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Lucrando 1MM/Mês Com VSL E Conteúdo Orgânico | Braz Cardoso - Segredos da Escala #173 — Transcript

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0:00So Dr. Frederico Porto was set to record a VSL in a week, and I had to make one. But
0:04since I was in the flow, I said, look, let's do three and record everything at
0:07once. I made three VSLs in one week, one every two days. The first VSL made a
0:11million. And a million back then, for expert VSLs, was huge.
0:14Check this out, folks, late 2022, alright? Braz was already writing
0:18seven-figure VSLs by then. We're in 2026 now, and only now are people catching on
0:23that this even exists. That's wild, man. Exactly.
0:26Is there anything you recommend? Any advice
0:29you’d give to people who want to create a VSL?
0:31So many people make this mistake today. They launch with a terrible angle, and
0:35despite a product and excellent copy, it just won't sell. Why? Because it's
0:39boring. So a market angle is crucial for the success of the campaign you're
0:43building, you know? It influences the business as a whole. Braz Cardoso.
0:47He’s written VSLs that generated nine-figure revenue for some of the
0:50biggest experts in the market. Today, he runs his own
0:53info-product business that generates seven figures in profit every month.
0:56And in this episode, he’s going to show us how he structured his operation to
1:00achieve those results. We were always fighting
1:01about this, and it became a big part of my journey:
1:03figuring out how to create more than one acquisition channel so my company doesn’t
1:06become dependent on a single funnel. A lot of people have this problem. Once you
1:09find a funnel that works, you just stick with that one funnel making money and
1:11think everything’s great. But you’re running a business. There’s no
1:14predictability, there’s nothing stable about it. What
1:16do you think is the 80/20 of backend monetization there?
1:18If you were to rebuild the Diandra business
1:21from scratch, what would you do first with
1:24the goal of maximizing profit? Money in your pocket, not revenue.
1:28This is extremely important, okay? It took us a while to understand this. We
1:31paid a high price to learn it, and it completely changed the way we do business.
1:35So, what’s the secret? What I see is this: the secret isn’t the VSL. The
1:39secret is doing what Braz is doing here, building a business model around these
1:43pillars we’ve been talking about.
1:52Today I'm having a conversation with Braz Cardoso.
1:56So folks, Braz got into digital marketing in 2020, when he was just 20. He had a
2:00bunch of failed attempts, affiliate marketing didn't work out, and a few
2:05launches didn't perform well either.
2:07Until finally, he started studying copy and realized this skill was going to
2:12change his whole trajectory. And it really did. Because in 2022, he joined an
2:16operation and started writing VSLs that began making a ton, a ton of money.
2:21And they managed to make millions for the experts at that company.
2:25And all this while barely anyone was talking
2:28about VSLs, at least in the info product market.
2:31Actually, one of the first VSLs he ever wrote is still running after all this
2:35time, and it's already hit nine figures in sales. Isn't that wild?
2:39So after that phase as a copywriter, he decided to build his own operation and
2:44brought on a partner, Diandra. Together, they pull in multiple seven figures every
2:48month, and they've built a whole product ecosystem that drives all that revenue.
2:53In other words, it's not just a funnel, not just one VSL, it's an entire
2:57ecosystem with front end, back end, and branding.
3:00So it's pretty interesting if you want to build something similar in your operation.
3:05And today here on VTurb, he showed us a ton of stuff, like how the backstage of
3:09this operation works. How he uses content to boost
3:13the VSLs he's already running... And even manage
3:16to double their conversion.
3:18How he structures a product ladder that goes all the way from cheap entry level
3:23products to consulting packages worth over a hundred thousand reais.
3:27And a bunch of other stuff too. Like how he spots bottlenecks in his own
3:31operation, how he builds his sales team, how he produces ads, and a whole lot more.
3:37And man, this episode ran long. So if you've got an info product, work in
3:41direct response, or just want a more solid business instead of relying on one
3:46funnel, stick around, because I think you'll really enjoy this chat with Braz.
3:51And in case you don't know, this podcast is called Scaling Secrets. We bring on
3:56people who've already scaled their offers, who've scaled their businesses...
4:00So you at home can walk away with one, two, maybe even three tips and apply them
4:05to scale your business too.
4:07This podcast was created by VTurb, which is a video hosting company, but not just
4:12any video hosting, it's sales video hosting.
4:15So if you've got a sales video, a VSL, a webinar, you need to host it on VTurb,
4:19just like the biggest companies in Brazil do, G4 Educação, Novo Mercado, and even
4:24some of the biggest companies in the world, like Mindvalley, a company out of
4:28Malaysia, and weirdly, they decided to host their videos on VTurb. Why? Because,
4:32man, it actually works.
4:34And to prove it, there's a video in the description, okay? It's called seven
4:37super easy ways to boost your VSL's conversion. It'll pop up on screen.
4:41Just click that little link popping up right there, and you'll go straight to
4:45the video and learn how to boost the conversion of your sales video.
4:49In that video I talk a bit about VTurb, but you can still apply everything in it
4:53without necessarily using VTurb, even though
4:55you'll see using VTurb makes it way easier.
4:58So look, if you've got a sales video, a VSL, a webinar, click that link in the
5:02description, you won't regret it, alright? Now, enough talk, let's get this
5:07podcast started. So, here he is, Braz
5:10Cardoso. Man. Welcome aboard. Thanks so much.
5:13Welcome to the VTurb podcast. How are you
5:16feeling? Amazing. Feeling amazing. You good?
5:19Yep, ready for some clips. And hey, listen, let me give you a tip, enjoy this.
5:25Because if we play some FIFA later, that smile on your face right now.
5:30It's going to disappear. Want to play FIFA later? Obviously. So go
5:33ahead and put who won up on screen, okay? Probably going to be me.
5:36This trophy back here is going in my bag. On the trip home.
5:41Man, the trophy stopped spinning. Did you turn
5:43it off, Gab? Did it just stop on its own? Wow.
5:46Anyway, I'll put some batteries in that trophy
5:49later. Man. Thanks for saying yes to this, alright?
5:53For giving some of your time and your experience here on the VTurb podcast.
5:58And folks, for anyone who doesn't know, Braz already recorded a podcast with us,
6:02it'll show up on screen. That one was a VSL
6:05roundtable. For experts. For experts, exactly.
6:09And, uh, ever since then, I... I still didn't really see you as the
6:14entrepreneur you are today.
6:18Not that I saw you badly before. I mean, I invited you onto the VTurb podcast, so
6:22I already thought you were a solid guy. But now,
6:25folks, what happened is he's working with Diandra.
6:29It's the person hiding back there.
6:33That's the woman over there wearing red and all that. Maybe something will pop up
6:37on screen. Can I put her picture up?
6:39Something of hers should show up there, folks.
6:41So then you built a way more sophisticated company. I mean, you've got
6:46a ton of products, a ton of stuff, pulling in multiple seven figures a month.
6:51And from what we talked about, you were pulling a seven figure profit margin. So,
6:56man, that's, that's wild, in my opinion, honestly. It's incredible. Because it's a
7:01really great business, man. You've got an
7:03expert, and all the funnels running for him.
7:06And it's hard for people to copy your expert. Even though, sure, people might
7:10eventually come after the rest of it.
7:12But it's not as easy to copy as, I don't know, a bakery, you know? Something like
7:16that. So it's a really solid business.
7:19So, man, I brought you on to talk about this, because I think this VSL thing is
7:23turning into a real trend.
7:25At least in the expert info product market right now, in 2026. It started
7:30picking up in 2025, but 2026 feels a bit stronger.
7:34So basically I wanted us to dig into this whole setup of yours, you know?
7:40But like, as I told you, right, we were chatting off camera earlier. Folks,
7:44Braz here is kind of eclectic, and actually, here's what I told you was
7:48going to be my first question.
7:50Because I met him at André Cia's Mastermind, who
7:53also has a VTurb podcast, it'll show up on screen.
7:56But then I went to a DigiStore event, the nutra crowd, and he was there too. He
8:00knew Poshaw. I was like, wait, hold on, you know Poshaw? Has he been on here? Not yet.
8:06Shoutout to Poshaw.
8:08So I was sitting there thinking, man, who even is this guy, you know? What does he
8:12actually do? So, man, how did you get into these digital circles? Did you come
8:16from the launch crowd? The direct response people? Did you start out with
8:20VSLs? Tell me a bit about your background so I get it.
8:24Anyway, tell me more about where you're from.
8:27Okay, good one. It's funny, actually, because.
8:29If I hadn't been expelled from the University of São Paulo, I probably
8:32wouldn't be here talking to you, right?
8:35I actually got canceled back then, right? This was during the 2020 pandemic. So,
8:38just think about that.
8:40Everything was shut down, right, it was right in the thick of the pandemic. And I
8:43ended up getting expelled. I even showed up on
8:45the national news, actually. Quite the story.
8:47And in the middle of the pandemic, I found myself broke, straight up bankrupt,
8:51with no other plan. I was living with my dad in Guarulhos at the time. And every
8:56plan I'd made for my life just fell apart
8:58overnight, you know? How old were you? I was 20.
9:02So you're 26 now. Yeah. And the pandemic was in 2020. Yeah. I'm 26.
9:06So just think, I had no other plan. Everything I'd built as a plan, becoming
9:10an executive, working at some multinational, it all went down the
9:13drain. So I found myself in a spot where I really had to think, right? And I spent
9:16a few weeks just reflecting. Until a friend of mine called me one day.
9:20And he told me about Hotmart, right? Hotmart. With this idea of working online.
9:24I said, man, I don't do scams, I don't do betting, that stuff doesn't work. Back
9:28then those things weren't even around like today. But I don't do scams.
9:31And then, two days later, I thought, man, I'm broke, I've got nothing.
9:36What am I going to do? So I called him back and said, let's do something, you
9:40know? The idea of working four hours a week to make it in seven days, this whole
9:44get rich online, passive income idea, I said, let's go.
9:47Let's do this. So when I got into this market, I realized the affiliate space
9:50was super hot at the time, right? There were a bunch of big gurus, Tiago
9:54Fonseca, for example, and plenty of others too. I ended up buying a course.
9:57Paid a hundred and ninety seven reais back then, which was crazy expensive for me.
10:01So I started studying, right? Spent a few months at it. Got into the affiliate
10:05market and started selling. I remember my first sale as an affiliate happened while
10:09I was still training. My commission was nine reais and ninety cents.
10:13And when I closed that sale I thought, man, whoa, I'm still training and already
10:17getting money in my account, that's it, I'm going to be a millionaire. Done deal,
10:20you know? From here on it's all passive
10:23income, let's go. Was that with paid traffic?
10:25It was paid traffic through Google, Google Ads. I started with Google Ads,
10:29not Meta. I never really liked spreadsheets back then. Bottom of the funnel?
10:32Bottom of the funnel, yeah. Back then I didn't even know that, I just saw how it
10:35was done and copied it, you know?
10:37But it didn't take long, obviously, to realize that whole thing was a bust,
10:40right? I had zero knowledge, zero experience, didn't know anything about
10:43traffic or marketing. I was never a marketer back then.
10:46So I stopped, right? I realized I'd have to
10:48go a lot deeper to actually get any results.
10:51So at the end of 2020, start of 2021, I discovered the launch market. Érico
10:55Rocha. I even remember a launch he was
10:57running. And out of everything he was studying
11:00and showing in that launch, I realized that
11:02between traffic, design, video editing, project management, copy was the thing I
11:05actually knew how to do. I really liked writing. And at the time I thought, well,
11:08it's the least bad option, I'll just keep doing this, that's it. And that's when I
11:12decided to really dig into it, right?
11:14But when I actually dug into it, I fell in love with copy. That was early 2020
11:17one. I loved it a lot, because.
11:19The whole idea of convincing someone and taking them from point A to point B,
11:23toward whatever idea you want, that made total sense in my head, you know? It was
11:26really sexy, really appealing to me. So I dove in headfirst, right? I didn't have
11:30money at the time, so I grabbed a pirated Empiricus course from back then.
11:34And since there weren't many people here in Brazil selling copy, and only a
11:37handful of relevant players, I started studying a ton of stuff from abroad. The
11:41response market out there. I didn't even know what direct response was.
11:45So I started studying, executing a ton, testing everything out, until I finally
11:49said, man, I'm ready, let's go, this is it.
11:51This is what was missing, I'm going to get rich.
11:54I went to run a launch, and met two guys in a group on...
11:58Facebook. I brought them together and did the first launch. And it flopped.
12:02I thought, well, first launch, it happens, I'll get rich on the next one.
12:05Then after that I went and did the second one, and it flopped again.
12:09I thought... Érico Rocha talks about needing seven launches before your first
12:12one actually works. So that's what's missing.
12:14I'll do one more launch. This time it'll work.
12:15And then, damn, it went wrong again. That's when I started realizing I needed
12:20a bit more of a shortcut, to learn faster, whether
12:23that meant working for someone, or joining some
12:26other operation. That's when, heading into 2022...
12:31My life and professional mentor, Marcos Duda, gave me an opportunity. He saw
12:35potential in me and gave me an opportunity. And I was so ready.
12:39Really hungry for results, right at the start of 2022. And he invested a lot in me.
12:45So every mastermind, every group, every immersion, anything I could get
12:50my hands on, I'd tell him, and he'd get me in there, he'd give me access.
12:56So I started studying like crazy, and I hadn't had much success yet, until I
13:00decided to write a sales letter for a college.
13:03I can't say which one, contract reasons.
13:06And when I wrote that sales letter, it sold thirty million. Guess what I
13:09charged, I was just freelancing back then. Guess what I charged
13:141000... 5000? 2000. 2000 reais, plus a swipe
13:17file. That's what I got out of that deal, 2K
13:21and a swipe file... And that's when something crazy
13:24happened. By then, almost two years had passed
13:27since I started out as an affiliate, and I realized two things. First, that
13:31everything I'd studied actually worked, it got results, it made money.
13:35And second, and this is something I tell my copywriters a lot when I'm training
13:39someone, I started having confidence when I wrote. That made a huge difference for
13:44me. So I always say, look, if you're confident when you write...
13:48Your campaign's conversion changes because you're more willing to take
13:51risks. You're more willing to push your arguments. And that boosts conversion, as
13:54long as you've got the technical foundation down...
13:57And at Marcos Duda's company, there were some experts doing launches. It was
14:01mostly a launch-focused company.
14:04And there was Dr. Frederico Porto, my first case, I'll tell you more soon.
14:08There was Rita, a bunch of people in there. I said, look, I've learned a ton,
14:12let me run these campaigns with your experts. I remember, this was late 2022,
14:17So Dr. Frederico Porto was set to record a VSL in a week, and I had to make one.
14:23But since I was in the flow, I said, look, let's do three and record
14:26everything at once. I made three VSLs in one week, one every two days. And the
14:30first VSL made a million, and a million back then, for expert VSLs, was huge.
14:34And the second VSL... Was that in 2022? Late 2022, between October and November.
14:39Check this out, folks, late 2022, okay... So Braz
14:43was already writing seven-figure VSLs by then.
14:47We're in 2026 now, and only now are people
14:50catching on that this even exists. That's wild, man
14:53Exactly. So, actually, that second VSL, the Neuroproductivity one, my first real
14:57case with an expert, that's a nine-figure VSL.
15:00And it's still selling to this day. Man...
15:03Like I told you, during this podcast, I can interrupt you.
15:07So I'm gonna interrupt you now, okay? Because that's my job. My job here is to
15:11interrupt people and get them talking, right guys?
15:14So... Man, why do you think that actually happened?
15:19Why did it take the info product market so long to start adopting VSLs
15:25Back then, when you were at... at that agency, Marcos Duda's agency...
15:31Did you notice bias against, like... Why do you think the market... took so
15:35long? Do you know why?
15:37I don't think the market took long, I think it moves in phases, you know. Some
15:41things work better, some work less, but the basics always work.
15:46Back then, what was working best, what was really hot, was launches. So it
15:50didn't make sense to test some other kind of sales method at that time, when
15:53launches were crushing it and growing exponentially. So people only looked at
15:57launches, the same way they'd only looked at
15:59affiliate marketing before that, you know...
16:02And obviously, there's a cost to that. If you only focus on one thing and don't
16:06diversify your acquisition channels, your
16:08operation gets a bit more fragile, let's say.
16:11For example, today we still have launches,
16:13but we also have VSL, we have a sales team.
16:16So... that leaves some gaps of vulnerability
16:19for your operation and your team.
16:22So I think it's just about timing. Since one thing was already working, people
16:25ended up not looking at other options. And
16:27there weren't many similar things back then.
16:29Man, I think... in 2022 Late 2022. Yeah.
16:32I think... we already had VTurb, man.
16:36VTurb already existed. I think it did. As I recall, we used it.
16:40So I... I had... I started, I actually started making
16:45multiple seven figures back in 2018. And we used VSL. Not with VTurb though.
16:51Yeah. We used Vimeo. And then we used
16:54Vidalytics. And after that we built VTurb.
16:57Wow, you were old school. That's it. Didn't wanna
17:00keep paying, so I thought, let me build my own.
17:03But, man... These days... the info
17:07product market is super hot for VSLs, so, man,
17:11there are a lot of people who are doing this. And a lot of them,
17:17even in the same setup you use And Diandra's too, right.
17:22So there's a lot of couples where the guy's the strategist and the woman's the
17:26expert. It's wild, honestly, really, really good. And it works out great, man,
17:30everybody makes a ton of money. It really works out. It works. And the
17:33couple thing, I dunno, maybe 'cause they're
17:35united, same purpose, I dunno, but I know that...
17:38It works out great. They make bank.
17:41So... So since you were writing VSLs...
17:46back then... 2022, 2021... And... it worked.
17:51How'd you learn how to do that?
17:54And nowadays, what do you think the people watching us at home should do.
17:59Maybe the guy's got a woman he's launching for, or maybe someone just
18:03wants to actually learn this funnel. What do you think they should do, in
18:07terms of the 80/20, to learn how to write a VSL?
18:10Because what you did probably wasn't 80/20. You probably messed up a ton
18:13before learning that this is the right way. Totally.
18:16So tell me, what'd you do, and what's the right advice for folks at home.
18:20Man, I think the first point is about not settling, you know. I never accepted...
18:25Doing basic stuff. I never accepted just doing the same old thing. So I
18:29studied a lot, that's the first point. If you don't know the basics of marketing,
18:32if you don't understand the minimum about sales and psychology, it's really hard to
18:36build a lasting company, to actually turn a profit, to have real success in your
18:40business. So the first stage, the first moment,
18:42is refusing to settle. The second point is...
18:45Really understanding the market. And that's
18:48super important... Because I see a lot
18:51of people just copying and pasting funnels.
18:53And that's never productive, because you never actually grow.
18:57So if you develop a sense for market analysis, understanding what's going
19:02on... then you can then apply that to your own company or funnel, especially
19:06if you're just starting out.
19:08Bring in things the market's already validated. So, to sum it all up, develop
19:13a sense for the market, to understand what's working, and more importantly,
19:18understand where you can launch a product
19:21that actually appeals to the market, a well-executed product market fit. So I
19:26see a lot of people messing up the product,
19:29messing up the offer, selling stuff nobody wants.
19:32So that sensitivity is what develops the ability to find market gaps where you can
19:38scale faster. So that's the main point, in my opinion.
19:42The rest is technical. It's like, writing the VSL, uploading the video, that's
19:45technical. But I see that sensitivity is something very few people have these days.
19:50And do you think that... Can that be developed?
19:53I've got a theory... About how to do that.
19:58I believe that...
20:01So, like, that sensitivity you mentioned, if I
20:04understood you right, correct me if I'm wrong.
20:07But from what I understood... It's knowing what's actually going to sell.
20:12What product should someone create that they can actually...
20:16Actually manage to make something people want. Yeah.
20:20And the way to do that is basically being
20:22able to read the market's sophistication level
20:24and seeing which mechanisms are being promised out there. And then I need a
20:29mechanism that's superior to what people are... offering. And sometimes not
20:33superior in terms of efficiency, but in terms of proof.
20:36To make people believe the product's good, and then I can position my product
20:41like, look, everyone in the market's talking about thing X, so I can talk
20:45about thing X plus one, or thing Y.
20:47Yeah, I see it that way too, but especially for someone starting out, they
20:51need to understand the basics work, the basics always work.
20:54So I see people wanting to over-sophisticate the funnel, or the
20:57offer, or the product, when they haven't even done basic research on what pain
21:00point or desire in the market they can actually solve.
21:03If that pain isn't strong enough, if there's not a huge audience for it, it
21:07won't scale. Even if you're the best copywriter
21:09in the world, or hire the best one. So...
21:11Knowing how to identify the market's pain points and desires, and applying that to
21:15a solution you already have, that's one of the biggest differentiators. I don't
21:19think many people have that awareness, that
21:20level of consciousness. So that's the main point.
21:23Yeah, really. That's the foundation of everything.
21:27If you don't have that... then you don't even...
21:31There's not even a point building a funnel for that.
21:34You could have the best copy, but with no audience
21:37and no market fit, it just won't work. Yeah.
21:39Yeah, but look, just imagine that the folks watching us right now, I mean,
21:43they're actually working in a niche that has demand, and, well, they know there's
21:48demand because they run product launches,
21:51and they already know the thing sells, right?
21:54So let's say, they want to become a Braz, or have a Braz in their operation, I
21:59mean, someone who can eventually produce those really good VSLs, you know? Do
22:04you think there's any resource you would recommend? For example, there's that book
22:09by Evaldo Albuquerque, "The 16-Word Sales Letter".
22:13But I don't even consider that a great resource for VSLs yet, because the truth
22:17is, man, it teaches copywriting principles, right? So you have to be able
22:22to think a little and adapt things. Then there's that course, which is actually
22:26about VSLs, Stefan Georgi's RMBC. And funnily enough, guys, the very first
22:31podcast I recorded here on VTurb was with Stefan, which is popping up on the screen.
22:36So there are those resources out there, but they're in English, right? And so, I
22:41don't know if you have any tips for people to
22:45take that step and really ride this VSL wave too.
22:48Or if you honestly don't have, 'cause your process was super organic. And up
22:52until now, you told me - and I took note of it - that you learned a lot by doing,
22:57mostly at Marcos Duda's agency. But, you also
23:00mentioned that you studied a lot, right? Yeah, right.
23:03Do you think you have something, like a clear path you could give to these guys
23:07who want to write VSLs?
23:08Yeah, I think repertoire is the number one thing for building a VSL today. It's
23:13one of the pillars I use when I hire a copywriter — any professional, really,
23:17but especially someone who's gonna write campaigns for the people watching.
23:21So without repertoire, without a basic read on what's working in the market,
23:26it's really hard to develop the instinct to write. Because here's the problem.
23:30Sometimes people might not have the cash flow to hire an elite copywriter, or the
23:35marketing knowledge to write highly technical copy that hits every single
23:39stage. But if they have that repertoire, understand what's happening in the
23:43market, and can translate that... I mean, obviously,
23:46you need some basic sales knowledge, right?
23:49I think that's a really important point. If the person isn't afraid to sell and
23:53has a good repertoire, they can build a minimally scalable offer, you know?
23:57So repertoire, to me, is one of the main things. For example, every copywriter who
24:01joins our company, I tell them straight up: "Man, you're gonna have to study
24:05macroeconomics, you're gonna have to study what's happening in the market,
24:09what's happening in other markets. You have to study." Why? Because ideas have
24:13sex, right? That's a marketing concept — ideas have sex.
24:16So for someone who has absolutely zero copywriting knowledge, if they have
24:20repertoire, they have a real chance of carving out a space for themselves in the
24:24market. Got it? Yeah. And, man, like, what exactly
24:27do you think that repertoire is? I mean, is
24:29there a specific resource you consider to be the main one, or is it just something
24:34you pick up on during the interview?
24:36I break repertoire down into three points, okay? The first part of
24:40repertoire is experience, personal baggage. There's even a movie, I think
24:44it's "21", if I'm not mistaken, where the guy is trying to get into Harvard and to
24:49get a full ride scholarship.
24:50So, he's asked: "Man, what's the craziest thing that's ever happened in your life?"
24:55That was the ultimate question for him to get in. Why? Because if you have personal
25:00experience, man, you probably have repertoire, and that matters in any life
25:04scenario. So point number one, personal experience.
25:07Second point is the ability to study and absorb information happening in
25:11real-time, whether that's on a macroeconomic level, like I said,
25:15political market trends, or studying technically, you know? They need to build
25:19that foundation to understand things. So when they put all this together, they can
25:24generate more ideas, and more ideas breed new ideas, right?
25:27That's a whole concept. So that's how I see it. Yeah, right man.
25:31Really nice. And from what I understand then, I mean, going back to
25:35what you were saying, you started out as an affiliate and then went to work at a
25:40product launch agency. But then you started writing VSLs inside that launch
25:45agency, right? Man, who was the very first person that steered you in that
25:49direction? Was it Marcos who said, "Bro, let's make VSLs"? Like, why didn't he
25:54just put you on launches? look, at the time, I
25:57remember there was this immersion called, I
25:59think it was Copy Secrets Immersion, something
26:02like that, with Denis Bai, Elias Maman, and Derek
26:05Melo. I don't know if you ever met those guys.
26:08Yeah, I met Denis, I met Elias, but not the third guy. Derek? Yeah, Derek.
26:12Man, to me Derek is one of the best copywriters who's ever written in Brazil.
26:16You've got to meet him. There's the blind copywriter. blind copywriter?
26:21Ahh. That one I know. It's a different Derek. Derick Carneiro.
26:25This other Derick isn't blind. But he's been off the radar, I don't know what
26:29happened... Anyway, those guys had been scaling VSLs for a long time, both in
26:34Brazil and the US. And the first workshop I went to on cold traffic copy was theirs.
26:39back then we were doing lots of launches, and Marcos Duda said: "Man, it's another
26:43acquisition channel". And we were always wrestling with that - it's been part of
26:47my whole journey. Like, how do I build more than one acquisition channel so my
26:50company isn't held hostage by a single funnel?
26:53'cause a lot of people fall into this trap, right, where once you nail a
26:56funnel, you just stick with that one funnel printing money, and great, but
27:00what about the company? There's zero predictability. So at that moment, he
27:03said, "Let's do this 'cause it'll give us a competitive edge, nobody else is doing
27:07it." And we had a bunch of experts there who said, "Let's test it, let's fail, and
27:11let's crush it," you know?
27:12So Marcos Duda brought the idea? Yeah. Man, what a smart
27:15guy, dude. Yeah, it was clever. Shoutout to Marcos.
27:18You totally nailed that one. Yeah, it worked out great.
27:21Later on we made mistakes, but we failed really fast,
27:24right? And that's the beauty of the direct response marketing. If you have an
27:28unvalidated campaign, you can just pause it, restructure it, and try selling it
27:33again. So we failed fast and cheap. That's crazy, man. This
27:36market is so much better, dude. The product launch guys
27:38really suffer out there, you know? But they also made a ton of money... so
27:42at least it was working out really well for you.
27:45I think the people with the most cash, real profit in their pockets, used to be
27:49the launch crowd. Now I think the Nutra guys are making a lot of money, but
27:52honestly, the true state of the art right now is you guys - the info product crowd
27:57who have a VSL on the front-end and a massive ascension funnel on the back-end,
28:01which is exactly what you do today, right?
28:03Exactly. And then... Yeah... That and a bit
28:06more, right? Yeah, at least that's my read
28:08on it. A VSL right on the front-end bringing
28:11people in. The margins are super high. Right! It gets absolutely insane, you know?
28:15And I mean, the product costs nothing, the margin is high, so it's kind of a
28:19money-printing machine, right? Yeah, one important
28:22thing though, the product doesn't have direct costs, but
28:25there are indirect costs. People tend to overlook that. "Oh, I'm going to make an
28:29info product, there's zero cost." Hold on, there are costs like platform fees,
28:34team payroll, and refund rates, those are costs, right?
28:37So there are several indirect costs people ignore. This is super important, I
28:41see a lot of people messing this up. The margins are higher, 'cause you have no
28:45inventory, you don't have to manufacture anything. But it has costs and people
28:49tend to forget that. Yeah, no doubt. Look man,
28:51maybe I'll touch on that cost thing later. I don't
28:54know yet, I'll think about it, okay? But tell me this, you started writing VSLs
28:58over at Marcos Duda's, right? But then, how did that transition happen, you know,
29:03becoming an entrepreneur and all that? Keep going with the story. Alright.
29:07When I wrote those VSLs for Porto, I was one of the first guys to hit
29:11100K a day back then, doing it with an expert - of course, some Nutra
29:15people were doing it. And I really started enjoying it. We saw massive
29:18potential 'cause few people were doing it. The market works like that: if very
29:23few people use a specific sales model, man, you
29:25get huge margins 'cause competition is lower.
29:28So it's super important to look at that. I started hitting home runs one after
29:32another, because few people were doing VSLs. Then I moved into the relationship
29:36niche, hit another 100K a day with Rita Rostirolla, I think the offer was
29:40'Gypsy Tricks', that fateful copy, you know?
29:43C'mom man, say it. Let's see if you have the guts.
29:45Man, I used to write a lot for the relationship niche. It was where I sold
29:49the most, you know? Mostly aimed relationship
29:53advice for women. And there was this mechanism.
29:56Oh my God, dude. And the mechanism for this VSL, I
30:00mean... Wasn't it a bonus? That cowgirl position thing?
30:04In fact, it was a deliverable, but acting kind of like a mechanism. And then I
30:08thought: "Man, how can I stand out here?
30:11How can I find a loophole in the market so I can scale this?" And then it just
30:15came out of nowhere, there was zero technical strategy behind it...
30:20was purely repertoire, you know? And well, so I sat there and thought:
30:24"Alright, cowgirl position, cool, solid mechanism, but it needs to sound weird."
30:29Then I was like, "Damn, Mona Lisa's Cowgirl." That's it, you know?
30:34And then when I said that for the first time, everyone was like, "Oh my God, what
30:39the hell is that?" It worked, it caught on. So I used it in the copy, obviously.
30:43And we scaled that copy hard. I think it was one of the first relationship copies
30:48for women — for men there were already a few
30:51— to hit a hundred grand a day back then.
30:54There's a... I mean, there are actually several copy frameworks that we
30:58use out there today. For instance, you've got the Empiricus frameworks, which are
31:03pretty closed off, very focused on the financial market.
31:07But dude, this thing of yours, you know, that exact phrase, 'Mona Lisa's Cowgirl'
31:12- that really spikes curiosity, and I actually see a lot of influence there
31:17from old-school direct mail copywriters, right? Guys who wrote curiosity-driven
31:22copy with hooks that provoke you, where you just have to know what's going on.
31:26It's provocative. You have to move, you have to take action. Either you watch it,
31:30or you go scratch that itch.
31:32And I'll tell you this, man — it's actually pretty easy to find a copywriter
31:36who knows a standard copy structure and just follows it. But actually coming up
31:41with something like this? Dude, that's something else. And I mean, what you
31:45created there could easily be a headline, like, "Hey, discover the Mona Lisa
31:49Cowgirl," and turn into a whole sex e-book,
31:52you know? You used it as a deliverable, a bonus
31:55for the core product. But man, I think that
31:58requires a much more sophisticated copywriter
32:01'Cause it requires this intuition of like, "Oh, this is something curious, it
32:05makes sense, it's exactly what the prospect wants, but it has this unique
32:09twist." And when you said Mona Lisa, dude, that just triggers so many impulses
32:12in a person's brain, like, "What do you mean, bro? Mona Lisa, like the painting?"
32:17Like, damn, dude! Like, what does that even have to do
32:19with it? Like, what the hell is that? It's just insanely
32:22curious. Yeah, people have to stop and check it out.
32:25Absolutely. And man, do you know how you developed that?
32:28You mean - the phrase? I mean, that ability to find
32:32these angles that might be real, but at the
32:34same time they provoke, they make the person imagine things, and they generate
32:39massive curiosity, you know?
32:41'cause that is one of the most powerful copywriting skills you can have. And
32:45there's this guy, Gary Bencivenga, whose picture is going to pop up on the screen
32:50for you guys - and one exercise he told people to do to get good at copy was to
32:54write five bullets every single day.
32:56Which are basically those curiosity-driven sentences, they can also
33:00be called fascinations. And I'm going to put a document, right down in the
33:03description, which if I'm not mistaken, has 28 types of bullets. And it was
33:07created by a legendary copywriter, Clayton Makepeace. So it's going to be
33:11down there for you guys to study a bit more, alright? But, like, it doesn't
33:14cover what he's talking about here, 'cause it's too advanced.
33:18Over there, the bullets are more like: "How to do XYZ," or "Why you shouldn't do
33:23yadayada", or "the secret to whatever", and so on.
33:26But yours goes completely beyond that, you know? I don't know if that's even a
33:30conscious thing for you, maybe it's not, because I'm seeing that your journey has
33:34been super organic, like: "Oh, I just went in, did the work, and learned as I
33:38went." But if you had to transfer that skill to someone else, do you think you'd
33:42know how to do it? I mean, is there a way to teach that street smarts, you know?
33:46'cause I think that is what stops a lot of people from writing seven-figure VSLs.
33:51They can write a six-figure VSL if they follow a basic structure - which is
33:55already really good, right guys? I mean, it's awesome...
33:59But to actually have that edge, to have that gut feeling, that little Braz trick,
34:03just pure street smarts, that wisdom from the trenches, I think that's next level,
34:08bro. And I've never been able to pass that on to anyone, honestly. I don't know
34:13if you're just born with it, or if it's a cognitive thing you develop as you study
34:18more copy. So what's your take, man, on having that edge? Man,
34:21you said something I completely disagree with: that this is a
34:24sophisticated level of copy. I don't think it's sophisticated at all, it's the
34:28copywriter's obligation to have those ideas. 'Oh, but the copywriter is
34:32crushing it, he just doesn't have that level of
34:35awareness yet."' Bro, then he's not a copywriter.
34:37He's just really good at copying and modeling, but he's not a copywriter. So,
34:41for the copywriter, again, it all comes back to repertoire. If he has no
34:45repertoire, if he doesn't know those proven bullet structures you mentioned,
34:49and he lacks the ability to create new things based on that, then he simply
34:53isn't a copywriter, okay?
34:55So, I completely disagree, you know? It's the copywriter's absolute obligation. At
34:59our company, I always tell the team: 'Guys, you have to study market swipe
35:03files and bullet techniques.' Gary Bencivenga has this document with I don't
35:07know how many bullets, maybe a hundred, if I'm not mistaken.
35:11So we study him. Gary Halbert, man, one of the best at bullets and headlines I
35:15know. So if you study them and the market, you can piece things together. A
35:19copywriter who doesn't know how to create from scratch isn't a copywriter. That
35:23just doesn't fly today. In fact, this might even be controversial, but I see a lot of
35:28copywriters ramping up quickly, I see copywriters going from junior to
35:32mid-level to senior in just six months. That's impossible.
35:36It's literally impossible, I'd bet my life on it. If you lack the basic
35:39awareness to create new angles, that's a massive differentiator, especially for
35:43info products, where you can't just copy others or hit CTRL C, CTRL V. A
35:46copywriter who can't create original stuff
35:48shouldn't even put 'copywriter' in their bio, right?
35:51Like, some people put "Oh, 8D copywriter" in their bio. Damn, no, there's just no
35:55way, you get me? So I don't think it's a natural gift, it's a trainable skill that
36:00every copywriter needs to have. Got it? Yeah. And, man,
36:03the main resource you use for that would be the one from Bencivenga?
36:07Yeah, I studied those bullets a ton. But how did I study them in practice?
36:11I mean, I'd read them whenever I was about to write a campaign, just getting
36:15new ideas, you know? For example: 'The number one golden rule for X, Y, Z,' - oh
36:20man, I can totally adapt that to my niche. 'The number one golden rule to
36:24drive a guy crazy for you,' or whatever. I just kept tweaking them until I had
36:28enough repertoire to create brand new things. Got it?
36:31That was basically it. Yeah. Got it, bro, really
36:34good stuff. But then what? Like, you wrote the VSLs
36:37there, they crushed it, and you started standing out more over at Marcos' agency,
36:41right? Yeah, not just at Marcos' agency, okay? 'Cause like, Porto was a massive case
36:46study - my first big one, right? I even gave a lecture on that VSL 'cause it was
36:50so cool - and still is. Can you share what was the result for it, man? Nine
36:54figures. Over these past few years it hit nine figures. It was incredibly
36:57good, and held a Roas of like three at high scale. I honestly didn't even have
37:02that awareness back then, I didn't realize it was that much money. A 3 Roas
37:06spending 100k a day, such a sick result. Excellent, indeed. Yeah,
37:10killer result. Especially for an expert. And all that was back in 2022?
37:14Early 2023, man. And then I kept writing campaigns throughout that year, until at
37:18the end of the year, an institute invited me to join—Instituto Experience, you
37:23know? They're currently one of the biggest direct response companies in
37:27Brazil and in the world. Dude, the team there is incredibly
37:30good. Yeah, in Brazil and the world. Those guys are badass.
37:33it's a nine-figure a year company. Guys, Gustavo's podcast
37:36episode is going to pop up right here on the screen, okay?
37:40For anyone who wants to learn more about that company, those guys are extremely
37:44disciplined and smart. And we have a bunch of other podcast episodes with
37:48people who used to work there too. We have Diogo Gomes - like two or three
37:51episodes. And some other people. But anyway, moving on, you went to work there.
37:56And they were looking to expand a... well, looking to expand their direct
38:00response division, right? This in 2023? Late '23, yeah,
38:03late 2023. Why did you leave Marcos? I didn't. You worked
38:06for both? Yeah, man. I just ran them in parallel. And do
38:10you think that's a good idea? Would you do that again?
38:13"I would definitely do it again. First, it accelerated my learning curve—and
38:17obviously, I wasn't hiding it, right? Both guys understood I was running
38:20multiple operations. With the institute, it was purely a timing thing. They were
38:24developing their direct response division for experts back then. I already had
38:28solid results and experience. The guys were like, 'Let's go,' and we teamed up.
38:33It was really cool at the institute 'cause I got there in late '23 and it was
38:36heavily focused on experts. Then I caught the transition when they started
38:40targeting the US market. We went through that whole phase—failing, validating,
38:44testing hypotheses—and really tightened the screws on the operation. I was there
38:48through the entire ramp-up phase, which was
38:50super cool, learning so much about the market.
38:53And was that when you, you know, really saw this US market, like, Nutra
38:57offers and all of that for the first time? Yeah, exactly.
39:00I had already been studying it a lot, but I officially
39:03stepped into the US market at the institute around mid-2024. There, I
39:07understood two extremely important things. First, I learned a ton about
39:12funnels, and I realized the US was absolute top tier.
39:15Like, major league, you know? I thought major league was what we were doing here.
39:19But in the US, if you lack a competitive edge, a hardcore offer, and a strong
39:23product, man, you get eaten alive. Here in Brazil, we have more breathing room,
39:27right? Up there, zero room for error. So I learned a ton about funnels and scaling
39:31efficiency, which is critical.
39:33I also learned a lot about market angles and superstructures, which I think is a
39:37game changer, it creates a massive
39:39differentiator, right? Break down those concepts
39:41for us. So, like, I always give this example
39:43about Lari, who was an expert we had over
39:45there. Look, everybody loves traveling, but nobody wants to learn about airline
39:49miles. If I come up to you right now and say, "Dude, I'm going to sell you a
39:52course where you'll learn everything about miles, mileage brokers, trading
39:56points, and staying up late to buy cheap
39:58tickets," would you want it? Oh man, not really...
40:02Boring, right? Super dull. Not my cup of tea. Now, what if I
40:05told you that I have a course that lets you travel the entire
40:08world for pennies. Would you want that? Yeah, man...
40:12It's the exact same thing, just a different market angle. So many people
40:15make this mistake today. They launch with a terrible angle, and despite a killer
40:19product and excellent copy, it just won't sell. Why? Because it's boring. For
40:23example, Diandra: we build personal brands, organic audiences.
40:27If I came up to you and said: 'Man, I'm going to teach you everything about the
40:31algorithm, content formats, Instagram metrics, hook rates, skip rates for your
40:35posts,' would you want it? You'd be like, 'Damn, that's boring.' Now, if I come to
40:39you and say: 'João, I'm going to teach you exactly how you can build massive
40:43authority on Instagram, be recognized as a true expert, and reach thousands of
40:47people so you can sell to them.' Would you want it? Yeah. see what I mean?
40:51So a market angle is crucial for the success of the campaign you're building,
40:55you know? It influences the business as a whole. If you nail the right market
40:59angle, if you have a rock-solid angle thesis, man, everything else just happens
41:03way more organically. That's the whole point, right? And the superstructure?
41:07The superstructure is similar, it's just a bit more complex, but basically...
41:12like, it's one of the most powerful sales concepts I've ever seen, okay? A
41:16superstructure is when you take something people already believe to be true, and
41:20you give it an entirely new meaning. Like, there was... I still remember an
41:24example from India to this day, just so people can really grasp it. In India,
41:28people have a lot of kids, right?
41:30They have seven, eight kids, it's a massive overpopulation issue, right,
41:34because of this huge influx of people being born.
41:38And I mean, people usually associate having lots of kids with pure
41:42virility—like, the guy has the physical stamina to make babies, right? So, what
41:46if I pitch you: 'Man, I'll show you the hidden secret why Indian men have so many
41:51kids.' Do you see what I mean? Can you see the angle? Obviously, that's a
41:55bizarre example, but it makes the concept crystal clear.
41:59So when you take something that people already have deeply ingrained in their
42:02minds and you give it a completely new meaning, your chances of making the sale
42:06skyrocket. You get it? That is extremely important.
42:09Yeah, you’re basically using a form of proof that the market already accepts as
42:12true, and because of that, your message becomes much more believable and credible
42:16to the audience. Exactly. I see a lot of people
42:18making this mistake too, and I think it’s really
42:20important to talk about it. Sometimes people want to prove that their solution
42:24is good, but how do they actually try to prove that? They try to create a
42:28completely new desire in people’s minds, you know, instead of working with a
42:31desire that’s already there.
42:33So, man, people like, doctors like making money, for example. We were talking about
42:36this, right? Doctors like making money. I’m not going to tell a doctor, “You
42:40can’t make money. You have to save lives, and that’s all you should care about.” If
42:43a doctor wants to make money, you use that existing desire to help prove your
42:47thesis and your solution. You don’t create a new desire, and you don’t fight
42:50against what people already want.
42:51You know? If you use a desire that people already have and understand to lead them
42:55toward your solution, you can create a really strong offer, one that you can
42:59scale very aggressively. Yeah, I understand...
43:01Man, do you think... actually, where would you say
43:04you learned the most throughout your career as a copywriter? Like, what
43:08experiences really taught you the most along the way?
43:12Was it working on Marcos’s launch operation, or was it at the institute,
43:15where you had more of that direct-response marketing approach,
43:18actually selling the offer right there? What do you think shaped you the most
43:22throughout your career? Or do you think it was really the combination of those
43:26two experiences that made you unique? Definitely,
43:29a combination of both, because, when you...
43:32When I understood more about direct-response marketing in the United
43:35States versus what I needed to build here in Brazil for experts, I realized you
43:39have to combine efficiency and scale, like I said, with, I wouldn’t really call
43:42it creativity, but coming up with new ideas and new ways to sell to experts,
43:45which is a little more difficult, right? Because when you’re selling
43:48nutraceuticals and things like that, there aren’t that many different
43:51directions or angles you can really follow from a copywriting perspective, right?
43:55It’s a little more rigid, more structured and
43:57restrictive. You can follow them, but the people
43:59who don’t, you know, they’re basically just being lazy, so to speak.
44:03Yeah, lazy and when you try to move away from what the market is doing, when you
44:07have so many people doing the same thing, if you deviate even a little, you end up
44:11losing momentum, right? That’s why people tend to copy so much.
44:15I think they copy because of what you said, man, they just keep modeling what’s
44:18already working. Because, you know, there’s always some crazy guy who comes
44:21up with something first, maybe it’s Stefan, who’s going to show up on the
44:24screen, or Derick too, Derick is really good. But the vast majority just go out
44:28there modeling everything like crazy, copying what
44:30they see, and then it all becomes very cyclical.
44:33In 2023, around that time, I think, right? When you were working with Marcos,
44:37I believe story-based leads were really
44:39popular and were being used a lot back then.
44:42So much so that I validated a few of them. It was always a
44:45story-based lead: “I don’t know who, my life was really bad, I
44:48almost died, but… I’m really grateful. If it weren’t for
44:51that, I wouldn’t have known about that Himalayan salt trick.
44:54The real cause of whatever. And then that kind of stopped, and now, these days, we
44:59have a lot of secret-based leads. So today, the market, yeah, everybody has,
45:03“The whatever, the trick to doing this, the whatever method.” And now, basically
45:07everyone is using secret-based leads, you know?
45:10Even you, sitting there having lunch, right?
45:12When you mentioned that Braz made a call for you, did you use a secret-based lead?
45:16Because that was what really stuck in your head,
45:18right? That whatever factor... The addictive
45:20connection, yeah. That’s a secret-based lead. You
45:23introduce a secret, then make the argument, and
45:25reveal the argument afterward.
45:26It’s in that book, Great Leads, guys, which is going to appear on the screen.
45:30There are six different types of leads in there.
45:32If I remember correctly, this is lead number four.
45:34There’s the lead that generates a solution, a proclamation. So I think
45:37people don’t do it because they’re lazy, you know? Then there’s the offer. The guy
45:40could even do it, but, damn, I think it’s
45:42for another level of awareness and all that.
45:44Yeah, a bit more conscious, right? A deeper subject.
45:47But, Braz, assuming, man, that the infoproduct market is looking to benefit
45:51from the skill you have, because, man, I think you recognize that what you guys
45:54have built is really good, right? It’s a great business, it’s something that’s
45:58really solid, and I think the market can really
46:00benefit from what you guys know how to do.
46:02You make good revenue, you make good profit.
46:04Yeah, great business. It’s an excellent business.
46:07And a lot of people want to have that business. They
46:09want to be able to implement those direct-response marketing flows.
46:13But the guy is a business owner, and sometimes he doesn’t know who he should
46:16hire or how to do it. He’s kind of like Marcos Duda, he wants to learn how it
46:20works and build that department inside his company.
46:23If you were going to recommend someone for him, do you think he should find a
46:26person who already comes from that world of capsules, direct-response marketing,
46:30and nutraceuticals, and then have that person actually study and learn this
46:34whole expert and infoproduct business, understand how it works, and apply those
46:38skills in that market Or do you think he should
46:40hire a copywriter who comes from the launch
46:42world and have that person study VSLs and learn more about that whole
46:46direct-response approach first? I think you’re a little bit of both, right,
46:49man? Looking at your background.
46:51Because you worked at the institute, and, man, that institute is no joke. If
46:54someone says you didn’t work at a professional direct-response marketing
46:57company, that’s just not true, because you worked at one of the most
46:59professional companies in the market. So I think the knowledge you gained there,
47:03based on everything you’re telling me, really added a lot to your background,
47:06you know? And that’s why, if I were going to recommend something to the people
47:09watching at home, I think I’d recommend exactly that.
47:11Take someone who’s already deep in the world of nutraceuticals and
47:14direct-response marketing in the U.S., one of those old-school direct-response
47:18guys, and bring them into the infoproduct space.
47:21If you take a copywriter who’s used to doing launches and have them learn this
47:25whole VSL approach, it could work. It could, you know, I’m not sure, but in
47:29theory, we already have a validated path right in front of us, something that’s
47:33been proven to work. So, what do you think about that?
47:36The first thing a person needs to understand is what their business goals
47:39are and where they want to go. That’s extremely important. So, man, you have to
47:43understand that depending on the type of professional you bring in, there are
47:47benefits and drawbacks, you know?
47:49So, what do I see? Obviously, I’m not trying to generalize. Someone from the
47:53direct-response world tends to be more aggressive and very focused on sales.
47:58But, from my perspective, they can be harder to deal with. I’ve seen a lot of
48:02really talented people go into direct response, and it’s a market that’s very
48:07driven by greed and ambition.
48:08So, the type of person working in this market is, quote-unquote, greedy. They
48:12want to make money fast, and it’s a market where a lot of money is being
48:15made. So they need to understand that.
48:17If he wants someone who’s a little harder to manage but really talented, or someone
48:21who’s easier to manage when you’re thinking about the company, the culture,
48:24and the team, or someone who’s a little easier to work with and more stable, but
48:28is going to take a little longer to develop through the process, you know?
48:31So, man, just looking at it from a pure
48:33marketing perspective, who would you prefer?
48:35The direct-response copywriter, you know? Yeah, for sure, bro.
48:39So yeah, that's the point of the argument. But they are much rarer, bro.
48:42They’re much rarer, but if you’re thinking long-term, now, if you just want
48:45to hire someone freelance to build a campaign, man, I’d go with the
48:48direct-response copywriter in a heartbeat. But if you want to build a
48:51company for the long term, with professionals who align with your
48:53culture, you have to think twice. Why? Because the person’s profile sometimes
48:57matters more than their technical skills. You know? So I’d really think about
49:00that. Do you go with someone who’s a little
49:02more stable, who might take a little longer to develop because launches are
49:05really difficult, or someone who’s more of a star, but has a slightly greater
49:08ability to generate results, you know?
49:10Yeah, the people who are gurus copywriters,
49:13right? And nothing against you, by the way, okay?
49:15I actually have friends who are guru copywriters too, you know? I have a
49:18whole bunch, man. I pretty much only have people like that around me, you
49:22know? That’s basically my social circle, it’s pretty much you guys, the big
49:25mouths. And they have two things in common, okay?
49:28First, they’re my friends. And second, they’re absolutely terrible at FIFA,
49:32okay? Because I beat every single one of them, man. Derick, Tiagão, all of you
49:35guys, you’ve all gotten your asses kicked by me, and you know it, okay?
49:39And it’s true, you know? The trophy is still right here. That trophy back there
49:43behind the... I’ll see you in just a little bit
49:46Man, it’s still gonna be here, okay? Just to
49:48remind everyone, put up who won. That’s it. Done.
49:51Can you imagine if it wasn’t, man? It’s gonna be really good.
49:54That would’ve looked pretty bad man. This year, the video editor, Renata, doesn’t
49:59even ask me anymore. She said, “So I just put it
50:01in, just confirming, you were the one who won,
50:04right? I already know, but I’m just letting you know I put it in, okay? Bye,
50:07see ya.” She already sends it like that, she already knows. I mean, actually, she
50:10doesn’t send it yet, but she’s starting to. She said that.
50:12From now on it will... I wonder if she’s gonna start
50:15with this one now. She said, “Who won?” You know Alef, who works with Hanah?
50:18He came here to record, and then he played too, right? And then, bam, he
50:21talked, talked, talked, and then I ended up winning. Renata goes, “Who won?” And I
50:25said, “Me, obviously.” She goes, “Ah, I knew it.” But anyway, that’s when she
50:29started doing it, so I guess she’s already getting the
50:31hang of it. She is paid to praise the boss, obviously.
50:34Come on, let's be honest, Renata. Right, Renata? It's the absolute truth.
50:39But, man, I’d also go with the direct-response guy, you know? I think
50:42someone from the direct-response world has a lot more technical ability,
50:46because, I mean, this stuff is really hard, right? If it were actually easy to
50:50build an acquisition funnel with a VSL that works, then the market would have so
50:54much more money in it. So many more people would have way more money than
50:57they do today, and, honestly, there would be
51:00a whole lot more wealthy people out there.
51:02And we’re basically creating this kind of money-making machine, you know? It’s
51:06honestly a pretty crazy thing. And it generates leads,
51:08right? That’s something very few people pay attention
51:10to. It generates buyer leads like, damn it’s insane. For you to
51:13keep doing that ascension over and over, and increase your profits
51:16significantly. So that’s something really valuable. Even though it’s simple, it’s
51:19not something that’s easy to do. It’s very valuable and difficult to execute,
51:23even though the concept itself is simple.
51:26So I think a direct-response guy is ideal, okay? I don’t think someone who
51:30doesn’t know how to do this would have a hard time learning it relatively quickly.
51:33I think you need to have a certain instinct for it, a certain feel for what
51:37works. They can build the VSL structure, because that part is easy, you can
51:40basically just copy what already works.
51:42But that Mona Lisa thing, man, it’s just not gonna work. Coming up with those
51:46bullets, that kind of instinct, that little insight, that ability to see the
51:49angle, you know? It’s much easier to get it right
51:51with a direct-response copywriter than with a
51:53launch copywriter, for sure.
51:55Exactly. But, man, tell me, I really want to know how that transition happened from
51:59Braz the copywriter to Braz the entrepreneur. I want to understand what
52:03changed and what actually happened along the way. Exactly where I
52:06stopped in the story, you just read my mind. You know? So what’s
52:09the point? When we were working with Duda, right? And then Diandra came in as
52:12a client there, right? I’ll make a long story short, she came in as a client
52:15there, and that’s where things started happening.
52:18That's Diandra right? Yeah, the one in red.
52:20Are you sure that is not the one in yellow? The one in yellow? Yeah. I
52:24don't know. So there aren't two? Is it just this one? Don't, just say no. Just kidding.
52:29Yeah, and at the beginning, this was in 2025, right? We spent all of 2024 going
52:32through everything, and then in 2025, she came in as a client of Marcos Duda. At
52:36the time, I wasn’t writing much, right? I was
52:38mostly taking care of scaling and strategy.
52:40And when she came in, Duda came to me and said, “Man, you’re gonna write for her
52:44because she’s an important client.” I said, “Are you sure?” He said, “I am.” I
52:47said, “Alright, let’s write.” And then something really funny happened in the
52:50middle of all that, right? We ended up falling in love. Actually, she fell in
52:53love with me, obviously. And then I said, “Oh, she’s already in love with me, and
52:57I’m not even doing anything,". I’m just kidding.
52:59You can't even defend yourself, right Diandra?
53:01No, not this time. On her podcast, she defends herself.
53:04Not here, I’m the one doing the talking, and what I’m saying is true, you know?
53:07And then she came in as a client, and the funny thing was, we actually got together
53:11before I even wrote her VSL. So there was a little bit of pressure there, because I
53:15was thinking, if I write this and it works, great, there’s a lot of potential
53:18here. But if I write it and it doesn’t work, she’s gonna think I’m an idiot, and
53:21that’s it, she’s gonna be done with me, and the
53:24whole thing could get really awkward between us.
53:26So there was this extra pressure that I’d never experienced before, you know?
53:30Yeah, and then we launched the VSL, and I created a completely new thesis for the
53:33market, right? So much so that pretty much everyone in that market ended up
53:37copying it afterward, and that’s totally fine. As long as you don’t copy the
53:40actual lines, you know, don’t copy the lines, because that’s just not cool. At
53:44least ask first if you want to use them. And then I nailed the VSL, it worked
53:47really well, and she stayed with Marcos Duda for, I think, around three months.
53:52And then something really funny happened. One day, after we’d gotten to know each
53:55other better, she came to me and said, “Braz, you make everyone else’s
53:58businesses grow. You’ve already generated millions for so many companies, you’ve
54:01taken so many businesses to another level.
54:03So why don’t you focus on growing your own?”
54:06I thought to myself, “What a bastard, right?” That woman basically rented a
54:10three-bedroom apartment in my head, and I spent the entire night thinking about
54:14what she said. I kept thinking, “Why not?” You know? Because I already had
54:18knowledge of every area of the company, including sales, marketing, the team, and
54:23all the different structures involved. When was that, man?
54:26It was in March 2025, so it really wasn’t that long ago, you know?
54:30You stayed there all that time, so until March
54:33of 2021, you were at Marcos Duda's place?
54:35Yeah, that's right. Interesting, man.
54:38And then, with that three-bedroom apartment still rented in my head, I
54:41thought, “Why not?” Right? And she basically threw it right in my face that
54:45she wanted to start a company with me. Up until that point, it really hadn’t made
54:48much sense in my head at all. Yeah, it hadn’t really made much sense
54:51in my head to do it with her. I said, “Man,
54:53it makes sense,” but I’d never thought, “I’m gonna start something with Diandra,”
54:56you know? Then some time passed, she made it clear she wanted it to be the two of
54:59us, and I said, “Alright, let’s do it.” And
55:01then a month later, things got intense, right?
55:03A month after she said that, we started our company. Well, not exactly, right? We
55:06brought the two things together, and I was able to leave with the VSL, the one
55:10from Duda that was already validated. So that was extremely important, because we
55:13started a company with a validated campaign right from the beginning. That
55:16helped us ramp up really fast, right?
55:18It was the same copy and all, we started. And then... So the very
55:21first thing you did, once you created this company with her, was to go
55:24out and get a VSL for the business, one that
55:27was already validated and ready to scale.
55:29And instead of creating one, you just took Marcos’s VSL that was already
55:33validated and everything was in place. So for the person watching us here, if they
55:38put a company together like this, a good path would be to create a VSL and then
55:42ramp up their company, which is what you did, right? Yeah, that
55:45would be a good path, okay? Obviously, when you actually create a
55:48company, you need to understand which acquisition channels you have available
55:51to sell the product you have. VSLs are good, launches are good, sales teams are
55:55good. You have to figure out what makes the most sense for you, what works best
55:59with your product, and go for it, you know? In our case, for example, we
56:02already had a validated VSL, and we had a validated
56:04product. We were obviously gonna start with a
56:06VSL. And then we focused on scaling, right?
56:08That was a really important point, because my
56:10attention was very scattered across different things.
56:12Because I was managing several different projects, I had never been able to focus
56:16100% of my attention on Diandra’s project. When I left, all of my attention
56:20was focused on that one project, and we ended up multiplying our revenue by six,
56:24seven times, even though the revenue was already very significant. Why?
56:28Because of focus. I see a lot of copywriters making this mistake, right?
56:32And it’s not just copywriters, it’s people in general. They spread their
56:35focus way too thin. They take a freelance job here, a campaign there, an operation
56:39somewhere else, and they spread themselves so thin that they can’t
56:42generate exponential results. You know? So focus was extremely important for us
56:46to really ramp up our company.
56:48And today, after all of that, we have 30 people on the team, and I directly lead
56:52all 30 of those people myself, on a day-to-day basis. Thirty people?
56:56Yeah, Actually, it's around thirty-three.
56:58And who were the first five people you hired when you were building the team
57:01there? There was one person, Jaque, who had already been working with Diandra for a
57:05long time, and she’s actually still with the company today. I also hired a
57:08copywriter to work directly alongside me, and then we brought in a media buyer as
57:12well. And, yeah, that was basically it.
57:14With that team, we were able to scale a lot, right? And that’s really cool and
57:18really important, because when you have a validated campaign, especially a
57:21direct-response campaign built around a VSL, you can scale very aggressively with
57:25a very lean team. You just make ads, refresh the VSL, maybe test a new VSL,
57:29take care of the students, and keep scaling as far as you can, because the
57:33product we were selling was an infoproduct, which allowed us to scale that way.
57:37Our funnel was based entirely on an infoproduct, it wasn’t a subscription. So
57:40we were able to scale really aggressively with a very lean operation. So that’s an
57:44extremely positive point of this type of sale, you know?
57:47Absolutely, man, that's awesome. And guys, we could honestly do an entire
57:51podcast with Braz just talking about how to create and structure VSLs, and in
57:55fact, we actually did that, okay?
57:57But it wasn’t just with Braz. It was with two other people as well, in our
58:01roundtable about how to make VSLs, which is gonna appear on the screen. So I’m not
58:05gonna get technical about how to make VSLs. I want to explore the business as a
58:08whole here. But there’s the podcast with Braz, there’s the one with Tiago Filemon,
58:12which is gonna be the second VTurb podcast appearing on screen, and there
58:15are a bunch of other VSL podcasts too. Some of them are gonna show up on the screen.
58:20And, man, if you’re in this position thinking, “I’m an expert, I want to
58:24implement a VSL funnel,” then follow this path. There are several podcasts here
58:28that teach you how to do this and can help you take that very first step,
58:32exactly like Braz was talking about. And, man, if you get this step right, you can
58:36reach seven figures a month using a single VSL, without needing a huge team
58:40or complicated operation, right?
58:42Maybe not profitably. But it’s possible,
58:44okay? It doesn’t violate the laws of physics.
58:47But it’s much harder to make seven figures in profit using just one VSL.
58:51You’ll probably hear Braz talk about another funnel
58:54he built soon, probably something pretty crazy.
58:57Really? I hope so. You'll have to stay till the end.
59:00I think there are two things that are gonna happen. First, you’re gonna talk
59:03about this here. And the second one, you already know, right, man? Because you’re
59:07gonna get your ass kicked in this one. I’m gonna try really
59:10hard to beat you. I’m gonna post it on all my social media.
59:12I’m gonna make a whole series out of it. Dude, it is not going to happen, man.
59:16If I lose, I will pretend nothing happened, you know?
59:19You can pretend. I’m not gonna tell anyone. I mean, do you see me posting
59:22that, man? If I actually posted everything, Instagram would run out of
59:26storage. Meta’s servers would probably crash from all the stories I’d be posting
59:30about all the people who come here to VTurb and get absolutely destroyed, you
59:34know? All right, if you beat me today, tomorrow we'll train at Ironberg.
59:37That won't work out for me. But hey, I'd train with you, bro. Would you?
59:40Just to see the guys from Ironberg go crazy, man. You come in and say, “20-kilo
59:44plate,” , boom, boom, boom. And, man,
59:47somehow the 20-kilo plates just never run out.
59:49It usually ends for the others, right? Man, I was looking for the twenty-kilo plate.
59:53Oh, it's there with Braz. But it's like that, depending on the size of the gym.
59:57Man, weirdly enough, if we get to the end of the podcast, I might actually talk
1:00:01about that, okay? It was already on my mind, because I wanted to bring that up
1:00:06at some point. But anyway, guys, Braz’s company, the whole ecosystem and
1:00:09operation, started with this VSL funnel, and then you went ahead and started
1:00:14scaling that pretty quickly.
1:00:16Man, tell me, okay? What was your day-to-day
1:00:18life like during that initial phase?
1:00:21You had a VSL there that you created using your own VSL creation process. You
1:00:25figure out the mechanism, build the argument and the thesis, write the lead,
1:00:29create the offer, put everything together, record it, get it running, and
1:00:32follow a traffic framework to validate that VSL first and eventually scale it.
1:00:37And there’s a podcast about traffic here too, okay?
1:00:39There’s that one with Saraiva, this one with Pedro Andrade, and the roundtable
1:00:43with Saraiva, Pedro Andrade, and Dairo. There are a ton of podcasts there.
1:00:47Speaking of which, recommend someone in traffic to me later, man, because I need
1:00:51to do more traffic podcasts for the infoproduct crowd. But what was your
1:00:54day-to-day like during that stage? Were you still making ads? Were you putting
1:00:58out a lot of ads? Were you testing more leads?
1:01:01What does the day-to-day operation look like in that initial stage, when you’re
1:01:04making good money with a VSL, so people at home can understand what they should
1:01:07actually be doing, you know?
1:01:09Yes. I believe there are distinct stages in a company's evolution, right? You have
1:01:12going from zero to one, from one to 10, from 10 to 40... anyway... There are
1:01:16various operational scales.
1:01:17From zero to one, which was our exact stage at the time, it's heavily hands-on,
1:01:21it takes immense sweat equity, and I see so many founders make critical mistakes
1:01:25right here. A guy launches a business, hires a few people, and says, "Good luck,
1:01:28go execute and generate revenue." It doesn't work like that. So during this
1:01:31foundational phase, you must be extremely hands-on in operations, you see?
1:01:35It's you, the owners, the founders, raw hustle, daily execution. So I was running
1:01:39media campaigns, building ads, overseeing traffic management, managing video
1:01:42editing, aligning directly with editors—I was handling a massive scope, but for our
1:01:46phase, taking on that heavy lifting was essential, which is why we ramped up so
1:01:50fast, you see? So I wrote all the messaging myself, backed by a dedicated
1:01:53copywriter and a media buyer.
1:01:55That's when I really learned traffic, you know, like, on the operational level.
1:01:59I only knew strategically.
1:02:01And it required massive execution. I remember that roughly 70% of my time back
1:02:05then was spent purely writing copy, first because we only had five team members, so
1:02:08there was barely anyone to manage at that phase—it was strictly operational
1:02:12execution. And secondly because the core copywriting intelligence of the company
1:02:15still resided with me, right? So I personally wrote 100% of the collateral,
1:02:18every single ad, and that enabled us to scale significantly faster. Right.
1:02:23And in terms of production volume back then, do you recall how
1:02:26many ad creative variations you were pushing,
1:02:28or if you were also generating leads?
1:02:31Or was it strictly ads... or only leads... How did you
1:02:34actually manage that backend media scaling of the core offer?
1:02:38And just to help frame your answer, you know? Without trying to bias it?
1:02:43Without trying to bias your response... but totally biasing it anyway, the
1:02:47reason I'm asking you this directly, man, is because I recently spoke at Leandro
1:02:51Ladeira's mastermind, which is Master Fluxo, right? And guys... Master Fluxo?
1:02:55Master Fluxo, yeah. Cool, right? That funk party...? "Baile dos Fluxos..."?
1:03:00Man, for some reason they picked that name. They have their entry mentorship
1:03:03called Mentoria Fluxo, and then they have Master Fluxo, which is the high-tier
1:03:06mastermind. And guys, there's a full podcast episode with Leandro Ladeira that
1:03:09will pop up on your screen. And we also recorded one with Ruy Guimarães, his
1:03:11business partner, which will pop up on the screen as well.
1:03:14And right now, this whole topic around VSLs is hyper-trending, right? It's
1:03:18absolute crazy demand, crazy! You have tons of digital info-publishers talking
1:03:21about VSLs and trying to crack into cold-traffic acquisition the way you guys
1:03:24do, the way a select few do. But most of them don't have a real grasp of what
1:03:28they're actually doing. And there was this woman attending, right? Who asked
1:03:31something that blew my mind that she'd even ask, especially since she was
1:03:35already generating multiple six figures a month. With a VSL offer. Using
1:03:38a VSL funnel. And man, I can't recall your name right now, so if you
1:03:41happen to be watching this episode—and my apologies if I misquote you slightly—but
1:03:46what she said went something like this: "Look, I ran my VSL this month and
1:03:50generated, I don't know, 500,000, multiple six figures right there.
1:03:54But then this month revenue dipped slightly, down to around 400,000.
1:03:58So now I'm planning to completely rewrite the entire VSL." I swear she literally
1:04:01said that, you know? And right away I said: "No, are you crazy? What do you
1:04:04mean? Hold on, slow down! You're going to
1:04:06completely rewrite the VSL? Take a deep breath,
1:04:08hold on. Man, test new ad creatives first!
1:04:10Iterate on variables, you know?" So people often
1:04:12lack the operational perspective to realize that iteration must come first.
1:04:15That's precisely why I'm asking you: what specific playbook did you execute to
1:04:19manage that VSL scale? Because so many operators assume that
1:04:21the moment revenue fluctuates, they have to
1:04:23rewrite the entire VSL from scratch. And sure, that phase might eventually come,
1:04:26but there are so many levers we can pull
1:04:28beforehand to sustain peak campaign scaling, right?
1:04:30Spot on. The very first concept operators need to grasp is that once an offer is
1:04:34validated, optimizing that existing asset over time is infinitely easier than
1:04:38trying to launch a brand-new campaign from scratch.
1:04:41I noticed this constantly when I first met Diandra and entered the traditional
1:04:44corporate marketing space—I realized traditional marketers struggled immensely
1:04:48to build a performance acquisition engine like ours. So imagine running a VSL that
1:04:52generates 500,000 per day, driving high-intent students, qualified leads,
1:04:55customers... Wait, did you just say 500,000 per day?
1:04:58Per day? No, per month! I meant to say per month. Man, 500k a day...?
1:05:03I was about to say, "Damn, you guys definitely
1:05:05need to cover my lunch if that's the case!"
1:05:07No, it didn't hit 500k a day. It came close, but not 500k a day.
1:05:11My absolute daily record was 630k, man. 630k a day? That's insane.
1:05:16Yeah, there are high-level players pulling 10 million in
1:05:18a day. Well, that definitely pays for a nice steakhouse
1:05:21dinner at the parrilla, right? Something like that...
1:05:23But tell me, it's way easier to optimize an active winner
1:05:25than to write a new campaign. Yeah, what I observed
1:05:28heavily in traditional markets was that our raw
1:05:30ability to generate demand was infinitely stronger. So people must first understand
1:05:34that when you hold a validated campaign, you must do everything in your power to
1:05:37systematically optimize that asset. Wow, revenue dropped 100k in a month?
1:05:41You don't instantly draft a brand-new campaign. it's very hard to get a
1:05:44campaign right like that. So step one is understanding that principle.
1:05:47Right after that, you must continuously refresh your ad inventory with new
1:05:50creative hooks. I watched a video recently—I forget who posted it—everyone
1:05:53is talking about VSLs these days, right?
1:05:55He said: "Look, modern VSL companies aren't just VSL companies anymore; they
1:05:59are full-scale ad media production companies." That distinction is critical,
1:06:03because when you deploy multiple touchpoints, when you command user
1:06:07attention across varied angles—because every unique ad targets a specific avatar
1:06:11with a tailored angle, a distinct take—you systematically unlock brand-new
1:06:15customer acquisitions, see?
1:06:16So when you hold a validated front-end campaign and relentlessly test new entry
1:06:20angles for that offer, you can scale predictability—that's how performance
1:06:24media operates, right? So our media creative volume back then was—at our
1:06:28peak, we were deploying 90 variations per week. It was a massive volume because the
1:06:33core offer was validated. So from there, it was
1:06:35all about optimizing Upsell 1, tweaking Upsell 2,
1:06:38optimizing Upsell 3.
1:06:40And we had an end-to-end creative refresh protocol in place, right? But it required
1:06:44heavy variation testing. Today, the creative strategy we execute looks
1:06:48slightly different; we don't upload quite as many minor variations due to
1:06:51Andromeda, right? Andromeda fundamentally transformed how consumers engage with
1:06:55content—Andromeda altered how users interact with ads based on shifting
1:06:58behavioral patterns. For viewers who don't know, what exactly is Andromeda?
1:07:01To put it simply, Andromeda functions as an advanced machine-learning intelligence
1:07:06that powers Meta's ad algorithm to optimize campaign delivery, right? So
1:07:09Andromeda continuously updates based on real-time user behavior trends. And where
1:07:14are user behavioral patterns leaning today?
1:07:16Well, with AI tools flooding feeds with increasingly impersonal, generic digital
1:07:21noise, consumers are valuing the exact opposite. They crave organic proximity,
1:07:26authentic original angles, content that
1:07:28reflects a creator's genuine essence, right?
1:07:31So if you repeatedly publish the exact same creative holding minor tweaks,
1:07:35Andromeda won't optimize performance anywhere near as effectively as when you
1:07:38engineer entirely original ad concepts, right?
1:07:41Therefore, the more unique ad angles—conceptually built completely from
1:07:44scratch—you deploy, the higher your probability of validating a winning ad
1:07:47creative. So today we deploy 15 to 20 entirely original ads every single week,
1:07:51built completely from scratch. Alongside, of course, calculated optimizations of
1:07:54past winning creatives. And we maintain a similar scale because user behavior
1:07:58patterns evolved dramatically. Solid. Man...
1:08:01Okay... I want you to tell me if you agree or disagree with
1:08:04what I'm about to say, okay? Because I want to leave the audience with a core
1:08:08foundational framework, and I'd love your
1:08:11perspective on it. Fire away. It's an analogy.
1:08:14Can we compare maintaining a high-converting
1:08:17Video Sales Letter funnel... To...
1:08:20routine maintenance on a car?
1:08:23How does a car operate? The high-friction components that endure the most physical
1:08:27wear are naturally the ones that wear out first.
1:08:30So, man... Your tires eventually lose pressure, you have to align the tires,
1:08:36top off the gas tank... Then, after a bit more wear, you change the oil. And
1:08:41after driving heavily—say 10,000 miles—you perform a complete engine tune-up.
1:08:47So the components subjected to the highest friction and exposure are what
1:08:51you must replace first. And what does that translate to inside a VSL
1:08:54acquisition funnel? What is the single most exposed, high-wear element that
1:08:58fulfills the primary hook function?
1:09:00It's the very first frame of your ad creative. That split-second initial
1:09:05frame—guys, that exact combination of the top text overlay plus the visual hook
1:09:09image—is the highest-friction element, and simply replacing that single
1:09:14component with a fresh angle can completely reset
1:09:16ad performance. And what's the second layer?
1:09:19The remainder of the ad body, those crucial first three seconds, then the
1:09:23entire video lead, followed by the VSL page headline, the video player autoplay
1:09:27frame—the autoplay background—and then the VSL video lead itself. Do you agree
1:09:31with that breakdown? That the elements enduring the most creative fatigue in a
1:09:35VSL funnel are the most viewed assets, and consequently, managing an offer
1:09:38effectively simply comes down to swapping out those worn-out components?
1:09:43So as an example, the advice we could offer that woman is: "Are you crazy?
1:09:46Don't rewrite the entire VSL! Swap the initial ad hook, then test new ad
1:09:49creatives, then optimize the landing page headline, then test a new VSL lead. One
1:09:53of those micro-swaps will inevitably restore performance to its peak." Do you
1:09:57agree with that model? Disagree? What's your take?
1:09:59I completely agree, 100%. Again, whoever controls consumer attention today
1:10:03controls the capital flows, right? Where money flows—money naturally flows
1:10:07wherever attention is concentrated. That principle is paramount. And where is
1:10:11consumer attention concentrated online today?
1:10:13Right where your ad creatives pop up on their feeds. So if you master the
1:10:17mechanics of scaling ad production, leveraging your product's core mechanisms
1:10:20to target fresh audience cohorts through dynamic ad angles, you effectively direct
1:10:24where capital flows because you command where
1:10:26attention lives. Right, that's the exact framework.
1:10:28So for example, to systematically capture that user attention, we deploy multiple
1:10:34acquisition channels, but we continuously isolate different pain points of our
1:10:39target market, shifting target cohorts as those
1:10:43pain points evolve across social feeds, you see?
1:10:46So I see that this has been a very big differentiator for us to be able to
1:10:49scale, right, this domination of attention, so to
1:10:53speak, to where people are going. Powerful, man.
1:10:56Also, guys, if you're getting value from this episode—if it gave you a tactical
1:11:00breakthrough to scale your revenue or optimize your operations—check out the
1:11:03screenshot popping up on screen right now. That's a dedicated listener who got
1:11:07huge value from the episode and shared the
1:11:09link directly into a business WhatsApp group.
1:11:11It costs absolutely nothing to do that. He found it valuable, copied the link,
1:11:15and shared it. And I'm asking you to do the exact same thing right now. Copy the
1:11:19link to this episode and drop it into your masterminds, your WhatsApp groups,
1:11:22send it to a business partner or founder friend.
1:11:25It might sound super simple, and it truly is 100% free, but doing that helps far
1:11:30more entrepreneurs discover Scaling Secrets, which allows our podcast to grow
1:11:34so I can keep bringing world-class operators to deliver free high-level
1:11:39playbooks to help you scale your business. And like I said, it's 100%
1:11:43free. The only outcome is helping a fellow founder scale, just like this
1:11:47episode is helping you right now.
1:11:49So go ahead, share the link, help the VTurb algorithm push the show, and I'll
1:11:53keep bringing top 1% guests to drop value for you, deal? Now let's jump right back
1:11:57into the episode. Man, so initially your company
1:12:00structure revolved around this core VSL, then you
1:12:03hired a dedicated media buyer, a copywriter, and so on. What was the exact
1:12:08next step you took in professionalizing your corporate infrastructure? What moves
1:12:13did you make next? Man, the single most
1:12:16important realization we had was that for the
1:12:19company to hit its next growth stage, relying on just one acquisition
1:12:22channel—which back then was literally our only one, right—relying on a single
1:12:26channel wasn't going to cut it to build the operational scale, team, and
1:12:29infrastructure we needed. So that's when we made the executive call: let me
1:12:33monetize our existing customer base, right? We had a massive inflow of new buyers.
1:12:37Well, not just buyer volume, but an absolute surge of incoming customers. So
1:12:41we decided we were going to launch a brand new backend offer, right? And out
1:12:44of all the backend models available, the offer that made the most strategic sense
1:12:48due to low overhead, minimal delivery friction, high-ticket margins, and pure
1:12:51simplicity of execution was a high-tier mentorship, right?
1:12:54So we launched our very first mentorship program through a live webinar. Now,
1:12:57several things went completely sideways during that live stream, but we pushed
1:13:00forward and executed anyway, right? I'm sharing this because people often assume
1:13:03everything is flawless, that scaling is a smooth upward curve, and we never make
1:13:06mistakes, right? I like being transparent here because we completely messed up our
1:13:09event registration push for that stream, you know?
1:13:11You're looking at me like you're dying to ask something. Man..
1:13:15listen, every now and then a crazy question pops into my head and it
1:13:18completely shows on my face, you know? But I don't want to cut your flow off at
1:13:23all. I'm taking notes right here.
1:13:25All right. Got it. man—you were staring at me like, "Bro, what's next?" What
1:13:28he said made me think, "Whoa, that's a killer question, but I can't interrupt
1:13:32him right now. Let him finish his train of thought," you know? Fair enough. But
1:13:35I got super curious about something, so I'm writing it down to ask you right
1:13:38after. Alright. So we executed that live
1:13:40stream against all odds back then, especially
1:13:42since we had a major system failure with our WhatsApp API automation broadcast.
1:13:45But despite the tech glitch, we packed a massive crowd into the stream, dropped
1:13:49our high-ticket mentorship pitch—priced at 3,000
1:13:51at the time—and generated over 120 applications.
1:13:54And right then we said: "We just stumbled upon an absolute goldmine here, which is
1:13:57backend upsell monetization," right? So we immediately started professionalizing
1:14:01our internal team to automate this backend ascension
1:14:03process, including product delivery, right?
1:14:04This is a critical framework, because beyond just sales funnel campaigns, we
1:14:08focused heavily on engineering an offer that delivers massive transformation and
1:14:12real ROI for clients without forcing us to trade away our sanity, right? It's
1:14:16always about building scalable leverage. So we conceptualized the offer,
1:14:20structured the delivery, launched it, and our profit margins exploded.
1:14:23I remember our bottom-line net margin jumped by at least 20% to 30% overall. On
1:14:27the pure net bottom line, that's a massive swing.
1:14:30That's huge, man. Let me throw a question your
1:14:33way. Go right ahead, make yourself at home. Well, I am at home, man!
1:14:37Until I crush you in FIFA, then we'll see... You seriously think
1:14:40you're taking the win? We'll see about that. Man, honestly,
1:14:43coming out here to my studio, on my podcast right here in Floripa—flex on
1:14:46me... You've got to be kidding me, man! No way, that's not happening! If we were
1:14:49back in São Paulo, I'd let it slide, okay? On that podcast we recorded over
1:14:52there. But on my home turf, brother, overlay the scoreboard graphics right
1:14:55here, man, just so he sees the reality of what's about to go down!
1:14:58Look, I'll consider letting you win, how about that? I'll contemplate that option!
1:15:01Man, it's gonna look terrible if I lose, but there's zero chance I'm losing, bro.
1:15:05Zero chance. But listen, going back to what you said—first off, I want to
1:15:08clarify something you mentioned earlier about
1:15:10wanting to build another acquisition channel.
1:15:13The way I define an acquisition channel is a
1:15:15mechanism to pull in brand new cold customers.
1:15:17But then you mentioned that the mentorship
1:15:22Yeah, from what I understood then, you sold it to new people, through your
1:15:26Instagram, or was it an ascension mentorship?
1:15:28ascension mentorship. So it was for the students. Yeah. Oh, I get it now.
1:15:33Yeah, I assumed you guys were already leveraging organic content to sell this
1:15:37mentorship directly to cold audiences outside your buyer ecosystem. But at that
1:15:41specific point in time, were you guys not running heavy organic content production
1:15:45yet, or were you already executing it heavily since Diandra had been doing it
1:15:49since her days with Marcos?
1:15:51Look, organic content production has always been embedded deep in our DNA.
1:15:54Always. You know? So when she joined the company, she was already pumping out
1:15:58massive content and generating insane results. What we did was leverage that
1:16:01organic content production engine—which was already a primary acquisition
1:16:04channel, in fact one of our highest-converting
1:16:07channels, as I mentioned before.
1:16:09And once she had that organic content distribution engine running at scale, we
1:16:12started using it to monetize every single stage of our funnel, see? So we always
1:16:16maximized that leverage.
1:16:17But we did this launch to our existing student base. Why? First, because it was
1:16:21an MVP, so it was a product where we could test a lot of things.
1:16:24So whenever you launch a new offer to your existing buyer base—provided it
1:16:28aligns perfectly with their needs—to test product-market fit, your active customer
1:16:31base is the ultimate proving ground. Why? Because these people already trust you,
1:16:35they've already pulled out their credit cards for you, and as long as the offer
1:16:39hits the mark, they are far more patient and eager to provide constructive feedback.
1:16:43So this is extremely important when you want to take your product to market and
1:16:46scale. If you test it with your existing audience first, you can improve the
1:16:49product a lot so you can get results when you eventually take it to the open
1:16:52market. So the first launch we did was to our existing student base, okay?
1:16:55Especially since it was a high-ticket product.
1:16:57So we were very careful about that, and it worked
1:17:00out really well. Got it... Alright. So, let me...
1:17:04let me map out your core business structure, to
1:17:06make sure I'm tracking correctly, okay? Okay.
1:17:09You had Diandra constantly publishing organic content, and on the other side,
1:17:12you had your direct response funnel driving cold traffic to your VSL.
1:17:15But the primary benefit of the organic content back then was essentially
1:17:19boosting cold conversion rates on the VSL, since you weren't necessarily
1:17:22pitching offers directly on her profile. You created content, which built massive
1:17:26social proof on her Instagram. So when you ran cold ads using her handle,
1:17:29prospects would check her profile and see: "Oh, she's a legit authority, she's
1:17:33real, she drops high-value insights.
1:17:35If I buy something from her and it's trash, I can easily call her out right
1:17:38here in her comments section." Uh-huh.
1:17:42We were driving massive revenue through organic sales as well. Oh, on organic
1:17:46too. We used to joke that we were running internal sales competitions.
1:17:49I'd run a high-converting story sequence while she dropped feed content to see who
1:17:52could generate more cash flow, right? One day I ran an emergency Story campaign and
1:17:56pulled in 10,000 purely selling front-end low-ticket offers. Strictly using VSL
1:17:59funnels. And she pulled in 11,000. I was like, "Damn it!" But she dropped a viral
1:18:02reel linked with ManyChat automations, you know? While I sold through manual
1:18:06Story pushes—it was insanely close. I think she barely edged me out on that one.
1:18:09Let me tell you something, man. If that ever happened to me, I wouldn't
1:18:13be able to sleep at night. I'd grind until I overtook you, man! I'd stay up
1:18:16working non-stop—losing is simply not in my vocabulary, man!
1:18:19But you get the dynamic, right? I said: "Look, I could easily drop three more
1:18:23Stories right now and take the win, but I'll let her have this victory, man!"
1:18:26So in the back of my mind, I had to convince myself that I technically won,
1:18:29you know? In my own head, I won! Are you kidding me? Unbelievable! I wouldn't have
1:18:33slept a wink... This is how a relationship ends. Instantly, man! No doubt about it.
1:18:39Yeah, but I get it, man. And do you feel that her organic content engine was—well,
1:18:43it was obviously a massive unfair advantage for scaling the VSL, right?
1:18:47Without a shadow of a doubt, it accelerated things. But do you think
1:18:51those direct organic sales were a major revenue driver in the beginning, or was
1:18:56the cold-traffic VSL doing 90% of the heavy lifting? Yeah, organic has always been a
1:19:00massive revenue driver. In my view, organic
1:19:02content distribution is currently one of the single most powerful customer
1:19:05acquisition channels on the entire internet, period.
1:19:08Instagram nowadays, in particular, represents one of the largest
1:19:11concentrations of human attention on the planet. So if you master—again, coming
1:19:14back to the exact same core framework, right? By the end of this podcast,
1:19:18viewers will realize that when you dominate user attention where it
1:19:21naturally lives and build seamless conversion mechanics to monetize that
1:19:25attention, man, you literally control where the capital flows, you see?
1:19:28So we were consistently generating organic sales. It was never just, "Oh,
1:19:32this only serves to build warm brand awareness for the VSL." Absolutely not!
1:19:36While we ran fewer organic campaigns compared to our relentless ad variations,
1:19:40organic generated revenue that rivaled the VSL on many days. Why?
1:19:43Because with organic traffic, first of all, you don't have Meta's ad costs,
1:19:47right? That obviously makes a big difference in your margins. And second,
1:19:50you're not paying Meta's costs. Zero ad cost.
1:19:53Zero, pure profit! So once you cover basic variable fulfillment, it's pure net
1:19:57margin, real cash in the bank, you know? Never before in human history—if you step
1:20:01back and think about it—never before has an operator had the power to record a
1:20:05quick, free video on a smartphone, publish it, and instantly reach millions
1:20:09of targeted prospects to pitch a solution. Yeah, humans only
1:20:12recently developed the ability to broadcast something to
1:20:15multiple people at once. It's pure madness, absolutely insane.
1:20:18That's why the digital world is so wildly polarized right now, everyone's at each
1:20:21other's throats. Yeah, there are pros and cons,
1:20:23right? But people who know how to take advantage
1:20:25of it to make money are making a lot of money.
1:20:27Thank God for that, man. Listen...
1:20:29Do you feel you guys possessed—or still possess—a specific operational edge,
1:20:35when it comes to organic content? that the rest of the market lacks?
1:20:40Because I feel almost everyone watching
1:20:43us understands basic content creation today. Or at least...
1:20:46even if they aren't experts, they have a general framework: "Okay, I'll build a
1:20:50posting schedule, use this format, execute X and Y." But I definitely don't
1:20:54view you guys as beginners in this game. I view you as top-tier operators, maybe
1:20:58even advanced elites. Honestly, I can't even evaluate it fully, you know?
1:21:02My thing isn't really making content. I just do this podcast, that's pretty much
1:21:05it. It's the only thing I know how to do.
1:21:07Hosting one of the biggest business podcasts in
1:21:08the country! Yeah, but I stick strictly to
1:21:10my one lane, you know? And man, you're living
1:21:12proof of how it goes. I just walk in here, turn on the mic, and talk. That's
1:21:15it. Pure freestyle, that's it. At most, we had
1:21:17that quick pre-interview discovery call, right?
1:21:19Yeah, super brief, but we did it. Yeah. Exactly, but...
1:21:23That’s intentional, because I don’t want to know what I’m
1:21:26going to say, because otherwise I can’t be surprised. And if we scripted
1:21:29something like this, it would feel weird. Yeah, it’s very... the important thing is
1:21:33to be natural and capture reality, you know? I think that makes me...
1:21:37Ask better questions and stuff.
1:21:38I think that’s actually one of your differentiators, you know? It’s more of a
1:21:42natural flow. I hope so, who knows! In theory,
1:21:44at least! I even banter directly with our
1:21:46live studio audience here, you know? An audience of one person. Yeah...
1:21:50Maybe.. If we'd caught her doing that gesture from
1:21:54earlier, on camera, right? Behind the scenes.
1:21:57Behind the scenes. She's loosening up here, and pretty soon she'll be right
1:22:00there getting interviewed. But, man... What do you think...
1:22:07people should be doing with their content? I
1:22:09mean... What do you think you do differently that...
1:22:12Something that really boosted your business? That got you into this whole
1:22:17seven-figure profit world?
1:22:20The main thing people need to understand is that once you master the basics of
1:22:24building demand and attention, marketing, in its purest form, you can control
1:22:29where that attention goes. So the biggest differentiator, in my view,
1:22:34when it comes to our content, is that our content has... copy. Look at that.
1:22:40Exactly. And obviously, there are other differentiators too, like the positioning
1:22:44structure, the formats we use, but the way we build content with copy, barely
1:22:47anyone in the market does that. I can count them on one hand, seriously,
1:22:51because I know all our competitors. But what is that, man?
1:22:54What does it mean to make content with copy? We have a structure that has...
1:22:58more proof elements, more promise. What does that actually mean in practice?
1:23:04For someone to create content online, or rather, to create an ad online, they need
1:23:09to go through certain persuasion structures to take the person from point A to point B.
1:23:14Very few people think this way when they create content, because that's actually a
1:23:17marketing mindset, something people who understand marketing tend to have.
1:23:21So what we did was take people through the entire awareness funnel and channel
1:23:26them toward the specific action we want them to take. Let me give you an
1:23:31example: a lot of people today divide their content based on positioning. So
1:23:36you have attraction content, then connection
1:23:39content, and then sales content...
1:23:41Man, that's cool when you're going from 40 to 100 at the company level. But when
1:23:45you're going from zero to 10, in content and positioning, you have to scale your
1:23:50image to as many people as possible. And that's exactly what we do. We took a
1:23:54content structure that runs through every level of awareness, from the top of the
1:23:58funnel to the bottom, and it drives the person to take action at the end.
1:24:03So basically, content is an ad. You see? Because it's built entirely
1:24:08with copy, seven stages in each part, eight stages throughout the whole piece.
1:24:14Eight stages, and people have to go through
1:24:16each one to reach millions of people, right? Our accuracy is honestly insane,
1:24:21whether we're building for other people or for ourselves.
1:24:25And man... And this content machine... Its...
1:24:32It's, it's a machine that... Did it get more sophisticated over time? Or did you...
1:24:39Or did you decide to build other machines...
1:24:43that feed your business? Let me give you an example, okay?
1:24:47You could have your content routine, like, "I'll post seven reel a week
1:24:52here and some stories too, and that's it, that's my content input."
1:24:57And once you have that set up, it's done. Then you can build other machines that do
1:25:01other things. So there's the acquisition machine with the VSL you built...
1:25:06Then an ascension machine, probably that mentoring thing you mentioned, and you go
1:25:10in and improve that. Maybe there are even other
1:25:13machines, other funnels, other things to build.
1:25:15I built my content funnel once, and I never scaled it in volume.
1:25:21I've done one episode a week for the last three years.
1:25:24Actually, next month, on the third, we hit three years of the VTurb podcast...
1:25:30So I only do one podcast a week, for three years, and I don't plan to push
1:25:34that input further, doing more than one a week. That's my strategy, and I grow
1:25:39volume in other... other parts of the business, where I believe I get a
1:25:44better return on investment.
1:25:47So in your business then, right, in your ecosystem, in Diandra's monetization,
1:25:53you've got several machines, from what I'm understanding, right? There's this
1:25:57content machine, there's the acquisition machine, which is the VSL,
1:26:02and there's the ascension machine, which maybe has a few mechanisms, this
1:26:06mentoring thing, maybe more, I don't know yet, we'll get into that. But this
1:26:10content machine, man... Did you sophisticate it? Was it one of the
1:26:14machines you focused on most, or not so much?
1:26:18Referring, obviously, to the start of your operation. Because I don't know. And
1:26:23what I'd recommend to everyone watching is, I'd tell them to have a content
1:26:27machine at an okay level,
1:26:29At a volume that the person considers "okay" for themselves... But I wouldn’t
1:26:33recommend focusing on that. I’d recommend focusing on the video sales letter
1:26:36direct-response marketing machine, with content
1:26:39serving as an amplifier for that whole system.
1:26:42That's what I see working best, based on the interviews I do with people.
1:26:46And obviously, of course I'd say that, because, damn, I have a VSL product, so I
1:26:50want people doing more VSLs.
1:26:52But, funnily enough, it's also what I see working best. Maybe if I interviewed
1:26:56people who are stronger in content, they'd say the opposite, "No, I'd
1:27:00sophisticate the content machine way more." But I hear this a lot, "I don't
1:27:04want to be a slave to content anymore." I'll
1:27:06make some content here to keep my brand alive...
1:27:09but I'll build other machines that bring in revenue and scale my business.
1:27:15So that's why I'm asking of the machines you built... How much did you
1:27:18sophisticate that content machine... to
1:27:21get to your current seven-figure margin level?
1:27:25Did it improve? Were the levers basically
1:27:27the direct-response marketing levers? Tell me
1:27:30a little bit about that. I think people, even
1:27:33today, for some reason, don't see Instagram as an
1:27:36acquisition channel. They see it as a storefront. And that's one of the biggest
1:27:41mistakes business owners make today.
1:27:43Meanwhile, if you look at the biggest entrepreneurs in the world, I'll even
1:27:47bring up names from Brazil, like Alfredo, Thales, the G4 crowd, in general, Elon
1:27:51Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, everyone's going to social media. Because they understand
1:27:54social media creates two really important effects
1:27:57for a business. The first is direct acquisition.
1:27:59If you have a team watching your DMs... Your comments... and they're able to sell
1:28:03to those people, that's a lot of demand, like I said, because you shoot one video,
1:28:08reach millions of people, and if you've got a team to monetize it, you will.
1:28:12The second thing that ads don’t give you is awareness, right? Brand awareness.
1:28:16You have the power to, uh, show up in front of people consistently and
1:28:21create whatever perception you want them to have of you, in the way you want them
1:28:25to see your brand. So if you want to be seen
1:28:28as more professional, as someone who’s an
1:28:31authority in your field, you can create that perception, as long as
1:28:35your positioning is done well. So this idea that Instagram is just a storefront
1:28:40isn’t really true for most professionals, you know?
1:28:44And the second really important point, about the sophistication you mentioned,
1:28:48right? You said you never actually increased VTurb's volume, but over time,
1:28:52you kept improving your script, you kept improving your acquisition channel, and
1:28:56how you monetized that incoming base of audience that kept showing up. And that's
1:29:00exactly why VTurb kept growing and growing, you see?
1:29:03So, tightening those screws along the way, that's also a form of sophistication
1:29:07in its own right. What's really not correct is thinking that volume
1:29:11automatically equals sophistication.
1:29:13Because people think, man, the more volume I put out there, the more results
1:29:16I'm going to get. Definitely not, that's just not how it works, honestly. You see,
1:29:20if you keep pushing out volume with the wrong strategy, you're just going to keep
1:29:24doing the wrong thing, over and over again. Now, if you post with quality,
1:29:27tightening a few screws here and there and improving along the way, you can
1:29:30actually hit your business goal through that content, in this case, Instagram, or
1:29:34in your specific case, VTurb. See? So once people
1:29:36really understand that Instagram is a source of
1:29:39acquisition, it completely shifts the whole game.
1:29:41Today we make a lot of money just from Instagram alone, so we really tightened
1:29:45the screws on Diandra's positioning, so people would see her, would perceive her,
1:29:49as an authority for the audience we're going after. And we built out sales
1:29:53channels to monetize those people properly. So yeah, we kept tightening the
1:29:57screws along the way too, little by little. Yeah, right.
1:30:01Right? So, for example, one thing that kept happening a lot, and we're actually
1:30:05solving this with AI now, is that sometimes we'd put out a piece of content
1:30:09that reached millions of people, but our sales team, the SDRs mainly, just
1:30:13couldn't keep up, couldn't respond to everyone, there were simply too many. So
1:30:17we went and built an AI solution so we wouldn't keep losing those leads.
1:30:21That was one of the ways we sophisticated things and managed to make more money
1:30:25through content, you know what I mean? So,
1:30:28yeah, that's basically it. Interesting, man.
1:30:31And what would you recommend... actually, let me ask it this way... do
1:30:35you think there are different levels to this whole content thing, and to the
1:30:39screw tightening that you did? Do you think you...
1:30:43you managed to make those big leaps in content performance over these last
1:30:47few years? You said it was around 2025, right? So that's, what, a year, a year
1:30:52and some months, that you've been... actively working on this project.
1:30:58I don't know if it was exactly that, you know? Was there some kind of new content
1:31:02format you tried out, or something that just started clicking way harder than
1:31:06what you were doing back at the start?
1:31:09In my case here with VTurb, man, we'd just drop the podcast episode and...
1:31:16I think, without a doubt, at the very beginning, when we did that
1:31:18roundtable-style podcast, there wasn't even a discovery call involved. I'd just
1:31:22show up with a topic I more or less wanted to talk
1:31:24about, and go straight to asking our audience.
1:31:26That's the podcast that's about to pop up on screen, right? I've mentioned it
1:31:29before, but it'll show up again.
1:31:31But I did have this "screw tightening" moment, with the discovery call.
1:31:34Basically, I ask a few little questions beforehand
1:31:37that help me guide the episode a lot better.
1:31:39And I think guest selection got a lot better too, honestly. Makes a
1:31:42huge difference. You know Diary of a CEO? I think you're familiar with
1:31:45it. Yeah, we take inspiration from it. Yeah, they actually
1:31:48built an algorithm internally, I was reading an article
1:31:50about them, and they built this algorithm that stops them from booking the most
1:31:54famous guests. Based on their audience's behavior patterns, they end up booking
1:31:58completely random people who happen to have relevant topics. So they post the
1:32:01same amount of content, but they're constantly refining their communication
1:32:05to attract more qualified people, you know? Yeah, they actually
1:32:09have a whole job opening for that... it's called a guest booker. Yeah...
1:32:14It's literally the job title, "guest booker." Look at that, Nicole, how
1:32:17interesting is that, the guy's entire job is to
1:32:18research what people are talking about right now.
1:32:20Very interesting, yeah. Yeah, I found that really interesting too.
1:32:24So basically, that's what we changed, we sophisticated that part as well.
1:32:29And, referring back to your content sophistication,
1:32:33Do you think there was something specific you did, something you remember, that was
1:32:37a huge differentiator, something really significant...
1:32:41Something that maybe helped Diandra take that
1:32:43next step, or even a third step forward...
1:32:46Something you can point to that you started doing, that just started working
1:32:48really well, with the content itself. I don't know if you've got one. If not,
1:32:51that's totally fine, I'm just asking.
1:32:53I don't know, honestly, you tell me. Yeah, there is
1:32:55one, actually. You guys are the experts here. I'm just
1:32:57the guy who asks the questions. What we started to notice
1:33:00is that the actual idea behind your content attracts
1:33:02a very specific type of audience. Who would've thought, right, that the idea of
1:33:06your content would end up bringing in such a specific audience? But most people
1:33:10still don't grasp that, and it's actually a really important level of
1:33:13sophistication to bring to your content. Today, for instance, I'd say there are
1:33:16three main pillars for a content idea to be relevant enough to actually scale.
1:33:20First, hot topics, right? So, things that are happening right now, war, elections,
1:33:24stuff like that. When you make content around something like that, you get a bit
1:33:28more reach potential built in.
1:33:30Second, universal pain points. In basically any niche you're in, you can
1:33:34speak to most people, let's say 90 percent, you can talk about kids, about
1:33:39relationships, about health. You can always make that kind of connection work.
1:33:43Because these are universal pain points that work no matter the niche you're in,
1:33:48you know? And last but not least, niche-specific hot topics.
1:33:51Take health and weight loss, for example. What's trending right now, specifically
1:33:54in weight loss and health?
1:33:56Mounjaro, right? So the odds of nailing a piece of content about Mounjaro are
1:33:59pretty high these days.
1:34:00Once you actually figure out these ideas, you can define exactly which audience
1:34:05you're going to reach. So, for example, if we want to attract doctors to our
1:34:09profile, we talk about health-related topics, you see? So the real trick here,
1:34:14the big takeaway, is that you can control who you attract to your profile just
1:34:19through the idea behind your content.
1:34:21That's extremely important, because we once made a piece of content about GTA,
1:34:24for example, about the GTA launch. Even though it was Diandra talking, with a
1:34:28pretty serious tone, positioned toward an older
1:34:30audience, it still ended up attracting kids.
1:34:32GTA? Really? Yeah, we made a piece of content
1:34:35about the GTA launch, right? About the way they
1:34:37were rolling it out, generating all that buzz in the market. And even though it
1:34:41turned out to be really well made content, it only brought in a younger
1:34:44crowd to the profile, based on the actual metrics.
1:34:46When we made a piece about health, only doctors showed up, basically. So from the
1:34:50very idea stage of the content, we're able to bring in a specific audience. And
1:34:54obviously, depending on your product's price and your overall offer, if you can
1:34:58control the type of audience you attract to your profile, it's basically a lead
1:35:01machine, you know? Today, if you were paying for a doctor lead, a medical lead
1:35:05with real buying potential, how much do you think that would cost you?
1:35:09Something like 800 reais to get one Marketing
1:35:11Qualified Lead. See? It's expensive, right? So once
1:35:13you really understand that, you can, again,
1:35:15control attention. That's exactly what we did here, we sophisticated our content to
1:35:19the point of understanding that, based on what we were posting, we attracted the
1:35:23type of audience that was most likely to actually
1:35:26buy from us. Interesting, really interesting.
1:35:28Well, what's my strategy here, right? I do
1:35:32this podcast, once a week, every week...
1:35:35and I bring in experts, which is basically you
1:35:37guys, and then I sit down and talk with you.
1:35:40And this turns into a value-packed episode, and somewhere in the middle of
1:35:44it, I run the VTurb ad, which has probably
1:35:46already popped up for you guys watching, right?
1:35:49And I also tell people to go check out this video that's about to show up on
1:35:52screen, where I explain how to actually optimize a VSL. And somewhere in the
1:35:55middle of that video, I show off VTurb, because, funnily enough, it's honestly
1:35:58the easiest way to do it. So it's kind of
1:36:00like I "sell without really selling." Totally.
1:36:03So I do all that here on YouTube.
1:36:05And that, all on its own, is a form of acquisition, because YouTube delivers it
1:36:08organically to people. But then I take that
1:36:11content and I push it over to Instagram too.
1:36:13And then on Instagram, if you check it out, you’ll
1:36:16see that we have a ton of Reels that we post.
1:36:18And we post a lot, there's over two thousand
1:36:20posts sitting there on Instagram alone.
1:36:22And on top of that... We put out 42 shorts a week.
1:36:27Right here on YouTube. That's basically our production volume.
1:36:30And then the shorts deliver content to people, they send folks over to the
1:36:33podcast. People watch the podcast, and inside it there's a VTurb ad running.
1:36:36Brand recognition, people see the VTurb ad, they go watch that video, which is
1:36:39what's about to show up on screen.
1:36:41That way people really understand the difference with VTurb, and they end up
1:36:44subscribing. Honestly, I can't fully measure if it's working, I genuinely
1:36:47don't know. There's a link right down below,
1:36:49everyone, 15% off for the first two months.
1:36:51If you want to subscribe through that link, I'd really appreciate it. And if
1:36:54you don't want to, that's fine too. You should
1:36:55really subscribe. But it's because people do end up
1:36:57subscribing anyway. Yeah. They will end up
1:36:59subscribing. If you're smart about it, you're going to
1:37:01subscribe. But, that link in the description,
1:37:03it's good because it's actually tracked
1:37:05properly. So I can roughly tell how many leads I'm picking up from it, you know?
1:37:08Because pretty much everything else is organic. And then, over on Instagram, we
1:37:11push out tons of reels. I share...
1:37:14the posts that people send us, like pictures of the plaques
1:37:17they’ve received and things like that...
1:37:20And every once in a while our team throws in some memes there too, you know? Some
1:37:23funny stuff, and that ends up getting a lot of views, and it grows the audience...
1:37:28That right there is basically my whole strategy.
1:37:30So, yeah... Right. But if you really think about
1:37:32it, what I just said a minute ago applies to
1:37:34you just as much. Like, who are VTurb's potential subscribers today? Probably
1:37:38freelancers, independent professionals, who are trying to break into the direct
1:37:41response market, because they want to stop selling their hours and start
1:37:44scaling vertically. So freelance professionals. Then, who am I actually
1:37:48going to bring onto the podcast?
1:37:50People that those freelance professionals already know, and admire, and look up to.
1:37:54Not just marketing people either, necessarily. So bring on, say, a medical
1:37:57marketing expert, for example.
1:37:59That medical marketing expert is going to attract other doctors, people who could
1:38:02potentially become clients down the line. So it's really the same idea underneath
1:38:06it all. The idea behind your content, and the actual topic of that content, brings
1:38:09in a very specific audience. You know?
1:38:11So you can control exactly who ends up showing up here. You see?
1:38:15Yeah, honestly, I actively do that on purpose, so much so that I brought you
1:38:19guys on here, because... even though I genuinely like you, man, we're friends
1:38:23and all, I'm still not just bringing you on here for no reason, you know what I mean?
1:38:27I brought you guys on because you're doing something that a lot of people out
1:38:30there want to do, having that whole info-product structure, back-end offers
1:38:34and everything, which is really, really booming in the market right now.
1:38:38So, I'm sort of controlling the action here, by having you on. I've done
1:38:41podcasts on tons of other topics before,
1:38:43but that's more or less the underlying idea.
1:38:45I don't really try to go create a brand new market.
1:38:47I try to teach people how to make VSLs first and foremost.
1:38:52And I've got a low-ticket course, it's about to pop up on screen, so I've
1:38:55definitely tried doing that myself. And every now and then I still do a little
1:38:58bit of it, but it's honestly not really my main focus anymore. My focus is
1:39:01letting other people go create the market, and then I bring on the guys
1:39:04who've already got that figured out. So, people who teach how to make VSLs.
1:39:07And that, honestly, works out really well.
1:39:10Thinking about it, I create markets too. With this podcast, we're kind of creating
1:39:13a market in our own way, because it's going to end up helping someone out there.
1:39:16But, man, that right there, that's VTurb, okay? And now, let's talk about you guys.
1:39:22About an ecosystem built around...
1:39:24info products. With a seven-figure margin, running steadily on a permanent
1:39:28basis, working out well, staying profitable... What do you think this
1:39:31whole content system should actually look like, that people should be applying?
1:39:36Do you think someone should be posting a certain number of reels per week, or
1:39:39something along those lines... Should the person really focus on just pumping
1:39:42out a ton of reels to drive traffic to the profile, and then use stories to
1:39:45funnel people over to the link in the bio...
1:39:47Do you have a sense of what an MVP content strategy would look like, one
1:39:50that the people watching us should be applying? And...
1:39:53I don't know if this is exactly it, but something that really boosts the VSL, or
1:39:57uses it in some smart way. Walk me through how you guys actually pull that off.
1:40:01Well, the first thing a person really needs to understand is that content has
1:40:05the potential to grow your business, and even double the size of your business,
1:40:09depending on how you actually post it. So content is a genuinely strong acquisition
1:40:13channel. Why am I bringing this up? Because if people go into a channel like
1:40:17Instagram treating it like some kind of hobby, it's just not going to work out.
1:40:21There's really no way it works. You'll just get swallowed up, because the
1:40:25content space today is extremely, extremely sophisticated. So that's the
1:40:28very first mindset shift a person needs to make. And from there...
1:40:31They've really got to think a lot more about strategy, where they want to go,
1:40:34what kind of audience they want to attract, rather than just obsessing over
1:40:37volume. Again, if someone puts out a ton of content with the wrong strategy behind
1:40:40it, there's just no way it works out. It's really hard, you know? So how should
1:40:43they actually be thinking about it?
1:40:45What market is the person actually in, right? Or, what niche do they really want
1:40:49to work in. What kind of audience do you actually want to attract... because
1:40:52that's going to matter a lot, especially from the middle to the end of your
1:40:55content. And also, what do they actually want to sell, you know?
1:40:58And based on all that... Well, I'll send over a market research to help understand
1:41:02those three ideas I mentioned earlier. So that would be, universal pain points,
1:41:05niche-specific pain points, and hot topics. And then you look at what's
1:41:09actually working, and build out the script strategy from there. Again, the
1:41:12script strategy itself is a bit more complex than what I'm laying out right
1:41:15now, but with a genuinely good idea, a person has real room to grow. And what
1:41:19about posting frequency, then?
1:41:20It would be about how much the person can record with quality. If you can record
1:41:23just one, but with solid market research behind it, then just do one.
1:41:26Once a week? Or once a day? Once a week. And what I've noticed is that...
1:41:30Do you think that’s an initial volume we can use to get things off the ground,
1:41:34so that the person can... generate enough
1:41:37initial traction for the business? It’s important
1:41:39to start posting, because there’s a huge barrier there. People
1:41:42don’t post, you know? They either post the wrong way or they don’t post at all,
1:41:45and then they blame Instagram, the marketing agency, or the social media
1:41:48manager they hired. But the person just doesn’t have that drive they need to
1:41:51actually get started, you know? That’s extremely important.
1:41:54So, the moment somebody understands that the most they can post with real quality
1:41:58is what's actually gonna get them where they want to go, they start understanding
1:42:02their business a little better and taking action, you know? And honestly, I'm not a
1:42:06fan of posting every single day, especially for someone who's just
1:42:10starting out. I'm not a fan of boosting every
1:42:12piece of content. Wait, even stories? Shouldn't you
1:42:14post them every day? No. For beginners, there's no
1:42:17point in posting stories 'cause nobody's watching,
1:42:19right? People want to be influencers, posting
1:42:21a ton of stories, but what's the point?
1:42:23Nobody's landing on your profile, so who are you posting for? Who told you that's
1:42:27relevant? It's not. Obviously, when you have a lot
1:42:30of traffic hitting your profile, and you have a
1:42:32stories strategy to connect and sell to those people, it makes total sense. But
1:42:36it's just vanity when you're starting out, you know? So that's the first point.
1:42:40People need to understand that if they post content every day in a completely
1:42:44wrong way, it's gonna fail.
1:42:46If they post those seven-second clips, you know? Like, "read the caption" - that
1:42:50makes no sense either. It brings in an extremely unqualified audience, 'cause
1:42:53you're pulling in people who just want quick content, and later on you can't
1:42:57sell to them. So, to sum it up, I'd say most guru strategies out there today are
1:43:01irrelevant for building a real business on Instagram.
1:43:04If you want to go viral, cool. If you want the algorithm to push your video,
1:43:08fine. But I'm talking to people who actually wanna sell, right? The
1:43:11professionals we speak to want a real business on Instagram. It makes zero
1:43:15sense to post daily without a strategy, or to post short-form content. In fact,
1:43:19our videos run from a minute and a half to two minutes, sometimes even more.
1:43:23Why? 'cause it goes through every stage of the copy to convince that person to
1:43:27take an action at the end of my video. Got it?
1:43:31Yeah, got it, man. Are you sure? I can explain it a different way if
1:43:36you want. Nah, I'm good. I'm thinking what question I'm gonna ask next.
1:43:41So, here's what I understood, okay? when you left Marcos, you took Diandra's
1:43:46assets — 'cause she already had her Instagram going
1:43:49and all that. That Instagram wasn't Marcos's, it
1:43:52was already Diandra's. It was Diandra's Instagram —
1:43:55and she's right there, guys, hiding off camera. And
1:43:57you're loving this, huh? Damn, congrats!
1:44:00Usually people would've gone home by now. You doing okay over there? All good. You
1:44:04cool? Awesome. If anything's bothering you, if you want to wrap up the podcast,
1:44:08just say the word... Alright. So, anyway, she was making all
1:44:12that content, and then you came in with the
1:44:15VSL, and it started selling like crazy while the content was amplifying it even
1:44:20more, right? So it sounds like you guys were already selling organically from day
1:44:26one. And like, that VSL was always sitting in the link in bio, making sales
1:44:31there too, correct? Yeah.
1:44:33Can you tell me, at the end of the month, what percentage was coming from cold
1:44:37traffic VSL versus organic content? I want the folks at home to understand how
1:44:41significant that is. If you remember, of course. I'd say
1:44:44it was about 70% cold traffic, okay? And about 30% warm
1:44:47traffic. And this is extremely important, because if you have a traffic team, if
1:44:52you understand marketing a bit more and you start building an audience on
1:44:56Instagram, that audience becomes an engagement audience for the traffic side,
1:45:00right? And again, it's a much more qualified audience, because they spend
1:45:04more time with you on Instagram. so the back-end conversion rate is way better.
1:45:08If you have a traffic team and a content team creating that strategic content I
1:45:13just mentioned, you can sell directly, but also indirectly through the audience
1:45:17you build, right? We do this all the time. But there's this stigma, like, the
1:45:22DR guys saying, 'No, I only sell to cold traffic.' And then the organic guys are
1:45:26like, 'No, my business is strictly organic.' But, why not do both?
1:45:31When you run both, you dominate acquisition channels and own people's attention, right?
1:45:35Man, I really think this business model of yours is unique, okay? Because there
1:45:40aren't that many people using this exact structure to net seven figures a month in
1:45:45the info-product space, bro.
1:45:46like, actually, there are some people, but the ones who do are usually
1:45:51the old-school crowd doing launches, like Érico Rocha and those guys. But among the
1:45:56new wave building these modern businesses, like, these ecosystems -
1:46:00then the setup I usually see looks more or less
1:46:03like yours. It's a couple. And the woman,
1:46:06is the influencer and - the expert. I mean,
1:46:09she's the one on Instagram, handling the content side, right? Oh man,
1:46:13"Influencer" is a tricky word. Yeah, not influencer. She's the talent,
1:46:17shows her face, and it works great. She's the face, right? Exactly.
1:46:21I mean, she's usually the one building the connection there, and the
1:46:25guy is the strategist behind the scenes.
1:46:28That tends to work really well. And they all produce content. Skipping content
1:46:32just isn't a thing. Off the top of my head, from past guests on this podcast,
1:46:36there's Elida—she'll pop up on screen. There was
1:46:39also Gimena - she and Juan run something similar.
1:46:42And there's a bunch more, okay? There's Ana Neves and André—they'll pop up on
1:46:46screen too. So there's a whole crowd out there following this formula, and they
1:46:51all produce content. So look how interesting this content thing is, man.
1:46:55If you're watching us right now and you're a co-producer, and you just grab
1:46:59an expert to scale a VSL—like the direct response crowd does, right? Usually, they
1:47:04don't even use an expert. I mean, usually they just slap an avatar or a random face
1:47:08on it and let it rip. But if you're doing that, then you're leaving all this upside
1:47:13on the table, you know?
1:47:14And that upside — you just said it's 30% of your revenue, not counting the funnel
1:47:20itself, and not counting the whole compounding effect, which you can't even
1:47:25measure, 'cause it's something that pays off
1:47:28way later. Dude, that's super interesting.
1:47:30So, look man, once you've actually got that VSL working and you've got all
1:47:35that content being produced, like, really building up the brand, from what I
1:47:40understand here, people could buy straight through Instagram and also
1:47:43through the cold traffic VSL, correct? Obviously they were the exact same offer.
1:47:48And that got you to a certain revenue number, right? Did you manage to
1:47:52hit seven figures with just that setup? Yeah, multiple seven. Multiple
1:47:56seven? That is great stuff, dude. And when exactly was it that you
1:47:59felt the need to... I mean, actually, you mentioned you created that mentorship
1:48:04program, right, for your existing student base. So, like, that was the second offer
1:48:08you built in the business, correct? Yeah. And that one
1:48:12came about because you thought: man, I wanna monetize these
1:48:15people, I'm already building this base, so it's worth selling them one more
1:48:19product. And then, you invited everyone to a live and
1:48:22ran the pitch, right? Yeah, kind of a webinar. A webinar,
1:48:25made the initial sale there, right? Yeah. Pitched an
1:48:28application, then the sales team reached out. Sales team aka
1:48:31Braz and Diandra, right? We called most of them, 'cause zero to one, man, that's
1:48:35pure founder work. It's blood, sweat, you're on the front lines converting.
1:48:39Higher conversion too, since the owners are selling. And we sold a lot on that
1:48:44first launch. It was great. Very cool, man. So, does that offer still exist today?
1:48:50The mentorship, yeah. We reworked it and it's better now, a bit more systemized,
1:48:55right — we used AI to boost our delivery. Like, it depends less on Braz and
1:49:00Diandra now, and it's driving more results, you know? And we kept optimizing
1:49:05it little by little until it got to the level we see today.
1:49:09Awesome, man.and like, nowadays, do
1:49:11you actually have any other offers? Yeah, man,
1:49:14I do. Yeah, sweet, but let's talk about that
1:49:17mentorship first, okay? How do you
1:49:19actually sell that thing today... I mean, this mentorship.
1:49:23Alright. I sell it two ways. We don't call it a mentorship anymore, okay? We
1:49:27call it an acceleration program. Why? Because "mentorship" implied you'd
1:49:31literally get mentoring sessions with Diandra
1:49:33and Braz, and that's not exactly what we offer.
1:49:36We sell a system so she can position herself on Instagram, get her content in
1:49:40front of thousands, and sell to them. Make sense? So it's an acceleration
1:49:44program, not a mentorship.
1:49:46That helped a lot of people, including on the delivery side. Why? Because with a
1:49:51mentorship, the assumption is that the mentor is there to mentor you, right? And
1:49:56that really helped us keep a high NPS on the program, because people came in with
1:50:01the right expectations, you know? So we sell it two ways.
1:50:04The first one is ascension. So people come in through the front-end product, right?
1:50:09They get tagged by our lead score, which is basically a data analysis that reads
1:50:14the profile of the audience. And based on that profile, there are several tiers I
1:50:18categorize, to see what that person's revenue is and whether they have the
1:50:22potential to buy that product. Whether they're qualified. Exactly.
1:50:25Then sales reaches out, books the call, and closes. That's one channel,
1:50:29right? So, based on what I understood here—correct me if I'm wrong—most people
1:50:34call that an application funnel. Basically, once the guy gets inside the
1:50:38members area, he fills out a quick Typeform. If he hits your criteria—like,
1:50:43'I fit this specific profile, I've got this much to invest,' blah, blah,
1:50:47blah—then boom. Your sales team goes right in and grabs him, right? Yeah,
1:50:51exactly. That's one of the main channels, right? Because with the funnel
1:50:56scaling up, we get really high accuracy on the people coming in, you know? And
1:51:00this is a super important point, actually. 'Cause if you don't have solid
1:51:04data on the people entering your funnel, you're leaving a lot of money on the
1:51:08table—like, serious cash. Because it's all data, right? Based on the data you
1:51:12have, you can just steer those people wherever you want them to go.
1:51:15So if I wanna sell, let's say, a three hundred bucks product, or sell her a new
1:51:20business, or become her business partner—with data I can pull it off. I
1:51:24see a lot of people getting this wrong, especially in direct response. They focus
1:51:28on scaling the front end, with no data, no ascension, no idea what's next. And
1:51:33that makes a funnel, but not a company, right?
1:51:36So if you actually want a real company, the first thing people overlook is the
1:51:40data they collect on their own customers. That's extremely important.
1:51:44Awesome, man. For instance we can apply that application funnel you
1:51:48mentioned, right? Yes, exactly. That's one of the
1:51:50channels. The other channel we have is organic. So
1:51:53we make content in that format I described, we call in qualified people,
1:51:57and the sales team books the call. We've got other channels too, like referrals.
1:52:01So we have several acquisition channels feeding
1:52:04the sales team, which is a fairly big team.
1:52:06Right. And on the organic side, do you also have a social seller? I mean, a
1:52:11guy who sits there answering DMs and all that? Yeah. So he grabs it and— ah, got it.
1:52:17Like, the guy can buy through the link in bio, right? So guys, look how
1:52:22interesting this is. You build a VSL, and scale it on cold traffic, but you also
1:52:26drop it in the link in bio and produce content, 'cause then you can scale
1:52:30organically too. And I mean, people will buy eventually, right?
1:52:34So as people flow through the system—actually, Diandra uses this great
1:52:38word, 'flow,' which I hadn't heard in ages. There is steady-state flow and
1:52:42transient flow. You know what that is? Fluid mechanics. Anyway, I ran a whole
1:52:46lot of flow calculations back in the day, man. It's some pretty boring stuff. But
1:52:51yeah, anyway, I got a little sidetracked there.
1:52:54But getting back on track, it's really worth applying that strategy: just
1:52:59put the link in your bio and produce content. Then, once you've actually built
1:53:03the mentorship—which today you call an acceleration program, but back then we
1:53:07just called a mentorship—there are basically two ways to sell it. First,
1:53:11right inside the Instagram DMs with a social seller closing the deal, and then
1:53:16also through that application funnel, right? Yeah. Those
1:53:19are the two main ones today, and the easiest to implement.
1:53:22No doubt about it, man. And which one do you think is the most powerful? I
1:53:26mean, which one should the people at home focus on? Because you've already
1:53:30sophisticated this thing, right? You've got two channels selling that
1:53:34acceleration program. But the guy who's just starting out is only gonna start
1:53:38with one. Do you think he should focus more on the application funnel, or more
1:53:42on the social selling side?
1:53:44Look man, I think it depends a lot on his business model, okay? So if the person
1:53:48has a more robust business model, with higher priced products, in my view,
1:53:53starting with a sales team through Instagram
1:53:55works better. And you may ask: why?
1:53:57'cause you start faster. You grab a phone, you record a video — with the
1:54:01right structure, obviously — and you start bringing in qualified people. Then
1:54:05with the sales team, you book the call and close those higher ticket products,
1:54:09right? Now: Braz, what about cheaper products?
1:54:12Well, with a leaner setup and no sales team, I'd start with a VSL. Just a solid
1:54:16idea solving a real problem. 'cause, I mean, when they come through that VSL,
1:54:20it's like they've already swiped their card with you once.
1:54:23So the odds of them ascending later are way higher, you know?
1:54:27And I see people messing this up all the time, because they make the sale and
1:54:32that's it, done, you know? But thinking as a company, like, thinking long term,
1:54:36the more you get someone to spend inside your structure, the more you can pay per
1:54:41customer and the bigger your market dominance. And the people battling to pay
1:54:45less per customer will get left behind, got it? Absolutely. So we do
1:54:48this a lot here. Like, you know how Meta's been really unstable lately,
1:54:52right? And sometimes traffic isn't performing great, but I say: push it
1:54:56anyway, go hard on the traffic. 'cause I know I'm gonna make money on the back end
1:55:00either way, you know? So that gives me a much better shot
1:55:03at selling to the people I want, instead of
1:55:05my competitor getting them, right? Yeah, for sure.
1:55:09so, man, this whole application funnel thing - I get how it
1:55:12works. It's basically, I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong here, okay?
1:55:18'Cause you guys are the smart ones here, I'm just asking, alright? But from
1:55:22what I understood about the application funnel, the guy goes in, buys through the
1:55:27VSL, then he lands in the members area and gets a survey, which could come by
1:55:31email or could be the first video inside the members area,
1:55:34right? Or it could be WhatsApp. Or through the official
1:55:37API too. Or a Thank you page. Sure. Like, there are
1:55:39all kinds of mechanisms to get that survey over to the
1:55:42person. And in the survey you're basically asking, "hey, are you qualified
1:55:46to buy the more expensive product?" Obviously you don't phrase it like that,
1:55:49right? You ask stuff like: hey, what do you do? How much money? Do you want
1:55:53faster results or not? There's a qualification
1:55:56script you can put together for that.
1:55:58It's not rocket science. Cool, got it and that makes sense. Then the sales
1:56:02rep reaches out, like, 'hey, wanna accelerate? Let's jump on a call.' You
1:56:07run the sales process, boom, sold. Yeah. Ring the bell.
1:56:10That's it. Deal closed, sales notification and money in the bank.
1:56:14Beautiful. But man, looking at Instagram for a second, right? Here's exactly what
1:56:19I picture: Diandra's over there just producing all this content, and all that.
1:56:24there's the link in bio, where the VSL lives, and the person can click,
1:56:29watch the VSL and eventually buy. Or buy straight from
1:56:32a list of the products you have, 'cause there's the
1:56:34VSL, but the acceleration program is in the link in bio too. Oh, so it's already there? But it's a passive route, it
1:56:40depends on whether the person clicks that link. Right. But when they click on that, where do they go? To that same form.
1:56:46Oh, to the form, got it, man. Like, "Apply here for the acceleration program," yadayada, you know? Oh, okay. I thought
1:56:52people were sending DMs and, you know. That too. There are several touchpoints, right? The first one is the link in bio,
1:56:58which is the most passive, 'cause you depend on the person clicking on it.
1:57:02Then there's the case where, when you produce content consistently, people
1:57:05actively start wanting more complete programs with you, more personalized ones.
1:57:10So people message Diandra directly too. And we run sales campaigns where people
1:57:14actively reach out to us. So a story sequence driving to an application, for
1:57:19example, or a piece of content at the end that also has a ManyChat trigger.
1:57:23So you build the whole content structure, and at the end you say: hey, if you have
1:57:27a company with up to five people and you wanna scale your audience — I'm
1:57:30simplifying here — comment the word audience and I'll send it to you.
1:57:33ManyChat fires, the person fills it out,
1:57:35and it lands with the sales team too, right?
1:57:37And then there are some scrappier ways, let's put it that way. Like, sometimes
1:57:42someone comments — say Diandra posts a photo with me, for example — and a woman,
1:57:46for instance, a doctor, goes and comments "wow, amazing, congrats to the couple."
1:57:51Then Diandra checks her profile, sees she's also married, and strikes up a
1:57:55conversation based on her comment. They just chat until it naturally leads to
1:57:59pitching the acceleration program. That's a much higher level of sophistication,
1:58:03alright? An outbound sale. Yeah. It's more sophisticated, but it's another touchpoint.
1:58:08So, you've got a VSL scaling, generating leads and profit on the back end, scaling
1:58:12hard, building awareness. You've got a content sequence over here bringing in a
1:58:16lot of people too, and you've got a good product in the middle, right?
1:58:19Assuming, obviously, that you have a good product. Once you get that wheel
1:58:23spinning, man, you've got tons of leads, tons of revenue, a ton of sales
1:58:27efficiency especially, and you start pulling away from the market, you know?
1:58:31That's why I call it maximum exposure marketing — you're showing up at as many
1:58:35touchpoints as possible for that person. Yeah, got it, man.
1:58:40Hey, hold on, let me interrupt the podcast for a sec. If you could pick
1:58:44anyone in the digital market to sit here on the Scaling Secrets podcast and get
1:58:48interviewed by me, who would it be? Who's the person you'd want here, opening up
1:58:53their numbers, their strategies, the behind the scenes of their operation? If
1:58:57you know who that person is, we built a quick form, it's in the description
1:59:01below, so you can send us your pick.
1:59:03It takes about a minute to fill out. You drop the person's name in there, we'll
1:59:07study them, see how we can fit them in, and eventually, if it makes sense, we'll
1:59:12bring that person onto the podcast, do the interview, and create that content
1:59:16for you at home. So if there's someone you think is worth interviewing, head to
1:59:21the description, drop their name, and that helps us figure out what kind of
1:59:25content is worth creating for you, cool? Alright, let's get back to the podcast.
1:59:29And man, like, how did you build that little operation?
1:59:33Because you started with one SDR, and today you've got a head of sales handling
1:59:38it, you've got a closer. Like, how did that sales operation actually
1:59:42evolved? I mean, the one for the mentorship that became the acceleration
1:59:47program, you know? I wanna understand it so the people at home can get some
1:59:51insights on how to apply this setup and start selling high ticket, right?
1:59:56Because, man, you'd agree with me that your business would be a completely
2:00:00different thing without this. I mean, you'd only have a VSL. And what would
2:00:03probably happen, guys? Like, he'd probably still have high revenue, he'd
2:00:07still be doing multiple seven figures, but I don't think he'd be profiting
2:00:10nearly as much, right? Yeah. Because here's the thing,
2:00:13guys — what's the actual secret here? At least, what do
2:00:16I see? The secret is doing exactly what Braz is doing, and I don't mean the VSL.
2:00:20It's putting these pieces together, building this business model, with the
2:00:24pillars we're talking about.
2:00:26You've got the content, you've got the VSL bringing in new people, and you've
2:00:30got this thing on the back end, the acceleration program, which holds most of
2:00:34the profit — not most of the revenue, most of the profit. Because at the end of
2:00:38the day, that's the whole game, right? It's all about profit.
2:00:42So, man, how can people start building that little sales operation? Because it's
2:00:47a whole different beast, right? It's not about content, or VSLs, or the recording
2:00:51involved. Like, it's conversation, it's energy—it's a different kind of
2:00:56operation, requiring a different kind of professional.
2:00:59G4, for example - they're excellent at this. I've been to their office, and man.
2:01:03Madness, right? Like, total psychos - that's exactly how a sales team should
2:01:07be. They've got flags all over the office, and those guys are closing deals, I mean,
2:01:11like... But that's how it's gotta be, man. I mean, they make a ton of noise.
2:01:15Sales teams thrive on that. Is your team like that? What's it like, man?
2:01:19Tell me how you built that. First thing people need
2:01:22to understand is that this is way more than a little
2:01:24operation. I know you framed it as "little" to encourage people, but if
2:01:28someone comes in thinking it's just a little operation, they'll barely get any
2:01:32results, 'cause they're coming in with the wrong mindset, right?So the main
2:01:35thing you have to understand is: okay, I want a new acquisition channel with a new
2:01:40sales model, so I need to map out a plan to structure it.
2:01:43Like, how much do I want to make? What's my target margin? 'cause usually people
2:01:47don't even know what's left over. They don't track expenses to calculate their
2:01:51true margin, which, at the end of the day, is what actually matters, right?
2:01:55So, based on how much I want to make and where I want the business to go, that's
2:01:59when I start thinking about the team. But from zero to one, like I told you, it was
2:02:03just me, Diandra, and one setter booking calls.
2:02:06We were the ones actually closing, right?
2:02:08So, I actually recommend that you do this, because nobody understands your
2:02:12business better than the founder, the person who owns it.
2:02:15In this case, you would recommend that the founder himself be the closer for the
2:02:19business. Yeah, from zero to one, absolutely.
2:02:21From zero, I don’t recommend hiring a closer.
2:02:23I don’t recommend hiring an SDR. Because there’s a ramp-up process, a maturation
2:02:27process for that person in your operation.
2:02:30So there’s nobody better to sell your product than you are. I’d start by
2:02:34booking sales, testing the offer, testing the product, and really going all in. At
2:02:38this point, it’s much more about hard work and execution than inspiration.
2:02:41“Braz, I made my first sales, and it’s actually working.” Great, now I can start
2:02:45thinking about bringing in a few more people.
2:02:48I’d think about bringing in at least one SDR. An SDR can book quite a few calls,
2:02:51depending on the amount of volume you have coming in.
2:02:54What would you consider a reasonable number of calls?
2:02:57Man, for the first stage, I think around four or five calls a day is a really good
2:03:01level, okay? That’s a solid number for an SDR, right? If you have one or two people
2:03:05handling the sales side, I think having one SDR is more than enough for the first
2:03:10stage of the operation.
2:03:11If you have one or two people handling the sales, plus this SDR, do you think
2:03:15that’s a good setup to start with?
2:03:16Yeah, if you have other sales structures in place. Now, if you depend only on the
2:03:20sales team, you’re obviously gonna have to put more pressure on it. But again,
2:03:24everything depends on the business model you built and where you’re trying to go.
2:03:29I’m basically giving you the MVP of a sales team here, you know? That was the
2:03:32flow. Did you actually build those SDR processes yourself? Did you go on Claude
2:03:36and say, “Man, give me a basic process so I can get started,” and then start
2:03:40digging into the root causes of the business from first principles, figuring
2:03:43things out and improving the process from there? Or how did you actually create
2:03:47that whole process? Did you get consulting from someone who already knew
2:03:50how to do this and had experience building these kinds of processes? Yeah,
2:03:54we have this mindset in the company that money buys time, energy, and
2:03:57resources. So once you’re able to build up cash and establish a solid cash base,
2:04:02it doesn’t really make sense to go out and test a completely new acquisition
2:04:06channel entirely on your own without any outside support or expertise, you know?
2:04:10It’s much easier to hire some kind of expertise, whether that’s a consulting
2:04:14firm, advisory support, or whatever it may be, so you can avoid unnecessary
2:04:18mistakes, and improve your results along the way.
2:04:21We hired a consulting firm, they looked at our business, and then we started
2:04:24building everything together. Obviously, it’s a consulting firm, not a miracle,
2:04:28okay? So you need the SDR structure, the SDR playbook, the closer playbook, and
2:04:31all of those processes get built and refined as you keep selling, right? So
2:04:34the more you sell, the more people you hire, and where you ultimately want to go
2:04:38depends a lot on the type of team you’re building and the people you’re bringing
2:04:41into the operation, you know?
2:04:43So it’s extremely important to have that clarity around your business goals. For
2:04:47example, in our case, we started with one SDR, then went to two, and today we have
2:04:51three, okay? Three or four, but one of them just left, so we have three right
2:04:55now. We hired closers gradually as well, but what do I always recommend to people?
2:04:59You have to understand that a sales team might be the most difficult team to
2:05:03manage in the entire company. Why?
2:05:05Exactly because of what you said. You need a bunch of crazy people beating the
2:05:09drum, wanting to hit their targets, absolute
2:05:11psychos, and you have to keep those people in check.
2:05:13No, you can’t hire someone who’s too nice, someone who’s just average, like a
2:05:16hot dog water, because that person is probably not going to be able to apply
2:05:19the pressure you need to hit the targets and
2:05:22drive the sales team forward. Hot dog water?
2:05:24That whole mediocre, middle-of-the-road thing
2:05:27isn’t fun at all, you know? So that's it. Great.
2:05:31And that’s what a sales team is all about, you have to keep beating the drum
2:05:33and build a really strong culture.
2:05:35But there is, so, from what I’m understanding, you hired a consulting
2:05:38firm to help you figure out and solve that part of the business.
2:05:43But what was it? Was it a consulting firm? You
2:05:46can say who it was, right? Was it a another firm?
2:05:48It was Full Sales, the folks from Full Sales. Yeah, from Matutinho.
2:05:52Guys, there’s a podcast with Matheus, okay? It’s gonna show up on the screen.
2:05:56It was one of the craziest podcasts I’ve ever recorded. Yeah?
2:05:59That guy really loves to talk, right? He’s got a whole lot to say.
2:06:02Man, how long did Matheus talk for? Four and a half hours? He loves it. Put that
2:06:06on the screen. Man, I’ve never seen someone talk that much. I even told him,
2:06:10“Come on man, stop,” but he broke the record.
2:06:12He keeps going and going. He’s basically a walking glossary, right?
2:06:16Yeah, he’s really good, man. He’s awesome. Matheus helps a lot of
2:06:19people in the digital space, especially when it comes to the sales side, right?
2:06:23He actually goes in and implements things. It’s really great.
2:06:27But one really important thing is that we built a large, well-structured sales team
2:06:31only once we already had predictable revenue coming in from these
2:06:34higher-ticket products. We don’t have just one of them, okay?
2:06:38We launched at least three higher-ticket products, okay? And once we started
2:06:41having predictable revenue and really understood where we wanted to go, we
2:06:44started putting all the pieces together. So, for example, if we want to increase
2:06:48our margin and sell to that many people, we need to hire the right people to make
2:06:52those numbers happen. So it’s basically reverse engineering the hiring process
2:06:55based on where you want the business to go. It’s not just hiring people for the
2:06:59sake of hiring, because that would be crazy, you know?
2:07:01So, again, if you don’t know exactly how much revenue you’re making, what your
2:07:05margins look like, when it’s the right time to grow, and how much room you have
2:07:08to grow, man, don’t grow yet, you know? At least understand how far you want to
2:07:12take the business. That’s my view.
2:07:15I understand. And, man... just how effective was that whole process? Without
2:07:19a doubt, Matheus’s consulting is excellent, because he’s really good at
2:07:23what he does, okay, guys? Otherwise, I wouldn’t have invited him onto the
2:07:27podcast in the first place, and I definitely
2:07:30wouldn’t have brought him to talk about this topic.
2:07:33Yeah, but without a doubt, you had to make things much more sophisticated. You
2:07:37probably thought, “Man, I’m figuring out what actually works for your specific
2:07:41business model and operation.” You know? Did you end up changing a lot of the
2:07:45processes, especially the closing process, and refining everything until
2:07:48the business really started paying for itself and the entire operation was
2:07:52finally running smoothly on its own?
2:07:54Did it take a long time for the whole thing to really get going and start
2:07:58working properly? Or did you basically get everything ready, plug it all in, and
2:08:02have the operation start working right away?
2:08:04Yeah, I always say that we had a lot of demand because we had generated a huge
2:08:08amount of demand, so people were coming in in very large numbers all the time.
2:08:13So that made up for some of the initial inefficiency of a team that was still
2:08:17being built, because we had so much volume, you know? Like I told you, there
2:08:20was a lot of demand from paid traffic, a lot of organic demand, and people were
2:08:24coming in from everywhere. And when you have a lot of water filling your bathtub
2:08:28and the drain is small, it’s normal to have some inefficiencies, right? You’re
2:08:31gonna have some losses along the way.
2:08:34So we compensated for the inefficiency of the initial sales team with a high volume
2:08:38of leads, you know? But obviously, a sales team,
2:08:40or really any team that doesn’t continuously adapt
2:08:43and evolve over time, is a team that’s ultimately destined to fail. You know? So
2:08:47even today, we constantly bring this up in our weekly meetings with the team.
2:08:51What do we need to improve? What did we do last week that actually generated
2:08:55results? And where are we trying to go based
2:08:57on the goal we’ve set for the business?
2:08:59So you adjust the SDR process, adjust the closer process, adjust the process for
2:09:03booking calls so people actually show up for them. There are several different
2:09:07areas where, if you don’t have that knowledge, you’re gonna be a little
2:09:10slower when it comes to making decisions. You know? Today, we have a sales
2:09:14leader, but every single week we go through
2:09:17everything check by check, looking at those goals and improvements so we can
2:09:21keep ramping up and strengthening our sales team. It’s a war.
2:09:26Very good, man. So today, from what I understand, you said you have several
2:09:30higher-ticket products. But essentially, the way you guys make money is: you have
2:09:34content production, which builds the brand, and you have your VSL, where you
2:09:38bring in new buyers and new followers at no direct cost, in theory, because you’re
2:09:42selling a product while paying Facebook to bring that traffic into the business
2:09:46and reach more potential buyers.
2:09:48And ideally, I think you’re already making a profit on that initial sale,
2:09:52right? And then you also have those higher-ticket products, with the sales
2:09:55team really crushing it and driving those sales.
2:09:58So that increases your margin and ultimately your profit at the end of the
2:10:02month. Do you have automated ways of handling that monetization, like webinars
2:10:06or things along those lines, or do you basically do everything through calls,
2:10:10with the sales team handling that entire process directly?
2:10:13Depending on the product’s price point, you can structure how you’re going to
2:10:17sell that product, right? So, how does our sales funnel actually work? Today, we
2:10:20have a front-end that’s scaling aggressively, and our average ticket is
2:10:24really high. Our front-end average ticket is almost five hundred reais.
2:10:28With the whole funnel structure. So that gives us a strong foundation to pay more
2:10:32for the customer and capture more of the market. Second, we have what we call a
2:10:36method product, based on that sequence from DotCom Secrets, you know? The
2:10:40solution product, the method product, and then the next one.
2:10:43So a method product has a mid-range price point, okay? Today, our product is three
2:10:48thousand reais, and we use that product to sell through a weekly webinar. It’s a
2:10:53webinar that happens every single week, basically automated, and we monetize the
2:10:57people who are coming in here. So you guys have a webinar too? We run the automated
2:11:02webinar every week for the people coming in. So the person
2:11:05comes in “You’re gonna take this class here, and at the end, there’ll be an
2:11:08opportunity for you to take the next step.” Webinar, three thousand reais, the
2:11:12person comes in. And that alone already increases the margin a lot, right? By
2:11:16increasing the margin, again, I can pay more for the customer at the front end.
2:11:19Dan Kennedy even talks about this. Wow, Dan Kennedy, huh? The kid did his
2:11:24homework. He's the real deal. Ask the copywriters today in direct response if
2:11:28they know who Dan Kennedy is. Dan Kennedy is the real deal right?
2:11:32They only know how to model. So yeah, because whoever can pay
2:11:35more for the customer is the one who dominates the market, right?
2:11:38So, alright, we have the weekly ascension program with a webinar, and our offer is
2:11:42really strong. After that, we have the acceleration program, which is the next
2:11:46step. And then our next product, which is our most expensive product, costs more
2:11:49than one hundred thousand reais. It’s a product where we build and develop the
2:11:53person’s personal brand, creating that brand
2:11:55around the person and their positioning.
2:11:57So we build the entire positioning, we build the entire content strategy, and we
2:12:01handle all of that for the person. It’s a completely done-for-you product, you
2:12:05know? This product, just to give you an idea, we have quite a few clients in this
2:12:09program, and we have a 98% success rate. So what does that actually mean in
2:12:13practice, and how does that work for the client?
2:12:16Ninety-eight percent of our clients hit the goal in their very first month. So
2:12:20what’s our promise, right? Basically, one million views during the period when we
2:12:24deliver the solution. Usually, they hit that goal within one month. Some clients
2:12:28even reach one million followers in three months.
2:12:31Because we have a very clear differentiator, which is using copy, that
2:12:34funnel I told you about, to scale people’s image. And then there are a lot
2:12:37of people coming in, a lot of demand. So we have a really good success rate with
2:12:41this product. And then we keep moving people up, right?
2:12:43That’s the point. Because creating products just for the sake of creating
2:12:46them, like, “Man, I’m gonna create the next product because people asked for it,
2:12:50because some guy told me to,” is the worst way to build products. Now, if you
2:12:54can understand what the next step is that a person needs within your product line,
2:12:57you can create a much smoother and more natural ascension, right? And now we’re
2:13:01moving into technology too. I can’t talk about this yet, so, stay tuned for the
2:13:05next chapter, but people will know when we enter that market.
2:13:08Good, man. I definitely recommend it. Technology is good. Less video, man.
2:13:12Video handles the payments, and payments are the real secret. In digital, at
2:13:16least, if you analyze the entire chain here, you’ll see that the person making
2:13:21the most money is the guy processing the payments. Except for Meta, of course,
2:13:25right? Like, you sold your product for one hundred reais.
2:13:29Man, if it’s cold traffic, fifty reais of that goes to Meta.
2:13:33Then the payment processor gets paid ten reais, and YouTube gets around fifty
2:13:37cents to one real, depending on the customer. But payments alone, excluding
2:13:41Meta, are the best business model, because they take 10% of the guy’s
2:13:44revenue, sometimes even more. There’s the fee, of course, so it’s technically less
2:13:48than 10%, but then you have the interest you charge through the platform, early
2:13:52payouts, all these different things, plus the float from the money sitting there.
2:13:56So that business model is pretty insane.
2:13:59It’s a killer business model, but because there are a lot of big competitors, the
2:14:02sharks, like we were talking about earlier today, maybe it’s not necessarily
2:14:06the best business model for that particular person, you know? So that’s a
2:14:09really important point to understand.
2:14:11Yeah, there’s founder-market fit, right? There’s
2:14:13the founder fit too. Exactly. So the cool
2:14:15thing... But it’s hard to compete with payments,
2:14:17man. It’s hard because, that business is
2:14:19so good. The money business is the best business there is, right? Yeah.
2:14:23Except for the whole banking thing, which Diane mentioned, she said, “Guys, I
2:14:26should get into payments and build a bank,” or something like that. I didn’t
2:14:29even remember that. And if you’re interested, let
2:14:31me know in the comments so I know whether I should
2:14:33build this solution. You forgot to say that, man.
2:14:35Yeah, guys, if anyone wants to put some money into V Bank, go ahead, okay?
2:14:40V Bank? That’s a strong name. V Bank, man, that’s
2:14:43strong. Hold on. It is not Nubank. It's V Bank.
2:14:47That's it, man, in a few months, you guys just wait, okay?
2:14:50Easy credit. Yeah, but the interest will be high, guys. It has
2:14:53to be low interest to attract customers. No, but I want to
2:14:56make money. The idea is to sell at a higher price. Yeah, but,
2:14:59man, I get it. And you said that the way to build this product line isn’t
2:15:03necessarily by listening to customers and following everything they ask for, 100%.
2:15:07We have to know how to differentiate what’s actually worth pursuing from what
2:15:11isn’t, and understand which opportunities make sense for the business and which
2:15:15ones we should simply ignore.
2:15:17And you also said you used Russell Brunson’s method to think through how you
2:15:21could create these other products. From what I understand, that method is
2:15:24basically keeping the same promise, while changing the level of delivery and the
2:15:28way you actually deliver the solution to the customer, depending on how much
2:15:32support and involvement the customer needs throughout the process.
2:15:35So in the beginning, for example, the promise is: you’re going to go viral
2:15:39online. First, it’s a course where the person does the work themselves. Then you
2:15:43can sell a group coaching program where the work is done together with the
2:15:47person, side by side throughout the process. And eventually, I do the work
2:15:51entirely for the person, which is the most expensive product of all.
2:15:55Yeah, from what I understand, that’s basically how you created your product
2:15:59line, okay? Man, can you give me some more details here? What didn’t I ask you?
2:16:03What does everyone watching at home really need to understand when it comes
2:16:06to creating a product line that’s actually profitable, works consistently,
2:16:10and makes sense for the business over the long term, while also creating a clear
2:16:14path for customers to move forward?
2:16:16What do people usually get wrong, and what do you think you did well? If I can
2:16:20talk a little bit about that. Okay, cool.
2:16:23The biggest mistake people make when creating products today is trying to
2:16:27deliver too much, including things people don’t actually need, you know? So what
2:16:31happens? When people sell higher-ticket products, they want to give their
2:16:35customers absolutely everything.
2:16:37And what kind of problem does that create? It creates frustration, because
2:16:40the person can’t absorb everything you’re trying to teach them, so they end up
2:16:44getting frustrated. If they get frustrated, they don’t get results from
2:16:47the product, they don’t recommend that product, and your long-term solution
2:16:50basically dies right there, you know? So the main improvement we made was figuring
2:16:54out what people actually want, and then offering that to them.
2:16:57“Ah, but I can offer other solutions.” Don’t. Why? Because it’s really
2:17:00difficult, right? If I go into a coaching program and tell the person I’m going to
2:17:04teach them everything they need to know, everything that I know, man, they’re
2:17:07gonna get lost, they’re gonna freeze, and
2:17:09they’re not gonna want to actually do anything.
2:17:11So that was one of the main lessons we learned. When we created our first
2:17:14coaching program, we wanted to do everything for the person. We wanted to
2:17:17teach them how to create content, build a funnel, and basically teach them how to
2:17:20do everything themselves. But people were
2:17:22getting frustrated. Why? Because they get stuck.
2:17:25So once you understand exactly what the person needs and offer that specific
2:17:28solution to them, you can build a product that lasts much longer. And the second
2:17:32point is about higher-ticket products, right?
2:17:34Much more important than the result you generate, and this is a huge insight,
2:17:37okay? Much more important than the result itself is how you demonstrate that the
2:17:41result is actually being achieved. Let me give you an example: if I come to you and
2:17:45make a promise that you’re going to go viral online and build a strong personal
2:17:49brand, you go out there and actually achieve that result, and then you can
2:17:52clearly show that it happened.
2:17:53Okay, nothing changes. Six months go by, you get the result, great. Now, if I come
2:17:58to you every single month and show you what improvements you’ve made month by
2:18:02month, basically showing you the progress you’re making, the chances of you getting
2:18:07more excited about the product, referring it to more people, and staying satisfied
2:18:11with a high NPS are much higher. And that makes
2:18:14the product much more sustainable over time, right?
2:18:17A good product isn’t just a product that makes you money. That’s the mindset of a
2:18:21funnel guy who only cares about making money, you know? A good product, when you
2:18:25think about it from a company perspective, is a product that has
2:18:28longevity and is so good that people recommend it and keep renewing.
2:18:31That’s where the money is, you know? Obviously, you make money from that
2:18:34monetization and from getting people’s attention, for sure, but you make a lot
2:18:37more money when people keep renewing those products, you know?
2:18:40Those were the two main lessons that I see a lot of people getting wrong.
2:18:46I get it, man. Essentially, we shouldn’t try to deliver too much. We have to
2:18:50understand exactly what the person needs and then deliver that specific thing to
2:18:53them, in a way that doesn’t overwhelm them or make it harder for them to absorb
2:18:57the solution. And one way to make sure they’re aware that they’re constantly
2:19:01progressing is simply to tell them, “Man, look, this happened, this happened, this
2:19:05happened,” and show them the progress they’ve been making along the way.
2:19:08Just the fact that you speak about it already greatly increases the person's
2:19:12level of awareness regarding your solution. The power of this is absurd,
2:19:15okay? Increases the perception of success.
2:19:17That’s huge. Even if they’re not having a ton of success, too. Because if the
2:19:20person isn’t executing very well and isn’t getting that much of a result, but
2:19:24they can clearly see that we’re putting in the effort and doing everything we can
2:19:28to help them get results, that alone can become a strong reason for them to renew.
2:19:31That’s extremely important, okay? It took us a long time to understand that, we
2:19:35paid a high price to learn that lesson, and once
2:19:38we understood it, it completely changed our game.
2:19:41Very good. But all of this really starts with that point you made about
2:19:44understanding what they actually need, right?
2:19:47And how do you actually understand what they need? Is it through an interview
2:19:50where you bring the person in and ask them questions about what they need?
2:19:53There’s a book I’d recommend if you guys want to learn more about this. It’s
2:19:56called "The Mom Test," and it basically helps you discover what features you
2:20:00could add to your software by conducting interviews with customers. So it’s more
2:20:04of a book focused on the technology market, because there’s a specific way
2:20:08you need to approach a conversation with a customer so they actually give you the
2:20:11information you’re looking for during those interviews.
2:20:14But I wanted to know how you actually do it, man, or how you did it, so you didn’t
2:20:18fall into that trap of figuring out what the person really needs so you can create
2:20:22products that are genuinely good, without making that mistake you guys talked
2:20:26about, where you try to do a bunch of different things, end up overwhelming the
2:20:30person with too much information, and eventually end up hurting the product
2:20:33itself. There are two things you need to do to create a winning higher-ticket product,
2:20:37in my view, okay? The first one, and believe it or not, this still exists
2:20:41today, is actually talking directly to your customer and understanding what they
2:20:44have to say. Right? So, no, it’s not about analyzing
2:20:47things in the cloud, and it’s not about doing
2:20:49data analysis or looking at cohorts. No, you’re gonna sit your ass down, get on a
2:20:54call with your customer, and understand what
2:20:56their biggest difficulties and challenges are.
2:20:58This still exists, okay, guys? It’s not some outdated thing from the days of the
2:21:02Greeks and Trojans, nothing like that. So, sit your ass down, talk to your
2:21:05customer, and understand what their needs are, right? And the second point is, you
2:21:09need to have a really strong market analysis. So you have to be, this is
2:21:12where I really put a lot of value on direct response, because they’re absolute
2:21:15funnel nerds, right? They’re people who really live and breathe funnels.
2:21:18So you have to get into your competitors funnels. That’s not wrong, it’s not a
2:21:22crime, it’s completely normal in business. People and companies often
2:21:25model solutions from other companies, and there’s nothing wrong with that. In any
2:21:29market, because it’s relatively easy to copy.
2:21:32Instagram went there and took Snapchat's stories.
2:21:34Totally, the TikTok reels and that is fine, you
2:21:37know? This isn’t just a digital thing, guys. It’s a
2:21:39real-world thing. Yeah, there’s a world outside of
2:21:42digital. I don’t know if you guys know that, but
2:21:44it exists. It’s not a myth. Okay?
2:21:46And when you manage to get into your competitors' funnels and actually
2:21:50understand what they're selling, it starts making sense. Because those
2:21:53competitors probably invested a ton of resources and energy into improving their
2:21:57products. So they're operating at a higher level of accuracy.
2:22:00So you take that, talk to your clients, understand what's working in the market,
2:22:05and put those two things together. That way you nail the exact solution they
2:22:09need, right? You take the best of both worlds, build your solution—obviously
2:22:13based on your expertise—and create a solid product. One that solves a very
2:22:17specific pain point or desire. Because trying to solve multiple is just shooting
2:22:21yourself in the foot, for sure. No doubt about it, man. But...
2:22:27Like, you mentioned earlier that you have several products, right? You said
2:22:32you have products selling for a hundred grand? Over a hundred. Over a
2:22:36hundred. Damn. And did you learn that from the guys over at Full Sales?
2:22:40Were they the ones who taught you how to run that whole thing?
2:22:44We actually had the products before that. We only hired them for the sales side.
2:22:49But why did we have those products? Man, again: market analysis. When we stopped
2:22:55to look at where the market was, we saw that
2:22:58people were tired of generic solutions, right?
2:23:01Obviously, the info-product and education markets scaled, generic solutions spiked,
2:23:06and then plateau. So right now—especially with AI making everything even more
2:23:11generic—consumers just want highly personalized solutions.
2:23:15They want to feel the essence, they want that human contact, they crave that
2:23:19connection. So they want high-proximity products, stuff that's more tailor-made,
2:23:24highly personalized, right? By analyzing that market shift, we realized we needed
2:23:29to move into a more custom space, beyond just standard info-products. That's when
2:23:33we jumped into the mentorship and done-for-you
2:23:36space, offering actual high-end services.
2:23:39So by analyzing market and consumer trends, we built two products with strong
2:23:43product-market fit, completely nailing our thesis, you know? Now we sell both of
2:23:48them really well. But again, it all comes down to market timing.
2:23:52Yeah. That's interesting. I keep wondering, man, if I should do something
2:23:56like that over at VTurb, you know?
2:23:59Because there's a ton of guys like you who run VSLs, and I could just build an
2:24:03internal VTurb team, get a copywriter we'd train up to help VTurb users scale
2:24:07their offers. I actually think that would work really well, you know? Something
2:24:12along those lines. The thing is, I have absolutely no idea how to pull that off.
2:24:16Like, what to deliver, how much to charge, or even how to sell it.
2:24:21I actually tried doing this in the past, but I sold it way too cheap. I used to
2:24:25charge like six grand a month for a retainer. And my team back then,
2:24:30was Tiago Filemon and Lucas Rêgo, okay? Just to give you an idea. I mean, those
2:24:35kids were basically the Neymar and Messi of
2:24:38copy, you know? All that for six grand a month.
2:24:41It was insane, right? And what was my core promise? Basically that I'd run
2:24:45at least one AB test per month, maybe more, but at least one, that would easily
2:24:50beat your control multiple times over. So that split test alone was worth way more
2:24:54than the six grand. And then we'd actually deliver
2:24:57like one winner a week. Just massive hits. A guy
2:25:00making a hundred grand suddenly hits two hundred. Then another guy started around
2:25:04150, and went straight to over a million. That's
2:25:07crazy! Yeah, man. So why did you kill that product?
2:25:09Because Tiago and Lucas are super hyped, right? So they went off to do
2:25:13their own things. The fame got to their heads.
2:25:15Just kidding. No, man, those guys... I mean,
2:25:18they honestly should, right? Because they are
2:25:21insanely good. Man, Tiago is crazy good - like,
2:25:24he did like a billion in revenue over at BH.
2:25:27So I was basically charging way too little, and it just wasn't really worth
2:25:31it for me, you know? But at the same time, I couldn't charge much more because
2:25:35my sales process wasn't that solid. I couldn't get people to really see the
2:25:39value. But I still have that idea today. Like, hiring a copywriter, plugging them
2:25:44in, and helping VTurb clients scale up.
2:25:46I could charge for it. And plus, it helps the client scale, meaning they'll upgrade
2:25:50their software plan, and end up paying me more on the backend too.
2:25:54Exactly. My only real concern was competing against my own partners, because a lot of
2:25:59VTurb partners run their own mentorships, right? So I didn't want to launch a
2:26:02mentorship just to compete with those guys, because that feels pretty messed
2:26:06up. So I'd have to figure out a way to build a
2:26:09product that, you know. Did you actually ask them?
2:26:12Look, I never asked, man, but to me it just seemed kind of obvious, you know?
2:26:16Like, if they're teaching someone... Let's say, if you have a VSL coaching
2:26:21program, and João starts a coaching program too, why would you send your
2:26:25leads to João to feed his backend and lose your own mentorship sales? At that
2:26:29point, they might just stop recommending us, or tell people to just go on YouTube
2:26:33instead, something like that. Well, business is business,
2:26:36right? But you said something super
2:26:38interesting: I couldn't charge a higher price.
2:26:40But here's a crucial point people really need to grasp. Sometimes you don't even
2:26:44need to charge more. If you have a highly dialed-in operational efficiency, you can
2:26:49actually charge a bit less, but walk away with a much wider margin. Because
2:26:53sometimes your competitor charges top dollar, but they have a massive, bloated
2:26:57corporate structure, so at the end of the day,
2:26:59their net profit isn't even that great, you know?
2:27:02So we focused heavily on delivery efficiency across all our products.
2:27:07Today, we run these high-ticket offers with absolutely absurd margins. Why?
2:27:12Because our delivery efficiency is just insane. Delivery efficiency, man? Yeah,
2:27:16exactly. So what I'm hearing is that you
2:27:18deliver a really high-end product while keeping
2:27:21costs super low. That's what I'm getting. Is
2:27:23that what you mean? Yeah, minimal costs. Or is it
2:27:25fast delivery? Both... And why spending less?
2:27:28When you have real delivery efficiency, you can
2:27:30automate a lot of the processes, you actually improve your clients' results,
2:27:34and as a natural byproduct, you can scale much harder.
2:27:37How does that look in practice? Today, every single product inside our company
2:27:42is completely playbook-driven from end to end, across every phase. It's incredibly
2:27:47well-structured. Basically, there's even this quote from Leonardo Da Vinci: You
2:27:51measure the level of complexity of a system when there is absolutely nothing
2:27:56left to take away from it.
2:27:58Not sure if that's actually Da Vinci, but I think so. How does it go again? You
2:28:02measure— You can measure the complexity of a system not by how much stuff is in it,
2:28:06but by how much stuff you can't remove. That's true operational efficiency, okay?
2:28:11So, like, the harder it is to remove something, the more complex it actually
2:28:16is? Exactly. People spend all this time trying to add more solutions, stack more
2:28:20deliverables, hire more people, thinking it makes the product better, but it's the
2:28:25exact opposite. Operational efficiency means that when you have almost nothing
2:28:29left to strip away, that system is actually highly complex. Why? Because
2:28:33every single piece relies entirely on the others to function, you know?
2:28:37And I apply that logic to products.
2:28:39If everything is dialed in, with virtually zero leaks throughout the
2:28:43entire delivery pipeline, I can overdeliver and drive better results with
2:28:47a much smaller headcount. Which then allows me to sometimes offer a more
2:28:51competitive price, generate massive wins, and make the offer completely unbeatable.
2:28:55We apply that to all our products, especially the high-ticket ones. We're
2:28:59constantly operating with a mindset of leverage and scale, you know?
2:29:03Yeah. Got it, man. Makes total sense. I mean, they say simplicity is the
2:29:08ultimate sophistication. Yeah, exactly! I think
2:29:10that's the quote Da Vinci actually said. I'm mixing
2:29:13up my Da Vinci quotes, but I'm pretty sure he said that one, not the other one.
2:29:17Look it up and put it on screen, editor. Just kidding. Tiago, just
2:29:20do whatever Braz is telling you, man. If Braz said to look it up,
2:29:23bro, just do it. Throw it on the screen, check if it was actually Da Vinci,
2:29:27alright? Find out who said it and put it up. Oh,
2:29:29and throw up who won the FIFA match too, okay?
2:29:31Just to make the podcast a bit cooler. I'm gonna crush
2:29:34your skull, dude. Yeah, we'll see about that, man...
2:29:37So, man, how can people actually, like, what exact path should they take to
2:29:42build out these high delivery efficiency products? And by the way, did you invent
2:29:47that term, delivery efficiency? Because I'm pretty
2:29:50sure I've never heard anyone use that before.
2:29:53No man, I think it's not a term, well, actually, I don't know. I just call
2:29:58it that way. I have no idea, really. I figured they
2:30:01were normal words. I figured some consultant said: You
2:30:04need high delivery efficiency. It's our unique mechanism,
2:30:07okay? The delivery efficiency of the Mona Lisa.
2:30:14Look at that, guys, that's the copywriter's instinct. That's what we
2:30:17just caught live on camera, pure copywriter street smarts. Notice how
2:30:20quickly he pulled that out? It's all about connecting the dots, man. You
2:30:24smoothly tied it back to the Mona Lisa thing. That's the
2:30:26two brain cells firing... Leonardo da Vinci's operational
2:30:29efficiency. Go ahead and trademark that and tell my legal team. That term is mine.
2:30:36That's brilliant, man. But seriously, how does that process of extracting
2:30:40efficiency from these products actually work? Because from what I'm gathering,
2:30:44this is something you clearly spent a lot of time dialing in, right? And
2:30:48essentially, as far as I can tell, it's all
2:30:50about making the whole thing highly scalable.
2:30:52So I'm assuming you have to hire people to execute the fulfillment for you.
2:30:56Here's what I'm picturing in my head, right? I'm guessing we have to sit down
2:31:00and map out what the deliverables are, and what the person needs to do. Okay, so
2:31:03what I don't need to be personally doing? Great, I remove myself from that piece.
2:31:08Then, what really needs my attention? Or better yet - what's the bare minimum I
2:31:12can do that people actually want from me?
2:31:15Okay, so there are a few key elements to structuring a solid product. It all stems
2:31:20from the core concept of growth, right? Growth marketing basics. First, you have
2:31:24an idea, form a hypothesis, run tests, and validate or invalidate it. So the
2:31:28first thing you have to figure out is: where
2:31:31do I even start? And where should you start?
2:31:34You need to map out your baseline delivery process, alright? and what
2:31:37does that look like? The person buys, they enter their customer lifecycle, and
2:31:41they need to attend a few calls. I'm using a mentorship as an example here. So
2:31:45they show up to some meetings, complete specific cycles and tasks, and by the
2:31:49end, they walk away with a specific output.
2:31:51Perfect. Once I've mapped the exact flow a client goes through from the moment
2:31:55they pay—and by the way, payment and signing the contract are part of this
2:31:59flow. So from the second they sign that contract up to the moment they get their
2:32:03first win, you have to know exactly what the
2:32:05deliverables are. And here is the most crucial part.
2:32:08Once you lock in the deliverables, you have to eliminate all friction. That's step one.
2:32:13Well, step two, actually. So, where might friction pop up regarding the team? I'll
2:32:18give you an example. We were running into
2:32:20this issue a lot—whenever a client joined our
2:32:23mentorship, or rather, our old mentorship model, they'd get a full business audit,
2:32:27right? We'd send them this audit within 48 hours.
2:32:30That's the target timeframe, because we noticed that if it took longer than 48
2:32:35hours, satisfaction dropped, which directly hurt their activation rate
2:32:39inside the program. So we compressed that window
2:32:42down to exactly 48 hours. That became our KPI.
2:32:45Right after the audit call, they had to fill out an intake form so we could
2:32:49understand their business under the hood. But what was happening? People did the
2:32:53call but completely ignored the form. Meaning we had tons of clients, and zero
2:32:58clue about their actual businesses or bottlenecks. So, what did we do?
2:33:02We simply moved that intake form to before the audit call. Basically saying:
2:33:07Hey, to get on this audit call, you have to fill out this form first.
2:33:11It was a friction point, and instantly it wasn't anymore. Make sense? The second
2:33:15you have the flow fully mapped out, you spot the bottlenecks. Then it's just
2:33:19about moving them around. There's actually a whole theory on this—the
2:33:22Theory of Constraints. There's always a bottleneck in any workflow. The real
2:33:26question is: where do you strategically want it to be?
2:33:29It's all about shifting bottlenecks. I moved the form upstream, and suddenly,
2:33:33everyone filled it out. And you do that across
2:33:36the entire pipeline. Why is this critical?
2:33:39When you have this machine perfectly oiled, you can run it with way fewer
2:33:43employees, and you can automate a massive chunk of it using AI, right? I mean, the
2:33:47operational flow, obviously, not the core coaching delivery. And overall, you
2:33:51dramatically reduce customer friction.
2:33:53Which ultimately drives insane operational efficiency. You see what I
2:33:57mean? Got it, man. Obviously, I just broke down a
2:34:0048-hour window, but this framework applies to the
2:34:02entire monthly cycle of the mentorship program. You just map out all that data
2:34:06and find the gaps. That was just one
2:34:09practical example that worked incredibly well.
2:34:12Yeah... Let me ask you a few questions here. But first—where did you
2:34:16even learn or pick up that phrase, "theory of constraints"? Where did you
2:34:20get that from, did somebody teach you that? It's a real theory,
2:34:23okay? And like I was saying... well, actually I didn't mention
2:34:26this yet. But where did you actually learn it? I actually learned
2:34:30it from Dércio and Duda. The theory of constraints works for
2:34:33a lot of different, slightly more complex systems. Let me give you a quick example.
2:34:38Well, here's a great example. Back when they were doing heavy corporate
2:34:43consulting, they visited this one manufacturing plant. Oh, you mean
2:34:46Duda? Duda and Dércio. I'll share their story so you understand it. Wait,
2:34:50Duda is Marcos Duda, right? Yeah. Got it. Now I'm following. So, they
2:34:54visited this brick manufacturing plant. Like, they literally made bricks,
2:34:58right? And to boost production and increase revenue
2:35:01look, I'm summarizing the story here, okay?
2:35:04management went out and bought an extra kiln. This crazy
2:35:07expensive, multi-million dollar oven, expecting revenue to skyrocket.
2:35:11More production, more revenue, everybody wins, right? But they realized revenue
2:35:16stayed flat, despite this massive capital investment. So they dug in to find out
2:35:20why. They ran a deep bottleneck analysis on the system—where the brick hits the
2:35:25conveyor belt, passes through several ovens—or whatever they're called. Then at
2:35:30the end of the line, a guy packages it up. It was a simple assembly line process.
2:35:35And during this analysis, they figured out exactly why buying that extra
2:35:39multi-million dollar oven wasn't moving the needle on revenue. The bottleneck
2:35:44trace revealed that one of the crucial heating elements was completely blown out.
2:35:48Yeah. It was the brick drying phase—I forget the exact term.
2:35:52So basically, they just fixed that one broken drying unit, and almost instantly
2:35:56doubled or tripled total plant production. Because the bottleneck was
2:36:00never a lack of ovens; the bottleneck was that one broken dryer holding everything
2:36:05back. When you properly identify the true bottleneck and actually optimize it, your
2:36:10productivity goes through the roof, it becomes wildly leveraged.
2:36:13That's the core of the Theory of Constraints. Find the bottleneck,
2:36:17optimize it, subordinate the system, and your throughput skyrockets. That's
2:36:22super cool... So Marcos Duda and Dércio actually taught you this? Like,
2:36:26walked you through it? Yeah, Dércio de Oliveira. I
2:36:28learned it from them. I mean, some scholar
2:36:31pioneered the concept, but I can't remember who.
2:36:33It's actually from a book called "The Goal". It'll pop up on screen for you
2:36:37guys. It's a classic, pretty old-school management book, man. Honestly, I'm kind
2:36:41of surprised you brought that framework up. Have you actually read that book?
2:36:44I have. Not a ton of people know about it since it's a bit older, but it's an
2:36:48incredible read. And look, man, I've spent a lot of time chewing on this whole
2:36:52theory of constraints, and the conclusion I landed on is that every business only
2:36:56has one true constraint.
2:36:57You know what it is? It's the founder. The entrepreneur is the ultimate ceiling
2:37:02of the business. Like, if we yanked you out of your company right now and swapped
2:37:06in some absolute killer, like Elon Musk, I guarantee your revenue would skyrocket,
2:37:11because the main thing capping your company's growth right now is, well,
2:37:15basically you. Makes sense? Like, it's you and
2:37:17Diandra. It's the scope of your ideas, your personal
2:37:20capacity to execute on what actually moves the needle. If we pulled you out
2:37:24and dropped in a rookie who doesn't know the ropes—like Gabe over there, right
2:37:29Gabe? Put him in charge and it'd be a total disaster, purely from lack of
2:37:33experience Yeah. So that's how I eventually built
2:37:35out this mental model, 'cause your sheer ability
2:37:37to spot those bottlenecks in the first place,
2:37:40entirely depends on your own headspace.
2:37:41And if you lack the operational awareness to even spot those bottlenecks to begin
2:37:45with, then congratulations, you are the bottleneck. Crazy to think about, right?
2:37:50I mean, that's a good way to think about it. But that sits at a macro level,
2:37:54right? I mean, there's always going to be one bottleneck, like, one real bottleneck
2:37:59that unlocks the absolute biggest move in your business. And look, this was
2:38:03something we had to learn the hard way.
2:38:05Every company is going to have inefficiency, it's going to have a
2:38:09bottleneck. The question is, where do you want that bottleneck to be? And there are
2:38:12multiple ones, even. But there's a biggest one. Right - There's THE inefficiency.
2:38:16Like, do you want your bottleneck in customer support, or in your sales team?
2:38:20Support, man, obviously. Like, support, for sure. Why? Because a
2:38:24bottleneck in the sales team is extremely dangerous.
2:38:28So tolerating inefficiency was maybe one of the most important skills I developed,
2:38:32especially over this past year, building a company the size of ours. You know?
2:38:37There's always going to be inefficiency. Got it?
2:38:40Yeah, man. And this is actually a really interesting way to know what to do inside
2:38:44your company, to think about strategic direction. Funny enough, man, that's
2:38:48exactly how I think today, you know?
2:38:50I mean, my mental model for company growth is exactly what you just described
2:38:55with the bottleneck, right? Because a lot of the time, people ask themselves,
2:38:59"What do I do to grow?" But it's actually way easier to use the law of inversion
2:39:04and ask, "Why isn't my company growing?" And that's where you'll find the true
2:39:08bottleneck, you know?
2:39:10And once you solve that bottleneck, you unlock
2:39:12a new level of growth. Which unlocks a new
2:39:14bottleneck. Exactly. Then you solve that new
2:39:17bottleneck. Why isn't my company growing?
2:39:19Look, today I do a million a month, cool. Why
2:39:22not two? Well, because my VSL isn't converting.
2:39:25Or because I don't have traffic. Or because
2:39:27I do have traffic, the VSL converts, but my AOV is too low at the end.
2:39:32Alright, so which one am I going to fix? What's the main one? Is it traffic? Maybe
2:39:36I need more ad accounts? Maybe I need more creatives
2:39:39here so I can find new slices of the audience?
2:39:42Maybe I've got plenty of creatives, solid ad accounts, the VSL is profitable, but
2:39:47people aren't swiping for high-ticket. So let's introduce an upsell. Boom, now I
2:39:51drive up AOV and unlock a new level of scale. I reinvest heavier into ads, my
2:39:56AOV stays healthy, and now I'm doing three million a month.
2:40:00So, what's the bottleneck now? Now I need more ad accounts, 'cause traffic is capped.
2:40:05Or maybe traffic's fine, but AOV is the ceiling again. So dude, just plug a
2:40:10high-end mentorship to push it higher.
2:40:12So that's a powerful framework for growing a business. Instead of asking,
2:40:16"What am I going to do?", you ask, "Why am I not growing?" You flip it around,
2:40:20and then you fix that bottleneck. Yeah, a bottleneck will
2:40:23always exist in your ops. But the thing is - let's say,
2:40:26My VSL isn't converting. It's choking front-end acquisition, right?
2:40:30Think about it. It's much easier to raise your promise level, maybe put out a
2:40:35stronger offer, and have that end up creating a ton of support work, you know?
2:40:39But honestly, I'd much rather have my VSL be a little more aggressive and sell way
2:40:44more, than keep support nice and easy. The bottleneck just moved somewhere else,
2:40:48right? So when we talk about product, it's exactly this.
2:40:52I find the bottleneck, I remove the friction, and where does it go? Like, It
2:40:56has to sit wherever it matters least at that moment. So that's the framework I
2:41:01use to build products, right?
2:41:02Like, anyone can build a product. But
2:41:05nailing ops efficiency is a different beast.
2:41:07And with AI on top of that, man... look, once you have that core ops flow actually
2:41:13built out, then you can implement AI, right? But I'm completely against this
2:41:18fear-mongering trend of, 'Oh, let's replace everybody, let's just hire AI
2:41:22agents and run a one-person business.' Man, I'm totally against that.
2:41:27I think that's still very far from our reality. I know a lot of big founders—AI
2:41:31guys running companies doing a hundred, two hundred million a year—who say
2:41:36exactly that. It's just fear-mongering, the hype thing to say. But we use AI
2:41:40strictly for ops efficiency. How do we automate delivery? How do we map what's
2:41:45actually happening inside a mentorship, for example?
2:41:48All that is ops efficiency - and again, I get a scalable product, I can pay more
2:41:52per customer, and it's a massive competitive
2:41:56edge. Absolutely. Very good, man.
2:41:58Man, I had no idea you had so many backend products. You’ve created a whole
2:42:02bunch of them. How many products do you have in total?
2:42:06Man, no, in our front-end funnel, we have around five products, okay? If you count
2:42:10the order bump and the upsell, there are about five products in total.
2:42:13But in your case, you have the VSL product and the products that come from
2:42:17it, which are the order bumps and upsells. So you have the main product,
2:42:20plus the order bump and the upsell.
2:42:22Yeah, it’s about five, roughly five or six products in our front-end product line.
2:42:27We have another method product I mentioned, and we also have the old
2:42:30coaching program, right? We have... These
2:42:32are the back-ends now. Those are the backend
2:42:35products now, right? We have the method product, the
2:42:38old coaching program, and the done-for-you service. We’re also building
2:42:42two more products so we can serve different types of audiences in different
2:42:47ways, okay? Because you guys have a lot of
2:42:49different front-end audiences coming in, and they
2:42:50have different needs. That’s why you’re creating these additional products.
2:42:54Yeah, exactly. Both in terms of the audience’s needs and desires, and also in
2:42:57terms of the actual price point, right? You can filter your audience based on how
2:43:01much they’re willing to pay. So the idea is to fill the gaps that exist across the
2:43:05different price points, so we can offer our solution to every segment of the
2:43:09population that wants it, obviously, and make sure there’s an offer that fits what
2:43:13they’re willing to invest.
2:43:14I get it. So basically, you maximize the profit you can generate from that
2:43:18traffic, which makes total sense. That’s really good. Exactly. The
2:43:21more places people have to go, the higher your level of ascension,
2:43:24you know? But again, this is something you build gradually over time. You can’t
2:43:28just go crazy and start building a bunch of products without a plan, because it
2:43:32won’t make sense in the long run, you know? The inefficiency will be way too
2:43:35high. One at a time. Test it, validate it, grow. Test, validate, build. Test,
2:43:38validate, build. And that’s how you gradually build your product line, step
2:43:42by step, without creating unnecessary inefficiency. Good, awesome.
2:43:45Man, with these products, okay? We’re seeing this whole wave of
2:43:48people moving toward this model that you’re building right now, and it seems
2:43:52like more and more people are starting to follow this approach...
2:43:55And here’s another idea I’d give you, man. I don’t know if you’d find it
2:43:58interesting, but even on this VTurb podcast, I think this could be really
2:44:02valuable, okay? You could sell programs, like coaching programs for people in the
2:44:06infoproduct space, teaching this whole model we’re talking about right now,
2:44:09okay, guys? So that’s an idea for you. I know you don’t normally do that, but,
2:44:13actually, you do that, right? Do what?
2:44:15Sell coaching programs that help people apply
2:44:17your business model to their own businesses.
2:44:19VSL on the front with back-end?
2:44:21I haven’t sold that yet. We were actually talking about it yesterday, because it’s
2:44:24a really strong pain point, right? I see very few people, and honestly, I don’t
2:44:28think there are any, who can handle both front-end scale through direct traffic
2:44:31and content, while also having a solid product structure. I’ve never seen anyone
2:44:35do all of that. There are people who do it,
2:44:37okay? But I don’t think there’s anyone actually
2:44:39selling this as a service. And so, guys, what’s really working the most in the
2:44:43market today? What’s getting the best results right now?
2:44:462026, and probably 2027 too. If you want to make a profit, not revenue, to
2:44:49actually make money with infoproducts, I’m talking money in your pocket, okay?
2:44:53If you want revenue, go do nutraceuticals overseas. Go sell over there. There’s no
2:44:58way you can compete, man. Those guys make a ton of revenue. They make a ton, a ton,
2:45:02a ton. It’s good for getting those plaques, right? The plaque is cool, you take a
2:45:05picture with it and all that. Yeah, the guy’s
2:45:07gonna end up with a lot of plaques, but...
2:45:09VTurb plaque. Yeah, not so much with VTurb, because overseas it’s really difficult. The
2:45:14traffic is so expensive, right? The CPC over there is like ten reais, I don’t
2:45:17know. It’s kind of insane, so it makes things difficult.
2:45:20If the guy got that overseas, he’d made a lot of money. The people getting those
2:45:24plaques are you guys in the infoproduct market
2:45:26in Brazil, or Info Latam, which... Latam is also
2:45:28very cheap. It’s really cheap too, right? So the
2:45:31guy goes for it. But when it comes to profit,
2:45:33man, without a doubt, the biggest opportunity right now is this whole thing.
2:45:36And there aren’t many people teaching this, okay? This whole idea of, “I’m
2:45:40gonna put a VSL on the front end with a backend funnel and content production.”
2:45:43That kind of implementation basically doesn’t exist, and there’s actually a lot
2:45:47of demand for it. That’s why I invited you, you know, so we could talk about this.
2:45:51Cool. Actually, if you guys want, click the link in the... I'm kidding.
2:45:54Guys, look, Braz’s Instagram is gonna show up on the screen, okay? Just type in
2:45:58VTurb, and if you want, you can set up some kind of automation, man. Because if
2:46:02you say, “At the end, I’m gonna send people to your Instagram to talk to you,”
2:46:06you could end up getting overwhelmed, because maybe a lot of people are gonna
2:46:10send you messages, right?
2:46:11You can send them. I have an SDR team there, they’ll book the call, we’ll, I’m
2:46:14kidding. No, but you can message me there, you should, you know? Let’s see,
2:46:17maybe I’ll build a solution like that. Alright, man. So,
2:46:19look, Braz’s Instagram is gonna show up on the screen, okay?
2:46:22First, type in VTurb and see if he set up any automation. I’m telling you this so
2:46:25you can see how this automation thing works, because a lot of people come to
2:46:28VTurb, message us on Instagram, and regret it, because then they get messages
2:46:32like, “Hey, how are you? What’s up? I don’t know what,” and they keep getting
2:46:35traffic for a long time, okay?
2:46:36VTurb, send the people over there to the call,
2:46:38okay? You can go ahead and test VTurb out.
2:46:41Yeah, but you know what works best, right? See if the automation is working,
2:46:44and if it’s not, go for it. You can test VTurb, it’ll be there, okay?
2:46:48Good. So, man, there are a lot of people doing this right now, and there’s a
2:46:52really strong demand for it.
2:46:54And I wanted you to tell me this: out of all those backend products you have,
2:46:58okay? The people watching at home are probably already creating content, and
2:47:02they probably already have some knowledge of how to make a VSL, which we’ve already
2:47:06covered here. But if they had to choose just one single product to put into the
2:47:10backend, what would you recommend as the product that would maximize their profit
2:47:14and generate the most revenue overall for the business?
2:47:18And then, obviously. This guy already has a product on the front end, right? He
2:47:21already has the VSL. He has the VSL on the front end, he already has the content
2:47:25working, and now he’s building out that backend. So far, what I see working
2:47:29really well is the webinar.
2:47:31The guy just adds the webinar there, and then you can have a weekly webinar or
2:47:35even a daily webinar. And that’s what maximizes the profit, not because the
2:47:38price point is necessarily that high, but because you’re multiplying the ticket by
2:47:42the volume of sales. So there are a lot of them,
2:47:44selling at a solid price point. That’s where the
2:47:47profit from the webinar actually comes from. In fact, Elida Dias, whose podcast
2:47:51is gonna show up on the screen, makes seven figures, sometimes even multiple
2:47:55seven figures, with this structure, man.
2:47:57Her funnel is this, it doesn't have the Done For You, whatever that is, or the
2:48:00high-end offer at one billion reais.
2:48:03Man, it’s a VSL on the front end, a webinar on the backend, a daily webinar,
2:48:07and boom. With everything you know now, man, after building this company, with
2:48:11high margins, multiple teams working on the backend, and so many different
2:48:15touchpoints with the customer, what do you think is the 80/20 when it comes to
2:48:20this backend monetization?
2:48:21If you were to rebuild your business at Diandra from scratch today, what would
2:48:25you do first with the main goal of maximizing profit, actual money in your
2:48:28pocket, rather than simply maximizing revenue?
2:48:30Based on everything you know now, what would you do?
2:48:33It depends on the size of the company you’re at and where you want to go.
2:48:36Again, the first step for someone creating a product and starting this
2:48:39level of ascension is understanding how much I’m actually willing to invest in
2:48:43it: time, money, resources, and energy.
2:48:45So, if you have a smaller team and you don’t want to increase the complexity of
2:48:49the business, I’d go with a product where the delivery can work almost entirely
2:48:54automatically. So maybe a course, a technology product, an automated service,
2:48:58a tool, or something like that, something that could scale without necessarily
2:49:02requiring you to keep expanding the team
2:49:04and adding more complexity to the operation.
2:49:06Braz, I have a team, I want to have a more robust team, I want to charge a
2:49:10little more, increase my margin, but I don’t have the structure for that. Man,
2:49:13I’d go with a product that’s kind of like a coaching program, okay? An acceleration
2:49:16program where you work with the person on the
2:49:18next step they need to take in their product line.
2:49:20But either way, at first, I’d use a webinar structure combined with a sales
2:49:24team. That would be the ideal scenario for me, you know? So you build the
2:49:27webinar, because you can automate the entire webinar process, right? Then from
2:49:31that webinar, you send people to an application, and from there you decide
2:49:34whether you’re going to sell the fifteen-thousand, ten-thousand, or
2:49:37five-thousand-reais product, depending on what makes the most sense for that person.
2:49:41And then you have this structure, okay? Obviously, the more expensive your
2:49:45product is, the more substantial the delivery needs to be, right? Not
2:49:48necessarily in terms of how many people are involved, but in terms of the results
2:49:51you deliver. And that’s what you need to think about, okay? Again, the webinar
2:49:55funnel is one of the best funnels. Why? Because you can automate it, okay? If you
2:49:58create a good webinar, you leave it running, and
2:50:01it keeps flowing every single week, you know?
2:50:03And then, back here, your role is to sell. So it depends a lot on your
2:50:06structure, right? For example, for us, we created the coaching program because it
2:50:09was much easier to generate results for the customer, it was a higher-ticket
2:50:12offer, and the margin was high, so it made a lot of sense for our business.
2:50:16After we improved the team, we built something a little more automated and a
2:50:19little more robust that runs weekly, and we run both of them in parallel, you
2:50:23know? So what’s the important point here? It
2:50:25really depends on where you are in your business.
2:50:27You know? It’s that thing, right? I was, I, no, I’m not gonna say the phrase I was
2:50:31about to say. Actually, I’m gonna say it, because I heard this phrase one day, and
2:50:35it’s pretty ugly, okay? It’s not a nice phrase. I heard it while I was playing
2:50:38soccer in Guarulhos. It was the coach there in Guarulhos who said it one day,
2:50:42and I never... Let's see if Diandra approves, look over there.
2:50:44I never forgot that phrase. She’s heard it before. The phrase goes like this: “If
2:50:48you’re afraid to shit, don’t eat.” You know? If you’re not gonna be able to
2:50:52deliver what you’re promising, then don’t get into the business in the first place.
2:50:56You know? Does that make sense or not? It’s
2:50:58pretty straightforward when you think about it.
2:51:00So good, dude. That’s it. You have to understand
2:51:03how much you can handle, you know? Where you
2:51:05want to go. What result do you want? You
2:51:07know? If you're afraid to shit, you don't eat.
2:51:09You have to be able to deliver. Damn, absolutely. Man, assuming we’re talking
2:51:13about the webinar, okay? How did you learn how to create a good webinar, and
2:51:16what should people focus on if they want to build a webinar that actually works
2:51:20and delivers results?
2:51:21I know you’re a copywriter, and, man, you have that instinct we talked about at the
2:51:26beginning of the podcast. And you know Jason Fladlien, right? Have you ever
2:51:30heard of him before, or are you familiar
2:51:32with his work? Is that the webinar guy? Yeah,
2:51:34Did you know we have a VTurb podcast episode with him? I didn't know. Cool.
2:51:38It’s gonna show up on the screen, guys, okay? The podcast we did with Jason
2:51:42Fladlien. He’s a webinar expert, and he has a book called “One to Many,” which is
2:51:46also gonna show up on the screen. In it, he
2:51:48explains his framework for creating webinars.
2:51:51There’s also Russell Brunson’s book, “Expert Secrets,” which is also gonna
2:51:54show up on the screen. It has some webinar formulas in there as well. But I
2:51:58wanted to know from you, man, how did you actually learn? Was it mostly by doing
2:52:01it? Did you study any resources or anything like that?
2:52:05I wanted you to explain this webinar funnel to everyone, because like you
2:52:09said, it seems like a really interesting funnel for someone who wants to start
2:52:13monetizing their infoproduct and build that backend. So walk us through how it works.
2:52:17The main point, again, I’m gonna go back to the basics. The main thing you need to
2:52:21succeed in your sales process is to truly understand the concepts behind what
2:52:25you’re doing. When I wanted to learn webinars, I went straight to the roots of
2:52:28webinars, looking at where they were actually working around the world and
2:52:32understanding what was making them work.
2:52:34And then I went straight to Russell Brunson, who at the time, when I started
2:52:37studying webinars, was probably the most hyped guy in the space. It was Russell
2:52:41Brunson’s VSL structure, which he was running with a sales team back then, when
2:52:45he was basically the absolute best in the game. He was the man, you know? And he
2:52:48had a specific structure that you could follow, right?
2:52:51I don’t think it makes sense to get into the whole structure here, but the
2:52:54structure exists, right? So I took that structure. I didn’t know anything about
2:52:57webinars, I just knew it was somewhat similar to a VSL, right? Because the
2:53:01persuasion structure itself doesn’t change, it’s really just how you put the
2:53:04structure together. And from there, I started
2:53:06testing it, right? In the beginning, I got a lot of
2:53:08webinars wrong. I found it really difficult
2:53:10because a webinar has to feel like it’s happening live, right? There are some
2:53:14nuances to it. That’s why it’s good to do it live at first and keep testing until
2:53:18you find an optimal solution. Then you can record it, or just use the live
2:53:22version you already recorded, and that’s totally fine. So I went back to the roots
2:53:26of it to really learn how it worked.
2:53:28The webinar model I really like is Elton Wheeler’s, too. It’s not exactly a
2:53:32webinar structure from him, but his launch structure is really useful when
2:53:36you’re trying to structure a piece of copy. Does
2:53:39he teach that? Or did you reverse-engineer it?
2:53:42I reverse-engineered it, obviously. I went there, grabbed his transcript, and
2:53:45studied it to understand it, because it’s one of the biggest launch case studies in
2:53:49Brazil right now. Tom Wilder is a pretty big name in the space. And then... Why is
2:53:54that? How much revenue did he make? Some nine
2:53:56digits per year. I've seen this... the...
2:53:59He’s the guy who created Permission, you know? No,
2:54:02man, I've seen his face on Instagram, but...
2:54:04So I took his sales structure, understood why it worked, and mixed it with the
2:54:08things that work for me, you know? Then we built the structure, tested the first
2:54:12version, it worked, I improved the second one, and that worked too.
2:54:16I say, “Man, this is the model.” I recorded it, and it flows 100%, you know?
2:54:19It’s fully automated. So you have two options: either you automate the whole
2:54:23thing with AI and automations, or you keep running it manually every week, you
2:54:27know? It depends on your setup. Again, if you have a small team and limited
2:54:31technical knowledge, just do it manually. Create the groups manually, handle the
2:54:35lead capture manually, and even set up the API manually. That’s totally fine.
2:54:39If you have the structure, automate it and let it run, you know? I prefer
2:54:43weekly, but you can also do it daily or monthly. There are several different
2:54:46structures you can implement, you know?
2:54:48And then you just let it run smoothly. What’s really good is having a sales team
2:54:52ready to handle the leads that are constantly coming in. If you just let
2:54:55people buy directly, depending on your price point, it doesn’t always make
2:54:58sense. Your conversion rate is gonna be much higher if you have someone there to
2:55:01give the sales process that extra push, you know?
2:55:03That’s what we do today, after a lot of testing.
2:55:05Webinars are a lot of testing, you know? That's your answer.
2:55:10How do you know if the webinar is actually good when you’re testing it on
2:55:14the backend? Something is gonna sell, and you don’t have any traffic costs. So, in
2:55:18theory, every webinar is gonna be good, right? Because it’s gonna sell
2:55:22something... If you sell one, you're in the profit. Do you have some
2:55:25kind of metric, like, “I want the webinar to hit an X conversion
2:55:27rate to know it’s performing well”?
2:55:29Conversion. Conversion based on the people who are actually on the live,
2:55:32right? To optimize the webinar, I look at the number of people on the live versus
2:55:36the conversion rate. Why doesn’t it make sense to use leads? Because there are a
2:55:39lot of people who drop off along the way. When you compare the number of people who
2:55:43watched the webinar with the number of conversions, you can really analyze the
2:55:46copy of that webinar. You know? A higher conversion
2:55:50rate means your VSL, your copy, is better.
2:55:52And then you keep improving it, it is a continuous
2:55:55flow. Good. Man, I’ve already run a webinar
2:55:57on VTurb, and in theory, guys, the idea was
2:56:00to run it for cold traffic. But only in theory, because the reality is, I think
2:56:04we were already pretty well known by that point. So even though we were advertising
2:56:08to cold traffic, it ended up being at least warm traffic, simply because of the
2:56:12brand’s relevance and how familiar people already were with it.
2:56:16And the way I did it was by using Russell Brunson’s Perfect Webinar framework.
2:56:20Basically, you start by making a clear promise to the person about what you’re
2:56:24going to teach them. Then you explain how they can actually achieve that benefit,
2:56:28you give them three secrets, three tips that will help them get that benefit, and
2:56:32then you make the transition into the offer. So, “Today, I’m gonna teach you
2:56:36how to increase the conversion rate of your VSL.”
2:56:39How do you do that? You have to run A/B tests. So here are three: one, two,
2:56:43three. Want more? Here’s the offer.” That’s basically it, guys, over an hour
2:56:48and a half, two hours. Actually, is your webinar
2:56:51that long? One hour and a half, more or less.
2:56:53Yeah, it’s a longer funnel than a VSL funnel. So that’s basically what I did.
2:56:58But you know what was a really smart thing I did, and I want to share this
2:57:02with everyone watching? I always ran the webinar live. I never did a recorded
2:57:06webinar, okay? The plan was to record it later, after I had already done it live.
2:57:11And why did I do it live? Because I could look at the chat and see exactly how
2:57:15people were reacting at different points throughout the webinar. So when I said X,
2:57:19the guy had a reaction in the chat. Then I said Y, and there was another reaction
2:57:23in the chat, and I could track those responses as I went.
2:57:26Then I’d take the chat transcript from WebinarJam and go through the whole
2:57:29thing. I’d read it and see, “Okay, at this minute I said this, and at this
2:57:33other minute, I said that,” and so on. Then, whenever I found an objection
2:57:36coming up in the chat, I’d go back into the webinar and create a new slide
2:57:40specifically to address that objection. So I started the webinar I think I had...
2:57:44Infinite optimization. Yeah, I had 110 slides, and I think
2:57:48I got up to 260 after two, three months. Analytics. My God.
2:57:52Yeah, it got pretty crazy. I’d say something, and then the guy would always
2:57:56comment in the chat, “Man, João, but I don’t have this.” So I’d go back and add
2:57:59it to the webinar, and I’d say, “It’s still gonna work even if you don’t have
2:58:03that, because of this, this, and this.” So I’d just, boom, kill the objection
2:58:06right at the exact moment the guy was about to stop and think about
2:58:10it. Did you do it weekly? Every Thursday at 7 PM in the evening.
2:58:13Yeah, that guy is the optimization nut.
2:58:15Every Thursday at 7 PM, I’d run the webinar, collect all the feedback, redo
2:58:19the slides on Friday, and then run the lead-generation campaign throughout the
2:58:23entire week so I could come back and run the webinar again the following Thursday.
2:58:27And what was the goal of all this? I’d capture the leads on the opt-in page, and
2:58:31then on the thank-you page, there was a VSL with an offer for VTurb. And that
2:58:34page was converting at 5%, which was a pretty
2:58:37solid conversion rate for us at the time.
2:58:39So the money from the webinar was basically just used to put back into
2:58:43traffic and sell VTurb on the thank-you page after the lead capture. So my 80/20
2:58:47wasn’t about selling the infoproduct, I didn’t really care about that. My 80/20
2:58:51was selling VTurb through the lead capture. So I’d say this. A one time offer there.
2:58:55That was my offer. I’d say, “Man, for the webinar, we’re gonna need this tool,
2:58:58VTurb, so just sign up here.” And in the beginning, it was free.
2:59:02I’d say, “Sign up, it’s free,” and it converted at 0.5%. How crazy is that?
2:59:06Then I thought, “Damn, that can’t be right. Man, maybe I...” So I tested the
2:59:10headline and all that stuff.
2:59:12Then I talked to a friend of mine, Jonathan, and he said, “No, man, instead
2:59:16of making it free, charge 1 real, because then people will understand that they
2:59:20actually have to pay something.” I said, “Ah, that’s interesting, man.” So before,
2:59:25it was free for 14 days. Then I said, “Okay, now it’s gonna be 1 real.”
2:59:29Then I said, “Guys, it’s usually 97 reais, but I’m selling it for just 1
2:59:32reais.” And the conversion went from 0.5% to 5%. So that simple price change
2:59:36increased the conversion rate tenfold, you know? It was really interesting. But,
2:59:41man, a tip for everyone watching who wants to optimize a webinar, this is a
2:59:45good approach. You run it, collect feedback, and every week, you change one
2:59:48little thing or another. There will always be something to change.
2:59:52Yeah, in the beginning, I think it’s important to run these tests live, right?
2:59:55Until you get to the point where you say, “Man, this is the one that converted the
2:59:59best.” Obviously, if I had optimized it more, maybe it would have converted even
3:00:02better, but I preferred to automate it and just let it run. And once you find
3:00:05your winning copy, you’re good.
3:00:07Good. Man, I wanna know one last thing here, okay? Even though I understand your
3:00:12business model as a whole, I still wanna understand... how you guys are able
3:00:16to charge such high prices, man. You said you have a really high success rate when
3:00:20it comes to the solution you provide, right? Is that... like, what gives
3:00:24you the confidence to charge that much, because you know the solution is actually
3:00:28going to work for the customer?
3:00:31You mentioned, I think, that around 98% of the people are getting results from
3:00:35the high-ticket product, because that alone is pretty difficult, right? It’s
3:00:38already hard enough for us to create a really good product in the first place.
3:00:42And I think that’s really a pillar of your business, because if you have
3:00:46backend products, how are you gonna sell those more expensive offers if the
3:00:50products don’t actually work in the first place? You’re not gonna be able to earn
3:00:54the person’s trust, get them results, and ultimately convince them to buy another
3:00:59product from you later on or continue investing in your other offers down the
3:01:03road. So, yeah, that problem definitely exists.
3:01:05So tell me, man, how did you actually go about creating a really good product, and
3:01:09what did you do to make sure it truly works in practice?
3:01:12Yeah, the first point you made that’s really important is that the product
3:01:16makes a huge difference if you want to build a company that lasts over time.
3:01:20So when you have a funnel and your only concern is selling, you’re basically just
3:01:24playing the game of making money. But when you care about the delivery, you
3:01:27care about making the sale, and you care about the results people are actually
3:01:31getting, then you truly have a real business, obviously with management,
3:01:34operations, and all those other things that come with running a company.
3:01:37So I see very few people paying attention to this, because a good product makes
3:01:42people refer you, move up your product line, and speak positively about you.
3:01:45That creates credibility in the market, which is an intangible asset that people
3:01:50often overlook. And then they end up doing things that damage that credibility
3:01:54without even realizing it’s affecting their conversion rate.
3:01:57So this is an extremely important point. We take the product very seriously here,
3:02:01and that’s one of our strengths as a company,
3:02:03especially when it comes to operational efficiency.
3:02:06But how do we actually do it today? We have a few core principles that we use,
3:02:10which we've built over time, you know? But our complete framework relies on
3:02:14positioning, content, and sales.
3:02:17Building a strong personal brand online today rests heavily on these three
3:02:20fundamental pillars. First is positioning. Positioning is essentially
3:02:24the exact territory that you want to occupy inside people's minds, right? So
3:02:27think about it, there are tons of doctors out there today, but how exactly can you
3:02:31differentiate yourself?
3:02:33Because the moment you manage to stand out and own a unique space that belongs
3:02:36exclusively to you in a person's mind, you stop competing on price, you stop
3:02:39attracting difficult clients, you stop dealing with people asking for discounts,
3:02:43and you can charge significantly higher prices. Why? Because if your positioning
3:02:46is rock solid, you become one of the very few people who do that in their eyes, so
3:02:50you can charge whatever you want.
3:02:51Obviously, within the boundaries of everyday common sense, right? So
3:02:55that is precisely what strategic positioning is designed for, right? How
3:02:59can I differentiate you so that you can boost your margins, scale your sales, and
3:03:03turn you into a recognized authority.
3:03:05So today we break down positioning into a few key pillars, but I believe the most
3:03:09essential ones for people watching at home to understand in order to build
3:03:13great positioning is a clear framework consisting of internal vision, external
3:03:17vision, and market vision, right?
3:03:19What does that actually mean in practice? You're going to gather specific market
3:03:22insights, aggregate them together, and construct your positioning.
3:03:25Positioning—this is an important point to emphasize—positioning to me isn't taking
3:03:29a nice picture for Instagram. Positioning isn't about scheduling a professional
3:03:33photoshoot or having a clean feed. Sure, that plays a small role, but that's not
3:03:36what it's really about. Positioning means being truly relevant to the people who
3:03:40actually matter. And who matters?
3:03:42The ones who afford your services. So the main objective of this framework is
3:03:45figuring out how you can tap into this specific leverage point and build the
3:03:49strongest possible foundation of authority.
3:03:51Internal vision: you're going to conduct a deep audit of yourself, understanding
3:03:55what you perform significantly better than everyone else, where you feel most
3:03:58competent executing and driving real results for your clients. So it really
3:04:02comes down to what you excel at doing. It's a self-assessment that you perform
3:04:05on yourself, listing your strengths and extracting
3:04:08key data. External vision: what do you do next?
3:04:10You're going to reach out directly to your top clients and ask them those exact
3:04:13same questions. What do you believe I do better than anyone else? How did I
3:04:16transform your life? What were the key deciding
3:04:18factors that made you choose to work with me?
3:04:20These are specific questions you ask your client to gather valuable qualitative
3:04:23data. And market vision: you're going to look at your primary competitors and
3:04:26analyze the exact same details. What is their core strength? What is their unique
3:04:30value proposition? What offers are they running? Because that allows you to gain
3:04:33a comprehensive understanding of where the market currently stands.
3:04:36When you synthesize internal vision, external vision, and market vision, right
3:04:39in the center of all that lies your unique positioning, you see? And that is
3:04:43what enables you to claim a distinct space that
3:04:46is entirely your own across the internet, right?
3:04:48So from the moment we pinpoint that, we're able to establish a powerful and
3:04:52crystal-clear competitive advantage, right? And a differentiator isn't having
3:04:56some super over-the-top gimmick, a differentiator isn't... well, I see
3:04:59this all the time, right? A doctor, for example, invents a basic procedure and
3:05:03calls it the "Skin Age Method," you know?
3:05:05That's not a real differentiator, not at all.
3:05:08Simply naming a method isn't a differentiator. A real differentiator is
3:05:11being able to analyze these three perspectives and clearly define your
3:05:14stance. Alright, positioning established, now we move straight into the content
3:05:17strategy, because having great positioning means nothing if you don't
3:05:21actively distribute it. I see this massive bottleneck in so many companies
3:05:24that build positioning. Great, I have an incredible positioning statement, but how
3:05:27does that actually get in front of real people?
3:05:30How do I actually monetize this positioning?
3:05:32You have to get in front of brand new audiences, you have to get your core
3:05:35message out to far more people. So we go in and build an end-to-end content
3:05:39ecosystem. The first point I mentioned regarding content directly ties back to
3:05:43what I consider the absolute core element of the three content pillars. A winning
3:05:47idea must be a high-volume trending topic, an acute pain point in the niche,
3:05:51or a universal human problem, which I've
3:05:54already broken down and don't need to repeat.
3:05:56And the moment you secure a high-performing concept, you move
3:05:59straight into scripting the video, right?
3:06:01As I said, there are several precise steps that we have engineered, but to
3:06:05keep it simple for everyone watching at home, once you have a compelling idea,
3:06:09you definitely need a strong hook. A hook—tons of guests talk about hooks here
3:06:13on the podcast, so viewers can check those out, but essentially a hook needs
3:06:17to be counterintuitive, open a deep curiosity loop in the viewer's mind, and
3:06:21above all, present a fresh perspective.
3:06:23What is the single biggest issue I see with most people's hooks when creating
3:06:27content? They deliver the punchline or solution way too early in the video, you
3:06:30know? They reveal such a valuable piece of information right in the hook that
3:06:34viewers have zero reason to stick around for the rest of the video, which is one
3:06:37of the most common mistakes we spot. So the hook must systematically open an
3:06:40unresolved loop in the viewer's mind. Alright...
3:06:43Once the hook is structured, you move directly into amplifying the specific
3:06:47pain point you established in that hook, right?
3:06:49In practice, let's say that you're a doctor and you are trying to sell—let's
3:06:54say orthopedic treatments, just to use a quick example. You script a hook like,
3:06:58"Three things I, as a doctor, completely stopped doing after learning what sitting
3:07:03in a chair actually does to my spine."
3:07:06Just a broad example off the very top of my head.
3:07:08I'm making this up on the spot now. And then you transition straight into
3:07:12amplifying that pain. "So if you have a family or experience any back discomfort,
3:07:16it's critical that you pay close attention to this video, because ignoring
3:07:19it could easily cost you years of healthy mobility."
3:07:22Again, I'm improvising this script, alright?
3:07:24Right after the amplification phase, we jump straight into the actual content. So
3:07:28since I promised three things, I deliver those
3:07:30three exact points, so we deliver the core value.
3:07:32The core content generally falls into two primary categories: either a structured
3:07:36listicle format—item one, item two, item three—or a strong opinion piece where you
3:07:40take a definitive stance backed by your positioning, right? For beginners, I
3:07:43strongly recommend sticking to the listicle format because it dramatically
3:07:47increases viewer retention. When you tell people you have three key tips, they
3:07:50naturally stick around to hear the third one.
3:07:53So it boosts video retention, which is extremely helpful if you aren't a
3:07:56naturally gifted speaker yet. Once you deliver the core content, again, that
3:07:59content must be valuable and actionable, effectively moving the viewer from Point
3:08:03A to Point B. If you state obvious facts, people won't interact, won't like, won't
3:08:07share, and the algorithm won't push that content to broader audiences, you see?
3:08:10So it must generate real lightbulb moments.
3:08:13Once the content has been covered, you move on to the transition part.
3:08:16The transition, essentially, in almost all the content we produce—since our
3:08:20primary goal is driving actual sales and generating high conversions—we pair with
3:08:25direct response calls to action. So the
3:08:28transition is precisely the bridge line that
3:08:32anchors the pitch segment. In practice, how would that example sound? "Tip number
3:08:36one: never sit with your legs crossed under you.
3:08:39Tip two: never stay seated over five hours,"
3:08:41my two examples. "Tip three: blah blah.
3:08:43And where I see this exact issue occurring most frequently is among
3:08:46professionals who spend their entire day working at a desk." That right there is
3:08:49your transition, because they don't even realize they've been sitting for far too
3:08:53long and end up discovering their severe condition way too late.
3:08:56Okay, now we move directly into the CTA segment, right? And that's where you
3:08:59start transitioning into the actual pitch, introducing your specific
3:09:03solution. "And where I see this happening most is with highly successful business
3:09:07executives who don't realize the damage being done while sitting and end up
3:09:10developing severe herniated discs or other chronic issues.
3:09:13Hi, my name is John Doe, or let's say my name is Braz Cardoso, I've been a
3:09:17practicing orthopedist for over 13 years, and over the past several years I've
3:09:21helped people suffering from herniated discs—specifically caused by the poor
3:09:25seating setups they've used their whole lives—completely reverse their condition
3:09:29without any form of surgery.
3:09:30If you're dealing with this exact problem and want to discover the precise steps to
3:09:34fix it, type 'Lower back' in the comments below, and I'll send a direct message
3:09:37detailing your action plan." A direct call to action linked with ManyChat, and
3:09:41the prospect takes action, see? So the positioning was clearly defined
3:09:44beforehand—obviously, you must establish solid positioning prior to publishing
3:09:47content. Once positioning is locked in, you apply this exact scripting structure,
3:09:51and then you seamlessly transition into acquisition and sales.
3:09:54Why is this framework so powerful? Because it allows us to extract a
3:09:57person's unique core advantage and translate that advantage into a
3:10:01high-converting message reaching massive audiences. For instance, take Martha,
3:10:04right? One of our top flagship case studies, Martha Leonardis, who teaches
3:10:08networking and executive positioning.
3:10:10We deployed this exact same content architecture for her, and within just
3:10:13three months, she gained well over one million highly engaged followers. And
3:10:17we're talking extremely qualified followers, right? We conducted our
3:10:21initial diagnostic with her, and during those three months, she generated over—I
3:10:25believe well over 12,000 direct leads, right?
3:10:27High-quality leads, since she sells a 180,000 product. I think it's higher now.
3:10:31Yeah dude, it's an executive group with direct access to her network, you know?
3:10:37And out of all the leads who signed up, 15%—I think 15 to 20%—were MQLs. What's
3:10:41an MQL for her? People making over 80,000 a
3:10:44month, if I recall correctly, something like that.
3:10:47Just look at the sheer leverage of strategic content, right? We built out
3:10:50her end-to-end positioning, engineered her core content structure, and from that
3:10:53point on, she started generating an endless stream of ultra-qualified leads
3:10:56for her enterprise. That is precisely what we execute. We engineer a complete
3:11:00positioning and content architecture, while also optimizing their sales
3:11:03process, enabling clients to drive massive
3:11:05qualified demand through purely organic channels.
3:11:07So all these clients, many of them simply record using their mobile phones,
3:11:10adhering strictly to the positioning framework and content structure, and they
3:11:14scale rapidly. We have doctors generating over 5 million organic views within their
3:11:18first two to three months, you know? Every single month.
3:11:21It's insane, right? Take Tiago Rassi, for example—one of our most recent success
3:11:25cases who onboarded. Man, he hits over a million views per video, it's wild. All
3:11:29by executing this exact blueprint.
3:11:31We work with doctors, lawyers, public speakers, high-level communicators. And
3:11:35this applies both to our core done-for-you service, where we build and
3:11:38execute this entire architecture for the client, and to our accelerator programs,
3:11:42where we guide them step-by-step through
3:11:44implementing the framework themselves, you see?
3:11:47So the moment we have this battle-tested structure and validated methodology in
3:11:51place, we achieve incredible operational efficiency and generate a massive volume
3:11:55of success stories. Our NPS is sky-high, and our overall success rate, as I
3:11:59mentioned, is exceptionally high.
3:12:02That's the main point, because we aren't just an agency that sells, sells, sells.
3:12:05Because we prioritize product quality above everything else today, I have
3:12:08absolute clarity in my mind that we fundamentally transform businesses and
3:12:11scale revenues using our expertise, allowing clients to establish commanding
3:12:14authority, premium market relevance, charge significantly higher prices for
3:12:17their core products, and distribute their brand image to millions of people
3:12:21monthly, right? Hundreds of thousands, even millions of impressions every single month.
3:12:25So by following this streamlined structure, which is meticulously
3:12:28process-driven to eliminate friction, we can consistently generate massive demand
3:12:32for our clients, you see? So we managed to seamlessly connect all the dots together.
3:12:37A huge portion comes from positioning—Diana is exceptional at
3:12:40positioning—so we took that brand foundation, merged it with our deep
3:12:43background in direct response copywriting, and built a robust system
3:12:46for establishing a powerful personal brand that drives measurable demand. What
3:12:49fails to qualify as a real personal brand, in my opinion? A personal brand
3:12:52isn't just having a sleek logo or an aesthetically pleasing Instagram grid.
3:12:56A real personal brand means building an entity that holds genuine market
3:12:59authority across the digital landscape, you know? So we combined a high-equity
3:13:02brand mindset with a ruthless performance marketing execution to build this
3:13:06high-converting delivery ecosystem. Does that make sense?
3:13:10Man, that sounds pretty complex. But it really is
3:13:12complex. That's the entire point. The magic is taking a
3:13:15highly complex methodology and simplifying it so our operations team can
3:13:18flawlessly deliver it, and clients can predictably generate massive results, you
3:13:21see? So inside our mentorship program—or our acceleration program, as we call it
3:13:25now—we have a systematic process to guide clients step-by-step through developing
3:13:28this, and again, they get incredible results.
3:13:31And in our done-for-you service, where we step in and build this structure directly
3:13:34for them, we implement everything, allowing us to strictly control
3:13:37operational variables, you see? By executing all these strategic layers, we
3:13:40can still drive remarkably fast results, right? That's why I always say, organic
3:13:43content is a powerhouse when you treat it as a core customer acquisition channel
3:13:47for your business, you see? Got it 100%...
3:13:52so...uh, wait, let me see if I got this right, okay?
3:13:56To wrap it up, you basically took... actually, you identified
3:14:00everything a person needs to do to get results based on your core promise...
3:14:04which in this case is building a powerhouse personal brand online, right?
3:14:10and then you merged those two...
3:14:14I mean, those two pillars, Diandra and yourself, you combined into this
3:14:18framework: positioning, sales, and content.
3:14:22And then you created this truly scalable methodology that delivers consistent
3:14:26outcomes, making it delegable so you can scale operations, bringing on a
3:14:30high-performing team to assist with execution. And through that exact setup,
3:14:34you built a high-ticket program where you can command premium prices and construct
3:14:38a high-converting backend.
3:14:40It's precisely because I deliver great results, I can charge high prices, you see?
3:14:44So today, whenever I speak with a prospective client, or when my sales team
3:14:47conducts a call, they are thoroughly briefed. Man, we have the power to
3:14:50transform this client's enterprise, you know? So the mindset is locked in, the
3:14:53sales posture is authority-driven, and that's why I charge top-dollar. You know
3:14:56the demand I generate for their business. If they have a solid sales team in place,
3:15:00man, they close an absurd volume of deals, you
3:15:02see? Do you think that's easily replicable?
3:15:04I mean, can people watching at home actually... like, build such a
3:15:08high-ticket offer using just their existing knowledge?
3:15:11Or do they need consulting, learn specialized skills first? As I said, this
3:15:15system sounds pretty complex, right? You had to bring two world-class specialists
3:15:19together, merging Diandra's expertise with yours to build this beast.
3:15:24Yeah, I believe the price you can command for your offer directly correlates with
3:15:27the tangible financial output you predictably
3:15:30generate for your ideal client. Uh-huh.
3:15:31So if someone possesses a high-value, highly relevant solution for the market,
3:15:36and depending on the level of customized execution you can build into that offer,
3:15:40man, I see zero reason why you shouldn't charge premium rates. In fact, as I
3:15:44mentioned, we're currently in a market environment where clients actively demand
3:15:48bespoke, highly tailored solutions due to the
3:15:51widespread generalization caused by AI tools.
3:15:54So the timing is perfect, clients are actively seeking this level of value.
3:15:58We're living in a very unique era where consumer attention is fragmented across
3:16:02dozens of platforms, multiple communication
3:16:05channels—Instagram, TikTok, Netflix, you name it.
3:16:07That's why it's so critical when you can execute and deliver a solution for
3:16:11clients in a way that guarantees smooth operational delivery and tangible Roy.
3:16:15People want proven results today; they're exhausted from trying, testing, and
3:16:19failing repeatedly. That's precisely why you can charge premium fees. You see?
3:16:24Uh-huh, got it. Man, that's incredibly solid. So, listen up, everyone watching
3:16:28at home who sells high-ticket services—the more measurable output and
3:16:32revenue you generate for your clients, obviously, the higher your prices can go.
3:16:36And Braz just broke down the internal mechanics of their backend architecture,
3:16:41their high-end offer, and their growth accelerator program.
3:16:45So that's the elite operational standard you need to reach if you want to charge
3:16:49top-tier prices like Braz, especially considering those incredible client case
3:16:53studies he shared about doctors hitting millions of organic views. That's why
3:16:57this offer commands the valuation it does, right? So— yeah it's
3:17:00all about organic qualified demand generation at scale, right? So good, dude.
3:17:04And bro, tell me, what did you think of the podcast?
3:17:08Man, I really enjoyed it. I honestly thought we'd wrap up a bit faster, you
3:17:11know? But we packed in a massive amount of actionable insights. And honestly,
3:17:15there's so much more we could cover here—there's always more, yeah. But I
3:17:18think it delivered massive value to the audience. I think I broke everything down
3:17:21clearly so people can take even a tiny fraction of what I shared here, deploy it
3:17:24directly into their enterprise, and see a massive
3:17:27performance shift, generating real enterprise value.
3:17:29Yeah, the goal is for people to take one, two, maybe three tips if it's a good
3:17:33podcast, and apply them to their business. Man, without a doubt, I think
3:17:36they definitely got something out of it. If you picked up
3:17:39a game-changing strategy today, drop a comment down below
3:17:41detailing the exact framework you're going to execute in your business.
3:17:44Love it... and Bro, what's your exact Instagram handle again?
3:17:49Braz, B-R-A-Z-Z, Cardoso. Braz Cardoso. Braz is my real name—it's not the subway
3:17:54station, it's not the São Paulo neighborhood, and it's not Braz Cubas.
3:17:58It's Braz with a Z, and it's my name. Before anyone asks. Folks, his name is Braz spelled with a Z,
3:18:03okay? and the Instagram handle features double Zs, Braz Z-Z Cardoso, with an S. It has double Zs.
3:18:07Someone already took Braz with a Z, right? Yeah, he did. He did, right? Son of a gun. We need to go
3:18:11handle that guy, man. And there's the handle with an S as well. I tried reaching out to buy it from him,
3:18:16man, I sent multiple messages, but he just won't
3:18:18reply. man, either sell it or you're in trouble.
3:18:21Because this guy is strong. This guy is on another level, okay?
3:18:25280 kilos on the deadlift. 280 on the deadlift.
3:18:29Damn man, 280 kilos is absolute beast mode! Yeah, gotta push hard... Fuck off, man!
3:18:33How do you lift that, bro? That's like four or five soy boys, give or take, right?
3:18:40No, I'm not saying that. Ah, come on, say it. Absolutely not.
3:18:45No, I'm not going to repeat that. No way. I'm not even going to repeat
3:18:50what she said, end of story. I got canceled once already. Ah, that's good, I like that.
3:18:56Man... look... one last thing, but actually I want to wrap this up because
3:19:00we need to go play FIFA, bro! But... If you ask me, I'll give you a quick answer.
3:19:04So let me ask you, man. Does it make a huge difference? For example,
3:19:08you're lifting 100 kilos. Going from 100 to 200, is it the exact same feeling
3:19:13where you're just stronger, or does the force actually feel different, you
3:19:17know? It's different... It's different because in other exercises I can feel the
3:19:22difference, you know? Obviously, it's marginal. The higher I go, the harder it
3:19:26is to go up, you know? Going from 280 to 290 is tough, you get it? But I feel
3:19:31strong—so much so that when I go to Ironberg, the gym where I train in
3:19:34Alphaville, guys bigger than me don't lift the weight I lift.
3:19:38No fucking way, man, 280? Are you seriously out of your mind? Are you
3:19:42crazy, bro? That's just so much weight. Fuck off, man—I think that Anatoly guy
3:19:47pulls about that much, man. Yeah, he pulls somewhere around
3:19:50300-plus kilos. Man, I think—how much do you weigh? Around 100?
3:19:5495. And he weighs like 78! Yeah, his peak
3:19:56strength is way higher, I mean, he's so much
3:19:58stronger than me. He's insane, absolutely insane.
3:20:00But you're insanely impressive, man. Bro, I
3:20:02wanted to bring you to Ironberg just to cause absolute chaos with the
3:20:05bodybuilders there, man! They'd look over like: "Holy shit, look at João's friend
3:20:09bringing this absolute monster." Because those giant guys over there don't move
3:20:12that kind of iron, man. They just don't lift that heavy. it's
3:20:15hard. Being big is one thing, being strong is another, right?
3:20:18And that was a—well, a cool outlet I discovered to compete against myself,
3:20:21because I'm naturally intensely competitive, you know? I've played
3:20:24competitive sports my entire life—swimming, soccer, at a high level,
3:20:26you know? Swimming and soccer. But when I dove full-time into entrepreneurship, I
3:20:30couldn't sustain those schedules anymore; I didn't have the bandwidth to train
3:20:33soccer three times a week or travel for matches and all that.
3:20:36So in the gym, I found a place to compete with myself. So every time I lift heavier
3:20:40than before, or go through that process, it's a competition with myself.
3:20:43But do you train pure powerlifting routines? Like, you... Yeah,
3:20:46powerlifting. I used to train more seriously, now I don't, I just train to
3:20:49keep my strength, because it takes a lot out of the body. But what's your training
3:20:52like, is it five times a week, three? I currently train about four to five
3:20:55days per week. And is it a fixed daily routine, like full-body every session?
3:20:59No, my split is structured as a classic A, B, C, D, E routine. So I hit legs on
3:21:02one day, chest on the next, deadlifts and shoulders on another, followed by
3:21:06dedicated arm and back sessions. Nice... that's awesome bro.
3:21:11I was supposed to—today is Friday, right? Today was actually my scheduled deadlift
3:21:15day, but I ended up skipping it. And yesterday
3:21:17was Thursday, which was my arm day, and I
3:21:19missed that one too. Yesterday was Thursday,
3:21:20which was supposed to be—I don't even know what
3:21:22yesterday was, I was running around handling things. On Wednesdays I usually
3:21:25squat, but this week I slacked off, so I'll have to train Saturday and Sunday
3:21:28because demand has been crazy. So I just did a quick light cardio
3:21:31session. It's better than nothing, way better than nothing. Way better.
3:21:34Because there are three areas I actually work on, right, man? There's the heart
3:21:38part, that's cardio, mobility, so I can stay
3:21:40flexible and all that... and also the strength part.
3:21:44I work on all three of those too. It's important. That strength
3:21:47part is by far the one I do the most, even though it doesn't look
3:21:49like it, right, everyone? I know it doesn't show, because every now and then
3:21:53people ask me, "Hey, João, are you working out?" Man, I am. You guys
3:21:56just can't tell on camera, his arm's got to be like 50 centimeters
3:21:58around, at least. You see? Exactly, this camera
3:22:01of mine, it slims you down. Yeah. I noticed that.
3:22:04And people say stuff like, "João, you hitting the gym? Taking something?" And
3:22:07then I say, "Man, looking like this, the only thing I could be on is Mounjaro."
3:22:13Just Mounjaro and chikungunya, right? Yeah.
3:22:18But man... thanks so much for your time here, okay? Braz's Instagram is going to
3:22:22show up on screen one more time.
3:22:25And if you're at home watching us and you think Braz could help you out with
3:22:28something, go ahead and send him a message on Instagram.
3:22:31Type in "VTurb" and see if he's got some kind of automation for it.
3:22:34Or go check out Diandra's Instagram too, right?
3:22:37Yeah, go check out Diandra's too. What's
3:22:39your Instagram, by the way? Really? "@segueadi"
3:22:42Nice, that's really cool. Look at that, everyone, "@segueadi", Diandra's
3:22:46Instagram is about to show up right there on the screen.
3:22:49And you type in "VTurb" there, or just type "Hi." Anyway, in case you're
3:22:54interested in maybe buying something from her
3:22:56and becoming a real reference in your niche.
3:22:59And positioning yourself well, being able to scale your content, sell, and profit
3:23:03off of it. It's totally possible, and Braz even
3:23:06walked us through the method here today, right?
3:23:08So there's that possibility too, for sure. And man...
3:23:13I always end the podcast by having my guest send a message out to the VTurb audience.
3:23:18And you can send whatever kind of message you want. Some people talk about God,
3:23:21some people give a motivational message, some people reinforce the podcast's
3:23:25content. Look right into this camera here, and say something you think would
3:23:28be cool for everyone watching us. Let me say that phrase I mentioned earlier...
3:23:32That phrase is, "In a land of one-legged men, one pair of pants fits two." Take a
3:23:36second to really think about it. In a land of
3:23:39one-legged men... One pair of pants fits two.
3:23:42One pair of pants fits two...
3:23:45When there's not much to go around, anything will do, you know? I'm just
3:23:48joking, everyone. Obviously that's not really it. Yeah, I think the main point I
3:23:52wanted to bring here was... That phrase is just top tier.
3:23:58Man... What does the one-legged have to do with...
3:24:01Think about it. In a land of one-legged men...
3:24:05That phrase is peak sophistication, honestly.
3:24:08It's basically the Leonardo da Vinci of phrases.
3:24:12That one's the Mona Lisa.
3:24:13That phrase is like the Mona Lisa. So... I think the main point I wanted to bring
3:24:17here is that there are some really specific differences between having a
3:24:20funnel and actually having a company, you know? I wanted to share a few frameworks
3:24:23here that we use to scale with margin, with
3:24:25predictability, with an engaged team, and most importantly, with people actually
3:24:29getting results, right? So my whole point here is exactly that, don't just treat
3:24:33the sales side of things as your entire company. You have to think about the
3:24:36other end too, if you actually want a long-lasting business, a long-term one,
3:24:39you know? Yeah, I think that's the main point I wanted to bring here, and I think
3:24:43I managed to get it across. Nice.
3:24:47Alright everyone, that was another episode of the Scaling Secrets podcast.
3:24:51If you liked it, go ahead and follow Diandra,
3:24:53"@segueadi." If you enjoyed the podcast, go follow her.
3:24:56If you liked it, you already know, go follow Diandra. And also, okay, if you
3:25:00enjoyed this episode, besides following her, like I just said, I want to ask you
3:25:04for one more favor: Click on that arrow right
3:25:06here, look, there's an arrow down below, okay?
3:25:08They'll put some kind of graphic on screen, some arrow or whatever... I don't
3:25:11know. Just click that arrow, man, and share this podcast.
3:25:13Drop it in a networking group, a mastermind, send it to a friend,
3:25:16honestly, just send it to someone, because that's what helps the podcast
3:25:20grow, and then I'm able to bring on more people to interview here, and keep making
3:25:24this content, completely free, for you. So it's something that helps you out too,
3:25:28you know? When the channel grows. And if you're able to do that, I really
3:25:31appreciate it. And if you don't want to, hey, that's totally fine too, okay?
3:25:35You've really got to do it.
3:25:37Come on... Look how much time you've spent watching us already.
3:25:40It's free... Right, man? It's free. Doesn't cost a thing. Right, and
3:25:44if you're watching this right now, what does that actually mean? It
3:25:47means you got some kind of help from this.
3:25:50And, some other entrepreneur out there, just like you, could get helped by this
3:25:53content too. So share this video with someone. Click that little arrow right
3:25:56there. Share it with someone, it really helps us out a lot.
3:26:00Thank you for joining us and for taking the time to be here. Thank you, man.
3:26:03And thank you, Diandra. For you having... She was resilient. Yeah.
3:26:08She fought through it. That's real love right there. She
3:26:11was, that's true. She left home to eat potatoes with salt...
3:26:14Eating meat, come here and sit in the AC... even though it's not even that cold
3:26:18today... Well done. And, little detail, I'll tell you this, I've already recorded
3:26:22160 podcast episodes.
3:26:24There's maybe three, four women at most, who actually stick around, okay?
3:26:28Who make it through the whole podcast. Because it runs pretty long, you know.
3:26:32It's a really long time, almost four hours.
3:26:34How long have we actually been recording, Gab?
3:26:36It went by fast. Yeah. About three hours and 50 minutes.
3:26:40So, everyone, that's it. That was another episode of the Scaling Secrets podcast,
3:26:44which is VTurb's official podcast. See you next Tuesday at 5 p.m.
3:26:50Thanks for watching. See you soon. Thanks.
3:26:53Hey, thank you so much for watching another episode of Scaling Secrets. If
3:26:56you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to like it right here, and to subscribe to
3:27:00the VTurb channel, so you can get more episodes delivered straight to your inbox.
3:27:04That's really important to us. And if you do that, I guarantee you this:
3:27:07I'm going to bring on the best guests I can find, to bring you great content,
3:27:10alright? And if you're looking for more episodes to watch, I'm going to leave two
3:27:14episodes right here, okay? Somewhere on the
3:27:16screen, from Scaling Secrets, for you to check out.
3:27:18So click on those and watch those episodes too, they're worth it.
3:27:21Thanks for watching, and see you soon.

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