more costs. If you're paying
37:02somebody 100K, they're costing you, the
37:05company, like 125, 130K, right? Cuz
37:07you're paying for benefits, workers, all
37:08that different [ __ ] that the employee
37:10doesn't see. So, they're an investment.
37:13That is a big cost. That's why I like to
37:15validate these ideas with a contractor.
37:17But the beauty of full-time employees is
37:20you're able to establish a stronger
37:22culture and they have more brand
37:24alignment and they're more aligned with
37:26their incentives, I should say, are more
37:28aligned with where you're wanting to go.
37:30The thing that you'll find with agencies
37:32more than contractors and full-time is
37:34often times they have fairly high
37:35turnover on their creatives. And so
37:38maybe you get some consistent work for
37:40like 2 or 3 weeks, but then the notes
37:42that you've been giving uh all of a
37:44sudden they come back. they keep making
37:45the same mistakes because they have a
37:46new editor that didn't maybe get
37:48everything uh passed off to them
37:50correctly or whatever. That's been my
37:52biggest gripe with agencies, right? On
37:54contractors, maybe you're not their
37:56full-time priority and they might have
37:58other brands they're working on, right?
38:00And so, you don't get that continuity
38:01that I like to think of it like
38:03discretionary effort, right? Like when
38:04they're going on a walk, are they
38:06thinking about you or their other
38:07clients, right? And then the full-time
38:10there's the beauty because they're
38:11working for you and their discretionary
38:13efforts going towards you. You're able
38:15to spend a lot more time with them
38:17legally. You can actually require that
38:19they're on meetings. Contractors you
38:21can't require to be on like that's
38:23illegal.
38:24Um 99% of you watching this are probably
38:27doing that. Look into how you're
38:28operating. As a side note, you have a
38:31lot more power there and a lot more
38:35responsibility.
38:36full-time employees. I believe it is
38:39your job to invest in them fully.
38:41Whenever I hire somebody, I want to know
38:43what is their long-term goal and it's my
38:46job to make sure I within reason. We're
38:48a business and we have things that we
38:49have to do, but I want to give you as
38:51many opportunities to get closer to that
38:53to gain the skills necessary. If you
38:54come in as a video editor saying you
38:56want to be a creative director, I want
38:57to invest in those opportunities. Right?
38:59On the contractor side, you're not going
39:01to do that. And so, you have less
39:03investment, but you also have less
39:05loyalty. So, I think that there's
39:07benefits to all of them. Um, we have a
39:10project that we're going to be releasing
39:11soon where I actually do like a full
39:13breakdown and we have like a a whole
39:16table that you can walk through that
39:18basically is a a you know benefit
39:20analysis. And it allows you to determine
39:23at what stage you're at right now. Are
39:25you in the contractor phase? Are you in
39:27the agency phase? Because the thing is
39:28is if you hire an agency, I don't want
39:31to use them long term. I want to bring
39:32them on short term to learn the platform
39:35to gain the skills and invest in my team
39:38and then we rip on our own. Interesting.
39:40So, when you're thinking about hiring an
39:42agency, if you hire an agency, it sounds
39:45like you have the implicit assumption
39:46that actually that agency should really
39:49understand the platforms and we're
39:50learning from the agency, not just
39:52outsourcing a job to the agency.
39:55Correct. I wouldn't hire an agency that
39:56isn't world class at it. Now, obviously,
39:58I've had the luxury of working with
40:00brands that have budgets, right? So like
40:01let's just call the elephant in the
40:04room, right? A lot of us don't have
40:06maybe the budget to spend 15 to 20k a
40:08month on just one platform agency,
40:11right? What you want is not a social
40:14media agency. Those are dog [ __ ] Sorry
40:17if anybody has one of those, but the
40:19reality is is they're not going to be an
40:21expert at any of them, right? And maybe
40:23that's all you can get. So cool, do that
40:25now. But what you really want is an
40:26agency that specializes on one platform.
40:30you get so much more out of them. I can
40:32tell you from years of experience and
40:35spending not thousands, not hundreds,
40:38millions of dollars on agencies. You get
40:41way more value out of specialized
40:43agencies. I'm going to offend people
40:45probably, but it's the same as like the
40:46social media manager role. I don't hire
40:49those because they're a generalist and
40:52they don't understand, you know, Jay,
40:54like these platforms are evolving so
40:56fast, it's impossible for one person to
40:57keep up with all of them. And it's the
40:59same on the agency side. Yeah. I think a
41:01lot of people come to this question of
41:02like, do I hire an agency versus a
41:04contractor? And they're just thinking, I
41:05want the output of like video edited.
41:09Uh, you know, they're thinking about
41:11like, let me take this from raw material
41:13to asset and not necessarily asset
41:15optimized for a platform. Uh, so it's
41:18interesting to hear when you hear
41:19agency, you think predominantly like
41:22institutional knowledge of a specific
41:24platform beyond the asset. what you're
41:26describing is 2015 versus 2025. 2015, it
41:30was very valid to be like, I'm going to
41:32hire a video production agency that's
41:34going to make my content because all the
41:36platforms behaved very similarly, right?
41:38Like I remember in 2018, if I posted a
41:41clip on Tik Tok and it did really well,
41:43I knew it was going to murder on
41:44Instagram, on Facebook, everywhere I
41:47posted it. Now, not the case at all.
41:50You'll have clips that do incredible on
41:51Tik Tok that flop or vice versa with
41:54Instagram, right? And so I think the
41:57landscape has changed, but a lot of
41:59agencies have not. What's the next thing
42:01you do? How do you get to the actual
42:03content strategy that should happen for
42:06that client? Well, uh it comes from
42:08understanding what they're wanting to
42:10have happen. So I walk through the brand
42:12journey framework with them and make
42:13sure that I understand what the outcomes
42:15are that they want, right? And that
42:16takes us to today's actions, right? like
42:18what are they doing in order to be known
42:20for the thing? Cool. Well, if that's the
42:22case, then we create the strategy around
42:25showing them doing it, right? I think we
42:27live in a world right now where a lot of
42:28people are sitting on their couch
42:30talking to a camera telling you about
42:32things. And this is where I think the
42:35value of vlogs come in. I think vlogs
42:37are not necessarily a width play,
42:38they're a depth play. And they show the
42:40expertise. And so for a lot of people
42:42that I partner with, I emphasize
42:45figuring out their version, their
42:47formatting of a vlog. Back to what we
42:49were talking about earlier with trust
42:50and how important trust is. The
42:53skepticism in the audience's eyes right
42:55now in the world is at an all-time high.
42:58Why? Because there's a lot of [ __ ]
43:00huers out there that are talking [ __ ]
43:03that they're not actually doing, right?
43:05Tons of them on Tik Tok and YouTube
43:07right now. the competitive moat that you
43:09can create around yourself is showing
43:11yourself in action, showing that you
43:13actually do these things. And so that's
43:15usually one of the first things that I
43:17want to tackle. Again, I know it's not a
43:19width play. These aren't getting
43:21millions of views, but what it is doing
43:23is it's establishing a very strong
43:25foundation with your core audience, the
43:27ones who will be your champions and will
43:30elevate your brand. It shows them that
43:33you are actually what you say you are.
43:35And so I like to start there. And then
43:36what I want to do is start getting more
43:39contextual to the platform. So it's like
43:40figuring out, okay, if we've identified
43:42YouTube's number one, okay, we do need
43:44to make direct to camera videos because
43:45right now still to this day, that is
43:47working really well. And so we need to
43:49figure out your version of that where we
43:50can demonstrate your knowledge, right?
43:52And so yeah, it's really taking it
43:54platform by platform and figuring out
43:56what are the formats and mediums that
43:58show your expertise, your knowledge in
44:01the best way possible. I'm a big fan of
44:04demonstrate, right? Like a lot of people
44:06are just talking, but you need to show
44:08it in action. And whatever that that's
44:11different versions for different people.
44:12For some people, if they have a group
44:15coaching call, cool. It's just making
44:17sure that that makes it online even at
44:20the expense in my opinion of views.
44:23Because ultimately, I think that brand
44:24is far more than just views. And so you
44:28want to make sure that you are playing I
44:31I typically when we're making content I
44:33like to think of it as one objective.
44:36Either this is a width play. We're
44:37trying to get maximum amount of
44:39awareness or this is a depth play. We're
44:41trying to build a deeper connection and
44:44trust with our current audience. And if
44:47you aim for one or the other, that's
44:49great. If you try to do both, you're not
44:51going to accomplish either in a single
44:53piece of content. You mean? Correct.
44:55Yeah. And and the reason why I like to
44:56do this is because I like the team and
44:58the talent I'm working with to
45:00understand what winning looks like. But
45:01you don't understand what winning looks
45:02like if you don't define what that is on
45:04the upfront. And so I like to call it
45:06out in production. I'm like this video
45:09we all know this is a super deep heady
45:12video. This is not going wide. But
45:14everyone who watches this is going to be
45:15like damn Jay's a [ __ ] expert. Love
45:18that. So when you are thinking about the
45:20proportion of width versus depth
45:23content, what is your typical go-to?
45:26Just like I said up top, I I follow the
45:28accordion method. You have to contract
45:30and expand it over time. In the
45:33beginning, I actually recommend a lot of
45:35my counterparts would say go the width
45:38play, right? Like make really wide
45:40content, top of funnel, get more people.
45:42But if you make content around the fact
45:46that like your Starbucks order hack for
45:48example, right? And that's not what
45:50you're you're not a fitness person,
45:52you're a business person, but that's
45:53what you do. You're going to get a lot
45:55of audience that just wants more of that
45:56content. So it goes to what we were
45:58talking about at the top where you trap
46:00yourself, right? So in the beginning, I
46:02believe people should build far more
46:05deep content. Demonstrate your
46:07expertise. Establish that you are a true
46:09subject matter expert. That's why video
46:11number two that I'm going to be posting
46:12on my YouTube is going to be like super
46:15in-depth, right? Like I want to
46:17establish to the audience that I'm going
46:19to be building. I'm not just one of
46:21those guys that's talking about the
46:23current Instagram hack that I've seen
46:26Moseri post and that I'm just
46:28regurgitating, right? Like no, I've been
46:30in this for 16 [ __ ] years. Like I I
46:33have some thoughts based on data, right?
46:36I believe you want to build that strong
46:38foundation. the people that do the
46:40other, they have a very tough time
46:42transitioning into their core subject
46:45matter that leads to their core offer.
46:47And so in the beginning, establish depth
46:50and over time, I believe people should
46:53then start to add more context to who
46:56they are to their brand. How do you
46:58think about the role content plays in
47:01the business as a whole? I know it
47:02sounds kind of abstract, but we're kind
47:04of making some assumptions about why
47:06people are making content, you know,
47:07building the brand, but talk to me about
47:10what you've thought about in terms of
47:11content and how that affects the bottom
47:13line of a business. I believe that what
47:16you are doing with educational content
47:18is you are just trying to scale trust
47:21and trust is the currency that precedes
47:26the transaction. Okay, trust is
47:28everything. It makes everything move way
47:31faster and smoother in business both on
47:34the front end and the back end. That
47:35means customer acquisition and talent
47:38acquisition. And so ultimately if we are
47:40trying to scale trust and we believe
47:42that branding is the intentional pairing
47:45of relevant things done consistently
47:47which then creates the byproduct brand
47:49when the audience inherently associates
47:52those things together. Then what we're
47:54wanting to do with our educational
47:56content in the beginning is we want to
47:59intentionally pair our brand with
48:02success stories. If you're making
48:03educational content, you should probably
48:05have clients, customers, community
48:08members, whatever that have had success
48:10off of what you're sharing. And so what
48:12you want to do is your volume, your
48:14percentage of content should be
48:16overwhelmingly case studies, customer
48:18testimonial stories, but not in the
48:20boring way that lives three tabs deep on
48:22your website that nobody watches in a
48:232025 contextual way. So what you want to
48:26do is you want to share those stories.
48:28And what happens is as you do that
48:30consistently, your audience will start
48:33to associate you with those success
48:35stories. And the cool thing that happens
48:37there is then they begin to trust what
48:39you have to say more. And they go from
48:42just passively consuming what you're
48:44saying to starting to take action.
48:46Education is actually occurring because
48:48they're changing their actions. They're
48:49no longer doing things the same. And
48:51when they do that, they're going to
48:53start to get the results. Their desired
48:56outcome starts to occur. And when that
48:58happens, the intentional pairing
49:01changes. They no longer associate you
49:03with general success. They start to
49:06associate you with their success. And
49:08when they associate you with their
49:10success, they trust you an immense
49:13amount. And what they start to realize
49:15is, wow, I get so much more in return
49:19for what I invest. Whenever Jay says
49:22something, I'm investing my time in
49:25consuming it, acting on it, and look at
49:28the outcome I get. So then the moment
49:30that you make your audience aware of an
49:32offer you have, they have an incredible
49:35belief that what you're offering is
49:38going to give them far more than what
49:40they invest in it. And so you're
49:42essentially teaching your audience, hey,
49:45when I say something, you get far more
49:48value acting on it than what you invest.
49:51All of a sudden, now your team is no
49:53longer trying to do this like woo woo
49:55mysticism and making content. It's like,
49:57okay, cool. If we're making educational
49:58content, our whole goal is how do we
50:00make it easier for the audience to
50:02change what they do after consuming this
50:04piece of content? When it comes to the
50:07offers, where do explicit like calls to
50:10action for offers play a role in your
50:13content strategy? The best version, and
50:16then we can work back to reality, is you
50:19never make a right hook in your organic
50:22content. We all know, everyone watching
50:25this, you all know when you do that,
50:27nobody [ __ ] engages. It's a flop
50:29every time. It's a lower performer.
50:31Every once in a while, I'm sure we've
50:32all had that one that worked, but by and
50:35large, they don't work. So, what did you
50:37just do? Well, you just kind of annoyed
50:39your audience. Not not that bad, but it
50:42wasn't a value ad. You also took up a
50:45valuable posting slot. That's a double
50:48loss. What I prefer and again this is
50:50why I qualify with this is the best case
50:52scenario is you post and you just give
50:55give give give give in your organic and
50:59then you ask in paid. You retarget your
51:04viewers people who have engaged with
51:06your organic content where you have been
51:08providing them value aka usefulness and
51:11you ask them there. I have found that is
51:14the perfect marriage and that is the
51:16best case scenario. Now, a lot of us
51:18don't have budgets for running paid,
51:19right? And if that's the case, then yes,
51:21you do have to do it. What I recommend
51:24you do is you still give immense amounts
51:28of value. So, my approach to this,
51:30because I'm not going to be running paid
51:32for the first year probably for Rolston,
51:34right? So, what I'm doing is in my
51:37content, I'm trying to give an
51:38overwhelming amount of value. So much so
51:41that it's like very clear what people
51:43should do, but it's like, wow, for the
51:46ones that really want to execute on
51:47this, I'm going to need some help. I try
51:49to share the knowledge and sell the
51:51execution. So, I at the very end be
51:54like, I I'm very not salesy, so I'll
51:57just say [ __ ] like, and if that seems
51:59like [ __ ] overwhelming and like a
52:01nightmare to execute on, and you're
52:02like, Jesus, I don't I don't know if I
52:03can do this. Well, then that's what my
52:05team is here for. We provide guidance. I
52:07like soft [ __ ] like that personally
52:10because I like to let my content do the
52:12selling, not me. We've talked a lot
52:14about uh social media, YouTube, um kind
52:17of these discovery platforms, these
52:19platforms that have a discovery
52:20mechanism built in. I don't think we've
52:22said the word email. Where does email
52:24live in your content strategy? Super
52:26super important. It's the it's your
52:29direct access to your audience, to your
52:32customers. What people don't realize is
52:34like you're making a huge ask when
52:37saying, "Hey, leave this app you're
52:39currently on. Go to my website, enter
52:42your email, and that's it." And it
52:44sounds so simple, but that is a massive
52:47request, right? And so what you have to
52:49do is make sure that there is massive
52:51value in my opinion in return for doing
52:54that. This is where people will have
52:56playbooks, checklists, SOPs, courses on
53:00their site, even for free just for email
53:03opt-in. And that is a strategy that I
53:05really prefer. I like value and
53:07providing a lot of value or as much as I
53:09can humanly possible. And so what I
53:11would tell people to do is create more
53:14extensive, deeper dives that go deeper
53:17than maybe your organic does on your
53:19site that people can get in exchange for
53:22an email. I think a lot of people send a
53:24weekly newsletter to check a box and a
53:27lot of their audience tunes out because
53:28of it. Only send [ __ ] if you have true
53:31actual value that's going to be very
53:33useful. Like we're going to be building
53:34a newsletter this year and I'm not going
53:36to send it on a specific cadence. I'm
53:39only sending [ __ ] if I'm like, yo, this
53:41is going to radically change either your
53:43perspective or your operations. You
53:45mentioned, you know, doing a deeper dive
53:47on the website as something that you
53:49trade an email for. How do you get
53:50people to the website? I will give you
53:52what I am going to do, my big strategy
53:54for 2025. We just filmed a massive uh
53:59course on how to build a brand. And
54:01rather than gatekeeping that behind a
54:03payw wall on my site, um rather than
54:05gatekeeping it behind an email opt-in
54:08capture thing on my website, I'm going
54:10to drop it completely for free on
54:11YouTube. All of it. Uh final runtime, I
54:13have no idea what it'll be cuz I have
54:15the gift of Gab and uh my content
54:17director, Trevor, is probably going to
54:18have to do some serious trimming there.
54:20But we're going to drop that completely
54:21for free. And people have asked me, the
54:24few that I've talked to about it,
54:25they're like, "Well, how are you
54:26capturing emails then?" Well, I am going
54:28to be releasing a lot of different
54:30playbooks, SOPs, and worksheets
54:32throughout the course that you can get
54:34for free at my website and all you need
54:37to do is enter your email. And so
54:38throughout the content, we will be
54:40dropping or releasing little lower
54:42thirds that describe what the download
54:44is and how they can go get it. And so,
54:46and I walk through those things in the
54:50course. I reference it. My goal is for
54:52you to not just watch this. That's
54:53entertainment. I want you to take
54:54action, which is education. And so, we
54:56have these worksheets, playbooks, SOPs
54:59that you can download so that you take
55:00this entertainment and turn it into
55:03education and actually take action on
55:04it, right? And so, I'm just
55:05incentivizing them to go there. I'm
55:07aware that I'm not going to get every
55:09one of the viewers, but that's okay. I I
55:12believe personally that if you provide
55:15so much upfront and you don't do kind of
55:18the weird annoying hacky [ __ ] that a lot
55:21of people in our space do, I think you
55:23stand out and people are more than
55:26likely to go because they know that the
55:29value is there. You just mentioned your
55:32content director, Trevor. You're
55:34recently on your out on your own. It
55:36sounds like this is a new hire. So,
55:39you're you're building your own content
55:41team right now. Uh, why did you choose a
55:44content director and also how did you
55:46find somebody that you trusted to do
55:48that? Well, I've worked with Trevor
55:51for up to four years now. Uh, we've
55:54worked on different projects together. I
55:55trust him implicitly. I've had the
55:57opportunity to train him. I want to say
55:59I got lucky um because I don't think
56:02most people watching this are going to
56:03be in that scenario. But what I
56:05definitely did not want to be is the
56:06hairdresser with bad hair or the dentist
56:08with shitty teeth, right? Like I
56:11historically, you called it before we
56:13started rolling, like I haven't even
56:14done many podcasts, right? I've made
56:16very little content. I've been the guy
56:18behind the scenes doing this, right? And
56:20I believe this year is the right year
56:22for me to start sharing more of my
56:24thoughts publicly and my beliefs and my
56:26theories. I wanted Trevor because he is
56:32multidisciplinary.
56:34Okay, so he is very good at filming. He
56:37is his best where he is most skilled is
56:40short form, but the dude is a [ __ ]
56:42sponge. Okay, and he he soaks everything
56:46up. He learns so quickly and never makes
56:48the same mistake twice. Those are some
56:50characteristics for those of you
56:52watching, listening that I would
56:53recommend you look for is
56:55curiosity, no ego, like everyone has an
56:59ego, so minimal ego, uh as in they're
57:02open to you correcting what they're
57:04doing and they don't take it personally.
57:06They understand that you're trying to
57:08help them get better, right? Uh number
57:10three is uh well, I said curiosity. I
57:13didn't hammer on that. I think like no
57:15matter what subject matter you're in,
57:17you want somebody that's making your
57:18content and leading that initiative that
57:20actually cares about what you're talking
57:21about. They're the one that is going to
57:23ask you the best questions. That course
57:25that we filmed, right? It would have
57:27been great if I just sat down and filmed
57:29it myself. It was 10 times better
57:30because I told Trevor up front, I said,
57:32"I want you to think through the frame
57:33of a skeptic. Think like a troll. What
57:36are all the different ways that people
57:37could poke holes in what I'm saying?
57:39What are the things that you know that
57:41I've shared that I didn't mention that
57:43you could bring up? And so something
57:44I've always tried to do on set, whether
57:46I'm the videographer or when I got to
57:48the point where I was hiring
57:49videographers, is follow-up questions.
57:52Like, as you're filming content, you
57:54should have your team taking note of
57:55like follow-up questions, things that
57:57the audience is already asking you in
57:59the comments. Just like a good video
58:01sales letter overcomes objections for
58:03the salespeople, like you should be
58:04overcoming objections in your content.
58:07These are all things that I'm looking
58:08for. The reason why he's a content
58:10director is because he is not overseeing
58:12just one area. He's building out my
58:15entire content system. Like I lean on
58:17him. You may resonate with this, Jay. I
58:20um I know what I would tell any partner
58:24that we partner with to do, but then
58:25when I look at myself, I'm like, "What
58:27the [ __ ] do I do, Trevor? You got to
58:29tell me what you need from me, right? Do
58:31we need to shoot photos? Do we need to
58:33what what cadence do we want to post the
58:34podcast?" like I'm completely like when
58:38it comes to me, you know, I thought
58:39about it and to me I was like this is
58:41such a worthwhile investment. I know
58:44what this is going to provide, right?
58:46And I think also I want to eat my own
58:48dog food. If I'm telling people to
58:50invest in building out something, I want
58:53to also do the same thing and be or lead
58:56by example. I heard you say before that
58:59one of your tenants in the like editing
59:02and revision process is you leave a lot
59:05of comments about things you like versus
59:08just saying change these things. Yes.
59:10And I think that's such a great tip that
59:12I definitely don't do as much as I
59:14should. Can you speak to why that is
59:17important to you when you're giving
59:18feedback to your creative teams? First
59:20off, editors spend an incredible amount
59:22of energy, right? Like they get a big
59:25amount on Frame.io for example, they get
59:28a hundred revisions. Cool. I'll go and
59:30make those. But what they are left
59:33wondering for the next video is, well,
59:34what did they like that they want me to
59:36continue doing? And then they have to
59:38spend energy, mental bandwidth,
59:41determining what am I going to continue
59:43doing, right? I want to eliminate that.
59:46I want as much of their energy going to
59:48new creative ways to solve problems in
59:51the edit, right? Not thinking about what
59:53should I continue doing. So, one, I want
59:55to point out [ __ ] that I want them to
59:56continue doing so that they know I want
59:58that, right? Two, I believe it builds
1:00:01momentum. I prefer like whenever I am
1:00:04leaving comments on a video, I'm going
1:00:06to leave more comments about what I like
1:00:09versus what I don't like because I also
1:00:11think I mean I spent the first 13 years
1:00:13of my career being an editor. I know
1:00:15what it's like. Like I want to know that
1:00:17my work was good, right? Even on my
1:00:19revisions, I actually believe that the
1:00:23majority of them don't need to take
1:00:24place on this current video. So, if it
1:00:26doesn't make or break the video or the
1:00:28brand and we're at a seven and this will
1:00:31take it to an eight, if we're talking
1:00:33short form, especially, I'll tell them,
1:00:35"Here's a note. Don't worry about it on
1:00:37this video. Do it on the next one." I
1:00:39like the momentum. I don't want to get
1:00:40bogged down because ultimately the
1:00:42majority of those notes majority cuz if
1:00:45they're not brand or video detrimental,
1:00:48they're just a subjective call I'm
1:00:49making. Maybe I want the font to be a
1:00:51little bit bigger or I want it to be
1:00:52this color or whatever. That's a
1:00:54subjective call. I don't want to [ __ ]
1:00:55debate that. Let's let the audience
1:00:56determine. Now, on long form videos, I
1:00:58do put a little bit more emphasis on on
1:01:01getting it up there. Mainly because
1:01:03typically in long form, you're putting
1:01:05out less volume, so you have slower
1:01:07feedback cycles. the feedback loop is
1:01:10not as quick as short form. So with
1:01:12short form, it's like let let's do it
1:01:14and then here's the reality. 30 seconds
1:01:16after your audience watched the video,
1:01:18they've already forgotten about it. So
1:01:19if you re-edit it with those notes in
1:01:21mind next week and post it, nobody
1:01:23knows. Um and so like that that's
1:01:25typically why I like to do that. I I
1:01:27just think that this fasttracks editors
1:01:29so much more and and it allows them to
1:01:32feel empowered to spend their energy on
1:01:35innovation rather than duplication.
1:01:38Yeah, I think it feels much more like a
1:01:40collaboration or a partnership, too.
1:01:41It's it's not like, hey, here's this
1:01:43thing that I expect you to do. We're
1:01:45doing it together and I am empowering
1:01:47you to make creative decisions and I
1:01:49want to recognize and say that I like
1:01:52that or maybe this didn't go come over
1:01:55across the way it should, but calling
1:01:56out stuff that you like specifically, I
1:01:58think is such a great note when you're
1:02:00working with a creative team. I also
1:02:02think that like so many of
1:02:04us override our editors on a on a
1:02:08creative call. And I think that does a
1:02:13lot of bad things, but the biggest one
1:02:14is that it changes the way that the
1:02:17editor thinks and starts to not allow
1:02:20them to have ownership and agency. And
1:02:23all of a sudden, they're just looking to
1:02:24you to solve all their problems. But
1:02:26that's not why they you hired them. You
1:02:29didn't hire them for you to do their
1:02:30job, right? When it came to some thing
1:02:33that we were debating on a video, I
1:02:36almost always default to what the editor
1:02:38wants to do. Again, unless it's brand
1:02:40detrimental, I will share my opinion. I
1:02:43will tell them, "No, I don't think this
1:02:44is the right hook. I think this section
1:02:45is." But if you like that hook, let's do
1:02:47it. Let's run it and see who's right. or
1:02:50the best case scenario now that we have
1:02:52trial reels is let's do both versions
1:02:55and run it and let you see whether your
1:02:58call was right or mine was. And as a
1:03:00side note as the leader and for all the
1:03:02people that lead a team out here, this
1:03:04is a big kicker. When you're wrong, be
1:03:06the first to admit it. Don't let them go
1:03:08around talking to each other about how,
1:03:10oh, Caleb made the wrong call. I I would
1:03:12immediately hop into Slack and be like,
1:03:14look at who's the biggest doofus here
1:03:16today. I I told you that this was right.
1:03:18like I'm the big shot, but I was totally
1:03:20wrong. I've heard you say, at least when
1:03:22you're working with the Hermosis, that
1:03:24you guys didn't look at the content
1:03:26other people created as part of your
1:03:27pre-production. Is that true? I want to
1:03:29qualify it by saying yes, of course we
1:03:31did, but not within our lane. So, I
1:03:35don't really like to consume like with
1:03:38them, for example, I was not consuming
1:03:40business creator content. I like to look
1:03:42at other niches, right? A big one that I
1:03:45like to observe and see trends on and
1:03:47look at packaging formats is uh any
1:03:50creators on the video game space. I
1:03:52think they do an incredible job of
1:03:54coming up with new packaging formats on
1:03:57YouTube as an example, right? I like to
1:04:00look at other industries and borrow
1:04:03formats from them. The problem with what
1:04:07majority of people are doing is they
1:04:09look at the top dog in their space and
1:04:12they just duplicate everything. And
1:04:14guess what? You will always be number
1:04:16two tops. And so I think the reason why
1:04:20over the last 3 years we were the
1:04:22pioneers and everyone was copying us is
1:04:24because we weren't looking at anybody in
1:04:26our fishbowl. I would encourage you
1:04:28consume [ __ ] outside of this world,
1:04:30right? And if you're going to consume
1:04:32business content, consume old [ __ ]
1:04:34right? like books where you're learning
1:04:37so that you can ask better questions or
1:04:38understand business concepts better. But
1:04:40we don't want to be watching all the
1:04:42other business creators on YouTube
1:04:44because then you just look like them.
1:04:46And that's why a lot of the space
1:04:49currently looks the same right now. And
1:04:50the only ones who are actually driving
1:04:52innovation in my opinion are the ones
1:04:55that ignore everything in their space
1:04:57and they're looking elsewhere. Let's say
1:04:59that of these four types of content you
1:05:01mentioned of audio, video, text,
1:05:04graphics, let's say I'm equally
1:05:06interested and well served to any of
1:05:09them. Do you think there are unique
1:05:12opportunities for any particular
1:05:13platform right now or is that just not
1:05:16the way to think about it? I love this
1:05:18question and I don't normally like to go
1:05:19into tactics because I think that that's
1:05:21more fishing for people rather than
1:05:23teaching them how to fish. But I will
1:05:24just jump in for a second here. I think
1:05:26LinkedIn is like the platform I'm most
1:05:28interested in right now. Um whether you
1:05:31are B2B or not, I do not give a [ __ ]
1:05:33People are now at the point where
1:05:34they're uploading the photo of them and
1:05:37the family in the minivan going on a
1:05:38road trip. Like it is not just like your
1:05:41digital resume anymore, right? It is a
1:05:43true social media platform. It's like
1:05:45Facebook was in 2014. Gary's been saying
1:05:47this for years and Gary tends to be very
1:05:49early on these things, but it is it is
1:05:52there right now. There is not another
1:05:54platform that has more true organic
1:05:55reach than LinkedIn. Like Jay, when I
1:05:57comment on your post, all of my
1:05:59connections see that. That's [ __ ]
1:06:01absurd. There's not another platform
1:06:02that's operating that way. So, I think
1:06:04the current, you know, as of February
1:06:0620th, uh 11:53 a.m. Pacific time, 2025,
1:06:11that is where I see the most
1:06:12opportunity. And it sounds like you're
1:06:14saying that from just a pure supply and
1:06:16demand of content and attention rather
1:06:18than saying like, I'm interested
1:06:19specifically in video on LinkedIn right
1:06:21now. Well, I mean, they did release the
1:06:23video tab about six months ago, seven
1:06:25months ago now, and for the first three
1:06:26months, it was dog [ __ ] Didn't do
1:06:28anything. And for the last four months,
1:06:29I've been noticing every month it's
1:06:31increasing in value. So, I do think that
1:06:33like video tab is very crucial. And so,
1:06:36I do think that there's an opportunity
1:06:37there. I would say it's not the medium
1:06:41that is the opportunity on LinkedIn. I
1:06:42think it's showing up as a [ __ ]
1:06:44human. 99% of people that are posting
1:06:46are using chatbt prompts to make their
1:06:48content and they all sound like robots
1:06:50and exactly the same and they think that
1:06:52because it's LinkedIn and it has this
1:06:54business thing they need to show up as a
1:06:55business person and stuffy and it's like
1:06:57if you show up with your actual
1:06:58personality god damn you will stand the
1:07:00[ __ ] out. We haven't really talked about
1:07:02audio. Uh where does audio live in your
1:07:04content strategy? I think podcasting is
1:07:06huge and traditionally has been kind of
1:07:08an afterthought for a lot of creators
1:07:10especially in the business space. It's
1:07:11kind of like a catch-all. It's
1:07:13repurposed from other content. I think
1:07:15there is so much value in podcasting
1:07:18right now. I think from an advertising
1:07:20standpoint, I think the industry average
1:07:22right now is you put a dollar in, you
1:07:23get four out. Crazy. That's [ __ ]
1:07:25absurd, right? I think podcasting is
1:07:28incredibly powerful. One thing I would
1:07:30encourage people to think about, this is
1:07:32not a rule, this is not me telling you
1:07:33what to do, just a a thought, is um
1:07:37potentially considering having your show
1:07:40have guests on it and maybe you have a
1:07:43moderator. Maybe you have a moderator
1:07:45that presents things and allows for
1:07:49discussion almost like a fireside chat.
1:07:52And and the reason why I say that is not
1:07:54everybody is established like you, Jay.
1:07:55Like you've built an incredible
1:07:57audience. you have a really strong brand
1:08:00in the space, but I think that that is a
1:08:02format that is harder to stand out in.
1:08:05And so I would encourage people to start
1:08:06to explore. I think there's been very
1:08:08little innovation in the podcast space
1:08:10actually and I think there's about to be
1:08:12a lot more. I think Spotify is really
1:08:15changing the game right now. Traditional
1:08:16podcasters hate Spotify right now,
1:08:18right? They're just doing everything
1:08:19different. Like they're releasing video.
1:08:22They're going to be rolling out
1:08:23different forms of like short form
1:08:25content that are in the feed. they're
1:08:27beginning to have a more discoverable
1:08:30platform rather than just one where you
1:08:32have to go search it out. And so I think
1:08:34podcasting, you know, it's probably one
1:08:36of the oldest mediums actually that
1:08:38we've talked about, but I think it's one
1:08:39of the highest value still. 60% of the
1:08:42people who join my membership, which is
1:08:44my core offer, credit the podcast and
1:08:46their application. So it's it's a huge
1:08:48needle mover in terms of the trust you
1:08:50were talking about. What about
1:08:52collaborations? People like Gary and
1:08:54Alex, they show up on a lot of other
1:08:56people's podcasts. Is that specifically
1:08:58part of a content strategy or is that
1:09:00just kind of opportunistic will take
1:09:02that when it makes sense? Yes, it
1:09:05absolutely is part of the strategy and
1:09:06it's super uh smart to do that. There's
1:09:09a lot of people out there that have this
1:09:10belief like I could take the time that I
1:09:13deploy to going on other people's
1:09:14podcasts and just make more of my own
1:09:16content. But the reality is is you're
1:09:19making the assumption that the algorithm
1:09:21is going to push that content into a
1:09:23completely new audience when I could
1:09:25just have the wonderful opportunity to
1:09:28talk to Jay and have Jay's audience now
1:09:31see my [ __ ] right, and hear my
1:09:32thoughts. So, I think it's really
1:09:34important on that standpoint. One thing
1:09:36I think a lot of people are not careful
1:09:37about, you know, I want to be careful in
1:09:39how I say this so that it's respectful
1:09:41to everyone out there, but I try to be
1:09:43very careful about what shows I go on.
1:09:45And the reason why is I think that back
1:09:49to our definition of branding and brand.
1:09:51If you are showing up on a lot of
1:09:55questionable individuals podcasts or
1:09:57let's just go there in the business
1:09:59space there's a lot of scam artists in
1:10:01my opinion and a lot of them have
1:10:03podcasts. They're selling [ __ ] that
1:10:06is not valuable. If I start to appear on
1:10:08a lot of those podcasts, all of a sudden
1:10:11the audience because I am intentionally
1:10:13pairing myself with something relevant
1:10:15consistently, the audience will begin to
1:10:18inherently associate me with those
1:10:21individuals. So, I would urge people
1:10:24that are either f like very far along in
1:10:27their journey or are just starting out.
1:10:30If you're far along, start getting more
1:10:31intentional about who you're choosing.
1:10:33And if you're in the beginning, lucky
1:10:35you. You get to start from the get-go
1:10:37thinking this way. And what this means
1:10:39is like doing an audit. Jay, when when
1:10:42you reached out, when we first started
1:10:43talking, the first thing I did is look
1:10:44at your YouTube channel and look at like
1:10:46who are the guests that you're having
1:10:48on. And I was like, "Oh, I would love to
1:10:51be paired with these individuals. You
1:10:53have some very cool guests." I also
1:10:55listened to one of your episodes and I
1:10:57was like, "Damn, Jay doesn't ask
1:10:59[ __ ] questions. He asked really
1:11:01thoughtful, very good qu like really
1:11:03good, dude. Like incredibly good. Thank
1:11:05you. And I was like this. I would love
1:11:08to be paired with Jay. That would be a
1:11:10great thing for my audience to associate
1:11:13me with. So I would really encourage
1:11:16people do it, but be intentional with
1:11:18whose shows you go on. None of what we
1:11:20talked about today will matter without
1:11:22knowing how to make a great video. Watch
1:11:24this video I did with Patty Galloway
1:11:26where he reveals how you can analyze
1:11:27outlier videos to go viral in any niche.
1:11:34[Music]

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