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LUCY GUO: The Most Common Success Advice That's Secretly Holding You Back — Transcript

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0:00I think that being delusional is
0:01necessary to be a founder. You really
0:03have to believe I'm going to be part of
0:04the point zero one percent that is
0:06actually going to build a unicorn.
0:08>> What advice are people being told about
0:10success that you think is outdated?
0:13>> I think that college is no longer
0:14needed. That means that I believe that
0:15your network is your net worth [music]
0:17and there's no better place to go than
0:19college to expand your network.
0:21>> So you're saying go to college, but
0:23don't go there for the degree.
0:24>> Exactly.
0:25>> How do you think the best ideas are
0:27found?
0:28>> Ideas are cheap and execution is
0:30everything.
0:37>> Hey everyone, welcome back to On
0:38Purpose. Today I'm sitting down with
0:40Lucy Guo, entrepreneur, investor,
0:43co-founder of Scale AI, and one of the
0:45youngest self-made female billionaires
0:47in the world. Today we dive into the new
0:50rules of success, why speed has been our
0:52greatest advantage, and how AI is
0:55reshaping opportunity. Please welcome to
0:57On Purpose, Lucy Guo. Lucy, I am so
1:00happy to be with you here because not
1:02only do we know each other a little bit
1:04offline, we've been to some pretty crazy
1:06places together. So I saw you last year
1:10on Luminara, on the yacht trip, which
1:12was amazing.
1:13>> Yes.
1:13>> And then I saw you at my house where we
1:16did a fundraiser event. Then I saw you
1:18at the Dior party. It's I feels like our
1:20lives have just been mashed
1:22>> and now we're seeing each other in
1:23Cannes next week.
1:23>> Yeah, exactly. [laughter] It's awesome,
1:25but
1:25>> Thank you for having me.
1:26>> Oh no, I'm so excited for my audience to
1:28learn from you. I think that right now
1:30we're living at such an exciting time
1:32where so many young people are driven,
1:35they're ambitious, they want to do
1:37incredible things. You've already lived
1:39that, you've done it. You're going on to
1:41do more. I know you've shared some ideas
1:43with me. So I can't wait to get inside
1:44your brain today. This is going to be
1:46fun.
1:46>> Yeah. I wanted to ask you the first
1:48question I have for you is
1:49what advice are people being told about
1:52success today that you think is
1:54outdated?
1:56>> I still think that college is extremely
1:58outdated. I think that we're taught to
2:00go study and then get a traditional job.
2:03Um but especially in the world of AI, I
2:05think that college is no longer needed.
2:07That being said, I believe that your
2:08network is your net worth and there's no
2:10better place to go than college to
2:12expand your network. Because college is
2:14really the first time and only time in
2:15your life where you're going to be
2:17thrown into a world where everyone wants
2:20to make friends. No one knows each
2:21other, right? So everyone's open to this
2:23like emotional connection. I always tell
2:25people like I actually think one to two
2:27years of college is extremely useful
2:28because that is where you're going to
2:30build your network and you're going to
2:31build the deepest network. Because you
2:33know, your most talented friends are
2:34always going to get these like
2:35multi-million dollar job offers straight
2:37out of college. But um if you're able to
2:40have that emotional connection, like
2:41everything is sales. From retaining your
2:43employees to selling them to get you
2:45them to join your company. And uh
2:47college is the best place where you can
2:50like really build that emotional
2:51connection because everyone is open to
2:53it. Afterwards, like you may go work at
2:55a company, you may join like, you know,
2:57different uh
2:58like interest groups, etc. But uh it's
3:01just not at the same density as
3:04colleges.
3:05>> So you're saying go to college, but
3:07don't go there for the degree.
3:08>> Exactly. Yes.
3:09>> there for the networking, the groups of
3:11people, the emotional connections,
3:13practicing things.
3:15>> And I think colleges are really great
3:16place, especially in classes to like
3:17learn a lot and learn how to think. But
3:20you should apply those skills to
3:21practical skill sets or you should apply
3:23the skills that you learn into practical
3:25use cases. So I would learn how to think
3:28in these classes and then I would start
3:30using AI tools, right? And really
3:32accelerate what you can do and be that
3:35like 10X executor earlier on in life.
3:38>> Where did you go to college again?
3:39>> I went to Carnegie Mellon.
3:40>> Did you go to college with anyone that
3:42you're still friends with? What are What
3:43are your peers doing now? Like what else
3:45have they done?
3:45>> Straight out of college, I had actually
3:47hired um the smartest people that I met.
3:50So like, you know, my TA, my computer
3:52science little like, had this like It's
3:54not a sorority little, but like within
3:55this YES program
3:57because they were just like top of their
3:58class, right? So, that was a little
3:59perfect example of like, "Hey, this is
4:00emotional sales, and this is emotional
4:02retention."
4:03When I had dropped out, I'd actually met
4:05a lot of people within the college
4:06network, not my specific university, but
4:08like within the United States through
4:10hackathons. So, I'm still friends with
4:11them, and these are people that I've
4:13actually invested into after like, you
4:15know, hiring them. They went on to go
4:16build their own companies.
4:18So, I think that's just a perfect
4:19example of like how they were ready to
4:21like, you know, open up and be friends
4:23with me, and by maintaining those
4:24connections, I was able to hire them as
4:26my employees, retain them, and then
4:28support them when they went to go build
4:29their own companies.
4:30>> Wow, that that's so fascinating that you
4:32were able to not only maintain those
4:34relationships, but they become mutually
4:36beneficial for everyone.
4:38And it's a really unique way to look at
4:40college, actually, because I think right
4:41now you have the anti-college agenda,
4:44and then [clears throat] you have people
4:45saying you have to go to college because
4:46of the old reason. So, it's an
4:48interesting one. I also wanted to ask
4:49you, what's a habit that you think
4:51ambitious people think is going to make
4:54them successful, but actually is slowing
4:56them down or holding them back?
4:58>> So, this is actually probably an
5:00interesting one. I think that ambitious
5:02people have this mindset like, "I want
5:03to learn from the smartest people,"
5:05because that makes sense, right? So,
5:06they gather all the mentors that they
5:07have possible, and then they enter
5:09paralysis when it comes to
5:11decision-making. So, they ask all the
5:12mentors around them instead of listening
5:15to like their own gut. And if I had done
5:17that, Skill actually would have never
5:19started because I had a decision
5:21paralysis when I was deciding whether
5:23leave Snapchat versus go build a
5:24company. I gathered all my mentors. I
5:26asked them, like, "Do you think I should
5:28stay at Snap or go do my own thing?" And
5:30every single one of them, and I mean
5:32every single one of them, told me to
5:33stay at Snap because Snap was in its
5:35hyper-growth stage, and like it was, you
5:36know, about to go public. People thought
5:39I was absolutely insane given that I was
5:41on this extremely special team with only
5:4310 people, and I think I would have
5:45entered decision paralysis if I were to
5:48have listened to my mentors. So, I ended
5:50up just listening to my gut and
5:52optimizing for learning instead because
5:53I did feel like my learning had become
5:55stagnant at the company. But, I think
5:58that extremely smart people constantly
5:59want to learn from others, so they find
6:01the smartest people and they ask almost
6:03too many questions. It's better to make
6:05an imperfect decision, but move forwards
6:08because you can change your path than to
6:11enter decision paralysis.
6:12>> I feel like any good decision I made in
6:15my life has often been opposed to some
6:18of the smartest people in my life
6:20because you feel it internally.
6:21>> Exactly. And I think investments are
6:22very similar, right? Because you have to
6:24go against the grain to make a good
6:26investment. Like Airbnb, I think is a
6:28great example and Uber is a great
6:29example. Like no one thought it would
6:30work, but the investors that thought it
6:31was worth they went against the grain.
6:33And I think that's when the best
6:34decisions are made.
6:36>> Did you have to give up like did you
6:37have equity? Did you give up stock
6:38shares? Like were you giving up like a
6:40ton of money too to go and do your own
6:42thing?
6:42>> So, I was giving up a lot of money. I
6:44wouldn't call it life-changing money for
6:46me per se, but I think it was
6:47life-changing money for other people,
6:48especially cuz Snap's vesting schedule
6:50at that point was like 10 20 30 40, um
6:52which is a very unique vesting schedule.
6:54So, um that meant that I was leaving the
6:56majority of my equity on the table.
6:58>> Wow, so you would have had to really
6:59feel a sense of inner confidence that
7:01you had an idea.
7:02>> This goes back to you are like the
7:04average of the people you hang around
7:05with. And because I was in this Tier
7:07Fellowship network and all my peers were
7:10uh founders that had either raised tens
7:12of millions of dollars or had built
7:14billion-dollar companies, um I really
7:16did believe that I could be one of those
7:19people. Um I think that being delusional
7:21is necessary to be a founder because if
7:24you're building a venture-scalable
7:26business, you really have to believe
7:27like I'm going to make it. I'm going to
7:28be part of the 0.01% that's actually
7:31going to build a unicorn. Um I do think
7:33that there are other businesses like
7:34lifestyle businesses that are much more
7:36easier to become successful because
7:38you're not shooting for the stars,
7:39right? Like if you're making like less
7:42than a hundred million a year for
7:43venture, that's not great. But, if
7:46you're doing that like ten million a
7:47year as an individual, like that can
7:49support you for the rest of your life.
7:51>> If you were 22,
7:53you had no money, no followers, and you
7:55felt like you had no connections, what
7:57would you do in the next 30 days to
7:59change the trajectory of your life?
8:01>> If I were 22, I would actually go live
8:04on campus at different colleges because
8:07I feel like I would be young enough to
8:08do so where I could pass off as a
8:09college student. That's actually how I
8:11was able to gain kind of a network
8:13outside of just Carnegie Mellon,
8:16where I had lived on Menlo Avenue at USC
8:19and like kind of just hung out out at
8:21USC as like a student. I was like, you
8:23know, in San Francisco and I was hanging
8:25out at Stanford as like a student per
8:27se. And when you blend in the college
8:29community, like you will just start
8:30getting invited to things whether it's
8:32like fraternity parties or hackathons,
8:33etc.
8:34I would also like definitely continue to
8:36go to hackathons because hackathons are
8:39great. It attracts a certain type of
8:40student that wants to do something over
8:42the weekend that doesn't involve
8:43partying, right? Like, they are side
8:45questing to build and learn. And when
8:47you go to these hackathons, generally
8:49like all the surrounding colleges go as
8:51well. So, like MHacks attracted like
8:53pretty much all the East Coast colleges.
8:55So did Penn Hacks, so did HackMIT. So,
8:58you're not only meeting people from that
8:59college, but all the smartest students
9:01from different universities.
9:03>> So wait, you were
9:05you weren't pretending to go to other
9:06colleges, you were just hanging out at
9:08other colleges.
9:09>> Pretty much, yeah.
9:10>> [laughter]
9:10>> And so then you got the benefit of
9:11building your network in those colleges,
9:13too.
9:13>> Yeah.
9:14>> Did you do that because it was fun or
9:16did you do that because you knew it
9:18would pay off in the long run? Like,
9:19what was your mindset as a 22 I guess
9:21when you were at college you were
9:22younger than that. What was your mindset
9:24as a college student?
9:25>> Specifically when I had dropped out,
9:28and this app completely failed before
9:30the Thiel Fellowship,
9:31I was going to build DoorDash actually.
9:33I built DoorDash at a hackathon and then
9:36um, between the hackathon and when I
9:38decided to go build a company, uh,
9:40DoorDash got built. So, I was like,
9:41great, I need a twist on it, right? So,
9:43the twist was, okay, let's have people
9:44cook food for other students and deliver
9:46it versus restaurants. This has many,
9:48many issues starting from like food
9:49safety. It's completely illegal,
9:51whatever. But, I launched at Carnegie
9:52Mellon and it did well and I was like,
9:54great, I need to like expand other
9:56colleges. So, that was the mindset in
9:58going to live in other colleges and
10:00like, you know, really get in the
10:01community so I can convince other
10:03college students at these universities
10:05to cook food for like, their fellow
10:06students. And college is a really great
10:08place to do it because, um, cuz it's so
10:10high density. Like, you could just make
10:12a batch of cookies, for example, and run
10:13around campus and deliver it to hundreds
10:15of students. Um, people were making like
10:16$100 an hour. It was great. Yeah.
10:18>> That's crazy.
10:19>> illegal. Don't do it. Don't build it. I
10:21mean, you will.
10:22>> How did you feel when you create
10:26your version of DoorDash at a hackathon
10:29and then you see the real idea happen?
10:31>> Honestly, I think that ideas are cheap
10:33and execution is everything. So, for me,
10:35it's like, okay, cool, whatever, right?
10:36Like, Uber wasn't the first, but they
10:38executed extremely well. So, um, I
10:41didn't like feel any resentment. I was
10:43like, okay, cool, like, this is a great
10:44app I can use. Like, let me think of
10:46something else.
10:47>> Yeah, I think that's what's so
10:48fascinating about high achievers like
10:49you where a lot of people think that the
10:51idea is the value and when you see
10:53someone do it, you're like, oh, I could
10:55have done it. I could have done that.
10:56And it's like, well, no, not really
10:58because actually what it showed you is
10:59you got out a good idea. Someone went
11:01and did it already, but that means you
11:02could find another good idea.
11:04>> Exactly. There's literally billions of
11:05people on this earth. Like, uh, people
11:06have ideas all the time. Like, people
11:08execute all the time. Like, you can
11:09easily hire a developer in India, etc.
11:11Get it done cheap. Now, you can use AI
11:13and like, use Lovable, Replit, etc. and
11:15like, develop your idea. But, um,
11:17execution is everything.
11:19>> Where do you think young people waste
11:21most of their time when they're building
11:23their career?
11:24>> I think young people are wasting most of
11:25their time working at these larger
11:27companies, um, because they have golden
11:29handcuffs. Because when you're smart,
11:31you're literally getting paid millions
11:33of dollars per year, right? Which is
11:35extremely hard to let go of. When you
11:37want to leave, they add in stock. They
11:39add in cash. They add in bonuses. Um I
11:41know some of the most talented people
11:43that
11:44I think could have built unicorn
11:45companies that ended up just staying at
11:47Snapchat for 10 years because they just
11:49kept on getting equity packages, which I
11:52understand from their perspective cuz it
11:54is like, you know, life-changing money
11:55over the course of the 10 years. Like
11:57you're making like what, eight figures?
11:58I don't want to say they sold cuz the
12:00work is still interesting, but they're
12:02trading off what is like extremely
12:05life-changing money, like generational
12:06wealth, and like working on something
12:09that they want to do, like that one
12:12project passion idea that they have, in
12:14exchange for cash.
12:15>> But do you think everyone could be an
12:17entrepreneur?
12:17>> I think everyone can be a certain type
12:19of entrepreneur. It just depends like
12:21how much of an entrepreneur do you want
12:22to be? Like, are you trying to build a
12:23$5,000 a month business? Like, yeah,
12:25anyone can do that. My friend literally
12:26prompted a chat to create a business
12:29with like a $50 budget, and it actually
12:31created a business that makes I think a
12:33few thousand a month.
12:34>> Wow.
12:34>> Yeah. Yeah. The research it found a
12:36domain name, it designed a really crappy
12:38logo.
12:39>> [laughter]
12:39>> I think that like anyone can be an
12:41entrepreneur, but like what kind of
12:42entrepreneur like what level are you
12:43trying to like shoot for in the sky?
12:46>> I guess the people that you're saying
12:47like they could have quit their job, and
12:49I guess and golden handcuffs of course
12:51there's different levels of it.
12:53>> Yes.
12:53>> So even where I grew up, I remember
12:57I was trying to leave my consulting job,
12:59which felt like golden handcuffs at the
13:01time. I was making like 45,000 pounds a
13:04year, and that felt like golden
13:06handcuffs at the time because I was
13:07like, that at least pays my bills and
13:10pays for my rent. I don't know what I do
13:12without it.
13:13When someone's in that position, how
13:15should they consider the next move? Like
13:18do you just quit and go all in? Do you
13:20come up with an idea first? Like, how do
13:22you think about the phases and
13:24trajectory of building something when
13:26you have golden handcuffs?
13:27>> What I had personally done was I was
13:29working on side projects and after I
13:31received investor interest, that's when
13:34I said I'm going to quit and go build.
13:36Um, I think that when people hedge too
13:38much as an investor, I don't think
13:40they're serious. Where they want the
13:42money inside their bank before they
13:45actually quit their job. So, I would say
13:47work on weekends or like, you know,
13:49after work, work on side projects, like
13:51get some traction because that traction
13:53will turn into investor money, but you
13:55don't really want to tell investors like
13:57"I haven't really quit my job yet."
13:59because it will make them feel All
14:01right, you can say that, but you should
14:03make it known that whether or not you
14:05get the money, you will quit your job.
14:07Or at least just say that. I don't know.
14:09Because I think you don't want them to
14:11think that you're not serious.
14:12>> I think people always get caught between
14:14that kind of like catch-22 of like, do
14:16you quit first and then you find what
14:17you want to do or do you find what you
14:19want to do and then build it?
14:20>> It is a sacrifice to de-risk, but
14:23de-risking does make sense. So, if
14:24you're able to work on your side
14:25projects over the weekend, after work,
14:28etc. Like, yeah, you won't be spending
14:29as much time with your friends, but
14:30you're also de-risking
14:32your life essentially. And I do think
14:35that like once you have an MVP with
14:37traction, which you don't need to quit
14:38your full-time job to get, like you will
14:40be able to fundraise.
14:41>> How do you think the best ideas are
14:43found?
14:44>> I think the best ideas are found when
14:45you're solving a problem for yourself
14:47because there's so many people in the
14:49world that if you're building for
14:50yourself, other people are going to have
14:52that problem. And then whether or how
14:54large of a company it can be is just a
14:55function of how many people also have
14:58your problem and how much are they
14:59willing to pay. But you'll know exactly
15:01what to build and then you'll be able to
15:02use the product yourself and be able to
15:05figure out which features to build or
15:06what needs to like, how to innovate,
15:08etc. So, I think the best companies that
15:11I've invested in and the best companies
15:13that I have built have all been problems
15:15that I've solved for myself.
15:16>> And that's where people should start.
15:18>> Absolutely.
15:19>> I think today everyone's now thinking
15:20how do you build the next billion-dollar
15:22company?
15:23>> And that's almost like the most counter
15:24>> dollar company might just be like a
15:26small problem that you're solving for
15:27yourself, but you decide to expand on
15:28the idea afterwards.
15:30>> I've heard you say, Lucy, that your
15:32biggest advantage is your speed.
15:35And I wanted to ask you, what's a
15:36decision that people waste 6 months on
15:38in business that they should figure out
15:40in 6 minutes?
15:42>> So, I think the thing that people waste
15:44the most time on is actually just
15:45product development and like design. Um
15:48because when you go to a large company
15:50and you see how long it takes to design
15:51small features, it could be months to
15:52years. Um because they want the UX to be
15:55perfect, but like a common misconception
15:57is that UX needs to be perfect for a
15:58product to be adopted. I actually highly
16:00disagree. People will go through bad UX.
16:03People will deal with bugs if they want
16:05the product badly enough. Like for
16:07example, let's say there's a
16:08the new iPhone, right? And like you're
16:10checking it out and it just keeps on
16:12bugging and it's like, "Okay, cool. Like
16:13the payment didn't go through. The
16:14payment didn't go through." You're going
16:15to keep keep clicking that payment
16:17button like 100 times until it goes
16:19through. Like you're dealing with the
16:20bad bugs because you want the product
16:21badly enough. So, I believe the best
16:23thing to do is just release 90%. Like
16:26you can design I think 90% good UX in 1
16:29to 2 days. And then just have the
16:30engineers build it, ship it, and then
16:32see if it's adopted. If it's adopted,
16:34then iterate on it until it's a good
16:36product. There's a very very few
16:38products I think that need perfect UX
16:41for it to get adopted. Um most products
16:44out there are like if people want it,
16:46they'll buy it. People feel like they
16:47need to build the full product in order
16:49to sell it. But my philosophy has always
16:51been like create landing pages. Like if
16:52you're building a B2B SaaS product, like
16:54make a landing page and start doing
16:56calls. See if you can get LOI signed. If
16:58it's like a low enough price point, see
17:00if people enter their credit cards to
17:01like save a spot on like the page. Um if
17:04you're building like even a like D2C
17:06product, I say sell it and then see how
17:09much you actually need to produce. And
17:10if you're late on orders, just give the
17:12customer another free like t-shirt or
17:14something or whatever you're building to
17:16make them feel happy and like not be
17:18upset that the order was late. That way
17:20you're actually testing demand for the
17:22product before wasting so much money and
17:24so much time developing just for it to
17:26flop.
17:27>> So many people I see when they're
17:28launching something they're spending all
17:29the time on the logo and the font and
17:31the color and all these types of things.
17:33And actually you're saying well, put it
17:35out then see if people even sign up and
17:37even care about it. And if they do then
17:40you've got all the time and money now to
17:41actually go and build the real thing.
17:43What what's our addiction to
17:44perfectionism? Like why do we do that?
17:47>> I almost think it's an excuse. I think
17:49that people believe that something needs
17:51to be perfect in order for it to work
17:53and when it's not perfect they blame it
17:54on the fact that it's not perfect. And I
17:57see this with tech founders all the time
17:58too where it's like okay cool like we
18:00just need to AB test our way into it
18:02being perfect for the product to work
18:04but sometimes the sum of all parts
18:05doesn't equal a whole, right? Like you
18:07can AB test to have higher sign up rates
18:09than like higher like engagement etc.
18:13But at the end of the day like there's
18:15only so much that I can fix. Like you
18:17probably need an entirely new feature
18:18which is not really AB testable. Yeah, I
18:21think that it it really is just an
18:22excuse.
18:23>> What's the difference between a good
18:24risk and a bad risk?
18:26>> I mean I think it's all a function of
18:28like um what are the consequences,
18:30right? I generally believe that a lot of
18:34products could not have been created
18:36without taking risks. So for example
18:38like I think Uber obviously didn't
18:40really listen to anyone and um they
18:43became so big that now it just exists. I
18:46was actually talking to the Stripe
18:47founders and I don't remember what rule
18:49they broke but even Stripe apparently
18:52broke some rules and then they just
18:54became too big to fail and like they
18:56just had to make it work. So yeah it it
18:59it's a function of just consequences.
19:02>> But how do you evaluate that when you
19:03don't know cuz I guess we all start
19:06thinking oh god if I do this then the
19:07opportunity cost is this or this is the
19:10risk level.
19:11>> I generally evaluate just based on like
19:13two criteria, which is like is this
19:15going to be life-changing for me and am
19:18I optimizing for learning? Because if
19:20I'm not optimizing for learning, I'm
19:21just not going to do it. Because I think
19:22that the knowledge I gain during the
19:24next thing, even if I like, you know,
19:26lost a few million, that's not for
19:28example. Like I was going to learn
19:29enough being a founder that I can take
19:31those skill sets and like, you know,
19:32either go get a new job that pays me
19:34better and I'll be more successful in my
19:36role or build another company. And then
19:39the life-changing money thing was also
19:40just kind where I was like, okay, like
19:42this doesn't necessarily change my life,
19:44so it's not worth my time.
19:45>> There's something that we can all use in
19:47in pretty much any decision.
19:48>> Always optimize for learning.
19:50>> That's such a big one because it's
19:51almost like we want to optimize for
19:53success.
19:54>> Mhm.
19:55>> But you're saying optimize for learning
19:56and that would lead to success, exactly.
19:58>> Yeah, like everyone always complains
20:00like, oh, it's such a big risk to like,
20:01you know, quit college or it's such a
20:02big risk to like quit this job to build
20:04a company. But it's not like you are
20:07losing your knowledge and skill sets,
20:09right? If anything, you come out the up,
20:11let's call it like a $10 million a year
20:13job, but guess what? You'll probably get
20:14a $20 million a year job. And I also
20:17think that people underestimate like how
20:18much like people want talent, which
20:20obviously we saw with Meta, right?
20:22Paying like nine figures for AI
20:27employees. I think that even if your
20:29company fails, if you hire talented
20:31people and you yourself are talented,
20:33there will be someone that will buy your
20:35company for more like than your
20:38investors invested at that evaluation
20:41because they know you want to make your
20:42investors whole and they know that you
20:44want money. And for the talent, they'll
20:46overpay.
20:47>> I keep thinking about my life and it was
20:49it was much smaller than that. Like I
20:51said, the amount I was making, but
20:53making a pivot,
20:54companies were so good at making you
20:56feel like, no, but you built a network
20:57here, you should stay here. Like there's
20:59such a culture of
21:02making you feel like you're going to
21:03fail if you move on. And I think people
21:05believe that. People buy into that. How
21:08do we break out of buying into the fact
21:09that we actually think if we lose a
21:12$100,000 a year job, then we're going to
21:15end up with a $70,000 a year job. We
21:17don't think we're going to be able to
21:19triple it or quadruple it.
21:21>> Yeah, I mean, I think that is just
21:23again, your network is your net worth
21:24and you are the average of the people
21:26that you hang around with. So, I was
21:28really uh lucky to hang out with
21:30founders that have done it before. So, I
21:32knew like how it actually went. Uh I was
21:34lucky enough to hang out with investors
21:36who, you know, they would give exploding
21:37term sheets, but they would also tell
21:39me, "Oh, exploding term sheets are the
21:41thing. Like if the founder came back, we
21:42would just give them the term sheet
21:44again."
21:44>> Yeah.
21:45>> People's fear is overcoming their logic.
21:48Yeah. Because logically, it's like, "Why
21:50would I not be able to get this job
21:52back?" Like if I was valuable to the
21:54company, they're going to want me again.
21:56And let's say for whatever reason the
21:58role is filled. I mean, companies find
22:00roles for people all the time when they
22:02think the person is Swiss Army knife and
22:04like smart and will be able to help the
22:06company. They'll like make a role for
22:07that person, right? Uh but also there's
22:09so many companies out there that will
22:11hire you based off of the fact that like
22:13you did great job at like company A.
22:14Like company B is going to want you and
22:16company B will fight for you and like
22:18understand that now you have more
22:19knowledge and more skill sets. So,
22:21they'll pay you more. Uh this is really
22:24people's fear overriding their logic.
22:26>> Everyone says find your passion. What's
22:28your take?
22:28>> I think you should do what you're best
22:30at to have the highest impact on your
22:32passion. So, for example, like I really
22:35like nonprofits and supporting
22:36charities. But at one point in time, I
22:39thought like I'm going to start my own
22:40nonprofit and charity and foundation.
22:42And you know, that might still happen,
22:44but I also realized like at this age in
22:46this state of my life, I'm really good
22:47at making money. So, my time is probably
22:49the best spent making money and then
22:51donating to causes that I care about and
22:54being run by people that actually know
22:56how to run an organization or a
22:58foundation. I don't know how to run a
23:00charity and like I had actually looked
23:01into this where I'm like, I'm going to
23:02start a foundation, I'm going to do X,
23:04Y, and Z. And I realized how much of
23:06work it is, right? And like, how it's
23:07like quite literally another full-time
23:09job. Like, maybe when I'm older, I'll
23:11like learn all those skill sets, and
23:12then I'll decide like my time is best
23:14spent doing that as my passion. But,
23:17I think optimize for fun. Fun doesn't
23:20necessarily need to be your passion, but
23:22like optimize for like how you can make
23:24an impact in whatever you're passionate
23:25about.
23:26>> But, that feels hard, right? Because
23:27people are like, for example, when I was
23:29growing up, I was passionate about
23:30soccer.
23:31>> Mhm.
23:32>> What do I do with that? Cuz I can't be a
23:33soccer player, cuz I'm not good enough.
23:35So, then what do I do?
23:35>> But, you can make enough money to buy a
23:37soccer team.
23:38>> [laughter]
23:39>> And then you can go to every soccer game
23:40and have so much fun.
23:41>> Right. So, you're saying that it doesn't
23:43have to be your career, but you may go
23:45build a career doing something else, but
23:47then use the fruits of that labor to
23:49then be closer to your passion.
23:51>> like, if you're able to experience your
23:52passion, that's what's going to make you
23:53happy, right? Like, it doesn't have to
23:55be your full-time job. Well, I guess now
23:57music is my career-ish, and my side
23:59class, but I just use everything that I
24:02had succeeded in, and like, you know,
24:04the money I had created to go experience
24:06music and like live events, and that
24:08made me extremely happy. I use like what
24:10I've been able to create that helps
24:11support causes that I care about, which
24:13has made me extremely happy. I don't
24:15think that needs to be your full-time
24:17career, and like, for most people it's
24:18not going to be their full-time career,
24:19because like, in certain fields, like,
24:22even no matter how talented you are,
24:24some of it is just luck, right? Like,
24:26I'll never really understand the music
24:27industry or the acting industry, because
24:29I have so many talented friends in it,
24:31and it just, for whatever reason,
24:33they're not making it. And I really do
24:34think it's because
24:35there's other factors like network,
24:37luck, etc. in that.
24:38>> Yeah, yeah. But, I like what you're
24:40saying that people often say pursue your
24:41passion, or make it your work. But,
24:44actually what you're saying is just go
24:45work, do the thing, and then connect
24:48your passion. And that feels much more
24:50realistic for most people. Like, I think
24:52for the majority of people, there are
24:54very few people who can can what they
24:55love, and it makes money. But, actually
24:57being free to the idea that you can do
25:00something not hopefully that you don't
25:02hate.
25:02>> Yeah, hopefully that you don't hate.
25:04>> Hopefully that you don't hate, but you
25:05do something, and that something gets
25:07you to be able to be closer to all of
25:09these things that you love, which I
25:10think is a is a much more genuine,
25:13authentic path for most people. Like,
25:15people can aspire to live that way.
25:17>> Exactly.
25:17>> And like you said, now you're closer to
25:18music, charities. What were you
25:20passionate about? Like, if you could
25:21have done something Like, for me, I
25:23could I would've been a soccer player if
25:24I could have like if I was good enough.
25:26What would you have done if you could
25:27have?
25:27>> Well, it's changed over the years. So,
25:29when I was younger, I wanted to be a
25:30singer, but I realized I'm basically
25:32tone deaf, and I can't sing for my life.
25:34So, that was out the window. And then, I
25:36remember when I was like, you know,
25:38choosing colleges, etc., I was like, it
25:39would be really cool to like be an FBI
25:41agent and like fight the bad guys. Um,
25:44but then
25:45that's unrealistic because I like this
25:47tiny woman, and you know, maybe I could
25:49learn, you know, some kung fu skills,
25:51but like overall, let's call it
25:52unrealistic, right? And then, I got
25:54really passionate about music, and um, I
25:57finally learned I can actually DJ. You
25:59don't need
26:01to be able to sing or play the
26:03instruments, etc., to be able to DJ. So,
26:05it's been like a very cool thing that
26:06I've been able to do.
26:07>> How do you at this stage in your career,
26:09how do you separate self-worth from net
26:12worth?
26:13>> This is really interesting. So, I was
26:14not a confident person until I went to
26:16Miami. And then, when I went to Miami, I
26:18just became friends with all these
26:19people cuz uh they just like my energy,
26:21right? Like, I would just see standing
26:23in an elevator, and people would come in
26:24and be like, "I felt your energy from
26:25far away, blah blah blah." It was the
26:27first time in my life where like I met
26:28people that were just like me, casa su
26:30casa, with no questions. Um, there's no
26:32agenda. And I think in the past, like in
26:35LA, San Francisco, New York, there's
26:36always like some sort of agenda. People
26:38are like they want to know who I was.
26:39It's like, "Oh, you're a Teal Fellow.
26:40Let me be friends with you." Or "You're
26:42a founder. Oh, you have a fund." Um,
26:43Miami was the first time in my life
26:45where no one asked what I did, and they
26:48just wanted to vibe with me cuz I gave
26:50off good energy. So, I became extremely
26:52happy there. Um and I think my
26:54self-worth is based off of that, where,
26:57you know, I have a close relationship
26:59with my family again. I'm close with my
27:00friends. Um and every time I meet
27:03someone, like that's a stranger that has
27:04no idea who I am, they're just like,
27:06"Wow, your energy is so vibey. Let's
27:08dance." Um and that makes me happy cuz
27:10it's like it shows people like me for me
27:12versus like my net worth. Um versus like
27:15I don't think I had that purity before I
27:18had experienced it in Miami.
27:20>> Entrepreneurially and professionally,
27:22what's something that
27:24you thought would go your way, but
27:26turned into a rejection or a failure?
27:28>> Honestly, like I'm not someone uh that
27:30sits and weeps. Like I've never really
27:32sat and felt sad. So, um unless, you
27:35know, like a close friend is hurt. Like
27:37I hear bad news from a close friend. But
27:39like for myself, whenever I face
27:40rejection, I'm like, "Okay, cool. On to
27:42the next." So, I've never like felt
27:44extremely hurt. One of the more like sad
27:48ones might have just been when I was so
27:51close to like my top VC choice. Like I
27:54was like, "I'm 100% going to get a term
27:56sheet. Like they're wining and dining
27:58me. They just flew out to meet me." And
28:00then it was just like out of the nowhere
28:02it was a no, right? And I was like,
28:04"What in the world happened?" Yeah, I
28:06was just like I felt a little bit led
28:07on, but also like I didn't really sit
28:11and feel bad about it. I was like,
28:12"Okay, cool. On to the next. Let's find
28:13a new lead."
28:14>> Do you think that mindset's
28:17integral and important at that level,
28:19like
28:19>> I think that being an extremely positive
28:21person that's constantly optimistic is
28:24what has gotten me to where I am today.
28:27I think the worst thing you can do is
28:28think like, "Oh, like the world is
28:30unfair. Um why did this happen to me?"
28:33Stop thinking that way. Like everyone is
28:35born with advantages and disadvantages.
28:37You kind of just have to take what you
28:38have and go forwards. And if you face
28:42rejection, um just learn from it and
28:45immediately like go and fix.
28:47>> That mindset obviously worked for you.
28:49You've made so much money.
28:50>> Uh-huh.
28:51>> You've become such a success story. What
28:54problems did money take away? And what
28:57problems stayed or got worse?
29:00>> When I first started out before I had
29:02any money, I was like couch surfing all
29:04the time. But I like didn't have
29:05anything to compare with. Like I
29:06actually loved couch surfing. It was
29:08fun. You get to meet a lot of people.
29:09Like I found couches extremely comfy. It
29:11was like to the point where I had an
29:13apartment, I had a bed, and I would
29:14sleep on the couch. So like [laughter]
29:16that was like nothing but like any
29:18stresses of money like went away, right?
29:20Um but I also think that like what it
29:22can cause is you become a little bit too
29:23comfortable, which isn't great.
29:28>> incredible entrepreneurs, people that
29:30you've worked with early days at Snap.
29:32What do you think is the most surprising
29:35thing you've noticed about the people at
29:37the top? Something that we'd be
29:39surprised or shocked to know.
29:41>> I think the people at the top are
29:43actually not the smartest people in the
29:45world at all. I think that they lack
29:47frameworks. And because they lack
29:49frameworks, they don't understand the
29:50concept of like how the world works, um
29:53which is actually very good because
29:54startups are built when you break
29:55frameworks um because you innovate,
29:57right? Um which is why when you take
30:00someone in an industry that's been an
30:01industry for decades and hire them in,
30:03often times like they don't innovate cuz
30:05they're like things have to be done this
30:07way because things have always been done
30:08this way. And again, Airbnb, Uber, great
30:10examples of this. They weren't transport
30:12experts, they weren't real estate
30:13experts. So they didn't have a framework
30:15of like how things are supposed to be.
30:17Um I think the people at the top
30:19completely lack frameworks um because
30:21they didn't have decades of experience.
30:24And because of that, um they were able
30:26to innovate, but also they tell their
30:27employees. Like their employees might be
30:29like, "That's impossible." And they're
30:30like, "I don't care." And their
30:32employees might be PhDs and they're
30:33like, "No, literally. I've been doing
30:34this for 20 years. I have multiple PhDs.
30:36This is impossible." And they'll just
30:38like, "No, it's not. Go do it." Um and
30:41they will say things like, "Okay,
30:42whoever does it gets this like giant
30:44bonus. Whoever does this gets promoted,
30:45etc." And when people see that prize,
30:48that's when people like really force
30:49themselves to break the framework that
30:51they know, because they're so desperate
30:54to like get that thing that was offered
30:57to them. I would say like when you look
30:59at the people at the top, they're not
31:01the most educated, really. I think that
31:03in general they have high EQ. Some of
31:04them don't have high EQ, but they force
31:07the impossible to be possible.
31:08>> You're reminding me of that great
31:10conversation between Steve Wozniak and
31:11Steve Jobs.
31:12So, Steve Wozniak goes up to Steve Jobs
31:14and he goes, "What do you even do?
31:17You're not a coder, you're not a
31:18marketer, you're not a salesperson,
31:20you're not an engineer. What do you even
31:22do?" And Steve Jobs replies, he says,
31:24"Musicians play their instruments. I
31:26play the orchestra."
31:28And it's such a powerful statement
31:30because he doesn't know how to do all
31:32the bits and bobs. He just He's like,
31:34"All I know how to do is put it all
31:35together and get it to all work in
31:37harmony, but I don't really know
31:39everything." And I think people when
31:41they're on their journey, they feel
31:43like, "I'm not smart enough. I don't
31:45know enough. I should be more
31:46experienced."
31:48So, what's that balance then with you
31:50know nothing about an industry, which is
31:52a not having a framework is a positive
31:55thing.
31:56But then what is different about that
31:57entrepreneur that you don't know
31:59anything about the industry, you break
32:00all the rules, that's what makes you
32:02successful?
32:03>> I think it's also being visionary. Like,
32:04I think Steve Jobs is actually a great
32:06example of this where he told his team
32:07like, "I don't care if it's impossible,
32:09you're going to figure it out, right?" I
32:11think Elon Musk has told and seen this,
32:14etc., etc.
32:15Because they lack the frameworks to like
32:17really understand like this is
32:19impossible, and it might have been
32:20impossible at the time, but obviously
32:22like innovations do happen
32:25in technology, and they force their
32:27employees to innovate and break those
32:29frameworks to make their vision
32:31possible. But, I think it's being open
32:34to the possibility of things like
32:36lacking frameworks, and then just I
32:39don't want to say you like they they had
32:41knowledge in like technology in general,
32:43right? But they might not have been
32:45expert in like real estate in
32:46transportation, in industrial design.
32:50Um but I think that you need just enough
32:53knowledge um
32:55and then just enough grit, just enough
32:57persuasion to get the smartest people in
32:59the room, convince them to innovate.
33:01>> It's almost like having that undeniable
33:03belief that we can find a way.
33:06>> Exactly.
33:07>> And it's almost like we have to find a
33:08way.
33:09>> Yeah.
33:09>> Because I'm not going to accept anything
33:11less than that.
33:11>> Exactly. I can literally tell you like
33:13this did happen at Apple, obviously this
33:15happened at SpaceX, and look at like
33:17Elon now.
33:19>> Where does the kind of
33:21that leadership zeal
33:24or
33:25approach can often burn a lot of people
33:27as well?
33:29>> All leaders are extremely controversial
33:30and polarizing. Like there's no leader
33:32out there where like everyone loves,
33:33right? Um but I think that being
33:35polarizing makes you interesting and the
33:37people that are on your side are going
33:39to work their hardest to make you happy
33:42and like to bring that product idea that
33:44you have to life.
33:45>> What were the biggest challenges you
33:47had? Did you Did you have any friction
33:49when you were rising up the ranks and
33:51building your company and like where
33:52where were the points that you hit
33:54difficulties?
33:55>> This comes down to hiring the right
33:56people and again like all leaders are
33:58polarizing. Um but we were like all
34:01hands-on deck. I think that every single
34:02company I've been at it's been all
34:04hands-on deck where you're not just
34:06going to be doing what your job
34:07description is. So at scale we had like
34:09you know the engineers labeling data. I
34:12had my engineers talking to creators and
34:13doing customer support um because I
34:15think that when you are deep in the
34:18weeds you're going to really understand,
34:19especially like when you're working with
34:21customers, you're going to understand
34:22like what needs to be built, um what
34:24bugs there are, like what's critical,
34:25what's not. Uh so I think it's extremely
34:29important to be in the weeds, especially
34:30early stage, and talk to customers and
34:34do things outside your job description.
34:36Like even our investors were doing
34:37things outside their job description
34:38where they were like on LinkedIn helping
34:40us like find new employees to hire. They
34:43were like clean our office for us when
34:45we didn't have time to cuz we were
34:47constantly on sales calls.
34:49You can imagine that like that can
34:50create a very polarizing environment
34:52because people are like, "I didn't get
34:53hired to do this." But the right people
34:55that you hire going to be willing to be
34:56all hands-on deck.
34:57>> Right now in this AI world that we're
34:59living in,
35:00what are three skills that humans should
35:02develop
35:04knowing that AI's going to be able to do
35:06pretty much everything?
35:07>> So, I think the number one skill they
35:10should develop is human connection. Like
35:12being able to like have high EQ, being
35:14able to do sales, etc. Because that's
35:17never going to disappear. AI might be
35:19able to like, you know, reach out to
35:21agents, like negotiate a contract for
35:23you, write the contract for you. But how
35:25you're going to close the deal is
35:27through human connection and how you are
35:29able to even like win over deals is
35:31through human connection, right? Um like
35:33so much of it, and this goes back here
35:35like your network is your net worth, is
35:37that like things are emotional sales,
35:39emotional retention. Um like even
35:41extending a contract, for example. So, I
35:43think that like that's definitely the
35:44number one skill in AI world. Number two
35:47is I think develop really good taste in
35:49like whatever you are doing. Like for
35:52example, like AI is going to replace a
35:53lot of designers. But the designers with
35:56the best taste are going to be able to
35:57pick out, "Okay, like this is the best
36:00design that this AI has generated. So,
36:03let's go with this."
36:04>> Yeah.
36:05>> And then, I think three like figure out
36:08how to scale your time with AI. And if
36:10you're able to do this sooner than any
36:12everyone else, like let's say you have
36:14an idea and you decide to make an app
36:15with AI or like you create these bots
36:16and like that helps you scale your time
36:18and be like 10x more efficient than
36:19everyone else. Um then you sell that bot
36:21to help other people in your role be 10x
36:22more efficient than everyone else.
36:24You're going to be able to create that
36:25wealth um before I don't want to say
36:27it's too late, but like I do think that
36:29AI's going to make a lot of people rich,
36:31but the people that fall behind, it's
36:32not going to be great for them.
36:33>> Are you a ChatGPT, Claude, Perplexity,
36:37what are you using?
36:38>> I use different tools depending on the
36:41use case. Um I think anything, I want to
36:44say like consumer-related,
36:46um and this can be anything from like
36:48helping me think of like music ideas to
36:51researching like the best hotels out
36:52there. I use chat, and then for anything
36:55enterprise business focus, I use Claude.
36:57Nothing really beats out Claude code,
36:59and Claude's new design tool is
37:01absolutely phenomenal. And what's cool
37:04is that like, you know, you could
37:05literally design something in Claude
37:06design, and then import it into Claude
37:08code, which is great. Um even like
37:11little details like Claude is really
37:13good at designing um like full-scale
37:15applications. So like UX UI, etc. But if
37:18I want like a simple graphic edit that I
37:20would normally use Photoshop to do,
37:22chat's actually better at that. There's
37:24different reasons to use different
37:25tools. How has AI changed the way you're
37:27hiring for your new companies versus
37:29your old one? I actually like include AI
37:32questions uh in every single role right
37:34now, and um right now I am actually
37:37asking my entire team to give take-homes
37:40to non-technical roles. Um so for
37:42example, with their AE roles, um so
37:44sales, it's like, I want you to figure
37:46out how to use Cursor, Replit, like
37:48Claude code to create a bot where it's
37:50like you take an Instagram profile and
37:52guestimate like how much a person will
37:54earn. Because A, like that's extremely
37:56simple to do using AI tools, and B, I I
37:58can see kind of how you think based off
37:59how you prompt it. Like what metrics are
38:01you looking at, um what are you scraping
38:03on the internet, etc. to get this number
38:06out there. I think that every employee
38:08needs to be using AI to be a 10x
38:11employee now. So if they're they haven't
38:14taken the proactive-ness to actually do
38:16that themselves, I want to see how
38:18quickly they can learn over a weekend.
38:20Because I do think that like some people
38:21just like, you know, haven't just
38:22haven't decided or haven't been in a
38:24role where they're like, let me learn,
38:25but it's so quick to learn. Like I think
38:27learning trajectory is everything. So,
38:29if someone can learn quickly, they can
38:31easily become a 10x employee um versus
38:33someone that like might have had more
38:34experience, but is stagnant and
38:35resistant to learning. So, I think
38:37take-home challenges are really great
38:38for this cuz within 40 hours you can see
38:40like, "Okay, cool, like how much did you
38:41do?"
38:42>> What job do you think looks safe today,
38:44but won't exist in 10 years?
38:46>> I think that there are certain creative
38:48jobs that look safe today that won't
38:50exist in the future. Let's call it like
38:53being a like videographer, photographer.
38:56That is a very human job that's not very
39:00analytical. It's very artistic, etc. But
39:02I actually think that most models are
39:05going to be AI-generated. Like a lot of
39:07humans are going to license out their
39:08likeness. So, AI is going to generate a
39:11bunch of different videos and photos.
39:14Editors might still exist, right? Like
39:17or like the taste makers will go in and
39:18choose the right one and edit it to be
39:21what it should have been. Certain jobs
39:24like that. Like even writers, right?
39:27Like AI is going to get extremely good
39:29at writing, but editing will still
39:31exist.
39:32>> What's the biggest mistake people are
39:34making with AI right now?
39:36>> The biggest mistake would probably just
39:38be assuming that AI works really well.
39:41They're just assuming everything
39:42outputted is true, right? Like AI is
39:44really only as good as the data that you
39:46give it. So, if you feed a model like
39:48the sky is red, it's going to output the
39:49sky is red. This happens everywhere,
39:52even with engineering, right? Like if AI
39:54makes one mistake and then it continues
39:55to create more and more bugs, but you
39:57trust AI to code for you, that's not
39:58great. Which is why right now like if
40:01you take a great engineer and give it
40:03AI, like it becomes a 100x engineer. But
40:06if you take like a mid-level or
40:07entry-level engineer and give it AI,
40:09you're just going to actually end up
40:10with a lot of tech debt because they're
40:12not fixing the problems that AI is
40:13generating. But But this exists across
40:16the spectrum.
40:17>> When did you first start learning about
40:19AI?
40:20>> I mean, I would say probably started
40:22with Scale. Scale was the picks and
40:24shovels of the AI industry, right? We
40:26weren't creating these like innovative
40:28new foundation models. We were literally
40:30labeling the data. So, like we would
40:32have self-driving car companies send us
40:34lidar data, images, videos, and we had
40:36labelers around the world say like
40:37that's a car, that's a pedestrian,
40:39there's a stop sign on the road. Like
40:40that was what we were extremely good at
40:42and that's always going to be needed
40:43because it goes back to like your model
40:45is only as good as the data that you
40:46feed it. That was when I really started
40:48learning like how important data is
40:50because even like with generative AI,
40:52like if it generates something wrong and
40:53it thinks it's correct, like you're
40:55going to get more wrong generations and
40:57that's not great, which is why like
40:59reinforcement learning is always going
41:01to be a thing. But, yeah, like I would
41:03say like that was probably So, back in
41:052016 was when I first started like
41:07understanding AI.
41:08>> You learned about AI in 2016.
41:1150 to 60% of the current US population
41:14have used AI at least once and that
41:17shows that we just feel like AI just
41:19came around 2 years ago. What's the
41:21thing that people like yourself are
41:22talking about right now that the world
41:25is only going to catch up with in 10
41:26years? You were talking about AI 10
41:28years ago and the average person was not
41:30talking about AI. They didn't even know
41:31it was coming.
41:32>> Yeah. I mean, 10 years is a really long
41:34time, but I think that right now what
41:37I'm thinking about constantly is
41:41what's going to happen to college
41:42students because like I said, AI can
41:45make someone exceptional really, really
41:47great. But, when you take someone
41:49entry-level, AI does their job better.
41:52Like Claude just shut down Fable, so
41:54it's no longer accessible, but Fable is
41:57as good as a staff engineer. It's
42:00absolutely incredible. So, if you're a
42:02really great engineer, holy crap, you're
42:04going to be like a thousand X engineer.
42:06And the better you are, the more useful
42:08AI is. But again, if you're like, you
42:10know, entry-level and you're using it,
42:12like you're not going to be able to
42:13utilize it in the same way and it's not
42:15great. I think in general with new
42:17technologies, new jobs are created.
42:19Like, prompt engineering is a new job,
42:21right? And it's extremely important new
42:23job. So, and like now we have a bunch of
42:25people labeling data because that's a
42:26new job and that's a huge industry.
42:28>> For people who don't know, what does a
42:29prompt engineer do?
42:31>> They basically prompt the AI to output
42:33what you want it to output.
42:34>> Okay, so having someone who's so good at
42:36writing a prompt.
42:37>> yeah, so good at writing prompts that
42:38like you get the output that you want.
42:39>> Because everyone's just putting in these
42:41average prompts, yeah.
42:42>> Exactly. My best guess is that like AI
42:44has actually democratized being able to
42:45start companies and be an entrepreneur.
42:47So, I think more people are going to
42:48become entrepreneurs. Um because before
42:50you would need to, you know, raise a ton
42:52of money, then hire engineers and a huge
42:53team, and then go build the product. And
42:55now AI's building products like that for
42:58free, really, um or extremely cheap. So,
43:01I think ideas people are actually going
43:03to be able to execute way better than
43:05before. Like, in the past, like it was
43:07like, "Okay, cool. Like, if you're not
43:08an engineer, I don't want to invest in
43:09you." But now someone that's an ideas
43:11person can literally use AI to generate
43:13something and get traction on it and
43:15then be able to fundraise. And you can
43:18now raise significantly less money to
43:20get to metrics that you would need to
43:22get to before you can raise a Series A.
43:24So, because it's a lot cheaper to start
43:26companies and run companies, I do think
43:29it's going to democratize the access to
43:31being an entrepreneur. And like that is
43:32going to be a middle ground people are
43:34going to take when, like, you know,
43:35students realize, like, "Oh, What
43:36do I do? Like, I can't get a job."
43:38They're going to figure out how to use
43:39AI to start their own companies.
43:41>> Did you always know you were going to be
43:42this successful?
43:43>> I always knew I was going to start
43:45companies. And the reason why is because
43:47like when I was younger, I was always
43:48just figuring out how to make money and
43:50build things. Like, I really enjoyed
43:52building things and seeing people use my
43:53products.
43:54>> What would you build as a kid?
43:55>> So, I built like a virtual pet site. I
43:57don't know how I convinced a bunch of
43:58engineers, designers, artists to work
43:59for me for free. So, I built a virtual
44:02pet site. I think I was in like fifth
44:04grade or something. Yeah, like fifth,
44:06sixth grade, really, really young. I
44:07built like arcade game websites. I built
44:09like Twitter bots, internet marketing
44:10tools. But what was really exciting to
44:12me was just like it could be like a
44:14really crappy website like based off of
44:15WordPress, but I would submit it on
44:17StumbleUpon and I'd be like, "Oh my god,
44:19there's 10,000 people on my website."
44:20Like I just love seeing people use my
44:22products. And then I would say like in
44:24college when I discovered hackathons,
44:25which is very early on, like my freshman
44:27year, I was like, "I'm going to build a
44:28company." Because it was my first time
44:30seeing that there was like so much more
44:31to the world than just building internet
44:32marketing tools. I was like, "Wow, I can
44:34build extremely impactful companies that
44:36really change how someone lives their
44:38day-to-day life." But in terms of being
44:40successful, I think that it goes back to
44:42like
44:43uh probably after I joined the Thiel
44:44Fellowship, I didn't necessarily think
44:47like, "Oh, I'm going to be a
44:48billionaire." But I looked around and
44:51everyone around me was raising tens of
44:53millions of dollars. They were like
44:54shooting to really change the world with
44:56their companies. And obviously like I
44:59think valuation is a direct measure of
45:01how impactful your product and your idea
45:03has been to the world. So, did I think I
45:05was going to impact the world? Like I
45:07guess yes. I didn't know to what scale.
45:10>> How does it feel to be
45:12the youngest female billionaire in the
45:14world? Like how does that feel?
45:15>> I'm still the same person as I was when
45:17I was younger, right? Like
45:19I think the difference is like when I
45:20was
45:21maybe 20 years old, I was literally
45:23skateboarding to Barry's Bootcamp and
45:25now I have someone that drives me to
45:26Barry's Bootcamp.
45:27>> But you're still at Barry's Bootcamp,
45:29yeah.
45:29>> But I'm still at Barry's Bootcamp every
45:30single day at 6:00 a.m. I still wake up
45:32at 5:30 a.m. every day. Um I'm still in
45:35the office like until late. Like I
45:37always try to be like one of the first
45:39people in the office and one of the last
45:40people to leave. Although Brittany might
45:42have me beat here.
45:43>> [laughter]
45:43>> With me in the first, not the last to
45:45leave.
45:45>> What do you think you had that was
45:47different about you that made you design
45:50sites when you were in fifth grade or
45:53what did you have that people around you
45:55didn't have?
45:56>> have friends. Sorry,
45:56>> [laughter]
45:57>> I had to say that. That was like you
45:58were feeding it to me. Um Um, but no, I
46:00had extremely strict Asian parents,
46:01right? So, um, my parents didn't really
46:04let me have sleepovers, um, and then I
46:06wasn't allowed to do like sports, etc.
46:08So, for me, I didn't really have
46:10friends. I was not cool, right? I was
46:12just I no one wanted to be my friend.
46:15And I wasn't allowed pets, either. So, I
46:17think it all started really with
46:18Neopets. I, um, started like, you know,
46:20messing around with the internet and
46:22then I was like, wait, this is really
46:23cool. I want my own version of this. As
46:25for like, why I want my own version, why
46:27I love building things, like I learned
46:28how to use Photoshop pretty early on,
46:30like I was learning PHP, like how to
46:31build WordPress sites and edit them. I
46:33don't really know like why I had that
46:35desire.
46:36That was almost like innate in me, I
46:38want to say. I would have been a
46:40professional athlete if I didn't have
46:41Asian parents. So, I think that was
46:42really it.
46:43>> What what's what?
46:44>> I was really good at swim. I had a lot
46:46of medals. Uh, I was very good at
46:48basketball, um, and then
46:51right now I have Olympic qualifying
46:53times on a treadmill on like a very good
46:55day, uh, but not in the US. I'd have to
46:57like go move to Singapore and then
46:59compete for Singapore where there's no
47:00competition. Um,
47:01but I think one of those three.
47:04>> Wow. Still any dreams? Are we going to
47:07see a Olympic run in the future?
47:09>> Uh, I have Olympic friends that are a
47:11very upset I'm not side questing to be
47:13an Olympian because they've seen me work
47:15out and they're like, you should
47:16absolutely train for the Olympics. I was
47:18recruited actually by Olympic like
47:20training groups. Yeah. But, um, no, my
47:22side quest is currently DJing.
47:24>> [laughter]
47:24>> Yeah. I love that. I don't know if you
47:26decide or plan on being a parent ever,
47:28but like, how do you feel about that?
47:29You had strict Asian parents.
47:32Do you agree with that? Did it work?
47:34Would you do it the same way? What would
47:35you change?
47:36>> Yes, I think the thing I would change is
47:37that like I wouldn't force my kids into
47:39a passion,
47:40um, and my parents actually didn't force
47:42me into like my passion, um, per se.
47:45Like they were actually wanting me to be
47:46a pharmacist cuz they're like, oh, you
47:47can work 3 days a week, like
47:49[clears throat] you'll be able to like
47:50find a good husband, get married. And I
47:52was like, that sounds like my worst
47:54nightmare working 3 days a week. I would
47:56be so bored. I don't know what I would
47:57do.
47:59So, clearly that didn't happen. But, I
48:02think that prodigies are made, and I
48:04would want to throw everything at my
48:06kids and find what they're passionate
48:08about. And I think people are generally
48:09passionate about what they're good at.
48:10So, I would figure out what they're good
48:11at
48:12and what they seem to enjoy, and then
48:15really accelerate their development in
48:17that one thing, whether it's math,
48:18whether it's like being an F1 racer.
48:21Because if you're able to get like a
48:23multi-year head start, you're just going
48:25to be above everyone else, right?
48:27>> it.
48:27>> So, I don't want to force them into
48:29passion, but once I find it, like I want
48:31them to be the very best in their
48:32passion.
48:32>> Lucy, honestly, whenever we spend time
48:35together, I laugh a lot, I learn a lot.
48:37You're exceptionally sharp and smart. I
48:39mean, I could tell you just how much you
48:41thought about the questions that you
48:43gave me answers that surprised me or
48:44ones that I've definitely not heard
48:46before.
48:46>> I'm glad. Thank you.
48:47>> Yeah. Yeah. We end every episode of On
48:49Purpose with a final five. These have to
48:51be answered in one sentence maximum.
48:53>> Okay.
48:54>> So, Lucy Guo, these are your final five.
48:56The first question is, what is the best
48:57advice you've ever heard or received?
48:59>> I mean, this is pretty simple, but I
49:01would say the best piece of advice I've
49:02ever received is just like just ask cuz
49:04the worst thing that can happen is that
49:05you get a no, and I do this for really
49:07everything in my life still. And you
49:09have to be able to handle rejection. So,
49:11be able to handle rejection and just
49:14ask.
49:14>> Perfect. Question number two, what is
49:16the worst advice you've ever heard or
49:18received?
49:19>> So, I think the worst piece of advice
49:20I've ever received is that you need to
49:22hire executives with decades-long
49:25experience to have like an adult in the
49:27company. Because especially early stage,
49:29when you have an adult in the company,
49:30what they end up doing is bloating your
49:32team up, and that's not great for early
49:34stage, obviously, because you end up
49:35burning a lot more money.
49:37>> Yeah, it's it's so interesting, isn't
49:38it? Cuz you always go through this like,
49:40do you need a young team? Do you have to
49:41bring an adult in?
49:42>> young team.
49:43>> Yeah. Very, very emphatic.
49:44>> in trouble.
49:46>> [laughter]
49:46>> You're very emphatic. Question number
49:48three, what's something that you learned
49:50at 30 that you wish you knew at 20.
49:53>> I think when people believe that you're
49:55wealthy, it is a lot easier to move
49:57around in this world. Um and I say this
50:00as someone that used to take pride in
50:02dressing in like Shein, Walmart, etc. I
50:05realized how much easier life gets if I
50:07just present myself nicer. Um it opens a
50:11lot more doors and this goes back to
50:13like your network is your net worth, but
50:15you actually do want those doors opened
50:16often times.
50:18>> Mhm. And what if what if people say
50:19things like
50:20ah, but that doesn't feel authentic to
50:22me and that's not real and I'm
50:25What's your take when people say
50:26something like that?
50:27>> I think there is a way to be presentable
50:29and still feel authentic. Um but it also
50:32depends on like are you down to have
50:33that trade-off, right? But I just
50:35remembered the change in how much easier
50:38life got and the connections I've been
50:40able to make since I stopped taking
50:43pride in dressing like a hobo.
50:45>> Yeah.
50:45>> Yeah. And like those are great
50:47connections. They've opened a lot of
50:48doors for me.
50:49>> Question number four, who are your
50:51entrepreneurial heroes?
50:53>> I actually really admire Whitney Wolfe
50:55because um we all know the story how she
50:57was kicked out of Tinder, right? But
50:59instead of, you know, sitting having
51:01victim mentality and being sad, she
51:02literally went "Fuck you." And created a
51:05direct competitor that's doing better,
51:07which is just awesome. Like I love that
51:09mentality of a fighter.
51:11>> Fifth and final question, we ask this to
51:12every guest who's ever been on the show.
51:14Lucy, if you could create one law that
51:17everyone in the world had to follow,
51:18what would it be?
51:19>> I mean, this is so basic, but I think
51:23just be nice to every human being,
51:25right? Uh I think kindness makes the
51:27world go around.
51:28>> Lucy Guo, thank you so much. Uh as I
51:31said, I've learned so much. Look forward
51:33to spending lots more time together.
51:34Excited to see what you're going to go
51:36build next.
51:36>> Yeah, lots of things. Thank you.
51:38>> is such a joy. Thank you so much for
51:40giving my audience so much of your time,
51:42your guidance, and your energy. I'm so
51:43grateful.
51:44>> Thank you for having me. This was fun.
51:45>> If you loved this episode, you'll love
51:47my conversation with Airbnb founder
51:51Brian Chesky on how to tap into your
51:53creative potential and the number one
51:56thing people get wrong about success.
51:59>> The best people in your life will be
52:01people who see potential in you that you
52:03didn't see in yourself.
52:05And I often wonder

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