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Media Summit of the Americas - A Conversation with Facebook Whistleblower Frances Haugen — Transcript

by ASU's Walter Cronkite School of Journalism · 7,469 words · 1,205 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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2:40oh
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2:55all right um and now please help me
2:58welcome francis hogan and enriquez to
3:00the stage thank
3:02you thank you so much uh thanks for
3:06being here today francis
3:07welcome to la
3:09um
3:11frances haugen is a data scientist um
3:14she's pushing for
3:16more accountability from our social
3:18media platforms
3:20um
3:20i don't know if you catched her
3:22interview well one of her interviews
3:25last year on 60 minutes when she
3:27revealed a
3:28a amount large amount of documents
3:32that prove how how this
3:36business has operate specifically
3:38facebook
3:39and and since then well
3:41testified in congress and has been
3:43advocating for these issues
3:45all over the world basically
3:47so thanks thanks again for for being
3:49here francis and and i think this
3:50information information operations my
3:53information there there's there's many
3:55ways to refer to this um
3:57has become the the one of the most
3:59important stories of the last decade
4:01impacting everything from politics and
4:03race to
4:04public health climate science um
4:08it seems that social media platforms
4:10have built a business model that's ripe
4:12for
4:13um for for hyper partisanship for
4:16polarization and and
4:18uh
4:19for incentivizing the kind of uh
4:21of of of of hate and and an emotional
4:25response to content that has created so
4:27much problems um so the first thing i
4:29wanted to ask you was and using
4:31facebook's own research is saying that
4:33that their their platform incentivizes
4:36hate speech and political division and
4:39this information how do they amplify
4:41that how does that happen
4:44so
4:46facebook when each of us think of like
4:48what is facebook we usually think when i
4:50ask people they say you know facebook is
4:52for seeing content for my family and
4:54friends
4:55the reality is facebook hasn't been that
4:57since like 2008.
4:59over that period of time facebook has
5:00pushed us into more and more content
5:03that we never asked for so that's things
5:05like your friend put a comment on
5:07something and they insert that post into
5:09your feed you never followed the
5:10original writer the poster of that
5:11content or someone invited you to a
5:13group and you never joined it but
5:16because facebook put the content in your
5:18feed for 30 days and you clicked on
5:20something and they said oh you like it
5:22we'll treat it as a follow when those
5:24things are combined with algorithms that
5:27prioritize some content over other
5:29content
5:31and those same algorithms rewarding
5:34extreme content over consensus building
5:36content compassionate content you get
5:38the perfect storm
5:39so back in 2018 facebook made a choice
5:43for business reasons
5:44that radically shifted our information
5:47environment
5:48so prior to 2018 all the facebook cared
5:50about was could they keep you on their
5:52site longer
5:53could they maximize the time spent okay
5:55in 2018 they came in and said oh
5:57interesting if you get more likes more
5:59comments more researchers you make more
6:01content we make more money because
6:02people view more content people view
6:04more ads so we make more money if you're
6:06more engaged if you're if you so so if
6:08yeah if we can get more engagement in
6:10the system if we can prioritize high
6:11engagement content you're going to
6:13respond to all those more likes and
6:15comments and research by producing more
6:16content but there was a side effect
6:18which was all across europe
6:21on the left on the right political
6:23priorities were saying we know you
6:24changed something it used to be we could
6:26put out the bread and butter of
6:28democracy like a white paper on our
6:30agricultural policy and it's not like it
6:32got the most comments like and we but we
6:35could see a guy distribution we could
6:37see in the stats and now if we put out
6:38that exact same content it's crickets
6:41the only stuff that gets distribution
6:42now is like extreme polarizing divisive
6:45content
6:46is that because people react to it
6:48the shortest more and more quick the
6:50shortest path to a click is anger
6:54and and this is something that's being
6:56scientifically proven over and over and
6:59over again and this is something that
7:00facebook knows so we've known from
7:02independent researchers for 60 or 70
7:04years that you know human brains are are
7:07evolved to pay attention to threats so
7:10we're drawn in for extreme content we're
7:12always kind of surveying the savannah
7:15but even facebook has known for years
7:18that the angrier the comment thread the
7:21more likely you are to go back to a
7:23publisher's website so if i was a
7:24publisher and all i saw was like how
7:26much traffic was coming from facebook i
7:28would see the angrier stuff i write the
7:30more traffic ends up on my website i can
7:32make more money off that content on
7:34facebook's side they could see the
7:36angrier common thread the more likely
7:38that content gets reshared
7:39right people are drawn into extreme
7:41content is that equally distributed i
7:44mean are we all
7:46uh being targeted with this
7:48disinformation or with this hate uh
7:51uh content so so one of the things
7:53that's important for us to understand
7:54about how algorithms work is algorithms
7:56are always scanning for your
7:57vulnerabilities and they don't show all
8:00of us the same content so in the case of
8:02things like coveted misinformation
8:04eighty percent of all the covered
8:06misinformation only went to about four
8:07percent of the population
8:09hold on eighty percent of all the copied
8:11misinformation
8:13in the united states went to around four
8:14percent of the population yes so they're
8:16feeding fuel to the fire yeah so it's
8:18one of these things where uh you know if
8:20you think of it this way like average
8:21person probably didn't see that much
8:23covered misinformation they saw some but
8:25for the part the part of the population
8:26that was in that four percent
8:28post after post after post that they saw
8:30was like their children were in danger
8:32and it's a very rational response if
8:34everything you're seeing is your child
8:36is in danger wouldn't you show up and
8:37scream at a school board meeting
8:39wouldn't you threaten a teacher if
8:40that's all you saw
8:42and it actually changes the dominant
8:44narrative on who's subject to this
8:45information and why are they reacting
8:47the way they do exactly
8:49in a way it helps us
8:52build more empathy yeah towards these
8:54groups right
8:55it's yeah i think some people hopefully
8:57some people uh blame the victim when it
8:59comes to misinformation and
9:00disinformation they say like oh they're
9:02so foolish for falling for that but the
9:04reality is if you are in the crosshairs
9:07of the algorithm if you're getting fed
9:08the content fed the content fed the
9:10content you know advertisers have known
9:12for years like if you say something to
9:14someone seven times nine times they
9:16begin to believe it right it's it's a
9:18very reasonable thing even inside of
9:20facebook they did studies where they
9:22exposed facebook employees to
9:23misinformation and even facebook
9:25employees it doesn't matter if you're an
9:26ivy league graduate you fall for
9:28misinformation
9:29and and i think this applies perfectly
9:31to some of the misconceptions on
9:33spanish language audiences latinos in
9:36the u.s and
9:37the view that well maybe they're
9:39they're more prone to be victims of this
9:42information because they're
9:43not sophisticated sophisticated
9:46consumers of information or not
9:48well-educated um is that accurate
9:51i think it's uh very i think it's very
9:54dangerous to blame the victim when it
9:55comes to misinformation like i said
9:56before if facebook employees are
9:59fall victim to misinformation i think we
10:01probably shouldn't assume that anyone is
10:03safe
10:04but the secondary thing is we need to
10:05remember that not everyone gets targeted
10:07with the same volume of misinformation
10:09that people who run influence operations
10:12people like russia china other countries
10:14sometimes even state actors and excuse
10:16me actors inside the united states you
10:18know they go after populations that are
10:20valuable like they're looking for fault
10:22lines they're looking for people who um
10:25maybe don't have other sources of media
10:27in the case of spanish language sources
10:29if you knew that spanish language media
10:31was under invested in
10:33now someone can't even check they can't
10:35even fact check it because there's not
10:37the same access to other sources of
10:38media so like it happens always with
10:42these very complex situations it's not
10:44just one oh yeah one thing that's that's
10:46that's making and causing this um
10:49the the type of targeting that we saw of
10:51latinos in the 2020 election with this
10:53information and and and that we're
10:55seeing now
10:56uh
10:57as we get closer to the 2022 midterms so
11:00part of why latinos got targeted in 20
11:02in 2020 is you know a large chunk of
11:05latinos are swing voters right they're
11:07they don't they they're they're tempted
11:09on both sides
11:10and uh the nature of how modern
11:13campaigns are run is you want to find
11:15the voters that are the most likely to
11:17push over the edge and so it's this
11:18question of not all communities get
11:20targeted with the same amount of
11:21misinformation because they're not
11:22equally electorally valuable and we were
11:24talking backstage about
11:27how these platforms became global and
11:29they operate globally but they're not
11:32necessarily at least not when it comes
11:34to the business model and and profits
11:36yes they have a
11:37global view of the business right of
11:39scale but
11:41when it comes to safety there's a
11:42different approach to things
11:44and
11:46inside of facebook a huge amount of
11:48attention goes into making sure the
11:50platforms are accessible in terms of
11:51things like how good is your internet
11:53connection how good is your phone it
11:55doesn't matter if you're on a slow
11:56internet connection or you don't have
11:58the latest phone they're going to figure
11:59out how to be inclusive and make sure
12:01you can use the platform but when it
12:02comes to languages
12:04because safety systems are expenses
12:07there's not an equal investment in
12:09systems that aren't english when they're
12:11trying to decide like should we support
12:12this language should we support this
12:13language how many moderators should we
12:15have per language they put a huge amount
12:17of investment in english because they
12:19don't want americans to know
12:22that facebook is a dangerous product in
12:23other countries because we would step in
12:25and force them to spend more money on
12:27safety
12:28when it came to things like hate speech
12:30we have a document from 2019 where 57 of
12:33hate speech speech budget was spent on
12:35english even though about nine percent
12:37of users were english speakers but more
12:39money was getting spent on german for
12:41hate speech than on spanish and the only
12:43reason you would do that is because you
12:45know germany was pushing for reform in
12:47europe so they fear accountability they
12:50fear accountability
12:51and and unfortunately that only happens
12:53in
12:54the places where they're based
12:56or in the places where
12:59you know they're actually working to
13:01hold them accountable like in this case
13:03germany but i think there's a big
13:05opportunity which is like germany
13:06understands that they play a leadership
13:07role in the european union and they can
13:09push for european union style regulation
13:12we could work on building a coalition of
13:14central american south american
13:16caribbean countries and saying guess
13:17what spanish language speakers deserve
13:19to be just as safe as english speakers
13:22and remember the year uh the uk passed a
13:25law last summer so there's only 65
13:27million people that live in the uk they
13:29passed a children's rights bill that
13:30said hey you need to do safety by design
13:32for kids like kids have different needs
13:34than adults you need to acknowledge
13:35those needs
13:37and it was so strange the week that that
13:38law went to effect instagram passed a
13:41whole bunch of changes
13:42right suddenly they weren't going to let
13:43you target ads like kids under the age
13:45of 16. it's like i wonder why they did
13:47it the week the law went into effect and
13:49so if we think about it that way you
13:51know we can put together a coalition of
13:53100 100 million people we're in south
13:55america and central america the
13:57caribbean
13:58and you and we can actually push for
14:00meaningful changes because facebook
14:02brings up their platforms to the floor
14:04of whatever law is the bottom and
14:06francis the way we use facebook and
14:08social media in general here in the u.s
14:11would suggest that that we're focusing
14:13too much on on meta we've been calling
14:16it facebook
14:17we've been you know we focused too much
14:19on them but it's it's just one
14:21alternative is
14:23our choice to use facebook or anything
14:25anything else
14:28i've been to places in in latin america
14:30rural mexico places across central
14:32america where facebook is the internet
14:35even the phones people have access to
14:37they don't have a data plan but they
14:38have access to facebook
14:40um one of the things uh one of the
14:42reasons why i get up every morning why i
14:43travel so much is uh most people who
14:46live in the united states most people
14:48live in europe are unaware that there
14:49are a billion or a billion and a half
14:51people in the world who fall into that
14:52bucket where facebook is the internet
14:55that because facebook went into those
14:57societies and said hey
14:59we're going to buy the right to be the
15:00internet in your country
15:02we're going to subsidize enough people's
15:04data you know if you use if you use
15:05facebook your data is free if you use
15:07anything else on the open web you have
15:08to pay for it yourself
15:10they did that for enough people that it
15:12became disinvi disadvantageous for
15:15businesses to have their own websites
15:17for news newspapers to have their own
15:19websites that the facebook became
15:21interested and the thing that i worry
15:22about is that we can look at things like
15:24the rise of tick tock in the united
15:25states and say like oh people are opting
15:27out of facebook like does it really
15:29matter the kids don't use facebook
15:30anymore but the reality is as long as
15:32those network effects are in place as
15:35long as the internet equals facebook for
15:37a billion or a billion and a half people
15:38we can't we can't just forget about that
15:40we can't leave it behind and i was
15:42referencing your interview on 60 minutes
15:44last year and
15:45i also remember the over six hours of
15:47testimony you you gave in congress
15:50and it reminds me of you know the
15:52whistleblowers in industries like
15:54tobacco and pharma
15:55and
15:57i know
15:59change happens at a glacier base right
16:01so slow sometimes
16:03but but there was change after we saw
16:06people come forward and you know say
16:08tobacco companies know that smoking is
16:10bad for your health and they've been
16:11hiding this um we saw that with pharma
16:14we've seen it with other industries
16:16are you seeing that type of change in in
16:18after your testimony and and the
16:21revelations you you made public
16:23um it's so it's so interesting there's a
16:25lot of people who were have been
16:27so hungry for changing social media for
16:29years you know these are activists these
16:31are academics these are researchers
16:32who've been who've been documenting the
16:34harms for years and when they saw the
16:36kind of tsunami of press coverage in the
16:38fall they're like oh finally the
16:40reckoning has come
16:41and it's it a thing that can be hard is
16:43you know after the wave crashes it can
16:46seem like did anything happen
16:49but the reality is these kinds of
16:51changes
16:52that wave is just the beginning
16:54and we've already seen some amazing
16:56steps forward so for example the fact
16:58that there is a bill actively being
17:00discussed in the senate that is
17:01bipartisan on children's privacy and
17:03children's rights online that would have
17:05been unheard of a year ago in europe the
17:07digital services act so that's the first
17:09law that says the public has the right
17:11to ask independent questions and get
17:13independent answers from social media
17:15we've never had that right before
17:16anywhere in the world that passed for
17:18the first time a month ago and they've
17:19been trying to pass it for five years
17:21and so these are the first little
17:23glimmers of i like to think of like a
17:25sea change like we're
17:27we're seeing
17:29a new conversation the era of just trust
17:31us is over
17:33and what we build off of that new
17:35platform that's that's going to be a
17:37really exciting phase do you think that
17:39the events of january 6 had anything to
17:42do with with the needle moving a little
17:44more forward
17:45are people more conscious of the fact
17:47that there's also democratic backsliding
17:48happening in the u.s and not just in
17:50places like the western hemisphere
17:53i think a lot of people were very
17:54shocked when my when when um the
17:57documents in my disclosures
17:59were released
18:00or we became more more known
18:03because it became apparent that january
18:066th
18:07facebook did not meet their own
18:10duty of care for january 6. so going
18:13into the november 2020 election facebook
18:15had gone and itemized you know 45 things
18:18like little tiny product changes like
18:20settings individual settings where they
18:22would say like you know we keep having
18:24this problem where people will broadcast
18:26their suicides or murders on on facebook
18:29live
18:30like we cannot control this product
18:33maybe on election day we shouldn't be
18:35like amplifying it to everyone and their
18:36mother like instead of amplifying those
18:39scores like 850 times maybe we should
18:41only amplify them by like 65 times you
18:43know little changes like that so it's
18:45not like saying ideas are good or ideas
18:46are bad it's like how should the
18:47products be working
18:49you know on election day facebook said
18:51our product and its baseline state is
18:53dangerous we're gonna turn it back a
18:55little bit we're gonna make it a little
18:56we're gonna turn down the heat a little
18:57bit
18:58because they dissolved the part of the
19:00company that was responsible
19:03for saying oh we've we're not in
19:05business as usual this is a crisis they
19:07dissolved the part of the company civic
19:09integrity that was supposed to be
19:10keeping us safe they dissolved that the
19:12first week in december
19:14and so it didn't matter that a lot of
19:16people were writing about in the press
19:18something's about to happen like for a
19:19couple weeks before january 6 there was
19:21there were a number of articles about it
19:23no one at facebook was on deck to say
19:25okay we need to spin up the war room we
19:28need to you know turn the temperature
19:29down a little bit
19:30and what's what's amazing is even the
19:32difference between january 6 and january
19:347th at 5 pm eastern time on january 6th
19:37none of those safety measures were on
19:39by the same time the next day
19:4180 percent of them were on so they could
19:43have turned them on easily
19:45but literally they were asleep at the
19:46wheel and i don't want to fall into a
19:48cliche but it's scary to think that
19:51that facebook has the power to
19:53turn the volume up or down on our you
19:55know rhetoric and and our public
19:58uh dialogue
20:00so to be clear like things i'm talking
20:01about there are not about picking good
20:03and bad ideas it's things like um you
20:05know should you have to click on a link
20:06to reshare it a system where you don't
20:09have to click on links before you
20:10re-share them that's a system that runs
20:12hotter right because even taking a
20:14moment to pause and like reflect and be
20:16like do i really want to share this
20:18that radically decreases misinformation
20:20it's like 10 to 15 percent so there's
20:22little changes i was talking about or
20:23things like that like um if a group
20:26um uh
20:27is using a huge amount of hate speech
20:30um
20:31maybe you should uh prioritize like
20:33actually looking at that content sooner
20:35yeah right little little things like
20:36that
20:37and we've talked a lot about meta but
20:39they're also facebook owned companies
20:41like instagram and whatsapp and whatsapp
20:44seems to be a particularly interesting
20:45case with latinos and people in latin
20:47america because it's a point of
20:48connection between the two uh audiences
20:51and and because it's a a
20:54different
20:55operation than social media right it's
20:56just instant messaging encrypted uh chat
20:59rooms
21:00um
21:01latinos are using whatsapp i was looking
21:04at the stats at a way higher rate than
21:07any other social media platform or
21:09instant messaging app
21:11i think it was around 32 million
21:13latinos in the u.s are going to use
21:15whatsapp this year
21:17that's half of the latino population
21:20actively using and sharing and
21:22consuming information and content on
21:24whatsapp how do you regulate those uh
21:27especially with concerns about user
21:29privacy so i am a strong advocate that
21:31um end-to-end encrypted messaging is an
21:33important thing my my dominant form of
21:35social media is signal so i have a bunch
21:37of big group chats that are where my
21:38friends hang out um
21:41i used to work on counter espionage at
21:43facebook so we were actively looking at
21:46nation state actors who were doing
21:47things like
21:49iran would catfish israeli soldiers or
21:52china would send malware to um uyghur
21:55refugees to try to compromise their
21:57phones to spy on their communities so
21:59there's this question of like you know
22:01we were about to do the transit or we
22:02were discussing the transition of should
22:04we take messenger to be end-to-end
22:06encrypted
22:07so
22:08one strategy for that is to say okay
22:10it's all behind the encrypted veil we
22:11can do nothing
22:13another is to step in and say okay like
22:14if we were going to think about whatsapp
22:17as a platform and that platform could
22:19have applications in it so like in in
22:21china you know wechat has lots of
22:23applications in it um imagine if there
22:26was an app where you know when a link
22:28came in we said do you want to scan this
22:30for malware
22:32right we can do things that allow people
22:34to have choices you know if they want to
22:36keep that container pristine and say no
22:39no i don't want anyone looking at my
22:40files you're going to say that but but
22:42coming in and saying how could we give
22:43people better choices how could we help
22:45them make good choices that's a
22:47different way of approaching design and
22:49so we shouldn't think of this as an
22:50either or like we can either have
22:51privacy or we can have safety we need to
22:53think about like what are the needs of
22:54people and how can we use software to
22:55meet those needs
22:56from what you're saying i i i read that
22:59when we hold these platforms accountable
23:01and when we ask them to be
23:03mindful of of of how they approach these
23:06communities
23:08it's it's much more productive than than
23:10just asking them to take one or two
23:12steps to make
23:13the experience safer but it's just a
23:16constant reminder that they have to
23:17address these communities with dignity
23:19with more care with more focus so
23:22imagine if we came in and said hey we
23:24know that because
23:26our communities are so depending on
23:27what's up we need to actually sit down
23:29and articulate like what are the current
23:31harms that are happening we want to
23:33co-create with you around like what
23:35would need to be done to support people
23:36on those harms the reality is all those
23:38things are expenses
23:40and so
23:41right like it did
23:42some of them might increase usage they
23:44might make a little bit more money but
23:45but they cost money and um uh we need to
23:48shift the relationship with we have with
23:50these platforms where it shouldn't be a
23:51thing where if they do anything we feel
23:53grateful we're like oh thank you you
23:55thought about spanish it should be a
23:56thing of saying no no no like there's a
23:58billion spanish speaker speakers in the
24:00world
24:01we need to show you every we need you to
24:03show us every month
24:05what are the new things this month you
24:06did to make us safer
24:08right what did you do this month to show
24:10us that you value our dignity and treat
24:12us with respect
24:13um
24:14you were sharing some numbers on on the
24:18the relation between how much the
24:20platforms invest in this case facebook
24:21invests on policing content in english
24:24as opposed to what they do in spanish
24:26you talked about this in congress too
24:28and and the difference is staggering
24:30it's something like uh nine percent of
24:32all users eight to nine percent of all
24:34users are english speakers
24:36and uh
24:37eighty percent of the resources
24:39in it's more than that for for um for
24:42misinformation when you look at their
24:44operational budget so this is things
24:46like moderators fact checkers
24:48the people who work in the factories who
24:50you know make sure the content is safe
24:5287 of that operational budget in 2020
24:55was spent on english
24:56and 13 was spent on rest of world
25:00right and
25:02out of every ten dollars they spend on
25:04this one goes to rest of the world yeah
25:06nine stays in the us
25:08english speaking audiences um and for
25:10for contrast there's a thing called
25:11brand safety which is basically like
25:13advertisers don't like their ads next to
25:15unpleasant content
25:17only nine percent of that budget got
25:18spent on english
25:20so they have to recognize that in a
25:22global audience
25:24there's not one dominant language and
25:26that shouldn't be the metric
25:27so i think it's one of these things so
25:29there's you know we take one look at
25:30this and say facebook doesn't value
25:32non-english speakers there's another way
25:34to approach this and say
25:36facebook started out as a product almost
25:39exclusively for english speakers right
25:41it was it was written for ivy league
25:42kids to hang out with each other that's
25:44right um
25:45they made bets on safety strategies and
25:48ways of thinking about safety where then
25:51they had four languages then they had 10
25:53languages and they had 20 languages you
25:56know they they think about it in ways
25:58that don't really scale to a world that
26:00has thousands of languages and it
26:02doesn't acknowledge the fact that the
26:04most fragile places in the world often
26:06places where facebook is the internet
26:08are often the most linguistically
26:09diverse
26:10so when we look at things like there was
26:12an ethnic violence incident in ethiopia
26:14last year that was and the year before
26:16that that was made worse by social media
26:19um
26:20ethiopia has 120 million people they
26:22speak
26:23something like 95 dialects they fall
26:25into kind of six major language families
26:27facebook was only supporting two of
26:29those language families and probably
26:30only a very very tiny subset of the
26:32dialects
26:33and so they're just not designed like
26:35they're not there they haven't kind of
26:37broken that mold yet and said no no we
26:38have to think about these cross-language
26:40safety systems right when you require
26:43someone to click on a link before you
26:44re-share it that works in every language
26:47in the world even if the language is
26:48only spoken by only by a million people
26:51and uh i i shared with you that i've
26:53been working on on a story about this
26:55information on latinos for cbs news and
26:57some of the people i've spoken with
26:58they're like but why are you doing this
27:00story like you're in the media you're
27:02always you know exaggerating things the
27:05scale of the problem has not reached a
27:07critical mass
27:08there's no cause and effect when you
27:10talk about erosion of democratic order
27:12or endangering public health because
27:15this information is in the in the
27:17universe of information it's just a tiny
27:20part of
27:21everything that people are consuming and
27:24and
27:25you know i look at public health
27:26especially the issue of vaccination and
27:28latinos in the u.s or i look at other
27:30examples and i'm like well that
27:32certainly doesn't seem to be the case
27:33when you when you talk to people uh what
27:36is your experience in that is is there a
27:37real cause and effect here or are we
27:39exaggerating things and
27:42i do want to defend one latinos and
27:43vaccination thing i live in puerto rico
27:45and we were the most vaccinated place in
27:46the united states so yeah i want to rep
27:49puerto rico
27:50um but uh the
27:52um so like we talked about before four
27:55percent of the population gets eighty
27:57percent of the vaccine or in the united
27:58states four percent of the population
28:00got eighty percent of the code
28:01misinformation right and it and it
28:03didn't like just make them not get
28:04vaccinated it caused them to show up and
28:07scream at school board meetings
28:09right in the case of the the january
28:12sixth riots you know q anon when you go
28:15and read through q a naught it sounds it
28:16sounds crazy but if you are in a rabbit
28:19hole that the algorithm pushed you
28:21towards and everything you see i'll give
28:24you a quick example on q anon you know
28:26q1 happened because facebook had safety
28:29limits that if they had had to publish
28:32them openly or even publish them to the
28:34government i don't think they would have
28:35ever said right so instead of saying hey
28:38you can invite a thousand people a data
28:40groups across all of facebook they said
28:43oh you can you can invite a couple
28:44thousand people per group but if you
28:46have 30 groups that's cool
28:49and so the top person who invited people
28:51to q and groups invited you know 200 000
28:53people or 300 000 people over the course
28:55of a couple weeks
28:57it's it's like very sensible things did
28:59not happen and so it meant that they
29:01were able to pull people in and the
29:02algorithm was like oh these groups are
29:04very very engaging engaged
29:06um i'll give you another example um
29:09for kids this is kind of amazing go look
29:12at the recommended accounts for your
29:13child
29:14like at this point i've done this i
29:16don't know a handful of times under 10
29:17times but like more than three um
29:20they're always the same they're either
29:22these things called confidential
29:24accounts they'll be be
29:26someone will have an anonymous form
29:28so you can submit really mean gossip
29:31or lies about another child in the
29:32school and it gets blasted out the whole
29:34school
29:35or there'll be a fight club where kids
29:37will pick anonymous fights i learned
29:39about this from the principal of my high
29:40school
29:41kids can go and pick a fight with
29:43another kid and their friend will film
29:44it and they'll post it on the account
29:46and he's asked instagram to take this
29:48down over and over again
29:50the total fraction of content that the
29:51kids in the school saw that were fights
29:53is very very small but for every kid who
29:55gets their arm broken because some kid
29:57picked a fight with them
29:59or like push them down the stairs to
30:01film them or to embarrass them we're
30:03just to blackmail them kids are now
30:05doing things like shaming like
30:06embarrassing kids filming it and then
30:08blackmailing each other
30:10like those little things really tear our
30:12society apart it makes kids scared it
30:15makes adults scared and like it doesn't
30:17matter if it only impacts a few
30:18percentage points of people if you're
30:20afraid it's gonna happen to you
30:23you use that term tearing societies
30:24apart and and i've heard you use that
30:26term in the past
30:28has
30:29has meta facebook done anything to
30:31change that to correct that and and how
30:34i mean is there any
30:35sort of independent effort to verify
30:37that
30:38so there are third parties that are
30:40starting to do adversarial data
30:42acquisition on facebook and the reason
30:44why we have to use words like
30:45adversarial is facebook actively does
30:47not want to be studied right and until
30:49the digital services act was passed and
30:51it hasn't gone to effect yet you know it
30:52allegedly goes in effect january 1st
30:54we'll see if facebook complies even then
30:57um
30:58we have been reliant on people for to
31:01try to pull bits of data off of facebook
31:03because none of us actually gets to see
31:05a representative portrait of what's
31:07happening online
31:08so when facebook comes out and says we
31:11have gotten better in xyz way
31:14until they start posting substantially
31:17more data about how their systems work
31:18we can't trust them and i'll give you a
31:20specific example back in december they
31:22announced we have changed how our
31:25moderation systems work
31:27and you know we they didn't say we heard
31:28francis we're going to support more
31:30languages
31:31but they came out and said we're going
31:32to support 100 languages now and because
31:34we changed this architecture into 100.
31:36but they never showed us the performance
31:38of those systems they never gave us
31:40samples and said this is what the system
31:42believes is terrorist content this is
31:44what it believes is not terrorist
31:45content
31:46and that's a core problem like the
31:48facebook's own documents said that in
31:50the case of terrorism versus
31:52counter-terrorism content
31:5475 of counter-terrorism content was
31:57getting labeled as terrorism content and
31:58taken down
32:00because it's very subtle the difference
32:02between those things so until facebook
32:04actually publishes data on the
32:06performance of these systems we can't
32:07trust them
32:08and that's the fundamental issue without
32:10transparency we cannot have
32:11accountability i think we painted a very
32:14comprehensive and green picture of
32:16what's happening right now i can give a
32:17pep talk at the end
32:20please please nobody i'm used to this
32:22it's okay i i i guess my question is
32:24what happened
32:25like what happened to this promise of of
32:28of social media revolution
32:30revolutionizing the world bringing
32:32democracy and and and and democratic
32:34values to every corner of the world like
32:37sure there was a conversation about that
32:39not too long ago i remember i remember
32:402010 the arab spring
32:43in places like egypt and libya and this
32:46is the power of social media and and we
32:48were all so hopeful about that
32:50what happened
32:51so i think the thing to remember i am
32:54not against social media like if we had
32:56social media that was like what we had
32:58in 2008 that social media was about our
33:00family and our friends
33:02i would not be sitting before you today
33:04facebook has run experiments where all
33:06they do is give you more content you
33:08consented to and less content you did
33:10not consent to and for free you got less
33:12hate speech less violence less nudity
33:14because the problem is not your friends
33:16and it's not your family it's that
33:18facebook pushed you into groups that you
33:19never wanted to join that had millions
33:21and millions of people and then only
33:23gave you a tiny sliver of the content of
33:24those groups that was biased towards the
33:26most extreme content
33:28so you know back in 2010 we had
33:30something that was much closer to
33:32something that was about our family and
33:33friends
33:34but facebook had to make more money
33:35every single quarter they had to keep us
33:37on there at more every single quarter i
33:40always like to joke
33:41the problem with facebook is that your
33:43family and friends let facebook down
33:45right that there used to be this is how
33:48much content you viewed on facebook in
33:492008 and every quarter they need you to
33:52look at a little bit more and your
33:53family friends didn't keep producing
33:55more and more so they had to figure out
33:56other sources of it
33:58and you know i i really believe that
34:00there will probably be something that's
34:02like a web 3 social media
34:04facebook like site that's going to come
34:05along that's going to be owned by its
34:07users
34:08decentralized yeah it will probably be
34:10decentralized and um and because it'll
34:12be owned by its users if we had all
34:13gotten a vote in 2008 i don't think we
34:15would have ever gotten to where we are
34:16today
34:18but because facebook and particularly
34:19mark zuckerberg because he has all the
34:21votes he has all the shirts all the vote
34:23cheers um
34:25we've been living in mark's world
34:26instead of in our world
34:28and you know one day i think we're going
34:30to have something that's closer to what
34:32we had before and and that's what i want
34:33to focus the last part of our
34:34conversation on what's ahead and
34:36solutions too
34:38hopefully uh to to leave people on an
34:40optimistic uh note
34:43one example of of action i think it's
34:46interesting is what's happening one of
34:47our co-hosts today with with eckies uh
34:50they just announced that they raised 80
34:52million dollars to create the latino
34:53media network exciting yeah that's i
34:55actually actually think
34:57i think that's always invest in high
34:58quality media and and latinas women who
35:01who were able to raise this money at
35:02this capital to to buy a radio station
35:06group
35:07and and just to create content for for
35:08latinos in the us
35:10uh i guess my question is is is that a
35:12way to combat this information
35:15targeted at a particular
35:17segment of the population just
35:19ownership more diverse ownership where
35:21decisions are not being taken in a room
35:23where you know people are not
35:24represented i do think it's important
35:26like one thing i always recommend is
35:28that people
35:29try to try to subscribe to at least one
35:32source of media that you really trust
35:33you know it's only things where we
35:34really have to put our dollars where our
35:36values are
35:37um and we need to have media that that
35:40follows our communities that is that
35:41reflects our communities and so i'm
35:43really glad that they're investing more
35:45in spanish language media
35:47the secondary thing is together we are
35:49wiser than we are alone
35:51so a huge part of influence operations
35:53is about preying on our vulnerabilities
35:56a lot of the dangers on these algorithms
35:58are about our specific vulnerabilities
36:00to rabbit holes um i i have a number of
36:03group chats where we digest the news so
36:06my favorite one is called doom news
36:09you know it's very descriptive it's
36:11mostly about war sometimes it's about
36:13famine you know happy topics but but it
36:15means that like we don't i don't sit and
36:17like see something on the ukraine
36:18conflict and evaluate it by myself we
36:20talk about it we say does it sound
36:22plausible and and like this is how
36:24communities have traditionally processed
36:26information and one of the things that i
36:28really worry about about some of the
36:29trends happening in society is that we
36:31are erode more and more of our
36:33infrastructure for connecting in person
36:36you know fewer people go to church we
36:38don't have bowling leagues interacting
36:40in person is expensive we don't pay for
36:42community centers
36:44and you know if we can't have real life
36:47community that helps us process that
36:49information at a minimum have a group
36:50chat that helps you sift through the
36:53information you see about the world
36:54because it is complicated it's going to
36:56get more complicated with time
36:58and i only brought up my phone because
37:00you also have a very unique uh tweeting
37:02system where your mom edits your tweets
37:04well she writes
37:05my mom right the latest one is that's
37:08okay
37:08we turn to social media for connection
37:10and understanding
37:11we have that we can have that again
37:14it won't happen by accident we need to
37:16design our systems to amplify and favor
37:18real connection yes your mom edited this
37:20she edited it out do you mind if i use
37:22your mom for my twitch sure yeah well
37:24she's she's crazy she's pretty genius um
37:26yeah so the thing i if i if i could have
37:28a moment to give a an optimistic endnote
37:30please
37:31so
37:32you know the thing that um i really
37:34believe we all need to study history
37:35more because like history is not just
37:37you know about preventing mistakes it
37:39also is meant to give us a grounding
37:42it's meant to remind us that things can
37:44be bad now and and guess what we've done
37:47this before right you know um every
37:50single time we've invented a new form of
37:51media it's been super disruptive super
37:54disruptive the printing press not
37:56actually that disruptive because no one
37:58could read
37:59you know so it took something like 60 or
38:0170 years before martin luther came along
38:03and was like three percent of germans
38:05can read that's unacceptable everyone
38:07must learn to read the bible we're going
38:09to even teach women to read that's how
38:11much we need to teach people to read and
38:13unfortunately it also unleashed the
38:15first era of misinformation you had
38:17people writing pamphlets on how your
38:19your neighbors were witches and you
38:20should burn them
38:21right like how do you evaluate if your
38:23neighbor's a witch six six six ways to
38:25tell um like like right now right now
38:29yeah um when it came to cheap newspapers
38:31excuse me cheap printing presses
38:32newspapers we literally fought wars
38:35right hundreds of thousands of people
38:37died over misinformation and we came
38:39back and said we're going to develop
38:40journalistic ethics we're going to
38:41develop journalism schools we're going
38:43to have transparency rules on leadership
38:44media ownership
38:46same thing with radio and cinema
38:48dictators rose to power and drove world
38:51war ii based on being extremely good at
38:53radio extremely good at cinema tv same
38:56kind of thing
38:57this happens over and over again
39:00and it feels overwhelming right now
39:02because it is our burden to deal with
39:05you know you feel overwhelmed right now
39:07because this is our time to shine
39:10and we're going to do this but until we
39:12wrestle with it until we push for
39:14something that actually works it's going
39:16to feel a little chaotic because we are
39:17in that unknown zone but we've done it
39:19before and we're going to do it again so
39:21i have faith in you because we can do
39:23this
39:24yeah i couldn't find a better way to end
39:27our conversation thank you so much
39:29francis
39:32and thank you so much for putting up
39:33with me for the past two hours let me
39:35ask you all these questions thank you
39:37everyone we'll take a little break and
39:38we'll be right back
39:51you

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