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Matt Taibbi: How the Left lost its mind — Transcript

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0:00Elon Musk spoon fed you his
0:02cherry-picked information which you must
0:05have suspected promotes a slanted
0:06viewpoint or at the very least generates
0:09another right-wing conspiracy theory
0:10this isn't just a matter of what data
0:12was given to these so-called journalists
0:14before us now my name is Matt taibi I'm
0:17not a so-called journalist I've won the
0:19national magazine award the I have stone
0:21award for independent journalism and
0:23I've written 10 books including four New
0:25York Times bestsellers before Matt taibi
0:28was sparring with Democratic members of
0:30Congress on Capitol Hill earlier this
0:32year over the Twitter files he was a
0:34darling of the progressive left
0:36appearing regularly on shows like
0:38democracy Now Bill Moyers and Rachel
0:41Maddow Matt taibi his new article for
0:44Rolling Stone magazine why isn't Wall
0:46Street in jail the Bush Administration
0:49these are people some of the people
0:50these they're some of the greatest Liars
0:52in the history of politics and even they
0:54couldn't come up with a connection
0:55between Al-Qaeda and and Saddam Hussein
0:58though he was always a fierce crit of
1:00the democratic establishment the rise of
1:02Donald Trump suddenly meant that anyone
1:04nominally left of center even
1:06Progressive journalists like taibi were
1:09expected to support Hillary Clinton
1:11unconditionally so when he attacked her
1:13as a sellout argued that the russiagate
1:16narrative was mostly [ __ ] and
1:18equated the manipulative tactics of both
1:21right and left media personalities he
1:23found himself cold-shouldered by
1:24progressives and Democrats started
1:27treating him like a puppet for the right
1:29do you think it's a legitimate objective
1:32of the FBI to stop foreign interference
1:35in our elections I think it's the
1:37legitimate objective to stop actual
1:39foreign interference okay
1:41I mean I don't know what the difference
1:43is but that's fine in 2020 taibi started
1:46publishing his work on substack and
1:49quickly became one of the platform's
1:50most popular writers earning far more
1:53Revenue than he ever did at Rolling
1:55Stone
1:55yourself posted on your your
1:59um I guess it's kind of like a web page
2:00and don't quite understand what substack
2:02is but it became even more of a parai by
2:05publishing exhaustive reports that
2:07documented extensive governmental
2:09interference seeking to control what was
2:12said on Twitter about covid-19 and
2:15efforts by Russia to influence U.S
2:17elections Congressional Democrats
2:19pilloried him as a fake journalist a
2:22Putin apologist and a stooge for Elon
2:25Musk it's quite obvious that you've
2:26profited from the Twitter files it's
2:29probably a wash honestly didn't you
2:31consider Mr must to be the direct source
2:33of all this no now you're you're trying
2:36to get me to say that he is the source I
2:38I I well
2:40he's a journalist and he can't because
2:43either musk is the source and he can't
2:44talk about it or musk is not the source
2:46and if musk is not the source then he
2:49can discuss no one has yielded the
2:50gentle lady's out of order but he said
2:52is he's not going to reveal his source
2:54and the fact that Democrats are
2:55pressuring
2:58reason caught up with taibi at Freedom
3:01Fest in annual Gathering help this year
3:03in Memphis to talk about the new
3:05challenges to free speech white Legacy
3:07Media is dying and how identity politics
3:10are poisoning political discourse
3:17Matt taibi thanks for talking to reason
3:20so great to talk to you again nick uh so
3:23let's talk about the Twitter files first
3:25when you went into the you know kind of
3:29sealed room and things like that what
3:31were you expecting to find
3:34not much
3:36um
3:37I went into the Twitter files with a
3:40very old school
3:42um Antiquated kind of First Amendment
3:45conception of what we might find or you
3:50know or what questions we might answer
3:52we discussed with Twitter's management
3:55the idea of focusing on the suppression
3:59of the hunter Biden story mainly because
4:03um Mark Zuckerberg had given an
4:04interview
4:06uh and had testified before Congress in
4:08which he suggested that the FBI had
4:12tipped him off about that story so I
4:13thought
4:14if there were those kinds of
4:16communications with Twitter this might
4:18be where we found them uh and I wanted
4:21to know what those Communications look
4:24like
4:24uh
4:26as we discovered there we we didn't find
4:28them in that case but we found an
4:31enormous quantity of quantity of them
4:33elsewhere and it turned into a much more
4:36complicated story than I anticipated
4:38does it I mean like does the Twitter
4:41files really is it the final nail in the
4:44coffin of the idea that there is a clean
4:47distinction between the government and
4:49the media you know because that kind of
4:52informed for a long time you know if you
4:54if you think back to like the Pentagon
4:55papers or something it's like well the
4:57New York Times is separate from the
4:59government and it's not communicating in
5:02the way that it seemed like you know in
5:04the Twitter files it's like there are
5:06tons of people at Twitter saying hey FBI
5:08or whatever take a look at this and then
5:10various government actors are saying hey
5:13you really need to look at this and do
5:15something about it
5:17I I would say that it puts the final
5:20nail on the coffin of that narrative I
5:24actually feel guilty for being naive
5:26about that
5:27um again I grew up in the media my
5:30father was you know in television and I
5:32was around newsrooms most of my
5:34childhood the idea that the FBI might
5:37call up and say Hey you might want to
5:40think about not doing this story
5:42that would be crazy I can't I I couldn't
5:45have even imagined an editor or a news
5:47director who would have even taken that
5:50call uh you know in that way and we
5:54found in the Twitter files all kinds of
5:56things that suggested that this
5:58relationship was not only uh tolerated
6:01but that it was ongoing regular and
6:06collusive in a way that was kind of
6:08shocking to me I think what's a specific
6:10example of that a great example of this
6:12was the um the Aspen Institute tabletop
6:17exercise which was technically not set
6:20up by the government
6:22it was set up by the Aspen Institute
6:26which is funded by the government in
6:28collaboration with some
6:31um academic institutions that had been
6:33briefed by the FEC and some government
6:36agencies but they all got together
6:39before the release of the hunter Biden
6:42story they were briefed by current and
6:45former government officials who talked
6:48about the possibility that a hack and
6:51leak story involving Hunter Biden and
6:54barisma might come out and they kind of
6:56war game the possibility of what to do
6:59about that story and then a month later
7:01that story happens now for me
7:05if I had been in that room
7:07and that story actually happened a month
7:10later I would feel obligated to do a
7:12story about that tabletop exercise I
7:15would say hey what a weird coincidence
7:16that this thing happened but these
7:18people had you know an off the Record
7:21arrangement with everybody they were in
7:23the room with and they
7:25um they kept to it they kept quiet and
7:28you know that's a completely new level
7:31of cooperation and coordination that you
7:33know I would never have imagined and I
7:35mean what did I guess did it work or did
7:39it not to suppress the story because
7:41that I mean this is a slightly different
7:43question like was it a Streisand effect
7:45where you know the New York Post
7:47publishes something about Hunter Biden a
7:49couple weeks before the election and
7:50people are like yeah you know it's the
7:52New York Post but then I remember like
7:55going to Twitter when I heard about it
7:56and then it was like you can't link to
7:58it from Twitter or anything and that was
8:01really chilling like that was the first
8:02time I felt I was in like an Orwell
8:04novel or something where it's like what
8:06do you mean like you can't
8:08you can't link to it or discuss it on
8:10Twitter but
8:11you know I mean do you think did it work
8:14first and then let's talk about like why
8:16they thought it might or might not have
8:18I'm not sure I mean I I think that would
8:21be worth studying yeah it would be
8:23interesting to do some surveys about
8:25that and find out
8:27um what the actual impact of that was uh
8:30I think overall in the long run
8:32certainly that story got more attention
8:35um than it would have absent this
8:37however we're also learning uh you know
8:41I think there's more about that story
8:43that's going to come out fairly soon
8:46my understanding is that there are some
8:48depositions that are on underway that
8:50there are things that are happening in
8:51Washington where some of those
8:54committees uh you know that are
8:56oversight committees are still looking
8:57at that issue and the stuff that was on
9:00the laptop because we didn't know a
9:01whole lot when that first story came out
9:03all we knew was that they found the
9:04laptop they didn't know a whole lot
9:06about whether any of those emails were
9:09meaningful
9:11um all we knew was that we had some some
9:13racy looking pictures it was
9:15embarrassing
9:17um but you know it's going to take some
9:19hardcore investigation to to find out
9:22whether there's anything behind that and
9:24that process in many cases takes years
9:28I would just say they probably were
9:30effective installing that you know
9:33um also there's the alternate
9:36um
9:36story where they
9:39told people in mainstream media that
9:42this was Russian disinformation and I
9:44think that was effective with Biden
9:46voters like that story had an effect in
9:50getting people to ignore the idea that
9:51this was anything worth paying attention
9:53to you I mean you obviously kind of
9:55started your career in Russia you know
9:58in in the post-soviet world was this
10:01kind of collusion between the government
10:03and news was that taken for granted
10:05there I mean is this are we looking like
10:08you know Russia and I don't know you
10:10know in the late 90s or something yeah
10:12like 1999 2000 I think that was when you
10:16first started to see directly
10:19um
10:20you know the news stations resembling
10:24um
10:25basically press releases for the Kremlin
10:27in the in the mid to late Yeltsin years
10:30the Press was sort of stratified and
10:33fractured each of the different news
10:35companies was was basically backed by a
10:37different mob and or Mafia interest
10:41um and they all had their own ties to
10:44yelts and but basically you were looking
10:47at the point of view or this or that
10:50oligarch when you watch the news when
10:52Putin came to power one of the first
10:55things he did is he really Consolidated
10:57the media landscape he cracked down on
11:02companies like enteve which is one of
11:04the last Independence stations and he
11:07got it so that there was basically no
11:09dissent in Russian media and it's
11:13beginning to feel a little bit like that
11:14although it's it's not because like if
11:17you you know if if you descend from you
11:20know Biden you're going to start eating
11:21polonium without knowing it right so
11:24right can you discuss us the like what
11:26are the steps that are happening you
11:29know and it's not like against the
11:30media's interest or or against media
11:33actors they're like bringing it on and
11:35Twitter and Facebook was filled with
11:38people who had been in an Administration
11:39then moved there to do like you know
11:41Communications or strategy and it goes
11:44back and forth like how are we getting
11:46to a place where Twitter which you know
11:49its first big Glory was in helping to uh
11:53kind of platform the Arab Spring and
11:55like it was good it was great because it
11:56was anti-government and it was
11:58anti-censorship and now it's you know
12:00[ __ ] like doing the the it's you know
12:03the towel boy for a particular Vision I
12:06don't want to say the Deep state but
12:08like of a Centrist kind of mainstream
12:10ideological politics yeah I think I
12:13think that's right
12:14um there's obviously a huge difference
12:16yeah between what happened in Russia I
12:19mean I I knew people like Anna
12:21polacowska who you know got murdered
12:24under of the Putin regime there were a
12:27couple of others I knew who had had some
12:29pretty unfortunate Fates nobody's
12:31getting shot in their doorway right you
12:33know in the United States but that's
12:35actually one of the more depressing
12:36Parts about our story is that this is
12:38all voluntary what's going on
12:41um the overall The overarching Narrative
12:44that we
12:46um
12:46collectively working on the Twitter
12:49files decided was happening was that
12:53there was a huge
12:55infrastructure that had been built up
12:57for counter proliferation
12:59counter-terrorism within the government
13:02it was aimed at the messaging apparatus
13:05of groups like Isis
13:07to prevent uh you know this successful
13:11recruitment of white kids and Suburban
13:14England and California well when you
13:18know that threat dissipated they moved
13:19over to populism in the United States
13:22and because as you say
13:25Twitter which had been this incredible
13:28Force for you know Anarchy and the you
13:32know the
13:34um irrepressible political urges of the
13:36population and the Arab Spring it kind
13:39of came out again with Trump I mean
13:41Trump bypassed the the ordinary media in
13:452016 and his
13:47um amazing Insight was that I can just
13:51use my own Twitter account and I'll have
13:54much more reach than all of these
13:56different stations combined and I think
13:58that freaked out a lot of people in
14:00power and and what we saw in the Twitter
14:03files essentially was a long
14:06um period of rollback which they
14:09achieved through various different means
14:10did they do that and I realized you you
14:14may not be in a position to uh know but
14:17like did they do that against the wishes
14:19of people like Jack Dorsey and the top
14:22kind of creators of Twitter you know
14:24because there's one one narrative which
14:26is that what's going wrong and kind of
14:28social media companies it's not the
14:30people at the top or who started it but
14:31it's like mid-level managers who are all
14:34like you know what we are good liberal
14:36slash progressives and you know we're
14:39really scared of like America and so we
14:42are going to censor people and you know
14:44Dorsey and these other guys are kind of
14:46walking around the c-suite like Howard
14:48Hughes they don't and they they're like
14:50oh you know we don't have any power I
14:52mean who was who made these kind of
14:54operative decisions
14:57it's funny
14:58um before the first Twitter files I had
15:01one fairly senior Twitter executive joke
15:05to me that Jack Dorsey was more like the
15:07company's spirit animal than its CEO
15:10yeah um I had talked to Jack before I I
15:13like him I think he's uh at heart got a
15:18lot of sympathy for uh Free Speech
15:21principles I think they were important
15:22to him yeah
15:24um but if you look at the Twitter files
15:25you see that he's not in the loop of a
15:28lot of these key decisions the things
15:30that happened
15:32particularly around that one incident
15:35involving the hunter Biden story he was
15:38definitely not involved in that one of
15:40the weird ways that I know about that is
15:42because I have found believe it or not
15:46uh on my first day looking at the
15:48Twitter files that Jack Dorsey had
15:51forwarded to Vijaya God the woman who's
15:54basically running things one of my
15:57articles complaining about
15:59um you know the
16:01censorship of that article
16:04he was definitely a free speech Advocate
16:06but he was not
16:09um he he really wasn't at the helm when
16:11they came to the decision to take Trump
16:14off the platform
16:16um you know I think he was dragged
16:19Kicking and Screaming to that decision
16:20and uh most of the company was was
16:24against him at that point yeah
16:27um with the uh kind of Russia gate or
16:30you know the russiagate narrative is
16:32that the Russians wanted and correct me
16:36or you know massage this into what you
16:39believe you know is that Russia was
16:42proactive they wanted Trump to win and
16:44they were going to end more than that it
16:47was also that the Trump campaign was
16:48actively working with them and that
16:52seemed is that like the hinge point of
16:55like we're gonna look back and there's
16:57like media before
16:592016 and after and how did how did the
17:03Russia gate story spin out because I
17:06mean there have been tons of
17:07congressional investigations and others
17:09and like they've really come up with
17:10nothing in terms of collusion right so
17:13why is it you know why did it get
17:16started and then why is it persisting
17:18after like you know just we got nothing
17:21except you know wish a dream a desire
17:24that it's true
17:26well the Russian gate story oddly enough
17:29became
17:30um sort of involuntarily uh very
17:33important in my life personally I think
17:35it's really the reason I ended up
17:37leaving mainstream media where I was
17:40very happy I had a uh you had the job
17:43everybody wanted right yeah I mean yeah
17:45I mean who doesn't want to be the
17:47campaign reporter for Rolling Stone
17:49magazine right it's like the coolest
17:50thing in the world that's one of the
17:51iconic gigs you can have
17:54um but when the uh the rush kit story
17:57happened as you mentioned there were
18:00really two different story lines one was
18:03that Russia had interfered somehow and
18:05they had a couple of different
18:06inflection points that they were looking
18:08at there was the hack
18:10um dunno was working with Wikileaks and
18:12you know some other things but the more
18:15important narrative that I thought
18:18um they were pushing was this idea of
18:21collusion and I never saw anything that
18:24indicated anything like heart proof for
18:26that and
18:28um I at first all I said I wrote a
18:32couple of various gentle columns in the
18:34beginning saying this looks a little bit
18:37like the wmd mistake where we have an
18:40awful lot of anonymous
18:42State officials who are telling us
18:45things that we can't reproduce in the
18:48laboratory independently there's no way
18:50to check this story right but everybody
18:52was going for it and I think you know
18:55it's as simple as people thought
18:59everything was permitted in pursuit of
19:02getting rid of Donald Trump I mean there
19:04was a very influential article in the
19:07New York Times in August of 2016 called
19:09uh Trump is testing the Norms of
19:11objectivity in journalism and uh the
19:14columnist Jim Rutenberg argued
19:17we can't just be true anymore we have to
19:19be true to history's judgment and so and
19:22that's also great where Trump was uh you
19:26know it's just so weird like everybody's
19:27like he is destroying Norms therefore we
19:30are going to throw over our Norms Pro
19:33preemptively to get rid of him and it's
19:35like okay yeah whatever I mean it like
19:38it worked great in Iraq right preemptive
19:40War preemptive war against Trump has
19:42worked out pretty well
19:44it's like they're incapable of learning
19:46anything you know from any of these
19:48mistakes and and with the Russian gate
19:51thing it was like it was happening in
19:53slow motion the entire time I mean they
19:57kept stepping in it one story after
19:59another and instead of walking it back
20:03or
20:05um you know re-examining the evidence uh
20:09they would double down they would say
20:11what I realize this is you know asking
20:14us psychologize but like why was why
20:17were mainstream people and it's you know
20:20mostly it's kind of like liberal
20:21Centrist liberals uh Legacy Media types
20:25but also you know I don't know like
20:27people in newer Publications like they
20:30wanted that to be true and it was like
20:32I'm old enough to remember reruns of I
20:35Dream of Jeannie or like Three's Company
20:37where it's like every week Mr Roper is
20:39finally going to catch Jack Tripper in a
20:42homosexual tryst and that would never
20:44happen yeah and like you know Dr Bellas
20:46is you know this time he's got Tony down
20:48to rights and it's like it never
20:50happened and you would think
20:5215 times in you'd be like yeah maybe I
20:54you know let's write a different plot
20:56right right exactly you still enjoy the
20:59show though yeah that's true that's true
21:01right yeah and and
21:03um you know and they're still doing it
21:05right they are still doing it uh if you
21:08go back and look you could see why it
21:10was compelling television you can see
21:12why MSNBC shot to the top of the ratings
21:14for the first time in 20 years uh this
21:17looked like you know the end of the
21:19world this was the millerite prediction
21:21you know of you know the world was going
21:24to come to the to an end and it was
21:26going to happen on live TV and you
21:27better not turn it off because you know
21:29it might happen while over on the air
21:31right they would even do if you watch
21:33the the tosses between one show to
21:36another
21:37um they would sort of guide you from one
21:40show to the next and warn you that you
21:43better not turn the dial because between
21:46Lawrence O'Donnell and Rachel it might
21:48happen you know and
21:50um this was very compelling TV I yeah I
21:53understand why they did it but the
21:55problem was you know you were setting
21:58yourself up you were writing checks that
22:00you were going to have to cash at some
22:01point and you know that's a very
22:04dangerous place to be I mean one of the
22:05things I always liked about journalism
22:07is that when you're done with the story
22:09it's done you're you know you go to
22:12sleep and you don't have to think about
22:13it anymore this thing was like the sort
22:15of Damocles like hanging over the whole
22:17business and I I don't understand what
22:20people were thinking I know a lot of the
22:22Old Timers were were very worried about
22:25it but but they're kind of all gone
22:27they're all gone exactly yeah so
22:31um you know with the is
22:33you know does what's interesting is that
22:36Russia gate was primarily among liberals
22:38who you know and none of this I guess is
22:40true but like during the Cold War it was
22:42like well the conservatives were The
22:43Real Americans and they understood that
22:45the Soviet Union and and you know by
22:47extension the Russian people were evil
22:49and you can't really do business with
22:51evil and the Liberals were more like no
22:53you know we have to work peacefully and
22:55now it's weird because it's liberals who
22:57are like Russia Russia Russia like
23:00they're evil and now we have
23:01conservatives who are like you know
23:03Putin you know get Putin a chance or
23:05something like you know how do you
23:08explain like these weird flips it's like
23:11you know what every million years or
23:14something the the North and South Pole
23:16flip and then you but then it feels like
23:18okay it's always been this way like
23:20where is that coming from
23:22well I originally thought it was because
23:24I had gone crazy like that something was
23:27wrong with me personally I think that
23:28was a common experience of a lot of
23:30people like it must be me like this this
23:33must all make sense somewhere
23:35um outside of my understanding but if
23:38you look back I can't remember which one
23:40of them said it I feel like it's either
23:41Jim Clapper or Ted Lou but there was a
23:44prominent politician it said something
23:46like the Russian is genetically
23:48predisposed to deceive or something like
23:50that like this was a comment a
23:53politician made and it flew all over
23:56social media and it wasn't condemned it
23:59was like you know sort of upheld
24:02um and again as you say back in the
24:04Soviet days one of the principal liberal
24:09um ideas was that you know the the
24:12Russian person is not guilty right there
24:14was the sting song You Know Russian
24:16mothers love their children too right
24:18exactly that was that was staying and
24:20you know Richard Pryor said you know hey
24:23if you don't have that hat on I don't
24:25know I don't know the Russians don't
24:26have the Hat on I don't know who the
24:28[ __ ] he is yeah like they're just people
24:30just like us
24:32um that all went out the window when
24:33this started and why I have no idea
24:37um you let's talk a little bit about
24:38leaving Rolling Stone uh when when did
24:41you leave exactly
24:43uh I guess I left in 2019 right and you
24:47you went to substack immediately you
24:50were one of the original people which
24:52also was fascinating when subsex started
24:55and then when it came out they were
24:57paying some people then there was like
24:59again from kind of Legacy Media or like
25:01Cub reporters who were pissed they
25:03weren't getting 200 Grand advances we're
25:06like that's wrong like why should people
25:08be paid to do independent journalism
25:10right it was bizarre but what led to the
25:13rupture with rolling stone because like
25:15you were saying I mean you know that
25:16what a great position to be in
25:19um you know it's a it's a coveted slot
25:21Rolling Stone it's weird because yeah
25:23when it started in 67 but it quickly
25:26became like mainstream publication
25:29mainstream journalism what led to the
25:31rupture there
25:32yeah first of all I love Rolling Stone I
25:36I'll always have a soft spot in my heart
25:38for it I think it had
25:40um a couple of really long hey days
25:43where it did unbelievable work it was
25:47great as music journalism for a long
25:49time it was it was Innovative in
25:52bringing it
25:53um Hunter Thompson's style of writing to
25:57political journalism and I think you
25:59know that's become iconic now right they
26:03brought pgr work in uh then you know
26:06when I was there in the early 2000s and
26:10mid-2000s the owner John wenner was
26:15absolutely against a lot of the stuff
26:17that I wrote Because I was reporting on
26:19financial corruption that didn't look
26:21good for the Democratic party
26:23um sometimes but he was cool with it
26:26he's you know that was a rare thing like
26:28in journalism it's not often when your
26:30boss says I hate this but go for it you
26:32know
26:33um that's what makes a magazine great
26:35and
26:36but that started to change I think after
26:38Trump everybody's tolerance for
26:42um you know sort of exploring different
26:44points of view kind of dried up and I
26:47didn't leave because I was pressured or
26:50pushed out the door it was really more
26:52that I had a sense that there was
26:56something more lucrative and more
26:57rewarding out there on the independent
27:00front
27:01um so are you making more money on
27:04substack than you were for Rolling Stone
27:05a lot more really can you say how much
27:08more like I I don't want to say make us
27:11all feel bad not just me but the camera
27:13guys for let's just say that I'm making
27:16many times over more than I was making
27:18at Rolling Stone what do you what
27:20accounts for that I mean part of it is
27:22sub stack I mean the code they kind of
27:24cracked was allowing people to be able
27:26to easily monetize an audience right but
27:30you know what I mean how how do you
27:33account for like the idea so basically
27:35what you showed and you know I think
27:37Mata glasius leaving Vox has done this
27:40um I think Glenn Greenwald it's
27:42interesting since he started the
27:44intercept and then was like God I hate
27:45this place and the feelings were mutual
27:48but like when you get to a place where a
27:50writer like you somehow if you're making
27:53you know I don't know five times what
27:54you were making it Rolling Stone you
27:56were carrying a ton of people at Rolling
27:58Stone like what what's the appeal do you
28:02think like for you Unbound
28:05well there was a couple of things one
28:08um any writer who's ever worked for
28:10editors and I've benefited massively
28:13from the editors I had like you know
28:14will Dana Eric Bates right I had great
28:16editors at Rolling Stone and
28:19um you know I would never say that
28:21they're bad for a writer but there is
28:24something to be said for when you turn
28:2550
28:27um and you want to write what you want
28:28to write about uh and there's nobody to
28:31say no that feels pretty good and
28:33sometimes that comes out in the writing
28:35too by the way do you are you edited now
28:37or is it like I mean or just copy
28:39editing or something yeah we do copy
28:41editing sometimes we do fact checking it
28:43depends on what kind of piece it is
28:44because I mean it's fast I I totally and
28:47I'm 10 years older I think than you or
28:49roughly so I get that but it's also as
28:52an editor I like yeah you know my best
28:55work was done when I had to explain
28:57myself to a pre-reader on some level
28:59right right there is some of that you
29:02know I mean like on on one level yes I
29:05would love to be writing working with an
29:07editor
29:08but a it's an expense B
29:12there's a speed element now to
29:15internet publishing that is new
29:19um even a delay of an hour can be
29:21consequential and
29:23how well a piece does and that that's
29:25that's different how do you describe
29:28your audience like
29:29um you know your your sub stock
29:31subscribers like can you give kind of a
29:34psychographic of them what you know who
29:36are the people who are
29:38reading you and paying you you know
29:40gratefully out of their own Pockets you
29:42know tons of dollars
29:44yeah so my overall list which includes
29:47the non-paying people I mean it's you
29:49know it's around four hundred thousand
29:51four hundred something thousand
29:53um subscribers now and it's funny
29:56originally
29:58um I would say they were all
30:00sort of Center Lefty people who knew me
30:04from Rolling Stone but now this is a
30:08very diverse audience that I have I have
30:11hardcore Trump supporters I have lots
30:14and lots of Independents who are like
30:16disaffected hippies from the 60s who are
30:20who are full of you know anger about
30:23what's happened to the Democratic party
30:25I have Libertarians I have people who
30:29you know have never been a part of any
30:31political movement it's really
30:33interesting actually because of Rolling
30:35Stone my audience was at was relatively
30:38homogeneous yeah
30:40um and that's not the case here how um
30:43you you mentioned John wenner you know
30:45who is kind of like a archetypal baby
30:48boomer right and on late 60s Boomer who
30:51among other things was you know one of
30:53those guys who you know is like I'm in
30:56favor of free speech no matter what
30:58um one of your most recent pieces or you
31:01know and like if you read the headlines
31:02of your subsect of like one is where
31:04have all the Liberals gone and other is
31:06get off the first amendment's lawn uh
31:09why Julian Assange must be freed the
31:11elite war on free thought like something
31:13has happened among people who broadly
31:17call themselves liberals or progressives
31:18where generationally up through probably
31:21Gen X that was like
31:24if not the most important issue like
31:27free speech Uber all is then it was like
31:30in the top three for younger people
31:32maybe it doesn't seem to be as important
31:36um do you agree with that and if so what
31:38do you think has shifted that younger
31:40people who are liberal and Progressive
31:42may have the exact same political
31:44commitments as you or like free speeches
31:46is more of a problem than it is a
31:48solution
31:49I'm less in tune with what's going on
31:52with people who are under 30 and how old
31:55are you right now I'm 53 okay yeah
31:59um
32:00in my generation growing up I didn't
32:04know anybody who wasn't
32:06relatively a free speech absolutist
32:08right like everybody I knew supported
32:11Frank Zappa and D Snyder and the parent
32:13against the parents music Resource
32:15Center we were all in favor of NWA when
32:17they you know every one of those
32:19controversies you know to a Live Crew
32:22yeah right yeah two Live Crew the even
32:25the tape delay for Richard Pryor when he
32:27went on Saturday Night Live right stuff
32:29like that
32:31um it was automatic it was a defining
32:33issue for for a generation
32:37um but there I think has been a Schism
32:41you know within former liberals
32:46uh it's it's clearer to me between
32:49Boomers and gen xers like me you know I
32:52mean you brought up John wenner there
32:54was actually a moment at Rolling Stone
32:56that I think was kind of significant
32:57where
32:59um in the primary season
33:02uh for 2016 Jan did a big official
33:07Rolling Stone editorial supporting
33:09Hillary Clinton
33:11and I was a little bit shocked by that
33:14given the Magazine's history yeah and I
33:18went to yawn personally and I said hey
33:20would you mind if I wrote a descending
33:21editorial
33:23and I wrote One in favor of Bernie and
33:27Jan's whole idea there was that the
33:31world has changed since uh 1972. George
33:35McGovern got beat
33:37um we were wrong then we have to win now
33:41and winning is the most important thing
33:44and so forget about idealism and all
33:47that stuff we cared about in the 60s and
33:4970s and every and all that I mean I
33:52thought this is supposed to be a
33:54magazine for young people theoretically
33:55right you know how is that gonna fly but
33:58it did you know um and I I was a little
34:00bit surprised by
34:02um the reaction to both my editorial and
34:05his that's fascinating that he as a
34:08boomer is like yeah free speech oh you
34:11know we can leave it
34:12um because clearly younger Generations
34:15seem less enamored of that and that's I
34:17mean one of the things I think about
34:18people you know squarely on the
34:21Progressive left like you uh Tom Frank
34:23Thomas Frank Glenn Greenwald Etc like
34:26you evolved over the past few years have
34:29articulate you know broken with identity
34:31politics can you talk a little bit about
34:33that and again in terms of policy
34:37commitments I don't know that you're
34:38that different but you know why don't
34:41identity politics resonate with you
34:46I don't believe a lot of the identity
34:48politics that are being proffered by the
34:51current version of the democratic party
34:53are genuine and my first uh experience
34:59with this where I really really thought
35:00about this was when I was following
35:03Bernie Sanders's campaign in
35:052016. and there was a moment in that
35:08campaign where he first started to
35:09really draw blood against Hillary right
35:12um You might remember it was like in
35:14February uh or late January of 2016 he
35:19was hammering her on her ties to Goldman
35:22Sachs and other Banks the New York Post
35:24interestingly did this published this
35:27big list of all of her speech
35:29commitments and it was kind of amazing
35:31and she wouldn't release the transcripts
35:33right she wouldn't release the
35:34transcripts but
35:36um I mean even the schedule was amazing
35:38she was doing three hundred thousand
35:40dollars in the morning and then flying
35:41to some place and doing 400 Grandad or
35:44something yeah
35:46circle of the Builder burgers or
35:48whatever and they tried everything to
35:51hit back and nothing worked until she
35:53said
35:54if we break up the banks tomorrow will
35:57that end racism
35:58and Bernie
36:00was paralyzed by that yeah Bernie's an
36:03old school he's a real comedy I mean I I
36:06mean that like where it's class and
36:09everything else is a distraction right
36:11that you know you know you know
36:13capitalists will use race in order to
36:15keep the workers from realizing no
36:17they're all on the same side well I I
36:19would say I almost wish he was that
36:22because you know Bernie also marched in
36:24you know in for a civil rights movement
36:26in the 60s and he was terrified of the
36:30idea that he might be accused of race
36:32racism it it mortified him and I think
36:35it really slowed his campaign though
36:37yeah I there was also that moment I
36:40think it might have been in Seattle or
36:41something where he was almost literally
36:42pushed off the stage by a couple of
36:44black activists who were like we need to
36:46be talking about racial
36:48concerns not whatever he was talking
36:51about right not your class thing
36:53whatever that is right and that and that
36:55was when they started to
36:57um sort of demonize the white working
37:00class right which is a brilliant
37:01strategic move also interestingly it was
37:06the exact opposite of what the clintons
37:07had done in the 90s you know the
37:10Clinton's whole strategy was let's peel
37:13off a little bit of that white working
37:14class and we feel their pain we feel
37:16their pain right and and that's you know
37:19they just got over the Finish Line doing
37:21that and now they
37:23um so we can add to the sins of Hillary
37:26Clinton that she also injected identity
37:28politics I think so I think I think that
37:31was a conscious thing that they did
37:34um that they nothing was working for
37:37them though I mean if you if you read
37:39those books that one of the books about
37:41the Hillary campaign there's a hilarious
37:43chapter where they couldn't come up with
37:45a slogan because they didn't even know
37:46what they stood for like they were they
37:48were toying with it's her turn you know
37:51um and but this you know this whole idea
37:55of identity politics being something
37:57that they could Lord over somebody like
37:59Bernie who was you know a legitimately
38:04an oppositional movement and who was
38:06drawing on this anger the same anger
38:08that Trump was
38:09um you know it worked it stopped him in
38:11his tracks
38:13um
38:14the
38:15um you know let's talk a little bit
38:17about uh Julian Assange speaking Hillary
38:20hated Julian Assange because she among
38:23other things felt embarrassed by him you
38:26know with the first big wikileaps dump
38:28uh you know from Chelsea Manning uh you
38:31know and on from that how do you how do
38:35you make sense of journalists who
38:38actually don't think that Julian Assange
38:40should be like free to walk the planet
38:44I mean it's stunning because these are
38:47always the same people are like you know
38:48the New York Times And The Washington
38:49Post were so brave you know pushing back
38:52against the Vietnam War publishing the
38:54Pentagon papers
38:56yeah and even publishing Assange at one
38:59point right
39:01um
39:02I remember doing
39:04um public service announcements with
39:06other journalists uh I did one that was
39:10um you know where everybody had to stand
39:13up and say I am Bradley Manning it was
39:15Bradley Manning back then uh but there
39:17were a whole lot of people in the media
39:19business and in that public service
39:20announcement because everybody at that
39:23time believed that of course this is
39:26right you know we're we're exposing war
39:28crimes what could be wrong with that
39:29yeah and there was no question that the
39:32the files were true like the information
39:34was accurate nobody had any uh there's
39:37never been an issue of factuality not
39:40that I know of with with Wikileaks there
39:42are some other ethical issues that I you
39:45know I think are legitimate but with
39:47factuality no
39:49but the amazing thing about the reaction
39:52that journalists have had since the
39:55indictment is the total inability to to
39:58see how this relates to the future of
40:01Journalism I mean they're threatening
40:03this guy with 175 years in prison for
40:06doing basically the same thing that
40:08every National Security journalist does
40:10every day
40:11um you know they're talking about
40:14conspiracy to
40:16um retain National Defense information
40:19or obtaining National Defense
40:22information well that happens all the
40:25time I mean you this stuff doesn't even
40:27have to be classified but we hear
40:28classified things all the time when we
40:30do reporting if that's going to be a
40:32crime you can go to jail for 10 years
40:34for and they're going to enforce that
40:36how can you do reporting anymore and
40:38everybody's all for it does that
40:40disappear if Trump disappears I mean is
40:44this all kind of an epic phenomenon of
40:46trump is so uniquely awful and you know
40:49and you have people Hunter Thompson
40:51actually I guess said this more with
40:53George W bush but that like you know
40:55Nixon was bad Nixon you know the scumbag
40:57of the universe was bad but George W
40:59bush is really bad and I mean is it just
41:02I mean I don't know is it like old
41:04manism or something where it's like
41:05Nixon was bad but Trump is the end of
41:08the world and I don't think it's a
41:11coincidence that the Obama
41:12Administration didn't feel like it had
41:14the Jews to indict
41:17um Assange as much as they wanted to
41:18right um but that after
41:21Trump got elected ironically enough it
41:24was Trump's own justice department that
41:25did it but you know politically there
41:28was a lot of support for that after this
41:32story in 2016 about you know uh
41:35Wikileaks possibly working with the
41:37Russians again legally it doesn't matter
41:41because the case is about an earlier
41:43time period people don't think that way
41:45anymore though
41:47um so but I think you're right I think I
41:48think absent Trump there this wouldn't
41:52be happening but Will trump ever go away
41:55then or is the threat of the next Trump
41:57enough to kind of you know keep huffing
42:00this type of
42:02anti-first amendment or like where free
42:05speech is free speech is negotiable now
42:08going forward
42:10I think one of the main things and we
42:12found in the Twitter files was that if
42:15it's not Trump it's something there's
42:18always demon X that
42:22um their warning audiences away from and
42:25they always come up with a word that is
42:27sort of a non-negotiable code for threat
42:30so it's any vaxer right or domestic
42:34violent extremist or insurrectionist or
42:37anything you know something along those
42:38lines Trump in that sense I think has
42:41been an enormous Boon to the
42:43intelligence Services they've been able
42:45to say hey if you if you code AS
42:48somebody who sides with Trump
42:50um you know essentially they've created
42:55um what I like to call it the sort of
42:56one villain theory of the universe which
42:58is if you're on Trump's side that means
43:01you're on Putin's side which means
43:02you're also on Assad side you're on
43:04orban's side you're on the side of
43:05domestic violence G somehow will end up
43:08in that mix too right exactly it's all
43:10kind of like an Edible Arrangement right
43:12I mean you can just keep adding flavors
43:14or something yeah and
43:17rationally it's a crazy conspiracy
43:19theory but
43:21um they actually do
43:25denialists and ban and and de-amplify
43:28People based on ideas like that uh um
43:31you know we're talking in Memphis where
43:34Freedom Fest is you're speaking there
43:36RFK Junior Robert F Kennedy Jr speaking
43:39one of the things that's interesting
43:41about RFK we've reason has talked to him
43:43and we've critiqued him in all of this
43:45but he self-consciously says he is
43:48following a lot of Trump's Playbook like
43:51he you know he I I saw an interview with
43:54him where he said you know he
43:55misunderstood Trump's appeal he was very
43:57anti-trump but like now he's starting to
44:00understand
44:01why people looked at Trump seriously and
44:04he wants to kind of grab some of that
44:06what you know what is going on like why
44:09do people like Trump and now RFK Jr what
44:12what are they giving to people that
44:14they're not getting out of traditional
44:16candidates
44:18I don't think it's that big of a mystery
44:20I mean the very first time that I saw
44:22Trump in person
44:24I remember having the thought 20 minutes
44:26into his speech this is gonna work I
44:29mean I didn't know if he was going to
44:30win
44:31um but what he was doing was scoring you
44:35could feel it in the audience and why
44:38was that well America since 2008
44:41especially had become incredibly
44:44dysfunctional we had had a a massive
44:48Financial collapse where the elite and
44:52Wealthy class had been completely bailed
44:55out when a lot of them should have gone
44:57to jail
44:58and everybody else sort of paid the bill
45:01including millions of people who got
45:04thrown out of their homes you know in
45:06some cases justifiably but in some cases
45:09not and you add that to the you know the
45:14ongoing wars in the Middle East there
45:16were lots of vets in Trump's crowds you
45:19know who had gripes about all kinds of
45:20things
45:22um yeah and Trump picked up on anger at
45:27institutional America that I think had a
45:29legitimate basis if you've read Martin
45:31Garry's book The Revolt of the public he
45:34predicted this before Trump came on the
45:36scene he said people are going to be
45:37pissed about all these different things
45:39and all it takes is somebody who's tuned
45:41into that and my only concern about
45:46Trump was that he was going to promise a
45:49lot but not really deliver he was going
45:50to be a fake reformer so if somebody
45:53were to come along and be a you know a
45:56real reformer if they were actually
45:58going to try to do something about some
46:00of these things that would probably have
46:01a lot of appeal to the public do you
46:03think RFK is that person
46:06I think he's more honest than Donald
46:08Trump I think
46:10um you know the people that he
46:12surrounded himself with are
46:15real politicians I think they actually
46:18care about a lot of these issues Trump
46:22for me was a master at the appearance
46:25side of the game right he was just so
46:27good at visual politics and
46:30um virality and all these things that
46:33people didn't understand very well back
46:35then but he wasn't a policy one he
46:38wasn't staying up in that reading
46:39position papers
46:41um you know with Kennedy it's still
46:45unknown I would say you know what house
46:47in Syria is what what he's really up to
46:49I think we have to get to know him a
46:51little bit better
46:52um with you know he's also coming onto
46:55the scene post covid
46:57um you know and Trump occupied a weird
46:59space during coven right because it was
47:01kind of like uh you know I'm not going
47:04to tell you what to do I have experts
47:07um but you know he was criticized for
47:09not implementing a single policy which
47:12in the end may have been better but then
47:14he also you know he did Operation warp
47:16speed which actually worked to get
47:18vaccines out quickly they didn't come
47:20quick before the election which he's
47:22obviously still pissed about but he's
47:24also kind of an anti-vaxxer how if 2008
47:29was a moment where like okay you know
47:31American institutions people are like
47:32[ __ ] it we're you know these These are
47:34these are not working for us how much
47:36worse is it post covet do you think I
47:40think it's a lot worse post covet covid
47:43has added to the dynamic that 2008 Iraq
47:48yeah
47:49um wmds all that stuff even the 2000
47:52election where we couldn't really decide
47:54yeah that too right you add that on top
47:57of it but covet has a whole long list of
48:01things that have added to Middle
48:02America's grievances beginning with the
48:05fact that it it increasingly looks like
48:07they lied to us about the origins of the
48:10disease
48:12for some pretty weak reasons maybe
48:15um you know they were trying to cover up
48:16some research they were doing uh that's
48:20thing one that's looking increasingly
48:22likely at the very least they excluded
48:25the possibility of that
48:27um illegitimately and used I mean that
48:30was where the government was telling
48:31Twitter and Facebook at all like don't
48:34run this stuff or they're squelch it
48:36right exactly squelch that
48:39um
48:39then there was you know this whole idea
48:42of tying anti-vaccine
48:46um sentiment to anti-mandate sentiment
48:49right right and they consciously blurred
48:51the lines about that there were a lot of
48:53people I did a story about Loudoun
48:55County Virginia when you know the
48:57Republicans won the gubernatorial
48:58election there and there were people
49:00there who were furious at the way they
49:02had been portrayed in the media
49:06um as racists or anti-vaxxers really
49:09they wanted their kids to go back to
49:11school because they had done their own
49:14research online they found the kids
49:15weren't really at risk and their kids
49:18weren't learning anything and it was a
49:20burden on them personally right so
49:21there's a million things like this that
49:23have added to ordinary people's
49:26dissatisfaction and again with covet
49:29there's the additional
49:31complicating factor of kids being
49:33involved like once you know peop people
49:36feel strongly but once once there's
49:37something about their kids and once it
49:39be and it became clear pretty early on
49:41that kids were not affected and yet they
49:44were the ones who were whose lives were
49:46most clearly upended by this right by
49:49lockdowns one where are you on like
49:52vaccines are you an anti-covet vaxxer
49:54are you anti-mandate are you Pro mandate
49:57pro-vaccine or I'm anti-mandit for sure
50:00you know
50:01um and you know my wife's a doctor I'm
50:04pretty okay reliably convinced that
50:06vaccines have been a good thing overall
50:08in in the world
50:11um I yeah you know I I I'm not a
50:14scientist this is one of the reasons why
50:16I stayed away from the story is because
50:17this is not my ex area of expertise but
50:20um I I do think lockdowns have been bad
50:23uh I do think the the Press
50:26lied about the threat to kids
50:30and I don't understand why they had to
50:33do that
50:34um I'm not I'm not so sure about the
50:36efficacy of vaccinating children at all
50:39you know this recent Missouri V Biden
50:43case involved some doctors who just said
50:45some very logical things like if there's
50:48any risk at all with this vaccine even
50:52if it's infinitesimal it's probably more
50:55than the risk of sending your kid to
50:57school
50:57because you know this thing doesn't
51:00really hurt kids and they've tossed them
51:03off Twitter for that or they tossed them
51:04on Facebook for that that's crazy you
51:07know and I think people see that as
51:08crazy the uh you know the other big
51:10story that parallel coveted in the
51:12lockdowns obviously was George Floyd and
51:14kind of racial Reckoning and whatnot you
51:16had it was a 2019 when you were at the
51:18Eric Garner book uh or earlier 18 I
51:22think yeah yeah I mean which is a you
51:25know before the lockdown and things like
51:27that but how you know obviously you know
51:30the George Floyd's story was huge and it
51:33was you know again it probably wouldn't
51:35have been as big if we weren't in
51:37lockdown and whatnot but go back to Eric
51:39Garner who was arrested for selling
51:42loose cigarettes in Staten Island and
51:44then died while the police were
51:45arresting him
51:47um where where do you think we are in
51:49terms of kind of Criminal Justice Reform
51:51as well as race relations
51:54um is are we better than 2019 or you
51:57know or Eric Garner time or is it worse
52:00or is it just kind of like an open wound
52:01that we never quite can close or heal I
52:04don't know I mean I haven't spent a lot
52:06of time in the last couple of years
52:07looking at local policing I did for many
52:09years spent a lot of time in the courts
52:11and you know doing Street reporting the
52:16George Floyd summer was very frustrating
52:19for me personally because the big lesson
52:22that I came away from was from the
52:24George Floyd story was that broken
52:26windows policing had massively increased
52:30the number of contacts between the
52:33ordinary Citizen and police which in
52:37turn resulted in a lot of these
52:39situations going wrong and people dying
52:41and the one thing that's fixable in this
52:44whole milia
52:46um is we can change that we can change
52:48statistics-based policing we don't have
52:50to order people to stop you know 20
52:53people a month or whatever it is and it
52:56never came up I mean it was it was like
52:59it was purposely excluded from the floor
53:02it didn't seem to be serving anybody's
53:04interests right right everybody
53:07abstracted immediately to your your
53:10racist you're not racist or something
53:12right because it wasn't it it didn't
53:14have a tie to
53:17America's racist past uh you know the
53:22inherent uh tendency towards white
53:24supremacy now there are obviously
53:26enormous racial overtones to police
53:30brutality and I detailed a lot of them
53:32in you know my book
53:35but it's only part of the picture I mean
53:38it's this is just the same thing as like
53:41Trump coverage uh people picked one
53:43thing and that became the in the entire
53:46lens through which they looked at that
53:48story and they ignored all these other
53:50you know Shades of Gray and complexities
53:53um and made I think they left audiences
53:57less informed than they were before as a
54:01result
54:02um part I got uh to kind of wrap up one
54:05of the things I find most interesting
54:06about your your kind of post
54:08mainstream media output and you've
54:11started a podcast or you where you
54:13talked with Walter Kern the novelist and
54:16a lot of what you're doing is you're
54:17talking about stuff like uh you know
54:19Mark Twain's the man that corrupted
54:21Hadley Berg or you know classic stories
54:24American stories Etc what's the goal
54:26there and what has the response been
54:30part of it is just because Walter Kern
54:33and I
54:34um both like talking about books we
54:36don't get to do it very much we've
54:38decided to experiment what would happen
54:40if we did that and
54:43um what we found is people are so tired
54:47of the Relentless sort of binary nature
54:52of media these days
54:54TMX versus Team y team blue versus red
54:58and it's divisive it's anti-intellectual
55:02you don't get to talk about anything
55:05interesting in these shows it's always
55:07an argument and it's a dumb argument
55:09that just never ends and I mean this was
55:12part of I mean this is the basis of hate
55:15Inc your book about what's the subtitle
55:18why today's media make us hate each
55:20other yeah exactly exactly and I think
55:24it's it's a kind of a bad product unless
55:27you're
55:29um unless you have some kind of amazing
55:31breaking news that's about to come out
55:33why would you watch it I mean it just
55:35makes you depressed what we found is
55:38when we talked about these stories we're
55:39getting into all these
55:41um issues and also we're also finding
55:43that a lot of these old stories that
55:46um you know maybe dust covered in
55:48people's imaginations they're amazingly
55:50relevant today you know the EM Foresters
55:53of the machine stops
55:55um has a lot of relevance to can you do
55:57a quick summary what what's the plot of
55:59that yeah the plot of that the Ian
56:02Forster
56:03um imagined a world where people no
56:06longer had to do anything they lived
56:07underground
56:09um machines basically did everything for
56:12them they were told that if they went
56:14outside they would die immediately there
56:16were legends about that so uh but one
56:19day the machine starts to malfunction
56:21because the people who were are taking
56:25care of the machine they've started to
56:27die off and so the thing has started to
56:29malfunction and people slowly realized
56:32that they've been had it's actually safe
56:36to go outside and a lot of the Legends
56:39they've been
56:40um told to keep them afraid and keep
56:42them indoors and keep them
56:44from acting out on their own are fake
56:47and that's very true of Internet culture
56:49I think we you know we're a lot of us
56:51are
56:52captured by our neuroses now right we
56:55don't have as much face-to-face contact
56:57with people and
56:59um it's it's very relevant today you
57:02know and and it was so much fun talking
57:04about that and we got a great response
57:07from people who you know who are saying
57:11um there's a whole world of thought out
57:13there that they're telling us doesn't
57:14exist anymore but it it is out there you
57:17know and people are learning to enjoy it
57:19again I think we're going to leave it
57:21there math taibi thanks for talking to
57:22reason great thanks so much
57:25foreign
57:26[Music]

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