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💥 Man Swallowed By Whale: Did It Really Happen To Michael Packard? — Transcript

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0:00I think it was his jaws kind of crushing
0:02my legs. Instinctively, I knew it was a
0:05whale.
0:06I get the shivers right now.
0:09What would you say to all those people
0:11around the world who might doubt your
0:13story then? I don't know.
0:30All right, ready?
0:31Yeah.
0:32Yep, ready. All right, here we go.
0:34I'm Scott Rouse. I'm a body language
0:36expert and analyst, and I train law
0:37enforcement, and the military in
0:39interrogation and body language. And I
0:41created the number one online body
0:42language course,
0:44uh body language tactics with Greg
0:45Hartley. Mark?
0:47I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human
0:49behavior and body language. I help
0:50people all over the world to stand out,
0:52win trust, and gain credibility every
0:54time they communicate, including some of
0:56the leaders of the G7. Chase?
0:59Hey, I'm Chase Hughes today. 20 years US
1:00military, an expert in human behavior,
1:03interrogation, behavior profiling, and
1:05influence.
1:06And I've written a few books on the
1:08same, couple of bestsellers, and now I
1:10train the general public in those
1:11topics. Greg?
1:13Greg Hartley, I'm a former Army
1:14interrogator, interrogation instructor,
1:16resistance to interrogation instructor.
1:18I've written 10 books on body language
1:19and behavior. Put together this body
1:21language tactics at
1:22bodylanguagetactics.com course with
1:24Scott, and I spend most of my time on
1:26Wall Street in corporate America.
1:28All right, well today we're going to
1:29talk about and I'm sure everybody's
1:31heard about the guy who says he's been
1:32swallowed by a whale and then lived to
1:34tell the story. So, that's what we
1:36that's who we're going to talk about
1:37today. Greg found the video and Greg
1:40tell us about what we what we're going
1:41to be looking at. Yes, so we have two
1:43videos. Number one, we're going to see
1:45him tell his story about being swallowed
1:47by a whale. And it's Australian 60
1:50Minutes, they're asking questions. We
1:51get pretty good video and lots of
1:53lots of him telling you the story. Now,
1:55the better part of this is he also was
1:57in a plane crash in Costa Rica in 2001,
2:00which is verified, and we get to hear
2:03him tell his story about the Costa Rican
2:06plane crash, and you get to see what
2:08baseline really is, and then we'll look
2:10at him.
2:11Yeah. All right, well if you like what
2:13we're doing, please subscribe and hit
2:14the like button.
2:16And uh let's move along to the first
2:18video.
2:19The next thing that I remember is that I
2:22woke up on my back
2:24looking up at the sky
2:26and
2:27the trees.
2:30And I thought to myself, "Oh my god, I
2:34was just in a plane crash,
2:37and I'm alive."
2:39I remember just thinking
2:41about where I was,
2:44about where the plane was,
2:47because I didn't see anything around me
2:49except for trees.
2:53I'm just happy there was somebody else
2:55to go through that with,
3:00cuz I knew it was going to be tough.
3:03I started thinking, "Oh my god, I'm
3:06going to make it out of here." And I was
3:08amazed by him
3:11trying to console me
3:13even through
3:15all his pain. My chest and was just in
3:18so much pain, I couldn't breathe. I knew
3:20it was going to be a
3:22probably the longest night of my life,
3:25and I wasn't looking forward to it.
3:28They wouldn't let me sleep,
3:30and kept
3:31yelling to me, "Michael, are you there?
3:33You awake? Michael, Michael." all night
3:36long.
3:37And I was getting almost mad. Just leave
3:39me alone. Just let me sleep.
3:41I was incapable of taking care of
3:43myself, and Alvaro was also incapable of
3:45taking care of himself.
3:47It was miserable.
3:50But I could
3:51only last
3:53so long in this condition. I just
3:57started crying, and it was the most
4:00emotional period.
4:03I couldn't couldn't believe it. Well,
4:05let's go around the room. Let's talk
4:06about what we saw in his baseline, and
4:08then we'll move on to the
4:10story about the whale. So, Mark, you
4:12want to go first?
4:14Yeah, okay.
4:16so, couple of phrases there that we'll
4:17hear later on in the other videos, "Oh
4:21my god, and I'm alive." So, those get
4:23repeated in the other story. So, we can
4:26either take that as a as a baseline, or
4:28we can listen out for for that, or we
4:32can also go, well well, these calling up
4:35a god is a phrase that he uses when
4:38something has actually happened. Okay,
4:41so let's keep that in mind. Um we saw
4:44there what what some of his emotions
4:48look like, what that kind of desperation
4:52or complete loss, that idea of being
4:54completely trapped, no way out. We got a
4:57sense of what that looks like. We saw
5:00chin boss movement there. We saw where
5:02the eyes go to. So, let's look out for
5:06that later on. As a generality, what I'm
5:09hearing is is a lot of downward
5:11intonation. Um a lot of fry in the
5:14voice. So, under energized downward
5:16intonation,
5:18um almost what I would say is a
5:20depressive
5:21tone. So, again, let's look out for
5:24whether we get that type of tonality in
5:28this other story that we get, which is
5:30similar in that it's a life it's a it's
5:33a brush with death, shall we say? You
5:36know, so here we've got a baseline for a
5:38brush with death that is verified to
5:42have to have happened. It's been
5:44corroborated. It's it's factual in that
5:46there are more than three other people
5:48who can kind of go, yeah, we have
5:50evidence that that it that it happened.
5:52And
5:54and then we've got another brush with
5:55death story, which is less verifiable,
5:58no photographic evidence. There is
6:01another person who said they saw some of
6:03the
6:04aftermath of it, but they weren't at the
6:07actual event. So, there there's a a
6:10quick overview for you on that one.
6:12Greg, what do you got?
6:14Yeah, so what we know is he's telling
6:16the truth. He's a bit of a storyteller.
6:17He's a little bit of a punctuator with,
6:19you know, all that chin boss and all
6:20that. That's real emotion typically when
6:22somebody does a chin boss, and Chase
6:24you'll cover that in detail, I'm sure.
6:25He punctuates with his brows when he's
6:27talking. When he's making eye contact,
6:29he raises his brow a bit to punctuate.
6:31That's not the same as, "Hey, you
6:32believe me, don't you?" And you don't
6:34see a whole lot of, "Hey, you believe
6:35me, don't you?" in this story. He's
6:37telling the story. He's halting. It's
6:39his style. His blink rate is higher than
6:41a normal person's blink rate, but this
6:44is normal for him, whatever it is. Now,
6:46that could also be because, you know,
6:47he's feeling emotion. He's wanting to
6:49tell the story, and he's wanting to put
6:50as much of him into it as he possibly
6:51can. I think he likes to tell stories,
6:53and I think
6:54this is a big one. I mean, this doesn't
6:56happen to everybody in their life to
6:57survive a plane crash, and he was
6:59injured pretty badly. Um when he does,
7:01"My chest was in so much pain, I
7:02couldn't breathe." he illustrates with
7:04his left hand, and his eyes access to
7:06the left. He does his brows up a little
7:09bit when he's when he's asking you to to
7:12understand what he's saying. And that's
7:14about it. I won't go any further than
7:15that, but he punctuates his emotion.
7:17He's moving his hands. He's moving his
7:19face, and he's telling his story. Um
7:21Chase, what do you got?
7:23I agree with you guys, and
7:26what we see here is him being still.
7:29There's not a lot of body animation or
7:31body narration. He's not selling the
7:34story with his body.
7:36He's making solid eye contact with the
7:38interviewer.
7:39There is a lack of eye flutter. So, when
7:43he blinks, he blinks. It's not a a
7:45consistent flutter here.
7:47The chin boss and the tears is
7:50indicative of grief, some kind of even
7:52if we're recalling grief, our faces are
7:54likely to do that.
7:56There's even a really cool study in in
7:58New York
7:59that New Yorkers
8:01rarely speak to each other, especially
8:02strangers.
8:04Uh it's a lot like Sweden, but
8:07after 9/11 happened, these body language
8:10experts noticed that New Yorkers were
8:12exchanging tight-lipped expressions
8:14towards each other,
8:16which we would typically look at as
8:19withheld opinions. And later on in a in
8:22a recent body language research, this
8:24tight-lipped uh exchange between people
8:28also involving this little chin boss
8:30muscle here
8:31was uh also given a second name as a
8:34shared grief expression.
8:37I think that's pretty interesting just
8:39as a quick tidbit there.
8:41He's saying, "I remember."
8:43There's not a lot of use of "and then."
8:46There's not a an overuse of the word
8:48"and" here. I want you to pay attention
8:50to that in the videos coming up. He's
8:52not using "and then." There's not a lot
8:54of "and." And even when he's looking
8:56away for recall, you know, he's looking
9:00away to process a piece of the story. In
9:02the middle of that, he's still checking
9:04back in with the interviewer. There's
9:05still little check-ins in between this.
9:08He's a social person. He's a good
9:10storyteller, so he's
9:11recalling all this data and pulling the
9:13person back in with eye contact. He
9:15knows exactly how to do this. Very
9:17socially intelligent guy. So, that's
9:19what we're seeing here in a provable,
9:21truthful video.
9:24Uh Scott?
9:24All right. All right, now
9:27I agree with all you guys. We're seeing
9:28no illustrators. We don't see any hand
9:30movement. We don't see a very
9:33not very deviating from this gaze he's
9:36got with it when he's telling the story.
9:38He's it's a fixed gaze. He's telling
9:40However, his eye flutter does happen in
9:42some spots where it gets where he where
9:44he talks about some things that happened
9:45that were that were scary, or when he
9:48talks about pain, he gets those going.
9:49And it's And throughout that, it's it's
9:52almost common. So, I'm going to as we go
9:54forward, I'm going to look at that as
9:55something
9:56that's normal for his baseline in most
9:58every situation.
10:00Um so I say he's got a fixed gaze. He's
10:02very calm and and there's not there's
10:05not a whole lot of animation whatsoever
10:07in this. And he's talking very low.
10:09We're talking about two completely
10:10different situations here. We're talking
10:12about where somebody got killed in the
10:14first one. In the second one, he's he's
10:17not even talking to a person. He's
10:18talking to a camera
10:19uh over the internet. Whether there's
10:21somebody sitting there he's talking to
10:23or not, I thought about that. I thought
10:24maybe there's the person sitting there.
10:25He "Pretend you're talking to him as
10:27you're talking to me."
10:28Maybe that's what's happening. I don't
10:30know. But but because it looked like a
10:32person, but I'm under the impression
10:33he's talking to a computer.
10:35And so we're looking at two completely
10:36different situations there for the guy
10:39asking questions and with him answering
10:41the questions going back and forth. So
10:44big difference in his in his baseline
10:46and what we're getting ready to see, I
10:47believe. And then we'll look at this
10:49video we just saw again at the very end
10:51so you can again
10:52uh make that comparison and for yourself
10:55and see what's happening there.
10:56All right, you guys ready to look at the
10:57first video? Yeah. Great point from that
11:00uh distance.
11:01Oh, thanks.
11:02And I was on my third dive and almost
11:05got to the bottom and I just got hit
11:08by just a freight train
11:11out of nowhere. Just got boom.
11:15And then everything went dark.
11:17And I'm moving through the water.
11:21And I'm like, "What the
11:23What Where am I? What happened?
11:27Did I get eaten by a shark?
11:29No, I can't feel any cuts.
11:32I I
11:33I don't think it's a shark.
11:35And instantly, I knew it was a whale.
11:39All right, Greg, what do you got?
11:41Yeah, so his blink rate is higher than
11:43it was in the other and there's more
11:44flutter. Chase, I agree with you.
11:45There's a lot more flutter than there
11:46was in the first one. We know that his
11:48blink rate high is fairly normal, but
11:50this is even more exaggerated. And then
11:52everything went down. And then I always
11:55when when I hear and then doesn't mean
11:57he's lying, just means there's some time
11:59missing in there. And there's nobody
12:01there to see it. As you said, Mark,
12:02there's somebody on the boat, but
12:03there's nobody there to actually see
12:04this. He has exaggerated movement and
12:07his eyes break down into his left. When
12:09he was recalling about the plane crash,
12:11his eyes were here. Now, there's lots of
12:13reasons your eyes could drop down left.
12:14How does a person perceive what you're
12:16saying and those kinds of There's a
12:17slight smile going on in his mouth as
12:19well as he's telling this story. And
12:21then he does that pulling taffy eye
12:22movement. You're with me, right? You're
12:25with me. You're with me. Trying to make
12:26sure you're still following.
12:29Tongue jets out.
12:30And then he does
12:32right after he tells the story, his lips
12:34go tight right after the tongue jet, and
12:36his forehead goes up in request for
12:38approval and holes and clamps.
12:40This feels like a the fish might
12:42Something may have happened with the
12:44whale. This might be a big fish story.
12:47That's where I'll leave that. Um Scott,
12:49what do you got? All right. Um
12:52You don't tell
12:54traumatic stories, horror stories that
12:57are adrenaline-filled like this. You
12:59don't remember that many details. This
13:01guy gets way too detailed on what
13:03happened. When something big happens and
13:05you get that shot of adrenaline and
13:07you're fighting for your life, you don't
13:09think about anything else about except
13:12fighting for your life. You don't We're
13:14going to see him go through this process
13:16of making decisions and and planning
13:18things out all while he's in the in the
13:20mouth of this supposedly of a whale.
13:23This You don't tell stories that way.
13:24That's not the way he says it. So I'm
13:25going to focus more on the way he he
13:27presents the story than on body language
13:29mostly in this, so that's the road I'm
13:30going to be going down.
13:32He's not You're not supposed to be
13:33thinking about the little things, just
13:34says your brain and your limbic system
13:37as these things happen.
13:39He does this tongue thing, but I think
13:41the tongue thing isn't because he's
13:42sorry he's saying that or afraid or
13:44something. He's he's fighting for time
13:46there. He's looking He's doing these
13:48things because his brain is still making
13:50up parts of the story. Some of the
13:51things we're going to hear I've I heard
13:52him tell this this a similar story about
13:55this in another interview. And it's not
13:57the same as this as this one. He says he
13:59has a couple of things. We'll get to
14:00that in a little while. Um
14:02When he say when he when he's in the
14:04shark or in the in the whale, he's he's
14:07saying out loud to or say Who's he
14:09talking to when he's saying, "I don't
14:11feel any cuts. I don't feel any pain.
14:14It's not a shark."
14:16Nobody does that. Nobody does that.
14:18Nobody. You would just be freaking out
14:21going, "I got to get out of this thing."
14:22And it might dawn on you that it's a
14:24whale. This must be a whale. And then he
14:26talks about the his legs getting
14:28crushed. I think that's what's happening
14:29in this one.
14:30Um
14:31We'll get to that in a second. Um
14:33Because what you're saying is you
14:35wouldn't be saying, "Oh, I wonder if
14:36this is you know, is this a shark?"
14:37You're going to be yelling, "Oh, no. Oh
14:39God, please. No, no. Oh God, please.
14:41Please. No, God, please." You'll be
14:42talking to God at that point. Whether
14:44you believe in God or not, that's who
14:45you're going to be That's who you're
14:46going to be having conversation with. So
14:50right at right at the beginning
14:52from this thing it sounds like it it
14:54sounds just like a bunch of
14:56Too many too many
14:58um too much verbal bridging. He says
15:00just three times in this. And we're
15:02going to see the word and used and then
15:04this happened and then and then he says
15:06and all of a sudden
15:08a lot, too. So I just just right out of
15:10the gate this sounds like
15:12it's not true to me, but I I guess I
15:15shouldn't say that part now. Anyway,
15:16Chase, what do you got?
15:19Yeah, I I agree with you guys and
15:22let's talk about eye accessing cues
15:24really briefly. They're not definitive.
15:27They're very reliable.
15:29And they're even more reliable the more
15:32times you're able to establish a
15:34pattern.
15:35I
15:36first learned this and was using it in a
15:40social capacity in a interview.
15:43And I asked somebody about their
15:44backyard of their home. And I said, "I
15:47want you to describe the backyard of
15:48that home." It was the home they grew up
15:50in. It's a 19-year-old person.
15:53And I was expecting to see some visual
15:55recall, which in the eye accessing
15:57bible, whatever that is, is moving
16:00upward because we're accessing the
16:02occipital lobe, which is in the back of
16:03our head.
16:04But I see emotional stuff going on. I
16:06see downward movement in the eyes.
16:09And then later on after the interview, I
16:11asked like, "What was it What were you
16:13thinking of in the backyard?" And he
16:14said,
16:15"Oh, the first thing I thought of is how
16:17my dad passed away a month ago. He and I
16:19used to play baseball back there. We
16:21used to play and throw the ball back and
16:23forth. And that was That was the first
16:24thing I thought of."
16:26So we can't always rely on it, but we
16:28can rely on patterns. So what we're
16:31looking for here are patterns of eye
16:33movement. And uh to Scott's point, uh
16:36when you're talking about him using and,
16:38I counted.
16:39Okay.
16:41Using and, which is an average of every
16:434.2 seconds
16:46in this clip. And he says and then
16:49twice, which is a a time bridge or or
16:52hiding time
16:53uh indicator. And when he says, "I
16:56instantly knew it it was a whale."
16:58There's a shake of the head. There's lip
17:00licking, a shoulder shrug followed by
17:02lip compression. Those are all
17:04indicators or things that suggest uh
17:07that there's some deception going on.
17:10The rapid eye blink here, I want you to
17:12look for this.
17:14When he's saying the word impact,
17:16it was up to 91 blinks per minute. And
17:20please keep in mind the average is
17:21around 16, give or take.
17:24And he shifts from past tense to
17:27discussing a story in past tense to
17:29present tense two times in this one
17:32clip. He's going past to present, which
17:35is very indicative of a story that is
17:39either fabricated or added onto. We can
17:42We can see both of those in both
17:44situations. Mark?
17:45Yeah, so So I think just to fill in some
17:48of the ideas around what is set up is as
17:51as as Scott was hinting to that.
17:54I think seeing the lighting, I think
17:56there are other people there cuz
17:57somebody else has had to set up that cam
17:59a really good camera and some really
18:01good lighting. So I'm just going to
18:02suppose that there is a crew there with
18:05him and he probably does have somebody
18:07off camera who's feeding him the
18:09questions. The interviewer
18:11isn't there. My understanding would be
18:12they're not there at the time and and
18:15they've connected them later on via the
18:18idea of of watching a live computer
18:21feed. I don't think it's live at all. I
18:24think because of that we get some
18:27uncertainty at one point about where
18:30this interviewee is meant to be looking.
18:33We get them slightly looking at the
18:34camera, slightly going past the camera.
18:37I would put one of the tongue elements
18:40there to him being unsure at that point
18:44where to look and probably realizing
18:47just look down the camera. Shouldn't
18:48have done that. I think there's just a
18:49little bit of uncertainty at the at the
18:52start here nonverbally which I'm I'm not
18:55going to put to him being deceitful or
18:59making up a story here. Now, let's
19:00actually look at the uh Oh, by the way,
19:03yes, um a baseline. Uh this is way more
19:07excited than the first story. Way more
19:10energetic, way more excited um
19:13than than the first brush with death.
19:15Now,
19:16uh
19:17This is one of the classic stories, the
19:18belly of the whale, eaten bit by the big
19:20fish. This goes right back to Jonah and
19:22the whale. Pinocchio, masterpiece of
19:25animation, uh has the father in the
19:27belly of a whale. Uh the idea of being
19:29eaten by an animal and being pulled out,
19:33especially by your son, uh is a is a
19:35classic example of a rebirth story. It's
19:38an archetype. Essentially, what we're
19:40going to see that here is how he tells
19:42this archetypal story. Um And and the
19:46reason I want to tell you this is that
19:48it's going to be incredibly seductive.
19:51Elements of this archetypal story are
19:53told really well.
19:55Elements aren't told that well and they
19:57don't really play out as they could. And
20:00that can help lead us to an
20:02understanding of how true might this
20:04story be because there are some resonant
20:08themes that come up in this that you'd
20:09see in every belly of a whale story.
20:12Uh just as you'd see them in every I got
20:15abducted by aliens story. If you if you
20:17even if you'd never heard one of those
20:20stories before,
20:21there's some certain themes that are
20:23kind of come out. You're going to get
20:24darkness. You're going to get depth.
20:26You're going to get an abyss. You're
20:28going to get light. You're going to get
20:29air. You're going to get the sky. You're
20:31going to be hot held tight by something.
20:33Uh your your clothes are going to
20:35disappear or you're going to have lose
20:37your hair. You're going to lose
20:38something. You're going to come back in
20:40the end and you're going to come back
20:41different. That's what we call the
20:43journey and return. So, I want to look
20:45at how well he follows that story. Let's
20:47go into this first part here.
20:49It was the third dive. Now, this is a
20:51brilliant start to a story because he
20:54instantly tells us he's been down twice
20:56already. He's diving for lobsters.
20:58Lobsters are precious. This is his third
21:01time going down into the abyss for
21:03something precious. It would be a bit
21:06boring like first time down. Fifth I've
21:08been down seven times. I've been down
21:0912. Three is really nice because you get
21:12it once, you get it again, and then you
21:14get a pattern interrupt, and then bang
21:17it comes out of nowhere. That is a
21:19classic of the whale story. It hits you
21:22out of nowhere. You never expect going
21:25into the abyss. You're never ready for
21:27it. So, um so he gets hit uh really
21:31quick. Oh, by the way, he got hit almost
21:33at the bottom. So, he's almost at at
21:36rock bottom. Surely he couldn't get any
21:38deeper. Well, he gets hit by a freight
21:41train. Odd metaphor to use for the the
21:45the whale. Anyway, I I'll I'll
21:48I'll discount that. But it comes out of
21:50nowhere and there's and now everything
21:53is in complete darkness and he's totally
21:57disorientated. That's brilliant
21:59storytelling.
22:01And so cuz he's taken us from the
22:04journey to something golden and precious
22:06of the lobster to now he's completely
22:09trapped and disorientated
22:11and in darkness. And he's done that
22:13really quickly. And the only reason I
22:15want to tell you that is that's very
22:16compelling. Whether it's whether it's
22:18true or false, it's incredibly
22:21compelling. And so we need to
22:23watch ourselves cuz maybe it's true.
22:26Maybe it's false. Let's see what
22:27happens. But our bias
22:30is going to be, I would say, towards
22:33wanting to believe this because it's
22:36such a beautiful idea as I'll hopefully
22:39flesh out for you.
22:41Uh beautiful archetypal storytelling
22:43there. There, that's all I got for you.
22:45And I was on my third dive and almost
22:48got to the bottom and I just got hit
22:51by just a freight train
22:54out of nowhere. Just got boom.
22:58And then everything went dark.
23:00And I'm moving through the water.
23:03And I'm like, what the
23:06What Where am I? What happened? Did I
23:10get eaten by a shark?
23:12No, I can't feel any cuts.
23:14I I I
23:16I don't think it's a shark.
23:18And then instantly, I knew it was a
23:19whale.
23:20Excellent. We good?
23:22Yeah, I'm good. Let's move along.
23:26Took me about 5 seconds to realize I was
23:28in that whale's mouth and
23:31and I went, holy
23:34I'm traveling through the water like
23:36fast. He he's like cruising through the
23:38water and water's just pouring in
23:40through his mouth and as soon as it
23:42happened, my regulator came out of my
23:44mouth and thank god the regulator didn't
23:47fall behind my back. It was like
23:49kind of pressed up between his mouth and
23:52me cuz it was kind of tight in there and
23:54I just saw my regulator there and I
23:56put it back in my mouth
23:59and went, okay, I got air, but I'm still
24:02in here.
24:04All right, I'm going to go first on this
24:05one cuz I know what everybody's wanting
24:06to do.
24:09Let's talk about his regulator.
24:11He says he saw his regulator. First
24:13thing he said was it was dark.
24:14Everything went dark after this train
24:15hit him.
24:17How's he going to see his regulator
24:18there? He looked down and see it out of
24:20all that.
24:21We should stop here.
24:23That this this just says no. That's that
24:26didn't happen.
24:27Uh it's this and this part is one of the
24:29things that's new. In the other
24:30interview, he didn't mention this at
24:32all. Didn't mention it at all. It would
24:34make sense something like that would
24:35happen. So, your mask would come off,
24:37too. Didn't say anything about that. Um
24:40he doesn't talk about holding his breath
24:41at all when any of that happened.
24:44Didn't say, I had to hold my breath cuz
24:45my regulator came off. That'd be one of
24:47the first things you said. When you
24:49breathe, that's life. That's the first
24:51thing you do. Chase, what do you do when
24:52you come up on somebody that's been hit
24:53by a car or they're just laying there?
24:56You make sure what?
24:58It's uh that's the big thing you check.
25:00Yeah, that's Make sure there's a clear
25:02airway. Yeah, man. Make sure they can
25:04breathe. That's the very first thing you
25:05do. If they're not breathing, you get
25:07that thing. So, when that happens to
25:08you, you're going to get that taken care
25:10of pretty quick and you're going to talk
25:11about it. Um
25:14Let's see. There's so much here. I won't
25:15do everything.
25:17Now, then when he says, okay, I got my
25:18air and then he does his big relaxation
25:20thing like everything's going to be
25:21okay. Now, but I'm still in here.
25:24Come on, man.
25:26I just I I can't I just can't get past
25:28that. These this sounds like it's in
25:30sections of his story because they're
25:32not emotionally tied together with
25:35anything with with an emotion as he goes
25:36through this. He's just telling this
25:38thing in sections as he's made them up
25:40as he tries to as he's trying to think
25:42of what it would actually be like in a
25:44whale's mouth.
25:46So, there's that. Greg, what do you got?
25:48Yeah, so when we talk about eye
25:50movement. Now, Chase, I'll go back to
25:52exactly what you just said. There's a
25:53study and and you brought it up before,
25:55Scott, called The Eyes Don't Have It.
25:57And what that study said was the eyes
25:59used on NLP, if you look to the right,
26:01didn't mean you were lying. People tried
26:02to prove that if you look a certain way,
26:04it meant you were lying. Never said that
26:05they're not eye movement patterns that
26:07are discernable that you can find for an
26:09individual person. This guy, we know
26:11that he's been doing this
26:13when he was recalling details of the
26:15jungle thing. However, now when he
26:17starts to tell stories, he drops down
26:19into his left. That's a different place.
26:21I won't go into why or that. Let's just
26:22say there's a baseline deviation. That's
26:24one. Let me say one thing, Greg. Let me
26:27say one thing about what you said once
26:28about about the NLP eye stuff. Yeah. You
26:31said they were they headed down. They
26:34thought they'd tripped up on something
26:35or heading down the right road but
26:36didn't do the correct research on it.
26:38They just sort of stopped there and
26:39said, ah, this is the way this works. I
26:41agree with you on that.
26:43Yeah, you know, I'll tell you, anecdote
26:45is not science. Everybody will tell you
26:47that. But if you see a million people do
26:49the same thing, that means something.
26:51And if you watch people and you know
26:53that you can ask the right question,
26:54find eye accessing. To Chase's point,
26:56what he happened to do was to tap into a
26:58second sensory channel. He's hitting
27:00emotion. If you isolate something
27:03someone heard that has no emotional
27:04content, you'll get a place. If you
27:07isolate a visual cue that has no
27:10emotional content, you'll get a a
27:11certain cue. The minute you start
27:13tapping into emotional things, you're
27:15going to get a different place. And
27:15that's where they missed. Is you got to
27:18get to each individual and people do all
27:20kinds of weird stuff. We're going to say
27:21where he's going in his head. He does
27:23look down to his left as he's trying to
27:25tell this guy something and raises his
27:28brow for approval that we didn't see in
27:30the other story, which is kind of
27:31interesting.
27:32I also watched the tongue jut just as he
27:34goes to down left. There's a tongue jut.
27:37A down left look as he's talking and a
27:38brow rise.
27:40Now,
27:41people lie in lots of ways. And one of
27:43those ways is embellishment. The fish
27:45wasn't this big, it was that big. So,
27:47did something happen? Don't know. Is he
27:49embellishing? Probably. That's just my
27:51guess. And even if you're telling a
27:54story that is true, you go back and you
27:56add lots of details. So, you go back and
27:58say, well, this happened and that
27:59happened and I had my respirator and
28:02you just keep adding details because
28:04never let facts get in the way of a
28:05great story. You keep adding details to
28:08make your story better. Lots of people
28:09do that. The interesting piece for me
28:11and I teach this always when I'm telling
28:13somebody when somebody tells you the
28:15fish was this big,
28:17they're illustrating out of frame.
28:19That's usually a red flag for
28:21Notice, he's illustrating out of frame
28:23over here.
28:25Entirely out of frame. He's talking over
28:26here. Then he looks at him, looks up,
28:28smiles, and eye locks.
28:31He's got a lot of details here that have
28:33no no value to the story. What I would
28:35call too much information. So, he puts
28:38me suspicious that he's embellishing
28:39something. Maybe he had a run-in of some
28:41kind, but there's too much detail.
28:43There's too much eye contact. It's
28:44prolonged. And there's a lot of change
28:46in his baseline. So, that's what I got.
28:48Um
28:49Mark, what do you got?
28:50Yeah, so again, archetypally, the
28:52pattern it's following now is the idea
28:54that the person in the in the belly of
28:56the whale who's been eaten by the beast
28:58will now be disrobed. Disrobed of of
29:01their former profession. And so if you
29:03go back and you and you read a whole
29:06bunch of getting eaten by a big animal,
29:09whether it's
29:10ending up in the stomach of a bear or or
29:13whales are better because you can kind
29:14of hang out in Pinocchio. You know,
29:16Pinocchio's father hangs out there for a
29:18good long time. And and some of the
29:20really old stories, you you get the idea
29:23that that the person had their flesh
29:24eaten away and they lost their hair and
29:26all kinds of stuff. And they still came
29:28up a month a month later. Well, he he's
29:30not going to get away with that kind of
29:32level of of story that you could get
29:34away with within the 18th century. But
29:36you can get a get get past the idea of I
29:39lost the thing that gives me life. I
29:43lost the part of my clothing that gives
29:45me gives me life and and tells you my
29:49persona, who I am. I'm a diver.
29:52And so what classically happens in these
29:54stories is there's a journey from who
29:57the person was, usually their persona,
30:00what they're seen as by the outside
30:01world as the work that they do, and who
30:04they really are internally, you know,
30:06what their what their kind of spirit is,
30:09what they what they would be without all
30:12of that outer casing. And so that I
30:15think is what we see in that part of the
30:17story is because Scott's right, like
30:19it's dark. How would you You can't see
30:21anything. You could feel around
30:23for for stuff maybe. That would make
30:25more sense, but to see it, yeah, we
30:28doesn't it doesn't, you know, come quite
30:30true around that. So I think this is an
30:32archetypal moment of being kind of de-
30:34defrocked a little bit. Now, the story
30:37could be a little bit better because he
30:39says, you know, within 5 seconds. He's
30:41got the really fast moving really fast
30:43bit. That's the kind of journey through
30:45another universe, but he's still got
30:48time. And you'll find in other
30:50archetypal stories time gets lost. Have
30:53you seen that in
30:54in alien alien abduction stories?
30:58Suddenly time is very very fluid. We
31:01moved really fast. I got transported.
31:03Time became really fluid. I don't know
31:05anything about the time. He kind of
31:07lacks that for a really good archetypal
31:08acting
31:12out of this. And again, it's really good
31:14entertainment. And I do want you to
31:16watch throughout this the interviewer
31:19because the interviewer is really
31:20showing us how we should respond to
31:23this. It's a delightful story to that
31:27interviewer. An incredible story for
31:31that interviewer as a as a brush with
31:33death.
31:35Not not
31:37not one full of Well, I mean, horror
31:40really because as we find out later,
31:42he's he says he's going to die. He's
31:44given up. He's like, "That's it for me.
31:45I'm I'm done."
31:47But what we're meant to be doing
31:49through as as the interviewer is
31:52performing for us, we're meant to be
31:53delighted and and excited by this brush
31:57with
31:58complete demise. Which again again is an
32:01odd attitude, I think, around all of
32:04this.
32:05Uh I'll I'll I'll leave it there on that
32:07one.
32:08Chase, what do you got around this?
32:10Great stuff,
32:12everybody.
32:14I'll I'll go back to a couple things I
32:15said. He shifts to the present moment
32:18when he says, "I'm traveling through the
32:20water." So we start off in the present
32:22tense.
32:24Not a good sign.
32:26Then there's some lip licking that goes
32:28on here.
32:29And we typically associate lip licking,
32:31if it's out of baseline, which I think
32:33it is here,
32:35as a hygienic gesture. It's designed to
32:37improve someone's social appearance or
32:39make them more believable or make their
32:41story more believable.
32:43If I saw this video out of context, this
32:47fluid body narration where he's telling
32:49the story and showing how big everything
32:52was, pushing through the water, he's
32:54selling it with his movements. He's
32:56showing you things. He's grabbing the
32:58regulator, putting it back in his mouth.
33:01This is different than using an
33:03illustrator. I mean, this is this is
33:05showing a story. We're really doing
33:08something to to convey a story to the
33:11listener.
33:12I'd probably say it was truthful in
33:15isolation.
33:17Uh seeing his baseline in the video you
33:20just saw and others that are that are
33:22online,
33:23he doesn't do this.
33:25Hardly ever.
33:27There is a confirmation glance to the
33:29interviewer or camera right at the end,
33:33which is if if a confirmation glance,
33:35which is like I'm looking over here and
33:37I'm telling a story, and right when I
33:39wrap it up, you see something like this.
33:43And then I look back at you at the end.
33:45It's more likely to be deceptive or
33:48potentially deceptive if it's at the
33:50end, which it is here.
33:51That's all I got.
33:58I thought you guys would think I was
34:00frozen.
34:01Okay.
34:02Sorry.
34:04Took me about 5 seconds to realize I was
34:06in that whale's mouth and
34:09and I went, "Holy
34:12I'm traveling through the water like
34:14fast." He He's like cruising through the
34:17water and water's just pouring in
34:18through his mouth. And as soon as it
34:20happened, my regulator came out of my
34:22mouth. And thank God the regulator
34:25didn't fall behind my back. It was like
34:28kind of pressed up between his mouth and
34:31me cuz it was kind of tight in there.
34:32And I just saw my regulator there and I
34:35put it back in my mouth
34:38and went, "Okay, I got air, but I'm
34:40still in here."
34:43Could you see anything? Could you feel
34:46anything like the whale's tongue?
34:49You know, what was in your immediate
34:51surrounds? I just felt all hard
34:55muscles around me and
34:58and I could feel his like I think it was
35:01his jaws kind of crushing my legs. And
35:04I'm I'm trying to like
35:07move my legs so I could get into
35:09position to like
35:11swim out of his mouth.
35:14But none of that was working. All right,
35:17Mark, what do you got?
35:18Uh yeah. So um
35:21Okay. So archetypally what's really
35:24great about this, what's really
35:26compelling about it, one of the reasons
35:28we might go, "Ah, I really like this
35:29story. I want to I want to believe it."
35:31is this idea of being being crushed. He
35:34now can't move. There's now nothing he
35:38can do uh about this. He tries to create
35:41a a heroic slightly heroic idea. His
35:44story doesn't have a massive hero
35:46element of it, but there's a little bit
35:48here of going, "I'm trying to position
35:50myself to get in a place where I could
35:52battle my way out." But what he's
35:54playing now is the idea of there is now
35:56nothing that I can do. That's again a
35:59classic archetype with these belly of
36:02whale stories is uh you get trapped and
36:06there's nothing that you can do but
36:07wait. And that's the idea of of human
36:10transformation. When you're going from,
36:12you know, the old version of you to the
36:14new version of you, you can't kind of
36:16hurry it up. You just got to wait and
36:18see what what happens and what develops.
36:21In the end, the whale will spit you out.
36:24You won't be able to fight the whale. So
36:26he's going along the right the right
36:28lines um um uh archetypally. Uh again,
36:32good physical storytelling,
36:35uh which is great enter entertainment,
36:37but so different from what we saw in
36:40that in that baseline.
36:43Um listen, here's here's what I pick up
36:45from both this one and the last one. If
36:47it were me, and I know, you know, we
36:49can't judge everybody by ourselves. One
36:52of the things we have to do is
36:53critically think and put ourselves in
36:55other situations. But
36:57but if it were me, um and I'd been in
36:59that situation,
37:01I personally would have gone and
37:03researched now what the name of stuff
37:06is. And I did a little bit of research
37:08to go, "Well, I wonder what it is like
37:09inside a whale's mouth and what would
37:11you actually feel and what's the name of
37:14all the stuff there?" Cuz it's it's no
37:16mystery what the stuff is. There's very
37:18particular stuff in there. And so in the
37:22telling of the story, if it were
37:25true, um what I'd want to be able to do
37:28and was to go, "Look, it was super dark
37:30and I couldn't see
37:32anything and I was totally crushed and
37:34and I could feel this hard stuff and and
37:36and what that is I've now learned is I
37:40would want to learn where had I been
37:42exactly. What exactly has happened to me
37:46and and what do other professionals who
37:49know this environment? Cuz there's
37:51there's people who like know the inside
37:53of a whale's mouth really well. Like I
38:04no way you can get swallowed by a whale.
38:06Yeah, there's no way because because
38:09biologists can't even get their their
38:10arm down a a whale's esophagus. I mean,
38:13it's a massive mouth because it's
38:15collecting up krill and sardines and
38:16whatever and filtering them out with
38:18these kind of bony things. And so you'd
38:20be able to say say, "Well, the hard
38:22stuff it was under the jawbone or it
38:24felt kind of rough. It was it was
38:26probably the filter system of of of the
38:29whale. And and I now know that I wasn't
38:32going to get swallowed because you can't
38:33get swallowed by a by a whale. I'd know
38:36that stuff." And he
38:38tricky to deal with. It's like, "I got
38:40swallowed by a whale.
38:42No more investigation needed on
38:45on that. No more detail. Don't need to
38:47Not even going to look at a little book
38:48on that. I mean, it's all over the
38:49internet what the inside of a whale's
38:51mouth is like, but I'm not not going to
38:52bother."
38:53I'm a bit I'm a bit intrigued by that
38:56one. But look, that's just me. Maybe
38:57it's me. I you know, I'm intrigued by
38:59stuff. I want to look at it and maybe
39:01it's just maybe it's just me. Uh Scott,
39:04what do you got on this one?
39:05All right. Again, this one's going to be
39:07short because I'm not buying any of
39:09this.
39:10He starts off with talking about how he
39:12can feel the jaws crushing his legs.
39:16You know, and then he's talking about a
39:17plan. He's trying to plan to swim out.
39:20Pain is will will focus your mind. It's
39:24a It's It's It plays an important part
39:26when something like this is going on.
39:29It's a powerful motivator.
39:31And if something's crushing your legs,
39:33you're not going to try to be thinking
39:34about swimming out. You're going to be
39:36screaming again, "Oh God, no, please. Oh
39:38God, no, please no." That's where you're
39:40going with that at that point cuz it
39:42hurts. If you think your legs are
39:43getting crushed, his weren't. The doctor
39:46said didn't have any any any soft tissue
39:48damage, but he says his knee hurt.
39:51That's what he said.
39:53So, this I I'm I'm that's all I'm not
39:56going to I got nothing at that point cuz
39:59I can't focus on it any more than that
40:00because it just sounds like
40:03you know what to me. So, Chase, what do
40:06you got?
40:07I think everybody knows and I I've
40:09learned this long ago in my childhood.
40:11If you're ever in there, you dig around,
40:14you find some wood between all the fish
40:16bones, and you start a fire.
40:18That's what you do.
40:19Everybody knows that. That old chestnut.
40:24Uh so, there's
40:26fabulous body narration here. He's a
40:29wonderful storyteller. He's captivating
40:32storyteller.
40:34There's some lip licking at the
40:36beginning here with a no head shake.
40:39He's shaking the head no. His eyes move
40:42down here to
40:44internal dialogue. And there's some
40:48great body narration in here, but he's
40:50going
40:51He's talking about
40:53I'm trying to move my legs. When he's
40:55saying I'm want to move my legs.
40:58There's some stress on the cleidomastoid
41:02muscles right here, which is associated
41:04with fear.
41:06And he's doing that while looking at the
41:08interviewer.
41:09And I think there's some
41:12maybe some stress here around telling
41:14this part of the story. It's either
41:16stress from it really happening and him
41:18recalling the fear
41:20or stress, which we typically see
41:23when people do a confirmation glance
41:25towards a questioner.
41:28Greg?
41:29Yeah, so a handful of things. Number
41:31one, I see his respiration up. Number
41:33two, I see a tongue jut. Number three, I
41:35see him looking down left for internal
41:37conversation.
41:38Number four, his cadence has shifted. He
41:41is now dragging along thinking of the
41:44details as he speaks. And I'm going to
41:46give you a really weird story. When I
41:49was 18, I wrestled a bear. Let me tell
41:51you, I don't have to think about the
41:52details about what that was like. It was
41:54one of the scariest damn things I ever
41:55did in my life.
41:56I thought it was a great idea, and then
41:57I got in there, and this thing was a
41:59bear. And that's all you need to know.
42:01But from there, if you ask me details, I
42:03can give them to you like that. It's not
42:04going to be, well, then it was like he
42:06was like a big tall man in a suit. No,
42:09it's a bear. It was a whale. It was
42:11crunching me, and this was happening.
42:13You would remember those details. And
42:14you also would not lilt up at the end of
42:17each of those things.
42:19This guy's navigating story. He's making
42:21the details fit what he wants you to
42:23feel. He's not telling you that he
42:24wrestled a bear. He's not telling you he
42:26was swallowed by a whale. He's telling
42:28you a story. That's what I see.
42:31Hey.
42:31We good?
42:33Yeah. That was a true story, by the way.
42:35Was it Was it
42:36Tell the story. Tell the story, Greg.
42:39Let's hear it.
42:43Yeah, you I didn't pay. It was I was 18,
42:46and this guy was traveling around who
42:48was a wrestler who traveled around with
42:49a bear that people would wrestle. And
42:50all these celebrities would wrestle him.
42:52And I was I was like, I want to do it.
42:54And the guy goes, no, this is for
42:56celebrities.
42:57So, I walk up, and at the time I had
43:00bushy red hair, and the guy goes
43:02the the local sportscaster walked up and
43:04said, there's no way in hell I'm getting
43:06in there, and walked off. And he said,
43:08hey Red, come up here. And I went in and
43:09wrestled him.
43:10And I thought, okay, he's a bear. He
43:12walks on his back legs. He's clumsy.
43:13I'll grab his back legs and knock him
43:15down. No. I grabbed his back legs, and
43:17he picked me up and slammed me on the
43:19ground. It started from there.
43:21And he you know, he weighed 600 lb or
43:24so, and the guy would give him little
43:25signals to tell him to sit down and you
43:27know how much weight to put. And I kept
43:29getting out from under him cuz I was
43:30pretty you know, pretty fast. And
43:32finally, the guy goes, and the bear put
43:34all his weight on me. I was like, oh, I
43:36give up. I give up. It was about that
43:37quick. About 30 seconds.
43:41That's great. I love the idea of like, I
43:44think I'll just take his legs from under
43:45him. Yeah. He's a bear. There would have
43:47been 5 million years of bears having
43:50doing that to bears. It's like, and by
43:53now, the bear has learned, yeah, no way.
43:55He was getting all tactical on him. He
43:57was grabbing two trees, you know, they
43:59just kind of stopped when you hit them.
44:01Yeah. Jeez.
44:05Could you see anything? Could you feel
44:07anything like the whale's tongue?
44:10Um you know, what was in your immediate
44:12surrounds? I just felt all hard
44:17muscles around me, and
44:19and I could feel his like I think it was
44:22his jaws kind of crushing my legs. And
44:25I'm I'm trying to like
44:28move my legs so I could get into
44:30position to like
44:33swim out of his mouth.
44:35But none of that was working.
44:39For you, it's life or death. At this
44:42point, you think you're going to die. I
44:44was convinced. You know, I I was
44:46convinced.
44:48And
44:49and I'm getting shivers right now.
44:53Um
44:55Yeah, I was convinced. I I was I was
44:57dead, and and all I could think about
44:59was my boys and a lovely wife,
45:02and a mother that
45:04has gone through hell. Yeah, I was I was
45:08convinced, okay.
45:10This is how you're going to go, Michael.
45:12This sucks.
45:18This This sucks.
45:21Mark, what do you got?
45:23Uh yeah. So, um so, first of all, he has
45:26to tell us the feeling, okay? He has to
45:28signal to us verbally, well, I'm getting
45:30goose bumps.
45:32Uh what what
45:33usually would happen is you just get
45:35goose bumps, and the emotion just hits
45:38you. You don't usually tell somebody
45:41beforehand, hey, here's what's on its
45:44way. Here's what's coming.
45:46So, that's that's a little bit of an
45:48issue to me. Then there's this kind of
45:50um
45:51double cough that comes for for no
45:55reason. You know, that for me is a very
45:57large version of the vocal click.
46:00Where there's there's something has to
46:03go on,
46:05uh which doesn't need to go on. There's
46:06no need for him to clear his throat. Uh
46:09he's not expended enough emotional
46:12energy or or delivered enough words to
46:16really need have a anything of the build
46:18up I I would suggest. So, it it's really
46:21about trying to
46:22fill time and and distract, I think that
46:27that that uh that coughing there. Um
46:31What's interesting again in terms of a
46:34of a story is it's heading along the
46:37right lines for us to be a compelling
46:39story because there's this moment of of
46:42realization that uh of of his of of his
46:46real role, which is that of parent,
46:48husband, and son of somebody else who's
46:52been to to hell as well. That's really
46:55interesting because if you look at all
46:57the heroes, the heroes are all always
47:00born of somebody who did something of
47:04the same journey as well. So, so it's
47:06beautifully archetypal, and and this
47:09comes from just This is just a cultural
47:11behavior. We get We get these stories
47:13all the time. Uh you only need to watch
47:17all of the Marvel films, and they are
47:19they are as old as the as the hills.
47:21There's plenty of bellies of the whale
47:24in all of those Marvel films, for
47:26example. So, he's picking up on these
47:28culturally, and then some would say it's
47:31actually embedded even deeper in a in a
47:34kind of a universal
47:36uh genetic code, which which may have
47:39some validity to it as well. But
47:42essentially, we pass culture can do the
47:44work without DNA. We pass down stories
47:48um
47:49over time.
47:51Uh so, he's he's now We've now got to
47:53the point in the story where his
47:57his He's been disrobed. His profession
48:00is no longer his persona, and he's
48:02realized his new persona, which is that
48:05of the parent, the husband, and the son.
48:09So, the story's going quite beautifully
48:11uh at at this point. And uh and he tried
48:14to bring us some emotion that had to
48:16signal it to us.
48:18Uh that's not That's not so good a
48:19performance.
48:20Chase, what do you got for us?
48:22Mark, I think you could look at a
48:23Starbucks menu and find some kind of
48:26Disney or story structure
48:30element to it.
48:31I I can I can actually look at a
48:33Starbucks cup and do it, but okay. Yeah.
48:36I could, too. That's expertise.
48:39Starbucks is called Starbucks, and it's
48:40to do with whales. So, write down below
48:44what the what the connection is between
48:47Starbucks
48:49and whales. Anyway, thanks for that,
48:51Chase.
48:52Yeah.
48:55So, the reporter shifts to a present
48:59tense provocative statement. If you'll
49:01notice, the reporter's not asking a
49:02question. He's using a provocative
49:04statement, but he's present tensing the
49:07person that he's asking here.
49:09And
49:12we see the the response. He is selling
49:15emotion. He conveys the shivers before
49:18the emotional part of the story to show
49:20you, I'm getting emotional here, but
49:22just to tell you like here's some
49:24evidence for it. I'm going to give you a
49:26little bit of evidence just so you know,
49:27so you know it's the real deal.
49:30And and it looks as though he's holding
49:32back emotion here. He's holding back
49:35some agony.
49:36And the shivers were discussed to ensure
49:39you had more data to verify in case that
49:44didn't sell it all the way.
49:46And
49:47he's repeating
49:49uh
49:50convinced is is more deceptive than
49:53repeating the thoughts that he's had,
49:55like I'm going to die. Holy crap. Oh my
49:58god. Not I was convinced. He He did not
50:02have that thought in there. Well, if he
50:04did, that may might be the first human
50:07to do that. I am convinced that I'm
50:09going to die.
50:10Uh I'm going to die is
50:13more compelling and more truthful. When
50:16we say I'm convinced, we're trying to
50:19convince another person.
50:22I think it's interesting that he said,
50:24"All I could think of was my boys and I
50:27have a lovely wife." Which is present
50:29tense and separated. A little bit
50:32different.
50:34Uh
50:36His His dramatization had some lip
50:39licking in there. And
50:42there's a there's a completion glance,
50:44like, okay, I'm done with the story now.
50:47And the reporter didn't
50:49keep going. He let it hang. And those
50:52are the moments when we can see
50:56whether or not
50:57Scott will let you talk about it.
51:00Those are great moments.
51:02Uh Scott, what do you got? Okay. Yeah,
51:05this isn't going to take long for me at
51:06all again.
51:08I think that face he's making, he's
51:09trying to conjure up that emotion he had
51:11when he when he was talking about dying
51:13from the airplane crash, but he couldn't
51:15do it. He couldn't get it He couldn't
51:17get it to happen. So, that's why he
51:18makes that odd face. But, I agree with
51:20you, Chase. There's all that stuff going
51:22on. He's running all those all those
51:24scenarios that that you're talking
51:26about. That's going on right there. But,
51:28he tries to look like he's crying. He
51:29can't pull it off. Cuz cuz obviously
51:32it's not true. To me anyway, it's
51:33obviously it's not true. Um
51:36then
51:37uh
51:38Then he Then he goes into the classic
51:39what I'll call the Hartley Chaff and
51:42Drag redirect. Which is he just starts
51:44talking about other stuff after that. He
51:46talks So, you thought you were going to
51:47die? Yeah, I thought I was going to die.
51:49And then he
51:50does that little
51:52Then Yeah, then he goes on
51:55to talk about his kids and his wife. And
51:57then he leaves them hanging right there.
51:59And he doesn't know what else to say.
52:00So, he just keeps going. In other words,
52:02you know? You know? Like that.
52:05Repeating.
52:06That's Yeah, just that repetition. It's
52:08just
52:09uh it's it's it's so painful to watch.
52:12Oh god. Anyway, Greg, what do you got?
52:15Yeah, same thing. The fake cry. If
52:17you've already cried in front of a
52:18camera, you should probably not try it
52:20again unless you're ready for it. And be
52:22ready, you know, it's not like we don't
52:23have something to compare it to. Now, of
52:25course, he's probably not thinking,
52:26"Hey, somebody's going to watch
52:27something from 20 years ago and compare
52:28me." But, we are. He breaks eye contact
52:31away and looks down to the left when he
52:33can't conjure the emotion. If you're
52:34going to fake cry, at least go to an
52:36emotional space and try to remember
52:37something. Maybe he is trying to
52:38remember that. Uh but, that is a great
52:40use of let him talk. It's among my
52:43favorite. You see that little whimper in
52:44the head shake. And then he goes into a
52:46filibuster is probably a good word for
52:48it. He just kind of has to say something
52:49and he's just uh
52:51puking words. And there's no real value
52:53to him. You guys got everything else.
52:54That's just all I have. He's not adding
52:56credibility to his story with whimpering
52:59kind of cry. We didn't see any chin
53:01boss. That's that.
53:03Yeah. And we might say at the end he's
53:05blubbering.
53:10Yeah.
53:12All right, I quit.
53:18For you, it's life or death. At this
53:21point, you think you're going to die. I
53:24was convinced. You know, I I was
53:26convinced. And and I'm getting shivers
53:30right now.
53:33Um
53:35Yeah, I was convinced. I I was I was
53:37dead. And and all I could think about
53:39was my boys and I have a lovely wife.
53:42And a mother that
53:44has gone through hell. Yeah, I was I was
53:48convinced, okay.
53:50This is how you're going to go, Michael.
53:52This sucks.
53:58It's It sucks.
54:03His frightening fear was that the
54:05humpback would panic and then dive,
54:08taking him to a deep and slow death.
54:12Okay, I'm in here. I just dove down. I
54:16have a full tank of air.
54:19Am I going to be in this whale's mouth
54:22for the next
54:2350 minutes
54:25until I run out of air? Because it
54:28I could tell that he wasn't going to
54:29kill me, me me being in his mouth. It
54:31It's just I'm stuck in his mouth.
54:34And then I felt him going up and I saw
54:37light. And then he started getting
54:39really erratic and really like shaking
54:42and
54:43and getting aggressive. And I was like,
54:45"Oh my god, he doesn't like this.
54:48He He's trying to get rid of me." I had
54:50just a tiny bit of hope and then
54:53he's thrashing and going back and forth
54:55and all of a sudden, light.
54:58Chase, what do you got?
55:01If you just look at a dive table,
55:03uh
55:04which we were just talking about,
55:06he would have something called
55:08barotrauma. Or this is where we get
55:11injured from going to high pressure to
55:13low pressure pretty quickly.
55:15This is where the nitrogen bubbles and
55:17the tiny little bubbles in your
55:20whole body shrink down and then get big
55:23really fast. And that causes a big
55:24problem. And
55:27he says he's already near the bottom.
55:29And he's diving in his scuba gear near
55:32the bottom. I'm not sure how
55:36he could be worried about diving to the
55:38depths. And that's going to be one of
55:40his big fears. Unless maybe there's some
55:42big cliff or some scary hole
55:46right there where these whales like to
55:47hang out in.
55:49But, I'm not sure.
55:51So, when we when we're watching this,
55:54he uses present tense three times.
55:58We see him say,
56:00"And I'm in here." And he says here, not
56:03there. It's very important. If you're
56:05ever listening to somebody and they're
56:06telling a past tense story and they use
56:08here language as if they're in that
56:11location. So, it's not just present
56:13tense. It's geographically changed to
56:15that location. Then he says, "I just
56:19dive down. I have a full tank of air."
56:21Then there's some lip licking going on.
56:24Which we talked about already. And then
56:26there's a shift to past tense.
56:29There is
56:31a genuine smile when he's talk when he's
56:34saying he's trying to get rid of me. I
56:35think there's some actual elation on the
56:38on the face there.
56:40But, he uses and then three times and he
56:43uses the word and nine times in this
56:46tiny little clip. Which Greg would call
56:49hiding time. I think that's a perfect uh
56:51thing. I've already stolen it in some of
56:53my trainings and and reused it. Uh
56:56Scott, what do you got?
56:57All right. Um
56:59This wouldn't be the process you'd use
57:01to describe what was happening. You just
57:03And you just said all that, Chase.
57:05That's part of what you're saying in a
57:07nutshell there.
57:08Like I said before, he's already at or
57:10near the bottom. So, where where is this
57:12thing going?
57:13It's not going anywhere cuz he's not in
57:15it.
57:16I'll tell you where I think he is in a
57:17minute. Do you guys Do you guys know
57:18where you think he is already?
57:20Or what happens? We'll talk about that
57:22at the end.
57:23Um
57:24And then he talks about moving. He's
57:26talking about moving the whole time.
57:28From since he got in this thing,
57:30supposedly, all he talks about is this
57:32movement that that's going on. He's
57:33moving, moving. He finally goes up. And
57:36the whale starts getting violent trying
57:37to shake him out. That's not the way
57:39whales get rid of stuff in their mouth
57:40at all. Not even a little bit. They
57:42don't shake their head. You don't shake
57:44your head. It doesn't have a head. It
57:46just shakes the whole The thing would go
57:47back and forth like that. It just turns
57:49its mouth and throws you out. It's not
57:51tough at all. Like Mark, I got on there
57:54and looked around, too. I saw that video
57:55on what happens if you get swallowed by
57:57a whale for real. You go through like
57:58four stomachs. Like my old English
58:01teacher had.
58:04I should take that out.
58:06Um
58:07to come get you. Yeah. Yeah, I shouldn't
58:09have said that. Anyway,
58:11uh this is not how you tell the story. I
58:13don't think that I I I I I don't think
58:15this happened. I can't Again, I can't go
58:17any further than this. It's just on my
58:19last nerve. Mark, what do you got? Yeah,
58:22so I can everybody help help try to make
58:24the story better. I mean, just an an
58:25even better myth. Because he is what he
58:29is trying to do here is touch the
58:30mythological. And there's nothing wrong
58:32with that. As as Greg has said, now you
58:35know, you you can't let facts get in the
58:37way of a great story. So, it needs
58:39embellishing even further, which
58:41actually means he does need to go down
58:43deeper. It does need to get worse. And
58:46what a great opportunity,
58:48as Chase was saying, to get the bends.
58:50Therefore, to get, you know, the wrong
58:53amount of nitrogen bubbles in your blood
58:55and start to go into a another worldly
58:58experience where you would lose time.
59:01And therefore, you could say, "I just
59:02don't know what was happening in time at
59:04that point." I kept going deeper and
59:06deeper and deeper. And now we're into
59:08much better archetypal storytelling.
59:10But, where this goes is is straight to
59:13the new metaphor, which is up into the
59:15light, which again is a is a is a is a
59:18classic. Um the payoff has started to
59:20come in this story. He's up towards the
59:22light. He now starts signaling towards
59:24the moment of chaos, which is like the
59:27final battle. It's like, you know, in
59:29Lord of the Rings where there's just a
59:30final, you know, massive nutty battle
59:33that goes on or or any or any Marvel
59:36movie at the moment where where it's
59:38just this chaotic bunch of incredible
59:41action just goes on. That's what he's
59:43trying to signal out there of total
59:45chaos and at the end of it you get a
59:47moment of of of rebirth. You come out at
59:51a different person and there he is
59:54floating on top of the water looking at
59:56the sky looking at the ethereal. Uh and
59:59and new person. That's what he's what
1:00:01he's hinting towards in this story it
1:00:04happens a little bit a little bit quick.
1:00:06Uh you know, maybe this story will will
1:00:09embellish over over time and as it's
1:00:12told to somebody and told to somebody
1:00:14else. Uh maybe you'll go and tell this
1:00:17story and and embellish it a little bit
1:00:19more and it'll be even more compelling
1:00:21than it is. It's not a bad story. It's a
1:00:23great It's a great story. As to how
1:00:25accurate it is, there's probably some
1:00:28element I mean yeah, he's a diver. He
1:00:30dives for lobsters. It's like that's
1:00:32that's happening. He's probably been
1:00:33near some whales. He maybe had a brush
1:00:36with a whale. One got really really
1:00:38close maybe that day maybe another day.
1:00:41I don't I I
1:00:42I don't know.
1:00:44Um
1:00:45but on this particular day, you're not
1:00:47sure not sure about that.
1:00:49Uh who have we got left? Uh Greg? Yeah.
1:00:52Yeah. Yeah, so you covered almost
1:00:54everything. What I would say is this,
1:00:56I'm a diver. I'm going to give you times
1:00:59and a full tank of air will give me 51
1:01:01minutes or 54 minutes I forget what he
1:01:02said. And you know, what he's using is
1:01:05some facts to lend credibility to his
1:01:07story. Not important to the story. Who
1:01:09cares if you got 54 minutes in a whale's
1:01:11mouth cuz if you're really a diver, you
1:01:13know that if he goes 300 ft down, first
1:01:16of all, your air is not going to last as
1:01:17long at that depth and you also know
1:01:20that
1:01:21you're going to burn up a lot of air if
1:01:23you're in a whale's mouth. It's not
1:01:24going to be 54 minutes. It's going to be
1:01:26some derivative thereof. So he's using
1:01:28some facts that he has that you the
1:01:32public may not have.
1:01:33That's too much information to me. I I
1:01:35if I'm thinking about what I'm doing
1:01:37inside this whale's mouth, I'm thinking
1:01:39I'm trying to get out. I'm poking. I'm
1:01:40gouging. I'm grabbing its back. I'm
1:01:42doing whatever it takes to get away. I'm
1:01:44going to do what
1:01:46I'm going to tell you everything I did.
1:01:47Just a weird too much information kind
1:01:49of storytelling. He's accessing and it's
1:01:52just storytelling is what it feels like.
1:01:54If doesn't mean that he didn't get
1:01:56swallowed by a whale. No, you could
1:01:58still get swallowed by a whale and come
1:01:59up and make up a bunch of stories and
1:02:00make the story better. Get grabbed by a
1:02:02whale and there are people who have been
1:02:03grabbed by whales and have
1:02:05visual evidence of it, pictures of it. I
1:02:06don't think that's the case here. That's
1:02:08it.
1:02:09His frightening fear was that the
1:02:11humpback would panic and then dive
1:02:14taking him to a deep and slow death.
1:02:19Okay, I'm in here. I just dove down. I
1:02:22have a full tank of air.
1:02:25Am I going to be in this whale's mouth
1:02:28for the next
1:02:2950 minutes
1:02:31until I run out of air? Because it
1:02:34I could tell that he wasn't going to
1:02:35kill me me me being in his mouth. It
1:02:37It's just I'm stuck in his mouth.
1:02:40And then I felt him going up and I saw
1:02:43light and then he started getting really
1:02:45erratic and really like shaking and
1:02:49and getting aggressive and I was like,
1:02:52"Oh my god, he doesn't like this.
1:02:54He He's trying to get rid of me."
1:02:56I had just a tiny bit of hope and then
1:02:59he's thrashing and going back and forth
1:03:01and all of a sudden light. Okay.
1:03:05I just was laying on the surface of the
1:03:07water looking up.
1:03:10And I was like,
1:03:11"Oh my god,
1:03:14I got out of it.
1:03:18I got out of it. I'm alive. No matter
1:03:21how injured I am, I'm not going to die.
1:03:25I'm here.
1:03:27I could have broken legs. I could have a
1:03:28broken back, but I'm not dead and I'm
1:03:31not going to die in a whale's mouth."
1:03:33That was your first thought or what was
1:03:35the first word that popped truly into
1:03:38your mind when you got spat out? I can't
1:03:41believe
1:03:42I escaped that.
1:03:46All right.
1:03:47Uh Chase, what do you got?
1:03:51Wonderful body narration again.
1:03:55And
1:03:56it's truthful sounding tone shifting
1:03:59where the tone is up and down. It sounds
1:04:02like maybe a truthful story if you
1:04:03didn't know the baseline.
1:04:05I might I might dig it.
1:04:08There's more lip licking.
1:04:10So we're seeing that it's a baseline for
1:04:11a certain type of behavior here.
1:04:15But there's something before he's
1:04:17continuing with the I got out of it.
1:04:20There's what's called an attention
1:04:22check. So he's making sure that there's
1:04:24some attention there before he gets to
1:04:26this part of the story. But he makes one
1:04:28big mistake
1:04:30that I see
1:04:32all too often with a lot of the people
1:04:35who eventually wind up being guilty and
1:04:37that is he breaks eye contact at the
1:04:40critical moment of the story.
1:04:44He looks away as if there's a need to
1:04:47access something.
1:04:49And
1:04:51my phone's going off. Sorry.
1:04:56There's some expression modification
1:04:57there. You see his facial expression
1:04:59change and get modified when he says,
1:05:01"I'm not going to die."
1:05:03And then in a whale's mouth is an
1:05:05afterthought. And right after that I
1:05:07think he regrets just throwing that on
1:05:10top of it. There's lip compression.
1:05:12There's a tongue jut. There's eye
1:05:13flutter. You guys can talk about that.
1:05:16There's more eye flutter at the second
1:05:18question.
1:05:19And
1:05:20he says escaped
1:05:22that.
1:05:24Not from that. Not escaped that whale.
1:05:27Not the whale spat me out. He escaped
1:05:30from something or he got out of
1:05:32something or got untangled from
1:05:34something here.
1:05:36And
1:05:38I'll pass it to you, Greg.
1:05:40Yeah, different eye accessing cue this
1:05:42time. Look, changed entirely where he
1:05:44went in the hemisphere of his head. I
1:05:46mean, we all say patterns matter and
1:05:48we've seen what he does. He looks left.
1:05:50He looks left. He looks left. Now he's
1:05:52looking right. Suddenly he's changing
1:05:54something. He's still got the
1:05:56storytelling down. His blink rate goes
1:05:59through the roof and then he eye locks
1:06:02and does that mouth grimacing thing. All
1:06:04those are indicators that we didn't see
1:06:06when he was telling the story about a
1:06:07plane crash. Didn't see him then.
1:06:09Probably shouldn't see him now if he's
1:06:10telling the same story. Scott?
1:06:13Yeah, I I think what happened to here
1:06:15was
1:06:16he he makes it so uncomfortable for you
1:06:18to go against what he's saying with that
1:06:21whole laughing wonderfully I'm going to
1:06:24live thing.
1:06:25It's It's just like a child. He's
1:06:27talking like a little kid telling a
1:06:29story.
1:06:30And having said that,
1:06:32one time I my sister's son Jay was he
1:06:36was 9 years old
1:06:37and I would come through the kitchen and
1:06:39I would say, "Hey, what's going on,
1:06:40man?" He said, "Did you know I'm the the
1:06:42um one of those guns that are that are
1:06:45they're plastic but they look real? Um
1:06:47Airsoft. Airsoft. He said, "Did you know
1:06:51I'm the airsoft champion in Nashville of
1:06:53of Knoxville?" I said, "No, I didn't
1:06:55know that, man. You're the airsoft
1:06:57champion in city." He said, "Yeah, man,
1:06:58we have we have you know, contests all
1:07:00the time and I'm I'm the number one guy
1:07:02in the whole in all Knoxville." I was
1:07:04like, "You're kidding." I was buying
1:07:05"You're kidding me." He's like, "No."
1:07:07And my brother was coming through the
1:07:08kitchen. I said, "Hey, Mitch, come here.
1:07:10Did you know Jay is like the he's the
1:07:12number one airsoft guy in Knoxville?"
1:07:14And he goes, "No, he isn't." I said,
1:07:16"Well, you tell him." He was Oh, he was
1:07:18selling it, man. I was buying the whole
1:07:19thing. But it was his delivery of it. It
1:07:21just looked so so real and just sell it
1:07:24to me. And I was like, "Yeah, okay." So
1:07:26I can get taken by these. But this one
1:07:29is where his accent then his story then
1:07:31Jay's story. This is And this is a
1:07:339-year-old and this guy is like in his
1:07:3550s at least and he's telling this.
1:07:37Age probably, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think
1:07:39he what he's doing is telling is making
1:07:41it so uncomfortable for this guy to go
1:07:43against him
1:07:44that you can't say, "Wait a minute, are
1:07:46you kidding? You you know, hold on a
1:07:47second. Back up a minute." You can't do
1:07:49that cuz it's like, "Oh, it's it's over
1:07:50now." It's not. He's got a couple more
1:07:51things to say. That's That's what I
1:07:53think. I just I just I'm trying to get
1:07:55into this. I just It's tough, man. It's
1:07:58tough. I just he just irks me the you
1:08:00know what out of me. Mark, what do you
1:08:02got? Yeah, well, for start, what I've
1:08:05got is it's much more fun to hang out
1:08:07with the, you know, airsoft champion of
1:08:10of Knoxville than not. And that's why
1:08:13you buy the It's just much more fun.
1:08:15Like, you know, this is my friend. He's
1:08:17the air gun champion or this is my
1:08:18friend. He's totally average but
1:08:21possibly below average.
1:08:23You know, so that's that's why, you
1:08:25know, it's important to accept a lie
1:08:27or a or a grand story because it makes
1:08:30life much more fun. So, you know, around
1:08:34that we we don't want to be too harsh on
1:08:36this on this guy because he is coming up
1:08:38with with, you know, he's getting
1:08:40towards a quite a good story here. Um I
1:08:43think what's happening here so this is
1:08:44where we hear the repetition of of
1:08:46exactly what we heard in the first story
1:08:49here. Um I'm alive.
1:08:51Um my oh my god oh my god I'm alive.
1:08:54It's It's I think almost a direct quote
1:08:59from his uh last one which is a real
1:09:03trauma. Here's what I believe and this
1:09:05is a bit of like, you know, the doctor
1:09:07is in.
1:09:08But but I think it is the projection of
1:09:13that trauma onto a new story. I think
1:09:16that's simply what's what's happening
1:09:17here. It's a way to to enjoy and live
1:09:20through and express some of that old
1:09:25trauma which would be be traumatic. You
1:09:27crash
1:09:28worst thing ever. You crash in a plane
1:09:30and you're in the middle of a jungle.
1:09:32It's like there's nothing good about
1:09:33that. There's no upside, I think, to to
1:09:37any of that. And the trauma that
1:09:39somebody must go through. And then, of
1:09:42course, yeah, to then put that trauma
1:09:44somewhere else in an even potentially a
1:09:48a grander narrative that you actually
1:09:50have a little bit of control of as well.
1:09:54I mean, that there's some there's some
1:09:55benefits to that. And bring that story
1:09:58to a a bigger audience. There's some
1:10:00benefits to that as well, which we can
1:10:02talk about a little bit later. But I
1:10:03think that's what's happening here. It's
1:10:05the retelling of that crash story uh in
1:10:09a in an in another land,
1:10:12essentially. Um which says something,
1:10:14you know, quite important about about
1:10:16that,
1:10:17uh for sure. The idea of um you can't
1:10:21escape those moments. Essentially, in
1:10:25both in both of those stories, you can't
1:10:27escape those moments. You have to let
1:10:30them pass. It's like anything that grabs
1:10:33hold of you and and strips you of
1:10:36everything that you already knew cuz
1:10:38it's so traumatic, you can't fight your
1:10:41way out of it. You have to just let it
1:10:44pass and find out who you are and what
1:10:47you're left with, you know, after that.
1:10:50This is an important it's an important
1:10:53uh lesson uh for people. Uh so, that's
1:10:55all I got on on that one.
1:10:57I just was laying on the surface of the
1:10:59water looking up.
1:11:02And I was like,
1:11:04oh my god,
1:11:06I got out of it.
1:11:10I got out of it. I'm alive. No matter
1:11:14how injured I am, I'm not going to die.
1:11:18I'm here.
1:11:19I could have broken legs, I could have a
1:11:21broken back, but I'm not dead and I'm
1:11:23not going to die. in a whale's mouth.
1:11:26That was your first thought? Or what was
1:11:27the first word that popped truly into
1:11:30your mind when you got spat out? I can't
1:11:33believe
1:11:34I escaped that.
1:11:37That's too bad.
1:11:39There are definitely people out there
1:11:41who would say, "This is just all made
1:11:45up."
1:11:45There's been some of that here. At
1:11:47first, it didn't really bother me. But
1:11:50then it started to bother me and I kind
1:11:53of talked to friends of mine and friends
1:11:55were reaching out to me
1:11:57and and and and just telling, "Don't
1:12:00worry about them, Michael. We know you.
1:12:03We've known you your whole life. Michael
1:12:05Packard's the last person
1:12:08to make up something like this. If
1:12:10anything, I downplay stuff. It's like,
1:12:12you know, I go out in gale force winds
1:12:15and, you know, catch giant tuna by
1:12:17myself and then I'll come in and they'll
1:12:19say, "How was the weather?"
1:12:20Uh wasn't bad. And so, the reinforcement
1:12:23that I got from the community
1:12:25really just
1:12:28made me not worry about what anybody
1:12:31else had to say.
1:12:32All right, Greg, what do you got? Um I'm
1:12:34just going to hit a few things. I'll
1:12:35leave plenty for you guys. He's talking
1:12:37about himself in third person, number
1:12:39one. Does resume statements about being
1:12:41He-Man.
1:12:42Um there's little dupers delight
1:12:44actually going on. One shoulder rises
1:12:47and he does the sour taste thing. Guys,
1:12:48you watched us enough, you know, all of
1:12:50the Any of those individually, you
1:12:51probably like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, so what?
1:12:53He did raise his shoulder." Oh, little
1:12:54dupers delight, maybe. Or at least a
1:12:56little smile, whether it's dupers or
1:12:58not. Talking about yourself in third
1:12:59person and then telling everybody, you
1:13:01know, "I'm made out of iron and
1:13:04All that together makes you start to go,
1:13:06"Yeah, maybe not. Maybe this is not what
1:13:09it appears to be." Chase, I'll let you
1:13:11take it from there.
1:13:13I think this is a great opportunity for
1:13:15a baseline check cuz it does bother him.
1:13:17So, we are seeing some stuff here that
1:13:19actually does bother him.
1:13:21Uh there's no eye flutter.
1:13:24And it started to bother him. Some
1:13:26friends called. And when he said friends
1:13:28called, there's some auditory recall.
1:13:30There's he's looking to the side for the
1:13:32first time in a long time, if I haven't
1:13:34seen it yet.
1:13:36And
1:13:37so, I think that's truthful.
1:13:39And when he says, "I'm the last person
1:13:42to make up something,"
1:13:44we see some glabella, which is these two
1:13:47little lines here, which typically means
1:13:49uh disagreement. That muscle flexes
1:13:52there. And we see a very rapid eye
1:13:55flutter or eye blocking
1:13:57uh behavior here, which is indicative of
1:13:59high levels of stress.
1:14:01But I want you to pay attention
1:14:04for this because if you're interviewing
1:14:06a babysitter for your kids, you're
1:14:08interviewing somebody that's going to
1:14:09work for your company, this is a big
1:14:10deal. When he talks about the community,
1:14:13you will see contempt on his face.
1:14:17And you can see it right there with the
1:14:18left side of his mouth go go right up
1:14:20when he talks about the community.
1:14:22That's all I got. Uh Mark.
1:14:24Yeah, I mean, you you picked through, I
1:14:26think, just about everything there.
1:14:28Yeah, I saw the the sour taste, the
1:14:30contempt, uh the resume statement, um
1:14:33you know, use of third person,
1:14:36um the last person. Um I'll just add one
1:14:40more thing to it, which is something
1:14:42like this.
1:14:44Okay, so you could you could make up
1:14:47this then,
1:14:48but you'd be the last person to make up
1:14:50something like this. But this is a
1:14:52possibility. So, look at good answer a
1:14:56good answer
1:14:57to to, you know, look, there's people in
1:14:59the community who say you're making this
1:15:01up, you just go, "Well, they're wrong.
1:15:04This is true."
1:15:06Yeah, you wouldn't say this is
1:15:07absolutely true. You
1:15:09maybe unless absolutely was your
1:15:11baseline. And you wouldn't go, "Well,
1:15:14you know, Mark Bowden is the last person
1:15:16to make up anything like this."
1:15:19At the moment, if I'd said that to you
1:15:22guys, "Well, Mark Bowden is the last
1:15:24person to make up anything like this."
1:15:27You'd just go, "Yeah, you're making some
1:15:30stuff up, aren't you, Mark?" And I go,
1:15:31"Yeah, I'm totally making Chase Hughes
1:15:32agrees with you. Chase Hughes.
1:15:34Heartily, too.
1:15:35Chase Hughes would be the first person
1:15:37to call me out in that in that kind of
1:15:39situation, I think. So, yeah, and and
1:15:44yeah, I agree with you, Chase. There's
1:15:45there's some there's some elements of
1:15:46disgust there around and and and
1:15:50contempt around who's calling him out on
1:15:52this. You know, I think I think he'd
1:15:54like a a better pass on this on this
1:15:57story. I think he'd like to it to be
1:15:59accepted a little bit more. No problem
1:16:01with that. Like it's a really good like
1:16:03it's an epic story. Like it's a super
1:16:05epic I I idea, um which which usually
1:16:09only gets told in films. And so, it's
1:16:12the it's a great opportunity for, you
1:16:14know, somebody to go, "Look, first
1:16:15person story. I was there. I actually
1:16:18did this. This actually happened to me."
1:16:19It's a great opportunity for a story
1:16:21like that.
1:16:22Uh
1:16:23Scott, what do you got for us?
1:16:25Here's what Scott Ross sees.
1:16:27Scott Ross
1:16:29understands that um he's ready for this
1:16:32question. I think he's ready for it.
1:16:34Because when he says, "There are people
1:16:36out there," you see those lips go into a
1:16:38short little pursing thing, which
1:16:40denotes indicates disagreement with
1:16:42what's what's happening. So, I think
1:16:43he's ready for this one. When he says,
1:16:45"At first, it really didn't bother me,"
1:16:47that's when we see the contempt two
1:16:48times. Now,
1:16:50what he should have had there was
1:16:51contempt first and then disgust because
1:16:54that's your disgust in that people in
1:16:56his community, those people would would
1:16:58think that about him. That's what I
1:16:59That's That's the way I feel about it.
1:17:01I'd be disgusted with that. That would
1:17:02So, I think it we're missing that. We're
1:17:04missing a an expression there. We see it
1:17:07two times. And um then back to chaff and
1:17:10redirect, the Hartley chaff and
1:17:12redirect. Um and it says, "I'm a badass
1:17:15resume." Telling about how he goes out
1:17:17and catches tuna and does all this stuff
1:17:19and the weather's not bad is horrible,
1:17:20but
1:17:21Giant tuna.
1:17:22That's that's your chance. Yeah. Russell
1:17:24fell for the tuna. Yeah, Scott missed
1:17:26that one. But um yeah, so he starts
1:17:29telling about what a cool guy he is, how
1:17:31it's hurricane type weather, but nah, it
1:17:32doesn't bother him, man. He can come on
1:17:34in. He Here the weather's fine out
1:17:36there. It's not bad at all. Yeah, so
1:17:37that's that's what we're seeing there is
1:17:39uh
1:17:40his resume statement there. It's just
1:17:42it's just it just continues this
1:17:45of I can't We can't cuss on here, but
1:17:47it's it's just bad. Just just same old,
1:17:51same old. Okay, we good?
1:17:54There are definitely people out there
1:17:56who would say, "This is just all made
1:18:00up."
1:18:00There's been some of that here. At
1:18:02first, it didn't really bother me. But
1:18:05then it started to bother me and I kind
1:18:08of talked to friends of mine and friends
1:18:10were reaching out to me
1:18:12and and and and just telling, "Don't
1:18:15worry about them, Michael. We know you.
1:18:17We've known you your whole life. Michael
1:18:20Packard's the last person
1:18:23to make up something like this. If
1:18:24anything, I downplay stuff. It's like,
1:18:27you know, I go out in gale force winds
1:18:30and, you know, catch giant tuna by
1:18:32myself and then I'll come in and they'll
1:18:33say, "How was the weather?"
1:18:35Uh wasn't bad. And so, the reinforcement
1:18:37that I got from the community
1:18:40really just
1:18:43made me not worry about what anybody
1:18:45else had to say. Yeah, good. Good.
1:18:48Mark Bowden is good.
1:18:49I haven't watched eight at all, so. So,
1:18:51what would you say to all those people
1:18:52around the world who might doubt your
1:18:54story then? I I don't know.
1:18:58Come and meet me.
1:19:00Take my hand.
1:19:03If if it worries you that much or, you
1:19:05know,
1:19:07Diving's my life. Fishing's my life. I
1:19:09mean,
1:19:10I I I
1:19:12Here I haven't I haven't fished in 2
1:19:14weeks now and and I'm going out of my
1:19:16mind. Physically, I'm pretty good
1:19:18besides my knee and I I plan on getting
1:19:20in the water next week.
1:19:22You're joking. No, and my wife's not
1:19:24happy about it.
1:19:26I'll go first. I'll go first.
1:19:28Okay. All right. Uh Greg, what do you
1:19:30got?
1:19:31Chaff and redirect. I'm done. I'm out.
1:19:36Chase, what do you got?
1:19:38We need to start putting more than one
1:19:40of those on the bingo card.
1:19:42Yeah, just one isn't enough.
1:19:46So, there's an immediate rise in vocal
1:19:48pitch here, which is indicative of
1:19:49stress.
1:19:51There's a shoulder shrug, both of them
1:19:54go up, which is we tend to do this as an
1:19:56apology, if we're sorry about something,
1:19:58we don't feel good about something, our
1:20:00shoulders go up.
1:20:02And we we can dig into that all day.
1:20:05But
1:20:06we see his body physically shrinking.
1:20:09And we see lip retraction, which is more
1:20:12of the body getting smaller. And anytime
1:20:15a a pencil, a tip of a pen, a
1:20:18woman putting her hair in her mouth, a
1:20:20finger, is typically a need for
1:20:23reassurance.
1:20:25And then after lip retraction, we see
1:20:27lip licking.
1:20:28And there's more sternocleidomastoid
1:20:31muscle at uh plan on getting in the
1:20:34water next week. We see this
1:20:36fear response when he's talking about
1:20:38that. Uh mostly because
1:20:41maybe it's because of his wife.
1:20:44But please keep in mind, no matter what
1:20:46we think about this video, this could
1:20:48have happened. This could have happened.
1:20:52And
1:20:53keep in mind, what you're seeing here is
1:20:54like 8% of our skill set when when the
1:20:58rest of it, the other
1:21:0092% is in questioning techniques and how
1:21:04we're moving our behavior and when we
1:21:06smile and when we lean back and forward
1:21:08during this interview and and what we
1:21:10ask and what we don't ask. So, obviously
1:21:13we can't be definitive here, so uh
1:21:16we can make assumptions, absolutely,
1:21:19which is what you're here for. Maybe
1:21:20maybe not.
1:21:22Uh Scott, okay, it's you. Okay.
1:21:25Here's what Scott thinks.
1:21:27Um this I Yeah, Greg, you're right. It's
1:21:30all chaff and redirect. And he's trying
1:21:32and just like when somebody's stealing
1:21:33stuff something from a store, they get
1:21:35ready to do something, they start making
1:21:36themselves smaller. This guy's right in
1:21:38the middle of it and he and and this is
1:21:40they've pinpointed down to are you
1:21:42telling the truth or not? You know, what
1:21:44do you think about that? And he's
1:21:45saying, "I don't know.
1:21:47I I don't know." Like a kid. This he
1:21:49goes back to being a child again. This
1:21:51this is so far removed from his from the
1:21:54baseline we saw in the other video,
1:21:56which we're going to see in a second.
1:21:57Ridiculous. This this is
1:22:00And and I agree with you, Chase. It
1:22:01could have happened, but it didn't
1:22:03happen.
1:22:04It didn't happen. I mean, everything
1:22:06I've got, I would bet that little dog I
1:22:08Hattie, I'd bet everything on on on that
1:22:11it didn't happen. I'll tell you what I
1:22:12think happened in a minute. Mark, what
1:22:14do you got? Oh, you Did you already go?
1:22:16You didn't go.
1:22:16No, no. No, no. Nothing. Yeah.
1:22:19Uh okay. Um so so I think the best I can
1:22:21do here is is help make it a better
1:22:24story, okay? So, here's what would
1:22:26happen in a in a better story cuz
1:22:28essentially the story he's telling is
1:22:29the journey and return where somebody
1:22:31journeys out into the abyss. They they
1:22:34are defrocked of their their profession,
1:22:36everything that gave them status, and
1:22:39they come out knowing who they truly
1:22:42are. And that's the real gold, not the
1:22:43lobster. The real gold is who they come
1:22:46back as and that knowledge that they
1:22:48then bring back to the town, the
1:22:50village, the family. But the unfortunate
1:22:53thing is when you bring back that new
1:22:55knowledge, you don't really fit in
1:22:57anymore. So, for example, Bilbo and, you
1:23:00know, can't stay in the in the town
1:23:03anymore. Just doesn't fit in anymore.
1:23:06So, here's what happens in this guy's
1:23:08archetypal belly of a whale story. He
1:23:10starts in a fisherman and he ends a
1:23:12fisherman. It's like nothing changes.
1:23:15And that's the problem with this as a
1:23:17really good grand narrative. This is
1:23:18where he now needs to move this story is
1:23:22he can't go, "Hey, I'm just getting back
1:23:24in the water next week. I'm I love
1:23:26fishing." He needs to come back somebody
1:23:29completely different, utterly changed
1:23:34by this. And and so that's why this
1:23:37story I don't think is as it doesn't
1:23:41leave us as satiated
1:23:44as it kind of projects that it should uh
1:23:48at the start. I think that's partly why
1:23:50we got this interviewer there who's
1:23:53really trying to boost this thing up
1:23:55because I think the the channel know
1:23:58this doesn't really pay off as well as
1:24:01it could and it needs the story needs a
1:24:03bit of a rework. Like if this was
1:24:05Hollywood, we'd have a whole bunch of
1:24:07writers who really know how to write
1:24:09this stuff who go, "Nah, nah, nah. You
1:24:10don't know. You know, sorry. You
1:24:13you you leave your wife at the end of
1:24:14this. You just don't fit in anymore."
1:24:16Yeah, it's just I mean, it's it's tragic
1:24:18that element, but you know, what you do
1:24:20is you give them the gift of the
1:24:21knowledge that came from being in the
1:24:23belly of a whale. Anyway, so it's a bit
1:24:26unsatisfying as a as a as a great story
1:24:30in the end. You know, the only last
1:24:32thing I would say is like, "Well, you
1:24:33know, why are we interested in these in
1:24:35these stories, whether it's I got bitten
1:24:36by a dog or wrestled a bear or or or
1:24:39got, you know, eaten by a by a whale?"
1:24:42Well, great stories and I and I hope
1:24:45you're getting this from all of these
1:24:47stories that you see on our on our
1:24:49channel and that that you watch is that
1:24:51great stories
1:24:54they they
1:24:56well, they don't make you any less
1:24:58afraid, they make you braver. So, none
1:25:01of these stories are meant to make you
1:25:03go, "Hey, I shouldn't fear a whale at
1:25:06all." No, it it's meant to go, "Well, I
1:25:08should get back in the water. I should
1:25:11get in the water because I've been
1:25:14forearmed with a little bit of knowledge
1:25:17around this." And unfortunately, he
1:25:19doesn't really come back with the
1:25:20knowledge around how to manage these
1:25:23kind of situations. It really is for me
1:25:26just a projection of or a a sublimation
1:25:30of the trauma that he went
1:25:33through. I'd love to see it turned into
1:25:35a Hollywood film.
1:25:37It'd be really it'd be really, you know,
1:25:38with more writers, it'd be really
1:25:40fantastic,
1:25:41I think.
1:25:43People carry on okay. Subplots.
1:25:46So, what would you say to all those
1:25:47people around the world who might doubt
1:25:49your story then? I I don't know.
1:25:53Come and meet me.
1:25:55Take my hand.
1:25:58If if it worries you that much or, you
1:26:00know,
1:26:02diving's my life, fishing's my life. I
1:26:04mean,
1:26:05I I I
1:26:07Here I haven't I haven't fished in 2
1:26:09weeks now and and I'm going out of my
1:26:11mind. Physically, I'm pretty good
1:26:13besides my knee and I plan on getting in
1:26:15the water next week.
1:26:17You're joking. No, and my wife's not
1:26:19happy about it.
1:26:21Now, let's go around and let's tell what
1:26:23we think happened in this thing really.
1:26:25What is it go? I'll go first, Mark,
1:26:27Chase, and Greg. So, here's what I think
1:26:29happened. I think because I watched the
1:26:32I watched the whole interview of this
1:26:34and his friend who was on the boat that
1:26:35he was on said he saw him come flying
1:26:37out of the water, his feet were up in
1:26:39the air, and he left the water. He never
1:26:41says this.
1:26:43I think what happened to him is I think
1:26:45the whale just hit him with his tail and
1:26:46knocked him up out of the water. And
1:26:48then he came up with his By the time he
1:26:49swam and back to the boat, all freaked
1:26:51out, he came up with the story and said,
1:26:52"Yeah, man, I got swallowed by a whale."
1:26:55That's what I think happened. I think
1:26:56he's a good storyteller cuz he's been
1:26:58telling stories since he was a little
1:26:59kid. I think he's full of it and he's
1:27:02good at being at at telling stories like
1:27:04that because he is full of it. So,
1:27:06that's what I think happened. I think he
1:27:07got hit by the whale. That happened, but
1:27:09I don't think any other stuff happened.
1:27:11I don't think any of it happened except
1:27:13for getting hit by the whale. Mark?
1:27:15Yeah, I think the same. I think it was
1:27:16probably a a shocking brush with a
1:27:19flipping great fish and not a fish,
1:27:21mammal, obviously. You know that, I know
1:27:23that. But but you know, a a shocking
1:27:26brush and and during that process
1:27:31uh that other life and death story came
1:27:34up in his mind and he projected that
1:27:36onto this and he and he started telling
1:27:40that and then he can't go back on it.
1:27:44And actually, it's it's a lot of fun. I
1:27:46mean, he's already been on television
1:27:47once doing this kind of thing.
1:27:51Um it can be quite fun being on on TV.
1:27:54And so, he quite enjoys that and I think
1:27:56his end thing is they're like, "I've
1:27:57done a couple of weeks of this, so I'm
1:27:59going to go back to being a fisherman."
1:28:01Now, once a fisherman, always a
1:28:03fisherman.
1:28:04So, I think that's what happened.
1:28:06Chase, what do you think?
1:28:08I totally agree with you guys. This This
1:28:10reminds me of a Seinfeld episode
1:28:13where George Costanza removes a golf
1:28:15ball from the blowhole of a whale that's
1:28:18beached.
1:28:19And this really
1:28:21pretty girl that he likes sees him do
1:28:22it. So, he pretends to be a marine
1:28:25biologist.
1:28:27And at that point, he can't go back.
1:28:30He's got to continue to invent new stuff
1:28:34and it has to do with a whale.
1:28:37Uh so, yeah, I I agree with y'all.
1:28:39And Greg?
1:28:41Yeah, the guy's got a remarkable life
1:28:43story. I lived through a plane crash in
1:28:45Costa Rica in the jungle. That's a
1:28:47that's a pretty amazing story. And we
1:28:49heard him tell that story and we could
1:28:51see he's a storyteller. I think
1:28:52something happened. I don't know. Did he
1:28:54get grabbed, taken down a little bit,
1:28:56and punch out, and come flying out? Did
1:28:58he get Who knows? I think there's some
1:29:00encounter with that whale that day. And
1:29:02I think he's embellished. That's one of
1:29:04the ways we deceive people is by making
1:29:05the fish this big. That's what I see.
1:29:08All right.
1:29:09Well, if you like what we're doing,
1:29:11please subscribe and hit the like
1:29:12button.
1:29:13And uh
1:29:15I think that's a good one, fellas. Yeah.
1:29:17And uh Fun one, for sure. Yeah. And see
1:29:19you next time.
1:29:21See you now.
1:29:48Bobby Shad on my hands. I'm going to see
1:29:50you later.

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