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Mark Cuban: The Brutal Truth About The Next Market Crash! — Transcript

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0:00AI is not smart. AI doesn't know the
0:02consequences of its actions. It doesn't
0:04have inherent ethics. Those companies
0:05keep on borrowing and spending more
0:07money in order to power all the AI, but
0:11they're borrowing more than they're
0:12making. We literally could get into a
0:14debt bubble. You do you think we're in a
0:15bubble, don't you?
0:16>> Yeah.
0:16>> What causes it to burst?
0:18>> I'll tell you this.
0:19>> So, what are the most sort of
0:20foundational things that needs to
0:21understand the Mark Cuban that we've all
0:22grown to love from the Shark Tank and
0:24the businesses and the Dallas Mavs and
0:26>> So, business was an area where I I was
0:28always ahead of the curve, no matter how
0:29old I was. Growing up, I went
0:31door-to-door in the neighborhood selling
0:32garbage bags, and that probably
0:34catapulted me more than anything cuz if
0:36you can go door-to-door and sell, you
0:37can do anything. Like on a Shark Tank,
0:39when somebody walked in and told me
0:40about their company, I knew exactly how
0:42I would sell it.
0:43>> What are the sort of consistent themes
0:45amongst all people that become an
0:47entrepreneur?
0:47>> Well, you've got to find one thing and
0:49be great at it. And then, find a way to
0:51turn that something into a business.
0:53Next, if you're going to do anything
0:54with technology, media, whatever it may
0:56be, you better be ahead of the curve
0:58because business is like a sport. If you
1:00don't keep on getting better and
1:01improving your game, you're not going to
1:03be able to compete. But, [music] what we
1:04don't talk about is what do I suck at?
1:07Suck at it.
1:08>> And one of the biggest mistakes I made
1:10>> was I was a jerk. I would yell. I would
1:11scream, and I found that I got a lot
1:13further by being nice than by being a
1:15dick.
1:16>> The last thing I wanted to ask you about
1:17is your more recent decisions around
1:18leaving Shark Tank, selling the Mavs.
1:20>> I'll tell you this.
1:22That tells you all you need to know.
1:24>> I've got some wonderful photos here that
1:26we
1:26>> Yeah, that's my brother Brian.
1:28>> Brian, he wrote you a letter.
1:30>> Oh my god, I'll probably start crying.
1:42>> Here is a strange fact. Most of the
1:44people watching this right now, about
1:4558% of you, aren't yet subscribed to
1:47this channel. Statistically, that is
1:49probably you. So, could I ask you a
1:51small favor? If this channel has ever
1:54given you any value at all, please could
1:55you do me a favor and hit the subscribe
1:57button? It costs [clears throat]
1:58nothing. It helps us more than you could
1:59know. And the bigger the channel gets,
2:01as you've seen, the more we can invest
2:02in the guests and the production. So,
2:04thank you so much and I hope you enjoy
2:05this episode.
2:08>> [music]
2:10>> Mark,
2:12>> There are
2:13so many things happening in the world at
2:15the moment and just specifically
2:16focusing in on business and technology
2:18and AI. One of the remarkable things I
2:20often reference about you is in spite of
2:23your success, you continue to
2:25self-educate.
2:27And I've watched this in you over
2:29multiple cycles of technology. When
2:31crypto became a thing, when AI showed
2:33up, one of the first things I see on my
2:35timeline is Mark Cuban going [laughter]
2:38back to school.
2:39>> Yeah, for sure.
2:39>> What's going on in your head at the
2:41moment?
2:41>> To me, business is like a sport. And if
2:44you don't keep on getting better and
2:46improving your game,
2:48you're not going to be able to compete.
2:49And if you're going to do anything with
2:51technology, media, whatever it may be,
2:54you better be ahead of the curve,
2:55otherwise there's going to be some kid
2:56in high school somewhere going to kick
2:58your ass. And I want to be the one doing
3:00the ass kicking instead of getting their
3:02ass kicked.
3:03>> What are the most sort of foundational
3:04things I need to know about your
3:06earliest contacts to understand the Mark
3:08Cuban that we've all grown to love and
3:09know from the Shark Tank and the
3:11businesses and the Dallas Mavs and
3:13>> I think I just grew up in a regular
3:15family and just had the piss and vinegar
3:18in me to always want to compete, like I
3:21said, and I was able to turn an idea
3:23into a business and be successful.
3:25>> And you had very um formative parents by
3:27the sounds of things.
3:27>> Yeah, I mean, I had great upbringing. My
3:30dad did upholstery on cars, pure blue
3:32collar. My mom did odd jobs.
3:35>> Of course, my dad.
3:35>> Yeah, that's my grandparents, my mom.
3:40My mom was only 20 when I was
3:41>> brother Brian, who's the middle brother,
3:43and my dad. That's when we lived on
3:44Meadowlark in Pittsburgh.
3:47>> Your father never made more than $40,000
3:49in his life.
3:49>> Never. No, he would be up work um and
3:52gone by the time we were leaving for
3:53school. He actually lost an eye when he
3:56was doing upholstery. There was a staple
3:58that broke when I was in sixth grade,
4:01but he just always was a grinder and
4:03just
4:04Yeah, amazing. I miss him.
4:07>> You miss him?
4:07>> I miss them both. Everywhere we went, he
4:10always had friends, and if he didn't
4:12know people there, they quickly became
4:13his friends. And I think that set a
4:15great example for my brothers and I more
4:17than anything.
4:18>> What are some of those sort of
4:19high-level lessons that you always
4:21reference come from him?
4:22>> You know, he would say things that like
4:23you don't live in the world you were
4:25born into. You know, today's the
4:26youngest you'll ever be. That type of
4:29thing where, you know, no matter what
4:30hustle I had going on, he was always
4:32supportive. Always.
4:34>> And what did you think you were going to
4:35be when you were older at that age in
4:37those photos?
4:38>> Oh, a baseball player.
4:39>> Really?
4:39>> [laughter]
4:40>> Yeah, I was good, but not good enough.
4:42Um, but then after that, it became
4:44apparent that I was going to be a
4:45business guy.
4:47>> I mean, I think it was apparent from
4:48your Yeah, I sold
4:50>> cards when I was a kid.
4:51>> Yeah.
4:51>> Oh my god, you got some good ones.
4:53>> I mean, you also started selling some of
4:54these out here as well.
4:55>> Yeah, so what I would do is
4:57>> [laughter]
4:57>> Yeah, so when I was like 9 or 10 years
5:00old, I would go to the local pharmacy,
5:03and they would sell packs of baseball
5:04cards. And I would buy a bunch of them,
5:06um, with my allowance, and then I would
5:08repackage them using like the comics and
5:10everything for the paper. Buy these for
5:13like I cost me like a quarter, buy them
5:15for 50 cents. You're guaranteed to get a
5:16Pittsburgh pirate like Roberto Clemente
5:19or Willie Stargell. And I would sell
5:21them and make money, then I'd go and
5:23turn it around and make more.
5:25And that literally was my first start in
5:27hustling. And then one day, my dad was
5:30playing poker with his buddies, you
5:31know, they'd rotate to each other's
5:33houses, and he they were at our house,
5:36and I went in there to grab a donut, and
5:38I was like, "Dad, I want a new pair of
5:40basketball shoes." And he looks at my
5:41feet, and he goes, "Those shoes work.
5:43When you have a job, you can buy
5:45whatever you want." I'm like, "Dad, I'm
5:4712." And one of his buddies who had to
5:49have been drunk was like, "Hey, I got
5:51something you can sell. I've got boxes
5:52of garbage bags that I'll sell to you
5:55for $3 and you can sell them for six."
5:57And literally, I went door-to-door in
5:59the neighborhood and I'd be like,
6:01"Hi, I'm your neighbor Mark. Do you use
6:03garbage bags?" Easy sell, right? And
6:06that probably catapulted me more than
6:08anything cuz if you can go to
6:09door-to-door and sell,
6:11you can do anything.
6:12>> This whole idea of selling
6:14is um is sort of very top of mind for
6:16you in terms of the one of the ultimate
6:17skills of building becoming an
6:19entrepreneur.
6:20And and I it's so funny cuz I spent a
6:21lot of time in call centers when I was
6:22younger doing cold calls, but I always
6:24say that the best sales experience is
6:26door-to-door sales.
6:27>> Or call or call call centers, right?
6:29Every no gets you closer to a yes,
6:31right? Just knowing how to deal with
6:33people telling you no and how to deal
6:34with objections and how to respond
6:36quickly. It just trains your mind to be
6:38quick. And once you can sell, I mean,
6:41you have a job for life.
6:43>> Why is selling so important as it
6:44relates to becoming an entrepreneur?
6:46>> No business has ever succeeded without
6:47sales. And if you don't think your
6:49product or service is so good that
6:52you're dying to sell it, that you think
6:55that by talking to somebody about
6:57whatever product it is, you're not
6:59helping them, right? Cuz that's the
7:01whole point of sales. You know, when you
7:02were in that call center, what did you
7:04sell?
7:04>> Uh everything. Uh windows, doors,
7:06conservatories, double glazing.
7:07>> Right, right. And it was all about
7:08helping them. And you'd have the
7:09objections and I I'd go sell it I was
7:11selling magazines door-to-door. Once you
7:13learn how to sell, once you learn how to
7:15deal with objections, once you your mind
7:18is spinning waiting and reacting just
7:21like you did in a call center, what
7:23can't you sell?
7:24>> Are there any principles of being a good
7:26sales person? Or even in you know, on
7:28Shark Tank, when you see someone come in
7:29and they're great at sales, what are
7:31those principles?
7:32>> You care.
7:34You know your product. You want to help
7:35people. You're not trying to convince
7:37them to do something against their
7:38interest. You're trying to understand
7:40and learn their interest and help them
7:42achieve their goals or whatever your
7:44product may have happen to do. It may
7:46be, hey, you don't have to go to the
7:47store and pick up a back or it may be
7:50when you're selling something, you know,
7:51windows. You know, you don't want to
7:53look through those dirty windows. You
7:54know, you know there's a crack. You know
7:56your electricity bill is up way too high
7:59because of your windows and we're here
8:00to replace them and for only $17 a month
8:03will save you, you know, it'll more than
8:05pay for itself in the electricity bill,
8:07right? Like on a Shark Tank
8:09when somebody walked in and told me
8:11about their company, I knew exactly how
8:13I would sell it or could not sell it.
8:15And once you can do that,
8:17you're always going to be able to get a
8:18job. And if you are an entrepreneur or
8:22want to be an entrepreneur and you find
8:23something that you love and a product or
8:26service you love, then selling it's
8:27easy.
8:28>> You know, oftentimes we hear about
8:30people becoming
8:31wildly successful billionaires because
8:33they came up with some tech idea. It was
8:35their first thing, like a Zuckerberg.
8:37>> Right.
8:37>> And it becomes this huge success and
8:38they're like 25.
8:39>> Right.
8:40>> So sometimes when we're like 32,
8:42>> [laughter]
8:42>> So Mr. Ball, right?
8:43>> we missed the boat.
8:45>> Yeah.
8:45>> But then when I read your story, you
8:47know, I think you were like 31 years
8:48old, 32 years old and your first
8:50business was sold for $2 million, which
8:51is a
8:52>> It was sold for five and netted two.
8:54>> You mean netted two, okay. What is the
8:55big misconception that like young people
8:58these days have about what it takes,
9:00whether it's in terms of sacrifice or
9:02time or patience or compounding skills
9:04because they are incredibly impatient, I
9:06think.
9:07>> Yeah, I mean, I was just as impatient,
9:09but I think it really depends on your
9:11personal circumstances. Like I had
9:13nothing to lose. I was broke.
9:16You [laughter] know, I had gotten fired
9:17from a job, so starting MicroSolutions
9:19was an easy choice.
9:21I was living six guys in a three-bedroom
9:23apartment, didn't have my own bedroom,
9:25so it was like, why not? And I remember
9:27being terrified and thinking, okay, I've
9:29been in business 1 month, that's a win.
9:313 months, 6 months, 9 months. I have
9:33$15,000 in accounts receivable, you
9:36know, I'm on my way of moving out of
9:38this [ __ ] I live in. So, it really
9:41depends on your personal circumstances,
9:42but I I always tell young entrepreneurs,
9:44like if you're broke and you got nothing
9:46to lose,
9:47you know, even if you're working a job,
9:49like I was working as a bartender and
9:51you know, go out and do what you got to
9:52do and start what you've got to start. I
9:55think one of the big misconceptions is
9:57A, you have to raise money
9:59and B,
10:01if you do raise money, hitting big sales
10:03numbers is like the ultimate
10:05end-all-be-all as opposed to being
10:07profitable. For MicroSolutions, our
10:10entire 8-year existence, we were
10:12profitable every single month. I mean,
10:14we made sure that we sold enough and
10:17kept our costs in line so that I was
10:19going to be able to stay alive and and
10:21keep on moving forward. And I think kids
10:23today, they hear the stories about the
10:25Zuckerbergs and you know, the Sam
10:27Altmans and it's like billions of
10:29dollars by the time you're, you know,
10:3112. Um and they think, okay, that's the
10:35way I'll do it. They went out to Silicon
10:36Valley and they raised all this money
10:39and they don't even realize that the
10:41greatest number of successful people
10:43aren't the billionaires, right? It's the
10:45people that have made a few million, 5
10:47million, 10 million, 25, 50, 100 million
10:50dollars. There's a multiple of number of
10:53people in that those set of
10:55circumstances and I'm not saying it's
10:57easy to get there, but it's doable,
10:59right? It's not a Silicon Valley dream,
11:01it's the American dream. And it's where
11:03you are and what you can do and what
11:06skills you have to accomplish it that
11:08makes the difference when you get
11:10started.
11:10>> What are if I'm trying to become a
11:11millionaire, let's say. What are the
11:13sort of consistent
11:15themes amongst all people that become
11:17millionaires, 10, you know, a 10
11:19millionaire, 100 millionaire? Are is
11:20there like certain principles that
11:23you're going to need regardless of what
11:24industry you're playing in? So, we
11:25talked about sales
11:26>> Yeah, sales obviously, but you know, to
11:29be a millionaire, I think you've just
11:31got to be really good at something.
11:34And then find a way to turn that
11:35something into a business.
11:37It may be sales, it may be programming,
11:40it may be tinkering, it may be drawing,
11:43it may be a create being a creator,
11:45whatever it may be, but
11:47if you're not good at it,
11:50there's no business that you start
11:51that's going to make you a millionaire.
11:53You know, you got to be good at
11:54something. This brings me to the the
11:55point about focus cuz lots of
11:57entrepreneurs, I'm sure you get this a
11:58lot in Shark Tank, but outside of the
12:00the tank is they think that having three
12:03ideas or three things
12:05is increasing their odds. Right. No,
12:07that's ridiculous. Or they say, um I
12:09want to be an entrepreneur, what should
12:11I do?
12:11>> [laughter]
12:11>> Right? What business should I start? I'm
12:13like, oh my god. No, you've got to find
12:16one thing and be great at it. Cuz once
12:18you're great at something, doors open up
12:21wide. Because if it's not your company,
12:23then they got to keep you because you're
12:25great. And whoever you compete with in
12:28that company, they're looking at it and
12:30saying, wow, you know, Steven's great,
12:32you know, or Mark's great. And then
12:34you're like, I'm great at this. Maybe if
12:37I want to be an entrepreneur, I can
12:38start a business about what I'm great
12:40at.
12:40>> What are you most likely to become great
12:42at?
12:42>> Where you spend your time.
12:44Like people think it's about passion.
12:46Oh, I'm passionate. I was passionate to
12:48be a baseball player,
12:50basketball player. Didn't help me at
12:52all, right? And I think when you realize
12:55where you're spending your time is where
12:57you find things that you like to do. And
12:59when you like to do something, if it's
13:02convertible to a business at all, then
13:04you keep on getting better and better
13:06and better cuz it's like anything else,
13:08whether it's tech, selling windows,
13:11right? Whatever it is, installing
13:13windows.
13:14When you start realizing you're better
13:16than the people around you, your
13:18confidence goes up, your willingness to
13:20learn more goes up, you want to find how
13:22you can be even better so you could be
13:24the absolute best. When those things
13:26happen,
13:28you can start a company and there's no
13:30limit to what you can do.
13:32>> I've spent a lot of time recently
13:33thinking about um long-termism as an
13:35idea. And what I mean by this is it's
13:37just interesting that when you take a
13:38longer time view to almost anything,
13:40like you have in many sort of endeavors
13:42in your career.
13:43>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah, right.
13:45>> I was I was thinking about the Mavericks
13:46that um
13:47>> Yep.
13:47>> it's it's interesting how today's
13:49decisions change and how that creates a
13:51moat.
13:51>> Yeah.
13:52>> Because we we live in a world I think
13:53where people plan sometimes in quarterly
13:55cycles or sometimes they plan in 5-year
13:57seasons. But there's a couple of
13:58entrepreneurs that I look out into the
13:59world and think, "Oh, they were thinking
14:01like 10, 20 years."
14:03>> That wasn't me.
14:04>> Oh, really? [laughter] Yeah.
14:05>> No. What about with with What about with
14:07the Mavericks though?
14:07>> So when I got into the with the
14:09Mavericks and I bought the Mavericks,
14:10>> which is a basketball team for anyone
14:12>> Basketball team, yeah, in the NBA. And
14:14so I was a basketball junkie,
14:16>> Mhm.
14:16>> right? And I was a season ticket holder
14:18and went to a game and I was like,
14:20"Wait,
14:21maybe I could buy this team, right?" Cuz
14:23I just made all this money and I was
14:24like, "That sounds fun." And I did it
14:27not because it was a business, not
14:28because I saw this long, you know,
14:30horizon of owning the team. I thought,
14:32"This could just really be fun." And
14:35what could be better than, you know,
14:36going and shooting baskets with Dirk
14:38Nowitzki or Steve Nash and Michael
14:40Finley. So that's what got me into it.
14:42But I didn't even really look at it as a
14:43business. I looked at it more as
14:46an intellectual endeavor, right? An
14:49intellectual challenge. Can I take a
14:51team that was awful and got voted the
14:53worst professional sports franchise of
14:55the previous decade and turn it into a
14:58winning team? And that was my goal. And
15:01for a long time, it was stressful cuz
15:04I'm so competitive. Losing a game, it
15:06would take me 2 days to get over a loss.
15:08But then it got to the point, you know,
15:10not long before I sold where
15:13in my opinion, it went from being about
15:15basketball to being about valuations.
15:18And it went from, "Hey, I love
15:19basketball and this is all about
15:21basketball, to the NBA being more about,
15:25"Okay, how much are these teams worth?"
15:26And the conversation is not being about,
15:28"How can we make the game better?" But,
15:30"How can we make it more valuable?" And
15:32to me,
15:33that just created more stress, you know,
15:35because in order to compete, you had to
15:37be good at real estate and
15:39things that had nothing to do with
15:40basketball. So, I wish I could tell you
15:42that I was like, "Okay, I I have this
15:4425-year horizon." But, I can't tell you
15:46I never thought I would sell. But, then
15:49things changed around me, and I guess,
15:50you know, having kids changed me as
15:52well.
15:52>> You bought the team for What was it?
15:53$200 million roughly?
15:54>> 285, yeah.
15:55>> And you sold it for
15:57>> 4.3.
15:58>> Billion?
15:58>> Yeah.
16:00>> What I find interesting is the point you
16:01just made about you'll become great at
16:04the things where you want to spend your
16:05time on them. And again, the point you
16:06made before that was entrepreneurs, when
16:08they come to you and say, "I want to be
16:09an entrepreneur." And then they go
16:11looking for an idea, tend to fail. This
16:13is a prime example of you doing exactly
16:14what you described, where it was
16:16somewhere you wanted to spend your time,
16:17which meant that you became good at it.
16:20>> Yeah. Yeah.
16:21>> I saw how the team's performance
16:24drastically improved over the years that
16:25were
16:26you were the majority owner, but also
16:28some of the things you implemented
16:29around data
16:31and performance, um, and technology into
16:33the Mavs,
16:35and it becomes a great business.
16:37But, you never
16:38>> yeah. Not a Turned out Turned out to be
16:39a great business, yeah. You just don't
16:41know, but when you're doing something
16:42you love, right? It's the old cliché,
16:43you know, you don't you don't work
16:44[clears throat] a day in your life, but
16:45it's true.
16:46>> How do you define the success? Waking up
16:48in the morning with a smile on your
16:49face, excited about the day.
16:51>> Mhm.
16:51>> [clears throat]
16:52>> And that's hard.
16:53Most people can't do that. Most people
16:55look and they say, "Okay, I got to go to
16:56work."
16:57You know, I got to do this. I've got
16:59these five things I got to get done and
17:00or, you know, whatever. I was, even when
17:03I was broke, I was fired up, you know,
17:06and the Mavs,
17:08you know, got me It was It was amazing
17:10cuz sports are so much different than
17:12every other business. You can work for a
17:14company like Google and they have the
17:15best quarter ever or they set records,
17:17you know, Apple becomes the most
17:18valuable company in the world, nobody
17:20throws a parade.
17:22>> [laughter]
17:22>> You win a championship, the whole city's
17:24on fire and they're throwing parades and
17:26the a half a million a million people
17:28converge on downtown in 100 degrees heat
17:31to to scream at the players and
17:33everybody. So, this is just so different
17:35and that that's what made the Mavs
17:36special.
17:37>> Is that amongst your best days in your
17:39life winning the championship?
17:40>> Uh business-wise, yeah, for sure. Yeah,
17:42and I'll tell you this, you know,
17:44it was so anti-climactic internally for
17:47me. I've seen so many games where we
17:49thought we were going to win and ended
17:51up losing them and they had LeBron and,
17:53you know, uh etc. and I was like, okay,
17:57they're we're up by 10 points with 30
17:59seconds to go. There's no chance that
18:01we're losing this and then they hit a
18:03three, I'm like, oh, shut the [ __ ] up,
18:04Mark, right? And then we got to the
18:06point where we won, I'm like, okay, the
18:08clouds should, you know, open up and the
18:10sun should shine and I just realized,
18:13oh, this is great. I'm screaming and
18:14yelling, but
18:16now what?
18:17>> Oh, [ __ ] Yeah.
18:18>> And it wasn't so much how I felt and
18:20hugging all the guys and hugging
18:22everybody, but it was how the city felt
18:25and that's what really made it special
18:27when I would take the trophy to schools,
18:30I would take it to bars, I would take it
18:32to restaurants, I would take it to my
18:34kids' events, whatever it was and to see
18:37their eyes light up. Just that communal
18:39joy, that's what made it special.
18:42>> You said there you know, there's many
18:43people that are listening that are
18:44basically trapped. They they feel
18:46trapped. They feel stuck in a 9-to-5
18:48job. They living paycheck to paycheck.
18:51Um I've been there, you've been there.
18:54What advice would you have for them?
18:55They might have
18:57a thousand dollars in savings
18:58>> Mhm.
18:59>> and they're trying to get out of that
19:00situation. Is there some type of life
19:01life raft? Are there are there
19:02principles of how to escape?
19:04>> I say this to new college graduates all
19:06the time. Don't go get the best job cuz
19:09that's the hardest to find. Don't get
19:11the perfect job cuz those are hard to
19:12find. Just get a job. And when you have
19:15a job, just work to be really good at
19:18it. The second part of that is you have
19:19to be really honest with yourself, cuz
19:21nobody looks at the job they're doing
19:22and says, "I suck." Right? They're like,
19:24"Oh, I'm great at this. They just don't
19:26realize it." No, you have to be honest
19:28and talk to people around you. But when
19:29you're really good at something, that's
19:31when doors do open up. And even in the
19:34worst possible job, you know, you could
19:36be working at a McDonald's, at a Dairy
19:38Queen, but there's a path. You know, and
19:40if you understand how to move up that
19:42path, even though your life mission
19:43isn't to be the manager of of a
19:45McDonald's or a Dairy Queen or whatever,
19:47the fact that you can show a future
19:49employer that you moved up the line, and
19:52then when they ask for a reference, they
19:54said, "Steven was incredibly valuable.
19:56We're really sorry, you know, that he's
19:58leaving. We tried to keep him."
20:00That's what you need, and that can
20:01happen in 2 3 years. It's just most
20:03people don't want to think like that.
20:05You know, you get in your head and you
20:07get inside yourself. It's just like,
20:09"Oh, this is miserable, yada yada yada."
20:11>> And it's funny looking backwards on
20:12journeys like yours, where it's often
20:15jobs that most people wouldn't think
20:17were glamorous that end up being the
20:18most sort of important or formative to
20:20your skill stack. You were talking about
20:21door-to-door sales people. You mentioned
20:23what is it, Dairy Queens there or like
20:24McDonald's. I I think I remember that
20:26Jeff Bezos worked at McDonald's, and
20:28this is really where he learned about
20:30this sort of like customer obsession,
20:31customer service.
20:32>> Yes. You start to understand. Yeah, boy,
20:35Marley's pub. [laughter]
20:38But yeah, you learn how to deal with
20:40people, how to deal with customers. That
20:43can happen in any job. It's just I read
20:45this book in high school. It was called
20:47Why Men Rebel. And it said, "Most people
20:50have aspirations that are up here, and
20:53when their real lives they feel like are
20:55down here here,
20:56>> Mhm.
20:57>> they you know, a lot of people won't
20:59just accept it okay, cuz no one wants to
21:01think, "I'm not going to do or not to
21:03accomplish anything." So that's when
21:05they start fighting and rebelling and
21:07joining, you know, groups that are
21:09counter to what's happening in society.
21:11And And I think understanding
21:15that in yourself, you know, you have to
21:16be at least self-aware a little bit to
21:19understand that
21:20it's okay to be frustrated, but you
21:22can't let it overtake your life. You've
21:24got to be able to put yourself in a
21:26position to at least feel better about
21:28yourself, even if it's not perfect.
21:30>> Did you rebel?
21:32>> Uh my whole life, yeah. I was always
21:35counterculture.
21:36>> [laughter]
21:37>> I remember being in high school, and I
21:39was 4 in shorter, 25 lb heavier.
21:44You can't tell here, but I these two
21:45teeth are caps. And cuz my parents
21:48didn't have any money, I ran into a
21:49bicycle, it broke my teeth, and I got
21:52caps that were aluminum
21:55steel. That's what they were. They were
21:57steel. And I'm 16 years old. Like and
22:00people like my friends were like,
22:02"Ah, the reflection."
22:03But you just
22:05>> [sighs and gasps]
22:06>> You just have to find your path. You
22:07can't get down on yourself.
22:09>> One of the things that a lot of people
22:10who feel stuck um are probably thinking
22:13about is they're probably wait trying to
22:14wait mentally the amount of sacrifice
22:16it's going to take. And when I I've
22:18heard you talk about hard work and the
22:20sacrifices that you had to take to build
22:22yourself from this sort of 22-year-old
22:24who
22:25is in Pittsburgh, I believe at the time,
22:28to starting your first business which
22:29ended up being acquired Micro Solutions.
22:31What does the sacrifice look like? If I
22:33was a fly on the wall when you I'm
22:35presumably had a job at that time, and
22:37then you started building the business.
22:39What would I have seen in terms of your
22:41How did your life look?
22:42>> So, when I got to Dallas, moved in with,
22:45like I said, five roommates, didn't have
22:47a bed, I just slept on the floor. I
22:49mean, that's example of sacrifice,
22:51living in a [ __ ] Got a job working
22:53at night as a bartender, but then almost
22:55immediately got a job working at a
22:57software store. And that was going to be
22:59for me my first step into a real job,
23:02right, where I could have a future. But
23:03I got fired 9 months later. And
23:06>> Cool.
23:06>> I wanted to move out of the [ __ ] I
23:08lived in, and I was going to be looking
23:09at a $1,500 commission, which would have
23:12done it for me. So I called my boss, and
23:14I'm like, "I need to go pick up this
23:15check. You'll make money, I'll make
23:17money. Can I have somebody to cover
23:19opening up the retail store that I
23:20worked in?" And he was like, "No, I need
23:22you in the store."
23:24And I made the executive decision to go
23:26pick up the check, thinking when I
23:27brought it in,
23:29everything would be well. He fired me on
23:30the spot.
23:32Fired me, and I'm like, "Okay, you know,
23:34I suck as an employee.
23:36>> [clears throat]
23:36>> This is not what I want. I'm going to
23:38start my own company." And I don't know
23:40if I'd call it sacrifice, but I'd call
23:42it deferring immediate gratification.
23:45You know, I knew that it was going to
23:46take time for me to get any level of
23:49success to move out of that apartment. I
23:52was going to have to sell hard, learn
23:54stuff I didn't understand. This was the
23:56early days of the PC revolution when PCs
23:58were starting to happen. I don't know
24:00the [ __ ] but either does anybody else.
24:02In my mind, when it came to software,
24:05there was only going to be one person
24:07who understood any given software better
24:09than me, and that would be the person
24:10who wrote it.
24:12And that if I busted my ass, I was tied
24:14for second, right? When that's new
24:16program like Lotus 1-2-3, if you
24:18remember that one. Kid, no. What? Shut
24:20up.
24:21It was a very It was a second
24:23spreadsheet. That was a big spreadsheet.
24:24And so anyways, my idea was I was going
24:26to put in the time to learn that
24:28software, however many software packages
24:30that is, more than everybody. And I
24:33literally would stay in that retail
24:35store overnight, or I'd take the
24:37computer back to the [ __ ] apartment
24:39and just sit there and teach myself and
24:40teach myself. Read the manuals over and
24:43over because if I can get ahead of
24:45everybody else to be in second by
24:46myself, I would have a huge edge over
24:49everybody else in my
24:51in for MicroSolutions. Just the same
24:53with AI. New AI comes out, new model
24:56comes out, new software comes out,
24:59there's the creator and everybody else
25:00is tied for second and I'm going to kick
25:02their ass by learning it faster, better.
25:04>> And AI is obviously like the the time of
25:06the moment in business. How's How
25:08significant do you think this is?
25:10>> Um I mean, I've been in the tech
25:11business a long time. This dwarfs every
25:14everything else in aggregate. This is
25:16Yeah, this is so much bigger. With AI,
25:18you can just say, "Hey, I need to learn
25:19more about Stephen Bartlett. Tell me
25:21everything there is to know." It's able
25:23to make me a lot more productive. And I
25:25think it would make anybody more
25:26productive and I think that's the beauty
25:28of of artificial intelligence and from
25:31an educational perspective of done
25:32right, it's a democratizer of
25:35information. You have access to every
25:37library, every book, every speech
25:40everywhere and so if you're interested,
25:43there's nothing you can't learn.
25:45>> Everywhere I go around the world, people
25:46are asking me whether this is this
25:47technology is the real deal and business
25:49owners and entrepreneurs are asking like
25:51how they should be responding in a
25:53moment like this. Cuz in my life, I'm 30
25:5534 years old now, there's almost no
25:57precedents of such a disruptive
25:58technology. It can be quite threatening
26:00to many people because it there's this
26:03sort of process of they call it creative
26:04destruction where it like rips down the
26:06old way of doing things.
26:07>> sure.
26:07>> And in that, it could be ripping down
26:09your identity, your degree, your job.
26:12>> And so there was a psychologist called
26:13Leon Festinger that coined a term called
26:15cognitive dissonance which even hearing
26:16the term helped me understand myself and
26:18my feelings which is the the discomfort
26:20you feel when something sort of
26:21threatens or conflicts with what you
26:22know. The whole world is experiencing
26:24this right now.
26:25>> Yep. All at once globally.
26:27>> And what people are doing some people
26:29are doing is they, you know, in an
26:31attempt to alleviate the dissonance,
26:32bury their heads in the sand, deny it.
26:35Not It won't come for me. I'll be fine.
26:37>> Right. Yeah, that's not going to happen.
26:39Yeah, not going to happen. Like For me
26:41with AI, I I see it as an opportunity.
26:43Wherever there's change, there's
26:44opportunity. You know, something's
26:46changing and to your point the cognitive
26:48dissonance, people are are avoiding it
26:50and not dealing with it at all. And then
26:53there's others who are picking up on it
26:55and saying, let's go. Let's go. And
26:57that's always been my approach because
26:59you know most people aren't going to do
27:01the work.
27:01>> Yeah.
27:02>> You know, there was an old basketball
27:04coach, Bobby Knight from Indiana
27:05University. And when I was in college,
27:08he was on 60 Minutes and he had this one
27:10line. And my jaw just dropped. I went,
27:12oh [ __ ] that's it. That's my line. He
27:14goes, everybody's got the will to win.
27:17But it's only those with the will to
27:18prepare that actually do win.
27:21And I'm like,
27:23bingo. That's all I needed. You know,
27:24you get one little line as a kid in your
27:26head and I'm just like, let's go.
27:28>> Problem is you never see people prepare.
27:31>> You may not see it. Right. Yeah, so
27:32there's no role model in preparation,
27:34right?
27:34>> gets to see you going and taking the
27:35software from the store and taking it
27:36home to the show apartment cuz there was
27:38no cameras, there was no interest at
27:39that point.
27:40>> Yep.
27:40>> So like we almost don't appreciate that
27:42that's part of the win.
27:43But they probably saw you on the like
27:44the double-decker bus with the trophy
27:46with the mask. [laughter]
27:47>> Yeah, right.
27:48>> So, you know, this is the illusion of
27:49like success, I guess, in this context.
27:51>> That's why we have conversations like
27:53this.
27:53>> Yeah.
27:53>> Yeah, to convey that. That's why you've
27:55been so successful.
27:56>> Well, no, it's it but but this is why I
27:57love having these conversations because
27:59it it's almost counter narrative to
28:01Instagram
28:02>> Mhm.
28:02>> to hear that you spent years and years
28:04>> it's even worse. Like, okay, so my
28:0516-year-old son, 17-year-old, just
28:07turned, right? Drove me nuts because,
28:10you know how the algorithms work, right?
28:13Whatever you see, you get more of. And
28:15each of us have our own unique algorithm
28:17on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, right?
28:19Nobody sees the same stuff. And
28:21obviously he was interested in business
28:23because he would come up to me and show
28:25me these get-rich-quick schemes. You
28:27know, you're going to drop ship. You're
28:29going to do, you know, shoe drops. He
28:31even There was one where they had a
28:33blaster, you know, water blaster so you
28:35can clean sidewalks. And I'm like, no,
28:38right? If those were good businesses,
28:40they wouldn't be telling you about them.
28:42They would just be doing them. Or make
28:44all this money in the stock market.
28:45Nobody who has an edge in the stock
28:47market is selling it. They're using it.
28:49And the the point of all that is
28:53people, particularly now in this social
28:54media world where you just get more of
28:56what you want, they get misled.
28:59>> Mhm.
28:59>> Section 230, the protections on the
29:01internet, and the fact that that
29:03protects algorithms, I think really is a
29:05big part of holding kids back these
29:07days. Because that's why you talk about
29:10not seeing people do the preparatory
29:12work. You know, not seeing what happens
29:14behind the scenes. Because that doesn't
29:17get more views or more engagement on
29:19Instagram or Tik Tok.
29:21>> Mhm.
29:21>> No one's going to Okay, Mark's looking
29:23at this, reading a manual.
29:25No, right? And it's tougher for society
29:28today. You know, we talk about socialism
29:30or capitalism.
29:33No one knows what it actually means.
29:34They just whatever is presented to them
29:37in, you know, a 10-second bite, and you
29:39see it enough,
29:40>> Mhm.
29:40>> you presume it must be true.
29:42>> That's why I think I asked about
29:43long-termism is because I'm trying to
29:45figure out what the sort of, you know,
29:46you said earlier, you said, "You know
29:47most people won't do it."
29:49And right now with algorithms and a
29:51certain sort of online narrative, that I
29:53think there becomes like a winning
29:55opportunity to do the opposite. So,
29:57get-rich-quick schemes, the opposite of
29:58that is like taking a long-term
30:00approach, doing the preparation,
30:02mastering a skill,
30:03>> Yep.
30:03>> and setting yourself a 10-year time
30:04horizon as opposed to like I'm going to
30:06be rich next year.
30:06>> Even Charlie Munger [clears throat] used
30:07to say it all the time, right? There's
30:09no delayed gratification anymore. Never.
30:12And if you don't realize you have to do
30:14the work first, you're not going to get
30:16the gratification.
30:16>> And Charlie and
30:18and Warren are like obsessed with
30:19compounding.
30:20>> Oh, yeah, for sure. And they they were
30:22the kings of it, yeah, [laughter]
30:23for sure.
30:24>> That's one of the things I I always
30:25found fascinating about them when I
30:26started reading about why they were such
30:27great investors is that I read that
30:28they'd be like a couple of years where
30:30they wouldn't invest any money at all.
30:31>> No.
30:32>> What the [ __ ]
30:33>> No, I
30:34>> [laughter]
30:34>> and I've tried to do the same thing. And
30:36again, just trying to not Don't just
30:38jump into the market. Jump in the
30:39market. There's always going to be a
30:41bear market, and that's where the money
30:43was made. During COVID, you know, that's
30:45I just started buying up everything when
30:47it hit, and I crushed it. You know, you
30:49can say that's wrong in some respects,
30:51right? But now it's just like you see
30:53these stocks and everything just go, you
30:55know, AI-related stuff just going to the
30:57moon and all this debt. I'm like, just
30:59be patient. You can invest a little bit
31:01for the fun of it, but be patient. Have
31:03some cash because at some point it's
31:05going to turn. And when that happens,
31:07that's when the real magic happens, when
31:09all the real money is made. The delayed
31:11gratification.
31:12>> You do think we're in a bubble, don't
31:13you? I heard you talk about this.
31:14>> I think we're in a bubble, but not the
31:17same as the internet bubble back in
31:182000, 2001.
31:20>> [snorts]
31:20>> I think what's different now is
31:23everything's a meme stock.
31:26Bitcoin is a meme stock, right? Pick
31:29Micron, you know, pick Google, Apple,
31:32they're meme stocks. And the reason I
31:34say that is by watching how stocks move
31:37with just a little bit of news. So, a
31:40company might miss earnings by a penny
31:43or only beat by a penny, and the stock
31:45will be down 18%.
31:48The intrinsic value of that company
31:49hasn't changed 18%. It's just that
31:52buyers and sellers move in and move out
31:54very quickly based off of anticipated um
31:58information as opposed to the net
32:00present value of the future cash flows
32:01and all that. We're trading them like
32:03baseball cards.
32:04You know, there's no intrinsic value to
32:06this. It's just perceived value and what
32:08you think somebody else will pay for it.
32:10And I think we're in a bubble for that
32:12real very reason. What causes it to
32:16burst? I have no idea.
32:17>> Because we said, you know, this
32:18technology, AI, is without precedents.
32:21Uh you know, it is quite tempting for
32:23someone like me to put, you know, put a
32:24couple of dollars into
32:25>> Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
32:28>> Because you think maybe this is the like
32:29the last technology.
32:30>> Right, because even, you know,
32:32I don't think it'll be the last
32:33technology cuz it'll always Something
32:35will always happen. There'll always be
32:36somebody smarter than the AI, I believe.
32:39But look at Dell and Amazon. They were
32:42companies whose stocks went from way up
32:45high, got crushed when the internet
32:47bubble burst. Amazon was losing money
32:49hand over foot. I mean, people used to
32:51give them a hard time because they were
32:53losing so much money.
32:55Now they were trillions of dollars and
32:56if you would just stuck it out with
32:57them. So there will will be winners. I
33:00just don't know which company is it?
33:01Anthropic? Is it Open AI? I don't know.
33:04>> You think there'll always be someone
33:05smarter than the AI?
33:06>> Yeah, for sure.
33:07>> What do you mean by that? I've never
33:08heard that.
33:09>> Take a model
33:11from Anthropic, AI model for Anthropic
33:13or Google Gemini or ChatGPT Open AI,
33:16right? It gets released. It's
33:18immediately out of date.
33:19>> Mhm.
33:20>> [clears throat]
33:20>> Immediately. The brilliance of this
33:22conversation is not incorporated in any
33:25model anywhere. Right? AI is not smart.
33:29It just knows how to use statistics
33:32basically to predict the next word. It's
33:35predictive. It's not deterministic.
33:37Meaning if you asked
33:39four different AIs the same question,
33:41you're going to get four different
33:42answers. If you modify a question to the
33:46same AI
33:47just marginally that shouldn't change
33:49the meaning, it'll give you a different
33:50answer every time.
33:52That doesn't work in the real world. AI
33:54doesn't know the consequences of its
33:56actions. AI doesn't have inherent
33:58ethics. AI, you know, can't take video
34:02and consume it or absorb it, at least
34:03not yet. If I'm standing at a four-way
34:06intersection and there's cars going back
34:07and forth and I have video in my phone
34:10and, you know, the best models ever and
34:13I have a seeing eye dog right here
34:14>> Mhm.
34:15>> I'm letting the seeing eye dog take me
34:16across the street before I let the AI
34:18take me across the street. It's always
34:20going to be behind. There's always going
34:22to be a latency and so many things can
34:24change in a blink of the eye in this
34:26world that there's always going to be a
34:28human who says, "Uh, you know what? I
34:31can do this better because what all
34:33these other companies are competing with
34:35their models to try to, you know, hit
34:37these benchmarks and outperforming these
34:38benchmarks or do um recursive
34:41self-improvement, so it just keeps on
34:43training itself more and more. It
34:45doesn't have access. A 2-year-old
34:47sitting on a high chair with a sippy cup
34:51knows that if it pushes the sippy cup
34:53off the high chair,
34:55Mom's going to come running and it knows
34:57it's going to crack up, right? AI is not
34:59going to figure that out ever.
35:01>> Do you know if you if you plot if you
35:03think of it as like an exponential
35:04technology, this is what I always I
35:06always try and cuz it's tempting to
35:08think of it as a sort of a static state.
35:10I'm thinking of like a graph here, like
35:12where it kind of goes like this.
35:14But these technologies from even what
35:15I've observed with every new release
35:17seem to be almost like this.
35:20So it's quite hard like even think about
35:22full self-driving. Like my Tesla drives
35:24itself and apparently the the crash rate
35:26is significantly lower than if a human
35:27was driving. Of course. If I imagine it
35:30as an exponential,
35:32at some point
35:34this shit's going to be pretty
35:35>> Except
35:36>> Yeah. Except
35:38there just like you see the protest
35:40about data centers.
35:41>> Yeah.
35:42>> When we talked about why men rebel, a
35:44book I haven't thought about since high
35:46school, right?
35:47People are going to rebel.
35:50People are going to create their own
35:51communities where there is if it's that
35:53dominant, there'll be people say, "I
35:55don't want that in my life." There'll be
35:57communes and kibbutzes where there's no
36:00technology. There There's something
36:01called adversarial um actions for AI
36:05where
36:06like with full self-driving, there's
36:08certain things that when it sees it,
36:10>> Mhm.
36:11>> [clears throat]
36:11>> it reacts in the wrong way.
36:13And once you know how to do that and you
36:16can cause AI to do things that it
36:19doesn't want to do or you don't expect
36:21it to do, then you're going to get
36:22people who do that all the time. And
36:25you're [clears throat] also seeing it,
36:26when I go and talk to um hospitals and
36:29researchers for cost plus drugs, right?
36:32What I tell them is you're crazy if you
36:34publish everything or if you try to
36:35patent everything cuz it's immediately
36:37available to every model and you lose
36:39control of your intellectual property.
36:41And you're starting to see more and more
36:43and more people instead of patenting it,
36:45it's a trade secret. Instead of
36:47publishing it, I'll put it in my model
36:49or I'll sell it to you. And so you get
36:51this bifurcation
36:53um with each model where
36:55Gemini is not trained on the same data
36:57as ChatGPT, as Claude, as Grok, etc. And
37:02if they're all giving you different
37:03answers,
37:05kind of defeats the purpose in a lot of
37:06respects. And if they can't deal with
37:08live video or they're always have
37:10latency. And look, when I say this, I'm
37:13not saying AI is useless. No, exact
37:16opposite. AI is incredible. But like
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37:22they're not all going to give you the
37:23same answer and you have to have the
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37:26question.
37:27>> Mhm.
37:27>> And ask the right question of multiple
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37:32from each of them, the responses from
37:33each of them, and come to a conclusion
37:35that you think is in your best interest
37:37or whatever interest that is.
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39:55What do you make of all these AI CEOs
39:57saying that it's going to
39:58transform how we work, and there's not
40:01really going to be any jobs left, and
40:02>> Well, it will transform how we work, but
40:05I think there'll be creative destruction
40:07like you You know, I went to school at
40:08Indiana University in Bloomington,
40:09Indiana, and right by Bloomington is
40:12Terre Haute, Indiana. Terre Haute,
40:13Indiana used to be the location for RCA
40:17records, which then became CDs, right?
40:20And then they made DVDs. You probably
40:23don't even remember that [ __ ] right?
40:24>> I remember [clears throat] CDs and DVDs,
40:26but cassettes are
40:27Yeah.
40:28>> gone, right? And but it's not like there
40:30aren't people making money on music.
40:32>> Mhm.
40:33>> And so there will be creative
40:35destruction. There will be new things
40:36that pop up that leverages new
40:38technology that create different kinds
40:40of jobs. Is the path going to be painful
40:42for people? Yeah, just like the people
40:43in Terre Haute, Indiana. It's going to
40:45be painful.
40:45>> Cuz this technology feels so different
40:48because um when you start to think about
40:50how much of our lives run both on the
40:53internet, but just based on
40:54intelligence. Like driving is not
40:56something I considered would be impacted
40:58by AI, for example. And then now I'm
41:00experie- you know, I heard you talking
41:02about your use of AI agents, but I've
41:04got I know 25 AI agents on my phone now
41:06going through all of my stuff. It's
41:07crazy. It's [laughter] amazing. It's
41:08amazing. But you go, "Fuck. Oh my god.
41:10Like
41:11>> But it's not smart.
41:13I hadn't read a non-fiction book in 25
41:16years. And the only reason I had the
41:18time to do it was I have these agents.
41:21All the [ __ ] that I had on my to-do list
41:23that I would have to go search for this,
41:25read that, do this.
41:27Boom. My agents, just like I'm sure you
41:29use it for the same thing, right? All
41:31the tedious [ __ ] work that you
41:33didn't want to do or always couldn't get
41:36to or thought you had to hire somebody
41:38for, now you have an agent that does it.
41:41And your biggest decision, do you use
41:42Grokbot? Do you use, you know, dot? Do
41:44you use, you know, co-work? And then you
41:47try them all and you see they all give
41:49you a different answer. And then you
41:50have to use your brain again.
41:54>> But you said that you would have
41:55otherwise hired people to do some of
41:57those things, right?
41:58>> I would have Yes, that's true. But now I
42:00can do get more done, just like you can
42:02get more done. And when you get more
42:04done using your agents, you have better
42:06opportunities to use what you know to
42:08create other things. So I might have
42:10brought in an intern and paid them $15
42:13an hour or $20 an hour, whatever it was.
42:16Now, maybe it creates a new business
42:18idea. And with that new business idea, I
42:20need to hire people to do that. Because
42:23So, I'll give you a perfect example of
42:24what I use agents for. For Cost Plus
42:26Drugs.com, I always, you know, I'm
42:28trying to break the healthcare industry.
42:30And there's these big conglomerates who
42:32I think are the real problem. And now I
42:34have an agent, every time they get sued,
42:37it comes to me and tells me. Every time
42:39there's a bid that they're bidding on,
42:41right? It comes and the agents tell me,
42:43and I can use the agent to create an
42:45email to send to the Open Records Act to
42:48get me copies of all those contracts.
42:50[ __ ] I could never have imagined doing
42:52before unless I hired somebody, but that
42:54meant I had to take the time to hire
42:55them and train them and manage them, so
42:58it never got done.
42:59>> Mhm. [clears throat]
42:59>> Now it gets done, and now I have other
43:02types of people that I hired to do it to
43:04different things that are at a
43:06completely different level. And it takes
43:08less of my time to do all of that.
43:10>> And for your son, your son's 16?
43:12>> 17, just turned 17.
43:13>> 17. When he's on When he's saying, "Dad,
43:15you know,
43:16you know a lot about the future. You've
43:17been able to predict the future several
43:19times. So, what should I be focused on,
43:21Dad?"
43:21>> He's 17. My kids are 17, 20, and 23. The
43:25one thing they never say is, "Dad, you
43:28know a lot about
43:30fill in the blank."
43:31Never. Never ever. My oldest daughter,
43:35though, when she was at um college, I
43:37told her she had to learn how to do
43:38agents. And she was like, "Yeah,
43:40whatever, whatever." And then I went and
43:41watched one of her presentations, and
43:43she was like, "Yeah, I got an agent to
43:44do this. [laughter] I got an agent to do
43:46that." I was like, proud papa, right?
43:48But yeah, but I tell them, "You have to
43:50learn this stuff because if you don't,
43:53the person who does
43:55is going to be so much more productive
43:56than you are. If you have access to a
43:58smartphone or a PC or laptop at the
44:01library that has access to Claude,
44:03Gemini, etc.,
44:04>> [gasps]
44:05>> there's no question you can't ask.
44:07>> Does hard work matter?
44:08>> Yes, of course. You got to take the time
44:11to ask the question. You have to take
44:13the time to consume the information it
44:15gives you and get and learn how to ask
44:17better and better questions to get
44:18better at it. But people always talk
44:20about mentors and having access to a
44:23network. I never had any of that [ __ ]
44:25right? I just sat and learned and read
44:27and did it by reading. Now, I don't go
44:30grab a book, right? I just go right to,
44:32you know, Clyde or co-work and I'm like,
44:34find all about this and tell me what
44:36Warren Buffett thought about that.
44:38It's insane.
44:39>> What does the edge become in such a
44:40world where everybody has the same
44:42information?
44:43>> Because you've got to know how to take
44:45what you've read or seen and integrate
44:48it and apply it to what you're trying to
44:50accomplish.
44:51Because it's cool, like I can say, write
44:53me a business plan for this business and
44:57it'll create all the agents, it'll
44:58create the bots, it'll do all that
45:00stuff. But I've got to be the one to
45:02say, this is right, this is wrong, this
45:04is right. And then I've got to be the
45:06one that goes out and sells it or
45:07teaches the agents how to sell when we
45:09get to that point so that the business
45:12could actually work. AI is not smart. It
45:16just grinds and grinds and grinds. When
45:20you hear about the risk profile, the
45:22doomers, right? When you When I talk to
45:25security people, I ask this very
45:26specific question. We're hearing these
45:28stories about AI breaking in here or
45:30doing that. Did they invent anything?
45:33Did they come up with a new approach for
45:35hacking into this system or for stealing
45:37this data?
45:38No.
45:40They didn't do anything new. What they
45:41did was get the same list that every
45:43security person has and because you can
45:46create an unlimited number of agents to
45:48go through and try it in every possible
45:50combination, it's all brute force. Where
45:53AI has a huge advantage is in doing
45:55brute force approaches to things
45:58because, you know, we'd always done
46:00security by trying to catch all the
46:02problems, knowing that, you know, unless
46:04it's a DDoS attack, right? Nobody has
46:07the the resources to do a full brute
46:09force to have more resources than we do.
46:11>> Mhm.
46:11>> Those days are gone, but what we don't
46:13talk about is using that same brute
46:15force on the defense side. That you can
46:17go out there and find all the holes in
46:19yourself and go be proactive to attack
46:22the bad guys. So, I don't think I'm not
46:24a doomer at all. There'll be instances
46:26of [ __ ] that happens, but I'm more
46:30afraid of what people do because of
46:31their concerns and lack of understanding
46:33of AI than I am about what AI will do.
46:36>> AI is not smart.
46:37>> No.
46:38Even we call it intelligent. Like we we
46:42Remember how we talked about book smart?
46:44>> Mhm.
46:44>> Somebody who can read a book, remember
46:46what's in it, they're book smart, get
46:48A's on tests cuz they memorize
46:49everything and they That's AI.
46:53>> So, what is what is I want to be clear
46:54on your definition of smart.
46:56>> Smart is being able to aggregate
46:58information and inputs.
47:00>> Yeah.
47:00>> Smart is being able to know where to
47:02look for the inputs and being able to
47:04take them and then
47:08aggregate them to solve a problem.
47:10>> Mhm.
47:11>> And also being able to identify the
47:13problem you're trying to solve.
47:15AI doesn't do that. And again, you have
47:18to be in the real time. We're having
47:19this conversation. I didn't know what
47:21questions you were going to ask, right?
47:23It's just whatever, right?
47:25AI
47:27is missing all that.
47:28>> Mhm.
47:29>> There's no way to feed AI everything
47:32that humans have access to. Like we
47:34talked about replacing doctors.
47:36Okay, if I'm a doctor and Steven's there
47:40This speeds it up. I have access to
47:41every research report, whatever it may
47:43be, article. And then Steven pukes all
47:47over me.
47:49AI can't help me with that, right?
47:51Steven, what's wrong? It's like
47:54I can't say to the AI what's wrong with
47:55Steven.
47:56I have to use my senses, look, you know,
48:00take my experience, and be smart enough
48:02to ask the right question.
48:03>> Is there a probability that something
48:05could happen that changes your mind on
48:07this point?
48:08It would
48:09whether it's the recursive
48:10self-improvement that they they all talk
48:11about where it starts improving itself
48:13or some kind What would evidence would
48:15you need to see to go, "You know what? I
48:16think AI is smart."
48:18>> I think where you take a minimal
48:19resource AI
48:22and it can ask and solve questions with
48:25minimal resources.
48:27Meaning, you can have a 12-year-old kid
48:30who comes from the worst part of the
48:32world be brilliant.
48:35No access to resources, sees and figures
48:37things out,
48:39finds places of sources of information.
48:42Now, when you talk about AI, more GPUs,
48:45more power, better algorithms, and
48:48whether it's recursive self-improvement
48:50or not where it teaches itself to try to
48:52get better,
48:53I don't think we reached that point
48:55where you can do it with no resources.
48:59>> Do you think the like people like Elon
49:00who
49:01you know, talk about how they're
49:02basically working is going to become a
49:03choice and
49:05um how smart this technology is going to
49:06be and the humanoid robots that are
49:08going to be empowered by AI and
49:10are those forecasts overblown?
49:13>> Elon Elon's amazing. He's a brilliant
49:15entrepreneur, don't get me wrong. He's
49:17the best entrepreneur of our lifetimes
49:18for sure.
49:20But he's a sales guy.
49:22You know, and he has to raise a lot of
49:23money for all the things he likes to do,
49:25and he's good at that. And so, I don't
49:27begrudge Elon anything even though he
49:28gives me [ __ ] on Twitter or X, and I
49:30give him [ __ ] right back. But I think
49:33he's got to sell what he's got to sell,
49:35and I think that carries the day for
49:38Elon.
49:39>> Mhm.
49:40Oh, yeah. I'm It's funny cuz I sit with
49:41so many different people from that the
49:43world of AI safety experts and then some
49:45of the frontier labs, you know, team
49:47members or CEOs or ex-employees. And one
49:49of the remarkable things is I hear
49:52everything.
49:53>> Yeah, there's no one continuous theme,
49:55[laughter] right? No no no two people
49:56give you the same answer. That tells you
49:58all you need to know, right?
49:59>> Yeah, it's it's possible.
50:00>> Cuz it should be obvious. If it was so
50:02dominant and there was a destination
50:05that everybody understood is where we
50:07would get to,
50:08it would be obvious to everybody and we
50:10all would see it. Again, you have to
50:13have
50:14more power and more GPUs than the
50:19history of power and GPUs prior to last
50:22year.
50:24That's not intelligence. There's a
50:26reason why you have to have all that.
50:28You know, you have to It's just brute
50:30force.
50:31>> Computers started a bit like that,
50:33didn't they?
50:34>> Um no, it's the exact opposite.
50:35>> Really? They started
50:35>> Yeah, cuz they were minimally capable.
50:38And so it took brilliance to program on
50:40Fortran on cards and put them into a
50:42this huge mainframe that didn't have a
50:44hundredth of the power of your phone. So
50:46they start off with minimal power and
50:48smart people figured out how to encode
50:50them. And then you got Moore's law and
50:52we saw chips, you know, silicon and all
50:54this stuff and it just got, you know,
50:56faster faster and faster. Maybe that's
50:58why I'm prejudiced in this, right?
51:00Because I've seen computers get
51:03incrementally faster faster faster by
51:04the minute, day, and year and the output
51:07and the capabilities that they create.
51:10>> Mhm.
51:11>> And so maybe that holds me back, right?
51:13My experience holds me back, but I think
51:15it I think it's indicative of what comes
51:17next. Pretty much all the time with
51:19technology. That it's going to get more
51:21powerful, for sure. It's going to get
51:23more capable, for sure. But as long as
51:26there's latency, people have the edge.
51:30>> It's going to get cheaper.
51:32>> Yeah, it'll get cheaper, for sure. It
51:34already is a lot cheaper than it was 2
51:36weeks ago. It's getting cheaper because
51:38those companies keep on borrowing and
51:40spending more money to get more power in
51:44order to power all of the AI.
51:47>> I think this is surprising to hear from
51:48you because you're someone who built
51:50broadcast.com at a moment when we were
51:52living in an like an exponential era.
51:54>> Yeah, an analog era, yeah.
51:55>> Yeah. And it you know, the internet was
51:58I mean people were skeptical about the
51:59internet.
52:00>> Yeah, people when I when I thought we
52:01were going to stream or
52:03you know, netcast is what we called it,
52:05they were like, "You're an idiot. I'll
52:06just turn on the TV. You're an idiot.
52:08I'll just turn on the radio."
52:11I just
52:12I'm not a naysayer on AI. I am the
52:14biggest proponent of AI that there is,
52:17but in order to to really get the
52:19benefit, you have to be, you know,
52:22honest about it.
52:23Like I said one time that a lot of these
52:25data centers will turn into pickleball
52:26courts courts, right? As a metaphor, not
52:29that literally they'd be pickleball
52:30courts. Because in order for AI to reach
52:33the pinnacle that everybody wants to
52:34reach it, you have to have less power
52:37doing more, not more power doing more.
52:40Because then you run into constraints
52:42like we're running into right now. We
52:44literally could get into a a debt bubble
52:46in the United States of America because
52:49there's so much debt being taken out by
52:51all these, you know, hyperscalers.
52:54>> You think that's possible?
52:55>> Yeah, of course it is cuz our deficit
52:57keeps on rising in the United States,
52:59which means we have to borrow more
53:01money, and the hyperscalers are are
53:03borrowing more than they're making, and
53:05so they're borrowing more and that
53:07lenders are competing for that business
53:09or they're competing to get lenders to
53:10lend to them. Rates keep on going up.
53:13I mean, if you've got a 40 billion
53:15dollar debt and your interest rates
53:17keeps on going up,
53:19at some point
53:20you can't raise money anymore.
53:23>> Mhm.
53:23>> There's a lot of praying going on right
53:25now. I'm a huge fan of Nvidia and Jensen
53:28Huang, but they're basically subsidizing
53:30half the industry
53:31cuz they have the cash to do it. And
53:34you've got
53:35Was it Goo No, Meta I think it is
53:37borrowing more than they have in cash
53:39flow by a factor of
53:42I mean, if it were the brilliance of
53:45brilliant, it should be the opposite,
53:47right? And at some point it may get
53:49there,
53:50but until then, we're in this private
53:52credit debt environment where there's a
53:54lot of uncertainty and a lot of things
53:56can go wrong. I mean, if you read what
53:58Ray Dalio says, you know, Ray says,
54:00we've already crossed the the curve,
54:03right? We're already past that point
54:04where we could be a debt-laden society
54:07where our currency becomes, you know,
54:10worthless at some point.
54:12>> Where are we in this at the moment in
54:14terms of the symptoms or markers of the
54:17next big
54:18>> Well, countries where over in this
54:20vicinity over here, the US, the UK,
54:24number of other countries are later in
54:28that cycle when there's the loss of the
54:31things that we've been talking about,
54:33over-indebtedness, more
54:35over-indebtedness, the loss of power.
54:37>> So, in the collapse period of the
54:39decline.
54:40>> And I'll call that the the decline.
54:42>> It's hard to imagine that for America,
54:44especially when you're 34 years old cuz
54:45you've just always seen the dominance of
54:47America.
54:47>> Right. No, as an American, it's it's
54:50hard to imagine and you think we'll
54:51figure it out.
54:52>> Yeah.
54:53>> We'll always figure it out. And
54:56I'm optimistic enough to think that we
54:57will, but there will be pain associated
55:00with that. Our politicians are great at
55:01sloganering. They're really bad at
55:03actually doing things. And I think
55:05that's going to be tough in this country
55:07and all countries.
55:08>> I think a lot of people think AI is the
55:10liferaft out of the debt as well because
55:12if you hear this age of abundance
55:14>> It's a race. It's a race, right? Will
55:16lenders lend to AI companies if interest
55:20rates hit, you know, now the 10-year's
55:22like 5.2%?
55:23If it goes to 6%, 8%, 10%, something's
55:27got to give. And right now at
55:30current interest rates, we're paying a
55:33trillion dollars in interest every year
55:34in this country.
55:36A trillion. And if the interest rates
55:38keep on going up and what we have to
55:40borrow keeps on going up, and then
55:41you've got all these hyperscalers
55:43competing to get access to that money,
55:45something gets crowded out. I don't know
55:47which or what. I'm not enough of a
55:48financial expert to do that, but
55:50something's going to give.
55:52>> Are you playing defense in any way just
55:53in case?
55:54>> Yeah. Yeah.
55:55>> What does that look like?
55:56>> I've got money in this country and that
55:58country, [laughter]
55:59you know, um
56:01and I I haven't invested nearly as much.
56:04It's the old Warren Buffett thing. I'll
56:05wait and see as things happen. I might
56:07lose a little bit because I'm I'm not
56:10as protected as I should have been, but
56:13I want to give it some time to see how
56:15things play out.
56:16>> I am I often wonder for the average
56:17person that's listening now, like what
56:19is the advice for them when they hear
56:20about this AI stuff going on with all
56:22these big San Francisco CEOs and this
56:25geopolitical race of AI?
56:28They're thinking like what can I like
56:29what should I be doing?
56:30And I think some of the advice that
56:31springs to mind is what you said earlier
56:33on about actually what what you can do
56:35in these moments is like get good at
56:36something. That feels like the
56:38the the the bucket that nobody can sort
56:40of unfill is like your skills and your
56:42knowledge at the end of the day.
56:43>> 100%. Yeah, you're exactly right and you
56:44said it well. Because what else you
56:47going to do?
56:48>> Mhm.
56:49>> And why would you give up?
56:52>> And the other thing I think a lot about
56:53is people skills.
56:55In a world where, you know, maybe my
56:57agent's going to run my computer for me,
56:58but I'm still going to have to interact
56:59>> more valuable, doesn't it?
57:00>> Yeah, exactly.
57:01>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, some of the
57:03investments I've made, smaller
57:04investments are like a company that does
57:06silent discos, you know, and and
57:09Brentwood and and it's face-to-face
57:11communications. And that's part of the
57:12reason why you've seen sports valuations
57:14go up so much. They think that it's
57:17AI-proof, but
57:19they it has other issues.
57:22>> I've spent the last decade building and
57:23investing in companies and so often the
57:25conversation around marketing budgets
57:26follows the exact same pattern. The
57:28budget gets approved, but then the
57:30results don't come back. And most of the
57:32time, the creative pitch and the offer
57:34is fine. The problem lies with the
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58:36our show, but you haven't yet hit that
58:38button. Thank you so much.
58:40You mentioned earlier on having your
58:41teeth knocked out.
58:42>> Uh-huh.
58:43>> And you were sort of alluding to the
58:44fact that this made you an a little bit
58:46of an insecure young man.
58:47>> Yeah. To some degree.
58:48>> 100% yeah.
58:48>> Um often times when we, you know, I
58:50interview someone like yourself,
58:53the audience and me will assume that you
58:55are
58:57very intentionally, consciously driven.
59:00But the more I've interviewed people,
59:02sometimes you figure out that sometimes
59:03they're a little bit dragged
59:04>> Oh, yeah.
59:05>> by their insecurities. And
59:06>> Oh, yeah, 100% right. I was the fat kid,
59:09right? And I would do anything I could
59:10like I literally wore a shirt to school
59:13that said [ __ ] My mom's like,
59:14"You're going to get suspended." 20
59:16minutes after I got there. I had a pair
59:18of jeans that I ripped up from the
59:19bottom all the way up to my hip, and
59:22then I stapled it together just to stand
59:24out and get attention cuz I like like
59:26after I became famous, people went back
59:29to my high school peers, you know, kids
59:31in my class, they had no idea who I was.
59:33>> [laughter]
59:35>> My friends did, right? The people I was
59:36close to, but nobody. And I saw
59:38something where somebody took one of the
59:40pictures from my high school yearbook
59:41and they circled it as being me.
59:44It wasn't me.
59:45So, yeah, I was not somebody who stood
59:47out or was considered to be, you know,
59:50most likely to be successful at all.
59:53>> Was that sort of shame and insecurity
59:55part of your drive?
59:56>> Oh, yeah, for sure. Just to prove people
59:58wrong. That's one of the reasons I went
1:00:00to Indiana. And I remember getting to IU
1:00:02and saying, you know, here's my chance
1:00:05for a fresh start. I get to be whoever I
1:00:06want to be, act like it.
1:00:08>> Did you think becoming successful and or
1:00:10famous would
1:00:12fix
1:00:13the in the insecurity, the thing that
1:00:15was invalidating you at some level?
1:00:16>> I I didn't think No, I didn't think
1:00:17about it that directly. I didn't you
1:00:18know, one or the other. I just thought I
1:00:21hated being broke.
1:00:22>> Mhm.
1:00:22>> You [clears throat] know, I wanted to
1:00:24control my own destiny. That was a big
1:00:26thing. And I wanted to be able to
1:00:28control my own time. Like after I sold
1:00:30MicroSolutions, I didn't immediately say
1:00:33I'm going to take this money, invest it,
1:00:34and I'm going to go out there and make
1:00:35as much money as I can. I did the exact
1:00:37opposite. I bought a lifetime pass on
1:00:38American Airlines.
1:00:39>> I heard about this.
1:00:40>> And my mission was to go out there and
1:00:42get as [ __ ] up as possible with as
1:00:44many people as possible in as many
1:00:45countries as possible and just to enjoy
1:00:48like I have an iWatch now cuz all the
1:00:50data. And the day I sold MicroSolutions,
1:00:53I took off my watch and I said, "I'm
1:00:55never going to wear a watch again
1:00:57because that means I'm working on
1:00:58somebody else's time." When by not
1:01:00having a watch, by being successful,
1:01:02it's my time. Why I don't get dressed
1:01:04up, why I I won't wear a tie. It's like
1:01:07swag isn't how you dress. Swag is being
1:01:09able to tell somebody else how they
1:01:11dress, you know? And I just wanted to
1:01:13control my own destiny and my own time.
1:01:15>> And you made a couple million dollars
1:01:17from selling MicroSolutions as a young
1:01:18man. Um you then start the broadcast.com
1:01:20company in your early 30s.
1:01:23>> I'm 37. yeah.
1:01:24>> Oh, you're 37.
1:01:25And that sold 4 years later to Yahoo for
1:01:285.7 billion in stock.
1:01:29>> yeah.
1:01:30>> Which gave you a paper net worth of
1:01:31somewhere between roughly 1.5, 1.7
1:01:34billion dollars.
1:01:34>> Paper, yeah.
1:01:35>> How did that change anything?
1:01:37>> Oh, yeah.
1:01:38>> Yeah?
1:01:38>> Changed everything, you know.
1:01:40>> Inside?
1:01:41>> Yeah, because it meant instead of
1:01:43hustling and worrying about what came
1:01:46next,
1:01:48I got to do whatever the [ __ ] I wanted
1:01:49to do. And that was the beauty of the
1:01:51whole thing. I mean, buying the Mavs.
1:01:53Never in a million years would have
1:01:55crossed my mind that I would own an NBA
1:01:57team. And again, going back to I wanted
1:02:01to control my own time. That was
1:02:02something my parents never had the
1:02:04option to do. They always were obligated
1:02:07to somebody else. They had to show up at
1:02:09work. They had to be nice to so-and-so.
1:02:11They had to do such-and-such. And just
1:02:13being able to come home and eat dinner
1:02:15and watch TV
1:02:17was their joy.
1:02:19>> Your dad got to see you become a
1:02:21successful man. What did he think?
1:02:23>> Oh, he would just cry and cry and cry.
1:02:25We're an emotional family, let's put it
1:02:27that way, yeah. Um he obviously was
1:02:29proud of all of us. And he would just
1:02:31shake his head and he goes, "I don't
1:02:33know where you got it.
1:02:35>> [laughter]
1:02:35>> It certainly didn't come from me or your
1:02:37mom." And
1:02:38>> Are there any Is anything else that
1:02:40acquiring lots of money has taught you
1:02:41about meaning happiness or what this is
1:02:44all really about?
1:02:45>> Yeah, if you're miserable when you're
1:02:46poor, good chance you're going to be
1:02:48miserable when you're rich.
1:02:49>> Mhm.
1:02:49>> Money can't change who you are. Money
1:02:51can't change your approach to life.
1:02:54Money can't change how you feel about
1:02:56yourself.
1:02:57>> Mhm.
1:02:58>> I mean, it's nice. I I like being rich a
1:03:00whole lot more than I like being broke,
1:03:02but
1:03:03I really take pride in the fact that,
1:03:05you know, I still have the same friends.
1:03:07You know, my high school buddies are
1:03:08still my high school buddies. I'm still
1:03:09close to my brothers. I'm still close to
1:03:11my rugby teammates. I'm still close to,
1:03:13you know, the same people that always
1:03:14have meant something to me.
1:03:16>> Mhm.
1:03:16>> Those are my friends.
1:03:17>> Do you have to be ruthless in business?
1:03:19>> No.
1:03:20Absolutely not. That was one of the
1:03:21biggest mistakes I made um in
1:03:23MicroSolutions. I used to scream. And
1:03:26then Todd Wagner, my partner at um
1:03:28broadcast.com, told me, "Mark, people
1:03:30are afraid of you. It's
1:03:32counterproductive. You have to, you
1:03:33know, chill out." And he was right. And
1:03:36I found that I got a lot further by
1:03:37being nice than by being a dick.
1:03:40>> This idea of being nice is another
1:03:41lesson that your father was quite clear
1:03:43on.
1:03:43>> Yeah, for sure. I mean, he was nice to
1:03:45everybody. I can be mad, but it's not
1:03:48going to change anything. You know, and
1:03:50if it's not going to change anything and
1:03:51it makes me feel worse by being mad,
1:03:54[ __ ] it.
1:03:54>> But don't people going to [ __ ] with you
1:03:55if if they don't know that you have it
1:03:57in the locker?
1:03:57>> What are they going to do?
1:03:59>> You know, people might I I again, I'm
1:04:01playing devil's advocate here, but
1:04:03aren't if if people think you're a soft
1:04:04touch, aren't they going to
1:04:06>> writing them checks for nothing, right?
1:04:08I'm just not going to be
1:04:09I mean, look, if you saw me with
1:04:11referees at a basketball game, that was
1:04:12like my outlet, right? That's where I
1:04:14got it out of my system, but like in
1:04:17business, it's just not worth it.
1:04:18Particularly now. Like when I was first
1:04:20getting started, I'm in my 20s and I
1:04:22didn't know any better. I didn't really
1:04:24I didn't have any role models. I was
1:04:25just learning as I went. Then, you know,
1:04:28I was I was a jerk. I would yell. I
1:04:29would scream. But once I got to
1:04:32broadcast.com, audionetbroadcast.com,
1:04:35I got a lot more done. And I was happier
1:04:37about it. You know, it just made it
1:04:39easier and people, you know, reacted
1:04:41better to me. And so, it was it worked
1:04:44out.
1:04:45>> Cuz we hear about the stories of Steve
1:04:46Jobs and his anger and his rage and I
1:04:48was just reading Ari Emanuel's book
1:04:50about a rage.
1:04:51>> Yeah, Ari can let it loose, yeah.
1:04:53But everybody's different, you know? I
1:04:55mean, what works for you and just for
1:04:57me,
1:04:59like now, why would I get mad at
1:05:01somebody?
1:05:02What good does it do me?
1:05:03>> You seem like a very happy person.
1:05:05>> I try to be, right? I mean, I I mean,
1:05:07>> off camera, I felt like you were a very
1:05:09optimistic, happy person.
1:05:11>> Yeah, cuz why not?
1:05:13>> It's actually It's actually quite rare
1:05:15to meet someone who is a billionaire
1:05:17um who has that
1:05:19positive energy and sort of contentment
1:05:22for some reason.
1:05:23>> Money has changed my life, but it didn't
1:05:25change my life.
1:05:26You know, the things I could buy, not
1:05:29having stress about where I lived or
1:05:30paying the bills, all the stuff that
1:05:32money can do,
1:05:34but it didn't make me a better person or
1:05:37a worse person. It didn't change my
1:05:40relationship. I mean,
1:05:41>> [clears throat]
1:05:42>> honestly, being a celebrity was a lot
1:05:44harder than being rich.
1:05:45>> Really?
1:05:46>> Yeah, particularly as um social media
1:05:48became more prevalent and when Shark
1:05:50Tank blew up, it was you know, the Mavs
1:05:51had just won a championship. Shark Tank
1:05:53now is at the top at its peak ratings
1:05:56and everything. And I mean, celebrities
1:05:58everywhere, "Oh, I love Shark Tank. It's
1:06:00my new favorite show." You know how all
1:06:02that stuff goes, right? And being rich
1:06:04doesn't give you attention, right? It
1:06:06just changes how you deal with things.
1:06:09Being a celebrity
1:06:11brings you attention, some good, some
1:06:13bad.
1:06:14>> And you are you're an older brother of
1:06:16three
1:06:16>> Yeah.
1:06:17>> brothers.
1:06:17>> Yeah, two younger brothers.
1:06:18>> How how has that been formative to you?
1:06:20Cuz I you know, I'm a younger brother of
1:06:21four, but I always think of older
1:06:24brothers as being I mean,
1:06:26more likely to lead.
1:06:28Is that an accurate reflection of what
1:06:29it was like being an older brother?
1:06:30>> Yeah, yeah, cuz they they both followed
1:06:32me to Dallas. Both super smart guys,
1:06:34great guys. We're we're close, but they
1:06:36always copied me. And you know, there's
1:06:392 and 1/2 year difference to Brian, my
1:06:40middle brother, and 6-year difference.
1:06:42So, I was gone cuz I left early for
1:06:44college. We weren't as close then
1:06:47because they were super young and I was
1:06:49out of the house, but then I went to
1:06:51Indiana and they would come visit me.
1:06:53And you know, then I got came after
1:06:54Indiana, I went to Dallas and they came
1:06:56and lived with me. Both of them lived
1:06:57with me at some point, and that's where
1:06:58we got close.
1:07:00>> What role do you think you've played in
1:07:01their lives as big brother?
1:07:04>> You know, that's a great question. Um
1:07:06I hope I've been able to set a good
1:07:08example. You know, I think
1:07:10I've been a double-edged sword for them
1:07:12as a big brother in that um I think I've
1:07:15set a good example in many ways and I
1:07:17tried to be supportive and help them
1:07:19where I could. But then, you know what
1:07:21it's like when it comes with celebrity,
1:07:23right? That creates a whole different
1:07:24set of pressures. And I think, you know,
1:07:27particularly living in Dallas as things
1:07:29started to really take off for me was
1:07:31tough on them and I could tell. You
1:07:33know, it's it's not that they weren't
1:07:35supportive, but you know, it's not like
1:07:37Cuban is Smith, right? Where
1:07:39you know, it's like Cuban, oh you must
1:07:40be related to or your brother, you know,
1:07:42how are you related to Mark? And I mean,
1:07:45I know that that put a lot of pressure
1:07:47on them.
1:07:48>> Put a lot of pressure on them.
1:07:49>> Yeah.
1:07:50Yeah, because, you know, well, what are
1:07:52you doing, right? Or you just live off
1:07:53your brother or this or that and both of
1:07:55them are smart and both of them have
1:07:57made their own way, have done really
1:07:58well, but
1:07:59you know, and we haven't talked about it
1:08:00a lot, but, you know, we it it was
1:08:03definitely tougher on them as things
1:08:05really started to take off for me.
1:08:07>> Brian struggled.
1:08:09>> Yeah.
1:08:10>> Um we actually spoke to Brian.
1:08:12>> Oh, you did?
1:08:12>> We did speak to Brian. Yeah.
1:08:14And he he sort of spoke to some of those
1:08:16struggles.
1:08:16>> Yeah.
1:08:17>> But he also um
1:08:19he wrote you a letter.
1:08:20>> Oh my god.
1:08:22I'll probably start crying.
1:08:23>> Can I read it?
1:08:24>> Yeah.
1:08:25>> I read it and I I found it to be
1:08:27you know, very emotional.
1:08:32>> Do you want me to read it out loud?
1:08:33>> Yeah.
1:08:35>> We have so many great childhood
1:08:36memories. It's hard to pick one.
1:08:40>> [sighs and gasps]
1:08:41>> So, I'll go to the one that feels most
1:08:42personal to me. July 2005 is the lowest
1:08:45moment in my life wanting to end it.
1:08:47You and Jeff were there for me as you
1:08:49both always have been.
1:08:51I wouldn't be here today if not for you
1:08:53both. As our dad told us growing up, no
1:08:55matter what happens or where you go,
1:08:57always stay in contact with your
1:08:59brothers.
1:09:00It's no accident that after so many
1:09:02decades, 1,200 miles from Pittsburgh,
1:09:04>> [snorts]
1:09:04>> we all live within walking distance of
1:09:05each other. I love you. Bye.
1:09:11Yeah, it was not
1:09:13a good time um in 2005.
1:09:18You know, he
1:09:19And again, that goes part and parcel to,
1:09:22you know, being my little brother, you
1:09:24know, and
1:09:25being out and about in the social scene
1:09:27and
1:09:29you know, I bought the Mavs in 2000.
1:09:32You know, I was becoming famous and all
1:09:34of a sudden it wasn't a burden he chose,
1:09:36right? Or it wasn't his choice. It was
1:09:38just the way things turned out.
1:09:40And you know, he he took a turn.
1:09:44I mean, he
1:09:46just
1:09:48had issues, had problems, and
1:09:50>> [snorts]
1:09:51>> Jeff called me. I was out of town. I
1:09:53came back in and we went and got him and
1:09:55put him in rehab and
1:09:57you know, and he's been sober ever
1:09:59since. So, thank God for that.
1:10:03>> It puts things into perspective, doesn't
1:10:05it?
1:10:05>> Yeah.
1:10:05>> In so many ways.
1:10:07>> It's crazy cuz, you know, it's not like
1:10:08we were all best friends and did
1:10:10everything together,
1:10:12but [snorts]
1:10:13we always connected and stayed together.
1:10:16Family trips, going places with my dad
1:10:18or my mom or
1:10:20to this day,
1:10:22you know, we're texting each other. I
1:10:24don't even know how many times a week or
1:10:26if there's a Steelers game or Pirates
1:10:28game or something going on, we're we're
1:10:29still connected.
1:10:31>> Your mother you just mentioned missing
1:10:32your father. Your mother and your father
1:10:33passed over
1:10:352017 and 2022. How has did that moment
1:10:38bring the family together?
1:10:40Or bring your siblings together?
1:10:42>> Um
1:10:43I mean, in the obvious sense, yes. I
1:10:45mean, at that point in time,
1:10:48but
1:10:49I think
1:10:51it it makes you feel when your parents
1:10:53pass, it makes you feel your own
1:10:54mortality. Everybody's time comes at
1:10:56some point.
1:10:58And my dad made it to 92, my mom made it
1:11:00to 85, and that sounds like a long time
1:11:03until you realize
1:11:05it's not as long as you hope. And so,
1:11:07yeah, it it definitely connected us
1:11:10even more strongly than we were.
1:11:12>> When we When I read about some of these
1:11:14things, I thought about some of your
1:11:15more recent decisions around leaving
1:11:17Shark Tank, selling the Mavs, they felt
1:11:19like they were part of the same puzzle.
1:11:20>> 100% Yeah, definitely cuz
1:11:23again, when you start feeling your own
1:11:25mortality and you start recognizing
1:11:27what's important,
1:11:28my kids,
1:11:30my family, that next business trip
1:11:33didn't seem nearly as important as it
1:11:34used to.
1:11:35And missing a birthday
1:11:39and telling myself, well, I'll be there
1:11:40for the next one,
1:11:41>> Mhm.
1:11:43>> you know, became a mistake and I was
1:11:45just like, okay, what's the point of
1:11:46doing this? You know, I'm
1:11:50They were 13,
1:11:52um,
1:11:5316, and 19 when I sold the Mavs, and a
1:11:57little bit older when I got out of Shark
1:11:59Tank, and
1:12:00you know, it it wasn't going to be all
1:12:02that long till they were on their own.
1:12:04And I just wanted to be there as much as
1:12:05I could.
1:12:07>> Should everyone be an entrepreneur?
1:12:09>> No, not everybody's built to be an
1:12:11entrepreneur. Um
1:12:12>> What are they missing?
1:12:14>> If you have to ask yourself if you can
1:12:16be an entrepreneur, you're probably not
1:12:18an entrepreneur.
1:12:19There's something that you want to
1:12:21accomplish, or there's a skill that you
1:12:22have that you want to to use to your own
1:12:25benefit, financial benefit, but not
1:12:28everybody's willing to do the work like
1:12:29we talked about earlier, to do the
1:12:31preparation, to to fight the battles,
1:12:33and I think a lot of people think that
1:12:35when you become an entrepreneur, you get
1:12:37more control of your life as opposed to
1:12:39being subject to what the whims of your
1:12:40bosses.
1:12:41>> Mhm.
1:12:41>> It's the exact opposite.
1:12:43>> Mhm.
1:12:43>> You have no control of your life as an
1:12:45entrepreneur because your customers,
1:12:47your employees, there's always
1:12:48something. Some employee's child is
1:12:51sick, and you have to work it through
1:12:54because particularly you know if you
1:12:55have a company that has under 100
1:12:56employees everybody's family at some
1:12:59level, you know, and you know everybody
1:13:01you you talk to them, you know what's
1:13:03happening in your lives. People don't
1:13:05expect that when they become an
1:13:06entrepreneur.
1:13:07>> If I sat Mark there, 20 year old Mark
1:13:09here.
1:13:09>> Yeah, programmer Mark.
1:13:10>> I just give you the preface on why I'm
1:13:11asking this question. I think that the
1:13:13journey you've been on changes a man,
1:13:15you know, in several ways, small ways.
1:13:18It's kind of like being pelted by hail.
1:13:20And especially if you're a famous
1:13:21person.
1:13:22So, I think people become clearer on
1:13:24their principles, and they they they
1:13:27learn principles, but they also become
1:13:29clearer on on their principles. So, if I
1:13:30sat 21 year old Mark there, and then
1:13:33you're sat here now, what how has this
1:13:35journey, being pelted by the world, good
1:13:38and bad, shaped you? And like what's
1:13:41changed?
1:13:41>> That's a great question. Um
1:13:45I mean, I think family obviously changes
1:13:47you the most, but from a business
1:13:49perspective from here, and it's great
1:13:50that you brought this picture. So, you
1:13:51see
1:13:53that poster right there that hadn't been
1:13:54hung hung hung up yet?
1:13:56>> Mhm.
1:13:56>> It says poverty sucks.
1:13:58>> [laughter]
1:13:59>> And I used to have it I just moved in
1:14:01that house, that's the second bedroom in
1:14:02my house. Every house or apartment that
1:14:05I lived in, that was on the wall.
1:14:07Poverty sucks. And I think that's the
1:14:09big difference. You know, this Mark was,
1:14:12you know,
1:14:13I would sit there for 25, 26 straight
1:14:17hours writing software for customers
1:14:19because I knew I had to do it.
1:14:20>> And you had no degree in software
1:14:22development.
1:14:22>> No, I had to teach myself everything.
1:14:23So, anything I didn't know, I had to
1:14:25learn teach myself. And that's what I
1:14:27would do. I literally I would get a
1:14:29bucket of ribs. It's so gross now, but I
1:14:32would sit there because I would start
1:14:34concentrating so hard, and I would look
1:14:37up thinking it's three or four hours
1:14:38later, and it'd be 28 hours later cuz I
1:14:41was just so consumed by what I was doing
1:14:44because I wanted to get to that next
1:14:46level.
1:14:47>> You found out what you were good at and
1:14:48what you were capable of.
1:14:50Did you also find out what you were not
1:14:51capable of and what you were not good
1:14:52at?
1:14:52>> Oh, yeah, a lot of stuff. I found out
1:14:54what do I suck at?
1:14:56>> I want to just preface this by saying, I
1:14:57think this is also really important
1:14:58because sometimes people look at a
1:15:00billionaire successful businessman like
1:15:01you and go, he must just [ __ ] be
1:15:03>> Oh, no, no, I there's a lot of things
1:15:05I'm awful at. At MicroSolutions, I had a
1:15:08partner, Martin Woodall.
1:15:09Martin Woodall was anal. He was just a
1:15:12perfectionist about everything. I'm not.
1:15:15I'm ready, fire, aim. Go, go, go, go,
1:15:17go. And if you go out of the baseline,
1:15:19so be it, right? If it goes into touch,
1:15:21so be it, it doesn't matter, right?
1:15:23That's for somebody else to deal with.
1:15:24When I got to broadcast.com, Todd
1:15:26Wagner, same way. His skill set
1:15:28complemented mine. It wasn't that I
1:15:30needed a partner, it's that I needed a
1:15:32partner.
1:15:33>> Mhm.
1:15:33>> You know, [clears throat] and
1:15:35recognizing that I never was going to be
1:15:37good at the details. Dr. Osmanski now at
1:15:40Cost Plus Drugs, very detail-oriented. I
1:15:43need that complement to my skill set
1:15:46because I'm awful at the details.
1:15:47>> What about finance? Were you good at
1:15:49finance cuz you didn't have a finance
1:15:50degree, did you?
1:15:51>> Oh, no, but I'd taken finance classes,
1:15:53I'd taken entrepreneurship classes. So,
1:15:55yeah, I get finance. I might not be able
1:15:58to structure the most advanced M&A deal,
1:16:00but I'm going to understand it.
1:16:02>> What about hiring and leadership? Is
1:16:04like
1:16:04>> Well, that's another thing. Right? Let's
1:16:05separate hiring and leadership.
1:16:07>> Mhm.
1:16:07>> Leadership is one thing I think I'm good
1:16:08at, right? Hiring, suck at it. As a
1:16:11salesperson, I would see Steven sitting
1:16:14sitting across from me and Steven would
1:16:16give me an answer to a question. I'm
1:16:18like, "Okay, I can help Steven. I can
1:16:20make it work. I want to I want this guy
1:16:22to be successful at my company." And I
1:16:23would hire the worst possible people.
1:16:25Why did you hire this guy? Well, I
1:16:27thought it's like a Shark Tank deal.
1:16:28This company sucks. Why were you
1:16:30investing in this guy? Oh, I can make it
1:16:31work. I can make it work. And so, people
1:16:33are like, "Hey Mark, can I get a job?
1:16:35Can I send you my resume?" I'm like,
1:16:37"Don't send it to me
1:16:38>> [laughter]
1:16:39>> cuz I might hire you."
1:16:39>> I'm awful at it.
1:16:42>> How important is it though as a skill in
1:16:43terms of outcomes, do you think?
1:16:45>> Oh, hiring is critical, right? I mean,
1:16:47if you don't have the right people in
1:16:48the right culture, the people that fit
1:16:50into that culture, you're going to suck.
1:16:51But, you know, we would hire slow, but
1:16:54fire fast. So, if there's somebody that
1:16:56these guys hired and I'm like, they're
1:16:57not going to work,
1:16:59they would know and it'd get resolved.
1:17:01>> People founders don't talk about that.
1:17:02And if they they talk about like
1:17:03creating a fancy shiny product that does
1:17:05something awesome, but the actual art of
1:17:07like building the team
1:17:08>> is more important.
1:17:09>> Yeah.
1:17:10>> Yeah, I mean, you got to have the right
1:17:10product, the right service, but
1:17:12>> Makes me think about this again.
1:17:13>> Yeah, that as well, yeah. You've got to
1:17:15have culture. And particularly in
1:17:17sports, you can have the most talent,
1:17:20but if they don't fit together as a
1:17:22team,
1:17:24they're going to suck.
1:17:25>> Is that what you found when you went
1:17:26into the Mavs originally?
1:17:27>> Oh, yeah. Yeah, when I got there, nobody
1:17:28wanted to be there.
1:17:30I mean, literally, people in the office,
1:17:33people on the court, they we were just a
1:17:35way station. If you couldn't get a job
1:17:37with the Lakers or the Celtics or
1:17:39whoever, right? Okay, the Mavs will hire
1:17:41you and that's fine. So, when I got
1:17:43there, it was
1:17:44the most important thing that I focused
1:17:46on. I sat there in front of the players,
1:17:47I'm like, we're going to win.
1:17:49And this train is speeding up, it's
1:17:50internet time, it's 2000, right? And if
1:17:53you want to stay, let me know. And if
1:17:55you don't want to stay, let me know and
1:17:57I'll trade you. I got no problem with
1:17:59that cuz we're going to do things
1:18:00differently. I expect you to win, I'll
1:18:03give you the tools you need to win.
1:18:05Like, one of the things I did,
1:18:07like, when I took over, we had head
1:18:10coach and like three assistant coaches.
1:18:12And they were responsible for all the
1:18:14training and player development and
1:18:16that's the way the entire NBA did it.
1:18:18And we were literally spending more
1:18:20money on computer training and support
1:18:22than we were on player development and
1:18:24for players we paid more than a million
1:18:25dollars. So, I'm like, this is the
1:18:27dumbest [ __ ] I've ever seen. And so, I
1:18:29asked our general manager and assistant
1:18:31general manager and coaches, I'm like,
1:18:33go find former Mavericks and I want you
1:18:35to bring them in and we're going to
1:18:37assign to each of them one player who
1:18:40has a similar skill set that they had
1:18:41when they were in the NBA and they're
1:18:43going to do nothing but work with them.
1:18:45That's it. Just work with them.
1:18:47That made perfect sense to me because
1:18:49all these former players wanted to get
1:18:51in and we hardly had to pay them
1:18:52anything. They just wanted to be part of
1:18:53the game again and now all of a sudden
1:18:56all of our players had somebody focused
1:18:57on them and not only did it improve
1:18:59their skills, but it made them realize
1:19:01that the culture of this organization is
1:19:04to win and we will do whatever it takes
1:19:06to win and you know, it paid off. But
1:19:09the rest of the NBA?
1:19:11Oh my god, they hated me. They hated me.
1:19:13I went out bought a plane, you know, I
1:19:15spent about the same amount on the team
1:19:17plane because I'm like we leave Oakland,
1:19:20California at 3:00 in the morning or
1:19:22whatever. I don't want us flying on this
1:19:24little ratty plane that they rented or a
1:19:27typical commercial plane when your guy's
1:19:29seven What are the guy Shawn Bradley
1:19:307'6"? He's not you know, fitting in a
1:19:33regular seat and he's making his living
1:19:35with his body, right? So, I bought a
1:19:37plane and I told I told the guys, "Okay,
1:19:39we're going to [ __ ] with everybody. I
1:19:41want you to tell everybody that there's
1:19:43a weight room on the plane, a steam
1:19:45room."
1:19:46>> [laughter]
1:19:46>> We didn't have any of that [ __ ] right?
1:19:47And to this day people will ask me about
1:19:49the weight room that we had on the
1:19:50plane. And just stuff like that where
1:19:52it's not only is it effective and
1:19:56improves outcomes, but it sends a
1:19:58message that hey, this is what we're
1:20:01trying to do. This is our culture. We're
1:20:03going to win. We're going to support
1:20:04each other and I'm going to get you all
1:20:06the tools you need. Like even things
1:20:08like a nutritionist or you know,
1:20:10preparing food for them.
1:20:12Things teams didn't do back then.
1:20:15And [clears throat] it just made sense
1:20:16to me.
1:20:16>> Did you see the culture changing of the
1:20:18maps?
1:20:18>> Oh, like that.
1:20:19>> It was quickly.
1:20:20>> Oh, yeah. We went When I took over, we
1:20:22were 9 and 23.
1:20:24>> What's that mean?
1:20:24>> Um we were nine wins and 23 losses.
1:20:27>> Oh, damn.
1:20:27>> Yeah. And we finished the season um the
1:20:30next 50 games we were 31 and 19.
1:20:33>> Wow.
1:20:34>> Yeah.
1:20:35>> The next season?
1:20:36>> No, we're talking about that season.
1:20:38>> That season.
1:20:38>> So, when I took over in January, the
1:20:40season runs towards April. When I took
1:20:42over, we had nine wins, 23 losses, and
1:20:45for the remaining 50 50 games of that
1:20:47season,
1:20:49we won 31 of them, lost 19 of them.
1:20:51>> Since you took over, the Mavericks had
1:20:53the second highest regular season
1:20:54winning percentage of any NBA team. The
1:20:56team went from 39% win rate to almost
1:20:5960% win rate under you. The Mavericks
1:21:02made their first finals, but lost to
1:21:04Miami Heat in 2006.
1:21:06>> Yep.
1:21:06>> And then, the Mavericks won the NBA
1:21:08championship in 2011, when you were 53
1:21:11years old. And then, you sold the
1:21:13majority ownership.
1:21:14>> 2023. Yeah.
1:21:16>> But, you still have a significant
1:21:17>> 27%, yeah.
1:21:19>> I always find teams as like that that
1:21:20great analogy for learning about how to
1:21:22build businesses because
1:21:24it is there's a scoreboard, and you get
1:21:26the scores back quick. Whereas, in
1:21:27business, there can be it's kind of a
1:21:29bit more vague as to what's happening
1:21:30with your product.
1:21:31>> always a new season in sports. You can
1:21:33make trades, you can cut people,
1:21:35[clears throat] you know, replace them.
1:21:37In business, it's 24/7 by 365. It's the
1:21:40ultimate sport, which is, you know, if
1:21:42you have competitive juices,
1:21:45business is the ultimate way to to fill
1:21:47that need.
1:21:47>> Is there anything else you learned from
1:21:48Mavericks, the Mavs, that might be
1:21:50applicable to building businesses or or
1:21:53hiring teams or creating teams?
1:21:55>> I think you have to be innovative
1:21:58because it's so competitive.
1:22:00Things like, you know, using statistics.
1:22:05It's quick story.
1:22:07When I was at Indiana, I snuck into the
1:22:09NBA program when I got there as an
1:22:1118-year-old, and I started taking MBA
1:22:13classes. The first MBA class I snuck
1:22:15into was a statistics class taught by a
1:22:18guy named Wayne Winston. But, fast
1:22:20forward 6 months after I bought the
1:22:22Mavs, whatever it was, and I'm watching
1:22:25Jeopardy on television.
1:22:27And he's on there killing it, right?
1:22:29Killing it. And then weeks later I'm at
1:22:32Indianapolis, we're playing the Indiana
1:22:33Pacers, and I hear "Mark, Mark, Mark"
1:22:36from the crowd, and it's like, if I
1:22:38hadn't watched him on Jeopardy, I
1:22:39wouldn't have recognized him as my
1:22:41professor from when I was 18 years old.
1:22:43And we started talking, and he started
1:22:45telling me about what he was doing with
1:22:46statistics for sports,
1:22:48and I hired him on the spot, and he
1:22:50became the first um analytics person in
1:22:53the NBA full-time, and that helped us
1:22:55grow our way into winning games and
1:22:57winning championships, um or a
1:23:00championship. And the point to your
1:23:01question is you have to keep on
1:23:04innovating in sports like all
1:23:06businesses. You can't rest on your
1:23:08laurels.
1:23:09>> People don't like necess- always like
1:23:11the idea of data and statistics cuz it
1:23:12seems to be a threat against that
1:23:14instinct and judgment and creativity.
1:23:16>> No, it's true. Like, the eye test versus
1:23:17the numbers, and you have to do both.
1:23:19You know, you can't exclude one or the
1:23:22other. I mean, there's some players that
1:23:24just look shoot ugly, don't make as many
1:23:27shots, but in aggregate, they impact
1:23:30winning a game and winning championships
1:23:32more than the guys who score 25 points.
1:23:35>> Tiffany.
1:23:36>> Uh-oh.
1:23:37>> [laughter]
1:23:38>> I spoke to Tiffany. I'm joking, I didn't
1:23:40really.
1:23:41>> Oh, okay.
1:23:42I mean, it wouldn't be bad, but I was
1:23:43just like,
1:23:44>> [laughter]
1:23:44>> okay, I'm surprised you talked to you.
1:23:46>> You didn't need to choke on your drink.
1:23:48Maybe I should have. Um Tiffany, you met
1:23:50Tiffany I think in a gym when you were
1:23:5239.
1:23:53>> Yeah, late 30s, let's say, yeah.
1:23:54>> And you got married?
1:23:55>> Um in 2002, so I was 44.
1:23:58>> Three kids so far?
1:24:00>> So far.
1:24:00>> Yeah. [laughter]
1:24:01>> No, I got snipped.
1:24:02>> Okay, okay, so total. How does that feed
1:24:05into everything we've talked about
1:24:06around happiness and meaning and purpose
1:24:07and success?
1:24:08>> Oh, it supersedes everything.
1:24:10>> Really?
1:24:10>> Yeah, I mean, you you got one part of my
1:24:11brain that is like business, business,
1:24:13business, business, you know, compete,
1:24:15compete, compete, and then you've got
1:24:17the better part of me that's my kids, my
1:24:19kids, my kids,
1:24:20um and my wife, and they've just changed
1:24:22me for the better in a million ways I
1:24:24can't even describe. And there's
1:24:27nothing, you know,
1:24:29more important to me. Nothing. I may not
1:24:31be great as a dad, don't tell you, you
1:24:33know, but, um, or a husband, but I do my
1:24:35best.
1:24:36>> What why is that so important? So many
1:24:38of us sacrifice relationships in the
1:24:40pursuit of
1:24:40>> And I must say that I did, right? I
1:24:42mean, like, when I had MicroSolutions, I
1:24:43was dating a woman and it was like, I
1:24:46mean, I I was on a mission. I didn't
1:24:47settle down immediately in terms of, you
1:24:50know, family in front of business,
1:24:53but
1:24:54I got to that point.
1:24:55>> In hindsight, do you think it would have
1:24:56been possible to do both at the same
1:24:57time?
1:24:58>> Not as well as I did it, um,
1:25:00and I regret that in a lot of ways.
1:25:03>> Which part?
1:25:03>> The fact that I didn't do as many of the
1:25:06little events,
1:25:08um, with my kids as I probably should
1:25:10have. I would tell myself, um, "They're
1:25:12too young to remember." You know, and so
1:25:15I would go do what I needed to do with
1:25:16with business, um,
1:25:19but in hindsight, I probably would have
1:25:20done more of that.
1:25:21>> Where does that regret come from? Does
1:25:22that come from you or does that come
1:25:24from them?
1:25:25>> No, it I mean, they remind me of certain
1:25:27things, for sure, but, um,
1:25:29but I think it's for me, you know, just
1:25:31in hindsight. And, you know, it took me
1:25:33a while to get there, but that's why I
1:25:35left Shark Tank, why I sold the Mavs, or
1:25:36a big part of it.
1:25:38>> I also did it for my own reasons.
1:25:39Obviously, I'm in the season of life
1:25:40where I'm about to have, um, kids,
1:25:41hopefully, touch wood. And I hear over
1:25:44and over again exactly what you've just
1:25:45said from successful people. So, when I
1:25:47ask where does it come from, I'm like,
1:25:48is it did is it feedback the kids give
1:25:49you when they grow up or is it just a
1:25:51feeling you have?
1:25:52>> Both.
1:25:52>> Both. Yeah.
1:25:53>> But, I mean, cuz teenagers are
1:25:54teenagers. I mean, I'll never forget
1:25:56when my oldest, like, she was 12 years
1:25:58old, I was saying something to her, she
1:26:00was like,
1:26:02>> [clears throat]
1:26:03>> And and it's different for them, right?
1:26:04I feel bad sometimes because they're
1:26:06under a spotlight and, you know, I would
1:26:08always with each of them over and over,
1:26:10I would have the conversation, "Look, if
1:26:12you go out and do something or if one of
1:26:14your friends goes out and does something
1:26:16stupid,
1:26:16>> Mhm. It's on you.
1:26:19>> Your friend did something stupid.
1:26:20If you do something stupid, it's on the
1:26:22front page of the paper and every, you
1:26:25know, social media feed around the
1:26:26world. And so, I think that puts some
1:26:29unfair pressure on them, but I mean, I
1:26:32think they've adapted. They're great
1:26:33kids. Don't get me wrong. They are
1:26:34amazing, amazing kids. And, you know, I
1:26:38can still tell you with absolute
1:26:39certainty that my favorite word in the
1:26:41world is dad. And they know I'm a crier.
1:26:44>> [laughter]
1:26:45>> I can see it gets you emotional just
1:26:46saying it.
1:26:47>> Yeah. Yeah, that's that's like every
1:26:49that
1:26:50means a lot to me.
1:26:51>> Why?
1:26:54>> You know,
1:26:55as you get older, you start to recognize
1:26:57your mortality.
1:26:59And
1:27:01like with my parents being gone, I have
1:27:03their pictures, you know, in in my
1:27:05closet and I say hi to them every
1:27:07morning and every night.
1:27:09And I want my kids to be the same way
1:27:11after I'm gone.
1:27:12I want them to be proud of me.
1:27:15I want them to, you know, remember me
1:27:17positively as much as possible and I
1:27:20want them to carry on anything that, you
1:27:23know, we all can do together.
1:27:28>> I have no doubt they will be. I'm having
1:27:30no doubt they are.
1:27:31>> Who knows?
1:27:33Who knows? They're at that age where we
1:27:34can't have that we don't have that
1:27:35conversation yet.
1:27:38>> As you look forward, Mark.
1:27:40Um you've talked about your mortality,
1:27:42you've talked about um
1:27:43leaving Shark Tank, which I've just
1:27:46become a guest uh shark on the show,
1:27:48Unfilable Shoes.
1:27:48>> great.
1:27:49>> [laughter]
1:27:49>> Yeah, I'm good. Thank you. Um you're 68
1:27:52now.
1:27:52>> Yeah, no, 48. [clears throat]
1:27:54>> 48? [laughter]
1:27:55You look 48, to be fair. You look pretty
1:27:57good. You play a lot of sports still,
1:27:58right? So, I see you playing basketball
1:28:00and stuff like that. What do you want to
1:28:02accomplish in this next season of your
1:28:03career?
1:28:04Cost Plus Drugs as the show
1:28:05>> Plus Drugs, obviously I want to change
1:28:07health care in America. It's a mess and,
1:28:09you know, it was great when with the
1:28:10Mavs, someone would say, "Oh, great game
1:28:12or whatever, but when somebody walks up
1:28:14to me now and says, "Yeah, I got my
1:28:15drugs from cosmosdrugs.com. It saves me,
1:28:18you know, $1,000 a month and now I can
1:28:20afford them." I mean,
1:28:22>> That's really something, Mark.
1:28:23>> It's crazy.
1:28:24>> It's crazy that someone like you would
1:28:25commit your life
1:28:27to this because
1:28:28regardless of what you've just described
1:28:30there, I think personally the biggest
1:28:32thing you're doing is just shining a
1:28:34massive light on an issue that doesn't
1:28:36want a light on it.
1:28:36>> Oh, and I'll fix it. I promise you I
1:28:38will fix it because there are
1:28:40three basically big companies that
1:28:42dominate all of health care. You know,
1:28:44hundreds of billions in sales. It's
1:28:46crazy. And you got 67% of people who get
1:28:51health insurance from their employer
1:28:53get it through an employer who's
1:28:54self-insured. And I bring that up
1:28:56because that means they take all the
1:28:58responsibility for the bills, that
1:29:00employer does. Which means it's their
1:29:01responsibility in who they hire to do
1:29:04all their insurance and take care of all
1:29:05that stuff. And so I just go
1:29:07door-to-door with these CEOs and I just
1:29:09give them [ __ ] left and right. And if I
1:29:11can get them to do the right thing to
1:29:13save themselves money and improve the
1:29:15health of their employees and families,
1:29:19I'll get a win there and I'll completely
1:29:21change health care in this country and
1:29:23that that's the mission.
1:29:24>> You and Trump have had a bit of a
1:29:25interesting relationship, roller coaster
1:29:26relationship, but I saw you stood next
1:29:29to him talking about this initiative
1:29:30recently.
1:29:31>> Yeah. Yeah. Look, anything that makes
1:29:33people healthier and saves them money on
1:29:34their health care,
1:29:36that's fine by me. I don't care. You can
1:29:38give me some [ __ ]
1:29:40I don't care. You know, the goal is the
1:29:42goal. And the goal is to change health
1:29:45care in this country so that
1:29:47it is what it is, truly a right. And in
1:29:50order to do that, we're going to have
1:29:51to, you know, make it so that
1:29:54those big companies
1:29:56no longer dominate the industry.
1:29:59>> We have a closing tradition on this
1:30:00podcast where the last guest leaves the
1:30:01question for the next, not knowing who
1:30:02they're leaving it for.
1:30:03>> Okay.
1:30:04>> And I only get to read it when I open
1:30:05the book. Um the question left for you
1:30:07is this is a [ __ ] unbelievable
1:30:09question. It's an interesting one.
1:30:10What's the hardest question you weren't
1:30:13asked? What's the hardest question I
1:30:15wasn't asked?
1:30:17I'm not going to ask you the question,
1:30:18just for the record.
1:30:19I mean, the family questions you asked,
1:30:21I mean, what what hits you most
1:30:23emotionally effectively is the hardest
1:30:25questions that I don't get asked.
1:30:28Mark, thank you so much. Thank you for
1:30:29for many reasons, for being a personal
1:30:30inspiration to me because I remember
1:30:32multiple times where I stumbled across
1:30:34your life story or your work or your
1:30:36ideas at a critical moment that either
1:30:38gave me a bit more belief, that gave me
1:30:40some patience,
1:30:42um, that gave me some wisdom,
1:30:43[clears throat]
1:30:44um, but also, you know, the the other
1:30:46layer of context I now have is just
1:30:47having spent some time with you as a
1:30:49person. And the one of the real things
1:30:51of outside of the wisdom that I come
1:30:52away with and outside of the sense of
1:30:53purpose and family is, um, the
1:30:56realization that you can be both very,
1:30:58very successful
1:30:59and you can be a good person
1:31:02and a happy person and a positive
1:31:04person.
1:31:04>> Let's not go too far.
1:31:05>> Yeah, [laughter] but that's how you
1:31:06feel. That's the energy you have. And
1:31:07obviously I've sat down with 700 people,
1:31:08so you get to see lots of things. So
1:31:10it's been a real pleasure and thank you
1:31:11for the inspiration. Thank you.
1:31:13>> Thank you, Steven. I really enjoyed it.
1:31:14It was great.
1:31:15>> Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy
1:31:16algorithm where they know exactly what
1:31:19video you would like to watch next based
1:31:21on AI and all of your viewing behavior.
1:31:23And the algorithm says that this video
1:31:26is the perfect video for you. It's
1:31:28different for everybody looking right
1:31:29now. Check this video out. I bet you you
1:31:32might love it.

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