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Making Marriage Work | Dr. John Gottman — Transcript

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0:04better life media america's leading
0:06source for life improvement presents
0:09dr john gottman
0:15making marriage work
0:19[Music]
0:21[Applause]
0:25thank you
0:26thank you very much
0:28now why should you listen to me
0:30uh first of all let me just uh tell you
0:33that i'm not a relationship guru
0:36i'm not like those people on afternoon
0:38television
0:39and the only thing i have to offer is
0:41that i'm an expert in how to do research
0:44on relationships and i've studied uh
0:46over 3 000 couples
0:48over the last 32 years you know couples
0:50very much like yourselves
0:52and uh and what i've tried to do is find
0:54out what it is they do to make their
0:56relationships work and we've also
0:58studied gay and lesbian couples as well
1:00as heterosexual couples for a very long
1:02time and i've done this work with my
1:05friend bob levinson who's a professor at
1:07the university of california berkeley
1:09and it's our 30th anniversary actually
1:11this year of working together and what
1:14we really brought to this whole area was
1:17profound ignorance because we really
1:19didn't have a clue about what made
1:21relationships work when we started doing
1:23this research 30 years ago and so we did
1:26is we made videotapes of couples doing
1:29ordinary things like talking about how
1:31their day went and talking about an area
1:34of conflict continuing disagreement and
1:36at the university of washington i built
1:38an apartment laboratory that was kind of
1:40like a bed and breakfast getaway in
1:42which uh we had couples just hang out
1:44for 24 hours and it was a beautiful
1:47picture window there and boats going by
1:50and uh and you know people just sort of
1:53listen to the music they want to listen
1:54to watch television brought newspapers
1:57to read and did whatever they wanted to
1:59do and the only difference between that
2:01setting and an ordinary bed and
2:03breakfast was that we had four cameras
2:05bolted to the wall
2:06and they wore halter monitors that
2:09measured two channels of
2:10electrocardiogram and when they urinated
2:12we took a urine sample to measure stress
2:14hormones
2:15in their urine and we took blood from
2:17them
2:18to measure how their immune system was
2:20functioning and there were people in the
2:22other room recording their facial
2:24expressions of emotion but aside from
2:26that it was like an ordinary bed and
2:27breakfast getaway
2:29and
2:30we found you know what we basically did
2:32was study you know representative
2:34samples of couples and we started with
2:37newlyweds in one study for example we're
2:38now in the 13th year of studying those
2:41couples as they had kids we studied them
2:44in pregnancy and as their their babies
2:46developed and then we studied kids who
2:49we studied families who were
2:52in midlife who had young kids couples in
2:54their 40s couples in their 60s all the
2:57way through retirement our current study
2:59is about 20 years we follow couples so
3:02we didn't know if there were good
3:03relationships or bad relationships when
3:05we started and we found out that over
3:08time some of them some of the
3:10relationships broke up
3:12and some of them fell apart some of them
3:15stayed together and were really unhappy
3:16with one another and others you know
3:18kind of more or less liked each other
3:20over time and the relationships got
3:22better and better and they were pretty
3:24happy and we called that last group the
3:27masters of relationships and the other
3:29group the disasters the ones whose
3:31relationships fell apart or stayed
3:33together and weren't happy and what we
3:35tried to find out was was there anything
3:37different about the masters and the
3:40disasters is there anything we could
3:41figure out about it and we were very
3:43surprised
3:45to find out that we could predict which
3:48couples would stay together and which
3:50ones would get a divorce with over 90
3:53accuracy
3:55and you know you don't find that kind of
3:56prediction in psychology very often
3:58usually we can't predict people's
4:00behavior at all
4:02but here in relationships we're able to
4:04predict with enormous accuracy what
4:06would happen to a relationship in fact
4:08in just 15 minutes of a couple talking
4:11about an area of continuing disagreement
4:13we could predict with 85 percent
4:15accuracy whether they get divorced
4:18and not only that
4:19after following couples for 14 years we
4:22could not only predict if they would get
4:23divorced but when they would get
4:24divorced as well
4:26so i want to tell you about that
4:28research and what we discovered from
4:30this and how we put it all together in
4:32kind of a theory about what makes
4:34relationships work and what the
4:36principles are for making them uh
4:39making them get better and better and
4:40also turning around ones that are really
4:42unhappy
4:43now this ability to predict divorce
4:45with very high accuracy or happiness
4:48with very high accuracy hasn't done a
4:50lot for my personal life i don't get
4:52invited out to dinner very much for
4:54example you know
4:55very few couples want to know if their
4:57relationship is going to work or not
5:00and in the middle of a fight my wife is
5:01very likely to say to me if they could
5:03see you now no
5:06so but we try to use the principles my
5:08wife and i we try to figure out you know
5:10what how we can make our relationship
5:11better and in fact uh we do a workshop
5:14in seattle where the second day
5:17uh every time we do the workshop my wife
5:19and i talk about a fight we just had
5:22and we're never at a loss we always have
5:24a fight to talk about and we do this in
5:26front of 150 couples uh and so you know
5:30part of what i want to tell you is that
5:32what we've learned in studying good
5:33relationships as well as the disasters
5:37is that we're all really in the same
5:38soup
5:39so let me start by talking about what it
5:42is we learned that allows us to predict
5:45divorce or stability with very high
5:47accuracy the first thing we found was
5:50that
5:51if you take a look at the ratio of
5:54positive stuff
5:55during conflict things like interest
5:58asking questions being nice to one
6:00another being kind being affectionate
6:02being empathetic and you look at all the
6:05negative stuff like criticism hostility
6:08anger uh hurt feelings and you take the
6:11ratio of positive to negative
6:14in relationships that stay together that
6:16ratio turns out to be five to one
6:20there's five times as many positive
6:22things going on in relationships that
6:24work
6:24as negative
6:26so that's an interesting equation and it
6:28sort of suggests that if you do
6:30something negative to hurt your
6:32partner's feelings you know that you
6:34have to make up for it with five
6:37positive things so the equation is not
6:39balanced in terms of positive and
6:41negative negative has a lot more ability
6:44to inflict pain and damage than positive
6:47things have to heal and bring you closer
6:50now the couples who wound up divorced
6:52that ratio was point eight to one so
6:55there was a little more negativity than
6:57positivity in couples who were heading
6:59for divorce
7:00so first of all uh for a relationship to
7:03feel right it has to be a very rich
7:06climate of affection and humor and fun
7:09and intimacy and empathy now in the
7:12apartment lab that i mentioned that
7:13ratio is more like 20 to 1 rather than 5
7:16to 1 right so when you're just hanging
7:19out it really needs to be an enormously
7:21rich climate of positive stuff
7:24interestingly enough you might think
7:26that from that finding what you want to
7:28do is if you're a therapist you want to
7:30declare war on negativity and eliminate
7:33all anger
7:34sadness hurt feelings from relationships
7:37and that's not true turns out negativity
7:39is actually very productive in
7:41relationships because hurt feelings and
7:44negativity wind up for one thing
7:47calling out stuff that doesn't work in
7:48relationships right you hurt your
7:50partner's feelings you learn something
7:51right and you talk about how to make it
7:53better next time so you don't want a
7:56relationship where there's nothing
7:57negative going on the other thing is it
7:59wouldn't be very real if there wasn't
8:02sadness disappointment you know and
8:04there's kind of a cycle of getting
8:06closer and drawing apart
8:08that happens in relationships after a
8:10fight people are distant for a while
8:12and then they get closer together so
8:14that in fact in relationships as a
8:16result of negativity there's a need to
8:19continually renew courtship
8:21in relationships and so that's the
8:24importance of that finding about
8:25negativity and not declaring war and
8:27negativity you don't want to get rid of
8:29anger you don't want to get rid of
8:30sadness you know that's kind of our
8:33inheritance when we have a close
8:34relationship we get all the emotions
8:37now the next thing that bob and i wanted
8:39to know is are all negative things
8:42equally corrosive are there some things
8:45that really are a lot more negative than
8:46others and in fact there are and i wound
8:49up calling those things the four
8:51horsemen of the apocalypse and because
8:53there were four things
8:55that really were very predictive of
8:57divorce
8:58and they were characteristic of the
8:59disasters
9:00and very different from the masters the
9:03masters are dealing with conflict in
9:05this way it's kind of like if i was
9:07holding imagine i was holding an
9:09invisible soccer ball right here okay
9:12and this soccer ball represents our
9:14problem and my wife and i are kicking
9:15this ball around
9:17and that's the way the masters deal with
9:19things now the disasters from the
9:21beginning try to put that ball in their
9:24partner's body and they're really saying
9:26you're the problem right so the first
9:29horseman of the apocalypse is what we
9:31call criticism
9:32and criticism is a way of complaining
9:35that suggests that your partner's
9:37personality is defective
9:40okay
9:40and now
9:42what are the masters doing the masters
9:44are still complaining right but they're
9:46talking about themselves
9:48talking about their feelings and what
9:50they need
9:51so let's say for example i complain
9:54and i want to complain the way you know
9:56a really great relationship would
9:57complain i might say to my wife
9:59something like you know you talked about
10:01yourself all through dinner you never
10:03asked me anything about my day
10:05and that hurt my feelings i really need
10:06you to ask me about my day
10:08okay so there i'm talking about myself
10:11what i feel and what i need right
10:14now the disasters would try to make that
10:17just a symptom
10:18of my wife's defect and i would say to
10:21my wife something like
10:23you know you talked about yourself
10:24during dinner you never asked me
10:25anything about my day
10:27what is wrong with you
10:30this is a great question right what is
10:32wrong with you does anybody ever answer
10:33that question hey i'm glad you asked
10:35that let me take a look and see what's
10:37wrong you know
10:38it's not really a question right now the
10:40second horseman of the apocalypse kind
10:42of follows from the first because if you
10:44feel criticized you're going to be
10:46feeling attacked and you're going to be
10:48warding off this attack right and that's
10:50defensiveness the second horseman of the
10:53apocalypse and we found there are two
10:55ways of becoming defensive that are most
10:57common in couples the first is righteous
10:59indignation and in righteous indignation
11:02what you're doing is meeting a complaint
11:04with a counter complaint the second way
11:07of being defensive is i can act like an
11:09innocent victim
11:10and the most common way people act like
11:12an innocent victim is they whine
11:15i cared about your day i really did i
11:18was really interested in your day
11:20now what's the
11:21what's the opposite what's the
11:22constructive alternative what do the
11:24masters do instead of get defensive it's
11:27very simple
11:28they accept responsibility even for a
11:31small part of the problem so she says to
11:33me all through dinner you talked about
11:35yourself you never asked me about my day
11:38i can say god good point you know i
11:41really was stressed out you know during
11:43dinner and the drive home was awful i
11:46had a rotten day i don't think i was
11:47listening to anybody you know
11:49whole day and you're right i probably
11:51wasn't listening to you so
11:54how was your day
11:55now the third horseman is our best
11:57predictor of divorce and it is
12:00disrespect and contempt
12:03now contempt is a little bit different
12:05than criticism because in contempt
12:07you feel superior to your partner you're
12:09speaking from a higher plane kind of
12:11like i'm on this podium and i'm talking
12:13down well if you do that to your partner
12:16you feel let's say you feel cleaner than
12:18your partner or more punctual or tidier
12:21or smarter than your partner then you're
12:23going to kind of talk down to your
12:24partner and the comment that will come
12:26out will be this kind of snobby
12:29contemptuous comment right now how do
12:31people get contemptuous the most common
12:33way they do that is by calling their
12:36partner names or directly insulting them
12:39and you know so you can say you know
12:42what a jerk
12:43you only talk about yourself
12:45now we would like our partners to
12:46respond to us by saying something like
12:49john
12:51that's brilliant you're such an
12:52observant person you know thank you for
12:55pointing out all the ways in which i'm
12:56failing as a human being can we have
12:59lunch next week so you can tell me more
13:01you know but unfortunately people don't
13:03respond that way right they really wind
13:05up getting hurt in fact contempt is our
13:08single best predictor of divorce now
13:11what is it that the masters are doing
13:13that's the alternative for contempt
13:15what is the opposite of disrespect
13:18it is not doing nothing it is really
13:21respect
13:23and being proud of the people we love
13:25and what the masters are doing is
13:27creating in the relationship a culture
13:29of appreciation they're saying thank you
13:32for very small things that their
13:33partners are doing thanks for picking up
13:35the laundry i enjoyed the conversation
13:37at dinner
13:38i watched you playing with the baby last
13:40night and it was really beautiful
13:42we had that teacher conference and you
13:44know that teacher really intimidates me
13:46you've got a lot of guts so it's
13:48communicating not only affection but
13:51respect right that's the culture of
13:53appreciation now how do you build that
13:56and what the way you build it is you
13:58start really creating a different habit
14:00of mind a habit of mind where instead of
14:03scanning the environment for things to
14:05criticize and put down and make yourself
14:07superior through putting down other
14:09people you scan the environment for
14:12things you can praise and appreciate and
14:14this is as important in
14:16uh in love relationships as it is in
14:18parent-child relationships looking for
14:20stuff you can appreciate catch your
14:22partner doing something right
14:24now the fourth horseman of the
14:25apocalypse we call stonewalling
14:28and here's what stonewalling is it's
14:30really emotional withdrawal from
14:32conflict and here's the way we actually
14:35measure it in our laboratory usually
14:37when a when a listener is
14:40listening to somebody talk
14:41they actually give the speaker a lot of
14:44signals that they are tracking that
14:45they're that they're there not
14:47necessarily agreeing they maintain
14:49they're sort of an open body they
14:51maintain eye contact nod their heads
14:55they utter these brief vocalization oh
14:57yeah huh they move their faces oh yeah
15:00could be oh yeah sure
15:02and so all of these signals are coming
15:03out the stonewaller doesn't do that
15:05maybe foal's arms are kimbo like that
15:08looks down and away
15:10there's no facial movement
15:12there's no vocalization there may be an
15:15occasional glance at the speaker just to
15:17see if the ogre has magically
15:19disappeared
15:21that's stonewalling now
15:23what does stonewalling do
15:25you know what it does is that the
15:27speaker doesn't think he or she is
15:29getting through right so instead of
15:31getting out the 40-pound cannon
15:33when they're stonewalling the speaker
15:35gets out the 60-pound cannon boom you
15:38know let's really have an impact right
15:41so those are the four horsemen of the
15:42apocalypse and they allow us to predict
15:45with high accuracy what's going to
15:46happen to a relationship
15:48but you know that's kind of like
15:51the recipe for failure right and the
15:54recipe the alternative recipe for
15:56constructive conflict resolution is
15:59interesting and useful in some way but
16:02it doesn't give you enough information
16:04about what it is that
16:06the in good relationships is really
16:08happening to maintain that intimacy in
16:11the relationship and here's what we
16:12discovered about that from looking at
16:14the apartment lab we actually came out
16:17with a number of principles that really
16:20could be useful in building a
16:22relationship so let me tell you about
16:23these principles
16:25the first thing that we found was that
16:26in good relationships friendship is
16:29extremely important it's not just about
16:31conflict and how you deal with conflict
16:33it's about intimacy and maintaining
16:36intimacy now the cool thing about being
16:38a researcher is you cannot just talk
16:41about things in vague terms you have to
16:43really measure stuff and so you have to
16:45be really precise about the advice you
16:47give
16:48and what we found was there were three
16:50ingredients to friendship and that's all
16:52you needed to do was work on those three
16:54things and you could you could have an
16:56intimate friendship in your relationship
16:58and here's what the three things are
17:00first first thing was to enhance what we
17:02call your love maps now what's a love
17:04map
17:06it's an internal road map that you make
17:09up that you have in your mind about your
17:11partner's inner world inner
17:13psychological world so this is the whole
17:15dimension of being known a feeling like
17:18your partner is really interested in
17:19knowing you
17:20and
17:21of feeling like you know you want to
17:24know your partner so it's about interest
17:25in one another right and it's about
17:28knowing like you know who are the main
17:30people in your in your partner's world
17:32uh what's stressing your partner out
17:34what's exciting
17:36what are some of your partner's dreams
17:37and hopes and aspirations and values
17:40right now how do you find that
17:42information out
17:43asking questions
17:45so the fundamental process is really
17:47asking questions now not questions like
17:50did the plumber come right but
17:52open-ended questions like
17:54how are you feeling about being a mother
17:55right now
17:58how do you like this house do you want
18:00to change it
18:02how are you thinking about your job
18:04right now
18:05have you changed
18:07how would you like our life to be in the
18:08next five years those kinds of questions
18:11they help build the love map
18:13now the cool thing about this is some
18:16people make these love maps naturally
18:18and some people just don't do it
18:20so when you talk to people who don't
18:21make love maps
18:22and you tell them about how important it
18:24is they go
18:26okay
18:27so how do i do that and if you show them
18:29how to do it then they go
18:31okay i'll do it
18:32now if you want to really try changing
18:34your life in the area of relationships
18:36in the next two weeks
18:38try
18:38making 50 of the things you say to
18:41people a question an open-ended question
18:44instead of making statements to people
18:46ask them questions and you'll find that
18:48people really change because people
18:50rarely ask questions it's a very very
18:52fundamental thing to do and yet it's a
18:54very rare thing people mostly make
18:56statements and broadcast rather than
18:58saying what do you think about this
19:00asking those kinds of questions
19:02so love maps is the first ingredient of
19:04friendship the second one is what we
19:06call fondness and admiration and i
19:08mentioned that in the culture of
19:09appreciation it's really about
19:11communicating
19:12affection
19:14and respect in very small ways and
19:17that's what the masters are doing
19:18they're creating this culture of
19:20appreciation in very tiny ways they're
19:22saying thank you i'm proud of you
19:25i really admire you i respect you and
19:28they're doing it often now
19:30let me tell you about a couple that we
19:32saw and this guy you know was
19:35very successful in his career and he ran
19:38an intensive care unit for for babies in
19:41a major hospital in los angeles and he
19:44and his wife had been married for 17
19:46years and i talked to him about the very
19:48first date he had with his wife
19:50and he said god you know i was thinking
19:53that first date that of all the women
19:56i'd ever met she was the most vivacious
19:59most exciting the most beautiful the
20:02most intelligent woman i'd ever met i
20:04went wow now there's a fondness and
20:06admiration system right now the next
20:09thing i wanted to know is did his wife
20:11know this
20:12that he was thinking this on the first
20:13date in fact in 17 years had he ever
20:16told her that he thought this about her
20:18and so i i asked her i said did you know
20:20this she said i never had a clue
20:23so what's the fundamental thing in
20:24fondness and admiration it can't stay in
20:26the brain it's got to come out the mouth
20:29right so that's really what the masters
20:31are doing in very small ways they're
20:34saying thank you i mean even for trivial
20:36things thanks for doing the dishes you
20:38know even if it's that person's turn to
20:40do the dishes right a lot of couples say
20:43well why should i say thank you i just
20:45do stuff he does stuff why should we say
20:48thank you to each other i don't get much
20:49appreciation and i always say
20:52do you like that do you like feeling
20:54unappreciated no
20:56well do you both feel unappreciated yes
20:59okay so that's to express appreciation
21:02it's not very complicated it's very
21:04simple and it helps this habit of mine
21:07right where you're scanning the
21:08environment for things to appreciate so
21:10that's love maps fondness and admiration
21:13right respect and affection the third is
21:16something we learned from the apartment
21:17lab is that when people are just hanging
21:20out
21:21the way they build intimacy is in very
21:23tiny moments they make little bids
21:27bids
21:28for emotional connection
21:30now it's at the lowest level they're
21:32making bids for their partner's
21:34attention you know like for example you
21:37know i can look out the window of the
21:39apartment lab where boats were going by
21:41and i can say
21:42well there's a pretty boat
21:44okay now let's say that my wife says
21:46that and i'm cleaning my glasses right
21:48and she says there's a pretty boat
21:52no response
21:54we call that turning away
21:57right sometimes
21:59somebody be cleaning their glasses
22:01here's a pretty boat
22:03huh
22:05now that's a pretty minimal response
22:07right but it's turning toward it's some
22:10response sometimes people would turn
22:12toward a bid in a very enthusiastic way
22:15like there's a pretty boat
22:17wow that is a pretty boat
22:20you know say did you ever think
22:22why don't we quit our jobs like and get
22:24a boat like that and just kind of sail
22:26off together
22:27so we call that an enthusiastic turning
22:29toward right rather than just you know a
22:32turning tord without enthusiasm
22:34and what we found was very interesting
22:36that what happens if i make a bid for
22:40just her attention and she turns away
22:42she doesn't respond at all
22:44you know what are the chances i say hey
22:46there's a pretty boat no response i'm
22:49gonna say
22:50hey julie i said there's a pretty boat
22:52you know the probability of rebidding is
22:56almost zero in all relationships
22:58it actually is zero in the couples the
23:01newlyweds that wound up divorcing six
23:03years later and .22 22 probability in
23:07couples that stayed together still very
23:09low right and in fact on the videotape
23:12what you see is if people
23:14partners turn away they kind of crumple
23:16a little bit you know and they do some
23:18face saving things like straightening up
23:20or petting the cat you know or something
23:22like that but they don't re-bid that
23:24lack of connection
23:25is really painful and we started
23:27realizing that in these very tiny
23:29moments of emotional connection people
23:32are building kind of an emotional bank
23:34account in the relationship they're
23:36building up points in their relationship
23:39that builds emotional connection okay
23:41those are the three components of
23:42intimacy
23:43making a love map right and updating it
23:46periodically by asking questions
23:48fondness and admiration and turning
23:50toward okay now
23:52when those three things are working then
23:55it turns out people are in a state of
23:57mind that we call
23:59positive
24:00sentiment override now that's a fancy
24:03term but it means that my positive
24:05sentiment for my wife and the
24:07relationship overrides momentary times
24:11when she's irritable or we're feeling a
24:13little distant but if those three parts
24:16of a friendship are not working very
24:18well love maps fondness and admiration
24:21and turning toward then i'll be a
24:22negative sentiment override and that
24:24means i've got a chip on my shoulder
24:26right
24:27i mean if i'm in negative sentiment
24:29override
24:30she can come down one morning to the
24:32kitchen and say
24:34in a very sweet way
24:36you know honey you're not supposed to
24:38run the microwave when there's no food
24:39in it
24:40and if i got that chip on my shoulder
24:42i'm gonna say don't you tell me how to
24:44run the microwave i'm the one who reads
24:46the manuals around here you're not going
24:48to control and manipulate me
24:50see i've got a chip on my shoulder i'm
24:52hyper vigilant for put downs i'm in a
24:55negative state and you know you can't
24:57tell me to not be so sensitive about the
25:00relationship you know to lighten up
25:02not take it so personally just you can't
25:05tell me well she said it in a sweet way
25:07i can't get out of negative sentiment
25:09override right so research studies that
25:12have tried to change people's cognitive
25:14style about the relationship fail
25:17and they fail for good reason because
25:19love maps aren't working fondness and
25:21admiration and turning toward aren't
25:23working that's why i got why i got that
25:25chip on my shoulder right but if they're
25:27working i'm in positive sentiment
25:29override she can say
25:31in a very irritable way
25:33hey you're not supposed to run the
25:34microwave but there's no food
25:37and if i'm in positive sentiment
25:39override i'll say okay
25:42i'm not taking that personally right
25:44you know i'm seeing that as maybe she's
25:46stressed out i'm thinking
25:48this lady's very involved in the
25:50microwave today i don't know why you
25:51know but uh not gonna ask her now you
25:54know uh but you know basically you know
25:57it's a buffer positive sentiment
25:58override is a buffer against
26:00irritability and emotional distance and
26:02that brings me to conflict because what
26:05the masters are doing during conflict is
26:07they're really able to repair the the
26:10conflict
26:11when it's not going well it's hard to
26:14change people's behavior when they're
26:15fighting
26:17you know it's very easy to get defensive
26:19you know if you feel attacked it's very
26:21easy to become critical if you're upset
26:23particularly if you put off your
26:25complaints for a long time
26:27so everybody does that
26:29but the masters can repair
26:32they can have a recovery conversation
26:34and in fact this dimension of repair is
26:36one of the most central dimensions about
26:38making relationships work well over time
26:41everybody messes up everybody gets
26:44defensive
26:45everybody gets critical at times
26:46insulting you know these things happen
26:49but the ability to really step back when
26:51you're calmed down and say
26:54i'm sorry
26:55you know that didn't go very well um
26:58can we talk about it and have that
27:00recovery conversation that's something
27:02that the masters can do not only that
27:04but the one thing we found about the
27:06masters that was so interesting was that
27:08they had a sense of humor during
27:10conflict so how do you get people have a
27:12sense of humor turns out that if you
27:16build love maps and fondness and
27:18admiration and turning toward and we've
27:20done this experiment
27:22then people's sense of humor increases
27:24even during conflict and they can repair
27:27and they can be affectionate during
27:28conflict so friendship is the basis of
27:31regulating conflict that's pretty
27:32interesting because you can change
27:34people's behavior in these very neutral
27:37moments these tiny moments like in the
27:39apartment lab when they're just hanging
27:40out it's not very emotional it's not a
27:42big deal and all you have to do is build
27:45awareness of these bids and the
27:47importance of turning toward what we
27:49didn't expect and this was a big
27:51surprise
27:52is that not only are these three
27:54ingredients of friendship the basis
27:57for
27:57dealing with conflict in a constructive
27:59manner having a sense of humor and
28:02affection during
28:03times when you disagree
28:05but they're also the basis of good sex
28:08romance and passion
28:09in the relationship now let me try to
28:11convince you of that that that makes
28:12sense
28:14i have a book that is called 1001 ways
28:17to be romantic it's kind of an
28:19interesting book has a lot of really
28:21great suggestions like you know some are
28:23addressed to husbands some are dressed
28:25to wives you know and like one says
28:27don't send your wife a dozen roses send
28:30her a rose a day for 12 days
28:32kind of cool idea you know write a note
28:35with each rose kind of nice
28:38well let's look at number 24 which turns
28:41out to be
28:42again addressed the guys and it says
28:45what could be more romantic than sending
28:47your wife a golden locket
28:50giving your wife a golden locket with
28:52your picture in it
28:54okay let's think about that
28:56love maps fondness and admiration and
28:58turning toward let's say love maps i
29:00haven't asked my wife a question in 17
29:02years
29:04fondness and admiration we were out to
29:06dinner a couple of nights ago
29:08and she started telling a story and i
29:10said
29:11you're not going to tell that story
29:12nobody wants to hear that that is so
29:14stupid just shut up
29:16i said that in public okay fondness and
29:18admiration i'm i'm down two now right
29:21bids and turning uh you know i don't
29:23even notice when she makes a bid and
29:25then i give her a golden locket with my
29:28picture in it right
29:30and i ask you is that going to be a
29:31romantic event in a relationship i don't
29:33think so right she's going to drive the
29:35suv over it a couple of times really
29:37flatten out that golden locket what
29:40makes that event romantic you know if i
29:42write a poem and we go to our favorite
29:44restaurant and i toast to how beautiful
29:47her eyes are and i read my you know
29:49stupid poem that i wrote i choke up when
29:52i read it her eyes filled with tears
29:54because
29:56love maps fondness and admiration and
29:57turning toward are working in the
29:59relationship
30:00and so you really build sex
30:02and passion
30:04and romance
30:06in these very very small moments of
30:08emotional connection now we learned some
30:10surprising things about conflict as well
30:13let me tell you what we learned
30:15first of all we found that
30:17most
30:18conflicts in a marriage
30:22fact 69 of them
30:23are never solved
30:26when we study couples four years later
30:28we find mostly they're talking about the
30:30same stuff in the same way so that's
30:32kind of interesting you know if you know
30:34if it's not that changeable then you
30:37know what do you do to make a difference
30:39in relationships well
30:41by building these
30:44parts of the relationship you know that
30:46fondness and admiration and turning
30:48toward and love maps you're actually
30:50working on that relationship itself on
30:53the way conflict is dealt with in that
30:55relationship but 69 percent of the time
30:58we found that the same conflicts are
31:00perpetuated and we wound up realizing
31:03that when you pick somebody to marry you
31:05have automatically inherited your set of
31:08unresolvable relationship problems that
31:10you'll have for the next 10 20 30 40
31:13years
31:14like in my marriage for example you know
31:16my wife has to have the house incredibly
31:18neat you know and it has to look like a
31:20museum whereas i am charmingly sloppy
31:24right it's not going to change until she
31:26gets therapy
31:28and she feels the same way about me she
31:30says i'm organizationally impaired
31:33so we have this perpetual issue
31:35well most conflicts are perpetual issues
31:39now by the way if you married somebody
31:40else you wouldn't have those conflicts
31:42you'd have a different set
31:44but every relationship has these
31:46perpetual problems due to these
31:48personality differences and the fact
31:50that we are much more forgiving toward
31:52ourselves than we are toward others so
31:55we found two kinds of couples around
31:56these perpetual problems
31:58one kind really had kind of a dialogue
32:01with perpetual problems you know it's
32:02not that the perpetual problems went
32:04away it's that they had a relationship
32:06with the problems they talked about them
32:09and they figured out ways to cope
32:11and to some extent you could really say
32:13that
32:14marriage is last to the extent that
32:16you've selected somebody who's
32:18irritating qualities you can stand
32:22and where the perpetual problems are
32:23ones you can deal with whereas
32:25if they're perpetual problems that
32:27really make you nuts
32:28then that relationship is not going to
32:30work out very well
32:31and in fact in the couples that really
32:34wound up getting divorced their
32:36perpetual problems resulted in gridlock
32:38this is my visual image of gridlock two
32:40fists in opposition right no compromise
32:44every time they talk about the issue
32:46there's the four horsemen or they get
32:48emotionally disengaged they hurt each
32:50other's feelings they feel basically not
32:52accepted by their partner that's
32:54gridlock marital conflict it's like a
32:56highway where all the cars are bumper to
32:58bumper never goes anywhere it never
33:00moves anywhere it's just frustrating
33:02it's just steamy it's awful and so the
33:05major problem in making relationships
33:08work around conflict is not resolving
33:10the conflict because most conflicts
33:12don't get resolved it's moving a couple
33:14from gridlock to dialogue to where
33:17they're coping with the problem
33:19now what's the secret of that
33:21that's a really interesting question
33:23right how do you move somebody from
33:25gridlock to dialogue and what a lot of
33:28people will say if you went to the
33:29library and you know read about marital
33:32therapy or relationships between couples
33:35you know they would say well the reason
33:36these people aren't compromising about
33:37this perpetual problem they're not
33:39getting anywhere with it you know
33:41they're they're in opposition they're
33:43entrenched in their position they're
33:44polarized in their positions is because
33:47they have personality defects he's a
33:50narcissist
33:51she is borderline
33:54she's hysterical he's self-centered and
33:56unempathetic you know in all these ways
33:59of describing inadequate personalities
34:01but what we say is the opposite
34:04we say if you look at the subtext of
34:07what they're arguing about in other
34:09words look underneath what they're
34:11fighting about maybe they're arguing
34:12ostensibly about money they really
34:14disagree about spending and saving and
34:16their their philosophies about money are
34:18really very different but you actually
34:20look at what they're what they're
34:22talking about underneath that and you
34:24find that they're actually arguing about
34:27very different things than money they're
34:28arguing about basic philosophical
34:31concepts that are very close to their
34:33sense of self they're talking about
34:34freedom they're talking about power
34:37they're talking about caring and love
34:39they're talking about what a home is
34:41what it means to be a family
34:43and so
34:44what does that mean it means that
34:47within these fists
34:49if you could make the relationship safe
34:51enough and open these fists
34:53there would be a dream a life dream
34:56within each position that would fly out
34:58like a dove
35:00and the reason they're not compromising
35:02is really understandable so instead of
35:04us saying
35:06to people the reason you're not
35:07compromising is that you're arrested in
35:10an earlier stage of development you're
35:12immature you have a personality defect
35:14we say no wonder you couldn't compromise
35:18you could no more compromise on this
35:20issue then you could respond to somebody
35:22who came up to you and said excuse me
35:24can i borrow your bones
35:27you can't give people your bones right
35:29or you die and in the same way you can't
35:32give up the bones of who you are so we
35:34tell people the reason you're gridlocked
35:37is because you haven't looked at the
35:39dream within the conflict the life dream
35:42and what you need to do is become a
35:44dream catcher
35:45and release those dreams make the
35:47relationship safe enough ask questions
35:49find out what the dreams are within this
35:51each person's position
35:53and what the history of those dreams are
35:55what the life story is the narrative
35:57behind each dream
35:59and then find a way to honor both dreams
36:02and once both dreams are honored then
36:05the the greatest sources of conflict and
36:08alienation
36:10in a relationship become the greatest
36:12sources of intimacy because what are you
36:14doing you're building love maps at a
36:16deeper level right you're finding out
36:19something about
36:20meaning and purpose
36:22in people's lives
36:23now for problems that could be solved
36:26what we found was that 31 of the
36:29problems that could be solved we found
36:31actually that the masters were doing
36:32something really interesting and to
36:35summarize what they were doing in one
36:37word it was really gentleness they were
36:40presenting issues in a very gentle way
36:43and they were doing what we call
36:44softened startup instead of presenting
36:46it in a harsh way they were presenting
36:48their issue in a very gentle way and i
36:51learned a lot from this in my
36:52relationship and i found that you know a
36:54lot of times i would get really upset
36:56with my wife julie and i say to her
36:58julie you are so emotionally unavailable
37:01to me what is wrong with you
37:03and i found when i said that she did not
37:06want to spend more time with me i don't
37:08know why i was expressing my feelings
37:10very clearly but then i i watched the
37:12masters do it and you know so one day i
37:15said to her
37:16you know honey i'm getting that old
37:17feeling again of being lonely
37:20i really miss you
37:21i just need more of you in my day
37:24not only that but they expressed
37:25appreciation so i said
37:27you know a couple of weeks ago when we
37:29cuddled on the couch
37:31that was really so nice how can we do
37:32that again
37:34and she said how about now
37:36so it was the same complaint right but i
37:39softened the startup in fact rather than
37:41criticizing her i was still expressing
37:43what i needed which was more of her i
37:46was really flattering her i was really
37:48telling her how much i missed her how
37:50much i needed her how much i admired her
37:52how important she was to me and saying
37:54it very directly which was what the
37:55masters were doing the other thing we
37:57found is not only are the masters
38:00starting with general startup but
38:02they're really accepting influence from
38:04one another
38:05and in particular guys are accepting
38:07influence from women
38:09now that was very that was a very
38:11interesting thing and it emerged from
38:13studying violent relationships a study i
38:16did with neil jacobson and uh what we
38:18found was that these physically violent
38:20guys
38:21never said anything to their wives like
38:24good point
38:25i never thought of that everything they
38:27said was no
38:29you're not going to control and
38:30influence me they rejected everything
38:33they were like baseball players at
38:35batting practice you know whatever got
38:36tossed to them they hit back
38:39so we're very interested in that
38:40rejection of influence and we went
38:42looked at our newlyweds who were not
38:44violent to try to see what predicted
38:46whether they'd stay together or get
38:47divorced and we looked at women
38:49accepting influence for men men
38:51accepting influence from women
38:53and
38:54it didn't predict with women but for
38:56guys
38:57who came up to close to where the women
38:59were because the women were accepting
39:01influence in all relationships at a
39:03pretty high level the guys who were
39:04accepting influence their relationships
39:06stayed together
39:08and we're
39:09living through a period in history where
39:11women are being emancipated on an
39:14international scale in most nations and
39:17they're being empowered economically
39:19psychologically politically and after
39:21millennia of oppression and the guys who
39:24realize that this is a time to really
39:26honor women and it makes a difference to
39:29honor your wife's dreams it makes a
39:31difference to to convey that honor just
39:34for example like putting down the toilet
39:36seat after you go to the bathroom you
39:39know now it takes as much work for a
39:40woman to put it down is for a man to put
39:42it down putting it down it really
39:44conveys that you're thoughtful and that
39:47you're honoring your partner it's a
39:48small thing but the men who accept
39:50influence from their partner and say
39:52well it's a good point i never thought
39:54of that tell me more about your opinion
39:56you know let me consider that let me
39:58find out why you see things the way you
40:00see things those guys are way ahead of
40:02the game okay now not only did the
40:04masters have gentle startup and the guys
40:08accept influence but also
40:10they moved toward compromise
40:12and they were able to compromise and one
40:14of the things they did was very
40:16interesting and because we collected
40:18data on heart rate and blood flow
40:20velocity on physiology while people were
40:23interacting we found that
40:26calming down was a very very important
40:28part of this whole equation when your
40:31heart rate gets above 100 beats a minute
40:34your body starts secreting adrenaline
40:37and your arteries start constricting and
40:39blood flow shuts down to the gut in the
40:42kidney and you start sweating more blood
40:44pressure increases the kidney starts
40:47producing a substance called renin which
40:49leads to angiotensin which also
40:51increases blood volume and blood
40:53pressure all this stuff is going on well
40:55it has adaptive value when you're trying
40:57to escape from a predator you know or
41:00there's a car coming in your lane and
41:02you have to get out of the way right
41:04that's adaptive but when you're in the
41:05middle of a marital discussion this kind
41:07of physiological arousal is very
41:09maladaptive because you cannot process
41:12information very well
41:13you can't be very creative you know
41:16you're not a very good problem solver
41:17when your heart rate gets above 100
41:19beats a minute so what really has to
41:21happen is people have to calm down and
41:24take breaks and really calm themselves
41:26and self-soothe
41:28so in one study we did we actually did
41:30this trick with people we waited for
41:32their heart rate to get above 100 beats
41:34a minute and we went out and said to the
41:36couple we're having some trouble with
41:38our equipment would you stop talking
41:40about this problem until we repair it
41:42and we gave them magazines to read right
41:44now it wasn't true we actually the
41:46equipment was working we waited actually
41:48for their heart rate to go down down
41:50down down down and when it went back to
41:52baseline we came in and said okay the
41:54equipment's working now you can talk
41:55about the issue again why did we do that
41:58we wanted to see if it would be
42:00different with their discussion of the
42:02problem would be different when their
42:03heart rates were low than when they were
42:05high i can tell you for for the most
42:07part it was like a different
42:09relationship
42:10when the heart rate was low all of a
42:12sudden people had a sense of humor you
42:14know they listened well
42:17they were more creative problem solvers
42:19so we learned from this that you know
42:21reducing flooding and physiologically
42:24reducing your your arousal is a very
42:27important part and one of the most
42:28important thing you can do to really
42:30make that happen is to take a break call
42:33a timeout
42:34and what we found is studying violent
42:36couples was that they never did that
42:38whenever they had a violent fight there
42:40was one person who wanted to get away
42:42from the other and have a time out and
42:44the other one say no way
42:46you're not abandoning me you're not
42:47having a timeout and so the conflict
42:50would escalate so monitoring your
42:52physiological arousal is very important
42:54now this is nobody's fault right i mean
42:56when your heart rate gets up you get
42:58defensive you know you're really in a
43:00state of fight or flight and there's no
43:02way you can be a good problem solver and
43:04you can listen well
43:06and that gets us to the final part of
43:09this theory and these principles for
43:11making relationship work is the idea of
43:14shared meaning and a shared meaning
43:16system
43:18and this is really one of the most
43:19important things about relationships is
43:22that what people do in relationships
43:24that really work well is there feel like
43:26they're building something
43:28something beyond just the two of them
43:30they feel like being together has some
43:33meaning and purpose
43:34and there are many ways in which people
43:36create meaning and purpose
43:37most people do it really unintentionally
43:40without talking about it without
43:42thinking about why they're doing what
43:44they're doing and what they're doing one
43:46important way of people build meaning is
43:48by the way they move through time
43:50together now what i want to suggest to
43:52you is that every relationship
43:55even if people come from the same race
43:57the same religion the same part of the
43:59country the same ethnic group every
44:02relationship is a cross-cultural
44:04experience
44:05so people create meaning thinking about
44:07their cultural legacy their heritage
44:09they think about their mission in life
44:11what they want to leave the world with
44:14and that relationship either supports
44:16that mission and legacy or not
44:18they create meaning in the way they move
44:20through time together right they create
44:22meaning and how they think about
44:23themselves as a son as a daughter as a
44:27friend as a brother or sister as a
44:30mother and a father as a husband or wife
44:33and all of these ways you know in all of
44:35these roles and all of these ways people
44:37create meaning now you can do it
44:39intentionally or you can do it
44:40unintentionally but if you do it
44:42intentionally then you create the shared
44:44meaning system
44:45and what are we doing there we're really
44:47again building love maps right so it
44:50really comes back to the beginning to
44:52friendship so let me summarize there are
44:54really three parts to making a
44:56relationship uh a successful
44:58relationship the one that works out over
45:00time and gets better over time one thing
45:03is really the quality of friendship and
45:06all you have to do for that is build
45:08love maps
45:09build fondness and admiration which is
45:11affection respect and notice bids for
45:13connection and turn toward your partner
45:16rather than away and against and when
45:18that happens you're in a state of
45:19positive sentiment override rather than
45:22negative and that helps you really
45:24repair it helps you have a recovery
45:26conversation after a fight helps you
45:28regulate the conflict and repair when it
45:30happens and i also told you that during
45:33conflict most problems don't get solved
45:36in a relationship people just adapt to
45:38them and when they don't adapt to them
45:40it's because they're really gridlocked
45:42on a conflict
45:43and those horrible conflicts the worst
45:46ones really can be the greatest sources
45:48of intimacy if you wind up opening those
45:51fists and releasing the dreams within
45:53the conflict and honoring one another's
45:55dreams and that's actually the tip of
45:57the iceberg because it's part of
45:59creating a shared meaning system
46:00together
46:01and that's what makes relationships work
46:03well
46:04thank you very much for listening
46:05[Applause]
46:06[Music]
46:10we hope you've enjoyed this special
46:12presentation of dr john gutman's making
46:14marriage work if you'd like to own a
46:16copy of this program or any of better
46:18life media's programs please visit our
46:20website at betterlifemedia.com
46:23where you'll find all types of valuable
46:25life improvement information
46:38[Music]
46:49come on
47:02you

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