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Marc Lamont Hill DEBATES Candace Owens — Transcript

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0:00to obviously the hot topic of today um
0:02which was um the killing of George Floyd
0:05uh the protests that have ensued all
0:07across the country because of that and
0:10my comments which seem to have shocked
0:13the world um about me not believing um
0:17that he was deserving of this martyr
0:19status meaning four funerals I think now
0:22we're actually at five funerals publicly
0:24a golden casket uh the vice president
0:26showing up at his funeral um or I I
0:29think eventually he decided to just do a
0:30video of the former Vice President Joe
0:32Biden and celebrities there. And I
0:34thought that that actually sent um not a
0:36great message publicly to the
0:38>> I saw your comments. I was like, "Oh,
0:39why did you say that?
0:40>> What did you think about my comments?"
0:41>> Oh, the in fact I was watching them this
0:43morning again. Uh I thought they were
0:45off base. I think I I think you pointed
0:48out some things that may be factually
0:50true but are beside the point. So to
0:53say, for example, that George Floyd uh
0:56had a criminal past. True. Right. Uh I
0:59don't know whether there's drugs in the
1:00system or not. You know, I'd want to see
1:02a little more evidence. But let's let's
1:03let's say for a moment that the autopsy
1:05reports that we say are correct, the
1:07private one private and public so far,
1:08right?
1:09>> Um
1:11>> I'm not I I don't see an argument for
1:13why that should make any difference.
1:15Now, you concede that what the police
1:16officer did was wrong, which I
1:17appreciated because if we don't start
1:18there, then it's not a good faith
1:19argument, right? Then it's like, what
1:20are we talking about? Mhm.
1:22>> The problem is those things can be a
1:25distra can be used as a distraction from
1:26the the the point that you did touch on
1:28which is that this was wrong and that
1:29state violence is wrong.
1:31>> Uh no matter who it's against and to me
1:34whether he was on drugs, whether he
1:36robbed 10 stores is irrelevant to this
1:38particular conversation.
1:40>> Yeah. No, I think so. For me, I think
1:42it's actually very relevant and not to I
1:44I I wasn't saying that to overshadow the
1:46conversation. And I actually didn't
1:48think that the shadow that the
1:49conversation was being overshadowed
1:51because it was the actually the first
1:52time that there was a full consensus
1:54left and right that this police officer
1:56was wrong. There was nobody disputing
1:58it. I mean, even in the Trayvon Martin
1:59situation, you had left and right,
2:02different opinions, different beliefs of
2:04what actually took place. This one, it
2:05was just rock solid across the board.
2:07Everybody agreed. Um, including the the
2:09police station. I mean, the the chief of
2:10police came out and said that it was
2:12completely wrong. You know, who was a
2:13black chief of police in Minneapolis. um
2:16the fastest process ever um to
2:18investigate it and to get him arrested.
2:20So, I mean, in terms of justice being
2:22served, it was immediate. Um so, what I
2:24didn't understand, you know, was why we
2:26had the response of protests um when
2:29justice was served, right? You're
2:30usually protesting because you've been
2:32agrieved or there's been a wrong and
2:33you're looking for something to be
2:35corrected. This was not that
2:36circumstance. And on top of that, there
2:38was a glorification happening of him
2:40where people were actually saying that
2:42this was a he was a hero. We had little
2:44kids wearing t-shirts calling him, you
2:46know, George Floyd hero in these
2:48marches. I was looking at these t-shirts
2:50and that's wrong. I just I can't get
2:51behind that. This I mean, if your point
2:53is that you're defending black lives,
2:56this whole platform is supposed to be
2:57about black lives. George Floyd spent
2:59his entire life harassing black people
3:02and and destroying black lives. So, how
3:04I just don't see how how it can be both.
3:05>> That's fair. So, it's it's I would
3:08disagree with that. Let me So, the first
3:09point is there the justice wasn't done
3:12yet, right? One officer at the time of
3:14the protest, one officer was arrested.
3:15There were three who stood there with
3:17their hands in their pockets doing
3:18nothing, watching him die. They were
3:20complicit and there was there was no
3:22there they were fired, right? But they
3:24weren't arrested.
3:25>> So, you felt they should have been
3:26arrested immediately.
3:27>> Uh
3:28>> they were rookies. So, I I I mean, I was
3:29trying to be a little sensitive to the
3:30fact and I still don't know how I feel
3:32about that. Like, they were rookies. It
3:34was their third or second day on the
3:35job. This guy was a senior, you know,
3:37had a senior position. He's been here
3:39for years. Yeah,
3:40>> they were probably, you know, second or
3:42third day on the job, you're looking at
3:43this guy and you're going, "This must be
3:45the right thing to do." You know,
3:47>> but if if everyone in America could see
3:50that this was the wrong thing to do,
3:51right? Like you said, bipartisan
3:53agreement that this is not what we're
3:55supposed to do.
3:56>> Um, again, there there is there is a
3:58herd mentality. There's a gang mentality
3:59that often occurs even with police
4:01sometimes, especially with police where
4:02you see something awful happen and
4:03nobody wants to be that person to say,
4:04"Hey, stop." But that's the job.
4:07>> Especially a rookie though. But but I I
4:09can't let him off the hook for that.
4:10>> Even if I was at if it was my first day
4:11at Starbucks and I saw a manager
4:14stuffing cash into his pocket my first
4:16or second day, I'm not I'm not going to
4:17be the person to raise that issue
4:18because you're just going I don't know
4:20if this is supposed to be going on, but
4:21I'm going to keep my mouth shut. And
4:23again, I'm not
4:23>> That's a bad example because that's not
4:25doing harm. What if you saw on the first
4:26day the manager spitting in someone's
4:27coffee? You wouldn't say, "Oh, I don't
4:29I'm a rookie. Maybe this is how we do
4:30things." You could imagine as that's
4:32happening live that somebody might just
4:34be looking around versus if I if I've
4:36been there for a few years I'm going to
4:37be like what the heck did you just do
4:38because you're not comfortable in a job
4:40in your first couple day. Everybody's a
4:41new person. So I was a much more
4:43sympathetic to the ones that were
4:44standing by. I'm not defending them but
4:46I'm saying I tried to be a little more
4:48understanding. Derek Schovin you look at
4:50and you're like this guy has been
4:51working on this police force forever.
4:53He's the one doing all this stuff. They
4:54just looked like uncomfortable idiots
4:56and that's what they I think they were.
4:58Right. But but that's why I'm going to
4:59the point of people didn't feel like
5:00justice. It wasn't like, "Oh, we got our
5:01justice, but let's tear [ __ ] up anyway."
5:03Can I say, "Can I curse?" Yeah. People
5:05like, you know, we you know, we just
5:06tear up anyway. People were wanted
5:08accountability from these four officers
5:10and they didn't get it. And so, and
5:12whether we think it was fast or slow is
5:13not really the point. I'm just saying I
5:15would dispute the idea that that justice
5:16was solved and we we kept going. Anyway,
5:18the other point here that you raised,
5:20which is an interesting one, is about um
5:23well, actually, let me say one more
5:24thing about the first point. The other
5:25thing here was these protests weren't
5:26just about George Floyd. They were about
5:28they were about a sea of issues and this
5:30was like the the culmination point which
5:31often happens in history and we can talk
5:33about that. The the other thing though
5:34um I think about raising him to the
5:36level of hero
5:38first of all I think whenever someone is
5:40eulogized right and these were national
5:42public eulogies we don't say yeah but
5:45right when we eulogize Reagan right we
5:47you know as a nation there were many
5:50people who who chided black folk you
5:52know and people on the left for
5:53criticizing policy say look there's a
5:55time for that but why are we criticizing
5:56him now in time of mourning why are we
5:58doing this here why are we doing this
5:59now so yeah I don't think at George
6:01Floyd's funeral we should be raising his
6:02criminal his criminal history. But
6:04again, I don't see how that's relevant
6:07to the issue here. No one no one was
6:10saying that he was a champion of black
6:11people his entire life. The point was
6:13regardless of who he is, his life
6:15mattered. His life was worthy of
6:16protection. In some ways, I am actually
6:18interested to think about what it means
6:21for us to fight for someone who wasn't
6:23perfect. Because very often, we only
6:25fight for the the the middle class,
6:26cisgendered, straight, heterosexual guy
6:28who was going to college on Monday like
6:29Mike Brown. And we we have to put
6:30Trayvon on a horse to say that he didn't
6:32need to die. And it's like that's not
6:33the point. You shouldn't have to be
6:34perfect in
6:35>> Well, I think it is the point because
6:36and this is my problem with with our
6:38community is that, you know, black
6:39Americans are hypocrites. We are
6:40hypocrites, right? So you say, "Oh,
6:42well, it's not the point." Well, where
6:43where were we on the issues of kids
6:45getting shot? Actual innocent black
6:47victims being killed, you know, every
6:50every weekend, every day in the inner
6:51cities, nobody cares. You want if you
6:53want to give somebody a funeral and you
6:54want to have it be five days long, why
6:56not do that for Tai Shawn Lee, the
6:58nine-year-old kid who was wearing his
7:00school uniform and playing basketball
7:01when he was lured into an alley by, you
7:03know, an older black man who then shot
7:04him point blank in the head two times
7:06because he didn't like his dad and it
7:08was like, you know, it was gang
7:09violence. Nobody cared, you know. So
7:11this whole idea of there's this uprising
7:12because you care about black lives.
7:13Don't pretend you care about black
7:14lives. You like the political expediency
7:16of caring about a black life, about a
7:18black life if and only w if and only it
7:20only when it they die at the hands of a
7:23police officer or die at the hands
7:24rather of a white person because it
7:25doesn't even have to be a police officer
7:26as long as it's a white person. But we
7:27kill ourselves faster and nobody cares.
7:29Do what can you can you name can you
7:31name the last 10 black people that died
7:33of homicide in this country because it
7:35wasn't it wasn't George Floyd.
7:37>> Of course not. Of course not. But why
7:38not? Well, so because there is a Well,
7:41well, two, let me go to the first point
7:42you made, Tan Lee. Of course, that's
7:44something we should be uh sad about, and
7:47I think black folk are I don't I've
7:48never met a black person who didn't care
7:49about black-on-black violence.
7:52>> We can talk about the protest of that.
7:53Um I just let me finish this other point
7:55though. I think when you get to Taon
7:56Lee, the point is we mourn him, right?
7:59The issue with my issue with you with
8:00George Floyd was imagine if we we we
8:03mourn Taon Lee, we go to his funeral and
8:05then you bring up the fact that he was a
8:06schoolyard bully hypothetically, right?
8:07It'd be like, well, yeah, okay, maybe he
8:09was a schoolyard bully, but that's not
8:10relevant to this thing we're talking
8:11about right now. I'm okay with you
8:13talking about uh violence within the
8:15community. The question is, do we want
8:17to bring it up here? And what what
8:18political work does it do to criticize
8:20him in that space?
8:21>> I think it's especially important to
8:22bring it up there. And and I'm not
8:24talking about being a schoolyard bully
8:25because that that's totally different.
8:26That almost sounds petty. when you're
8:28talking about somebody who ran drugs to
8:30the black community, a huge issue that
8:31black Americans always talk about, oh,
8:32the reason there's so much addiction,
8:34you know, is is because of uh drugs, the
8:36reason that there's drugs, and people
8:37point to idea that, you know, the CIA
8:39ran crack into the black communities.
8:42Um, but then when you want to talk about
8:43why we have this issue of drugs, we we
8:45we we want to martyr somebody who went
8:48to prison five times for selling drugs,
8:50armed robbery, you want to talk about
8:51violence. I mean, we're talking about a
8:53man. This is not a guy who just was
8:54bullying people. I mean, you force your
8:56your your way into a woman's home and
8:58put a pistol to her stomach and threaten
9:01to kill her as you rob her while she's
9:02pregnant. Okay, this guy was a terrorist
9:05in my opinion. I think we are literally
9:06martyring somebody who terrorized the
9:08black community his entire life. I'm not
9:09comfortable with it. Now, if he had done
9:11a 180 at the end of his life, I believe
9:13in forgiveness. You know, I'm not above,
9:15you know, believing that people make
9:16mistakes, but this was not the story of
9:17George Floyd. And that and that is
9:19proven by the fact that he was on the
9:21most addictive um drug that is in
9:23America today, which is fentinyl.
9:24Fentinel is 100 times stronger. How does
9:27that make him a bad person? The more how
9:28does it make him a bad person? I'm
9:29saying the the the idea I'm attacking
9:31the narrative that but then after his
9:34ninth stint in prison, which is by the
9:35way, if you want to talk about a record,
9:36going to prison nine times is very
9:38difficult to do, you know, before you
9:39turn 40 years old. And he did it. Okay.
9:41And then people wanted to say then he
9:43moved to Minneapolis, change his life
9:44around. I have a problem with the lie. I
9:45don't like a lie. He didn't change his
9:47life around. He was still doing drugs.
9:48He was still pushing drugs. and he was
9:50high on fentinyl and methamphetamine at
9:51the time of his arrest, which by the
9:52way, fentinyl literally, quite
9:54literally, is what doctors give to
9:56patients when they want to bring down
9:57their breathing. And my problem is we
9:59can never have an honest discussion.
10:00There are so many black victims in the
10:02world, you know, true victims of
10:03homicide who have done nothing wrong.
10:05Maybe they were high school bullies, but
10:06he was victim of homicide. Yeah. That
10:08that No, I'm saying when I say yeah, he
10:09was a true victim of a homicide. I, you
10:12know, who knows at the end of the day
10:13because right now there's disputes in
10:14the medical examiner reports. Some are
10:16saying that he actually died from
10:17fentinel. you know, his his breathing
10:19was complicated by whatever. Then they
10:21got a private person. I'm not a doctor,
10:22so I'm not going to dispute how he the
10:24manner of his death, but I I am going to
10:25agree that what Derek Schovin did was an
10:27example of police brutality. Um,
10:29regardless of whether or not is exactly
10:30what led to his death. Um, uh, I I just
10:34don't think it's honest. It's just it's
10:36it's not okay to me to elevate somebody
10:37who traumatized black people their
10:38entire lives. He was a bad man, you
10:40know, and and is it relevant? Yeah. When
10:42you're putting him on t-shirts and you
10:43have little kids wearing posters and
10:44crying, yeah, that's to not be your
10:46person that you're looking up to. I
10:47wouldn't tell my kids to find a George
10:48Floyd t-shirt.
10:49>> Yeah. I I don't I don't think the world
10:50is looking up to George Floyd. I think
10:52they're looking to his death as an
10:53example of of what's happening to us
10:55every single day in societies. And I
10:57think that's uh the
10:59>> it's not happening to us every single
11:00day in society.
11:00>> Oh. Oh, it absolutely is.
11:02>> What is
11:02>> excessive force? Police brutality.
11:04>> You're police are killing black
11:06Americans every day.
11:07>> No, brutality. Excessive force. I'm not
11:09talking about death. Uh brutality.
11:11Right. That's the point, right? George
11:13Floyd was beaten. Excuse me. People are
11:16beaten every day. George Floyd was was
11:17attacked.
11:18>> Some people are beaten because they they
11:19are being violent to police officers.
11:21>> So if you look at the data, the data
11:22suggests something different.
11:23>> What does that suggest?
11:24>> The data suggests that even when you
11:26control for the nature of the offense
11:28that they're charged for, meaning
11:29obviously there's a greater chance that
11:31you'll have a physical interaction with
11:32a violent offender than say someone who
11:34passes off a counterfeit bill or someone
11:36who steals a loaf of bread. and you and
11:38you and you control for um all the other
11:41data, all all the other factors which
11:43would mitigate against the argument I'm
11:44making or challenge the argument I'm
11:45making. Blacks and and Latinos are 40 to
11:4850% h face for are 40 40 to 50% more
11:51likely to face excessive force. Now,
11:53when you get to the to death, when you
11:54get to police shootings, the the the
11:57most accurate and recent data from the
11:59studies that are out don't suggest a
12:02racial disparity, right? Black people
12:03aren't necessarily more likely to be
12:04killed by law enforcement every day, you
12:06know, on a day-to-day basis. In fact,
12:08the numbers are relatively low. But
12:10excessive force, absolutely. The data is
12:12is indisputable that black
12:14>> whose statistics
12:15>> I mean, you could study uh by
12:17>> because I've looked at statistics and I'
12:19I've never seen this. And I mean, I'm
12:20talking about uh police people that have
12:22actually been proven to be using
12:23excessive force. There's been no racial
12:25disparity. if there is one white white u
12:28males are more likely
12:29>> they're more likely to be you're looking
12:30at the you're looking at the death
12:32>> not just killed ex you know excessive
12:33brutality I'm talking about I'm not
12:34talking about filings because you might
12:36be talking about filings
12:36>> no no I'm I'm talking about even if you
12:38even when you look at I give you an
12:39example Roland Frier uh has a study in
12:412019 the journal of political economy
12:43that's been reviewed peer-reviewed etc
12:46there's and he actually pushes back
12:47against more uh stronger arguments on my
12:51side which I'm not invoking because I
12:52would say I think Roland study's
12:54actually more accurate and and and less
12:56in my favor. But the data that they're
12:58submitting, ironically, is is is from
13:00police departments, right? So, so we
13:02could intuitively believe that the most
13:04racist police departments aren't
13:05submitting the data. So, these are
13:06police departments say, "Hey, we're
13:07doing this, right? We're willing to show
13:08you this stuff." and 40 to 50% um of
13:12that um 40 40 to 50% higher rate among
13:15black and brown people of excessive
13:17force being thrown to the ground being
13:19uh also being handcuffed without
13:21>> why are they being so just to introduce
13:22that data and say they're being thrown
13:23to the ground means nothing unless you
13:24say what the reasons were for them being
13:26thrown to the ground. Do you get what
13:27I'm saying? So that becomes that that
13:28becomes that data is very subjective.
13:30Now if you're saying like you know they
13:31threw him to the ground because he was
13:32running and they had to throw him to the
13:34ground and you saw a police report where
13:35they've studied and it says this person
13:37was was thrown to the ground and he was
13:38black. Okay. Okay. Well, the answer
13:39could also be that you look with the
13:40statistics of who's more likely to fight
13:41back against police officers, and the
13:43answer is black people. So, data can
13:44always be manipulated to give you the
13:46answer you want to hear, which is why I
13:47think the most concrete
13:48>> I want you to look at the study though,
13:49cuz they actually addressed the point
13:50raising. They said,
13:51>> I think the most important, you know,
13:52concrete data to look at, and I'm glad
13:53you've already acknowledged it, is that
13:55there is no racial disparities when you
13:56look at the numbers of who's actually
13:58dying at the ends of police officers.
13:59So, the entire narrative um that's out
14:01there right now in the world is just
14:02patently wrong. If you're talking about
14:04deaths now, you know, white Americans
14:05are 25% more likely to be killed by
14:07police officers. If you're talking about
14:08deaths, police officers are 18 and a
14:10half times more likely to be killed by a
14:11black man than the other day around. Why
14:13aren't police honestly a protest by
14:15police officers against black men would
14:16make more sense? 18 and a half times
14:19louder.
14:19>> No, it wouldn't. And and this goes to
14:20the question you asked about why we're
14:21not protesting black-on-black crime.
14:24>> I there's prisons are filled with black
14:27people for killing black people. Prisons
14:29are filled with black people.
14:30>> No, many of them are not caught.
14:32>> No, no, I'm I'm not saying everyone who
14:33does it is caught. My point is that
14:34black people have a good faith
14:36expectation that we'll go to jail for
14:37kill for doing crime, right? It's not
14:39like there's there's no narrative that
14:40black people don't go to jail for stuff,
14:41right? The problem is with law
14:43enforcement when when it's the other way
14:44around when law enforcement does crime
14:45against us or does the daily ritual of
14:47excessive force against us, um we now
14:51don't have a good faith belief that they
14:53will be arrested, that they'll be fired,
14:55that they'll be arrested, that they'll
14:56be tried. And if they are tried, we have
14:57no belief that they'll be found guilty,
14:59even if the evidence is overwhelming.
15:00And so what we're protesting against is
15:02a system that is supposed to be honest
15:04and fair but isn't and doesn't yield
15:06just outcomes. So part of why when when
15:09somebody in my neighborhood, you know,
15:10gets shot and then they that guy gets
15:12carried out in handcuffs, we're not
15:14protesting, not because we're not
15:15outraged by it, but protesting doesn't
15:17actually stop person A from killing
15:20person B, right? The protest is to stop
15:23at the at the level of the neighborhood.
15:24But when it comes to police, the idea is
15:26that we're protesting a system that's
15:27supposed to protect us. and they have
15:28the highest uh responsibility.
15:31>> Yeah. But I mean again looking at the
15:33data and again I'm talking about death
15:35because excessive force as soon as you
15:36use the word excessive um because it's
15:39an adjective it lets you know that it's
15:40subjective, right? Excessive is like
15:41saying tall or short.
15:42>> No no it's not it's not No, that's not
15:43subjective. They they they've
15:44operationalized it. So it's specifically
15:47uh use of violence when when not use of
15:50violence beyond what's necessary to
15:52detain a suspect or use of violence
15:54that's unprompted. Right? So they've
15:56operationalized this and again they're
15:58basing this also on the response of the
16:00officers, right? They're basing it even
16:01on officer reports. That's I I strongly
16:03encourage you to read the study.
16:04>> I mean I I will again because I'm flying
16:05in the dark here because you're tell
16:06you're telling me about a study that I
16:08haven't actually read and I definitely
16:09have studied this and like I as I said
16:12perhaps they have operationalized it and
16:14there's a way to determine what's
16:15considered excessive force. I don't know
16:17that and perhaps you're right. I don't
16:18have that study in front of me. What we
16:19do know is that people that are
16:21protesting out today are not protesting
16:23because they believe that police
16:24officers are using excessive force.
16:26>> Oh, they are. The whole mainstream
16:29narrative when they're having people on
16:30and talk on CNN and Black Lives Matter,
16:32their entire platform is about black men
16:35dying unarmed at the hands of police
16:36officers. It was founded upon that
16:37concept. So, I hate the fact that we're
16:39now shifting and pretending it's about
16:41something else and we're widening the
16:42net and we're making it about excessive
16:44force studies that nobody is talking
16:45about on CNN. Everybody is talking
16:47specifically about the idea that a black
16:49man that is unarmed is likely to die at
16:51the hands of a police officer and that's
16:52fraudulent. It's a fraudulent. It's a
16:54lie.
16:54>> So it one Black Lives Matter actually
16:57wasn't founded on that. It was founded
16:58on um Trayvon Martin's death which had
17:00nothing to do with law enforcement.
17:01George Zimmerman wasn't a law
17:02enforcement officer. So from the
17:04beginning we're talking about the kind
17:05of sense of unsafety unprotectedness
17:07that black people experience not just
17:08from law enforcement but really around
17:10the you know in every sector of of our
17:12lives. black people, not just men, but
17:14women and and and anyone else. Um,
17:17that's the first thing. And and I think
17:18Black Lives Matter has always talked
17:20about uh the daily violence, among other
17:23things. If you look at the movement for
17:24Black Lives policy statement, they're
17:25talking about all kinds of stuff. It's
17:26it's always been a
17:27>> it's actually most about LGBT movement.
17:29Now,
17:29>> it's it's a wide it's wide net, but it's
17:30it's an interesting,
17:31>> but that's the problem that you create a
17:32wide net when you when you're full of
17:34[ __ ] right? When you know you're
17:35bullshitting. It's like we're not just
17:37about we're about trans rights and
17:40police. It's like maybe one sentence now
17:42that's even about police anything.
17:44They've really kind of dwindled it and
17:45it's actually more about equality for
17:48trans something.
17:50>> But this is but this is but Candace, I
17:51would think this would be up your alley,
17:52right? Not the trans part. Um definitely
17:54not up my alley.
17:55>> But but the idea that we're not singling
17:58out the police. We're saying that we
18:00should care about black lives in all
18:02sectors. I mean that's part of part of
18:03the argument you're making about
18:04black-on-black violence is one about
18:05saying we should care about black life
18:06not just when it when when it's
18:08threatened by police, but everywhere.
18:09The movement for black lives is saying,
18:11"Look, we care about poverty. We care
18:12about certainly state violence. We care
18:15about food insecurity. We care about all
18:17of these things because they they they
18:18connect." So,
18:19>> but they're lying. That's the whole
18:20point. You can put that statement on
18:21your website, but then when your
18:23solution to that is to go into streets
18:24and to riot and to burn down and to loot
18:26and every time they have a protest, it
18:28ends this way. So it's not like there
18:29was like that there was not like there
18:30was that one time where they started
18:32every time black lives matter matter
18:34narrative starts running in the media
18:35black people die but people's
18:37neighborhoods get burned down from the
18:39start of tra of Trayvon Martin moving on
18:41to Freddy Gay and here we are today with
18:43George Floyd with Amad Arbory this is
18:44what happens every single time so if
18:46there was that if there was that if
18:48there was that one time there may have
18:49been other protests that were I'm not
18:50saying I'm not you know condemning all
18:52protesters I believe in protest pushing
18:53back against every time narative no what
18:55I'm saying is every time their narrative
18:57like when I say becomes comes
18:58mainstreamed every time their narrative
18:59every time you go whoop we're doing
19:01Black Lives Matter again. You can bet
19:02your ass all across the nation black
19:04neighborhoods are going to burn out.
19:05People are going to lose their jobs and
19:06black people are going to lose their
19:07lives. Right? So that that's that's the
19:09hypocrisy. The idea that they care about
19:11all this other stuff when in fact every
19:12time they're protesting it is
19:14specifically about police brutality.
19:16Okay. And black people suffer. So if
19:18your if your solution is worse than the
19:21problem, it's not a solution.
19:22>> So
19:22>> how many black people have died in these
19:24George Floyd protests? So that's that's
19:25>> how many black people have been arrested
19:26because of these George George Floyd
19:28protests. How many black people have
19:29been impoverished because of these
19:30George Floyd protests? That's when it's
19:32a good time to sit back and say, "Is
19:33what I'm doing working?"
19:34>> Okay. So So let's look at that. So I I
19:36think uh one I'm it's an interesting way
19:40to frame this. Um Black Lives Matter
19:42protests happen every day and they've
19:43happened since 2014. Um your point is
19:46that the media when when when it becomes
19:48a the national narrative becomes, you
19:49know, this is a BLM moment, [ __ ] is on
19:51fire. What I'm asking you to consider is
19:53that part of what happens is when [ __ ]
19:54is on fire, they throw BLM onto it,
19:56right? That they don't that they don't
19:58account for all these other I mean, I go
19:59to BLM protests all the time where
20:01people are marching. And we're not just
20:02marching against police violence. Again,
20:04that's just the sexy story. Cable news
20:06doesn't actually care about black food
20:08insecurity or or or or trans I mean, one
20:11of the most vulnerable populations are
20:13black trans women uh in terms of being
20:14subject to death. Again,
20:16>> but that's because the majority of
20:17what's the reason that they have a
20:18higher death rate?
20:19>> Well, I mean, there there are a few
20:20reasons. There are structural factors,
20:21but my we can talk about that too, but
20:23my point is we don't cover it. So So
20:25part of it is that it's part of it is
20:26not that black people don't care about
20:27this stuff. It's it's what's sexy to to
20:29corporate media. Sexy to corporate media
20:31is black people burnish it down,
20:32>> right?
20:33>> So So
20:34>> that's fair. I I would totally give you
20:35that. That is usually when it's it's the
20:38media.
20:38>> One for us guys.
20:40No, I mean look, I I have said that how
20:42you know 90% of our problem is the media
20:44and and but at that point though, if
20:46your movement is being hijacked and
20:48that's how it's being portrayed, how do
20:50you combat that?
20:52>> Well, I think you have to one, you have
20:54to decide if you care what the dominant
20:55media narrative is and also what again
20:57what political work does that media
20:58narrative do? Because I'm not I I don't
20:59also want to pretend that the rebellions
21:01that we've been seeing around the
21:02country aren't significant and aren't
21:04valuable. You know, I just don't think
21:05they can be the only game in town,
21:07right? If you're if if
21:08>> you think the rebellions are good.
21:09>> Yeah. Oh, yeah.
21:11>> These autonomous cities, the burning and
21:12looting of black community and of the
21:14black black communities homes and
21:15burning down of the neighborhoods, these
21:16black people that are crying on screen
21:18saying that their neighborhoods are
21:19being destroyed. You see that as a good?
21:20>> No. What I'm saying is that I see a
21:23movement of uprisings around the country
21:24as good. Now, we can discuss tactically
21:26whether each specific act is wise.
21:29>> Tell me how it's good. Let's just let's
21:30take Minneapolis the first one when they
21:32burned down the city. Tell me how you
21:33look at that and said this is good. So,
21:35so one thing is that again black death
21:36is so ordinary in this country, right?
21:39>> Yeah. Because we do it the whole time to
21:40ourselves
21:40>> and black death is so ordinary in this
21:43country regardless of how we sort of we
21:44can we can analyze why in a in a moment
21:47but um getting the nation to stop and
21:49pay attention often requires the
21:51spectacle the spectacle of violence
21:53right I'm not talking about killing
21:54people. I'm not talking about doing harm
21:55to people. I'm talking about even like
21:56tearing up a store. Right? If you look
21:57at Martin Luther King just as one
21:59example Martin Luther King leveraged the
22:00spectacle of violence to get America to
22:02pay attention. The only difference is
22:03Martin King said, "We're going to
22:05strategize so that we get beat, right?
22:07We're not going to tear other people up,
22:08but we're getting beat, right? I mean,
22:09the Pettis Bridge was was the idea of
22:11being on the Pettis Bridge was, you
22:12know, that if we if we protest here that
22:15they will that that these police will
22:17come and harm us and that America
22:18>> really brilliant strategy because it
22:20showed America that the problem was the
22:22police. Do you think the spectacle right
22:23now is showing America the problem is
22:24the police, the problem is
22:25>> No, it's not. When you look at these
22:27riots, it is not. You This is the exact
22:29opposite of Martin Luther King strategy.
22:31the exact opposite. Martin Luther King
22:33said, "We're going to go in and be
22:34peaceful and we're going to watch them
22:36send dogs on us. They're going to set
22:38their fire hose on us and when the whole
22:40world sees these clips, they're going to
22:42realize that the problem is rap are
22:44white people that are racist and the and
22:46the governments that are sp allowing
22:48this terror to go on." Okay, win. He
22:50crushed that. It was a brilliant
22:51strategy. Right now, black America's
22:53strategy is we're going to go in and be
22:55violent. We're going to go in and loot.
22:57We're going to go in and take the TVs.
22:59And then America's going to think, hm,
23:01Black Lives Matter is a terrorist unit.
23:03And that's exactly what the concept is.
23:05It is. It is.
23:06>> But I guess what what I'm pushing back
23:07first, what I'm pushing back against is
23:08>> we don't look good. This is not making
23:09black people look good.
23:11>> The the first thing I push back against
23:12is this idea that the only time we can
23:14engage in the type of resistance is if
23:16we're if our bodies are the ransom for
23:17justice, right?
23:18>> I'm just telling you it's not Martin
23:18Luther King strategy.
23:19>> No, no. I'm with you. I'm I am agreeing
23:21that it's not. I'm I'm saying it's not
23:22the exact it's not the same tactic. The
23:23overall strategy is still to use
23:25violence and the spectacle of violence
23:27to get justice. Right. But and you're
23:28like it's and what I'm hearing you say
23:30is that's cool if the dogs are biting us
23:32and the hoes are spraying us.
23:33>> I'm saying you're not the message you're
23:34going to deliver is that black people
23:35are violent. So using the idea and you
23:37and you have just already said that you
23:38thought Martin Luther King had a good
23:39strategy and I agree with you. What we
23:41are doing is the exact opposite of that
23:42strategy. So we are showing that black
23:43people are violent, that black people
23:45loot, that black people rob, that black
23:46people kill one another. That is that is
23:47what is being shown. How you think we're
23:49winning with that narrative? I don't
23:50know. I don't I don't know who right now
23:52is thinking I'm so glad we we uh took
23:54those TVs out of Target and burned down
23:55Target because now people are seeing
23:57small part of what happened. The other
23:58thing is even
23:59>> what was the spectacle that was shown?
24:00>> No, no, I I'll tell you. But when we
24:02when we talk about King, right, because
24:05we there's King in in in marching in '
24:0765, but there's also what's happening in
24:10Watts in ' 65, what's happening in
24:11Detroit in ' 67. You know, there there
24:13are the same rebellions you're talking
24:15about are happening around and what
24:16happened what was the conclusion that
24:18hear my thought out though. My point is
24:20that it's never a single strategy,
24:21right? There's always multiple things
24:23happening, right? There are people
24:24calling for defunding right now and
24:25there are people on the streets just
24:26like King. There are people who there
24:28are people who are marching and getting
24:28beaten by police and there are people
24:30who who who are tearing up Detroit and
24:32Watts. I'm saying we need multiple
24:33strategies. Now, I agree with you. I
24:35would love I would love if and I got to
24:38say I have a bookstore in Philadelphia
24:40and whole bunch of stores on my block
24:41got got smashed. Sneaker store got
24:44raided. Uh uh what else got raided?
24:47Another a hair store got raided. Um my
24:50bookstore did not. Right. My coffee shop
24:52did not. Now,
24:54why? Well, it's not nearly as random as
24:57you might think, right? Much of the the
24:58people, a lot of the stuff is, oh,
24:59you're tearing down your own [ __ ] Most
25:01of the [ __ ] in our neighborhood isn't
25:02ours, right? Most of it are people who
25:04are occupying our neighborhoods. Most of
25:05the stuff we're taking, most of these
25:07homes that are burning, we don't own.
25:08So,
25:09>> so Target, where they hire majority
25:11black people, so you've taken black
25:12people's jobs in in that situation. I
25:14mean, I just I'm trying to see one
25:16positive thing in burning down and
25:18looting and robbing. And I want to go
25:19back because you brought up the, you
25:20know, the the mid60s protests um and the
25:23and the riots rather because they
25:24weren't protests. They're the notorious
25:26Detroit and Chicago uh riots that took
25:28place. They were rebellions, riots, same
25:29thing
25:30>> which are forms of protest.
25:31>> Okay. Sure. What was the end consequence
25:33of that?
25:34>> Uh the voting rights act of 60 uh of the
25:37>> that happened before that 64. The the
25:38riots happened in ' 67 and ' 68. The
25:40>> Oh, you're talking about those, right?
25:42You're talking about different. Okay. So
25:43King dies in ' 68 and we get more civil
25:45rights legislation months later. And
25:47this is in the aftermath of of
25:48rebellion.
25:49>> But what what what was the this is the
25:50thing is people you're looking for a
25:52piece of legislation. But what happened?
25:54Detroit and Chicago were the the
25:56economic booms for the black community.
25:58The riots happened. The rich people got
25:59up and they left and they depressed
26:01those cities for decades. Okay. So the
26:03thing is is that this is the problem.
26:05Everybody wants to be in the now. I'm in
26:06the later. Okay. I'm already hearing the
26:09conversations amongst business owners.
26:10They're leaving. They're going to leave
26:11the cities. So you want to talk about
26:12signing up for another 60 years of black
26:14poverty? It's exactly what we did. He
26:15signed up for black poverty and it
26:16started in the 1960s. First and
26:18foremost, it was a legislation that was
26:20supposed to be helpful. Nope. That led
26:21to economic depression, too, because it
26:22incentivized bad behavior. All of the
26:25the the Great Society Act and all that
26:26stuff that happened in the mid-60s was
26:28not good for black America. Sounded
26:29good. Like everything of Democrats
26:30before sounded great. We're going to
26:32give you stuff, but really it
26:33incentivized father absence. It
26:34welfareized the black community and it
26:36made us it married us to the government.
26:38On top of that, we burned and looted our
26:39own communities thinking that we were
26:40going to get justice. And and and in
26:42what really happened is the business
26:43leaders left, the jobs left, black
26:45people had no jobs, and we were poor.
26:47And we had we had now had 60 years
26:48complaining about the condition of
26:49Chicago and Detroit inner cities, and
26:51we're recreating the wheel all over
26:53again right now.
26:54>> I think it that's that's a heck of a
26:56analysis.
26:56>> It's the truth.
26:57>> No, no, I think it's it's it's it's not
27:00um I
27:00>> it is it's that's what happened in the
27:0260s.
27:03>> Again, it's it's sort of like the King
27:04example. It's not that I disagree with
27:05the particular things you're saying
27:06happened. And I'm saying there's a whole
27:07bunch of other stuff that happened at
27:09the same time which complicates the
27:10story. And
27:11>> this this is not King's Black America.
27:12>> No, no, I'm I'm I'm I'm saying in the
27:14same respect. So, for example, when we
27:17look at um and and I actually talk about
27:19this in my book, Nobody, which you all
27:20should read.
27:21>> All right. Forgot to do that. Yes.
27:23>> I don't want to plug it, but it's
27:24actually relevant to to the topic.
27:26>> Casualties of America's war on the
27:28vulnerable from Ferguson to Flint and
27:30beyond
27:30>> because part of what I talk about in
27:31Ferguson is this very thing. Right.
27:33You're right. There are migrations,
27:35there's white flight, there's then
27:37ultimately you end up with the
27:37suburbanization of poverty in in
27:39Ferguson because Ferguson is a suburb,
27:41right? Then you look at a place like
27:42Chicago, you look at a place like
27:43Detroit, multiple things are happening.
27:45It's not just that black people rioted
27:46and lost the city and and doomed
27:48themselves to poverty for 60 years.
27:50There are
27:51>> you have to look at the shift in in the
27:53economy itself. You have to look at the
27:54the flight of factories which weren't a
27:55response to to um to black rebellion. It
27:58was a response to tax in tax tax
28:00incentives. It was a response to going
28:02uh
28:03>> rebellions. It was the automobile
28:04companies that were making those cities
28:05flourish and they all packed up and
28:06left.
28:07>> Not because everybody again a good
28:08example is Ferguson.
28:09>> They stated it when they left.
28:10>> Yeah. Companies say a lot of things.
28:12That doesn't mean that that's why they
28:13left.
28:13>> They were burning down their factories.
28:15>> No, no. I I understand I understand what
28:16you're saying. I'm saying we have to
28:17look at again a series of economic
28:19policies and the failure of the
28:21government to invest in those
28:22communities in ways that would yield
28:24outcomes.
28:24>> We don't need the government to invest.
28:25What we needed what was what was
28:26happening. That's why those communities
28:27were flourishing. We needed private
28:28companies to come in and to have jobs
28:30and and to stabilize the community. The
28:32last thing black America needs is more
28:34government. Okay? And and it is amazing
28:35to me and I write this in my upcoming
28:37book that the community that has
28:38suffered the most from black pol from
28:40from government policies. You want to
28:41talk about slavery, that was a
28:43government policy. You want to talk
28:44about Jim Crow laws, that was a
28:45government policy. You want to talk
28:46about the welfare system, that was a
28:47government policy. Is now looking to the
28:49government to give them more policies.
28:50The government has never done anything
28:52good for black America, right? It's
28:53never anything that's happened good for
28:54black America has happened because of
28:56private companies investing in
28:57considering businesses good for of
28:59course of course manation but that was
29:02getting rid of government policies if
29:04anything it was it really wasn't new
29:06policy it if you want to talk about what
29:08was wrong with America in the beginning
29:09is that America wasn't obeying or
29:11honoring its own constitution. All men
29:14are created equal. All men have the
29:15right. It actually was not honoring its
29:16own constitution. They created
29:17legislation that went against the
29:19constitution. So America was one big
29:21hypocritical mess when all this was
29:22going on. Once America actually got rid
29:25of all of the policies that they created
29:26that went against its constitution,
29:28which happened, you know, obviously with
29:29allowing women to vote, allowing first
29:31black men to vote, then allowing, you
29:33know, black black women and all women to
29:34vote and getting rid of all that crap.
29:36Then America became what it was supposed
29:37to be when they actually enshrined the
29:38constitution.
29:39>> So, so, so why not then imagine the
29:42government as having the capacity to
29:44expand on that promise, right? to expand
29:46on that promise of life, liberty, and
29:47pursuit of happiness of all people being
29:48created equal through proper
29:50legislation. For example, I mean, you
29:52you would say you would agree the
29:54Marshall Plan certainly helped, you
29:55know, certainly helped the white middle
29:56class after World War II. I mean, it it
29:58it created economic incentive. It
29:59invested in them to say, well, now for
30:02black folk, we don't need that. We need
30:04less government. No, we need the invest
30:06the investment. So, you do know
30:07governments don't make money, right?
30:09>> I'm not suggesting governments make
30:10money.
30:11>> So, how is the government? You keep
30:12saying government give us money, give us
30:13money. What is wrong with that?
30:14Governments don't make money. Job people
30:17make money, right? Capitalism makes
30:18money. New jobs, new businesses, new
30:20ideas. The one thing that the government
30:22can do to help black America is what
30:23Trump's doing right now. Deregulate,
30:25right? Stop with all putting all of
30:26these traps and barriers for people that
30:27have good ideas and that are
30:28entrepreneurs, you know, to come out and
30:30actually say, "I want to start this
30:32business." For example, my cousin who
30:33lives in the projects want to start a
30:34food truck, right? Great cook, love.
30:36There was about and this is this was
30:37under Obama 20,000 pieces of regulation
30:40stop him from him to be able you got to
30:41have this done this on this
30:42certification the government just messes
30:44stuff up that's the problem right we
30:45don't need the government does not make
30:47money so saying the government needs to
30:48invest in black America doesn't even
30:49make any sense
30:50>> no it does because the argument is that
30:52we as a nation flourish when we invest
30:55for example give you
30:56>> private citizens
30:57>> when no but you have to create the
30:59conditions for that that's what I mean I
31:00don't mean invest in the same way you
31:01invest in Sears and Robuck in 1950 I'm
31:03saying invest in the people in the sense
31:04of create equal opportunity and put
31:06capital in in spaces and allow for the
31:08flourishment of capital in places.
31:09>> Yeah. Deregulate agree. I'm agreeing
31:11deregulating like equal equal
31:12opportunity zones which the president is
31:13doing now saying well we'll give you a
31:15tax break to that's incentivizes a
31:17private business to come in and build
31:18their businesses in Chicago. We will
31:20give you tax breaks if if you build your
31:22hub here in Chicago. That's the
31:24government's job.
31:24>> And what if the government says we but
31:26you have to have x number of black
31:27people because of historic patterns of
31:29discrimination? You'd be you don't you'd
31:30be okay with that, right?
31:31>> No. Why would I be okay with that? I'm I
31:33would hope it would be because that's
31:35that's the type of regulation I'm
31:36talking about.
31:36>> No, we can't we can't ask for racism to
31:38combat racism. That's just I mean it's
31:40just so foolish people keep saying this.
31:42So we need to have quotas. I don't want
31:43quotas. I I'm not I'm not okay with
31:45affirmative action. All of that is
31:46racism. It's all racism. Okay. It's
31:49racism because we are smart enough to
31:50get into schools. We're smart enough to
31:51get into schools. I just met your
31:52daughter. She seems pretty smart. I
31:53don't think she needs the government to
31:55help her out to get into school. She's a
31:56smart girl. Okay. It is a bigotry. It is
31:58a soft bigotry of low expectations which
32:00is which is a phrase that was coined by
32:01George HW Bush. When you are saying to
32:04someone George W. Bush correct when you
32:06are saying to someone we have to do this
32:08so you can get into school. What you are
32:09saying to a black person is you're not
32:10smart enough to get into the school by
32:11yourself.
32:12>> No, that's not what they're saying at
32:12all. That is what you're saying.
32:13>> No, what they're saying is is that
32:14there's a pattern discrimination and and
32:16and and a lack of access.
32:18>> Just make it merit based. Don't even put
32:19your color when you when you apply for
32:21school. That's not that's not
32:22discrimination. It means you didn't get
32:23in because you the best.
32:24>> If everything were facially neutral, I'd
32:25be fine with that.
32:26>> Yeah. That's what I'm asking for. that
32:27that so the that is the answer. No
32:29racism, no discrimination.
32:30>> If it were facially neutral, but but
32:32underneath it were were contextually
32:33neutral. I'd be fine with that. If
32:35everybody had the same chance, for
32:36example, if if all of us in this room,
32:38right, uh there's a guy over there who
32:40was 7 feet tall. Um she's a very tall
32:42staff. There's 7T tall and we try out
32:44for the NBA together, he has a better
32:46shot than I do.
32:47>> Yeah.
32:47>> Because he's 7 feet tall. Correct. And
32:49he might be better at basketball than
32:51I'm cool with that. Right. Cuz we're
32:52being measured by the same thing. Right.
32:54We It's the rules are public. The goals
32:55are clear. playing field is level. The
32:57referees are honest, right? I'm cool
32:59with that. The problem is when it comes
33:00to life, it doesn't work that way.
33:02>> How does it not work that way? So,
33:03explain to me how affirmative action
33:04doesn't work that way.
33:06>> I can black kids being actually they're
33:08discriminated in favor of to get into
33:09school.
33:09>> I give I give you I can give you a
33:10couple a couple examples. One, the the
33:12metrics we use to to get people into
33:14school, particularly the SAT. SAT is a
33:16terrible predictor of how well you'll do
33:18in college, right? It's there there's
33:19some data that shows that that it'll
33:21it's somewhat of a predictor of how
33:22maybe how well you do your first year,
33:24but it it's not a very good indicator of
33:25whether you'll finish. It's not a good
33:26indicator what it's not a good indicator
33:28what your final GPA will be. But we use
33:30the SAT. It's a it's a terrible metric.
33:32The metric also shows that it
33:33disproportionately favors middle- class
33:35people. Take race out for a second. It
33:36disproport it disproportionately
33:39uh benefits or benefits middle class
33:42people. And so a middle class kid who's
33:44just as smart, just as talented, works
33:45just as hard and may even have the same
33:47GPA won't perform as well on the SAT. I
33:50mean, the the working- class kid won't
33:51perform as well as a middle- class kid.
33:52Not because he or she isn't as talented,
33:54but because the metric is broken. And so
33:56if I then as at from the school say,
33:58"Look, I'm just taking people on their
33:59SAT scores." It's a facially neutral
34:00metric. I'm saying, "Look, I just want
34:02the best SAT scores." The problem is it
34:04it's not actually necessarily measuring
34:05how smart you are. It's measuring how
34:07middle class you are. Do you see what
34:09I'm saying?
34:10>> Not particularly. No. I don't see how it
34:12measures how many of class you are
34:13>> because because the the the test itself
34:15as it is structured has questions. It
34:17has uh uh
34:20>> like fill in the blank
34:20>> points of reference uh that don't
34:23necessarily measure your your ability to
34:24reason.
34:25>> But that's exactly what it does. It
34:26measures your ability to reason.
34:27>> No, I'll give you an example. If if if I
34:29have in it a um vocabulary, for example,
34:33I'm trying to think of a good one. The
34:34the classic almost cliche now is the one
34:35about the yacht, right? or um it it'll
34:40it'll ask you to complete a logical
34:41syllogism. It'll ask you to to make a
34:44leap in logic, right? To to make some
34:45kind of interpretation of a text. And if
34:47I don't understand a few of the words
34:49that are referenced in the text, not
34:50because it's it's it's it's on my grade
34:52level and I missed it, not because I'm
34:53not smart enough, but because this is a
34:55sort of fairly normal middle class thing
34:56to know, and this is a not a fairly
34:58normal working-class thing to know,
35:00>> um then I'm not actually measuring my
35:02ability to answer the question. Well,
35:04the problem is is that if you can't
35:05answer the question though and then you
35:06you're put into a school, uh, you know,
35:08not because you knew the answer to the
35:09question, but because of your skin
35:10color, you are likely to drop out of
35:12that school.
35:12>> Yeah, but the the data doesn't show
35:13that.
35:14>> It does show that actually. It
35:15specifically shows that. Yes, it does.
35:16And I'm going to push back on this
35:17because I actually just read this um in
35:19Thomas Soul's book. It exactly shows
35:21that. This is why Clarence Thomas it
35:23shows that black kids when they are
35:24mismatched in schools because they are
35:27accepting affirmative action policies
35:28and putting people putting them into
35:30schools where they get that they are
35:31>> if you're saying if you're saying people
35:32are who are mismatched for schools don't
35:33don't don't say I'm not dis
35:35>> yeah and they actually end up being at
35:36the bottom of their class. It's it's
35:38actually bad for black people.
35:38Affirmative action has harmed black
35:40people because here's the problem and
35:41I'm going to tell you exactly what
35:42happened. So Thomas Soul was an adjunct
35:44professor at Cornell University and he
35:47was teaching and he learned that
35:49something like 25% of all of the black
35:51kids were on academic probation. So he
35:53went to go investigate why are all the
35:54black kids in academic probation. Well,
35:55it turns out all of those black kids
35:56were let in based on affirmative action.
35:58Meaning and he said, "By the way, these
35:59were the the top tier black kids in
36:02America. if they had actually got into a
36:04school, maybe they went to uh UNCC
36:06instead of going to Cornell, they would
36:07have been at the top of their class. But
36:08because they mismatched and they put
36:10them into a class that was slightly
36:11higher and they weren't able to compete
36:12at the level of everyone in that class,
36:14they were at the bottom. It doesn't it
36:16doesn't help those kids to finish at the
36:18bottom of Cornell rather than finish at
36:19the top of another school. They could
36:21have been at the top of another school
36:22if they just were matched into the
36:23correct universities. I'm
36:25>> It hurts black It hurts black Americans.
36:26>> I'm disagreeing with that data, but but
36:27with that interpretation of data, but
36:29but I'm also um
36:30>> But it's true. they they're more likely
36:31to drop out and they're finishing at the
36:33bottom of their classes. You can't just
36:34put a kid into Harvard because they're
36:35black. They're going to have to compete
36:37at that level.
36:37>> But but but one that's that's never been
36:40the argument of of affirmative action
36:41for college admissions. Um and that's
36:43not happening. There aren't all these
36:44aren't all these
36:45>> I'm telling you that there is concrete
36:46data that supports that it hurts black
36:48Americans because they they're not
36:50they're finishing at the bottom of
36:51classes where they would be finishing at
36:53the top if they had just went into
36:54schools that they were me.
36:55>> First of all, there's there's absolutely
36:56no way to predict that, right? So that's
36:57not that's not data. That that's a
36:59that's a huge leap of interpretation to
37:00say
37:01>> no it's that what do you mean there's no
37:02way to predict it
37:02>> how can you predict someone would have
37:03>> you can't predict it you can you can
37:04assess it retro you can do a retro
37:06assess
37:06>> how can you retroactively assess that
37:07someone would have been
37:08>> look at all of the black kids right you
37:10look at their SAT scores and you say if
37:12they had actually gotten into this
37:14school which is where they belonged as
37:16opposed to putting them in this school
37:18because they were black so Harvard
37:20saying let's let them in on an
37:21affirmative action basis
37:22>> but I'm saying that's not how college
37:23based admission that's saying what I'm
37:25saying what I'm disagreeing with is is
37:26is the presumption
37:28that we're taking as fact that people
37:30are admitted with who are wholly
37:33unqualified for these uh for these
37:35admissions. They are no
37:37>> below the average SAT score of all the
37:39other Chinese kids and white kids that
37:41get into you know get into these
37:42schools.
37:42>> No, that's what what the way college
37:45admissions works is that with regard to
37:47diversity, with regard to affirmative
37:49action, is that the argument is that
37:50race should be a factor in the
37:52application. Not that you should be
37:53admitted because you're black. Not that
37:55we should have this whole sea of
37:56unqualified people who have like a
37:57thousand SATs and um you know and and
38:02some and and 3.0 GPA. That's that's not
38:04the argument. If that were the argument,
38:05I would agree with you because when
38:06there are situations where people are
38:08mismatched that dramatically, you're
38:09right. They don't do well. That's what
38:10say I was never disputing that point.
38:11What I'm disputing is the idea that that
38:13is that is a the framework for how
38:15affirmative action works or how we've
38:17ever wanted it to work within
38:18universities. The idea here is that one,
38:20we we believe that diversity is an
38:22institutional benefit that we all
38:23benefit when schools are more diverse,
38:25not just black, not just black people
38:26because we got into Harvard, but white
38:28people for having black people there and
38:29vice versa. Right.
38:30>> So, you're against H.B.CU?
38:31>> No, I'm not against H.B.CU.
38:33>> That's weird.
38:33>> No, I'm I'm I'm I'm for white people
38:35being allowed to come to H.B.CU in in
38:38the same way. I I think that that's
38:39that's absolutely
38:40>> What do you think they should have a
38:40quot of white people that are allowed
38:41in?
38:42>> Do I think there should be a quota of
38:43white people
38:44>> to make sure that they're getting a good
38:45diverse experience? you just talked
38:46about.
38:46>> Yes, if there were And then I want to
38:48return to this other point because I
38:49think it's key. Um,
38:51>> it's apples and oranges, but yeah, I'm
38:54>> always apples and oranges when you want
38:55to talk about equality when it comes to
38:56black America.
38:56>> No, because white people aren't being
38:57systematically
38:58>> It's not a racist societ to let them in
39:00based on the color of their skin, but it
39:01is racism if you don't let them in on
39:02the color of their skin.
39:03>> What I'm No, what I'm saying is is that
39:04if there were a history of white people
39:06being denied access to Howard or
39:08Morehouse or Spellman, then I'd say yes,
39:10we absolutely need a quote of white
39:10people because they deserve to be there,
39:12right? But the fact is there aren't is
39:14there aren't a lot of white people
39:15trying to get in.
39:15>> Would you be okay if there was you know
39:17just an all-white school
39:19>> that black people weren't allowed to
39:20enter?
39:21>> That that very few white people entered.
39:23Would you be okay with that?
39:24>> Would I be okay with
39:25>> if they were allowed to go like you just
39:26said the HB.CU?
39:27>> Wait, say that one more time. I just
39:28make sure I heard you right.
39:29>> So your argument that you're saying is
39:31that the reason that you have these
39:32policies is because you think they
39:33benefit from diversity by having a
39:35certain quota.
39:36>> Yeah, we all benefit from diversity.
39:37>> So then do you think would are why are
39:40you okay with H.B.CU?
39:41>> Right. But okay, you were asking me if
39:43there were a white school that had very
39:44few black people, but that black people
39:46were allowed to go.
39:46>> Yeah.
39:47>> Yeah. I'm saying they do. They call them
39:48Yale, Harvard, and Princeton. That's my
39:50point.
39:50>> No, but they have they have quotas.
39:51>> They they don't have quotas. What they
39:53have is uh what they do is they consider
39:56race as a factor in admission. And I'm
39:57saying similarly, yes. I I absolutely
40:00think it's okay.
40:00>> That's racist.
40:01>> No, I'm saying it's racist to consider
40:03>> race. Yeah.
40:04>> So So
40:05>> that's literally like the definition.
40:06>> No, it's not the definition. Considering
40:08race is not the is not the definition of
40:09racism. you
40:10>> you're making a decision right based on
40:13the color of somebody's skin that is
40:14racism.
40:16>> No, it's not making your your your
40:20position if I'm understanding you
40:21correctly is that the even the
40:23acknowledgement or consideration of race
40:24as a factor in anything is racist.
40:25>> Yes. I think it everything should be
40:26merit based. That's true equality.
40:27>> And I'm saying no. Right. So racism it
40:31becomes racist if I am using race as a
40:34factor to discriminate against you to
40:35deny you access to resources to deny you
40:37access.
40:37>> They do that to the Chinese people.
40:38That's why they're suing. And that's why
40:39they keep going to the Supreme Court.
40:40They are now actively not allowing
40:42Chinese people and Asian kids who work
40:44their asses off um and just perform
40:46better than every other race in America.
40:47Sorry. They are at the top of this
40:48society for a reason. Asian-Americans
40:50are being discriminated against because
40:51they want more diversity and there's too
40:53many Asians at MIT or too many Asians at
40:55Harvard and they're saying you can't
40:57come in. We need to let some black
40:58people in even though your test scores
41:00are way higher and you've done more and
41:02you've that that's wrong. That's
41:03discrimination. You're discriminating
41:04against Asians in favor of black people.
41:05That's wrong. It's racism. It's it's
41:07it's it's not discriminatory because
41:09again, if the only measures for getting
41:11into college were GPA and and SAT score
41:16and there were a list of people, right?
41:18And I said, "You know what? You can't
41:20get in even though your score is
41:21higher." You'd have an argument.
41:24College, you know,
41:25>> that's what happens though.
41:26>> It's not when you when you apply for
41:27college your whole time. What they tell
41:29you? You got to be part of this club.
41:30You got to be part of this thing. You
41:32got to do this. You got to There's a
41:33whole thing that we want. We want a
41:35well-rounded student. And there are
41:36multiple factors in admissions, right?
41:38And the other thing any admissions
41:39counselor will tell you is because they
41:40always say, "What if they have the exact
41:42same numbers and one's black and one's
41:43white?"
41:44>> There are never two cases that are
41:45exactly the same, right? They're always
41:46complicated. Admissions decisions are
41:48always complicated. They're always a
41:50whole array of things. And we make
41:51decisions based on fit. We make
41:52decisions based on the well-roundedness
41:54of a person and also what they
41:55contribute to our environment. Right?
41:57So, so to that extent the consideration
42:00of race or or or or geographic origin um
42:04is not something like I wouldn't want
42:06all kids from New York in one school,
42:07right? So often times if if kids are
42:09relatively similar and and we have no
42:10kids from the Midwest and someone from
42:12the West Coast, yeah, you might have two
42:14points higher,
42:14>> but they're not relatively similar.
42:15That's what I'm saying. If if if it was
42:17a merit-based system, all of the top
42:19schools would have all Asians and that's
42:20why Asians are suing and they have they
42:21they should win. I hope they win because
42:23it's racist. We should not be saying you
42:25overperform and there's too many of you
42:26because Asians have a better culture and
42:28they focus on school. They do. I mean,
42:30listen, I say this all they do and and
42:32this is the problem is that we don't
42:33want to acknowledge the fact this is
42:34this is the reason why black America is
42:36never, in my opinion, going to get
42:37better until we're able to have honest
42:38discussions. Every culture is different,
42:41right? There are many different cultures
42:42going on. You know, Latino culture is
42:44different. Asians culture is different.
42:45>> You say Asian, who are you talking
42:46about?
42:47>> Okay. So, I I should be more specific.
42:48Yeah. So, right now a bunch of Cambodian
42:50kids that have never seen camp, you So
42:52right now the the the you know if you
42:54want to talk about in terms of wealth in
42:55America the wealthy the wealthiest
42:56groups are Pakistani, Taiwanese um not
42:59Chinese actually and I think Japanese
43:02right and growing up in envi you know in
43:04environment I grew up in a very mixed
43:06you know uh public school system my one
43:10of my best friends who was Japanese
43:12after school at her house her dad was
43:14crazy about school work I mean it was
43:15like it didn't happen in my house our
43:16cultures were different you know what I
43:18mean didn't happen in my house and my
43:18cousins like really a lot of us we're
43:20I'm raising my cousins. I'm watching my
43:22my cousins, you know, cuz their mom's at
43:25work. They single mother household. So,
43:26the cousins are becoming the
43:27babysitters. Wasn't that way. Her father
43:29was so strict about her work. You know,
43:31she ended up going, you know, to a top
43:32school. That made sense based off of how
43:34she's worked her entire life, right? To
43:36imagine that I didn't end up going to a
43:38top school. And for me to say it's
43:39because of, you know, color of my skin
43:40or she shouldn't be. No, she she worked
43:42harder. Asian culture is different.
43:44Jewish Americans have a different
43:46culture, right? They they also are ones
43:47that tend to value school work a lot
43:49harder. We need to do better in black
43:50America at valuing school work. I wasn't
43:52raised in a household that valued school
43:53work. And I'm not saying all. I'm not
43:54here to paint a broad brush, but I'm
43:56saying over overwhelmingly, you know,
43:58there's a reason why we're dropping out
43:59of high school at a higher rate. No,
44:01>> there are lots of reasons.
44:01>> And but but nobody we never talk about
44:03what we're doing wrong. And it it is it
44:04is culture, right? And even our our we
44:07value breaking down education even via
44:10our our hip-hop, our music, everything.
44:11We we actually value a lack of
44:13education. We see that as black culture.
44:15Do you see? Like Ebonics, that's us,
44:17right? And then lack of education and
44:19then it it what I'm saying is that
44:21you're you're what what Ebonics is is
44:22you're breaking down the English
44:23language, right? And then we're
44:24surprised.
44:25>> It's a dialect of the English language.
44:26>> Okay? It's a dialect of the English
44:27language, but it's not proper English,
44:29right? And then we're surprised when 75%
44:31of black boys can't pass a reading exam,
44:33and then we want to blame the
44:34government, right? 75% of black boys in
44:35California, they want to say, "It's the
44:36government. The government's doing
44:37something wrong. What are we doing
44:39wrong?" Are black do we do anything
44:40wrong?
44:42>> So, you you've hit a lot of a lot of
44:44spots. So, let me let me pick a few. Um,
44:48first, uh, where do I want to go? I
44:51don't want to get too far off of this
44:53because I I still think you're missing
44:54the point of the affirmative action
44:55thing, which is, uh, then I then I'll
44:58address the the PW the uh the the early
45:00the literacy stuff, the the reading the
45:02dropout stuff, right? Um, my argument
45:05isn't again that people should be put in
45:06schools where there's a mismatch. I
45:07agree as a professor. I can tell you I
45:09encounter student I've encountered
45:10students who are mismatched for the
45:12institution for lots of reasons. It's no
45:13fun to teach someone who's mismatched
45:15for the institution. That's the first
45:16thing. One, the second thing I would say
45:19is it's institutional mismatches happen
45:22across the board and there are plenty of
45:23people who don't meet the average of the
45:25school. It's not just black people.
45:26That's for example, legacies oftentimes
45:29don't meet the match. Athletes often
45:31don't meet the the match. Um, uh, who
45:35else? I mean, legacies, donors, and and
45:37and athletes are are three are three key
45:40examples. George Bush, people said
45:42George Bush was dumb. George W. B.
45:43George W. Bush wasn't dumb. his his SAT
45:45score, I believe, is one standard devi
45:47deviation above the average Americans,
45:50right?
45:50>> But it was two below what the average
45:52Yale student
45:53>> did. He was just fine. He turned out
45:55just fine. He He was smart enough. He
45:57got into Yale. He did just fine. Um,
46:00black people are no different, right?
46:02Um, I would rather give that kind of
46:07hookup to use a lack of use a maybe I
46:09use the word hookup. I would rather have
46:11that type of relationship for a student
46:12in poverty and someone who worked hard
46:14than someone who's the benefit of legacy
46:16and privilege.
46:16>> I'd rather have none.
46:17>> I I got you. Yeah. But I and I and and I
46:20I hear you. What I'm saying is from that
46:21point cuz no one no one is complaining
46:23about the athlete. No one is complaining
46:24about the um the legacy. No one's
46:26complaining about the person who's who
46:28who built the building that we're
46:29standing in. You know, I'm talking about
46:31the university. Um we're only talking
46:33about that. But I don't want to get into
46:34what aboutism. Just saying though I
46:35think it's an important point to that we
46:37only talk about this in the context of
46:38black people when it's very much when
46:40they're very much not the ones who who
46:42the biggest often the most egregious
46:43examples of of of institutional
46:45mismatch. The second thing is when we
46:48think about black people in again the
46:50goal when we do admissions is to say how
46:52can we have a diverse student body
46:53because diversity itself is an
46:54institutional asset. So, if this if the
46:56average SAT score is 1400 and there's a
46:58black kid from Compton who has a 1,00
47:01and a 3.9, I might say this person's
47:05probably not a great fit for this
47:07school.
47:08>> Can you explain that diversity being um
47:10an asset?
47:11>> Studies show that that when when groups
47:13are are are um are heterogeneous, uh we
47:17we arrive at more dynamic and creative
47:18solutions. We're able to problem solve
47:19better, that we learn from each other,
47:20and that we're better prepared for the
47:21world.
47:21>> What studies? You sound like one of
47:22those leftist fluffest fluffy studies.
47:24How do how do you measure that?
47:26>> How do you measure that? How do you like
47:27what's the test to see if diversity
47:29>> uh task oriented problem solving with
47:31groups and they they they did them with
47:33homogeneous groups first and groups that
47:35are all the same tend to arrive at
47:36solutions faster if we're all the same
47:38because we tend to think the same. We
47:39tend to have the same kind of ways of
47:41solving problems. But what's interesting
47:43is when we're heterogeneous, it takes us
47:45longer to get there. Um but we offer
47:48more diverse and creative solutions
47:50outcomes. So you have to now you could
47:52ask what your what your goal of school
47:53is. because we could have a debate
47:54about, you know, what you think the
47:55outcome should be.
47:56>> Yeah. Cuz I think that, you know,
47:58there's no such thing as diversity just
47:59because you look different than me
48:01doesn't mean that we're diverse. We
48:03could be from the exact same
48:04neighborhood. It doesn't mean to me, I
48:06think what the one thing that students
48:07that would benefit the most from and
48:08what they clearly don't have on college
48:10campuses is intellectual diversity. So,
48:11this right here would is of much better
48:14use to a college university. two black
48:16look alike, you know, we're the same
48:17color, but you and I are on totally
48:19opposite, you know, playing fields and
48:20this is a positive conversation for
48:22people to to listen to and to hear. This
48:24is great. You don't get this in college
48:25campuses,
48:25>> but what's a predictor of that, right?
48:26So,
48:28>> if I have people from different racial
48:29backgrounds, different class
48:30backgrounds, I mean, we could say the
48:32Supreme Court is diverse, but they all
48:33went to Harvard and Yale, like for law
48:34school, for the for the for the
48:36majority, not all of them literally.
48:37>> My point,
48:37>> right? So, I'm not saying the only
48:39diversity is racial diversity. Uh I'm
48:41not saying the only diversity should be
48:42gender diversity. I'm just saying that
48:43these are factors. I wouldn't want to if
48:45if I if I went to a school where all the
48:47men had the highest SAT scores, um I
48:50would think even if women had slightly
48:51lower SAT scores or men had slightly
48:53lower SAT scores, I'd want gender
48:54diversity. But again, I'm also saying
48:57that your idea of merit is based on this
48:59conception. It concedes that the metric
49:02itself is correct. And I'm asking you to
49:04consider based on all the data that the
49:05SAT and these other metrics aren't
49:07actually good predictors of how well
49:08you'll do anyway. They don't they're not
49:11the SAT the SAT is not a measure if if
49:13the goal of the SAT is is to measure
49:15your aptitude right your your ability
49:17it's not supposed to be a knowledge test
49:18not supposed to be like okay there's 100
49:19things you have to know if you know all
49:20100 of them you win right it's to say
49:22this is a person's prepare preparedness
49:23for college it actually doesn't it the
49:26data shows that it doesn't predict well
49:28how well you'll do in college doesn't
49:30predict what your GPA is going to be
49:31there's no correlation between strong
49:32correlation between your GPA between
49:34your graduation graduation rates and
49:35such so that's why I'm saying even the
49:37idea of meritocracy has to be based on
49:39something. You know, it it would be like
49:41if that sevenfooter over there, if if if
49:42they decided to try us out for
49:43basketball and the only thing they tried
49:45us out for was three-pointers, right? I
49:47might make more three-pointers. He's
49:49seven feet tall. Just give him the ball.
49:50He'll dunk it every time. And and and so
49:52the metric itself may may benefit my
49:54skill set versus that skill set. And and
49:56I'm saying we have to have a more robust
49:58assessment of skills. And so what I find
50:00is not that we are meeting people who
50:01are black people who are far off the
50:03mark in terms of admission. There are
50:05people who are already within the zone
50:07and we're saying let's let race be a
50:08factor too. So yes, I may have a I'm
50:10just pick arbitrary number. I may have a
50:121300 and the white guy may have a a 1350
50:15and I may have a a 3.9 and he may have a
50:183.94 and you may say well his numbers
50:20are higher. I would say one again let's
50:22test the metric but also there might be
50:25value to a school to not going to school
50:26with all white people or all black
50:28people. Again now you I know you
50:30mentioned the H.B.CU U thing, but again,
50:31that's a that's a different context
50:32because they're not being denied access
50:34to it.
50:34>> So, are you I would assume then that you
50:36strongly disagree with um some of the
50:38instances that are happening of uh black
50:40people requesting um all black dorms as
50:43a safe space and as a solution to them
50:46feeling tokenized by the presence of
50:48white people on campus.
50:49>> Two, you ask two different questions
50:51there. In general, I I believe in the
50:53diversity of education, of classrooms,
50:55of dorms, but if there is a situation
50:57where people feel harmed or unsafe,
50:59>> no, not harmed, they just they just
51:00think They feel unsafe.
51:01>> Well, they they use the word unsafe, but
51:02what actually is going on is they feel
51:04tokenized, meaning that there's too many
51:05white people, so they want their own
51:07>> I I think it's okay for people to carve
51:08out their own spaces of any sort.
51:10>> So, you're actually okay with
51:11discrimination, but you refer to it as
51:13positive discrimination because it ends
51:14up being good. Um, in your opinion,
51:16because it is discrimination.
51:17>> No, I don't I don't discrimination.
51:18>> Positive segregation
51:20>> as long as you're choosing segregation.
51:21>> I'm okay with separation, not
51:23segregation. There's a difference.
51:24>> Well, if it's an all black dorm, it's
51:25segregation.
51:26>> It's a separate dorm. Mhm.
51:28>> Uh that's not segregation. Again, white
51:31people aren't asking. Again, Dubo's
51:32College House in in in UN at University
51:34of Pennsylvania is a classic example,
51:35right?
51:36>> How is a all black dorm not segregation?
51:37>> Because white people aren't being denied
51:39access to it.
51:39>> No, that's what they're creating. All
51:41black dorms where only black people can
51:43black people can stay.
51:45>> But again, as a as a practical matter,
51:46white people aren't asking to be in
51:48these dorms. It's not as if there's a
51:49lot of white people saying, "We would
51:50love to be in this dorm, but these black
51:51people won't let us in." Just like
51:52there's not a line of people saying, "I
51:54would." There's not a lot of white women
51:55saying, "Yo, I wouldn't go to
51:55Spellelman, and they won't let me in."
51:57Because the truth is if you
51:58>> That is that is what happens because
51:59then what happens if a white person says
52:01I'm not okay with this is they get
52:02attacked. Um can somebody remind me of
52:04the campus that uh Brett Weinstein got
52:06chased off of?
52:08>> Evergreen.
52:08>> Evergreen campus where they decided it
52:11was only black people were going to be
52:12allowed in the campus for that day. Um
52:14and one professor who was white said,
52:15"Well, I want to stay here and teach my
52:17class." And they um chased him into a
52:19room with a bat. And
52:20>> this shouldn't happen. We can we can
52:21agree with that. But so but
52:23>> that's not the same thing as as an
52:24>> a culture that first off an all black
52:26dorm is racist. And this is what this is
52:27my problem is that somehow we've arrived
52:29suddenly into a place where black
52:30Americans are authoring the exact same
52:33thing that our ancestors fought to end
52:35discrimination. Segregation but we've
52:37made a spin on it and said but this is a
52:38positive form of discrimination. This is
52:40a positive form of segregation because
52:41we're choosing it. It's wrong. It's just
52:43wrong. I mean I I don't see how you
52:45can't just plainly say an all black dorm
52:47is racist. It should be all black, all
52:49white, all it's racist. It should never
52:51exist at all. Okay? You sleep where you
52:53sleep. You don't like sleeping there,
52:55you leave the school, you can decide to
52:56go somewhere else. But we don't play
52:57that game on college campuses. We don't
52:59play, you know, x amount of people
53:01quotas are going to be allowed into
53:02school. It needs to be a merit based. I
53:04don't care what color you are. Let me
53:05see how you perform. Let me see. And
53:07yes, maybe looking at the activities
53:08without knowing what color you are, I
53:09might say, okay, his ST is a little
53:11lower, but he has taken on he was
53:13playing full-time basketball and all
53:14that. So, I think he'd be a good fit.
53:16Again, race does not need to be present
53:17for that determination to be made. We I
53:20>> But why is race the only thing that we
53:21can't consider? So, for example,
53:22>> we shouldn't consider him because it's
53:23racist.
53:23>> LeBron James. If LeBron James were going
53:25into college right now with a lower SAT
53:26score and a lower GPA, you're the
53:29president of the university and he wants
53:30to go to Princeton. He wants to play Ivy
53:32League basketball, right? And he's he's
53:33he's a little bit lower than everyone
53:35else. Do you not let him in because
53:36there's a white guy who's above him?
53:37>> Let him into
53:38>> the school
53:39>> if if his SAT is low and he's not doing
53:41well.
53:41>> But he's extraordinary basketball player
53:42and he's good enough to be in the
53:43school. I'm not saying he's His numbers
53:45are good.
53:45>> You still don't need his race on the
53:46piece of paper to determine that. No,
53:48take his race off. Let's
53:49>> Yeah, take off race. That's my point.
53:50>> Okay, let's pick a white guy. Let's Dirk
53:52Noitzky was wants to apply. My point is
53:54if someone had an extraordinary talent
53:55like basketball, we we we let basketball
53:57players in all the time with lower GPA.
53:58>> But I'm saying that determination
54:01regardless if you're going to say we
54:02want to make sure we have a healthy mix,
54:04you should not be hitting what race you
54:05are period when you apply to school.
54:06>> And that's my point. And what I get I
54:08fully comprehend your point. I'm saying
54:10is is that we should consider in the
54:13same way that we're willing to have a
54:14diverse group of people like I'm I want
54:15to have some flute players and I want to
54:16have some soccer players and I want to
54:18have uh some you know some people from
54:20Iowa. It's okay to say I want some black
54:22people
54:23>> but so is it okay to say that I want you
54:25know Jewish people?
54:26>> Yes.
54:27>> So you're okay with all of it?
54:28>> Yes.
54:29>> We want history of excluding Jewish
54:31people from universities and so we had
54:32to create spaces for Jewish we so part
54:35of why you have a um what's the school
54:37in New York? It begins with a B. a
54:38Brandeise. Part of why you have a
54:40brandise is precisely because there has
54:43been a denial of of Jewish people, both
54:46professors
54:47>> and students into mainstream
54:48universities. So, we had to create space
54:49for them, right? And so, I wouldn't go
54:51to Brandeise and say, "Oh my god, that's
54:53that's that that's a that's a um that's
54:55a that's a that's a segregated
54:56university." I say, "No, good for them.
54:58That's a beautiful choice. And black
55:00people can go there now. White people,
55:01Gentiles can go there now, right?
55:03Christians and Muslims can go there now,
55:04you know, but it's largely a
55:06predominantly and historically Jewish
55:07institution, which is great. And what
55:09I'm saying similarly is I'm okay with
55:10black folk having that. I'm okay with
55:11carving out spaces for ourselves when
55:13we've for people who
55:14>> would never be okay with it if white
55:15people did that.
55:16>> Under if I were at Harvard, I mean,
55:18excuse me, if I were at Howard and there
55:20were a group of white people who said,
55:21"You know what? We're the 50 white kids
55:23at Howard and we want to have our own
55:24space."
55:26Cool.
55:28I'm good with that.
55:29>> An all-white dorm at Howard. You think
55:31that'd be that would go down well? I
55:32don't I I think it's such a
55:33counterfactual hypothetical because most
55:35white people don't want to go to Howard
55:36because they don't want to be around
55:36that many black people and that's okay.
55:38You know what I mean? In fact, most
55:39people who go to you know end up going
55:40to Howard athletes often times for
55:43undergrad, not grades because they're a
55:45division they want to be a division one
55:46basketball player and they didn't get
55:47into Duke or Wake Forest or what they
55:48didn't get recruited but they go they'll
55:50go to Howard, right? Which is a good
55:51school but not the best basketball
55:52school. It's actually interesting
55:54interestingly similar to what happens to
55:55these black kids who going to Duke or
55:56Wake Forest. And so and I'm okay with
55:58that. I don't say why we let that white
56:00guy in as an athlete. Call me crazy, but
56:01I think discrimination is
56:02discrimination. There's no such thing as
56:04positive discrimination. Now, I want to
56:05I just want to move quickly because I
56:06know we're running out of time and I
56:07want to ask you specifically about the
56:10>> Can I ask you a question?
56:10>> Yeah, sure.
56:11>> How did you feel about the Dave
56:12Chappelle thing?
56:13>> Uh oh. Uh like what Dave Chappelle said
56:15about me
56:16>> 846. Yeah.
56:16>> You know, I have a thing.
56:17>> You didn't tweet about it. You tweeted a
56:18lot, so I was genuinely
56:19>> I did tweet about it.
56:20>> Oh, I guess when I woke up, I hadn't
56:21seen it yet.
56:22>> Yeah, I tweeted immediately about it. I
56:23said, you know, I'm not going to be
56:25offended by this because I'm a big
56:26believer that we need comedians. I think
56:28right now we've got we've arrived very
56:29suddenly into a politically correct
56:31environment where comedians get
56:33cancelled. They are said that now
56:34everything they say is too vulgar, too
56:35sexist, too racist, too this and that.
56:37Um, and the comedians are there to
56:40further the conversation and they should
56:42be offensive to everybody, every side
56:44all the time. And I've seen Dave
56:45Chappelle be offensive to conservatives.
56:47I've seen him be offensive to liberals
56:48and they're that space to me um should
56:52be sacred. And so I said, you know, I'd
56:54love to meet him. I've been a fan of him
56:56my whole life. Um, but I will defend
56:58convenience to the death of me to say
56:59what they want. They they need to their
57:00their ground is becoming less and less
57:02sacred and they're being canceled too
57:03often.
57:03>> That wasn't a gotcha. I was I just
57:04genuinely to ask you.
57:06>> I know. Yeah. Everyone thought I was
57:07going to be upset about I'm like, do you
57:08know my brand? I'm not politically
57:09correct, you know, and
57:10>> people are angry might be upset, but
57:11>> yeah. I don't know. I haven't seen her
57:12or talk to her about it, you know, and I
57:14know I know there were some black men
57:16who felt like, you know, this is too
57:17vulgar. We can't be we can't, you know,
57:18be talking like that. But this this has
57:20always been his brand. So, if he had
57:21switched it up and suddenly became
57:23vulgar, then I would be like, this was,
57:25you know, just hateful. but he's always
57:26I've seen all of his stuff. He's always
57:28taken risk. He's always, you know,
57:30really gone in and said stuff like that.
57:31So, I I personally believe comedians are
57:33in a sacred space and they shouldn't be
57:35attacked.
57:36>> Um especially like in today when we're
57:39we're in cancel culture all the time. We
57:41need more comedians to just take risks
57:43and say stuff. Um but I wanted to ask
57:45you uh you know as a last topic about
57:47the LGBTQRSTWxy
57:51and Z agenda. Um
57:52>> the agenda that sounds so nefarious.
57:54>> It is agenda. It is gender when you
57:56start, you know, trying to get policies
57:57placed into school um that allows
58:00teachers to um call your child by a
58:03different gender and as a parent they're
58:04not required to tell you. They could be
58:06calling your little boy Samantha all day
58:09at school and they don't have to tell
58:10you. That's an agenda, right? When you
58:11start trying to systemize it um and you
58:13know to make it uh systemized uh
58:15systemic, it becomes an agenda. And when
58:17you see how vicious that lobby has
58:19become, particularly the trans, I've
58:21said like you had me at the LGB, lost me
58:23at the tea. Um,
58:24>> why why why why the T
58:26>> the T because that's when you started
58:27telling people they were bigots because
58:29they don't want to play the crazy game.
58:30So, here's my point. Um, I think trans
58:33is a a mental disorder. I think there's
58:35tons, you know, gender dysphoria is a
58:36mental disorder. There's tons of mental
58:37disorders out there. There are people
58:38that walk around the street and think
58:40they are Superman. You think they can
58:42they have powers and they can fly and
58:43they're Batman. And I would never want
58:45to see that person attacked, you know.
58:47Um, I grew up in uh a family where one
58:50of my uncles had severe mental disorders
58:52and thought he was an like Indian from a
58:55tribe or something, you know, uh, kind
58:56of got it because he was in solitary
58:58confinement for too long and he actually
59:00went crazy in prison. Um, so I've always
59:02been sensitive to people that have, you
59:05know, mental disorders. Um, but but when
59:08you start saying in society that you now
59:10have to pretend that Candace's uncle is
59:12an Indian and if you don't, you know,
59:14acknowledge him as Pocahontas, then
59:15you're a bigot. you're that's that's
59:17wrong. Now you're putting the pressure
59:18on me to not just be, you know,
59:21accepting of this, but now to play the
59:23crazy game and to say if you
59:25mispronounce and you don't call him
59:27Chief Pocahontas, then you're a bigot. I
59:30don't play that game. I'm like, I'm
59:31going to live in reality. You cannot
59:33live in reality. You can say how you
59:34feel. You can say what you think you
59:35see. You can pretend say that you think
59:37that, you know, we're on Mars right now,
59:38but I'm not going to pretend that I see
59:40Mars because it makes you more
59:41comfortable.
59:42>> So, I I would obviously I disagree. Um
59:46the and and what's interesting is there
59:49are people you say you're you're with
59:50the L and the G and the B. Um there are
59:54people who you know 30 years ago would
59:57have made the exact same arguments
59:59against you for the L the G and the B.
1:00:01They would have said that there's
1:00:02scientific data that there's that these
1:00:04are people who are who are who are who
1:00:05have mental disorders. There's some
1:00:07misalignment between what they desire
1:00:09and what they're supposed to that
1:00:09there's some kind of gender uh uh thing
1:00:12going on that they're confused about. Um
1:00:14and and and and and and
1:00:16you know I think that
1:00:20we have to do a few things. For me I
1:00:22think the easy part and this is the part
1:00:23I think you and I agree on is that we
1:00:26have to accept and we should accept
1:00:29people um as they present themselves in
1:00:31the world. Right? Like if someone says
1:00:33my pronouns are if I told you my
1:00:35pronouns were she um her, you would
1:00:38address me as she and her, right?
1:00:40>> No, I wouldn't.
1:00:41>> Really?
1:00:41>> No. I would call you Mark. Okay. But you
1:00:43wouldn't but you wouldn't call me he?
1:00:45>> No. Because No, I I I mean I would call
1:00:47you Mark. Um you know, if that was
1:00:49something that made you comfortable. But
1:00:51um if I saw you
1:00:52>> and if I said my name was Jane, would
1:00:54you then call me Jane?
1:00:55>> If that was your legal name? Yes.
1:00:56>> But you don't only call me by my legal
1:00:57name?
1:00:58>> Yeah, I call you by your legal name. I
1:00:59don't have any issue with that. But I'm
1:01:00not going to pretend. I'm not going to
1:01:01change what you know these established
1:01:03pronouns for male and female because you
1:01:05say, you know, I'm Mark and here I am.
1:01:06So, what do you So, so I really want to
1:01:09ask I'm this is I'm genuinely curious
1:01:11about this, but first let me just say I
1:01:13think that one this isn't a case of
1:01:15someone thinking they're something that
1:01:16they're not. What people are saying is
1:01:18that there is a misalignment between my
1:01:20sex and my gender. This this No, no.
1:01:22That point my mind and my and my body
1:01:24don't match. That's a disorder.
1:01:25>> That doesn't make it disorder. It just
1:01:27means that the world may be more diverse
1:01:28than we've previously understood it to
1:01:29be. Whether we see it in in plants,
1:01:31whether we see it in animals, there's
1:01:32all kinds of complexity. And we look in
1:01:34in history. I mean even we go back to
1:01:36the continent of Africa we look look at
1:01:37in Asia there's all kinds of of examples
1:01:39of people who have uh complicated gender
1:01:42performances and complicated
1:01:43understandings of gender and how we
1:01:44perform gender can be different
1:01:46>> um but I guess for my question for you
1:01:47would be why
1:01:50if someone identifies as particularly in
1:01:54a you know someone who who you you
1:01:56engage with say it's a colleague at work
1:01:57or whomever family member whoever if
1:01:59they say look I prefer to be called she
1:02:00and her and I I no longer want to be
1:02:02identified by this name why Not why not
1:02:05just honor that?
1:02:05>> If you changed your name, I will honor
1:02:07it.
1:02:07>> But but but why not? I mean, I'm sure
1:02:08you call people by nicknames, dog. I'm
1:02:10sure there you grew up you grew up in
1:02:11you grew up in a black neighborhood,
1:02:12right? I know you you know somebody
1:02:13named Peanut, right?
1:02:14>> Yeah.
1:02:15>> Right. You don't say, "Well, that's not
1:02:16your legal name. I'm your mama named you
1:02:18Joe. I'm going to call you Joe."
1:02:19>> No, I'm saying if a name is one thing,
1:02:21but if you're asking me to change
1:02:22pronouns, I'm not going to do that
1:02:24because these are established pronouns.
1:02:25You're asking me to now change the
1:02:26English language, right? We know why we
1:02:28call female, she, her, girl, woman.
1:02:32Okay? Okay, these are these are words
1:02:33that have meanings. These are words that
1:02:35have meanings. So, this is a book,
1:02:37right? So, could it could you call this
1:02:39this is a book and uh this is a mug.
1:02:42Could you call this a book and call this
1:02:43a mug? Yes, you could do that if you
1:02:44want to change it. But words have
1:02:46meanings, right? So, now if I switch it
1:02:48and you say, "Well, this mug wants to be
1:02:49called a book." It's a mug. It's just a
1:02:51mug. This is this is the word we've
1:02:52established for mugs. This is the word
1:02:53we established for books. So, you're
1:02:55asking me to change the actual meaning
1:02:57of words to accommodate you. I'm not
1:02:59going to do that. Now, I'm not going to
1:03:01do that. It is because not only is it a
1:03:03request, you can now get in trouble in
1:03:04certain states for misgendering someone.
1:03:07>> The request of the trans community is
1:03:08not that I'm actually a man uh but I
1:03:11want you to pretend I'm a woman. The the
1:03:12argument for the trans community, which
1:03:13I agree with, is no, I am a woman and so
1:03:16I want you to revert me as
1:03:17>> but they're you're not a woman. So
1:03:19that's that's the problem. So this is
1:03:20what I say is now you're you've asked me
1:03:22to to take on your mental disorder,
1:03:23right? So I am okay with the fact the
1:03:25the argument from my uncle who thought
1:03:27he was he thinks he's a you know Native
1:03:29American from a certain tribe is that
1:03:32this is what he thinks. He thinks but
1:03:33he's not. Okay. So I I'm not then to say
1:03:36to me that that argument is valid
1:03:38because he thinks it no just because you
1:03:40think something doesn't make it real.
1:03:41Okay.
1:03:41>> But that's exactly what gender is.
1:03:42Gender is exactly about an experience
1:03:44and a performance and a social
1:03:45construct.
1:03:45>> It's not a social construct. Stop saying
1:03:47a social to say that words don't have
1:03:49meaning and they're socially constructed
1:03:50means nothing. And I'll tell you why
1:03:51they are. But you say that, but then
1:03:53you'll let me guess.
1:03:54>> This wasn't always a book. This could be
1:03:55called mud. You know what it is? Our
1:03:57entire discussion about black America
1:03:59meant nothing. There's no such thing as
1:04:00racial injustice. You see what I did
1:04:02there? Cuz black is a social construct.
1:04:05>> Yeah. And we live in a social reality.
1:04:07So within that social reality,
1:04:08>> it can't be both, Mark. So you either
1:04:10think that the gender wage gap is BS,
1:04:12that feminism is wrong, and that racial
1:04:13disparities are all BS because
1:04:15everything's a social construct. You're
1:04:16either going to go full postmodernist
1:04:17and say nothing is real and it's all
1:04:20made up or you're going to acknowledge
1:04:21that there are some hard concrete
1:04:23truths. If there are hard hard concrete
1:04:24truths, you and I are black. Okay?
1:04:27That's not going to change because we
1:04:29wake up and we decide, you know what,
1:04:30today I'm white and it's just how I feel
1:04:32and today I'm Chinese. No, no, no. You
1:04:34and I are black. Okay? We are
1:04:35acknowledged as black people. We're
1:04:36sitting down as black people. I am a
1:04:37woman. You are a man. Okay? Now, if I
1:04:40want to wake up tomorrow and say I'm
1:04:41man, you want to say you're a woman and
1:04:42we want to play the crazy game. We can
1:04:43do that. to then say all of society now
1:04:45is to pretend that it was all a social
1:04:46it was social contract. You were born a
1:04:48male. I was born a female.
1:04:49>> Yes, that's a sex.
1:04:50>> We are black. Okay. It's a color though.
1:04:53Black is a it's a word that we use to
1:04:54say a sex. Female is a word that we use
1:04:57that has a meaning. It means you are you
1:04:58are born with a vagina. You can have
1:05:00children. You have a uterus. When you
1:05:02are a male, you are born with a penis.
1:05:04You can you can get a woman pregnant.
1:05:06These words have real meanings. We
1:05:08cannot suddenly get into society where
1:05:09there are no truths. So, so to
1:05:11acknowledge a social construct does not
1:05:13mean that we ignore biology and it
1:05:15doesn't it doesn't mean that we don't
1:05:17have
1:05:17>> Can men get pregnant?
1:05:18>> Uh, depends.
1:05:21>> I know. I know.
1:05:21>> What does it depend on?
1:05:22>> I know trans men that can get pregnant.
1:05:24>> That that means it's a woman. Only one
1:05:26sex.
1:05:26>> That's a circular argument. That's
1:05:28>> a argument. It's proving my thing. There
1:05:29is a truth, a concrete truth. You have
1:05:31to be born with a uterus to have a baby.
1:05:34Only women can get pregnant. The fact
1:05:35that we've arrived in a society,
1:05:37>> that's the part I'm disagreeing with.
1:05:38That's the part I'm disagreeing with.
1:05:38There's nothing to disagree with it.
1:05:39These are facts. So you can say that
1:05:41this person who is pregnant identifies
1:05:42as a man. That person was born a woman.
1:05:44I can tell you that every single time
1:05:46because only women can have sex because
1:05:47there are concrete truths about life
1:05:50that I mean can have babies. Pardon? And
1:05:52that that is a hard truth about life.
1:05:54You cannot make that go away because you
1:05:55want to call a man somebody who has a
1:05:57beard and dresses like a dude woman.
1:05:58Only if it's pregnant. I can tell you
1:06:00exactly what it is. It's a woman.
1:06:01>> So So I I I'll give you let's go back to
1:06:03the social construct thing because then
1:06:04that'll it'll answer the thing you just
1:06:05said. I'm not ignoring what you just
1:06:06said. I want to tie it together. So the
1:06:08the idea of my point was that a social
1:06:11construct doesn't ignore physical
1:06:14realities, right? Um social the social
1:06:17construct is about how we as a society
1:06:19make sense of those physical realities,
1:06:21right? So for example, um you said we're
1:06:24black. Sure. Right. Um I'm trying to
1:06:27think of you pick a light-skinned black
1:06:29person, right? They're black, right?
1:06:31We'd agree on that.
1:06:32>> Now let's go to the Dominican Republic.
1:06:34>> Let's go to PR. Let's go to Puerto Rico.
1:06:36Let's go to Jordan, let's go to Iraq,
1:06:39let's go to Sudan, let's go to Ghana.
1:06:41Right? And each of the and let's go to
1:06:42South Africa. I'm picking these places
1:06:43very specifically because they have
1:06:44different racial logics and racial
1:06:46paradigms and what it means to be black
1:06:47here, it doesn't necessarily mean that
1:06:49it's a universal blackness, right? That
1:06:51that that if in in Dominican there might
1:06:53be five different other racial
1:06:54categories, right? And there there are
1:06:56some light-skinned black folk here who
1:06:57when they go to Ghana get basically seen
1:07:00as white, right? Because of how we
1:07:02socially construct it. Doesn't mean my
1:07:03biology changed. doesn't mean my
1:07:05physical reality changed but how society
1:07:07engages this stuff is what makes it a
1:07:09social construct. So similarly uh when
1:07:12it comes so so I'm not ignoring the
1:07:14realities of racis so so with race and
1:07:16racism in America and then I'm going to
1:07:18take it back to the gender thing when it
1:07:19comes to race and racism in America it's
1:07:21yes biologically we're all the same
1:07:24right black people white people there's
1:07:25an infinite decimal difference between a
1:07:27black person and a white person in terms
1:07:28of our genetics right this is
1:07:30superficial stuff but I that doesn't
1:07:32that that's a biological reality right
1:07:34it's a biological fact right um just
1:07:36like as biologically true as me being
1:07:38born with a penis right Um, but the
1:07:41truth is, but the but the idea that
1:07:43there's social meanings attached to that
1:07:44blackness that make people fear me or
1:07:46that make people think that the this
1:07:48person that person's life is worth more
1:07:50because they're white or whatever, those
1:07:51are social meanings that are arbitrary
1:07:53and different. So, so to to acknowledge
1:07:55social constructs doesn't mean you
1:07:56ignore biological realities.
1:07:58>> But you just did that when you said that
1:07:59men could give birth.
1:08:00>> So, so similarly, what I'm saying is is
1:08:03that I'm not denying the biological
1:08:04reality of maleness of of the genitalia
1:08:06we're assigned at birth and what we can
1:08:08do with those body parts. I'm not
1:08:09denying that. That's a biological
1:08:11reality. Again, the social meaning I'm
1:08:13attaching to it is what I'm saying is
1:08:15more complicated.
1:08:16>> But it's not complicated. Can men give
1:08:19birth?
1:08:21>> Sometimes. That's my answer. Yes.
1:08:22>> And the answer that is that is crazy.
1:08:24And this is we we cannot it's just
1:08:26crazy. We cannot allow this to happen.
1:08:28>> But you wouldn't say the definition of
1:08:29being a woman is the ability to give
1:08:30birth.
1:08:30>> I'm not saying I'm only women can give
1:08:32birth is a factually true statement.
1:08:34Only women can give birth. There there's
1:08:36only one type of human being
1:08:37>> only with uteruses and vaginas.
1:08:40Only women can you I'm not disagreeing
1:08:42with that. I'm not and that here's what
1:08:44I think we're talking past each other.
1:08:45What I'm saying is I'm not disputing the
1:08:47fact that certain body parts yield
1:08:48certain kinds of possibilities. Right.
1:08:50What I'm disagreeing with is the idea
1:08:52that that is the measure of whether or
1:08:53not you're a man or a woman in in in
1:08:55society.
1:08:56>> Okay. But it is now come to a point
1:08:58where if you say that only women can
1:09:00give birth, you are called a bigot. That
1:09:02is crazy. That's nuts. If you say like
1:09:04JK Rowling did when she got cancelled by
1:09:06the Harry Potter cast that only women
1:09:08can menstruate. Okay. Can men get their
1:09:10period? Can you can can you help my
1:09:12audience? Can men get their period?
1:09:14>> Some can.
1:09:15>> Okay.
1:09:15>> Yeah. Trans men. Some there are some
1:09:17trans men who can. Um and again I I
1:09:20think it's okay to ask interesting
1:09:21questions. I think it's okay to have
1:09:23intellectual debates. But I I don't
1:09:25think that we ever want to enter a space
1:09:26where we deny the the re the humanity.
1:09:28And I'm not saying you are but to deny
1:09:29the humanity or the experiences of other
1:09:31people. I'm like I said I'm was totally
1:09:33okay with trans until it became a
1:09:35demand. You what you are denying is my
1:09:37ability to be an intelligent human
1:09:39being. Right? You're denying you're
1:09:41denying my ability to talk about science
1:09:43and biology in a meaningful way. You are
1:09:45now making your existence is actually
1:09:47infringing on mine. Okay? And because
1:09:49when you make it a requirement now that
1:09:51I have to pretend that men can give
1:09:53birth and men can menstruate and there
1:09:54needs to be tampons as the ACLU is
1:09:56fighting for and males and male
1:09:58restrooms. that if I don't see the
1:09:59reason, the importance of that, then I'm
1:10:00a bigot. I'm someone that doesn't
1:10:01accept. No, no, no. I accept you. If you
1:10:03want to run around and you want to wear
1:10:04a dress and you want to call yourself
1:10:06Tiffany and you want to put a pillow,
1:10:08you if you want I I I don't need to know
1:10:11your name. It doesn't mean it doesn't
1:10:12mean anything to me. You want to call
1:10:13I'm not going to sit here and say, "I
1:10:14don't believe your name is Tiffany." You
1:10:15know, if person comes up to me and
1:10:16they're in a dress and a skirt and they
1:10:18say, "My name's Tiffany." Okay, cool.
1:10:19Tiffany, cool. Right. But when it
1:10:21becomes Candace is a bigot because she
1:10:23won't acknowledge that, you know,
1:10:24Tiffany Tiffany the man got her period
1:10:27and and can have a baby. I'm not playing
1:10:29that game. We I am I will never
1:10:31>> tomorrow I'll come on your show tomorrow
1:10:32and I I have decided uh that or a year
1:10:35from now uh suddenly I have I I I have
1:10:38reimagined my identity and I have I have
1:10:40I have recognized and affirmed my
1:10:42identity as as a trans woman and I no
1:10:44longer want to identify as Mark. I want
1:10:46to identify as to use your example as
1:10:48Tiffany. You you wouldn't be like this
1:10:50book says mark your mark. You you'd call
1:10:51me Tiffany.
1:10:52>> I'd call you Tiffany, but I'm not going
1:10:53to call you she and her because that has
1:10:55real meaning and I'm not going to play
1:10:56the game.
1:10:57>> What's compromised by that is what I'm
1:10:58trying to understand.
1:10:59>> My my my reality. You're now saying
1:11:01you've transformed your reality and now
1:11:02I have to pretend that words have no
1:11:04meanings and they do have meanings.
1:11:05Right? So I'm not going to do that. I'm
1:11:07not going to call you. Hi Tiff. How you
1:11:09doing Tiff? Did you have a good day
1:11:10Tiff? Great Tiff. I'm not going to then
1:11:12say she she. I'm not doing that. And if
1:11:14people cannot if people the demand
1:11:16>> won't misgender me either.
1:11:17>> What? I'll just call you Tiffany.
1:11:19>> But and if they say where Tiffany go,
1:11:20you're not gonna be like, "He just
1:11:21left." You'll say, "She just left."
1:11:22>> I'll probably slip up a you know, once
1:11:24or twice. But
1:11:24>> I'm not talking about mistakes, but I'm
1:11:25saying you wouldn't intentionally
1:11:26misgender me.
1:11:27>> No, I wouldn't intentionally misgender
1:11:28you, but I don't want I don't want
1:11:28Tiffany in my bathroom. I don't want
1:11:30Tiffany tampons in the other bathroom.
1:11:32That's what I don't get.
1:11:33>> No, I don't care. I don't care. I think
1:11:34it's stupid. I think it's foolish. I
1:11:36think it's dumb. But if you if that's
1:11:37really where guys want to go, do it. I
1:11:38don't care. It's not my business.
1:11:39Doesn't impact me. I don't have to go in
1:11:40the bathroom. But I don't want Tiffany
1:11:41in my bathroom.
1:11:42>> And you are Are you okay with gender
1:11:43neutral bathrooms?
1:11:44>> That's how most bathrooms are. They just
1:11:45That's all I go on the plane. They're
1:11:47all gender neutral.
1:11:47>> No, I got you. But I'm saying bathroom.
1:11:49Bathroom. Fine.
1:11:49>> But I'm saying designating a specific
1:11:51one like in public spaces like like
1:11:52restaurants.
1:11:52>> Yeah. I hate that they say gender
1:11:54neutral because usually they just say
1:11:56bathroom. Like you don't they don't need
1:11:57to say gender neutral. It just says
1:11:58bathroom. And we all understood that.
1:11:59That just seems to be an extra step of
1:12:00virtue signaling to say gender neutral.
1:12:02You just put bathroom. Everyone knows
1:12:04what that means.
1:12:04>> No. But a lot of times in places like
1:12:05for example in our university, uh we
1:12:07have male bathrooms, we have female
1:12:09bathrooms, and then we have gender
1:12:10neutral bathroom.
1:12:10>> You can just put bathroom. Everyone
1:12:12knows what it means. You put WC,
1:12:14everyone knows what it means. It means
1:12:15anybody can go here. That's always been
1:12:16that way since the beginning of time.
1:12:17And then suddenly the trans lobby wanted
1:12:19to say gender neutral and suddenly we
1:12:20had to put gender neutral on.
1:12:21>> That's so fascinating. I find it
1:12:22actually to be the right in this case.
1:12:23And I'm not
1:12:24>> planes. Do they say gender neutral?
1:12:26Bathroom.
1:12:27>> I'm with you. I mean, grandom's house.
1:12:28Yeah.
1:12:28>> Thanksgiving, right? I mean, no one
1:12:29called it. I'm with you. But I often
1:12:31find that it's the it's it's the it's
1:12:33the anti-trans community that's like,
1:12:36"Oh my god, a gender neutral bathroom.
1:12:39God made bathroom for man, ba bathroom
1:12:40for woman." I'm like, "What are you
1:12:41talking about?"
1:12:42>> No, they've always been just bathrooms.
1:12:43Usually at small places, just bathrooms.
1:12:45It's fine. But like it's the I can't
1:12:46stand the you know preamble of the
1:12:48constitution. Any person can go here. We
1:12:50don't care whether you just shut up. I
1:12:51think I think that's a good thing. I
1:12:52think that's annoying. It's just the
1:12:53constant virtually shut up.
1:12:55>> It's about affirming people's identity.
1:12:57>> You don't need your identity affirmed on
1:12:59a bathroom sign if you need that.
1:13:00>> You do if you've been denied access.
1:13:02>> It just says bathroom.
1:13:03>> Privilege. Just privilege.
1:13:04>> That's cisgender privilege. It really
1:13:06is.
1:13:06>> Oh god. Stop with these madeup terms.
1:13:09Cisgender privilege. It's just a
1:13:11bathroom.
1:13:12>> All words are made up. I mean it's just
1:13:14a bathroom word.
1:13:16>> No, what I'm saying is if you've been
1:13:18again, if you've been constantly denied
1:13:19access to something, affirming that you
1:13:21can come here matters because there I
1:13:23mean there's a long history of trans
1:13:24>> just right bathroom,
1:13:25>> right? And I'm saying just right
1:13:26bathroom historically has still excluded
1:13:29people who are who are who are visibly
1:13:31gender non-conforming. They have when
1:13:33you if you go throughout history, you
1:13:35know how many people are kicked out of
1:13:35restaurants, not even allowed to sit in
1:13:36the restaurant, much less use the
1:13:38bathroom because their their gender
1:13:39doesn't seem to line up with what we
1:13:41society's expectations. And so saying
1:13:42you can come here too is a sign of
1:13:44saying we welcome you. It's just like
1:13:46saying just like when you see like um an
1:13:47ally an ally sign or or or a um or or or
1:13:51a rainbow flag on a restaurant. It's not
1:13:53saying that anyone who doesn't have one
1:13:54means gay people can't come in. But the
1:13:55point is because places have been so
1:13:57hostile affirming that you can come in.
1:13:59>> Nothing annoys me more than that crop. I
1:14:00mean I I tell you nothing annoy annoys
1:14:02me more than seeing that crop everywhere
1:14:04all the time. It's just you know you got
1:14:06to have the Black Lives Matter flag, the
1:14:07LGBT flag, the the this sign, this sign.
1:14:09It's like, dude, since when are people
1:14:11not allowed to just buy furniture? I
1:14:12don't need you to have 18 different
1:14:13signs. Like, I just want to walk into
1:14:14the furniture store. Is it not
1:14:16>> Would you be okay if there were American
1:14:17flag? Would you be mad at American flag?
1:14:18>> Can you help me? When were gay people in
1:14:20America not allowed to buy furniture?
1:14:21You're going to have to help me out with
1:14:22that.
1:14:23>> It's not specific to furniture, but gay
1:14:25people
1:14:25>> I'm saying like it's every store now.
1:14:27It's every store. They had to put a
1:14:28flag.
1:14:28>> There's a historical narative.
1:14:29>> When were gay people not allowed to go
1:14:31go into McDonald's
1:14:33>> as as long as there have been McDonald's
1:14:35and public and this isn't specific to
1:14:36McDonald's. I'm saying that in terms of
1:14:38public accommodations, people who who
1:14:39identify as gender non-conforming.
1:14:42>> We we can talk about we can talk about
1:14:43gay, lesbian, bisexual, but I'm talking
1:14:44specifically right now about trans folk.
1:14:46Um, yes, they're often denied access to
1:14:48public spaces like restaurants, like
1:14:50furniture stores, like like hospitals,
1:14:52etc. And part of the reason, and again,
1:14:54there's plenty of that on this, is that
1:14:55when they're in public space, they're
1:14:56often criminalized. They're often seen
1:14:57as sex workers are often seen as doing
1:14:58something illicit, even if they're just
1:15:00walking down the street. So when you the
1:15:01reason you see an over representation of
1:15:02trans women for example uh being being
1:15:04stopped and and searched and frisked or
1:15:06or apprehended or questioned even when
1:15:07they've done nothing or presumed to be
1:15:09doing sex work just because they're on a
1:15:10corner like literally they could be
1:15:11crossing the street is because there's
1:15:13an expectation of who and what they are
1:15:14a social construct. And so yes to say
1:15:17look you can come here we want you here.
1:15:19We won't be judged here. This is a safe
1:15:20haven here is entirely reasonable. if I
1:15:23had a university to use your your your
1:15:25your argument earlier um and I want to I
1:15:28I think it's okay for a university on
1:15:30the website to say hey we we value
1:15:32diversity of opinion we want
1:15:33conservatives too right now you might
1:15:35say well why do I need to say that
1:15:37conservatives are should be allowed
1:15:38anywhere but you would say conservatives
1:15:40are universities are hostile spaces to
1:15:41to conservatives so if I wanted to
1:15:43signal to conservatives that they were
1:15:44welcome here too I would have to go
1:15:46above and beyond to say that because
1:15:47they're not they're typically not and so
1:15:49I would by your argument and so I'm
1:15:51saying similarly if a place is denying
1:15:52access historically a country to to
1:15:54queer folk or to trans folk, then I'm
1:15:56saying, "Yeah, we got to do something
1:15:57extra to say that."
1:15:58>> Maybe we should come up with a flag for
1:16:00conservative people. I like
1:16:01>> I think it's red, white, and blue. It
1:16:02has like 50 stars.
1:16:04>> Oh, just America. That's it. We'll take
1:16:07it. Everyone start putting American flag
1:16:09so we know that it's Confederate one.
1:16:11Maybe it's the Confederate one. I don't
1:16:12know.
1:16:12>> I mean I mean whatever. Um I will wrap
1:16:16this by saying I think this was a very
1:16:18important discussion and yeah I I think
1:16:20it's there needs to be more of this. We
1:16:22don't have to agree. Um, but we cannot
1:16:24be scared to have the conversation.
1:16:26People benefit from seeing different
1:16:27perspectives in the black community. We
1:16:28are not all a monolith. I disagree with
1:16:31Mark on virtually everything he has said
1:16:33here. Um, but I
1:16:34>> don't know what that does for me and my
1:16:35fan. Thank you.
1:16:37>> Well, I will defend his right to say it
1:16:39um to the death of me. I think we we
1:16:41need more diversity of thought and more
1:16:43diversity of opinion and I deeply
1:16:44respect you for coming on to the show
1:16:45and saying what you believe on and
1:16:47sticking by.
1:16:47>> Thank you for inviting me. Everybody
1:16:48should buy this book. It's called No
1:16:50Body: Casualties of America's World.
1:16:52>> Well, first you're going to get two
1:16:53minutes where you actually can pitch
1:16:54whatever you want. So, yeah, we're going
1:16:55to give we wrap up every episode by
1:16:56allowing you to look into the camera.
1:16:58>> Oh, wow.
1:16:58>> And you can say what we kind of say is
1:17:00encouraging you like if you wish that
1:17:01your one message could fall upon the
1:17:03ears of every person in America. Um,
1:17:05what would it be sort of a thing, right?
1:17:07>> Cool.
1:17:08>> So, are you ready?
1:17:09>> I'm ready.
1:17:09>> On your mark, get set, world, I give you
1:17:12Mark Lamont Hill.
1:17:13>> Wow, this is I didn't expect this. I'm
1:17:15so nervous. Um, first of all, we're in a
1:17:19desperate and and trying time. It's more
1:17:21important than this book. Um, and right
1:17:25now we need radical imagination. We need
1:17:28to not be prisoner to the moment we're
1:17:29in. Um, we don't need easy solutions. We
1:17:32don't need simply simple solutions. We
1:17:34need to suspend all of our disbelief and
1:17:37invest in each other, believe in each
1:17:38other, and figure out new, more amazing
1:17:41and ambitious dreams than we've ever had
1:17:43before. It's the only way we can get out
1:17:44of this this this moment of darkness, of
1:17:46violence, of pain, of inequality, of
1:17:48injustice, of deep harm. Uh, we can't
1:17:51run from history. We can't escape
1:17:52history. Um, but we can wrestle with it
1:17:54and we can ultimately not be prisoner to
1:17:56it. And I'm proud of what's happening in
1:17:58the on the streets. I'm proud of what's
1:18:00happening around the world and I'm proud
1:18:01to be engaged in dialogue um that gets
1:18:03us there. I I don't like to plug stuff,
1:18:05but I I do think at this moment um this
1:18:08book is actually useful. It's called
1:18:09Nobody. Uh, casualties of America's war
1:18:11on the vulnerable from Ferguson to Flint
1:18:13and Beyond. I wrote this uh I wrote this
1:18:16uh six years ago. Uh it came out four
1:18:19years ago to talk about Flint in
1:18:21Baltimore and Ferguson and all these
1:18:23things. I didn't want to just talk about
1:18:24what it meant to be killed by police or
1:18:25what it meant to have lead in your
1:18:27water. I wanted to talk about the
1:18:28historical processes that got us there.
1:18:30I wanted to talk about uh the conditions
1:18:32underneath that keep us there. But I
1:18:34also wanted to leave with a sense of
1:18:36hope that again we don't have to be
1:18:38prisoners to this moment. But we don't
1:18:39have to be uh what we once were. That
1:18:41the world can be different and better
1:18:42and more fair and more just and more
1:18:44free uh than we could even imagine. And
1:18:46I believe that all of us together can
1:18:48make that happen.
1:18:49>> That was great. Thought you were ready
1:18:50for that. Look at that. In 20 seconds
1:18:52left. That was awesome. Oh wow.
1:18:53>> Yeah. That's a wrap.

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