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Marvin Olasky on Compassionate Conservatism — Transcript

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0:01hi and welcome to the Ministry Network
0:05podcast I'm your host James
0:08bear today we're continuing our
0:11conversation with Dr Marvin oaski editor
0:14and chief of World magazine in this
0:17episode we'll talk about compassionate
0:19conservatism and the future of American
0:24journalism the Ministry Network podcast
0:27is sponsored by Westminster Theological
0:29Seminary
0:30to learn more about their new online
0:32programs visit Ministry network.com
0:36deegree
0:38now let's talk with Dr
0:43oaski what advice would you give to
0:46pastors who are trying to figure out
0:47what their part in practicing
0:49compassionate conservatism should look
0:52like well number one actually learn how
0:55it works and be involved yourself I'll
0:59tell you just one one experience I spent
1:02some time in Washington also trying to
1:04evangelize for compassion conservatism
1:07and I remember once talking to a group
1:09of members of Congress and they were
1:12pretty well tracking what I was saying
1:14most of them were politically
1:15conservative they came in in the
1:17Republican Revolution the so-called of
1:191995 and they were you know going along
1:21with what I was saying and nodding and
1:22so forth until I got to the point and
1:24said hey if you're going to do this you
1:27really have to be able to talk about
1:29this a little bit or at least understand
1:31it from your own personal experience you
1:32can't just be issuing your sound bites
1:35written by a speech writer you should be
1:37able to help someone and then in helping
1:40someone don't do it with cameras rolling
1:43but just go and tutor a child or help a
1:45guy in trouble and do it for a while and
1:47learn and then you can refer to it
1:50occasionally and it'll be real and at
1:52that point they this is a little bit
1:55like when Paul in Athens at a certain
1:56point in his in Acts 17 starts talking
2:00about the same thing happened with the
2:02uh representatives and Senators that
2:04they said we just don't have time for
2:05that don't have time for that so i'
2:07would say pastors even mega church
2:09pastors especially mega church pastors
2:11who are just pretty much Executives and
2:13Sunday morning preachers they actually
2:15have to go out there and learn something
2:17themselves and actually help someone and
2:19also learn and when they've done that
2:22then they can really talk about it or or
2:24members of their congregation to do it
2:25so that's number one I think they have
2:27to actually have experience and it used
2:29to be part of being a pastor actually a
2:31shepherd and sometimes in big churches
2:34people are not Shepherds anymore they
2:35are CEOs and that's a problem but
2:38secondly don't go beyond what the Bible
2:41says and also don't say less than what
2:43the Bible says we have a metaphor we
2:46have with our world reporters a
2:47conference call for all our reporters
2:49every couple of weeks and we'll talk
2:51about certain issues that are arising
2:54and we believe in what we call biblical
2:56objectivity not just I mean we want to
2:59quote everyone accurate we want to show
3:00everyone's position truthfully but we
3:03don't think that objectivity comes just
3:05if you quote a person a and a person be
3:08that's not objectivity because both of
3:10them may be very wrong and often are
3:12biblical objectivity is trying to follow
3:15what the Bible says and apply what the
3:17Bible says so we want to be careful to
3:20not speak beyond what the Bible says and
3:21also not say less what the Bible says
3:23and the metaphor we use in trying to
3:25apply biblical objectivity to stories as
3:27they arise is a metaphor from whitewater
3:31rapids which I've done a little bit of
3:33there are six classes of whitewater
3:35rapids class one is really easy stuff
3:38maybe just a little bit of Rippling
3:39water gently down the stream even I can
3:42be a captain of a boat in a class one
3:44Rapids it goes they become progressively
3:46harder class two are there's more white
3:49water you could be thrown out of the
3:51boat but then you float Downstream
3:53someone will pick you up class three is
3:56a small waterfall let's say just a 5-ft
3:58drop with a little bit of swirl going on
4:01a Whirlpool action but no big trouble I
4:03mean I have done a class three without
4:05getting myself or other people killed
4:08but then it gets harder and harder and
4:09harder it goes all the way up to class
4:10six which is going over a huge waterfall
4:13and you're probably going to be dead so
4:15that's something to be avoided a class
4:17one issue is something where the Bible
4:20is really clear for example you know you
4:23shall not commit adultery to my
4:25knowledge there is there may be now if
4:27the Yellow Pages were still around maybe
4:29I'd find something maybe there is a
4:31Christians for adultery organization I
4:33don't think so I haven't heard of one as
4:35such it's very clear adultery is a Class
4:38one issue now it may be sometimes what
4:42you consider is adultery for example are
4:45now a legally married gay couple are
4:48they committing adultery well biblically
4:50yes they are that's part of it other
4:52people would say we want to skate over
4:54that in some way but still in World a
4:56class one issue is a Class one issue the
4:58Bible's very clear we may not like it
5:00all the time but nevertheless the Bible
5:02is clear and we're going to present
5:05things from a Biblical perspective again
5:07we will quote an abortionist and try to
5:10let people understand why this person
5:12thinks that abortion is good we will
5:14certainly we quote gay people we'll
5:16quote all kinds of folks but we'll make
5:19it clear in the article that there is a
5:20Biblical position on this and this does
5:23not mean that these people are Beyond
5:24God's help because God was merciful to
5:27me a communist God can be merciful and
5:28is merciful to of other people but still
5:31class one Rapids will have a clear
5:32position the Bible is explicit class two
5:35is where the Bible is implicit class
5:37three is where people can quote things
5:40from the Bible that would seem to
5:41justify a variety of different positions
5:44but using the whole Council of God
5:45reading very carefully I would say that
5:47poverty fighting there is a Christian
5:49understanding of poverty fighting and I
5:51would call that a class three issue and
5:52there is a way to do it some folks might
5:54disagree with me Jim Wallace might
5:56disagree with me and he and I have
5:57debated this a little bit but
5:59nevertheless Less in world we are going
6:02to try to emphasize that the real way
6:05the basic way to help people is not just
6:08materially but spiritually as well both
6:10of those are essential and this goes
6:12then all the way to class six issues
6:14gets harder and harder harder class 4
6:16issue is something where the Bible isn't
6:18really clear on it but there is a
6:19Biblical understanding of human nature
6:22and we can apply that uh class five
6:24would be we really can't get a whole lot
6:26out of the Bible that directly applies
6:28but there is we we can study history and
6:30we can learn a lot from that and apply
6:31that and then class six would be hey
6:33we're pretty much on our own a class six
6:36issue some International Trade issues
6:37may be class six issues where they're
6:39very complex where to locate a
6:41particular highway or toll road may be a
6:44class six issue and there we would look
6:46to the experts and maybe quote from toll
6:48road expert a and toll road expert B
6:51we're not going to say that the Bible
6:53has a position on toll roads and where I
6:55got this I became a Christian
6:581976 the first thing I was confronted
7:00with at this particular church was a
7:04stack of documents from an organization
7:06that may have been called Christian
7:07voice that was raiding members of the
7:10House of Representatives and Senators on
7:12their Christian beliefs by how they
7:14voted on particular pieces of
7:16legislation and one of the pieces of
7:18legislation they had a vote on was
7:20whether they believe the Panama Canal
7:22should be returned administratively to
7:24Panama or whether the United States
7:26should still have full legal authority
7:28over it
7:30and you know try as I might scrutinize
7:32as hard as I might I could not find
7:34anything in the Bible that directly told
7:36me about who should be in charge of the
7:38Panama Canal I may have missed book 67
7:42the book of Panama but I just did not
7:44find anything there so I was somewhat
7:47amused that this was seen as an issue
7:50now you can certainly there are certain
7:52things you can learn historically class
7:545 issues about dictatorships and so
7:58forth but nevertheless
8:00this is not an issue that someone from
8:02the pulpit should be speaking about I
8:04think it's fully legit for someone in
8:08the Pulpit to be speaking about abortion
8:10I think the Bible is clear this is a
8:12terrible thing and I would be
8:14disappointed if a pastor never refers to
8:16that at all so you know that's the way
8:18we tend to look at things I would say
8:20the pastors should be quite willing to
8:22speak and speak powerfully about class
8:24one and Class 2 Rapids where the Bible
8:26is explicit or implicit I think pastors
8:28should explore
8:30class three and class four issues but be
8:32certainly tentative in what they're
8:34saying and I would say the Pastors in
8:36the Pulpit should stay away from class
8:38five or class six issues and not only in
8:40the Pulpit I mean they should not be
8:41taking a political position on things
8:44that are the Bible isn't clar about and
8:46they should also not be endorsing
8:47candidates at world I'm not a fan I know
8:50there are some Christian groups that are
8:52very much in favor of repealing the
8:54Johnson Amendment and they make a big
8:56thing of this and they actually would
8:57say this is a Christian position to
8:59repeal the Johnson Amendment I'm
9:00actually happy that pastors cannot
9:02endorse or not supposed to legally
9:03endorse candidates from the pulpit
9:05that's not our job so I'd say we stay
9:07within our lanes stay within our spheres
9:11to quote Abraham Kyper a little bit and
9:13there's plenty for pastors to do
9:15exegeting the Bible opening it up to
9:17people paying special attention to the
9:19Bible and sometimes applying it to a
9:21particular issue where the Bible is
9:23clear without getting into class five or
9:25class six issues or endorsing particular
9:28candidates that is so helpful so as we
9:30think about compassionate conservatism
9:33it's important to practice it and
9:34remember that it's really a class three
9:36issue yes it's a class three issue and
9:39you know and disagree as I do with Jim
9:41Wallace on some things I would not say
9:43that Jim Wallace isn't a Christian I
9:45would not say that what he's saying is
9:47terrible because tell you the you know
9:49Texas there's the famous Texas twostep
9:51and the two steps I think whenever I've
9:53talked about poverty when I'm not being
9:55stupid is number one be generous and
9:58number two be discerning
9:59I once spoke to uh a group of PCA
10:03deacons in Atlanta and I assumed that we
10:08all were together on step one be
10:11generous and so I went right to step two
10:13without explaining anything about step
10:14one and it turns out that they were
10:17suspicious of me or some of them were
10:18suspicious of me in some ways because I
10:20had been identified with a conservative
10:22magazine and since I didn't go into step
10:25one they thought I was saying no be
10:27stingy and no that's not the case case
10:29all so you always have to have step one
10:31and step two and I would think that's I
10:33would recommend that to pastors also but
10:35sometimes if you just say step one then
10:37there are now books out this wasn't the
10:39case 20 or some years ago but there's a
10:41whole Library out now with titles like
10:44when helping hurts which is actually the
10:46title of a very good book but other
10:48books showing that you need to be
10:50Discerning but I would never say Well
10:52since helping hurts don't be helpful
10:54Brian doesn't say that either so our
10:57goal is to be helpful but our goal is to
10:59be helpful in a really truthful helping
11:01way not just a way that makes us feel
11:03good but may actually hurt a person that
11:07is so helpful thank you very much for
11:09that you've also been a big advocate for
11:12this idea of the Reformation of
11:14Journalism can you tell us a little bit
11:17about why this Reformation is needed and
11:19what you hope journalism will look like
11:21on the other side of change well sure
11:23American journalism right now is in a
11:26mess I think journalists have uh lower
11:30trust rating in public opinion polls
11:33than even used car salesmen it's really
11:35low I mean you know I think one poll I
11:37saw 9% maybe think that what they just a
11:40general statement about is journalism
11:42truthful which is sad for a whole lot of
11:44reasons one being just historically that
11:47American journalism was Christian
11:49journalism from colonial days up until
11:51about the 1840s and I've written a
11:54couple books on this and have actually
11:56looked at the newspapers themselves
11:59which before the Civil War had very good
12:00rag content so you look at a newspaper
12:03by the way from the late 19th century
12:04and it'll crumble in your hands but you
12:07know I've looked at newspapers from the
12:081600s which are great you can still page
12:11it and they're easy to read and so forth
12:13so I've really enjoyed that type of
12:15research but you go through it and it's
12:17Christian journalism and people are very
12:20explicit in applying things to class one
12:22or class two things I mean sometimes
12:25they may be more explicit even than we
12:28would like in terms of making the
12:31assumption that a particular tornado
12:34came from God and thus went on a
12:36particular route now certainly God is
12:38Sovereign over tornadoes and God uses
12:41tornadoes to do his will for the good of
12:44his people but I would not go as far as
12:46the colonial journalists sometimes did
12:48in saying that because a person
12:50blasphemed in the morning that tornado
12:52was aiming right at his house at night I
12:55mean it was probably a useful thing for
12:57him to learn but you know what Jesus
12:58said says about the wall at Salam which
13:00falls down and 18 people are killed why
13:03is it it's not because necessarily of
13:05their sin or the sin of their parents
13:06but it's a sign from God it's a reminder
13:08from God it's God helping us so that
13:11every one of those dead 18 people was a
13:14missionary an evangelist from the dead
13:16to the living essentially telling us to
13:19think about our own sin and get our
13:21house in order as best we can through
13:23God's grace so anyway that's what
13:25journalism was very strongly Christian
13:28journalism things changed in the 1840s
13:30as Unitarianism became more prominent as
13:32a unarian editor named Horus grey became
13:35probably the leading editor in
13:36journalism at that point as a lot of
13:38other things were happening journalism
13:39became secularized and journalists still
13:43were trustworthy in some ways but at
13:45particular times in the 20th century
13:47they've become heavily ideological
13:49during the 1930s heavily on the left uh
13:52went away for a while came back in the
13:541960s and yeah I think conservatives are
13:57rightly up in arms about liberal biases
13:59in the Press but I think all Christians
14:02should be up in arms about the secular
14:04biases in the press That's the
14:05fundamental thing and whether we're
14:07liberal or conservative politically
14:09there's a real problem when journalists
14:11when you have 50 facts and you have room
14:14let's say for 10 facts then which facts
14:17are you going to emphasize which are you
14:18not let's say people have been ently
14:21praying but that basically in terms of
14:23your worldview is in terms of importance
14:25is fact number 49 it's not going to get
14:27into your article that's all going to be
14:29ignored so there's a problem there when
14:32journalists look at problems of
14:33addiction and alcoholism or poverty
14:35generally and emphasize only material
14:37transfers rather than spiritual needs
14:40that's also a problem so we're getting a
14:42distorted on all kinds of subjects we're
14:44getting distortions from journalism
14:46right now and then in terms of
14:48particular people who we are supposed to
14:49esteem and who we are supposed to
14:51despise that also tends to be very
14:53biased so you can see all these things
14:55and a book I wrote 30 years ago had the
14:58name prodigal PR press which I think is
15:00still I've had terrible titles on some
15:02of my books but this one I think was
15:04good because journalism is really The
15:06Prodigal Son of
15:07Christianity and it's out right now
15:10feeding the pigs and eating you know
15:12what the pigs don't want basically that
15:14may be a little bit too harsh but it's
15:16sad it's sad because I like reporters so
15:19much the reporters are fun to talk with
15:21they see interesting things and when
15:23they become propagandists that's not
15:25good in fact it's very bad and there are
15:27some conservative have that tendency
15:29also in a different way at this point I
15:32I do not trust MSNBC I do not trust Fox
15:35News either when our readers tell me and
15:39and they this is nice in one sense to
15:41hear oh I love world I love your daily
15:43podcast I read the magazine I read the
15:45website you're the only thing I read or
15:47listen to I tend to react with horror no
15:50you need to read other stuff too so I
15:53recommend to people reading a magazine
15:55on the left like the Atlantic which I
15:57think is sometimes propaga itic but
15:59there are some very good honest
16:00reporters who work there they see things
16:02of course through their own
16:03presuppositions but as far as they're
16:05actually observing and doing street
16:06level reporting and not just up at Sweet
16:09level they're doing useful stuff so yeah
16:12read the Atlantic read something on the
16:14right like National Review and read
16:16World which is I think a compassionate
16:18conservative publication but i' I'd put
16:21Christ first and conservative second and
16:23so we alienate Republican politicians
16:26and conservative politicians all over
16:28the place I could say we alienate people
16:29left and right and it's actually true so
16:32yeah so the Reformation of Journalism is
16:34important for secular journalism it's
16:36also important for a lot of Christian
16:38Publications also which sometimes try to
16:41say here's God's word on class five or
16:44class six things they don't talk about
16:46class five or six but they go further in
16:48the Bible in some plac and say if you
16:50don't get in line behind this
16:51conservative position then you're
16:53anti-christian and then sometimes there
16:54are Christian Publications that just
16:56want to do public relations for God and
16:58he doesn't need our public relations so
17:01that type of stuff is we sometimes wax a
17:04little bit sarcastic when we can
17:05actually see these people are not acting
17:07as journalists they're acting as
17:08publicists they're acting as
17:10propagandists so yeah there's a lot of
17:12reformation needed all over the place
17:14both in secular circles but also in some
17:16Christian circles we don't have to do
17:17public relations for God we can tell the
17:19truth God wants that God can use that
17:22even when it's unpleasant we don't want
17:24to you know like uh a Sunday school song
17:27we don't feel our readers have to read
17:29our publication and be happy happy happy
17:31happy happy all the time some stuff
17:33should make us very sad some stuff
17:35should make us deeply prayerful and
17:37running to God for mercy so there's one
17:40Christian publication called The Good
17:42News newspaper something like that I
17:44mean that's very truthful in some ways
17:45the good news is the gospel but in so
17:47far as they interpret it to mean they
17:49should only give good news about what's
17:50going on that's not helpful and that's
17:52not really thinking christianly thinking
17:54biblically about things so we need to
17:57have psalms of praise we also need to
17:59have lamentation that's a good word in
18:022006 you wrote a book on the politics of
18:04disaster which is a a very relevant
18:07topic for today looking back what advice
18:09from your earlier thinking would you say
18:11is still relevant for Christians in our
18:13current situation and what would you
18:15modify if anything I have to confess I
18:18haven't looked back at the book I I
18:20don't like I don't like to read uh we
18:23dug deep into the archives yeah yeah the
18:26um no because I'll tell you and this is
18:28one thing for you know all you all yall
18:32uh at an academic at an academic
18:33institution passive avoid passives
18:37academic writing is just terrible with
18:39passives and sometimes when I look back
18:41at books I wrote a while ago I see
18:43passives and no no no so anyway but to
18:47zero in on your question what I recall
18:50in that book is that well two things
18:53number one I was still writing and still
18:56am writing as a compassionate
18:58conservative
18:59so I tend to really look at and be
19:04joyful about decentralized things that
19:07book came out a year after Katrina so
19:10the first part of the book was about the
19:13hurricane and all the rescues they were
19:15involved and there are great stories
19:17great stories and some terrible stories
19:19terrible stories tended to involve
19:20Federal bureaucracy and although I'm not
19:22a fan of federal bureaucrats this was a
19:24particularly bad instance that they had
19:27a lot of red tape there were doctors and
19:29nurses who wanted to hurry to New
19:32Orleans but they had to First sit down
19:34with a dayong seminar about how to do
19:37things right how to fill out the forms
19:39how to do this and this and this they
19:40would they wanted to be there on the
19:42front lines and they had to jump through
19:44all these hoops so there were stupid
19:46things there and then there were great
19:47things people going out on their boats
19:50individual people going out on their
19:51boats the Cajun Navy to go rescue people
19:54who were on their houses and so forth
19:55the people who came through generously
19:57with churches giving people a place to
19:59stay and individual people giving people
20:02spare bedrooms and so forth churches
20:04being highly involved and you know some
20:06of the big organizations like you know
20:08Baptist relief and Samaritan's Purse and
20:11some of the others getting there very
20:13very quickly and knowing exactly what to
20:15do at a time when the federal government
20:17help was still days or weeks or months
20:20away so it was great just to see that
20:23anyway that was what the first part of
20:24the book was about and then trying to
20:26apply that emphasis on here's what
20:28churches can do and here's what they do
20:31do both nationally and abroad I've I've
20:33traveled quite a bit to lots and lots of
20:36countries and seeing what Christians do
20:38there including groups like Compassion
20:40International I went up the uh drove up
20:43the South American Highway through
20:44excuse me the Pan-American Highway
20:46through Central America stopping at
20:48Compassion places and seeing what they
20:50do it's it's great and these other
20:51groups seeing what I could well I could
20:54go on but enough anyway just seeing
20:56locally nationally internationally what
20:59Christians do that's far more effective
21:01than both our federal government and a
21:03lot of foreign governments tend to do
21:05that was good to see I did have a
21:07chapter in that book about pandemics and
21:10I think I'll have to go look again at it
21:12I we put a part of it in world we have a
21:14Saturday series every Saturday morning
21:16we put up in the world website a longer
21:18article sometimes a sermon sometimes uh
21:21a book so we put up a chapter from that
21:24so I need to actually go and and read it
21:27but I think I saw that there that we
21:29were not at all prepared this is back in
21:312006 but things really haven't changed
21:33that much and you know this is trouble
21:35but did I predict something which the
21:38really difficult thing about Corona
21:40virus itself it's not that big a deal
21:43compared to some other viruses but the
21:46nasty thing here is people can go around
21:47for days or weeks with no symptoms and
21:50be infecting others that is something
21:52really knew and I did not anticipate
21:54that at all and that's what makes this
21:56whole thing so Troublesome right now so
21:58I think I was pretty good on flu in
22:00general but not this particular devilish
22:03one we're now facing how is World
22:05magazine looking to inform and support
22:07the Christian Community in light of the
22:10current pandemic oh I'm real pleased
22:13with what we've done so far because not
22:15only in the magazine every two weeks but
22:17every day on our website we have street
22:20level stories about what people are
22:22doing we have I have four children and
22:24five grandkids now but when my kids were
22:26small we really like book by a
22:28children's author called Richard scary I
22:30know that doesn't ring a bell with you
22:32it's probably I I haven't read those go
22:34yeah they're still out there in print
22:36and books with titles like what do
22:37people do all day and just looking at
22:41okay here are Bakers and Barbers and
22:43truck drivers and you know what do
22:45people do all day so we have every day
22:47in World on their website we have a uh
22:50Richard scary's name it's it's SC a r r
22:53Y2 RS but we have you know scary stories
22:56scary Richard stories with one are scary
22:59Richard scary stories about what people
23:00do all day in isolation and you know we
23:04just day after day we're coming out with
23:06creative things people are doing ideas
23:07people have we have uh what's it called
23:10we have inside the outbreak which looks
23:12at what organizations are doing and
23:14these are Church groups businesses and
23:17so forth all kinds of organizations
23:19doing interesting creative things so I
23:21think that type of thing is a street
23:23level story when I go back to the 1918
23:27Spanish flu epidemic
23:29what I find most valuable in Reading
23:31read a bunch of histories of that what I
23:34find most valuable is the specific
23:36detail that people have not just general
23:39stories and this is something also very
23:41good for academic people and people who
23:42are who are going to be PS you want to
23:45stay if possible low on the ladder of
23:47abstraction high in the ladder of
23:49abstraction is dealing with vague
23:51Concepts the sermons people remember are
23:54based on important crucial biblical
23:58Concepts ceps that are sometimes
23:59abstract but they make the points with
24:01specific detail and particular stories
24:04and that's what we try to do
24:05journalistically as well so when I look
24:07at the Spanish Flu stories I'm not so
24:09much interested in the the big
24:11pronouncements and speeches people were
24:12giving but what exactly was happening at
24:15street level Where in Colorado if people
24:18want to be in a store a small shop only
24:21one person at a time can be in there
24:22they're using social distancing and
24:24anyone outside has to stay pretty much 6
24:26feet apart or what exactly happened with
24:29schools were closed and what did parents
24:32do and again this is what happened in
24:331918 at first they weren't aware of how
24:35terrible was going to be but once they
24:37started seeing it they quickly took
24:40action to basically develop social
24:42isolation in many many cities and that
24:44really saved particularly it moved from
24:46east to west and so the Western cities
24:48saw this and learned so that was useful
24:52but this is also you know we we are
24:54emphasizing with our reporters stay low
24:56on the ladder of abstraction give
24:57specific detail gritty detail which I
25:00think will be interesting and sometimes
25:02inspiring to people now give people good
25:03ideas but which historians 20 years or
25:06maybe 100 years from now if people by
25:08any chance are still looking at World
25:10magazine then this will be valuable to
25:12the historians at that time so that
25:14that's basically our goal to give
25:15specific detail stay low in the ladder
25:17of abstraction and show what's Happening
25:20all over the country with the Frontline
25:22people but then also people we often
25:24don't think about who are also heroes
25:26like the truck drivers who are making
25:28sure we have food so we want to tell
25:30those stories also well Dr alasi we
25:33couldn't be more thankful for your time
25:34with us today and the ministry that you
25:36lead at World magazine well thank you
25:38very much and I'm glad to be helpful and
25:41I hope a lot of people who are very good
25:43preachers are listening to this just
25:45because let me just say thing one thing
25:47here just because you're a pastor and
25:49and preaching does not mean you have to
25:51have a book uh so guard against that I
25:55hope people find this useful oh no it's
25:57been wonderful your idea is just light
25:59up with truth and insight so that's what
26:00we're most thankful for and we hope that
26:03you'll be able to join us again in the
26:04future well thank you all right thank
26:06you and God bless you
26:08all join us next time as we talk with Dr
26:12Derek
26:13Thomas in the meantime you can visit
26:15Ministry network.com
26:17deegree to learn about the new online
26:20offerings available at Westminster
26:22Theological Seminary

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